Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

sure just casually ignore the countless speed tiers that pult outspeeds while dirge cannot
Why are Dragapult and Skeledirge even being compared with each other in the first place? Besides both Pokemon having viable sets involving hex and will-o-wisp (and that's not even counting thunder wave/hex sets for Dragapult), I do not see how they compete with each other - one has blistering speed and a strong offensive presence while the other one is a defensive wall that can snowball into a wallbreaker if it is left unchecked.

Anyways, is Dragapult not a good user of terastalisation? Unless I am missing something, getting a 2x STAB boost on shadow ball/hex/dragon darts/draco meteor or flipping your type disadvantages so you can get a crucial hit on a revenge killer/avoid being crippled with a status condition sounds very good to me.
 
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Why are Dragapult and Skeledirge even being compared with each other in the first place? Besides both Pokemon having viable sets involving hex and will-o-wisp (and that's not even counting thunder wave/hex sets for Dragapult), I do not see how they compete with each other
The original complaint was that Dragapult is too powerful and/or unpredictable.
It's actually not, when looking at the usage stats.
Physical Dragapult is the unique niche and the most popular set, but Z-Phantom Force is exploitable in a way Z-Fly is not.
Cyclizar existing also means Dragapult has to run Infiltrator, which doesn't synergize with Dragon Dance like Clear Body does.
And expecting Ghostium Z means that like Megas, it's not a tera threat. There's less guessing going on with pult, relative to the rest of the meta.

As you move away from physical, Dragapult's niches start to overlap with other Pokemon.
Obviously, the speed is still unmatched, but Dragapult has average bulk and attacking stats.
The other sets have lower ceilings and are only "good" if they successfully bluff the physical set.
Which is a problem when Pokemon like Kingambit check every set anyway.
Dragapult becomes worse against the other 5 mons while still being Kingambit food.

Dragapult is a threat, no question. But in this meta, it's overrated or at least overprepared for. I fear Skeledirge and Annihilape more because counterplay isn't always as simple as "run X Pokemon".
 

hidin

What a kind young man
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With the recent tournament success due to the somewhat infamous Hippowdon + Skarmory core, I would like to know your guys thoughts on the rising up core! In my opinion, it is really, really good as it provides a solid defensive core for both Fat and Balance, have immense synergy together, and wall a majority of Pokemon in the metagame. So, what do you guys think about the core? Let your thoughts out!
 
Apologies for the late reply, I wanted to give my response to this since there are honest concerns present i would like to acknowledge.

Now with Espathra gone I want to give my thoughts on what I consider to be the most broken elements in the metagame right now.

First off we have Zamazenta. Tera fighting CB Close Combat is incredibly tough to switch into, further compounded by its diverse movepool allowing it to hit every fighting resist for super effective damage. Its limited number of checks is reduced even more coupled with pursuit support, trapping Psychic and Ghost types for it and allowing it to spam CC even more freely. Its solid natural bulk and incredible speed tier also means revenge killing can also be a difficult task. As if that was not enough it can also use different sets like Howl to avoid being danced around or Iron Defense Body Press which makes it quite tough to take down.
I hope you were thinking of mons like Dragapult or Gholdengo which can check Zama. But not only can they check the primary pursuit trappers like Weavile or KGB with their utility moves or terastalization, they are not the only checks either.
Dondozo, Toxapex, and Gliscor are each Zama checks which are not easily pursuit trapped, can setup on it, force a swap, and can easily handle Body Press or Close Combat.
More notably there is Skeledirge, which counters almost any Zamazenta set with intelligent play and a bit of luck when it comes to crunch. In addition, willowisp allows it to punish potential pursuit trappers as well.

For now, I think Zamazenta is under control in OU. Perhaps if they gave it Swords dance I think it would have been a more understandable worry.

Secondly we have rain. With the addition of Floatzel and terastalyzation rain teams are stronger than ever before. On the defensive side very little is able to stand up to repeated tera boosted rain boosted water attacks, having to rely on water immunities or bulky water resists, which need to hold Utility Umbrella to be able to switch in continuously.
So what defensive Pokemon can really stand up to the water assault? Regenerator Pokemon with Utility Umbrella like Toxapex or Amoonguss, water immunities like Vaporeon or Gastrodon or very bulky water resists like Dondozo. While this does seem like a large enough list they do all have serious problems, as they either fear coverage, are pressured by hazards, lose to other common rain abusers or are just generally bad outside of checking rain. Special mention does need to go to Rotom-Wash. While it struggles to switch in it does threaten every rain abuser with electric moves or will-o-wisp. Offense isn't much better off, as nothing is able to outspeed the swift swimmers under rain and they lack the bulk to live a hit. Their counterplay seems almost entirely limited to priority attacks.
Looking at it from an unbiased perspective, I do not fully fault players for having issues with Rain, as there is a greater need to explicitly prepare rain team checks on your team due to how powerful of an archetype it represents. Having said that, I never had issues with rain myself, because Kyurem, Amoonguss, and Toxapex were all a part of my team at one point or another, combined with the fact that most rain teams carry just Ferrothorn to effectively respond to Kyurem, and counterplay is incredibly predictable.

