Metagame National Dex Monotype Metagame Discussion

[maroon]

OP Stolen from SS monotype

Art made by Jolly Togekiss ^-^
​

Welcome to the National Dex Monotype metagame discussion thread!
National Dex Monotype on Showdown

Monotype is a really simple concept; you build a team of six Pokemon sharing one common type and fight against teams with the same restriction. You are allowed to use Pokemon with dual-typing on a team represented by either type, but every other Pokemon must share at least one type with the dual-typed Pokemon. For example, you can use Gyarados, a Water / Flying type Pokemon, on a Water or a Flying team. If you choose Gyarados, you can also use Jellicent, a Water / Ghost type Pokemon, and create a Water team with the two of them, but you cannot use Noivern, a Flying / Dragon type Pokemon, on that team because it does not share a type with Gyarados and Jellicent.

Using six Pokemon of the same type can lead to some interesting team archetypes, and it challenges teambuilders to make sure the common weaknesses a certain type of Pokemon share are covered as best as possible. This metagame allows for all kinds of Pokemon to be viable against top threats, so be imaginative. As you play, you'll find many unique threats that aren't common in the usage based tiers.

The National Dex Monotype metagame features builds from all playstyles—Offense, Balance, and Stall. The playstyle will often reflect the Pokemon available on that type. For instance, there are many strong offensive Fighting types, but the type lacks reliable defensive Pokemon. As such, a Stall Fighting-type team is hard to make, while Offensive Fighting is more likely to be viable. The best Monotype players build and play a wide variety of types, using teams that capitalize on the strengths of an individual type. Forcing your favorite type into an archetype that it will struggle to pull off is a good way to lose matches and get frustrated!

Tiering and Discussion
National Dex Monotype has its own tiering, which is based on the tiering philosophy. The metagame is led by a seven-man council, each with an equal say in tiering decisions.

You may find the current banlist in the National Dex Monotype entry on the Smogdex.

This thread is meant for discussion—not just requesting bans! That said, if you feel anything not on these banlists is too overpowered for the meta, this is the place to discuss it. All tiering discussion should be framed within the context of the National Dex Monotype Tiering Philosophy, which you can find below. Additionally, if you want to recommend a Pokemon for suspect testing, include some evidence and reasoning why you think said Pokemon is broken. Just saying something like, "I think Kyurem-Black should be banned because it has base 170 Attack." is a post that will get deleted, and it won't get you taken seriously. Back up your claim with replays showing how the Pokemon is overpowered in practice. Tell us how it interacts against other types/playstyles, what checks and counters it, its role on the team type(s) where it's played (going back to the Kyurem-Black example, how does it play on Mono-Ice vs. Mono-Dragon?), and so on. If you need any advice or have any questions on things you think are broken but are unsure what the best way to post is, contact a member of the National Dex Monotype Council either through message or on Showdown in the National Dex Monotype room.

As a final thought, before you post, think about what you're saying and whether it adds anything to the conversation or sparks discussion. If not, add to it until it does. Let's make an effort to have fun while keeping a certain level of mature conversation!

Special note: This thread is for metagame discussion, not tiering philosophy discussion. If you would like to propose a policy change then please start a private message with the members of the National Dex Monotype council. If the council would like to field general discussion on the tiering philosophy then it will make a post requesting input from the community.

In this thread, we encourage people to share their thoughts on elements that they think could be potentially unhealthy in order to help balance out the metagame.​

 

[|Powerman|]

Deep Dish Analysis

#1 Tapu Lele

Bon Appetit!

Overview
With a dual stab of Psychic and Fairy, 130 special attacks, 95 speed, and psychic terrain, Tapu Lele has established itself as one of the best wall breakers and a top sweeper in national dex monotype. Supposed checks such as Alolan Muk, and Aegislash while they can switch, can't exactly greatly check teammates such as Mega Gallade and Victini on Psychic, and Tapu Koko and Mimikyu on Fairy. So with Spectrier going soon (I bet my first born child) Lets dig in more into its role and sets!
Sets:

Choice Specs
WIth a Choice Specs attached, not many Pokémon can actually switch into Tapu Lele. Blanket pokemon such as Toxapex and Blissey get dumpstered by its Psychic stab whether it may be Psychic or Psyshock allowing teammates such as Victini, Tapu Koko, and Latios to thrive. This set has counters such as Aegislash and Alolan Muk, but Pokémon such as Mega Gallade and Tapu Koko can deal with them to a degree.

Fightinium Z
With the fighting Z crystal not many Pokémon, besides Aegislash, no Pokémon would want to switch into it, even Pokémon such as Protean Greninja and Urshifu, who can potentially force it out would never dare to switch into Lele. And Pokémon that can usually check Lele defensive such as Alolan Muk and Ferrothorn fear a KO from an All Out Pummeling.

Choice Scarf
Finally Choice Scarf, with a now speed tier of 475 it outspeeds otherwise faster pokemon such as Greninja and Urhsifu, who would otherwise KO it with ease with their moves. Also it can act as a great revenge killer taking out the likes of Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Lopunny while taking out other scarfers such as Exadrill and Landorus-T.

Teammates

Psychic

Pokémon such as Mega Gallade and Victini can pressure special walls that trouble Tapu Lele. Mega Gallade easily pressures special walls such as Blissey and Alolan Muk due to its fighting typing. And Victini can easily pressure steels such as Scizor and Celesteela with V-Create, and use Bolt Strike to threaten bulky waters such as Pelliper and Mantine.

