Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 65-77 (23.9 - 28.4%) -- 95.8% chance to 4HKO
I'm sorry but what is this calc showing? Tera Fighting Crunch into a Pokemon that resists Dark? This is literally meaningless and adds nothing to your argument. A lot of your argument isn't really Zamazenta-specific, a lot of these affect basically all offensive Pokemon, but Zamazenta is still able to rise above the rest due to its sheer power and stats.
 
Zamazenta isn't used often because it's linear and requires more prediction than you'd expect. High risk, high reward.
Banded, Tera Fighting Close Combat is barely more than a 3HKO versus offensive Lando-T, and the defense drops mean scarf Lando can check it fairly easily without needing to explode.
Please actually show some work when you make claims like this as it will at least lead into a point you may try to make.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 135-159 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Any offensive LandoT is a very poor check to banded Zama, as you can see how much it takes from a resisted hit AFTER intimidate. Any chip prior (aka rocks) puts it into range to be 2HKOd. Oh and banded ice fang makes that match up even worse as it's one good predict away from dropping offensive LandoT. Scarf LandoT can switch in ONE time into tera fighting close combat and not more.

Defensive Lando has an even easier time because the CC drops occur before Lando attacks.
Lando-T is very common so this is a huge hurdle for Zamazenta that he can't overcome without running subpar moves like Ice Fang, requiring more prediction.
Zama isn't staying in to keep hammering a defensive LandoT that switched into it. Lando is also tasked with handling so many other threats that it's very likely to get worn down between Zama attacks and its teammates. And yeah, ice fang sucks on most mons but for Zama it's a practical tool to dispatch a prominent switch in.

What's more, while Zamazenta has great defensive stats for an offensive Pokemon, the bland defensive typing means it has to rely on those raw stats more than resistances. It's really susceptible to chip and indirect damage and isn't great at switching into physical attacks more than once.
It's also not very strong outside of CC.
Pssst. Have you heard of this neat tool called switch moves? They're really hot right now. Try em.

Being serious, a well built team doesn't have much issue facilitating Zama. You're also not using xama defensively so I'm not sure what your point is. Also I generally hate the "it's vulnerable to chip" argument because it's so often used to try and downplay a great mon and it tends to be a nothing statement. Everything is vulnerable to chip, even top offensive threats. Zama has a high level of power that is also backed by stellar bulk for an offensive pokemon/wall breaker. That bulk makes revenging it tough. On top of an incredible speed tier that makes it an offense killer...

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 65-77 (23.9 - 28.4%) -- 95.8% chance to 4HKO

Zamazenta's coverage is so weak that offensive resists can switch in and do huge damage even if they're slower. That's a big problem
Are you trolling right now? For real? Showing a calc of it using a non stab move on a resisted Mon is the dumbest thing and it really hurts your comment. I could do the same with Kartana for example.

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 101-119 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO

HMMMMM.....

Seriously don't do this.

Compare Zamazenta to Walking Wake. Wake is slower + less bulky, but stronger.
The x4 resists to Fire and Water are useful as it means Wake fears little from Heatran or Rotom-W, common OU glue.
Hydro Pump/Draco Meteor/Hurricane are all 110+ BP moves, so Wake has an easier time punishing risky switches.
Wake also partners well on sun, rain teams while Zamazenta isn't really a team player.
Wake is a weather abuser primarily but if also generally struggles with common defensive pokemon in this meta which can outlast it. Compare this to Zama which blows through a lot of supposed defensive counterplay anyways. Wake also has a decent but frustrating speed tier because it can't really afford scarf due to lacking power, but without a speed boost, is much easier to handle offensively while also having options defensively. It also only really has specs for weather teams. Zama meanwhile has multiple sets, though mainly between CB and subIDPress. Z Howl isn't as good but it's solid and especially so at breaking holes.

Wake doesn't really "partner well" with sun/rain. It more requires it in this metagame due to the way the meta is. Unlike Zama which isn't restrictive to build with and in fact is very splashable. And it pairs well with pursuit users.
 