And of course, while Terastalization has given rain the kick it needed to obliterate neutral targets, I argue the Rain Team members which took the greatest advantage of the new Genereation IX mechanics, mons like Palafin, Regieleki, & Iron Bundle, have already been banned.
I believe rain as it is now remains short of its former glory back in Gen V. There is solid counterplay available and variants of popular pokemon can be modified to nullify the advantages of rain.
 
Hello, wouldn't it be time to unban Roaring Moon? It seems to me that he was banned prematurely, at the time when we thought that Protosynthesis boosted all stats by X1.5. The Pokemon remained legal in OU and not really ban worthy.
This has been discussed somewhat but its not really a priority since introducing another threat back into a tier which is already somewhat struggling under the load of its current threats is only going to derail tiering action plans. Moon will probably be the first thing revisited after we get everything already in the tier in order.

That being said there's a lot of discussion around Wake, but I havent seen too much on Zoroark-H, which I think could actually be pretty good thanks to a few things.

:zoroark-hisui:
Zoroark-Hisui @ Normalium Z / Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Hyper Voice
- Flamethrower
- Happy Hour / U-turn

This is the set I have the most optimism for; being able to set up an omni boost behind and illusion on a Pokemon with this many immunities seems crazy. The only downside is that even after a boost its still not the strongest thing ever so requires a lot of set-up and work beforehand if it wants to cleanly sweep through after boosting. With how common Specs Pult and Scarf Gholdengo are in the tier though, this should have a lot of opportunities to boost. A tera typing of Fairy on non Z sets lets it switch to walling Dragapults other STAB if needs be while also neutralising its original Dark Weakness so it doesnt have to fear Kingambit Sucker Punch for example. Also lets you punish any Lopunny that clicks CC quite nicely too.

I dont expect this set to be a metabreaker simply because of how weak it still is after the omniboost, but the combination of its Great STAB, immunities and Illusion giving it a lot of opportunities to set up, and decent matchup into the tier at the minute, I think this set is fairly well set to do at least OK with the proper support.
 
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Sun Teams rejoiced with Walking Wake's arrival!

jordi-rapture-walking-wake-lowres.jpg


Walking Wake has become one of the most hyped new additions added to the NatDex OU metagame. With great offensive stats at 125 Special Attack and 109 speed, as well as decent bulk with 99 Hp, 91 defense and 83 special defense. Then it has an amazing signature move in Hydro Stream, which is a Water type move that not only does it ignore the power drop Water type moves have under sun, but also gets boost by sun, so it kinda treats like a Fire Type move. Speaking of Fire type moves, it also has access to Flamethrower, giving it incredible coverage to handle the likes of Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor and Kingambit. Its also has access to Draco Meteor which hits quite hard coming out of 125 special attack. It's last move would vary in the set, if running a Choice Specs set, Dragon Pulse is a fine alternative, meanwhile Hydro Pump and Hurricanecan be added in case you are facing Rain. However Choice Specs has a bit more variety with the stats spread, by only investing 244 spatk ivs while max speed and a Timid nature, it can gain a +1 speed under Sun instead, which can give it a +1 speed form Protosynthesis, and a +1 from the Specs, allowing to reach 522 speed while still hitting quite hard at 520 special attack. Then it can run an Agility or Substitute set to double up its speed while having a +1 Spatk by Protosynthesis, or start blasting threw and avoiding status effects respectably. And since this is NatDex, it also has access to Z Crystals, allowing use powerful Devastating Drakes, while not dropping Special Attack from Draco Meteor. For Teras, Tera Water seems to be the best one for Wake, not only does it help it more offensively by boosting its Hydro Streams, but it also helps him out defensively, Dragon and Water is a great defensive type combination, but by changing it to pure Water type, it lose it's Dragon and Fairy weaknesses, and has resistance to Ice type moves, while still remaining the solid defensive typing of pure Water. Fairy has been a decent defensive alternative to handle opposing Walking Wakes, which is fine, however it doesn't help it offensively, but it is a niche Tera to use nonetheless.

