RU National Dex RU Metagame Discussion

[MachJacob]

1) How do you feel about the new drops (Mega Manectric, Magnezone, Orthworm and Iron Leaves)? Did I overrate or underrate them?

2) What Pokemon do you feel is overwhelming for the metagame? Does Scizor leaving affect your opinion on this? Is Terastalisation a key factor in making these Pokemon broken?

3) Is there anything in the list that you disagree with? Is there anything else that should be added to the list?

5) How do you feel about Terastalisation in National Dex RU?

6) Do you agree with the tiering philosophy of the tier? What would you change with how National Dex RU is tiered?

A great writeup! To answer most of your questions:

1) I like them all, and your points are all valid. Orthworm might be overrated, but the niche is undeniable and if it takes a place in the meta, will definitely keep DD MAlt in line.

2) The main four I'd say are broken right now are Gengar, Alakazam, Terrakion and Keldeo. Scizor helped keep the first three in line, but I believe they were too strong regardless.

3) I don't think the Shell Smashers are strong enough to be competitive in NDRU right now. Even at +2 with a +speed nature, both Cloyster and Barbaracle fall short of one of the best scarf users in the metagame: Gengar. Two threats I would consider adding are Oricorio and Frosmoth. While their power level in general is pretty low compared to the rest of the tier, Tera + Quiver Dance is a very potent threat.

5) I like Tera. I feel the flexibility and freedom it provides to teambuilding is beneficial, and well worth the cost of having to ban more Pokemon. Yes, there is a lot that can go wrong with the mechanic, but the fact that it can grant Pokemon viability where it previously wasn't, allow something to check what it couldn't, force its way past something that might normally stop it, all contribute to the decision making. There are battles where a well-timed Tera can immediately win the game, but that's far from unique to Pokemon. Any setup sweeper can reach this point, but it takes skill to maneuvre everything so you can get into that situation, Tera or not.
Tera is fun, and I feel the decision-making it creates, both in the builder and the battle, are fun. While I am open to most of the proposed Tera restrictions such as Tera Preview, I would rather see Z-Moves be banned from National Dex than Tera.

6) How you've outlined the tiering philosophy of the council is something I largely agree with. More bans will need to happen if Tera stays, but I see that as a larger fault of National Dex than anything else. Last gen I was somewhat critical of the large banlist, comparing the 7 SS RUBL with the 28 SSND RUBL. While there are still bans there I disagree with (free Tangrowth), there is good reason the list is four times larger than its non-National Dex counterpart. The power creep inherent to the addition of new Pokemon will create such a huge list of Pokemon that it's unreasonable to check them all.
One change I would like with the council is that I would prefer more transparency on when action is going to be taken. I'm not a fan of hearing constant whispers of "ban soon" without knowing how soon.

 

[I am New]

A great writeup! To answer most of your questions:

1) I like them all, and your points are all valid. Orthworm might be overrated, but the niche is undeniable and if it takes a place in the meta, will definitely keep DD MAlt in line.

Orthworm isnt perfect malt answer at all cost it takes so much damage from fire blast. DD fire blast might become an option on altaria[joking]. Mixed special and bulky malts almost always run fire blast. now tbf the most threatening and broken set is dd and worm does check it. But its far from a perfect answer. It also gives free setups to the incredebly dangerous oricorio[which is STILL underrated as hell. I would call it broken].

 

[Runo]

1) How do you feel about the new drops (Mega Manectric, Magnezone, Orthworm and Iron Leaves)? Did I overrate or underrate them?

Mega Manectric is a great additon to VoltTurn teams since, unlike Zeraora, it can pressure Mega Aggron and Amoongus far easier thanks to its superior fire coverage. Intimidate is also great to keep down threats like Terrakion, Mega Altaria, etc.

Magnezone is a fun addition to the tier thanks to its ability to check most steel types. Removing defensive threats like Mega Aggron or Tinkaton is incredible support for incredibly deadly sweepers such as Mega Altaria and Mega Aerodactyl. Sets like IDBP and Specs are really fun to use, while Choice Scarf is a neat tool to remove things like Terrakion, Keldeo, or the resurging Durant.

Orthworm is an awful mon here and there's no reason to use this over Mega Aggron or even Registeel for that matter. Its niche of being a ground immune steel doesn't excuse the fact that its pretty much a deadweight into the rest of the offensive meta. Even checking things like Mega Aerodactyl or Nihilego aren't a guarentee since one can slot Fire Fang and the other just uses brute force with Meteor Beam into Thunderbolt. With the current meta being the way it is and Shed Tail being banned, you can never convince me to use this mon ever.

Iron Leaves is a threat, but it's kinda held down by a whole bunch of broken clickers. Booster Energy with access to Swords Dance and good coverage makes it a potent sweeper, which can be further boosted by Tera to eliminate or setup on its standard checks.

2) What Pokemon do you feel is overwhelming for the metagame? Does Scizor leaving affect your opinion on this? Is Terastalisation a key factor in making these Pokemon broken?

SD Terrakion is straight up impossible to defensively check with Rockium Z nuking everything. The same goes for Choice Band sets where you can just run Tera Rock or Fighting to shred defensive cores. It also has a good speed tier so its kinda tough to check it offensively, especially with Scizor and Meowscarada's rise to UU.

One of the fastest threats the meta and sports incredible power. The second it clicks Nasty Plot, the game is probably over because it'll just run through entire teams and have its teammates cleanup whatever is left.

Specs Gengar with Tera Ghost has only one reliable switch in and that's Muk-Alola. Nasty Plot sets are incredibly dangerous thanks to its high speed and Ghostium Z.

Mon clicks Dragon Dance and wins if there's no Mega Aggron

Specs Keldeo is a nightmare to switch into and can use Tera Water to beat normal checks like Slowbro and Amoonguss. This forces you to use the slightly worse Slowking in order to check it. Calm Mind sets are also very hard to check with Grass types fearing +1 Flyium Z or just everything being unable to check it if it runs a defensive Tera like Fairy.