Deoxys Speed can set up Dual Screens to more easily allow Tapu Lele to have more longevity and Taunt is used for annoying status such as paralysis and Toxic, and stealth rock to more dig into its checks to they loose the ability to come in more often.

Slowbro can provide easy teleport support due to its great bulk and minus priority. Also it provides a great blanket check to physical threats such as Alolan Muk.

Jirachi with its Iron Heads can threaten Pokémon such as Tyranitar, Mega Diancie, and Alolan Ninetails. Also its natural bulk and useful resistances can switch into Pokémon such as Mega Pinsir, Mega Loppunny, and Rillaboom.

Fairy

With Dual Screens and a steel typing, good defenses, and other support moves such as Thunder Wave, Foul Play, and Spikes, This helps Tapu Lele wallbreak better and threaten physical setup sweepers like Mega Scizor and Mega Gallade.

Tapu Lele is able to pressure pokemon such as Aegislash by continuity volt switching to Pokémon that force it out such as Klefki. Also only pokemon besides Azumarill and Klefki with a Steel neutrality.

Tapu Bulu is great physical attacker to kill ground types such as Hippowdon and Gastrodon, its power wood hammers pressures Pokémon such as Greninja, Close Combat threatens steels such as Heatran, and Bisharp, and Horn Leech is a great move to regen health while still attacking.

(Who knew that a quadruple steel Pokémon would be the main offensive counter to steel) But yeah Mega Diancie is a great pokemon when it comes to killing steels, while it can't come in, it can KO pokemon such as Heatran, Scizor, and Ferrothorn with the combo of Earth Power and Mystical Fire. Under Psychic Terrain provided by Tapu Lele Mega Diancie becomes especially dangerous due to its newfound immunity to Priority such as Weavile's and Mamoswine's Ice Shard, Bisharps Sucker Punch, and Especially Azumarill's Aqua Jet, and Scizor's Bullet Punch.

Mimikyu greatly threatens ghost types such as Spectrier and Blacepholon due to shadow Sneak. It is a great revenge cleaner due to shadow sneak, and a Great partner to Tapu lele due to killing resists such as Slowbro and Victini.

So wow we dug in into this delicious dish. And next time you play NDM keep this threat in mine!​

 

[Maskun]

Heyo this is Maskun with a National Dex Metagame Report. I'll probably post these after every big tour like the one we just had. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-round-14-grand-finals-won-by-maskun.3682291/

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS HOW I VIEW THE METAGAME CURRENTLY.


Let's start with the early parts of the tour that defined the metagame.

Holy Trinity Era
Dark, Water, and Dragon would make up the trinity. These three types in my opinion would be the strongest to surface the first three rounds of the tournament. Let's go through each one.

Dark
Dark would probably be the standout favorite for users to use. One of the main reasons was because of this froggy . Greninja's usage was so critical in dark since it was a staple mon within SM. Its powerful ability in Protean to give any move a STAB power boost. Also, Greninja's moveset is versatile leading to different sets and leaves the opponent guessing. The other staple mon with the fish ninja is . This is the other powerhouse in the metagame. With its ability Unseen Fist, Pokémon with Protect are not safe. Also Urshifu is able to shred through most frail Pokémon with a Choice Scarf and Wicked Blow combination. Dark was also able to run dual screens with , and the rise of HO Screens Dark came into the picture. Dark was a type that had to be carefully considered when teambuilding because of Greninja and Urshifu.

Water
Water would be a solid pick for many battlers to select from the many types. Water just like Dark had the aforementioned Greninja back in this tier to pack a punch to many types. In regards to this, the other Rapid-Strike would cause a mighty dent into teams especially on rain teams. However, the clear danger to many types that would cause a one-sided affair for any balanced or offensive water team to be a tier above is this Pokémon, . Dracovish would be the star that would cause battlers to ensure their team would be able to beat a Scarf Dracovish. This Pokémon would be almost used in every water team showing how powerful it would be in battle.

Dragon
I am going to make a strong case for Dragon over the likes of Steel and Psychic. While Steel and Psychic had answers for most Dragon types with their offensive and defensive Pokémon, Steel's only answer to Dracovish was Ferrothorn who could be slowly chipped by other powerful Dragon Types. With the emergence of Z Moves and Megas back into the tier, with Kommonium Z would cause havoc unto Steel teams after chipping down all their defensive threats with Dracovish. A solid Dragon team 70% of the time would be able to beat a Steel team. Psychic on the other hand would use Tapu Lele and Mega Latio/as to give Dragon teams problem especially Choice Scarf Tapu Lele. The hard part would be Dragon teams opting into Dragalge to check Choice Scarf Tapu Lele. Choice Specs Tapu Lele would also lose to Choice Scarf Dracovish forcing Tapu Leles to run Choice Scarf.

In my opinion the rise of Dragon to be such a formidable type in this early part of the metagame is due to Dracovish. Dracovish could singlehandedly cause types to become useless especially if using a set like this:

Set

Dracovish @ Protective Pads
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fishious Rend
- Psychic Fangs
- Substitute
- Stone Edge

Here is a replay showcasing how players would start to use Dracovish not only with a Choice Band: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexmonotype-1285792115

These three types helped to define the early parts of the metagame after Monotype Premier League took place. The ban on Dracovish shook up the meta once again.

The Final Five
With the ban on Dracovish, I want to quickly mention the rise of five types that took a hold on the metagame.