Zamazenta isn't used often because it's linear and requires more prediction than you'd expect.
This is far from a reasonable argument to use against something. Some things are linear because they are good. Espathra was linear, but that didn't stop it from being good, no? Zamazenta is also anything but linear. It has three different viable sets, with the CB variant having a plethora of moves to choose from. You're pretty much required Close Combat and Crunch, leaving you with two open move slots to use on how you want depending on what you need for your team. Various options include:
- Ice Fang
- Wild Charge
- Psychic Fangs
- Play Rough
- Iron Head

Banded, Tera Fighting Close Combat is barely more than a 3HKO versus offensive Lando-T,
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 135-159 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 135-159 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It helps when you include calcs, instead of leaving us to take your word for it. It's more like it's almost a 2HKO versus offensive Lando-T, especially with rocks.

and the defense drops mean scarf Lando can check it fairly easily without needing to explode. Defensive Lando has an even easier time because the CC drops occur before Lando attacks.
Choice Band variants often have Ice Fang, and Howl variants can sometimes carry it as well. Zamazenta also does not have to stay in on an opposing Lando-T, as switching is apart of the game (shocker).

Lando-T is very common so this is a huge hurdle for Zamazenta that he can't overcome without running subpar moves like Ice Fang, requiring more prediction.
I have two problems with this.

The first problem is that defensive Lando-T usually chooses from Rocky Helmet, Leftovers, or Heavy Duty Boots. Landorus-Therian does not have the benefit of reliable recovery moves, making it a risky check to Zamazenta.
Rocky Helmet - You can deal chip damage to Zamazenta, but you lose out on all recovery by not using leftovers, and make yourself susceptible to hazards.
Leftovers - Lando-T becomes a do-nothing Pokemon against Zamazenta. You have gradual recovery throughout the game, but there is no downside on Zamazenta's end when you bring this in, as Zamazenta can switch out, and you are still vulnerable to hazards.
Heavy Duty Boots - This is another do-nothing Pokemon against Zamazenta. You lose out on all recovery (do not say rest LOL), and again have no real downside on Zamazenta's end.

My second problem is your claim that Ice Fang is "subpar."

I'm going to use Pikalytics.com for this as reference. If Pikalytics is outdated or incorrect, I'm sorry. https://www.pikalytics.com/pokedex/gen9nationaldex/zamazenta
I will list every move by usage percent until I get to Ice Fang:
- Crunch (62.695%)
- Body Press (57.985%)
- Iron Defense (57.560%)
- Close Combat (42.119%)
- Substitute (32.750%)
- Wild Charge (31.917%)
- Ice Fang (26.700%)

Substitute and Iron Defense are limited to ID Press variants, so we can remove those from the list. Body Press and Close Combat are also usually never on the same move set, so we can also remove at least one of those. Factoring this in, we can see that there are four moves left on our list, and would imply that Ice Fang is not subpar, but in-fact a good coverage tool.

What's more, while Zamazenta has great defensive stats for an offensive Pokemon, the bland defensive typing means it has to rely on those raw stats more than resistances...

...isn't great at switching into physical attacks more than once
This is a non-issue. Zamazenta should not be your defensive switch-in outside of dire circumstances.

It's really susceptible to chip and indirect damage
This is the only objectively correct thing you've said so far, but "really" might be an exaggeration.

It's also not very strong outside of CC.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 65-77 (23.9 - 28.4%) -- 95.8% chance to 4HKO
What is this calc supposed to prove? Tera-Fighting is redundant in your calc, and Mega Lopunny's should not be switching in against Zamazenta, nor should you be clicking Crunch on Mega Lopunny, considering you have a super effective STAB, and have a higher base speed.

Zamazenta's coverage is so weak that offensive resists can switch in and do huge damage even if they're slower. That's a big problem for a Pokemon that's supposed to be anti-offense.
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 221-261 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Tornadus-Therian: 212-250 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (if you want to invest just enough speed to speedcreep iron valiant)
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 96-113 (25.1 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 96-113 (25.1 - 29.5%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

While Toxapex is a good pokemon to force out the CB variant, it becomes fodder against the howl set just after one boost.