Mon clicks Dragon Dance and wins if there's no Mega Aggron, Amoonguss, or Talonflame. But those mons aren't uncommon picks or anything. Also very vulnerable during the setup phaze. Mons like Nidoking, Cobalion, and Durant being able to prevent it from setting up. Status also kills its sweep. I think we can give this mon another chance as we move to ban another problem mons.

Mega Heracross is very stupid since its raw power lets it run through defensive structures, with little effort. With no switchs ins in the tier, you're forced to sack something in order to check it offensively. But even then, it commonly runs Trailblaze in order to bypass its offensive checks, making it borderline impossible to beat.

3) Is there anything in the list that you disagree with? Is there anything else that should be added to the list?

Pass :3

4) Are there any Pokemon you find broken in the current metagame but see little discussion on?

Has an above average speed tier with great coverage and legit just clicks Nasty Plot to win on the spot almost.

Our spinners are pretty mid and all of our good defoggers suck ass into Bisharp. This results in a situation where its pretty much impossible to clear hazards unless Bisharp is dead, which is easier said than done because of Bisharp's new Eviolite bulk. The second Defiant triggers, all it needs is to Tera Dark to become a living nuke. It also abuses Mega Manectric so you can't afford missplay around Bisharp or you'll be punished on the spot.


I already thought this mon was problematic even during the Scizor meta. This mon has very constrained counterplay and its pretty difficult to stop it from sweeping on the spot. With Magnezone dropping, Nihilego gained a great partner since it can remove its most consistent checks from the game immedately.


The counterplay to Demon Deo is only Regen Cores and Swords Dance Zarude. Even worse is the fact that Deoxys can just Tera Poison to avoid Toxic damage and become really frustrating to beat. Very constraining mon in the builder and incredibly unfun to play against.

There are more mons I think are broken, but that is more leading up to the next point.

5) How do you feel about Terastalisation in National Dex RU?

I'm aligned with a lot of the pro-ban arguments in this thread. These two arguments in particular.

The biggest problem I have with it is how it can allow you to bypass your biggest checks and potentially win the game on the spot. Like I can't count how many times I've lost a match on the spot because of something like Tera Psychic Alakazam or Tera Water Keldeo shredding their standard checks and leaving me dumbfounded. While those mons are broken and will most likely be banned soon, other mons such as Dark Bisharp, Fighting Conkeldurr, Flying Staraptor, Water Azumarill, Normal Swellow, Dragon Regidrago, Electric Zeraora, etc are all unwallable basically unless you have very fat or specific checks, which aren't even guarenteed stops because of their raw power. Mons like Cresselia, Deoxys-D, Reuniclus, Suicune, CM Primarina and Keldeo, Haxorus (and Regidrago), Necrozma, and Nihilego can also just use Tera to cheese their way out of a poor matchup, and it makes the counterplay to them very constrained and seeing them on preview is almost always a pain to deal with. These mons are dumb and will get even dumber as the metagame slows down with bans.

I don't approve of how people talk about very irrelevant cheese mons such as the random quiver dancers and shell smashers (who are only "good" because they can cheese their checks with tera) and call them strong and potentially broken sleepers, but at the same time think that Tera has been a positive aspect of the tier.

6) Do you agree with the tiering philosophy of the tier? What would you change with how National Dex RU is tiered?

My opinions are a little bit biased due to being apart of NDRU Council, but the only change I want to see is a break from "precedent" by taking action on Tera. I put precedent in quotes because to put it bluntly, there is none. Mega Stones, and Z-Moves were never suspected in their respective tiers, not even by OU themselves because they're widely considered to be balanced. Meanwhile in Gen 8; Dynamax was banned from OU so fast, that UU wasn't even out of Alpha stage (they couldn't ban it even if they wanted to), and RU didn't even exist yet. Why should that be considered a precedent to follow if lower tiers didn't even have a chance to take action on a generational mechanic? This issue isn't even limited to ND RU either: ND UU and SV Lower Tiers are in the same boat whereby they feel obligated to avoid taking action on tera despite there being no clear precedent to do so. Especially in NatDex UU, where most of the experienced playerbase (including the Tier Leaders themselves) loathe Tera. There should be no reason to be that dependent on OU to take action when Lower Tiers have the chance to do it now and are fumbling the ball.

Now I recognize that Tera is a very controversial issue and that an outright ban in any tier would be scrutinized heavily. Tiers with dedicated ladders can just suspect Tera and be done with it; but for a ladder-less tier like ND RU, the best approach would be a suspect tournament. I'm not sure about the specifics, but the idea I had was a swiss tour with the top-cut players being allowed to vote on it. With a swiss tour allowing for the maximum amount of games, while also avoiding experienced players being eliminated from the voting pool early on. Also with NDPL coming soon, we could add to the voter pool. Anyways, I would appreciate other people's input on this topic.

Besides my rant about tera, this meta is decent but still has much work to be done in order for it to be balanced.

 

[Cancel cult]

i would like to propose a potential addition to the viability ranks that i am not confident in at all. i didnt expect to be saying this, but i think cosmoem of all things has a place in the meta. keep in mind that i know nothing about the meta, so take this with a grain of salt.
yesterday, i joined a natdex ru tourney. the team i used had an outlier, that being cosmoem. ive used cosmoem in the past, and while many matches it wouldnt be used at all, its ability to safely switch into another team has saved me a few matches, and i thought that was funny enough to bring in. i figured since ru has lower power, it might be a bit more effective then usual. which turned out to be the case.
i, an outsider to the meta, proceeded to win the entire tournament. cosmoems switching shenanigans were used often, and contributed to the win. keep in mind, that this wasnt even the only nfe mon on the team. this was the team btw:
https://pokepast.es/f4c2339540d8f45b
why do i think this worked? i have a few theories. again, the power level is lower, alowing it to be used more. it also has great sinergy with lokix and murkrow, who is on the team for the sole purpose of pissing people off. however, since i dont know the meta, these are only theories. i also have no footage of this, so you will just have to trust me. however, i think i might remember runoisch being there, so if that was the case, he can vouch for me. there is a high likelyhood this was just me being lucky. however, it would be funny if cosmoem turned out to be a meta threat. and at the end of the day, isnt that all that matters?
I would again like to clarify that i dont think cosmoem is likely to be viable, but i gotta take the chance.