The ban on Dracovish would cause Dragon teams to lose significant power in their offensive capabilities, and Fairy would raise in usage. With the heavy usage of Water, Dark, and Dragon teams, Fairy teams would be relevant once again since Steel teams would appear not too frequently. with it not being banned in this tier would help in the Poison matchup. The return of would help to bolster the offensive capabilities of the type. This Pokémon would also learn Mystical Fire to help deal with pesky Steel types.

Due to the high usage of Water and Dark, Grass would see itself joining the party. Grass would gain some new tools since was not available in the Sword&Shield games. Also the addition of , and it's powerful combo of a priority Grassy Glide in its Grassy Surge would cause Grass teams to lose their priority on . would also be a helpful partner to take down any pesky Dark and Dragon types. One can also not forget who would help a lot of matchups especially the Steel matchup with it learning Earth Power in Generation 8.

Flying would be an interesting type moving forward since it always had to run in most teams to avoid the Dracovish problem. With Dracovish being gone, Mantine would be seen less. Now Flying teams would have more variety to build than ever before. Flying teams still suffered from 6 Pokémon Syndrome where it was hard to find 6 Pokémon because how useful each Pokémon was in each certain type matchup. On account of this, Flying would suffer from being matchup fish'd where one would have certain Pokémon that would be useless because the other team had checks/counters to it.

Psychic would be another solid type to use in this meta. Like with the Fairies, would be an available asset to many Psychic teams. The return of Z Moves would cause players to guess certain movesets on and . Psychic would super versatile in how they wanted to build their teams. Teams could shift to using over and . For Psychic the world was their oyster, they just had to ensure they would cover necessary checks and prepare for . Greninja would disturb many Psychic teams because of its powerful STAB Dark Pulse, and the item had to considered carefully to ensure their Pokémon would not fall one by one.

Steel would rise in usage with these other four. This type with all the problems would function very well taking any Fairy team out with little problems. The Flying matchup would be dependent on the Flying Pokémon. The Psychic matchup would prove to be a skill matchup since each type had Pokémon to cause problems for each type. would be a core component to many Steel teams because its typing Steel/Ghost would help circumvent any Pokémon clicking a free fighting type move. was another interesting Pokémon that struggled to maintain its HP if it got chipped but carried such heavy offensive power it decimated any frail Pokémon that could take a Double Iron Bash. The return of would help give Steel teams priority in its boosted Bullet Punch from its ability Technician. The struggle with Steel teams would be to create a stable Hyper Offensive team. Most Steel teams were balanced with a few exceptions.

These five types would rise in usage with Dark, Water, and Dragon establishing a 7 type metagame where carefully choosing your type and building for certain types would be essential for its success.

Spooky Darkhorse Type
One cannot forget to mention Ghost, and the ban before . Ghost in National Dex Monotype would be a type that others would consider slightly relevant because of Spectrier. Spectrier was a monster that help keep afloat the offensive power of Ghost teams. With 3-4 viable sets, Spectrier would become a problem for many types like Psychic and Steel since it did not have reliable ways to get rid of the horse quickly before it got rolling. With it would also weaken many Steel and Psychic teams due to its incredible speed plus a Choice Scarf would make it a monster in the speed department. With returning to this tier, teams would be able to find ways not to get hazard stacked. Also Sableye-Mega would be a solid defensive option to annoy the other teams. Ghost would definitely lose the Dark matchup, but it could easily take games off any other type because how powerful offensively it was. After the ban of Spectrier in Round 6, Ghost fell off in usage. Despite this, the metagame continued to stay where it is with some new types entering into the picture.

Here today is where I feel like where the metagame is.

No doubt about it Dark and Water continue to be fan favorites for many players, but the usage of Dark has fallen off because how easily punished it can be prepped for now. Psychic, Steel, Flying, Grass, and Fairy continue to be solid types. Dragon has fallen off after the Dracovish ban and slowly is spiraling downward since it is very susceptible to losing to the other 6 types with good preparation.

There is one type before I dive into how I would rank the types in today's metagame.

Normal
Normal is a type that has been slowly creeping with dominating performances over all the other types except for Fighting which is a clear type disadvantage. I'll probably do a video over the rise of Normal and why it needs to considered as a top type. At the end of the tour, Normal held the highest win rate out of all the types with a whopping 66.07%. Even though it was only used 56 times, the battles it was used in it won a lot of times compared to the other types. Normal received their returning party from the Sun&Moon metagame like with it learning new moves like Triple Axel and U-Turn. would return giving the type ways to handle the Fighting matchup. Also its versatile moveset would help to support the type in battles where a certain move was needed. In general, Normal's two defensive cores or with has helped the type maintain such defensive prowess. It causes types to struggle with these two Pokémon especially when Normal is not considered in the picture of preparation. If the player using a Normal team uses it correctly and pivots their offensive Pokémon in correctly, most types will struggle to deal with their damage output.

With this out of the way, here is where I would rank the types currently on 4/20/21 which would reflect the overall metagame of National Dex Monotype.

Ranking

S Tier

A Tier

B Tier

C Tier

D Tier:

If you've read all of this, I thank you for the time you've spent to read this.

Here is where I've used most of my data. Click here!