+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 148-176 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 288-340 (94.7 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Defensive Lando-T also becomes fodder against a howl set which is running Ice Fang

252 Atk Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 208-248 (54.4 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (assuming you set up howl and then lost the boost to intimidate)

Compare Zamazenta to Walking Wake. Wake is slower + less bulky, but stronger.
The x4 resists to Fire and Water are useful as it means Wake fears little from Heatran or Rotom-W, common OU glue.
Hydro Pump/Draco Meteor/Hurricane are all 110+ BP moves, so Wake has an easier time punishing risky switches.
Wake also partners well on sun, rain teams
Why are you comparing these two? They are different types, and hit different (literally). Zamazenta is a physical attacker, and Walking Wake is a special attacker.

...while Zamazenta isn't really a team player.


Now, ID/BP sets are better than band imo, but are walled harder by Ghost-types. That set especially struggles with Annihilape who is neutral to Crunch and enjoys chip from weak attacks.
This is objectively incorrect. ID Press sets can sometimes carry crunch, or are usually paired with pursuit support. Zamazenta as a whole is very splashable and versatile mon that only gets better when backed up by other team members.
 
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I feel the reason the guy made these arguments is to prove that zamazenta isn't broken, now as much fun as I feel having a boxart legendary in OU is (but that's just me) I can see the points people make and I do believe it is a great pokemon, but is it broken? I feel zamazenta's power isnt the true issue since it is mainly its absurd speed and bulk, I mean base 120 attack is nothing impressive and using tera to double stab an attack will make most pokemon decently powerful so i feel that point is moot. I do feel Zamazenta wouldn't be broken without tera with it though, hard to say. at least to me it doesn't feel like THE most broken mon in the tier. But we'll see, regardless of if it's broken or not it is certainly one of the best pokemon here in Nat Dex OU.
 

Taka

coastin' like crazy
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Is it finally time we have a conversation about Ghouldngo stall, or is it not metagame warping enough?
gholdengo stall exists, but stall in general in the current National Dex Metagame is significantly worse than other playstyles thanks to the sheer number of wall and stall breakers that exist.
 
gholdengo stall exists, but stall in general in the current National Dex Metagame is significantly worse than other playstyles thanks to the sheer number of wall and stall breakers that exist.
That’s true but what makes ghoul stall insane is the fact that ur offensive mons have limited switch ins due to the lack of hazzard removal. U need z moves or choice items to really break, so u can’t run HDB on them. But the opponents can switch infinity to Pex or Torn depending on if they wanna wall or out offense u. Defog is unviable, but rapid spin is also limited due to hazards+ rocky helmets Corv or Skarm. It’s worse than Oras Sabeleye Stall imo.
 

Taka

coastin' like crazy
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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That’s true but what makes ghoul stall insane is the fact that ur offensive mons have limited switch ins due to the lack of hazzard removal. U need z moves or choice items to really break, so u can’t run HDB on them. But the opponents can switch infinity to Pex or Torn depending on if they wanna wall or out offense u. Defog is unviable, but rapid spin is also limited due to hazards+ rocky helmets Corv or Skarm. It’s worse than Oras Sabeleye Stall imo.
I think you listed it out yourself, and Z moves/Choice Items will break Pex/Torn if you play well. Defog is not unviable, and Gholdengo does not get as many free switch-ins against common defoggers thanks to their access to U-turn and knock. Also, thanks to the recovery nerfs as well as an overall power creep, it is much harder to maintain a stall team in the current metagame since it is also vulnerable to Knock and hazards, opposing Gholdengo, stallbreakers like Taunt Tornadus-T and Heatran, and wallbreakers like Taunt Urshifu-R, Dragapult, Tapu Lele, and the ever-present Rotom-Wash.
 

G-Luke

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That’s true but what makes ghoul stall insane is the fact that ur offensive mons have limited switch ins due to the lack of hazzard removal. U need z moves or choice items to really break, so u can’t run HDB on them. But the opponents can switch infinity to Pex or Torn depending on if they wanna wall or out offense u. Defog is unviable, but rapid spin is also limited due to hazards+ rocky helmets Corv or Skarm. It’s worse than Oras Sabeleye Stall imo.
This isn't OU, lots of Defoggers have solid matchups versus Gholdengo here.
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
I don't know if it was mentionned earlier but i was wondering if Kingambit deserved a suspect test, and it should be banned

I feel like this mon has for only counter tusk or zama and his bulk is so great that its trapping abilities make him feel like a bit like dugtrio cause it can completly shutdown good mon like lele choiced, gholdengo, tornadus or dragapult