 

[Gangsta Spongebob]

We lost a great friend in Scizor

Another day, another ban slate! As per the votes, Alakazam, Gengar, Keldeo, Mega Heracross, and Terrakion are banned from Nat Dex RU!

The Votes

It's not hard to see why Alakazam is broken. Its excellent Special Attack, decent coverage, and access to Nasty Plot make it among the deadliest special attackers around. While it's absurdly frail, Magic Guard makes it deceptively hard to KO due to its immunity to residual damage, including Life Orb recoil. This is compounded by Alakazam's amazing Speed, outpacing virtually the entire unboosted metagame. This isn't even mentioning Tera, which lets Alakazam hit even harder.

Gengar is in a similar boat. While it isn't as fast and lacks Magic Guard, it still has an excellent Speed, a gargantuan Special Attack, and Nasty Plot. Gengar has great coverage and access to arguably the best offensive STAB in the game: Ghost. Furthermore, Gengar is an excellent offensive abuser of Terastalisation.

However, recent shifts are what push these Pokemon into being undeniably broken. While they were never perfect answers, Scizor, Meowscarda, and Tyranitar were excellent and splashable offensive checks to both Alakazam and Gengar. With these three Pokemon now UU by usage, the tier cannot handle Alakazam and Gengar and thus they have been banned.



Another casualty of recent shifts, the rise of Scizor and Meowscarda leave us with very limited options to check Terrakion. With an excellent STAB combination, superb coverage options in Earthquake and Megahorn, above-average Speed, and the option to Terastalize at the drop of a hat, Terrakion is an absolute nightmare to check. Despite having a poor defensive typing, its decent bulk is more than enough to facilitate Swords Dance set-up, enabling it to rip and tear through teams. While the tier does have some defensive responses like Hippowdon and Mega Slowbro, the only catch-all check to Terrakion is the nonexistent Pallosand. This Pokemon was already borderline when it was checked by some of the best Pokemon in the tier, so losing them makes Terrakion unbearable for Nat Dex RU.



Another broken Sword of Justice, the sheer power of Keldeo made it way too much for the tier to handle. Choice Specs obliterates every Pokemon that doesn't resist both of its STABs. Tera Water lets Keldeo 2HKO even Water-resistant Pokemon like Slowbro. Slowking was the only consistent switch-in to this behemoth. And Keldeo isn't slow either, with it being just as fast as Terrakion. While Calm Mind and Choice Scarf sets are unexplored, the raw power of Choice Specs is simply too much for the tier to reasonably prepare for.



Ever since the start of Gen 9, Mega Heracross has been on the edge of being banned. While the tier had been distracted by even crazier threats, (seriously what the hell was Latios doing here) we have finally reached the day where Mega Heracross gets the boot. With its absolutely earth-shattering Attack stat, Swords Dance, and solid coverage, Mega Heracross is straight-up unwallable. In the early stages of the metagame, plenty of fast offensive threats kept Mega Heracross relatively in check thanks to its mediocre Speed. However, it should be noted that its speed is enough to shred anything remotely defensive and Trailblaze means that even offense isn’t safe. At any rate, Mega Heracross' presence in the metagame is untenable and it is (finally) time for it to leave.

While these are the only bans for now, there are still a couple of Pokemon that the Council may address in the near future.



Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Altaria are the biggest offenders, as the rise of Scizor has made these already powerful Pokemon much harder to check. Both Pokemon utilize Dragon Dance to effortlessly cleave through unprepared teams. Mega Aerodactyl also possesses the second highest unboosted Speed in the tier, making it absurdly dangerous even before it sets up, while Mega Altaria's excellent bulk and typing make it exceptionally hard to dislodge even when it’s running zero bulk investment.

Here's a list of Pokemon that aren't considered overpowered now but may see some tiering action in the future.






Otherwise, have a great day and thanks to everyone for reading this. Special thanks to Velcroc for helping me write this.

Tagging Kris to implement this on PS.

 

[Runo]

NatDex RU finally has a VR!​

Ranks

Pokemon will be ranked in descending order; there is no divide in viability inbetween ranks. There is no differentiation in offensive and defensive Pokemon. Toxapex may be A+ for its defensive utility, while Hydreigon may be A+ for its capabilities as a wallbreaker.

S-Rank:
Top of the top. Rulers of the metagame. These Pokemon fit on most playstyles and need minimal support to function, if any at all.

S
None

There is still a lot of debate about who can be considered the best mon in the metagame, some people (myself included) believe that Mega Altaria is the best, while others say great things about Mega Aerodactyl and Sandy Shocks. All great mons, but none can be considered S-tier by consensus.

A-Rank:
Meta defining, but not to the extent of the Pokemon in S Rank. These Pokemon need minimal support to function.

A+
Aerodactyl-Mega
Altaria-Mega
Bisharp
Hippowdon
Nihilego
Sandy-Shocks
Slowbro

A
Amoonguss
Cobalion
Iron-Leaves
Mandibuzz
Manectric-Mega
Tapu-Bulu
Thundurus
Thundurus-Therian
Zeraora

A-
Aggron-Mega
Deoxys-Defense
Gastrodon
Lycanroc-Dusk
Mienshao
Rotom-Heat
Sharpedo-Mega
Slowking
Swampert
Volcanion
Zarude

B-Rank:
Solid Pokemon, but they don't shape the meta like S and A Rank. They have a defined role which is often applicable and usually quite valuable. These Pokemon always need some support to bring out the best in them.

