Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion (survey results @ post #303)

How is Houndstone in this tier? I see it being an interesting pick for a team due to Last Respects
Simply put Houndstone is flat out awful.
Last Respects isn't enough to warrant its usage, as not only are its stats absolutely pathetic, and its abilities both being near unapplicable, Ubers is much more equipped to simply tank a Max Power Last Respects than lower tiers can, and with how Last Respects behaves, you can't afford to come across Pokémon that can simply tank it and KO you back, which is something most if not all Ubers that aren't weak to Ghost are capable of.
 
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Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Recover
- Salt Cure

yes garga is a legit thing in ndubers. it exploits the meta being so full of physical attackers, the lack of offensive elec/grass types and the reliance on toxic to deal with fatmons of stuff like ho-oh and arcs to be really hard to kill, plus it resists pdon's special fire moves and is bulky enough to not get 2hkoed by an uninvested xern moonblast (so it lives a +2 xern moonblast) and can stall out thunder ogre if it comes in on a salt cure. speaking of it, it is as annoying as in ou and tera water plus purifying salt lets you wall almost every defensive mon. the problem is it is forced to use up tera as rock's kinda shit.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1803901754 example match of garga pulling off its weight.
 
If we banned terastilisation to AG and unbanned every mon which was banned because of it, would there be any serious consequence to the meta? After all, if users wanted to actually use terastilisation, they could go to actual Gen 9 Ubers or AG, and terastilisation is more OP than even the infamous Dynamax, and probably the Gen 5 Type gems ( in Gen 5 ).
This is also because many mon ( unlike with dynamax, where it can fit on literally every mon to make them OP without being broken for Natdex Ubers, now that Zacian has been nerfed ), since they can use their own moves, they are effectively using The Gen 5 type gems if they lasted infinitely, along with some broken strategies for Shedninja. Since Shedninja and Mega Gengar are banned from Natdex ( I don’t really care about Calyrex-S since I think it’ll be added to Scarlet and Violet ), there will be no Gen 9 non-challenge format they can play basic single battles in without any gimmicks in place, and this is all because of stupid terastilisation. ( I do believe Natdex Ubers is better than Natdex AG, as there is no more fucking Revive Cats ).

Also, we keep Mega Rayquaza banned to AG. That thing is way too OP for Ubers, even if Terra is banned.


( This is a curious question. )
 
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If we banned terastilisation to AG and unbanned every mon which was banned because of it, would there be any serious consequence to the meta? After all, if users wanted to actually use terastilisation, they could go to actual Gen 9 Ubers or AG, and terastilisation is more OP than even the infamous Dynamax, and probably the Gen 5 Type gems ( in Gen 5 ).
This is also because many mon ( unlike with dynamax, where it can fit on literally every mon to make them OP without being broken for Natdex Ubers, now that Zacian has been nerfed ), since they can use their own moves, they are effectively using The Gen 5 type gems if they lasted infinitely, along with some broken strategies for Shedninja. Since Shedninja and Mega Gengar are banned from Natdex ( I don’t really care about Calyrex-S since I think it’ll be added to Scarlet and Violet ), there will be no Gen 9 non-challenge format they can play basic single battles in without any gimmicks in place, and this is all because of stupid terastilisation. ( I do believe Natdex Ubers is better than Natdex AG, as there is no more fucking Revive Cats ).

Also, we keep Mega Rayquaza banned to AG. That thing is way too OP for Ubers, even if Terra is banned.


( This is a curious question. )
Tera is nowhere near as broken as Dynamax. Dynamax has absolutely no place in competitive 6v6 singles, it can literally end matches in 3 turns, and massively impacts gameplay (forcing opponent to Dynamax to prevent sacking several mons).