:woop::woop::woop:
(You tought I would forget about these lil fellas?, with 3 woopers means that it's a perfect pokemon to use for Sun teams)

And speaking of Sun teams: here is a sample Walking Wake Sun team.
:torkoal: :venusaur: :walking wake: :great tusk: :charizard mega y: :gastrodon:

Overall, The addition of Walking Wake has been more than welcomed for Sun team players, and even some Rain teams are using to have a better matchup agaisnt Sun teams, that should speak of it's power. Hope you enjoyed this lil update for Sun teams. Feel free to also check out my Sun team guide in the link below:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/page-5#post-9475876
 
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With the recent tournament success due to the somewhat infamous Hippowdon + Skarmory core, I would like to know your guys thoughts on the rising up core! In my opinion, it is really, really good as it provides a solid defensive core for both Fat and Balance, have immense synergy together, and wall a majority of Pokemon in the metagame. So, what do you guys think about the core? Let your thoughts out!
I am honestly glad to see hippo seeing a rise in usage despite the whole hp nerf, and skarm proving to actually be better than corviknight thanks to tanking hits better and setting up spikes pretty reliably, while Corv just sits there and does almost nothing minus Defog(which is ruined by Gholdengo) also Magnezone is nowhere to be seen in this meta, which Skarmory truly enjoys as well. And while Skarm doesn't enjoy the likes of dengo much either, Hippo does have a positive mu with dengo, and Skarm can still provide hazard support.
 

Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus

With the recent tournament success due to the somewhat infamous Hippowdon + Skarmory core, I would like to know your guys thoughts on the rising up core! In my opinion, it is really, really good as it provides a solid defensive core for both Fat and Balance, have immense synergy together, and wall a majority of Pokemon in the metagame. So, what do you guys think about the core? Let your thoughts out!
Not much can be said about the specific core that hasn't already been talked about. The main thing is that I really think that Hippo is what makes this core tick. Skarm is a great option for it of course (primarily because the duo takes care of setting hazards as well) but Hippo just solves so many problems in builder for these fatter builds. Checking threats such as Zard Y and Tapu Koko is really important, and you have the bulk to stave off the vast majority of the meta at least once, which is big considering how dangerous threats like Pult and Lele are right now, Tera Steel is also great for it because you can just gain Dragon, Flying, and Grass resistances whenever you want. It also resets weather, and while it's not gonna answer the Sun and Rain mons by itself it makes a huge difference in the battle against those playstyles just by changing the weather and being able to take at least one hit into their special breakers. Hippo is also basically perfect Garg support, as it sets Sand that makes it easier for Garg to switch in reliably, can spread Toxic onto fatter Regenerator cores for Garg, and also checks Covert Cloak Ghold, or at the very least forces it to Tera. Very good mon for fat and the real anchor of the playstyle rn. Not as big a fan on balance still very good there of course just not as imperative as it is to the fat builds it fits on.

:ss/zamazenta:

I also want to bring this dude up since I'm frankly flabbergasted this hasn't come up in conversation more. There are, of course, many very powerful threats running around but Zama's three sets are all ridiculously dangerous and, notably, do not really share checks, making this a multifaceted threat that can easily 6-0 many otherwise solid teams. Tera Fighting with CB is the most notable of course, makes teams relying on Fat Torn to stave off Fighting-type offense a huge liability and also kills offense fairly effortlessly, it needs prediction to get around Ghosts but Crunch hits them hard and you can run Play Rough for Annihilape if you really want to. We also have some great Pursuit Trappers that can, at the very least, force the Ghosts to Tera into something else at which point you just start spamming CC again. Pursuit also works great with SubIDPress Zama, which is one of my favorite sets in the tier right now. It's a bit fishy but you can fit Crunch if you really want to hit ghosts and, again, pursuit support is very viable right now. Also works well with Ape counterplay. Once you get around these threats the set often just wins outright, it's massive bulk combined with a great speed tier lets it abuse offense and fat alike and with Tera Water you foil most traditional revenge killing efforts. Haze Toxapex and Slowbro can beat both of these sets, but they both despise Z Sets with Howl, which is the overall worst set in my opinion, but it's still an amazing option as you abuse traditional answers really hard and can smash a decent hole in most teams if you set it up properly. It's also really splashable due to the speed tier and Dauntless Shield giving you the bulk to live myriad strong physical hits if you absolutely have to, including stuff like +1 Dragapults Never Ending Nightmare from full. This thing really needs to be on more people's radars, the fact that its UUBL is criminal especially since CB and IDPress in particular just farm ladder lol. Use Zama more.
 

sealoo

PaulGod
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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With the recent tournament success due to the somewhat infamous Hippowdon + Skarmory core, I would like to know your guys thoughts on the rising up core! In my opinion, it is really, really good as it provides a solid defensive core for both Fat and Balance, have immense synergy together, and wall a majority of Pokemon in the metagame. So, what do you guys think about the core? Let your thoughts out!
Wow. This core is truly incredible. I must not lie, I am FWing with this core at the current moment. This core is on some thug type behavior that I really can appreciate. Although it's no Corv/Clod, it is certainly up there on the current best defensive cores.
 
Wow. This core is truly incredible. I must not lie, I am FWing with this core at the current moment. This core is on some thug type behavior that I really can appreciate. Although it's no Corv/Clod, it is certainly up there on the current best defensive cores.
I honestly feel like this core is better than corv/clod tbh.
 