 

[mushamu]

hey I wanna write about a Pokémon which I think should be banned from nat dex mono. Gmolt is fucking insane in monotype just because of the lack of counterplay it has when it’s slapped onto the best type in the tier. In natdex u have z moves which means it can p much nuke something after clicking nasty plot turn 1 while living almost every hit to the moon and back. This combined with its really good bulk giving it many setup opportunities and its taunt means you’re often losing a pokemon when this thing clicks nasty plot. Rest makes it crazy at winning long games as well; taunt gmoltres counterplay in mono is a meme when you can’t answer it
defensively reliably. It shits on multiple top types completely while putting in a lot of progress against others. Steel, flying, poison, psychic, and ground all pretty much die to it, while it’s still a pain in the ass if you load against it with water or fire etc just because it’s turbo fat.

its noticeably metagame warping when you have to put things like curse pjab muk or nihilego on poison or rockium z Garchomp on ground just to not get 6-0ed by it. In the flying mirror, the faster taunt gmoltres generally takes the game, as the offensive mons can’t switch in and the defensive mons all get broken down by taunt, leaving you with gmoltres itself to check opposing gmoltres. It’s a Pokémon that wins every long game ever and forces 6v5 scenarios extremely easy that is coincidentally on the best type in tier.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexmonotype-1443635946 - maroons gmoltres answer was literally just gmoltres itself. Had it not been for gmoltres then maroon would have lost at least 1 pokemon after it got a free nasty plot (after taking 60% from thundy ts volt).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexmonotype-1437285856 - gmoltres winning a long game extremely easily. If hyper was taunt then he just 6-0ed at preview. This basically makes nihilego mandatory on poison which is really awful considering nihilego is hard to fit in natdex to the point where I’d say it’s being used for gmoltres and gmoltres mainly.

I think it’s ridiculous preparing for gmoltres flying in this tier considering how good the type already is. It’s really unhealthy and makes preparing for flying much more of a nightmare than it already is.

 

[Hyperspace12]

I would like to add on to the fact that flying in general is op as fuck
megazard(y)+gtres has been spammed as fuck bc it destroys literally whatever u want in the meta. also doesnt help that they're both extremely splashable in what moves they run.

mzy can pick and choose what it wants to hit with its 3rd slot(ur gonna need flame solar beam roost), whether its scorching sands for defensive pex, eq for amuk gking and tran, hpelec(naurr) for mantine, focus blast - u get the point.
gtres has like 2 billion sets it can run successfully that all 6-0 whatever they want, off the top of my head theres like subnp(get in vs a slow mon and click), double dance(completely tears through most offense teams, even if ur not z u can run shit like wp/sitrus/idfk), resttalk(breaks fat rly easily since fiery wrath is a hax magnet and ur prob gonna flinch eventually), taunt np(shuts down non icium z pex and other phazers like heatran), and oh also theres that heat offensive resto chesto that ff2 brought.

moreover flying's offense is incredibly hard to punish cuz u have literally the best defogger in gliscor so gl with keeeping rocks up consistently; gliscor+steela walls like half the meta lmfao. its incredibly stupid to look at a team and go, okay, i need to be able to check 5 gtres sets(this will not happen unless ur using like pjabmuk+nihi psn, fat fini+gren+empo water, ur own gtres+brokens, etc), mega zard y(forces a faster mon with a rock move cuz have fun walling this without spd pex/blissey), thundurus t(in comparison with the others its not a big deal but boots thundy is an incredible breaker when paired with these two cuz just about everything that beats zard hates thundurus), and tornadus t(finally ppl realize this isnt shit and its actually a threat, u force progress so easily with taunt+toxic, and np sets are threatening too(haha it can run np fly z!!!!fun fun fun))

if u look thru replays and usage stats of ndpl you'll see that flying fucking dominates the usage, with the majority of wins coming from the same landot+mzy+torn squad or the gliscor+mantine+maero team(dont use landorus incarnate that mon's shit).

its essentially bcome bring flying or bring a type that should beat flying but u could still lose rofl(fat psn gets rolled by resttres, rain hard loses to any fly with mantine/mzy which.. every flying team runs, fat water gets overran by gtres+zard+thundurus, and so on)

whenever u see gtres it bcomes a game of
"guess the set cuz if u guess wrong u will lose but haha even if u guess right u couldnt do anything abt it"

 

[roxie]

Looking at previous bans, Galarian Moltres, Spectrier, and Dragapult, it’s extremely hard for me to figure out that those individual Pokémon were the issue. Dragapult being underpredictable, Spectrier boosted with Ghost or Normal Z, and Galarian Moltres dropping a fat Hurricane Z is due to the fact of Z moves. Ghost relying on Gengar as the fastest and most consistent Pokémon on the type and it’s really awkward. Current metagame has stuff like Z Tapu Lele and a whole Libero STAB Cinderace that can obliterate checks with Double Edge, Zen, and even Pyro Ball + Z. (I mean what on Poison for example reliable checks a Z-Zen Cinderace). Can someone explain why banning these Pokémon was the best precedent over Z moves?

 

[Illecent Excaliburn]

Looking at previous bans, Galarian Moltres, Spectrier, and Dragapult, it’s extremely hard for me to figure out that those individual Pokémon were the issue. Dragapult being underpredictable, Spectrier boosted with Ghost or Normal Z, and Galarian Moltres dropping a fat Hurricane Z is due to the fact of Z moves. Ghost relying on Gengar as the fastest and most consistent Pokémon on the type and it’s really awkward. Current metagame has stuff like Z Tapu Lele and a whole Libero STAB Cinderace that can obliterate checks with Double Edge, Zen, and even Pyro Ball + Z. (I mean what on Poison for example reliable checks a Z-Zen Cinderace). Can someone explain why banning these Pokémon was the best precedent over Z moves?