In fact the true problem is that kingambit's moveset makes a lot of 50/50 situation, it's hard to predict knock off, sd, pursuit,or sucker punch

Some examples

Zard Y vs Kingambit 4 possibilities in which Kingambit can win by 50/50:
1)Sucker punch if zard y attacks
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 280-330 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
If Kingambit tera,it wins
2)Knock off if zard y switch out
well it's really good cheap damage
3)pursuit if zard y switch out
In most case Zard y dies
4)sd and zard switch out
If kingambit it can get very spicy

Heatran vs Kingambit
The same logic applies as the previous case
However if Kingambit tera, even if you make the wrong call, he is so bulky that he will survive and kill the tran.

Fighting Kingambit feel like more a luckwise fight rather than a fight of skill.

Kingambit's bulk

Kingambit has some strong bulk and good resistances so this is strong but also to bring in terrain especially with cyclazar.
Some calcs: 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 114-135 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 64.2% chance to 3HKO Gholdengo offensive
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 306-360 (82.9 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Lando offensive
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Tera Dark Kingambit: 187-222 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage If Kingambit tera, it only takes half from max spa tran
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 190-224 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 210-248 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera fly or tera ghost

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1817195040-mzl171hj6hq7oxxto96z1zrf99c76jkpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1814031658-6kq64jrfd2ryv0dgbs4pzdhl65xsgcepw
 

hidin

What a kind young man
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I don't know if it was mentionned earlier but i was wondering if Kingambit deserved a suspect test, and it should be banned

I feel like this mon has for only counter tusk or zama and his bulk is so great that its trapping abilities make him feel like a bit like dugtrio cause it can completly shutdown good mon like lele choiced, gholdengo, tornadus or dragapult

In fact the true problem is that kingambit's moveset makes a lot of 50/50 situation, it's hard to predict knock off, sd, pursuit,or sucker punch

Some examples

Zard Y vs Kingambit 4 possibilities in which Kingambit can win by 50/50:
1)Sucker punch if zard y attacks
252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 280-330 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
If Kingambit tera,it wins
2)Knock off if zard y switch out
well it's really good cheap damage
3)pursuit if zard y switch out
In most case Zard y dies
4)sd and zard switch out
If kingambit it can get very spicy

Heatran vs Kingambit
The same logic applies as the previous case
However if Kingambit tera, even if you make the wrong call, he is so bulky that he will survive and kill the tran.

Fighting Kingambit feel like more a luckwise fight rather than a fight of skill.

Kingambit's bulk

Kingambit has some strong bulk and good resistances so this is strong but also to bring in terrain especially with cyclazar.
Some calcs: 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 114-135 (30.8 - 36.5%) -- 64.2% chance to 3HKO Gholdengo offensive
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 306-360 (82.9 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Lando offensive
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Tera Dark Kingambit: 187-222 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage If Kingambit tera, it only takes half from max spa tran
+1 252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 190-224 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 210-248 (56.9 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tera fly or tera ghost

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1817195040-mzl171hj6hq7oxxto96z1zrf99c76jkpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1814031658-6kq64jrfd2ryv0dgbs4pzdhl65xsgcepw
While Kingambit is a strong Pokemon, I do not think it is ban worthy. It has so much role compression that it brings to the tier that if we were to ban it, Pokemon such as Dragapult, Gholdengo, and potentially Nasty Plot Tornadus-T would be on an absolute rampage while also losing one of our biggest Dark- and Steel-type Pokemon that can virtually support any teamstyle with relative ease, which can potentially drastically hurt teams as it loses one of the Pokemon that can patch up teams most of the time. There is also more counterplay to just Great Tusk and Zamazenta, its lack of longevity in combination with Spikes being around a lot and being usually put in bad positions by the Pokemon it wants to check such as Tornadus-T and Dragapult exist as well. For example, let's take a situation where a Kingambit switches into a Tornadus-T from teammates such as Great Tusk. Situations that can occur here are:

Situation 1
You went into your Kingambit into a Tornadus-T when it clicked Hurricane, and Pursuited it when it clicked U-turn.