Dondozo, Toxapex, and Gliscor are each Zama checks which are not easily pursuit trapped, can setup on it, force a swap, and can easily handle Body Press or Close Combat.
Dondozo isn't really a good mon... And unless I missed something Gliscor isn't that good rn either.

More notably there is Skeledirge, which counters almost any Zamazenta set with intelligent play and a bit of luck when it comes to crunch. In addition, willowisp allows it to punish potential pursuit trappers as well.
Relying on supposed intelligent play and a bit of luck to use a mon to check another isn't the most consistent way to do so.

Honestly I echo Sputnik's sentiments, that Zama is far far better than its BL status suggests and it should seriously be used more, and I think should be on more people's radars. It's really good.

I never had issues with rain myself, because Kyurem, Amoonguss, and Toxapex were all a part of my team at one point or another, combined with the fact that most rain teams carry just Ferrothorn to effectively respond to Kyurem, and counterplay is incredibly predictable.
Pretty sure all three of these are 2HKOd by banded tera water wave crash under rain. So I'm not sure how they helped you. I'm also not sure why you think some of the banned mons have taken away the overbearing factor of rain when floatzel and Barra still exist and many others exist to do similar things as them.
 
Sun Teams rejoiced with Walking Wake's arrival!

View attachment 497188

Walking Wake has become one of the most hyped new additions added to the NatDex OU metagame. With great offensive stats at 125 Special Attack and 109 speed, as well as decent bulk with 99 Hp, 91 defense and 83 special defense. Then it has an amazing signature move in Hydro Stream, which is a Water type move that not only does it ignore the power drop Water type moves have under sun, but also gets boost by sun, so it kinda treats like a Fire Type move. Speaking of Fire type moves, it also has access to Flamethrower, giving it incredible coverage to handle the likes of Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor and Kingambit. Its also has access to Draco Meteor which hits quite hard coming out of 125 special attack. It's last move would vary in the set, if running a Choice Specs set, Dragon Pulse is a fine alternative, meanwhile Hydro Pump and Hurricanecan be added in case you are facing Rain. However Choice Specs has a bit more variety with the stats spread, by only investing 244 spatk ivs while max speed and a Timid nature, it can gain a +1 speed under Sun instead, which can give it a +1 speed form Protosynthesis, and a +1 from the Specs, allowing to reach 522 speed while still hitting quite hard at 520 special attack. Then it can run an Agility or Substitute set to double up its speed while having a +1 Spatk by Protosynthesis, or start blasting threw and avoiding status effects respectably. And since this is NatDex, it also has access to Z Crystals, allowing use powerful Devastating Drakes, while not dropping Special Attack from Draco Meteor. For Teras, Tera Water seems to be the best one for Wake, not only does it help it more offensively by boosting its Hydro Streams, but it also helps him out defensively, Dragon and Water is a great defensive type combination, but by changing it to pure Water type, it lose it's Dragon and Fairy weaknesses, and has resistance to Ice type moves, while still remaining the solid defensive typing of pure Water. Fairy has been a decent defensive alternative to handle opposing Walking Wakes, which is fine, however it doesn't help it offensively, but it is a niche Tera to use nonetheless.

:woop::woop::woop:
(You tought I would forget about these lil fellas?, with 3 woopers means that it's a perfect pokemon to use for Sun teams)

And speaking of Sun teams: here is a sample Walking Wake Sun team.
:torkoal: :venusaur: :walking wake: :great tusk: :charizard mega y: :gastrodon:

Overall, The addition of Walking Wake has been more than welcomed for Sun team players, and even some Rain teams are using to have a better matchup agaisnt Sun teams, that should speak of it's power. Hope you enjoyed this lil update for Sun teams. Feel free to also check out my Sun team guide in the link below:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-metagame-discussion.3710848/page-5#post-9475876
slowking galar av set handles this team pretty well and great tusk fears future sight
 

about15guys

your favorite pop idol
is a Pre-Contributor
That being said there's a lot of discussion around Wake, but I havent seen too much on Zoroark-H, which I think could actually be pretty good thanks to a few things.
Right now I feel like ZoroH won't be that good since I mainly feel like it'll probably be relegated to niche UU teams and youtube montages. To put it bluntly, this is not a very good meta for it, since it struggles to deal with most bulkier threats and it's heavily lacking defensive stats mean it's mainly relying on its 3 immunities for longlevity, alongside being almost completely blanked by garganacl and forcing 50/50s on gambit, sadly just not the mon's time, but later on with metagame shifts and bans could definitely see a legitimate niche in ou with some interesting partners and fun sets (like z-happy hour)
(also walled by garganacl, common garg w)
 
I hope you were thinking of mons like Dragapult or Gholdengo which can check Zama. But not only can they check the primary pursuit trappers like Weavile or KGB with their utility moves or terastalization, they are not the only checks either.
I don't think Dragapult is a good check to begin with as it's OHKOd by Crunch making it very risky to switch in. Furthermore they aren't that good against the Pursuit trappers. I've been using Zamazenta in tandem with Kingambit and I never had any issues trapping Dragapult. Gholdengo can run Focus Blast but that's primarily on choiced sets so they get trapped if they lock into any other move. Terastalization doesn't help either. While it does allow them to beat the pursuit trappers, they cease to be Zamazenta checks because they can no longer take the Close Combat.