B+
Azelf
Azumarill
Conkeldurr
Cresselia
Crobat
Dracozolt
Houndoom-Mega
Iron-Jugulis
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Necrozma
Nidoking
Pidgeot-Mega
Primarina
Slither-Wing
Slowbro-Mega
Staraptor
Swellow
Tinkaton

B
Absol-Mega
Breloom
Diggersby
Infernape
Krookodile
Noivern
Reuniclus
Rhyperior
Suicune
Talonflame
Zygarde-10%

B-
Arctozolt
Bronzong
Cetitan
Chandelure
Crawdaunt
Ditto
Gligar
Haxorus
Iron-Thorns
Steelix-Mega
Nidoqueen
Ninetales-Alola
Pawmot
Sceptile-Mega
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua
Tornadus
Toxtricity

C-Rank:
Niche Pokemon that have little to no effect on the metagame, being rarely applicable, highly specific or simply not that valuable in the current meta. Using these Pokemon requires you to focus most of the team on supporting it. Oftentimes when a Pokemon only fits on one specific archetype, they'll reside in this tier.

C+
Chesnaught
Cloyster
Drednaw
Durant
Feraligatr
Flygon
Golurk
Heracross
Lokix
Quagsire
Regidrago
Registeel
Ribombee
Scolipede
Shuckle
Starmie
Sylveon
Tatsugiri
Umbreon
Venomoth
Weezing-Galar

C
Aerodactyl
Alomomola
Armarouge
Barbaracle
Barraskewda
Camerupt-Mega
Darmanitan
Empoleon
Escavalier
Espeon
Froslass
Gallade
Gardevoir
Grafaiai
Indeedee
Lucario
Marowak-Alola
Metagross
Milotic
Muk-Alola
Ninetales
Oricorio-Pom-Pom
Oricorio-Sensu
Orthworm
Pincurchin
Porygon2
Raichu-Alola
Roserade
Scream Tail
Slowbro-Galar
Slurpuff
Stakataka
Tauros-Paldea-Blaze
Tentacruel
Vanilluxe
Vaporeon
Venusaur
Wo-Chien

Any questions about the VR are more than welcome, and I'd be glad to answer all of them.
This also means that VR nominations are available. Please refer to the below rules that have been gracefully stolen from NDOU.

Guidelines

Guidelines

There are some guidelines to keep in mind before posting here. We want to foster intelligent discussion, not unfounded arguments. Please keep these things in mind:

• Posts like "I think X Pokemon should be in Y Rank" will be deleted; make sure to back your opinion with facts and an actual analysis of the metagame.
• Adding onto the above, I would simply like to point out that, while usage stats may be used to support your argument, they should not be the basis of your argument. Saying something along the lines of "X Pokemon is not used often, so it should drop" or "X Pokemon is used very often, but it isn't ranked very high, it should rise" are not valid arguments.
• You shouldn't merely state the obvious things either. We know that Galarian Darmanitan has access to a very strong STAB Icicle Crash combined with good coverage options. We are far more interested in knowing what meta trends may favor Galarian Darmanitan.
• Replays are mandatory to support a nomination if a Pokemon is Unranked.
• This is not the place for personal attacks. Not everyone agrees on the viability of Pokemon, and that is no reason to attack them. Any posts that do attack users will be swiftly deleted and met with an infraction.

 

[skippergamez]

Holy centralized

 

[Taka]

This tier list is the size of ubers + ou’s combined

 

[TH1N3 H4MM3R]

nah you can't convince me this isn't a comically powercrept UU meta

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

nah you can't convince me this isn't a comically powercrept UU meta

And then there's Gastrodon who once again seemingly can work in practically any meta that needs the niche it has regardless of the general power level.

Thing's been ranging from PU to even OU play over the last few gens its insane. Almost better than Quagsire in some regards.

Edit: Oh and Swellow being better than, well the list of surprising mons that aren't very good RN is a bit too long for this post lol.

 

[slimyslug123]

Hi, so since the new VR came out today, I checked out on it, and I found Empoleon lurking in the C tier, and I thought I would attempt writing a VR nomination for Empoleon to the B- or B tier. Empoleon's bulk of 84/88/101 is pretty solid, especially when paired with it's excellent typing, giving it toxic immunity for one. Moreover, a base 111 spA is by no means weak, letting its scalds hit for decent chip damage as well. It's moveset is also very diverse, letting it run many different moves accordingly to your team's playstyle including Toxic, Protect, Roar, Knock off, giving it utility, and Defog for hazard removals. Toxic hits many passive mons such as (Mega) Slowbro, Slowking, Volcanion, and even Gastrodon as physically defensive or specially defensive (Earthquake or Earth Power) Empoleon takes little from either variant. Empoleon also avoids the 2hko from Mega Aerodactyl's unboosted earthquake after Protect and Leftovers recovery. However though these are certainly beneficial traits, it should also be noted that Empoleon does have its flaws. Empoleon loses to the many common electric types in the tier such as Zeraora, Mega Manectric, and Sandy Shocks, as well as Empoleon's steel typing letting it susceptible to the plethora of coverage moves hitting it for supereffective damage such as Close Combat from Sharpedo, and Earthquake. Terastallization into various types does fix these flaws, though admittedly opening its new typing to other problems.

 

[Velcroc]

I'll briefly go over my thoughts on this VR in the next few paragraphs and point out the notable stuff on this list and how I voted for them. Yes, this metagame is very power crept. However, the creep is probably the least it's been since February. I anticipate a lot of movement depending on how OU and UU handle their tiering + tours.

Significantly Differences
I ran the numbers and on the whole, most of my votes were either on par with the rankings (1/2 of the slate) or ranked higher (1 in 3). This and the rather large C rank should give an indication that we're trying to cast a wide net on what works and what doesn't. We even had a C- rank which we ended up discarding since a lot of it contained gimmicky Pokemon.

I differed from the council on 15 separate Pokemon. A lot of these were unranked Pokemon like ( ) or niche Pokemon in the C ranks ( ). I will special mention to Oricorio-P which I ranked in the B- rank for its unique blend of defensive and offensive potential.