Tera can be annoying but so far it has been manageable in ND Ubers. I can see Tera suspect in future, but it's not quickban worthy

I am not sure if you have played any competitive tier like OU or Ubers with Dynamax, they were absolutely awful with it
 
If we banned terastilisation to AG and unbanned every mon which was banned because of it, would there be any serious consequence to the meta? After all, if users wanted to actually use terastilisation, they could go to actual Gen 9 Ubers or AG, and terastilisation is more OP than even the infamous Dynamax, and probably the Gen 5 Type gems ( in Gen 5 ).
This is also because many mon ( unlike with dynamax, where it can fit on literally every mon to make them OP without being broken for Natdex Ubers, now that Zacian has been nerfed ), since they can use their own moves, they are effectively using The Gen 5 type gems if they lasted infinitely, along with some broken strategies for Shedninja. Since Shedninja and Mega Gengar are banned from Natdex ( I don’t really care about Calyrex-S since I think it’ll be added to Scarlet and Violet ), there will be no Gen 9 non-challenge format they can play basic single battles in without any gimmicks in place, and this is all because of stupid terastilisation. ( I do believe Natdex Ubers is better than Natdex AG, as there is no more fucking Revive Cats ).

Also, we keep Mega Rayquaza banned to AG. That thing is way too OP for Ubers, even if Terra is banned.


( This is a curious question. )
tera isn't really banworthy here imo, and def wayy less broken that dmax, as the most broken abusers are alr banned and it doesn't break anything else to the extent it breaks shed/caly, though if it did get banned i can only see shed as a mon that would stay for sure: mirai is dumb as hell, mray and gar don't use tera and caly has stuff like z-moves so darks aren't really safe at all, which means it might get suspected anyway.
 

Eledyr

Le vilain petit Wooloo
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Host
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Hello everyone, the National Dex Ubers Council is putting out a survey to gauge public opinion on the current metagame.

Anyone with Smogon account may respond and we will be taking a particularly close look on those who have experience on the ladder or in tournaments. We will keep this open through 3:00 PM GMT-5 of Monday, February 27th, but the council will be reading responses as they come in, so respond when possible. It only takes a few minutes to respond, so please do so if you are invested in our metagame!

HERE is the second SV Natdex Ubers tiering survey. Please respond!
 
tera isn't really banworthy here imo, and def wayy less broken that dmax, as the most broken abusers are alr banned and it doesn't break anything else to the extent it breaks shed/caly, though if it did get banned i can only see shed as a mon that would stay for sure: mirai is dumb as hell, mray and gar don't use tera and caly has stuff like z-moves so darks aren't really safe at all, which means it might get suspected anyway.
Oh, okay. Thanks for answering my question! :)
 
Hello everyone, the National Dex Ubers Council is putting out a survey to gauge public opinion on the current metagame.

Anyone with Smogon account may respond and we will be taking a particularly close look on those who have experience on the ladder or in tournaments. We will keep this open through 3:00 PM GMT-5 of Monday, February 27th, but the council will be reading responses as they come in, so respond when possible. It only takes a few minutes to respond, so please do so if you are invested in our metagame!

HERE is the second SV Natdex Ubers tiering survey. Please respond!
Ooh, cool. I believe Natdex Ubers is so much better than AG.
 

Eledyr

Le vilain petit Wooloo
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Host
Translations Leader
Thanks to everyone who voted, we got 38 votes for our second survey, with approximately a third of the responses at 11 users being qualified by our tournament / ladder metrics, so let's get into the results:

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Enjoyment is currently sitting at an average of 8.21/10, while stability is at a 7.39/10. Given how early this survey has been released and how recent the metagame is, these numbers are more than encouraging and indicates that the playerbase appreciates the metagame. These numbers are especially solid given the fact that the numbers from the qualified playerbase are very similar: 8.27/10 for the enjoyment and 7.18/10 for the stability. The lower number on the stability from the playerbase is significative, and indicates there are room for improvement.