Dondozo, Toxapex, and Gliscor are each Zama checks which are not easily pursuit trapped, can setup on it, force a swap, and can easily handle Body Press or Close Combat.
Dondozo is 2 hit KOd by Close Combat unless it terastalyzes, Gliscor fears Ice Fang and both are already pretty uncommon to begin with. I will say Toxapex is a pretty solid Pokemon to scout the move thanks to regenerator and it only really fears Psychic Fangs.

More notably there is Skeledirge, which counters almost any Zamazenta set with intelligent play and a bit of luck when it comes to crunch. In addition, willowisp allows it to punish potential pursuit trappers as well.
While pressured by Crunch and Pursuit trappers, I will say overall Skeledirge is a pretty decent check. However, that still leaves a very small pool of Pokemon that can take on Zamazenta. For a Pokemon who outspeeds almost the entire metagame and can OHKO so much having such few defensive answers is just broken in my opinion.

Having said that, I never had issues with rain myself, because Kyurem, Amoonguss, and Toxapex were all a part of my team at one point or another, combined with the fact that most rain teams carry just Ferrothorn to effectively respond to Kyurem, and counterplay is incredibly predictable.
As I said in my original post, both Amoonguss and Toxapex need to hold Utility Umbrella to avoid a 2 hit KO from Floatzel, which I think is an unhealthy dynamic to begin with. Kyurem is a pretty solid option for beating rain that I overlooked in my original post. I disagree with Moyashi's assesment that Kyurem is a poor rain check as it's 2 hit KOd by Floatzel and Barraskewda, considering rain has basically nothing that can take Kyurem on in a 1v1. If you can get Kyurem in safely there's little a rain team can do to avoid giving up a Pokemon.
However, this still does not convince me rain is balanced in the metagame. Defensive counterplay is still limited to very specific defensive answers (like physically defensive Utility Umbrella Toxapex) and offense still only really has priority moves or Kyurem as options. It's still a strain on teambuilding as every team needs a dedicated rain check, which almost by default makes them weaker to anything that isn't rain.
 
Hello, wouldn't it be time to unban Roaring Moon? It seems to me that he was banned prematurely, at the time when we thought that Protosynthesis boosted all stats by X1.5. The Pokemon remained legal in OU and not really ban worthy.
I agree so much. It has a healthy speed tier, exploitable typing, exploitable defensive stat. As it stands, Dragapult is a more reliable physical Dragon sweeper than Roaring Moon, and even Dragonite poses a higher threat. Its sets are checked by many mons running around in the tier, like Dragapult, Lando-T, Great Tusk, Kingambit, Diancie, and that's just the top 10 in Usage. I'd just like to see how it would perform right now as I dont think it is as impactful as we originally thought. Please bring this guy down, even just for a suspect!
 

Kyo

In Limbo
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
National Dex Leader
Current Roaring Moon discussion is seriously downplaying what that Mon is capable of, both in raw power and versatility.

Dragapult is a more reliable physical Dragon sweeper than Roaring Moon
Hard, hard disagree. Pult has one great dragon dance set to its name, and it is completely reliant on ghostium Z (tera blast ghost and fighting sets are pretty mediocre). DD Pult is quite powerful, but that drops off significantly after burning the Z move. The one-dimensional nature of this also eases counterplay if you know that you can use a sufficiently bulky dark type like KGB, Ttar, or a defensive tera to deal with that one powerful attack. This is by no means saying that DD Pult isn't good or that it can't sweep you. Pult's S rank viability just comes more from having multiple sets that are probably all top 3 in the meta in their respective roles (DD, specs, status hex spam).

Compared to Pult, Roaring Moon is more streamlined in the role of a DD sweeper, and I think it is far better at accomplishing it.
exploitable typing, exploitable defensive stats
Roaring Moon's initial dark typing is arguably one of its better assets, resisting KGB's sucker punch which is the strongest priority in the tier and creating setup opportunities against the two shadow ball spammers specs Pult and choiced Gholdengo. This is especially nice on screens HO teams that get shredded by infiltrator specs Pult. It can also be successfully passed a shed tail vs Skeledirge. Roaring Moon's defensive bulk across the board is better than Pult too so this point is pretty much a non-starter. The only really exploitable attribute of Roaring Moon is some of its type weaknesses which is of course where tera comes in.