Magnezone seems severely under-ranked in my opinion but I think the community will eventually come around to it both as a Magnet Pull Pokemon and as an interesting option as a pivot (be it with Analytic Specs or Assault Vest). I feel a similar way about Suicune which can utilise Tera Dragon and Tera Fairy sets to turn games on opposition. Vincune, in particular, is a fearsome breaker for unprepared or underprepared teams, but it struggles with a lot of high-ranked Pokemon in this metagame like Zarude, Volcanion and Quagsire especially if it burnt through its Tera. People are not too down with stall currently, but I think Quagsire can find a niche as a hybrid between Swampert and Gastrodon on balance teams.


I voted C- (basically UR) for Tatsugiri because I have 0 idea what this does in the current metagame other than serve as mediocre hazard removal. I had similarly low expectations for Iron Thorns as a hit-or-miss Dragon Dance sweeper. I thought B- rank was sufficient for Slither Wing but I think I may have misjudged it since Mega Heracross and Scizor leaving opens up quite a bit for our moth friend. Strong pivot come revenge-killer make it the de facto Bug-type of the format and a solid B+ Pokemon. I have never understood Ditto but I guess we may count on it to help against all the wacky set-up sweepers we have here.

Quick Takes


Looking at the VR, I think I'm proud of how it has turned out. No S-ranks is a bit unfortunate but as Runoisch mentioned, the council had a bit of a conundrum deciding between Mega Altaria and Mega Aerodactyl as S-ranks. I, on the other hand, voted for Sandy Shocks and I hold strongly to this opinion (feel free to ask me in the NDRU and Nat Dex discord why). Aside from that, A+, A and A- more or less line up with my expectations of how the metagame ought to like.


B+ is sort of the do-or-die rank for a lot of these VRs. If you look at pretty much any UU or RU viability ranking, you will notice that anything "passable" is put in the B Rank. This time, it's a bit different. B+ is filled to the brim with powerful wall breakers that don't have the same level of splashability you find with the A ranks. In a similar vein, most of the snowballing calm-mind psychic types are in this rank (with the exception of the underrated Reuniclus and DeoD). Tinkaton and Crobat are utility Pokemon that are slowly rising to the forefront. For these reasons, I think B+ and B are a lot closer in this VR than expected, and I do urge people not to discount the B ranks.


B- reminds me of B- in the current OU VR where it's stuff that could put in serious work but have significant flaws. I think the B- tier could be shaken up a little, though it is satisfactory as is. I will say that Pawmot, Crawdaunt, Haxorus and Nidoqueen are underrated. Hail is put here as a placeholder. There was discussion to raise it to B or B+ given that Alolan Ninetales is a far better hail setter than Vanilluxe or the unviable ones, but the VR was practically done when the shifts were rolling around so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. C+ and the C ranks are the wild wild west for all the stuff that could be potentially viable. NDPL is quite a ways away so I doubt we'll be purging it anytime soon.

So that's where I stand. If the other council members have any quick thoughts, feel free to comment. If you have any questions on the rankings or tier in general, feel free to @ me in the SQSA thread.

 

[Runo]

​

Following the announce of RU Open as apart of the NatDex Grand Slam, the council deemed it necessary to vote on another ban slate.

Votes

Bisharp, Deoxys-Defense, Iron Leaves, and Mega Aerodactyl have been banned from NDRU!


This isn't the first time Bisharp has been banned from a NDRU tier, but Gen 9 granted it two new toys to reinvigorate it: Eviolite and Terastallization. Bisharp's augmented bulk from Eviolite meant that it had no issue setting up with Swords Dance in front of tier staples such as Slowbro, Sandy Shocks, Mega Altaria, and Mega Aerodactyl while hitting them back with its powerful boosted STABs. Tera Dark allowed it to hit absurdly hard and overwhelm physical walls such as Hippowdon with brute force, while also being the most consistent revenge killer in the metagame. Although Tera Dark is a very strong and popular option, Tera Fire sets let it abuse counters such as Cobalion and Defensive Rotom-Heat for free setup while also letting Bisharp cheese other checks like Zarude or Mienshao by removing its severe weakness to Fighting. Other Tera types such as Fairy, Water, and Ghost could achieve the same effect (whereby it has free reign to setup on its would be checks). Bisharp's Defiant additionally let it abuse nearly every Defogger in the metagame for a free +2 attack boost. And with our options for hazard control being incredibly already limited and our hazard setters being so plentiful, Bisharp punishing Defog attempts made the hazards metagame incredibly constrained and far too lopsided to be considered healthy. These combined factors have resulted in Bisharp earning a promotion to RUBL, good job! Please never come back.


Deoxys-Defense had been on our radar since its debut in NDRU Kickoff. Its Cosmic Power sets (dubbed Demon Deoxys by some) are incredibly difficult to handle due to Taunt shutting down virtually every defensive Toxic spreader and Phazers such as Swampert, Hippowdon, and Tapu Bulu. Offensive threats such as Bisharp (banned now), Sharpedo-Mega, and even assumed hard counters such as Zarude often get the matchup flipped on them thanks to Tera types such as Poison or Water letting Deoxys-Defense use these mons as setup bait. Other supposed checks such as Encore Tinkaton or Scream Tail merely delay the inevitable due to them getting PP stalled by Pressure. This ultimately forced incredibly constrained counter-play such as Regenerator cores in order to avoid a long and drawn out loss on preview, but even those weren't always foolproof due to how prevalent hazard stacking is in the metagame. TLDR: Cosmic Power on this mon was hella unfun to face against and tera made it even worse. It's overstayed its welcome here.


Iron Leaves was thought to be a perfectly fine mon with a ton of checks thanks to its mediocre defensive typing. However; all of that goes out the window when it Terastallizes. Tera types such as Fighting and Fire let it setup with Swords Dance on nearly all of its checks such as Mandibuzz and Rotom-Heat and dish out a ton of damage due to its good offensive typing and Close Combat to beat Steel types such as Cobalion and Mega Aggron. Booster Energy with a speed boosting spread additionally allowed Iron Leaves to outpace the entire unscarfed metagame, forcing select Choice Scarf users such as Zarude or Mienshao in order to check it. Even then, those mons could potentially fumble once Iron Leaves Terastallized. Fairly cut and dry ban in my opinion: mon setup too easily and had too few checks for it to be considered balanced.