Situation 2
You went into your Kingambit into a Tornadus-T when it clicked Hurricane, and tried to predict with Pursuit but got your item removed due to Knock Off, or being heavily chipped by Heat Wave.

Situation 3
You went into your Kingambit into a Tornadus-T and it predicted you and clicked Heat Wave. You are either forced to switch out or predict with Sucker Punch or Pursuit on the U-turn. The worst-case scenario is you do the latter, and clicks Heat Wave again, leaving you heavily chipped.

These three situations show that Kingambit isn't that of a consistent switch-in to Tornadus-T unless the player is at the upper hand when it comes to skill. If we would like to add more Pokemon that can make something like this happen, let's take Dragapult as our next example. Dragapult is something that Kingambit naturally counters and easily removes, but due to Terastallization, Dragapult can potentially gain the upper hand, as once it Tera Dragons and Draco Meteors the Kingambit twice after a Spike, it is nearly eliminated from the battle.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 305-359 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

I will admit though, Supreme Overlord in combination with Swords Dance which can be also bolstered by Tera Dark is not a healthy thing to go against, and the calculations with it are just absurd. However, going against it is not a lucked-based thing at all, as that can be said with Terastallization as a whole and not the Pokemon, but in general, it just isn't something that rewards luck, rather it rewards skill and the plays made by the player. Overall, I don't find Kingambit banworthy, and while it does have some very eye-striking traits I don't think it will be on the radar anytime soon.
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
While Kingambit is a strong Pokemon, I do not think it is ban worthy. It has so much role compression that it brings to the tier that if we were to ban it, Pokemon such as Dragapult, Gholdengo, and potentially Nasty Plot Tornadus-T would be on an absolute rampage while also losing one of our biggest Dark- and Steel-type Pokemon that can virtually support any teamstyle with relative ease, which can potentially drastically hurt teams as it loses one of the Pokemon that can patch up teams most of the time. There is also more counterplay to just Great Tusk and Zamazenta, its lack of longevity in combination with Spikes being around a lot and being usually put in bad positions by the Pokemon it wants to check such as Tornadus-T and Dragapult exist as well. For example, let's take a situation where a Kingambit switches into a Tornadus-T from teammates such as Great Tusk. Situations that can occur here are:

Situation 1
You went into your Kingambit into a Tornadus-T when it clicked Hurricane, and Pursuited it when it clicked U-turn.

Situation 2
You went into your Kingambit into a Tornadus-T when it clicked Hurricane, and tried to predict with Pursuit but got your item removed due to Knock Off, or being heavily chipped by Heat Wave.

Situation 3
You went into your Kingambit into a Tornadus-T and it predicted you and clicked Heat Wave. You are either forced to switch out or predict with Sucker Punch or Pursuit on the U-turn. The worst-case scenario is you do the latter, and clicks Heat Wave again, leaving you heavily chipped.

These three situations show that Kingambit isn't that of a consistent switch-in to Tornadus-T unless the player is at the upper hand when it comes to skill. If we would like to add more Pokemon that can make something like this happen, let's take Dragapult as our next example. Dragapult is something that Kingambit naturally counters and easily removes, but due to Terastallization, Dragapult can potentially gain the upper hand, as once it Tera Dragons and Draco Meteors the Kingambit twice after a Spike, it is nearly eliminated from the battle.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Dragapult Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 305-359 (82.6 - 97.2%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

I will admit though, Supreme Overlord in combination with Swords Dance which can be also bolstered by Tera Dark is not a healthy thing to go against, and the calculations with it are just absurd. However, going against it is not a lucked-based thing at all, as that can be said with Terastallization as a whole and not the Pokemon, but in general, it just isn't something that rewards luck, rather it rewards skill and the plays made by the player. Overall, I don't find Kingambit banworthy, and while it does have some very eye-striking traits I don't think it will be on the radar anytime soon.
yeah i know that i didn't took the best replays because i was too lazy to go through all of my replays. However, I wanted to point the fact that tera flying Kingambit is another thing that make him hard to predict. Because it makes a set thzt can beat zama or tusk