Roaring moon is one of the best tera abusers because of how it can take advantage of defensive and offensive tera in equal measure. Counterplay to this mon is extremely shaky. Moon will DD on switch against anything that doesn't immediately threaten it and then DD again while changing type into fairy, steel, flying, ground, etc. and you'd better hope whatever you switched in last turn can hit its new typing. Tusk for example can be setup fodder for tera flying or just KO'd by acrobatics outright. Most dragon types get setup on by tera fairy/steel if they don't correctly predict the tera. Being reliant on tera rather than a z move is what makes Roaring Moon more versatile, more effective as a DD sweeper, and more difficult to react to defensively.

One of the few ways Roaring Moon falls short of Pult is the lower base speed, but I think this isn't overly impactful. Moon's base 119 speed makes it more than difficult enough to revenge KO. At +1 it outruns pretty much every relevant scarfer or booster energy revenge killer up to Iron Valiant leaving just scarf Cyclizar, Gren, and Pult at a faster speed tier. Of course, all of these are less than common sets to begin with. Pult's extra base speed has some value prior to setup, but is basically irrelevant after 1 DD.
moon speed tiers.png


The last notable and most overlooked aspect of Roaring Moon is that it handles unaware mons in ways that Pult can't. Z moves, tera, and booster energy all ignore unaware. While an unaware mon like Clefable or tera Skeledirge can spam recovery in front of Pult until it burns Z ghost, Roaring Moon has the potential to just muscle through them if they aren't named Dondozo.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 178-210 (43.3 - 51%)
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Dark Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Skeledirge: 172-204 (41.8 - 49.6%)
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%)
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 444-524 (95.8 - 113.1%) (no toxic for you)

If an HO team can force even a small amount of prior chip onto an unaware mon (not a difficult task alongside other setup sweepers), these defensive answers will quickly fall apart.

Maybe it's just because Roaring Moon hasn't been in the tier for a while, but underestimating its capabilities is crazy. I am of course all in favor of re-tests at the appropriate time. However, this mon is not going to be prioritized over regular suspects anywhere in the near future, and I doubt that I personally will be voting to unban it. I think it's an unhealthy contribution to the powercreep and random tera type syndrome (see Annihilape, Garg, and Espathra) that we already have to deal with in this tier.
 
Current Roaring Moon discussion is seriously downplaying what that Mon is capable of, both in raw power and versatility.


Hard, hard disagree. Pult has one great dragon dance set to its name, and it is completely reliant on ghostium Z (tera blast ghost and fighting sets are pretty mediocre). DD Pult is quite powerful, but that drops off significantly after burning the Z move. The one-dimensional nature of this also eases counterplay if you know that you can use a sufficiently bulky dark type like KGB, Ttar, or a defensive tera to deal with that one powerful attack. This is by no means saying that DD Pult isn't good or that it can't sweep you. Pult's S rank viability just comes more from having multiple sets that are probably all top 3 in the meta in their respective roles (DD, specs, status hex spam).

Compared to Pult, Roaring Moon is more streamlined in the role of a DD sweeper, and I think it is far better at accomplishing it.

Roaring Moon's initial dark typing is arguably one of its better assets, resisting KGB's sucker punch which is the strongest priority in the tier and creating setup opportunities against the two shadow ball spammers specs Pult and choiced Gholdengo. This is especially nice on screens HO teams that get shredded by infiltrator specs Pult. It can also be successfully passed a shed tail vs Skeledirge. Roaring Moon's defensive bulk across the board is better than Pult too so this point is pretty much a non-starter. The only really exploitable attribute of Roaring Moon is some of its type weaknesses which is of course where tera comes in.

Roaring moon is one of the best tera abusers because of how it can take advantage of defensive and offensive tera in equal measure. Counterplay to this mon is extremely shaky. Moon will DD on switch against anything that doesn't immediately threaten it and then DD again while changing type into fairy, steel, flying, ground, etc. and you'd better hope whatever you switched in last turn can hit its new typing. Tusk for example can be setup fodder for tera flying or just KO'd by acrobatics outright. Most dragon types get setup on by tera fairy/steel if they don't correctly predict the tera. Being reliant on tera rather than a z move is what makes Roaring Moon more versatile, more effective as a DD sweeper, and more difficult to react to defensively.

One of the few ways Roaring Moon falls short of Pult is the lower base speed, but I think this isn't overly impactful. Moon's base 119 speed makes it more than difficult enough to revenge KO. At +1 it outruns pretty much every relevant scarfer or booster energy revenge killer up to Iron Valiant leaving just scarf Cyclizar, Gren, and Pult at a faster speed tier. Of course, all of these are less than common sets to begin with. Pult's extra base speed has some value prior to setup, but is basically irrelevant after 1 DD.
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The last notable and most overlooked aspect of Roaring Moon is that it handles unaware mons in ways that Pult can't. Z moves, tera, and booster energy all ignore unaware. While an unaware mon like Clefable or tera Skeledirge can spam recovery in front of Pult until it burns Z ghost, Roaring Moon has the potential to just muscle through them if they aren't named Dondozo.