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Next, and first Pokemon on the list is Mega-Rayquaza. For a reminder, 1 was "It should be unbanned." and 5 was "It should remain banned."
The average thoughts on Mega-Rayquaza is 4.03/5, which indicates a strong feeling against any actions on it, while the qualified playerbase has an even higher number with an average of 4.27/5. This indicates that Mega-Rayquaza was considered extremely concerning overall, which strengthen the idea that no actions should be taken for Mega-Rayquaza, and that no suspect test should be planned in the future for it.

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Then, came Miraidon. The feelings for it are even stronger than for the aforementioned Mega-Rayquaza, with the average thoughts on Miraidon is 4.16/5 while the average for the qualified playerbase sits at 4.55/5. This indicates an overwhelming opinion about the unhealthiness of Miraidon. This also confirms the idea no actions will be taken in the future about Miraidon.

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The results for Xerneas came with more mixed feelings. For a reminder, 1 was "Balanced" and 5 was "Tiering action needed". The average thoughts for Xerneas is 2.45/5, while the qualified playerbase's average is only slightly over with a result of 2.55/5, with noticeably no qualified players rating Xerneas 5/5. Some players have expressed how Terastralization made Xerneas even better than it was before; the subject of Terastralization will be approach later in the survey, but in the current state, it appears that a majority of player find Xerneas relatively balanced. Xerneas will remain a topic for future discussion among the VR council, but for now, its numbers doesn't suggest to put it into the watchlist.

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The results for Koraidon were also mixed, while less favoring a tiering action. The overall thoughts reach an average of 2.13/5, while the qualified playerbase's thoughts reach an average of 2.45/5. It is clearly that Koraidon has been a dominant force ever since its release, packing many powerful traits in its high Speed and Attack further boosted by its ability Orichalcum Pulse, as well as being an excellent Tera and Z-Move user. The results of the survey indicates that the playerbase finds its presence healthy overall, being able to check many powerful traits in the metagame. Once again, its numbers doesn't suggest to put it into the watchlist.

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Now for what fell like the elephant in the room for the last months, Terastralization has received interesting numbers. The average thought on it is 2.63/5, which indicates a small majority pointing towards action needed to be take. However, these numbers are way higher for the qualified playerbase, with an average of 3.27/5, which indicates a far stronger support towards actions. These numbers remains relatively low, showing a very mixed feeling with the total number of 1/5 matching those of 4/5 and 5/5 rating for the overall opinion. However, it would be dishonest to say Terastralization has a minor impact on the metagame. It is clear that this newly introduced mechanic has a major impact, enhancing powerful threats in the tier such as Necrozma-DM, and the two aforementioned Xerneas and Koraidon. In the end, these numbers has reached the attention of the VR Council, and Terastralization will be remain a subject of discussion for the VR council and put into the watchlist. It doesn't mean that a quickban nor a suspect test will take place for the moment, however if Terastralization grows as an unhealthy mechanic with the future metagame development, actions might be taken.

As an additional note, Arceus-Normal was brought 3 times in comments section, especially due to how effective its use of Terastralization is. It is clear that E-Killer is one of the premier threat and one of the best user of this new mechanic, and those comments definitely makes us considered Terastralization as worthy to be watched for. We'll keep a close eye on both Arceus-Normal and Terastralization in general.

Thanks again to all who responded, if you have any questions feel free to ask in the National Dex Ubers discord, here in this thread, or PM me / Guard.
 
Hey guys check out this cool Chi-yu set

Chi-Yu @ Firium Z
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Flying/Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot
- Flamethrower

It‘s Z-Move can OHKO anything that isn’t something like Heatran. It can even OHKO P-Groudon without SpDef investment

252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal in Harsh Sunshine: 357-421 (88.3 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

To be perfectly honest it probably isn’t good, as its not that fast and isn’t very bulky to compensate, but OHKOing a bulky resist will never not be funny
 
Making a post about it so more people are aware of this

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Regieleki @ Choice Specs
Ability: Transistor
Hidden Power: Ice
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Cage

Regieleki is criminally underused this gen, even in Ubers. Its main weakness that held it back so much in Gen 8 (its lack of coverage) is basically gone now due to terastallization. It may just be because people are generally bad on ladder, but I almost never see anyone run it, and if their team doesn’t have Groudon-P specifically (which is pretty common tbf) it ends up 6-0ing their team. I’ve had most success using it as a lead, where it is able to effortlessly shut down basically anything.