I think the important distinction here is a Centralizing Pokémon(s) and a Powerful Tool in a Meta.
Yes, Z's will be inherently out of balance due to the fact that Gen 8 Pokémon were not designed with z-moves in mind. Pult, G-Molt, and Spectrier are extreme cases of this. These mons, however, were already very good in their own right, just the versatility in Z moves sent them over the edge and eventually lead to each of their respective bans.
Z-moves as a whole (In MY Opinion) were not the root cause of these problems, they simply added on to the power of those respective mons, who more than likely would not have been as powerful with Z moves. This does not mean Z-moves in general are the problem with Pokémon.

As you stated, Cinderace is a very versatile and powerful option on fire teams because of Z-moves. Z-psychium eliminates many threats fire normally has trouble dealing with, such as Diance-mega, Toxapex, etc. Cinderace in and of itself, however, while being a good Pokémon, isn't sent over the edge like the previous 3. For one, Cinderace once it's z move is spent and/or wasted is much less potent and powerful. Against Poison, juggling your psychic resist and Pex is viable counterplay to z-zen headbut, as after cinder uses it's nuke, it's walled by toxapex outside of flinches, which pex can negate by switching out. Against Rock, Swapping Diance immediately ensures that cinder will comfortably die if played around (not mega-ing for the defense & clicking your choice of Moonblast or D-Storm). In conjunction to this, Cinderace faces heavy z-move competition from Volcarona and Victini, which can check the same Pokémon Cinderace can , relying on situation instead of prediction.

Dragapult, as per your example, had Dragon Dance sets that ran through ALL types, not just ghost's/dragon's bad mu's, and Z's allowed it to bypass whatever wall/check it needed to in order to ensure victory. Dragapult also faced little to no z-move competition, as common z-users for ghost usually ran Scarf/Specs or Life Orb (Gengar and Blacephaloon), while on dragon Kommo-o was the only real competition, which paled to putl being able to threaten fairy Pokémon, where kommo-o's z became a guessing game when the opposing team had a good fairy. As such, they aren't as comparable as "z's make them broken", it's more Z's add to whatever the mon brings, and if it's already at the very top of the Meta/Viability, a Z-move may push it over the edge & make it banworthy.

I could go into more detail comparing problem Pokémon that become better with z's, but my point is that while these Pokémon are all good in their own right, the benefits z-moves give them either slightly add to their already high viability (Lele, Greninja and Zeraora, for example), or the z-move in and of itself makes the Pokémon highly viable (in the case of Cinderace, Kommo-o, and Manaphy)

 

[roxie]

"Simply switching out" is easier said than done. Cinderace threatens all five of the other Pokemon, nearly OHKOing Nidoking, using Alolan Muk / Mega Venusaur / non-Scarf Nihilego (Sucker Punch has a chance to revenge Nihilego pretty easily after SR+pivoting Heatran in). This whole "competition" thing does not justify why an element is broken. Any Pokemon can face competition with other Z-movers theoretically but my concern is Z-moves impact on the tier warranting bans on the former three bans: Spectrier / Galarian Moltres / Dragapult. Like "SS Pokemon weren't designed to be around Z-moves" sounds silly. I highly doubt the Pokemon company was designing RBY-ORAS Pokemon to be 100% comfortable with Z-moves, but this is National Dex, a metagame that squeezes literally every generational Pokemon + with mixed elements.

"I think the important distinction here is a Centralizing Pokémon(s) and a Powerful Tool in a Meta." Like reflecting on the SS Metagame on behalf of Dragapult, Spectrier, and Galarian Moltres, yeah they are good Pokemon but not unhealthy. This "powerful tool" allows these Pokemon to excel tremedously. Look at Spectrier with the same Poison reference, Normalium Z Hyper Beam obliterates Drapion (or even Galarian Moltres on Flying), why wasn't the "simply switching out" arguments used for Spectrier? Like this goes for anything. Z-moves need to go or ban literally every Pokemon that benefits from them in such a way.

 

[Illecent Excaliburn]

Cinderace ans Spectrier in this scenario are different, with cinderace it needs the z in order to wall break poison, otherwise Toxapex and even physically defensive Venusaur can just wall Cinder, whereas Spectier Clicked Nasty Plot/Calm Mind behind sub and was guaranteed to melt through the majority of teams WITHOUT clicking Z, only using it when something like a Blissey or Muk-A was on the screen. Spectrier had little to no counterplay while Cinderace has some semblance, albeit harder to pull off, counterplay.

And in regard to comparing SS Monotype to Natdex Mono, it's not completely fair to compare them 1:1, as the differences in the metagames manifest in different power scales and META Defining Pokémon. As an example; Melmetal. Melmetal in SS Mono was banned due to the lack of defensive options and offensive counterplay for a vast majority of types, as not everything had ways of stomaching Double Iron Bash, especially with Flinches and varying sets involved. In natdex mono, however, Melmatal is legal and somewhat of a niche Pokémon, scraping the lower ranks in viability on one of the best types in the game. The much larger pool of Pokémon, as well as the access of tools in the form of Mega's and Z's allow for types to have both offensive and defensive answers to Melmetal, and as such it is barely even discussed when talking about broken Pokémon in the tier. the 3 mons in this argument are coincidently potent and scaled similarly to how they would be in Natdex Mono, but as these Pokémon Abuse Z moves they weren't designed for ON TOP OF how viable they were in a National Dex setting proved to much for the tier, where in SS Mono all 3 are relatively fine if not worse off because the tools that made them over the top do not exist.