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge: 178-210 (43.3 - 51%)
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Dark Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Skeledirge: 172-204 (41.8 - 49.6%)
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%)
252 Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 444-524 (95.8 - 113.1%) (no toxic for you)

If an HO team can force even a small amount of prior chip onto an unaware mon (not a difficult task alongside other setup sweepers), these defensive answers will quickly fall apart.

Maybe it's just because Roaring Moon hasn't been in the tier for a while, but underestimating its capabilities is crazy. I am of course all in favor of re-tests at the appropriate time. However, this mon is not going to be prioritized over regular suspects anywhere in the near future, and I doubt that I personally will be voting to unban it. I think it's an unhealthy contribution to the powercreep and random tera type syndrome (see Annihilape, Garg, and Espathra) that we already have to deal with in this tier.
I guess I wasnt looking at the tier itself and just looked at Roaring Moon compared to faster mons and didnt take into account the sheer
offensive power and options it holds. It might be too much to handle currently too because there are teammates in this tier like Cyclizar that make counterplay that much harder against it. Guess for me it was more along the lines of, ' if x is in the tier, then y certainly should be in the tier ' Thanks for the calcs and explanations lol.
 

Kyo

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Guess for me it was more along the lines of, ' if x is in the tier, then y certainly should be in the tier '
I think this is a pretty common first impression when people try to draw comparisons between NatDex and OU, so I can't really fault you for having that line of thinking. It's just important to remember that these are very different metagames where a 1 to 1 comparison is not usually realistic. Offense has access to some incredible support options in this tier like Tapu Koko and Cyclizar that are not available in OU. Espathra for example was arguably better in NatDex than it ever was in OU just because of support from screens Koko that gave it the option to use electric seed sets alongside all the other sets you would normally see it using in SV. Good example of the opposite of this is Annihilape where the higher power level of NatDex means on average it has to tank harder hits and has a comparatively worse speed tier to the rest of the meta unlike in SV.
 
ZAM DE LELE

:gholdengo: - :tapu-lele: - :zamazenta:
Ok so, I have been looking into this core and realising it is really good for an offensive/balance team. Gholdengo the goat beating Fairy types like Iron Valiant and opposing Tapu Lele for Zamazenta to blast through the rest of the opposing team with a combination of Close Combat and Crunch. Tapu Lele, being the speed control, can outspeed many Choice Scarfers along with the ability to remove opposing Kingambit's Sucker Punch which is a threat to Gholdengo. Fortunately, with Zamazenta on the team, it can safely switch into Kingambit and either scare it out/remove it completely. Teammates for this are quite simple. Kingambit can go on this team with Pursuit, and trap Ghost Type threats such as Dragapult, Hisuian Zoroark and opposing Gholdengo. (Even though Kingambit and Lele are a rocky pair you can still play around this). You will need a water resist for this core, something to not mind Scald for Zamazenta without Gholdengo taking too much damage from it and something that can take a Urshifu-Rapid-Strike attack. Toxapex and Gastrodon seem to work the best, but let me know if you have any other ideas. Lastly, you should have a Ground Type, so you don't get Volt-Turned on, as mentioned before, Gastrodon is a good pick, but Great Tusk and Landorus-T can work too. These 3 mons can also provide excellent utility with Stealth Rocks as well. Lastly, a Defogger is important to remove hazards from your side, Rotom-Wash and Tornadus-T are both good options here, and can give a good ground immunity for Gholdengo.

Thanks for reading! Let me know what you think!

This is the team i got so far https://pokepast.es/27090707a3843603
:gholdengo: - :tapu-lele: - :zamazenta: - :kingambit: - :gastrodon: - :tornadus-therian:

Update: Changed Dengo tera to Ghost to block Rapid Spins and boost Shadow Balls, and made Torn-T tera Water with Heatwave to deal with Mega Scizor and Volcarona.
2nd Update: Swapped Ice Fang for Play Rough on Zamazenta, because my team is really weak to Gliscor. Don't you dare to try and cteam with it anymore!
 
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Zamazenta isn't used often because it's linear and requires more prediction than you'd expect. High risk, high reward.
Banded, Tera Fighting Close Combat is barely more than a 3HKO versus offensive Lando-T, and the defense drops mean scarf Lando can check it fairly easily without needing to explode. Defensive Lando has an even easier time because the CC drops occur before Lando attacks.
Lando-T is very common so this is a huge hurdle for Zamazenta that he can't overcome without running subpar moves like Ice Fang, requiring more prediction.
What's more, while Zamazenta has great defensive stats for an offensive Pokemon, the bland defensive typing means it has to rely on those raw stats more than resistances. It's really susceptible to chip and indirect damage and isn't great at switching into physical attacks more than once.
It's also not very strong outside of CC.