Regiekeki’s main weaknesses are that its susceptible to being revenge killed and it doesn’t work against mons with priority moves, its reliant on terastallization to fully make use of its strengths, and it can really struggle to get on the field sometimes but I think its well worth it for the strengths it provides.
 
Making a post about it so more people are aware of this

View attachment 499316
Regieleki @ Choice Specs
Ability: Transistor
Hidden Power: Ice
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast
- Volt Switch
- Thunder Cage

Regieleki is criminally underused this gen, even in Ubers. Its main weakness that held it back so much in Gen 8 (its lack of coverage) is basically gone now due to terastallization. It may just be because people are generally bad on ladder, but I almost never see anyone run it, and if their team doesn’t have Groudon-P specifically (which is pretty common tbf) it ends up 6-0ing their team. I’ve had most success using it as a lead, where it is able to effortlessly shut down basically anything.

Regiekeki’s main weaknesses are that its susceptible to being revenge killed and it doesn’t work against mons with priority moves, its reliant on terastallization to fully make use of its strengths, and it can really struggle to get on the field sometimes but I think its well worth it for the strengths it provides.
the problem with eleki is that not only it hates the best mon in the meta in pdon, but it also suffers from sorta the same problem as some other glass cannons: it's prediction-reliant and has no defensive utility whatsoever, sorta like garm 2, which sucks because you can't afford to get forced out when you realistically can't come in outside of pivoting, risky doubles and losing another mon.
 
new player to the format making my way up the ladder, i was wondering when or if there will be a viability ranking? if there is no specific date with one in the works, maybe like a how many weeks estimate would be nice
 
Why is MegaMence so high on the viability rankings? What role does it fill?
it has good bulk and the right typing to check stuff like many pdon sets and ho-oh. aerilate is also a great ability and bar from ndm flying resists are rare which lets it go flying-only for ddance sets and have a free slot for stuff like facade to punish status. bulkier sets can also work because its support movepool is actually very nice.
 
Adding on top of that, it also has excellent base speed (120) for a dragon dance sweeper. Due to high base speed, it often can get a kill even without using Dragon Dance. Additionally, it can provide some role compression with Defog.

It also has fire blast for problematic walls like Skarmory or Ferrothorn, should that be necessary.
 
I have a few ideas on who to ban from Nat Dex Ubers. not because they would fit in NDAG, Because they wouldn’t fit in Nat Dex Ubers

Primal Groudon
This Behemoth of a bulky tank and powerhouse all in one needs a ban. It will already be a superpower in NDAG and has a BST of 770. And it isn’t even a mega evolution. so you can have a Mega Alakazam on your team with Primal Groudon.

Arceus of All Sorts
Arceus is literally god. 720 BST, Stab Extreme speed with 120 Atk, cover moves like Judgement and shadow claw and many others.

Zacian-Crowned
150 Atk, 1.5x on switch in, 100 base power Behemoth Blade. i don’t need to say much. Although it got nerfed it still needs destroyed. It has fantastic coverage moves and Great typing. Its very scary.

Necrozma-Ultra
it will do too much damage to anything in Ubers.

Some of my other Please Bans Contain: Deoxys-Attack, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Necrozma-Dawn-Wings, Mega-Mewtwo-Y, Sleep, Evasion, and Shadow tag. Thank you for your time.
this was not correct, the only one i stand by is pdon because of how centralizing it is. predicting a meta game is extremely hard challenge and i appologize for being so wrong.
 

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