Different Metagames call for different scaling of Pokémon, and as such different bans will be implemented for the health of each respective metagame. Z moves are like any good item such as HDB or choice items, there will be Pokémon that benefit from them immensely to the point that it may warrant more attention, either teambuilding wise or metagame health wise, but simply banning a tool that's main use is abusing RNG and has non-niche counterplay in and of itself is not healthy. Z-moves disappearing would decimate viability for a myriad of types and hurt the metagame much more than it would help.

 

[style.css]

Looking at previous bans, Galarian Moltres, Spectrier, and Dragapult, it’s extremely hard for me to figure out that those individual Pokémon were the issue. Dragapult being underpredictable, Spectrier boosted with Ghost or Normal Z, and Galarian Moltres dropping a fat Hurricane Z is due to the fact of Z moves. Ghost relying on Gengar as the fastest and most consistent Pokémon on the type and it’s really awkward. Current metagame has stuff like Z Tapu Lele and a whole Libero STAB Cinderace that can obliterate checks with Double Edge, Zen, and even Pyro Ball + Z. (I mean what on Poison for example reliable checks a Z-Zen Cinderace). Can someone explain why banning these Pokémon was the best precedent over Z moves?

Z Moves weren't ever considered to be a bannable mechanic last generation, nor should it be this generation. The difference is the power creep of the Pokemon that GameFreak is creating, not that Z moves exist.

The reason Pokemon like Spectrier, Dragapult and Moltres-Galar were banned is because they were broken combined with Z moves. Any other Pokemon can use Z moves as well but the difference between one being bannable and one not is the Pokemon itself. By that logic Z Spectrier and Z Toxapex are the same threat level. Remove Z from the situation and the banned Pokemon are still going to run the tier if they were unbanned.

 

[Bka Onon]

Hello People of NDM! It is I, better known as Bka Onon
As we all know, Gen 8 is ending tomorrow, this was a fun generation for ND Metas, and I would just like to share every (decently good) thing I've built in the tier we call home, National Dex Monotype!

NATIONAL DEX MONOTYPE TEAM DUMP (teams have my fav mon of that type next to it cuz im too lazy to insert the type logo :>)
By Bka Onon (featuring some other people)

Bug
https://pokepast.es/3cc9ff7935725c25 - Webs Ft. Mega Pinsir

Notes: Ribombee is the best web setter in the game and Mega Heracross, Volcarona and Vivillon greatly appreciate the webs in setting up and sweeping.


Dark
https://pokepast.es/218d4ad670b03a9a - Screens Ft. Z-Happy Hour Greninja

Notes: Grimmsnarl's Screens allows Zarude, Greninja, Hydreigon and Tyranitar to setup and sweep easily.

https://pokepast.es/b1204c1c978b4037 - Balance ft. Sub-Plot Hydreigon

Notes: Muk, Mandibuzz and Sableye form a great defensive core complementing Greninja, Tyranitar and Hydreigon's dangerous offenses


Dragon
https://pokepast.es/306faf289e55ca4f - Screens Latias

Notes: Latias is a fast and decently bulky screens setter with Healing Wish and Defog for even more utility, Z-Kommo-o, Mega Altaria and CM Latios can setup more easily under these screens.

https://pokepast.es/172e77b007056374 - Suicide Lead Duraludon

Notes: Duraludon sets up rocks, paralyses the opponent and has Steel Beam for suicide, the other pokemon then output good damage whilst having good bulk.


Electric
https://pokepast.es/9bb83d5f5085c8c8 - Raichu Electric ft. Z Zeraora

Notes: Pretty standard electric team with Z-Zeraora and Terrain Raichu for sweeping. The team also has good momentum overall.

https://pokepast.es/8314da85151eec3d - Balance (credits to style.css)

Notes: Team built by style.css, features Regieleki over Raichu, and the team is more moving and is bulkier overall.


Fairy
https://pokepast.es/01875429fcb64d63 - Webs ft. Specs Lele & SD Bulu

Notes: Ribombee is the best web setter in the game, the whole team takes advantage of lowering the opponent's speed and throwing off massive attacks.

https://pokepast.es/9e6db64cfb25d135 - Screens ft. Togekiss

Notes: Klefki sets up webs for easier setup by Bulu, Azumarill, Togekiss. Togekiss provides a ground immunity and good flying offense.


Fighting
https://pokepast.es/c464080d54ff9ad5 - Standard ft. Breloom

Notes: This is a pretty standard fighting team, Cobalion sets up rocks, Breloom is very strong utility and offense with priority, Terrakion is a good scarfer, Kommo-o, Gallade and Keldeo are great offense.


Fire
https://pokepast.es/cbb969b295daf5f3 - Screens Rotom ft. Z-Victini


Notes: Rotom's Screens allows for easy setup with Volcarona, Victini, and Zard-X to throw off monsterous attacks under Torkoal's Sun.