"However, going against it is not a lucked-based thing at all, as that can be said with Terastallization as a whole and not the Pokemon, but in general, it just isn't something that rewards luck, rather it rewards skill and the plays made by the player. Overall, I don't find Kingambit banworthy, and while it does have some very eye-striking traits I don't think it will be on the radar anytime soon."
I don't say there are only luck based situations when you fight kingambit. However, when his set isn't revealed yet, you don't if it's a trapper or a setup sweeper, you don't know his tera either , you can send a mon to rk Kingambit and lose right away if his tera allowed him to so.
Furthermore, there no counter who have reliable recovery moves to Kingambit which increase the difficulty to deal with him

maybe this replay better to show that kingambit makes a lot of 50/50 situation https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1825242704-neieihefabhn00kvbr2n4vrl8dx0f0wpw
 
yeah i know that i didn't took the best replays because i was too lazy to go through all of my replays. However, I wanted to point the fact that tera flying Kingambit is another thing that make him hard to predict. Because it makes a set thzt can beat zama or tusk

"However, going against it is not a lucked-based thing at all, as that can be said with Terastallization as a whole and not the Pokemon, but in general, it just isn't something that rewards luck, rather it rewards skill and the plays made by the player. Overall, I don't find Kingambit banworthy, and while it does have some very eye-striking traits I don't think it will be on the radar anytime soon."
I don't say there are only luck based situations when you fight kingambit. However, when his set isn't revealed yet, you don't if it's a trapper or a setup sweeper, you don't know his tera either , you can send a mon to rk Kingambit and lose right away if his tera allowed him to so.
Furthermore, there no counter who have reliable recovery moves to Kingambit which increase the difficulty to deal with him

maybe this replay better to show that kingambit makes a lot of 50/50 situation https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1825242704-neieihefabhn00kvbr2n4vrl8dx0f0wpw
This sounds like a problem with terastalisation more than anything - your post immediately pointed out a different terastalisation for Kingambit (not to mention the tera fire sets to avoid will-o'-wisp) as 'evidence' for the Pokémon itself being the problem. I certainly think that Kingambit is a fantastic Pokémon with very threatening traits, but it does not break the metagame by itself - as with many banned Pokémon in this generation, it is the new mechanic that pushes them to the precipice.
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
This sounds like a problem with terastalisation more than anything - your post immediately pointed out a different terastalisation for Kingambit (not to mention the tera fire sets to avoid will-o'-wisp) as 'evidence' for the Pokémon itself being the problem. I certainly think that Kingambit is a fantastic Pokémon with very threatening traits, but it does not break the metagame by itself - as with many banned Pokémon in this generation, it is the new mechanic that pushes them to the precipice.
I don't agree, first of all, my main argument is that kingambit's access to sucker punch, setup moves and pursuit make situations where it's rather tricky to deal with, because sucker punch's battles are especially tough to deal with a mon that strong and very bulk so easy to bring and can result on a lose of the game(sd setup),or a lose of a win cond (knock off,sucker punch or pursuit) especially in end game where kingambit is very tough to fight with supreme overlord. Tera is just something that push further this argument.
For tera, except kingambit, iron valiant and dragapult, i don't see others mons with tera that makes the whole mechanic unhealthy for the game.
It's too weak as an argument to blame tera for three or four threat that maybe deserves a suspect test on their own.
 
I don't agree, first of all, my main argument is that kingambit's access to sucker punch, setup moves and pursuit make situation where it's rather tricky to deal with because it's sucker punch battle are especially tough to deal with a mon that strong and can result on a lose of the game(sd setup),or a lose of a win con (knock off,sucker punch or pursuit) especially in end game where kingambit is very tough to fight with supreme overlord. Tera is just something that push further this argument.
For tera,, except kingambit, iron valiant and dragapult, i don't see others mons with tera that makes the whole mechanic unhealthy for the game.
It's to weak as an argument to blame tera for three or four threat that maybe deserves a suspect test on their own
The bolded is exactly my point though - Kingambit really starts getting crazy once it terastalises. SD, supreme overlord/defiant, sucker punch and pursuit make it difficult to deal with, but it's saddled with a 4x fighting type weakness, hard checked by Great Tusk and doesn't like taking will-O-wisp + fire type moves on the switch (which aren't uncommon given the existence of Rotom-W, Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, etc). Terastalisation throws this out of the window - it can bust through resists save a healthy defensive Great Tusk with tera dark sucker punch, it can be immune to will-o-wisp and resist fire type moves with tera fire, or even set up on non-ice spinner variants of Great Tusk with tera flying.