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 65-77 (23.9 - 28.4%) -- 95.8% chance to 4HKO

Zamazenta's coverage is so weak that offensive resists can switch in and do huge damage even if they're slower. That's a big problem for a Pokemon that's supposed to be anti-offense.

Compare Zamazenta to Walking Wake. Wake is slower + less bulky, but stronger.
The x4 resists to Fire and Water are useful as it means Wake fears little from Heatran or Rotom-W, common OU glue.
Hydro Pump/Draco Meteor/Hurricane are all 110+ BP moves, so Wake has an easier time punishing risky switches.
Wake also partners well on sun, rain teams while Zamazenta isn't really a team player.

Now, ID/BP sets are better than band imo, but are walled harder by Ghost-types. That set especially struggles with Annihilape who is neutral to Crunch and enjoys chip from weak attacks.

“Banded, Tera Fighting Close Combat is barely more than a 3HKO versus offensive Lando-T,”



this is pretty much a non point. “oh wow cc (a resisted move) barely does anything to lando!”. lando is still afraid to come it because it can click ice fang at any time. even then CC is amazing chip. so idk what really was your point here



“Zamazenta that he can't overcome without running subpar moves like Ice Fang”



how is ice fang subpar? you’re making it seem like it doesn’t want to run any of these moves lol. the only moves zama really needs are cc and crunch, meaning ice fang is way more than plausible. and while, yes, using CB zama requires prediction, so is using litterally any choiced pokemon. its not an exclusive thing.



“What's more, while Zamazenta has great defensive stats for an offensive Pokemon, the bland defensive typing means it has to rely on those raw stats more than resistances. It's really susceptible to chip and indirect damage and isn't great at switching into physical attacks more than once.”



you’ll never be using zama defensively anyway.



“Zamazenta's coverage is so weak that offensive resists can switch in and do huge damage even if they're slower. That's a big problem for a Pokemon that's supposed to be anti-offense.”



you’re leaving out the fact that they have to get the predict right in order to switch in zama in the first place. plus, big damage is hyperbole. using your lop example:



252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 102-121 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO



also, you are again acting as if this is just a zamazenta problem. thudding into resists is a problem with all choiced breakers, but it doesn’t make them any less deadly.



Zamazenta isn't really a team player

this is just wrong. zama is an extremely splashable mon that pairs well with shit like pursuit trappers and fsight in which facilities it to win.
 

Taka

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Zamazenta isn't used often because it's linear and requires more prediction than you'd expect. High risk, high reward.
Banded, Tera Fighting Close Combat is barely more than a 3HKO versus offensive Lando-T, and the defense drops mean scarf Lando can check it fairly easily without needing to explode. Defensive Lando has an even easier time because the CC drops occur before Lando attacks.
With all due respect, you are really underestimating Zamazenta's power.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 147-174 (46 - 54.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Fighting Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Being a linear pokemon is not a bad thing. Many of the most overpowered pokemon in the tier have been very linear (Chien Pao, Darmanitan-G, Dracovish). Unless you bring a ghost, Zamazenta will put a large dent in your offensive threats, and its speed tier means that it is very hard to revenge like you said. Even then, predictions aren't some impossible scenario, and one prediction can end a game just like that (such as Crunch into Gholdengo or Ice Fang into Landorus-Therian).

This brings me to my first issue in regards to tera:
1. Pure Offensive Tera:
STAB Tera makes defensive counterplay way too unreliable. Pokemon like Dragapult and Kingambit can just break through resists with ease without a significant amount of set up.

For example, in Kingambit's case, one SD lets it do these crazy feats:

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 218-257 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
chance to ohko with NO supreme overlord boosts and stealth rock!

+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 238-282 (62.4 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
very easily 2HKOs and Landorus cannot do anything back!

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: 266-314 (78 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
mid-game Kingambit OHKOs Urshifu with a single Spike!

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 237-279 (72.9 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Zamazenta takes chip so often that this isn't very hard to achieve

Being able to just power through resists is not a fair power level. There are way too many pokemon that can accomplish this, and rather than banning every abuser, we should aim to deal with the mechanic.

2. The timing of Tera

A common misconception is that Tera is unmanageable because of the variance in Tera types. This is simply not the case. Most of the viable metagame options have a limited selection of Tera types, but that doesn't solve the in-game issue of Tera counterplay. Games can often come down to skill-less plays where players have to guess if the opponent is going to tera their pokemon to live an attack or keep it not tera'd predicting the opponents reaction.This is an unhealthy aspect of Tera that no amount of playing around in the builder will solve, and is something you just have to get used to.
 

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