We originally didn't plan on re-voting on Mega Aerodactyl this slate, but it was brought up that the Dragon Dance sets were still a cause for concern. After a single boost, it was impossible to outpace and very difficult to check offensively, even with priority users like Conkeldurr and Bisharp (banned) requiring significant chip damage in order to beat it. This meant that checking it defensively was the only means of counter-play, but its wide array of coverage options meant that it could pick and choose what it wanted to beat: Thunder Fang or Crunch for Slowbro, Ice Fang for Hippowdon and the rare Gligar, Earthquake for Nihilego and Sandy Shocks, the list goes on. Mega Aerodactyl's unpredictability made defensively checking it a pain and too constraining to realistically deal with, demanding Pokémon such as Mega-Aggron or less viable picks such as Rhyperior or Bronzong in order to check it.


Mega Altaria has once again escaped the banhammer, with its Dragon Dance sets still being viewed at under heavy scrutiny. Although there is splashable counter-play such as Amoonguss and Mega Aggron that help balance it out, there is still a concern that Mega Altaria in general might be too much for the tier to handle, as this mon is still incredibly versatile with a ton of viable spreads and sets that help it fit on almost every structure from Stall to Hyper Offense. Mega Altaria pretty much runs this tier now.


that is all for now. Go build for RU Open

 

[Runo]

Bisharp, Deoxys-Defense, Iron Leaves, and Mega Aerodactyl have been banned from NDRU!

I forgot to tag Kris and Marty, apologies

 

[georgebowserjr]

30 total banned pokemon, what a milestone… the tiering admins must love us! Thank you to everyone for surviving this far!

 

[Runo]

Hawlucha moved from NDRUBL to NDUU
Mew moved from NDRUBL to NDUU
Crawdaunt moved from NDRU to NDUU
Kingdra moved from NDRU to NDUU
Nihilego moved from NDRU to NDUU
Politoed moved from NDRU to NDUU

Blissey moved from NDUU to NDRU
Cyclizar moved from NDUU to NDRU
Houndstone moved from NDUU to NDRU
Tangrowth moved from NDUU to NDRU
Torkoal moved from NDUU to NDRU

Comments on rises

two RUBL brokemons rising to UU, nothing to see here


Somehow the two weirdest rain abusers rose but Skewda and Floatzel didn't. Well sorry you had to leave so soon Crawdaunt, we'll be awaiting your return.


Mon rose because people were spamming it for the Mega Gyarados suspect test (me included). It probably comes back once the heat dies down.

Comment on drops

Yadda yadda powercreep NatDex moment, nah this is just the ladder being silly. Mon is genuinely good in UU but is just unused guess? Stall teams have started shifting towards using Chansey instead of Blissey, and other playstyles like fat are underexplored in UU so that kinda explains it.

Anyways this is a big buff to RU Stall. Pairs well with defensive walls like Slowbro and Alomomola to wall most of the metagame. Check this team below which is totally not a slightly modified version of an SM UU Stall LMAO:


Balance teams and fat teams are also a whole lot better as well. A blanket special wall with a ton of utility is very incredible.

Not a bad mon, but arguably not a great one either. Regenerator and its boundless utility such as Rapid Spin and Knock Off give it a very notable niche here.

Garbage mon, Fluffy and Will-o-Wisp ain't enough to justify this on a team over other far more superb walls.


The goat is back in RU again and while this is being overlooked because of other drops like Blissey, a fat regen Grass with good utility is still very valuable here. although its going to compete with Amoonguss and Tapu Bulu, it's still going to be a meta defining mon.


Torkoal is whatever to be honest. This buffs Sun a bit, but Sun badly wants Heat Rock to be freed before I start to call it good again. This just takes Ninetales' spot on the VR

I will make a post about the state of the metagame soon (aka after someone else posts so I don't have to double post)

 

[Furret4ssb]

Garbage mon, Fluffy and Will-o-Wisp ain't enough to justify this on a team over other far more superb walls.

https://pokepast.es/5efce5782844bcad

 

[Arishem]

A -> A+

Echoing some of the statements made during discussions I've had recently, if there's one Pokemon in particular that's since stood out to me from playing, then I believe enough can be gathered from it to explain why it's deserving of a higher rank in this metagame.

So the main thing that stands out is the typing in general, which alone gives critical advantages against the plethora of waters and grounds dominating the tier, making for plenty of setup opportunities against the popularity of Hippo, the Slowtwins, and Swampert. Obviously, the typing is not only good against things defensively, as combined with its bulk when invested, you can also take advantage of the resistances to just as easily beat down a plethora of other notable offensive threats, namely Zarude, Jabless Mienshao, Sandy Shocks, and Zeraora, for which the reward for doing so in either scenario is absolutely stunning. SD 3A with Orb currently has very few downsides offensively, and can easily fit the coverage moves it wants to break past its defensive checks within the slower pace of the metagame; whether it's Edge to snipe incoming Rotoms and Flyers; CC for Steels; Zen to beat Amoonguss at +2; Tera types such as Grass or Z-Moves help increase its natural power, whereas types like Fire let it check threats like Mega Altaria and Cobalion whilst becoming immune to burns, making it very easy to offensively support in this regard. In addition, the terrain provided also plays a major part behind the integrity of most cores in the meta right now, be it through the ability to simply give/double the passive recovery of defensive mons upon entry, or weakening EQs and easing setup for things otherwise weak to them.

tl;dr Goated mon, breaking potential combined with its aforementioned versatility being easily applicable in both offensive and defensive aspects make Bulu an integral part of the tier, to the extent it can guarantee value on any archetype in some form.

 

[Smashburn]

"Tera remains legal in National Dex!"

My honest reaction to this information:

 

[Runo]

"Tera remains legal in National Dex!"