I also don't get how my argument is weak - I mentioned Pokémon that have already been banned, e.g. Chien-Pao, Espathra, Roaring Moon, etc that are already incredibly tough to handle without being able to access reliable 80 BP coverage or defensive typings.
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
The bolded is exactly my point though - Kingambit really starts getting crazy once it terastalises. SD, supreme overlord/defiant, sucker punch and pursuit make it difficult to deal with, but it's saddled with a 4x fighting type weakness, hard checked by Great Tusk and doesn't like taking will-O-wisp + fire type moves on the switch (which aren't uncommon given the existence of Rotom-W, Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, etc). Terastalisation throws this out of the window - it can bust through resists save a healthy defensive Great Tusk with tera dark sucker punch, it can be immune to will-o-wisp and resist fire type moves with tera fire, or even set up on non-ice spinner variants of Great Tusk with tera flying.

I also don't get how my argument is weak - I mentioned Pokémon that have already been banned, e.g. Chien-Pao, Espathra, Roaring Moon, etc that are already incredibly tough to handle without being able to access reliable 80 BP coverage or defensive typings.
I said it's better to ban some mon instead of banning tera. You want to ban tera despite tera being already suspected in the past and not banned ? It's aburd
 

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I said it's better to ban some mon instead of banning tera. You want to ban tera despite tera being already suspected in the past and not banned ? It's aburd
except its a lot of mons that need to be banned, not just “some”. adding on from our previous shedinja melmetal chien pao espathra regieleki, we alos have: zama pult volc lele gambit ape garg rain mons ghold, and thats just the more mainstream ones, wait til u hear about cresselia latios polteageist , and the list goes on. and yes, while tera was suspected and not banned, it still received a majority ban votes, with only one less vote to reach a super majority, and with a lot of previously no ban voters publically stating they would now more than happily vote ban. furthermore, add this with the survey which surveyed the entire public, and an even larger range of people think irs the most pressing issue now. add that with the tera discussion thread where pretty much 80% of the thread is on board with a ban, and the other 20% are very very mediocre quality posts, i dont think its that absurd
 
I'd like to discuss about non-mega gallade.

First, I'm not trying to say it's good in this meta. I know it' bad, especially when compared to things like zama or iron valliant. It is just I love this mon and I'm excited about his buff in gen9 , so I want to build a proper team for him.

So, I want to find something only gallade can do, or at least it won't make the team better by simply replacing gallade with other similar mons like zama or his paradox version.

I feel there're two set that might work in this meta, scarf and agility.

Gallade @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Psycho Cut
- Night Slash
- Trick

Gallade @ Life Orb
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Agility
- Psycho Cut
- Night Slash

The scarf set might fit better on balance or BO team, being a speed control when matching with more offensive teams and probably trick the scarf to more defensive teams. The agility set might fit better on HO team, offering an optional late game sweep.

However I'm struggling while using bith these sets. For the scarf set, it's hard to bring gallade in since he resists almost nothing. And since I'm not using band (which I think is bad, I'll explain later), even though I successfully bring in gallade by UT VS or double switch, he just can't do much damage. Another awkward thing is, for teams with fast mons (like m-lop, torn, zama, pult) together with fat mons, it is bad that I trick my scarf out. Though this helps a lot to taking down the fat mons switching into gallade, he also lose his potential sweep against those speedy ones.

For the agility set, there're too many priority moves in this meta. Sucker punch, bullet punch, extreme speed…… All these are stopping gallade from sweeping after an agility (kind of remind me of the gen6 brave bird lol), due to his low defense.

(why does Iron Valliant has a higher def than spdef while both gardovoir and gallade has 115spdef > 65def? Only because it has "Iron" in its name?)

So, do you have any suggestion on how to build a team for gallade in this meta. Again, I want the team to be builld FOR gallade, so the bottom line is that, the team won't become better by simply replacing gallade with other mons lol



About the other sets:
I also thought about other sets like band or sword dance. I feel they would be bad simply because of that 80 base speed. Even after the sword dance gallade is only dangerous for slower mons, so many thins can directly send him back. Band set mesns that you want gallade to be a nuke every time brought in. But both there're many ghost and dark mons, so you still have to predict a lot when clicking STAB moves. (the 80 speed also matters here. Zama also has this immunity problem, but there're much more chance she can go in, since Zama is fast enough to threaten things like m-lop or m-diancie in a face-to-face batte.)
 