Flying
https://pokepast.es/37c0364e43059f13 - Balance ft. Swellow

Notes: Strong attackers in Z Thunderus, Zapdos-G and Swellow for STAB Boomburst, it hits way harder than you think! Complemented by good walls in Gliscor, Celesteela and Mantine.

https://pokepast.es/300d0d52c836f82b - Mega Charizard Y Balance (credits to style.css) [ps: style if u read this yes i replaced MAero with Zardy :)]

Notes: Fast Paced offense with support from Gliscor and Torn-T, they can sponge hits and pivot in the threats to setup or do massive damage.

https://pokepast.es/00bbb733536a7343 - Triple Genie Flying

Notes: Mega Aerodactyl throws off deadly offense which is coupled with all 3 genies' traits to absorb and fight back. The team also features Sub-Z Zapdos-G which can throw off many pokemon like Toxapex off guard after boosts.


Grass
https://pokepast.es/ead0b1d2828fd256 - Standard ft. Serperior & Scarf Whimsicott

Notes: Serperior can be a big threat late game and Whimsicott can trick its scarf to ruin walls such as Ferrothorn, the rest of the team is pretty standard in sponging hits and dishing out offensive damage.


Ghost
https://pokepast.es/a85ae32e1efa2c47 - Sub-Z Gengar + Calm Mind MSableye

Notes: Will-o-Wisp + Calm Mind makes MSableye even more annoying, Snarl makes it so it can win CM Wars and also dish out damage if it boosts enough, it coupled with Corsola-G form an annoying defensive core. The other mons including Air Balloon SD Aegis and Sub-Z Gengar are deadly cleaners if used correctly.


Ground
https://pokepast.es/4ba88a168f9b846a - Sand Ground

Notes: The team is mostly standard for Sand, Mega Garchomp, Excadrill and Landorus-I are great offensive titans to spread a lot of damage. Eject Button Hippo helps get in Exca safely and Gastrodon gives the team a much needed water immunity.

https://pokepast.es/7baca3267851a078 - Sandless ft. Tr4pinch

Notes: Ground goes sandless in the form of pure offense. Tr4pinch is a niche pick which can be very valuable, it can remove some key targets that otherwise cause ground teams a lot of trouble. With Arena Trap coupled with First Impression, it can kill Rillaboom, Zarude, Greninja, and others if chipped enough.


Ice
https://pokepast.es/ce814068593779c6 - Avalugg Standard

Notes: Balance Ice team with Bulky Mons such as Avalugg, one of the true counters to Scizor for Ice with Iron Defense Body Press, and Sub Roost Kyurem, always great to have to shut down Water and other mons, Piloswine gives the team a rocker and neutrality to fire. The Team also has Scarf Weavile and Darmanitan-G, two great revenge killer, all of these also have Ninetales' Veil.


Normal
https://pokepast.es/35fe38a63a59cffc - Smeargle Hyper Offense

Notes: Not your standard Bulky Offense Normal, but instead we have fast offensive threats that take advantage of Smeargle's Sticky Webs and Stealth Rocks to wreck havoc.

https://pokepast.es/aab04e38244e90d1 - Mega Pidgeot Balance

Notes: The other Mega on Normal everyone forgets about (ooc but Mega Audino when), Work Up Unmissable Hurricanes make it a great tool against a lot of teams, Heat Wave and HP Ground let it deal with Steel types, Z Diggersby is a great nuke, and other pokemon provide alot of defensive utility.


Poison
https://pokepast.es/c0e41d24086ef442 - Z Nihilego Poison

Notes: Standard Poison but with Z Nihilego! It is a great counter to pokemon like Toxapex, Corviknight and Celesteela. Shuca Berry Pex allows it to go in the face of many ground types to scald and fish for a burn. Alomuk is a great Lele Check, Crobat is a great Ground Immunity and Nidoking is a threatening offensive presence.

https://pokepast.es/df362b012c7739e1 - Z Toxapex (credits to Neko)

Notes: Neko's Poison features Z Haze Toxapex and Scarfed Nihilego!, Z Haze lets Toxapex rack up damage and recover it all at once whilst nullifying the opponent's boosts, even if it has been taunt like in the case of Z-Kommo-o!


Psychic
https://pokepast.es/1c8e5095dd14234e - Webs Psychic

Notes: Webs Psychic is a niche playstyle which can however be very threatening. Orbeetle sets up webs and screens whilst stopping opposing hazards with Magic Coat. Mega Gallade, Boots Victini, Specs Lele use these webs to great advantage and dish out massive damage.


Rock
https://pokepast.es/ebcc89f53565ccfc - Very Standard Rock (I don't know how to innovate rock.)

Notes: Shuckle is a good hazard setter, Mega Diancie is a good hazard denier and overall good threat. Scarf Terrakion is an amazing revenge killer and Banded TTar is a good Pursuit Trapper. And Rhyperior is a good counter to Landorus and Scizor with defense investment and weakness policy.


Steel
https://pokepast.es/25de4d6ad9559f3a - Bulky Offense Steel

Notes: The Team Features Offensive Threats in Banded Melmetal, Scarf Excadrill and Scarf Heatran alongside their bulk, we also have Toxic Aegislash, and Celesteela for the ground immunity.

https://pokepast.es/40c7aefaf22549a7 - Screens Offensive

Notes: Klefki sets up screens to let the threats like Autotomize Celesteela, SD Scizor set up and scarf Heatran and Excadrill survive hits and dish out damage. The Jirachi sets lets it beat Mega Swampert, Kommo-o, etc.

https://pokepast.es/f3b37a4a2ca5c2e6 - Screens Offensive but... Weird

Notes: This is similar to the above but features sets such as Metal Sound Heatran and Weakness Policy Aegislash and also an uncommon pick in Lucario!

https://pokepast.es/b97e9314f788b7b4 - Steel Semi Stall (credits to SunnyBoi0)

Notes: This team has annoyed ladder enough, I'm not gonna explain stall.