Given the result of the NatDex OU suspect, there is ongoing discussion about NatDex lower tiers being able to decide on Tera for themselves. So we created a small survey in order to gauge the community on further tiering action.

Link to the Tiering Survey

It would behoove ongoing NDRU Open players to complete this survey btw, so I'm going to tag them

Tags

TBIC106, LBN, phantomclaw8888, s7a, Capfoo, JustFranco, Rafadude, Mr.Bossaru, Gangsta Spongebob, lolebruh, Banbadoro, hidin

minor addendum: Drought is also banned from RU because of UU banning it from their tier.

 

[Runo]

protip: save your drafts on a google doc or smth, had to redo this twice.

Survey Results!
A total of 30 responses were gathered which will help us understand the community's perception of this tier.

How enjoyable do you find the current metagame?

1 being the least enjoyable and 10 being the most enjoyable.
(7.3/7.6)
The average enjoyment of the metagame is 7.6 for our qualified responses and 7.3 for our total responses. This is not bad considering some of the controversies we've had to deal with such as Terastal and very strong threats such as Mega Altaria, but it does show that we need to continue to work on improving this tier before it starts to be fun for everyone.

How competitive do you find the current metagame (does the better player win most of the time)?

1 being very uncompetitive and 10 being very competitive
(6.6/6.8)
Overall, people on average have given the metagame a 6.8 for qualified responses and a 6.6 for our total responses. Admittedly, this is kind of a mediocre score but it does help highlight that people don't believe that the current meta is balanced. Hopefully we can improve this score as we continue to remove unhealthy elements from this tier such as the issues below.

How do you feel about Altaria-Mega in the current metagame?

1 being very balanced and 10 being very unbalanced
(3.3/3.13)
Mega Altaria has been a very controversial Pokémon ever since the Scizor metagame, and this can be reflected in the survey results with an average response being 3.13 for qualified users and 3.30 in total. The biggest complaints have been from Mega Altaria's Dragon Dance sets and its sheer versatility, which can make it both unpredictable on preview and require multiple checks on a team. That being said, the checks in question are fairly splashable both defensively and offensively. Council will discuss internally on whether or not to put Mega Altaria on the slate once again.

How do you feel about Blissey in the current metagame?

1 being very balanced and 10 being very unbalanced
(2.43/2.06)
With an average response of 2.06 from our qualified users and 2.43 from our total responses, people think that Blissey is generally balanced in the metagame, although there still exists concerns that Blissey might be enabling bulkier playstyles such as Fat and Stall too well for the metagame to handle. It's doubtful that we will take action on Blissey given this information as we have very strong wallbreakers and stallbreakers that can handle it, but we will continue to monitor Blissey's impact on the tier.

How do you feel about Cresselia in the current metagame?

1 being very balanced and 10 being very unbalanced
(3.96/4.26)
As you can see in the image, there is overwhelming concerns about Cresselia in the metagame; with the average response being 4.26 for qualified responses and 3.96 for total responses. This no doubt due to Cresselia being one of best bulky win-cons and one of the best abusers of Tera in the metagame and being a chore to handle overall, requiring very specific counter-play in order to beat it. Action will most likely be taken on it soon.

How do you feel about Thundurus-I in the current metagame?

1 being very balanced and 10 being very unbalanced
(3/3)
There are very mixed feelings about Thundurus-I, mainly stemming from how uncommon it is but remaining a very dangerous setup sweeper with Nasty Plot and its great speed tier. With an average response of 3 from both our qualified and total responses, we'll continue to monitor Thundurus-I's impact on the metagame and possibly put it on the next ban slate, but hopefully this survey brings some discussion about it to light.

Are there any Pokémon not listed on this survey that you like to see taken action on?

The vast majority of responses were left blank or simply just wrote "no", which is great to hear since this means that council has their priorities on track and that we're approaching a more balanced metagame. That being said, those who responded to this question raised concerns about a diverse array of mons but they were merely stray mentions. Most mentioned mon was Sandy Shocks with a grand total of two mentions due to its impact on the builder because of Tera. Every other Pokémon only got one mention, the list of mentions can be seen below for anyone curious

mentions

Shocks - 2
Thundurus-Therian - 1
Zeraora - 1
Zygarde-10% - 1
Hoopa - 1
Reuniclus - 1
Mienshao - 1
Necrozma - 1
Dracozolt - 1
Sharpedo-Mega - 1
Diggersby - 1
Haxorus - 1

We will take these concerns very seriously and will monitor these aforementioned mons' impact on the metagame going forward (except probably Hoopa to be honest, that is going to need some convincing).

Out of the current RUBL list, are the any Pokémon that you would like to see retested?

Like the previous question, the majority of responses were left blank or said "no". The ones who did respond had a solid support for a Salamence and Mega-Aerodactyl unban, while also having mentions of Bisharp and Latias. As I said in the Discord server, Salamence was never really given a true shot to see if it was broken or not since it was banned at the exact same time Light Clay was, which was one of the driving factors that made Salamence too strong for the tier. Mega Aerodactyl was a contentious issue in the meta on whether or not it was unhealthy for the tier. Although we will reconsider looking at it again, not much has changed to suggest that new counter-play to Mega Aerodactyl has emerged or that the old counter-play can deal with it better. Bisharp and Latias will probably not be looked at again until Tera is banned since they're simply too strong for the tier because of it. Other stray mentions include Gengar, Heracross-Mega, Keldeo, and Porygon-Z.

How do you feel about Terastallization in the current metagame?

note: the qualified pool is 66.6% pro-ban
One of the most concerning issues facing the tier today is Terastallization and its massive impact on the metagame. Although there exists a vocal minority that is anti-ban, the vast majority of responses are pro-ban with qualified responders being 66.6% pro-ban and the total amount being 73.3% pro-ban. Council will continue to have discussions on how to proceed with this, as taking action on a generational gimmick is uncharted territory for us.

Thanks to the people who responded to the survey,

 

[Adriyun]

Hello my fans i am here to nom 2 Mons
1.