Fabriisse

formerly noobiste
except its a lot of mons that need to be banned, not just “some”. adding on from our previous shedinja melmetal chien pao espathra regieleki, we alos have: zama pult volc lele gambit ape garg rain mons ghold, and thats just the more mainstream ones, wait til u hear about cresselia latios polteageist , and the list goes on. and yes, while tera was suspected and not banned, it still received a majority ban votes, with only one less vote to reach a super majority, and with a lot of previously no ban voters publically stating they would now more than happily vote ban. furthermore, add this with the survey which surveyed the entire public, and an even larger range of people think irs the most pressing issue now. add that with the tera discussion thread where pretty much 80% of the thread is on board with a ban, and the other 20% are very very mediocre quality posts, i dont think its that absurd
I don't agree, zamazenta, volcarona, garganacl and ape and gholdengo are not that broken with the tera or else prove that those mons are broken with tera because if some people disagree with my state that kingambit is broken, in this case the mons you are giving are not broken, because kingambit is way more menacing than them.
Furthermore, gen 9 national dex's purpose is to play in gen 9 with all the tools given in previous generation. You have to prove that tera (let's say we ban all the mon that you don't like with tera despite their brokeness controversy in my opinion) makes the tier less fun than the tier without ban but without tera.
Tera is not like dyna which make every mon even nu tier like pokemon busted. A lot mon are absolutely balanced tera with balanced, i think it's really sad to ban the gen's mechanic.
 
I think you guys could be misunderstanding the situation. People who actually like Tera have no need to be posting 200 messages sharing that opinion, because the current state of the tier is what it is, and there's no tiering action programmed for the future. When the suspect test was done, most comments were also proban, but then the voting results were different.

This tier will need to suspect some mons, regardless of Tera, such as Pult, Gambit or Wake, and some new mons will be added from Hisui, so let's start tiering now to balance NDOU and don't look back to past discussions.
 
I think you guys could be misunderstanding the situation. People who actually like Tera have no need to be posting 200 messages sharing that opinion, because the current state of the tier is what it is, and there's no tiering action programmed for the future. When the suspect test was done, most comments were also proban, but then the voting results were different.

This tier will need to suspect some mons, regardless of Tera, such as Pult, Gambit or Wake, and some new mons will be added from Hisui, so let's start tiering now to balance NDOU and don't look back to past discussions.
While I do think that often the loudest voices will be the pro-ban voices, I do not think this is a reason to not look back at previous discussions. A majority of people did still vote to ban after all and if indeed more people now are in favor of banning than they were previously, that could be grounds for another suspect test. Honestly I would quite like to see a new survey to see where the larger metagame stands on the issue.
I do agree that if tera is off limits for the time being, we do need to have a suspect for something at least. The metagame is in quite an unhealthy place right now and while I would argue that's largely because of terastalyzation, if we cannot do anything about terastalyzation we should at least do whatever we can to make the metagame less restrictive.
 
While I do think that often the loudest voices will be the pro-ban voices, I do not think this is a reason to not look back at previous discussions. A majority of people did still vote to ban after all and if indeed more people now are in favor of banning than they were previously, that could be grounds for another suspect test. Honestly I would quite like to see a new survey to see where the larger metagame stands on the issue.
I do agree that if tera is off limits for the time being, we do need to have a suspect for something at least. The metagame is in quite an unhealthy place right now and while I would argue that's largely because of terastalyzation, if we cannot do anything about terastalyzation we should at least do whatever we can to make the metagame less restrictive.
So are we repeating the same test three months later? That's not serious. The tier isn't even stable, the only test made (apart from the quickbans) was the Espathra one, and mons like Wake has appeared. Let's say we do another test to suspect Tera... Will we be revisiting that decision every three months? Because it's a 40%-60% matter, some people may regret. Then, mons like Eleki, Melm, Shedinja or Roaring Moon should be unbanned without Tera, and banned again if we change our mind. That's not a reasonable scenario.
 

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