Water
https://pokepast.es/70d2237ca3d08314 - Standard ft. Manaphy

Notes: This is a mostly standard Water Team but with a Manaphy feature! Z-Rain Dance + Tail Glow Makes it an insane sweeper being able to also threaten Grass Teams' after Rillaboom has been removed because of Psychic!

https://pokepast.es/be48c95c871332ce - Rainless ft. Z Greninja

Notes: Water Goes Rainless in a balance form! The team features Sub DD Mega Gyarados which is an insane sweeper, Scarf Urshifu is a great Revenge Killer, Psychium Z Greninja removes Mega Venusaur and Toxapex and Tapu Fini and Swampert provide great defensive utility.

https://pokepast.es/9ba77eaeb8a65742 - Water Stall (credits to SunnyBoi0)

Notes: This team has also annoyed ladder enough, and I'm not explaining this stall either.



TEAMS IM TOO LAZY TO WRITE FOR :)

https://pokepast.es/66a59db000c5fc4b - All Choice Electric
https://pokepast.es/9d44b5032c3629c0 - CLC Flying 1
https://pokepast.es/d6825eea1862500a - CLC Flying 2
https://pokepast.es/a5827e5ed8764057 - CLC Flying 3
https://pokepast.es/cbfd20b9459f8820 - CLC Psychic 1 (Weird MAlakazam Team)
https://pokepast.es/1cb0175b9dc313bc - CLC Psychic 2 (Double Mega Psychic)
https://pokepast.es/7060345313dca36b - CLC Dragon
https://pokepast.es/4cac269079cf3c18 - CLC Grass
https://pokepast.es/be6421e7736b9a15 - CLC Dark (Z Accupressure Drapion)
https://pokepast.es/e5939836be95b67d - HO Poison
https://pokepast.es/1042d1f6684199de - Flying ft. Vivillon
https://pokepast.es/b3f7299f11ea537d - Trick Room Steel
https://pokepast.es/ab9f4e9d378a0575 - Trick Room Fairy

 

[ken]

Shame no one has been posting too much since the gen has started for NDM. This early meta is still very hectic and brokens are everywhere but it's a nice change of pace from current gen Monotype, where teams feel quite repetitive due to lack of mons and some types literally just run the same 6 each time. I'm just going to share some thoughts on some typings I've used and explain them. (click on sprites for pastes)

/

Psychic

So I wanted to use Psychic considering the fact that Mega Medicham has access to CC now so no more are the days of missing or landing into a ghost type and losing 50% hp. Mega Metagross is legal (and probably should be banned) so I might as well use these seeing how they are some psychic's best mons at this current time. I was using Celebi on the first team since I didn't want to like lose into defensive water teams with Dondozo, which I've been caught lacking with in SV Monotype. The commonness between these 2 teams are that I have Tapu Lele, Alakazam and Jirachi on both teams, and a Deo forme if you wanna count those. Scarf Lele is honestly psychic's best combatant vs dark teams and the Tera Psychic, Psychic Terrain Psychic Lele actually just nukes everything in sight. Alakazam is what I call a "get out of jail free card" and will save you from being swept by everything not named DD Kyurem Black or anything with multi hit moves. And Z happy hour Jirachi has always been one of my favourite sets on the mon.

Ice

Ice in NDM is a lot more versatile I feel and I prefer running it here than in SV. Reason being that I just don't like hail setting Abomasnow and that's our only option in current gen. I appreciate Ninetales' speed and the quite consistent Hypnosis kek. The MVP of this team has to be Kyurem-Black. Kyurem-Black was already a mon that may not have the best defensive typing but it has a high hp stat with decent defence, now with snow's defence boost to ice types, Kyu-B has a much easier setting up and Loaded Dice + Icicle Spear is kinda ridiculous all things considered. Cetitan under snow + veil is also quite a menacing wincon and Ice Shard can just kill things after snow is finished.

Ghost

Ghost is strong in SV Monotype, it's even stronger in NDM, thanks to Mega Gengar and Flutter Mane. Mega Gengar is without a doubt getting banned, we just gotta wait but this mon is just so unfair with trapping, trapping is uncompetitive lmao. Flutter Mane is quick, hits hard, somewhat bulky on the special side and has a multitude of sets to run from Booster Energy with Calm Mind or Sub to Specs or Scarf. Mimikyu is always a staple on ghost teams, Disguise is also a "get out of jail free" card and handles the dark mu well. Ghostium Dragapult was sent to Ubers in gen 8 and it's still as scary as it was before, in addition to having Ghost Tera Blast as an alternative over the Z, I don't know if Pult stays in the tier in the long run. Ghost is also a lot more expansive than my current team with bulky mons like Mega Sableye, Skeledirge and somewhat Spiritomb while the offensive side has stuff like Spectrier, Houndstone, Gholdengo and Blacephalon. Very strong type rn.

Overall, I can say I've been having a positive experience so far with Gen 9 NatDexMono. Obviously, bans will need to take place so the tier becomes more competitive but once the tier settles, we're all gonna have a good time. Hope to see more people posting their experiences and thoughts on the meta in the near future and for now, good luck to all on the ladder!

Hey, TTK. NDM has a new forum w/ new metagame discussion thread here.