Mega Sceptile B- -> B/B+
Mega sceptile has proved to be a dangerous threat in Many Battles this meta. Having a 145 speed tier it has the highest speed stat in the meta. Mega Sceptile also has a base 145 special attack with a strong stab in leaf storm, Sadly its strongest special dragon stab is dragon pulse which still does enough damage for 2khos on many grass resists. Mega Sceptile uses coverage moves to beat its switch ins or force a tera. Focus Blast 2khos Max spd Mega Aggron, and okho’s coballion. Hp poison Hits tapu bulu HARD, hp poison 2khos bulu dealing 70-80% and forces tera or a switch. It 2khos Mega alt 100% with rocks, 76% to 2kho without. This Pokemon can adapt to meta shifts pretty well. Blissey dropping was bad, but it’s not seeing much use out of stall. It’s ability lightning rod, seeming pretty useless due to the 4x resistance to electric is actually beneficial. It switches into sandy shocks earth powers and if swapped in on a electric type, you gain a +1 boost to special attack letting you break fatter mons easier/okho straight up. . I am a tad bit biased if you know me, but I genuinely think this pokemon should be B/B+.

2.


Lucario C -> B/B-
Originally i would say this mon can stay here, but since tera is also staying… opinions have changed. Lucario is tldr: SD Tera normal Extreme speed. A +2 extreme speed with tera normal revenge kills/naturally kills many things
A few Calcs
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandy Shocks: 341-402 (109.6 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Normal Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 305-360 (104.8 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Hippowdon: 347-409 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 299-354 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It misses out on okhos vs Hippowdon and Slowbro from 100%, but getting one spike up or slowbro not being at 100% from having to switch into a teammate lets lucario sweep/break through teams. Having stab extreme speed with tera let’s it run an adamant nature over jolly killing anything that outspeeds. There isn’t much to say about this mon apart from how it breaks/revenge kills so much with its extreme speed and close combat. I’d like to see more people using it so we can have replays/showoffs for it, but just looking at it on paper it is kinda insane, and it stays that way for the most part.

that is all, gn

 

[georgebowserjr]

Mega-Altaria and Cresselia are now banned from NDRU! And, Mega-Aerodactyl and Salamence stay banned! Heat Rock becomes legal!

Where do I even start! Mega-Altaria has been a problem for the metagame since Scizor rose to UU, and has somehow survived 2 slates. Now that pokemon like Bisharp and Gengar have been banned, it is finally time for Mega-Altaria to go. Mega-Altaria had few checks like Slowbro, Physical Defensive Amoongus and Physical Defensive Tangrowth. However, Mega-Altaria can run a special attacking set, which the aforementioned checks lose to. Consistent special-attacking Mega-Altaria checks include Slowking and Blissey due to their really high Special Defensive stats. However, Mega-Altaria's high physical attack enables it to break past these answers after one Dragon Dance boost. The lack of reliable checks to both Mega Altaria sets make it an unhealthy presence in the tier. Other ways to slow down Mega Altaria include statusing it with burn or paralysis or outspeeding it with faster Pokemon. However, all these responses have a downside. Status is ignored by Refresh or Heal Bell sets, and is actively abused by Facade sets. Common scarfers like Mienshao and Zarude commonly lose the 1v1 to Mega Altaria, requiring either inaccurate or weak moves to break through if they outspeed. This versatility and power meant that players had to tiptoe around an unpredictable juggernaut with proper pivoting or by burning their Tera, neither of which contribute to making a Pokemon healthy. Therefore, Mega-Altaria had to be banned due to its high stats for the tier and lack of overlapping checks to its sets.




Cresselia has started to become a Gen 9 problem with its infamous Calm Mind + Stored Power set. It hasn't been viable in the past generations, but the addition of Terastalization allows it to switch between types (most commonly, from Psychic to Poison) and exploit their defensive benefit. Poison Tera gave it immunity to Toxic and helped it withstand Zarude Darkest Lariat (the most consistent response). With its toxic immunity, Cresselia can be difficult to handle after a few Calm Minds. Cresselia has very few checks: including Psyshock Slowbro and Slowking, Reuniclus and phazers like Hippowdon. All of these responses come at severe opportunity cost, and phasing is useless if Cresselia is the last mon standing. If anything, the most proactive response to Cresselia was to start Calm Minding with your own Pokemon and pray you live the incoming Stored Power spam (and out-damage it in return). The lack of adequate responses makes Cresselia overpowered for RU and too much for the tier.



Thundurus-Incarnate is another mon we decided to vote on, purely because of how dangerous a set up sweeper is. While survey responses were lukewarm about it, it can be game-ending with high speed and access to Prankster Nasty Plot. Thundurus-I also wields decent coverage moves, such as Focus Blast and Grass Knot. Notable checks include Hippowdon and Gastrodon. Though hit hard by +2 Grass Knot, they can use toxic to weaken Thundurus-I for a teammate. Even common offensive Pokemon like Sandy Shocks can deal with Thundurus-I, even if the match up is shaky. Terastalization could push Thundurus-I to the edge with Tera types like Water and Fairy offering solid, neutral typings that can let it withstand super-effective Rock and Ice type attacks. Offensive Teras like Electric, Grass or Ice boost power of STAB moves or coverage options to hit common responses like Hippowdon or Gastrodon harder. For now, Thundurus-I will remain on the watchlist.


The council decided to re-examine the bans on Mega-Aerodactyl and Salamence. You can find a detailed reason why here for Mega-Aerodactyl and here for Salamence (Thanks to Runo and Dorron for writing these). Due to the upcoming NDPL tournament and their likelihood of remaining broken, we decided to keep these two banned, and keep the tour somewhat bearable to play.




Oh and also UU banned Drought so you get to use this now, not like it's gonna be any use though.

Thanks to Runo and Velcroc for helping. (IM SHIT)

Tagging the goats Kris and Marty to implement!

 

[Adriyun]

mscep will be happy to hear the news.

 

[ASsayf]

what the fuck, National dex ru is playable ? Someone can explain me how to play this metagame ?