Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[adem]

OKAYYYYYY a bit funny after i post about the bear it gets nuked, anyways, following up on lbns post, i also want to share my disapproval for the ban + how it was handled. No hate to the council at all, I know its hard and were all humans and make mistakes, but I really think this was a horrible way to go about handling these mons. Before I go in about the mon itself. I want to address some tiering issues mentioned / that i realised before this that can cause issues while handling this. I know home came at a horrible time smack dab before ndwc playoffs, and that is Not Good for everyone involved having the meta be potentially extremely volatile with the new mons, as well as NDLT starting up this weekend (why is it during wc playoffs??? last year i checked it was a week after wc ended, really weird timing lol) so i understand it being a bit hard doing the quick ban -> suspect thing that ubers is doing with caly s, and i understand that you guys must have had a lot of pressure to make a decision about these mons quickly, but I really think that this could have been done much better regardless.

About the mon itself:
Ursaluna @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Headlong Rush
- Fire Punch

This set or some variation of it was cited as an issue in the post, and really the only set ive seen being mentioned overall lol so thats only what im going to talk about (bu luna is the best set guys….). Ursaluna itself is a powerhouse of a mon, absurd 140 attack further boosted with guts and flame orb as well as Tera, it is pretty much impossible switching into this mon safely assuming it gets the turn correct…. and this is where the issue lies. Both of ursa’s STABs (and really if im being honest the only two of its moves which are scary even on neutral hits, as its coverage isnt that hard without the tera/stab/high bp that its stab moves have) have extremely common immunities in the tier, with ground immunes mandated on every single good team, and ghosts itself are very common mons both in ladder and tour play:
Last Months usage:
| 5 | Dragapult | 17.39838% | 236177 | 12.654% | 171964 | 12.227% |
| 6 | Gholdengo | 16.56718% | 175493 | 9.403% | 129778 | 9.228% |
Both Pult and Ghold are really popular on ladder, and I expect this number to rise slightly with Luna introduced, and Ghold even more with sneasler existing, so definitely common mons.
NDWC:
W1-
| 5 | Gholdengo | 11 | 21.15% | 63.64% |
| 7 | Dragapult | 10 | 19.23% | 40.00% |
W2-
| 2 | Dragapult | 12 | 25.00% | 66.67% |
| 10 | Gholdengo | 7 | 14.58% | 42.86% |
W3-
| 4 | Gholdengo | 11 | 23.91% | 54.55% |
| 7 | Dragapult | 9 | 19.57% | 44.44% |
W4-
| 5 | Gholdengo | 12 | 26.09% | 50.00% |
| 7 | Dragapult | 11 | 23.91% | 45.45% |
Some other ghosts have been used as well scattered throughout the week, a quite few skeledirges, some sableyes / blacephs / mimikyus / aegis / hizoros. Pult and Ghold are definitely top tier mons in the tier, based on the top 10 usage consistently every week (with solid winrate), and same on ladder, and other ghosts definitely still are used, and with the new mon additions i wouldnt be suprised if ghost usage rate in total surpasses 50%. Ghosts are prevelant on most good teams in the tier, just because of how good they are as mons. However, it isnt just Ghosts, as a lot of bulky Steels are commonly physically defensive and take unboosted normal stab well, skarm, ferro, mzor, bulky fog kart (this set is real here too dont forget him), so its not like its limited to immunities. Ursaluna is an incredibly predict heavy mon, especially considering it is constantly being chipped down by flame orb (which stacks up super fast btw), so its not like it can keep dancing around, it needs to gets turns right, and with tera being a thing as well it gets even harder, need to get the 5050 switches right AND potential tera ghosts/flyings to mess it up even more (which i expect will be even popular in the future with more play)

Ursaluna’s reliance on trick room is an extremely huge burden as well, since our setters are quite easily taken advantage of and easily pressured + as well as being super predictable, outside of trick room luna is a liability in my eyes, its bulk is good but with hazards and orb and trying to hard switch on things it in practice is much worse than its bulk lends it to be. Luna’s power is scary in comparison to most mons but compared to other trick room mons it is not that special imo, and most of the tera arguments can be applied to other breakers y under trick room. Furthermore, needing a turn for flame orb to proc (unless slow pivoted into) is super detrimental to trick room as you waste a turn where you at best can swords dance, making the playstyle even more linear if it wants to function well. Trick Room itself is a matchup fishy playstyle and the addition of luna does not change this, it hasnt become some super consistent powerful playstyle, u still fish for slower bulkier teams, witf faster structures you can generally out offense if and stall out the turns / break the setters.

To get to the point, I do not think Luna (at least this set) is in any way broken, very easy to dance around and out offense, and we had barely any time to adapt to it. Personally talking to people in the natdex room about this set who initially had issues with it quickly realised luna’s faults and how to adjust around it through play or build. I dont think Luna is more than a standard trick room attacker, until theres more development this mon is solely relegated to trick room and does not make the playstyle too hard too deal with.

About how the voting was done, I think it was done very poorly, with anything that isnt as outwardly broken as calyrex s or arceus should always have some form of community input, either by a survey or a thread or a suspect, hell, even just basing it on posts made lol. This decision feels very not thought through, barely anyone has complained about this publically and there is no public evidence that would even warrant a slate being done. I really hope the council rectifies this by setting up a suspect date, potentially during ladder tour playoffs (scheduled so that ban result is announced at start of last week so it wont have to be freed during the tour) or really just unban it now imo for the ladder tour (if playoffs is such an issue idk keep it banned lol). There has been less than a week of development, and barely any public outcry about luna, although i wouldnt even support an outright quickban like this for sneasler lol who i think is miles more broken. Please respect the playerbase and treat this fairly, home released at a terrible time but it isnt an excuse to jump the gun on decisions like this so quickly.

@ other people on discord and ps who have voiced their disagreement there please post here as well so your voices get heard


e: i mentioned this on discord already but i the reasonings of “ou did this too why is this an issue” is a very, to put it nicely, out of touch and disingenuous , response. Since home release, ou has had FIFTY NINE PAGES of responses in their metagame discussion thread. to put that in perspective we barely have 15 pages in ours and ours was from the start of sv??? thats how much community input ou has had lol. another funny comparison, since home released, luna was only mentioned 3 times in this thread (before the ban) and one of them was me talking about bulk up and av. luna was mentioned 20+ times in less than half a day in the ou metagame discussion thread (midnight to 10am mine when i counted). while ou may not have done a proper survey or a suspect, they sure did get a fuck ton of community opinion lol, hundreds of times more than what we did. they also didnt ban the mon, which is another distinction, part of which i would assume comes with the fact that the mon is completely new and they might be giving the tier a chance to adapt to it, so i really really really would appreciate it if no one brings this argument up since it is not a valid reason and quite insulting.

e2: ou also had the funny mon magearna at the time! the one that actually made trick room broken. a lot of the sentiment around it was also blamed on mage boosting tr too, and a lot (at least on smogcord who i had this discussion with) agreed that with mage gone tr wouldnt be that big of an issue and neither will luna, and agreed on letting mage go first then only reevaluating luna.

anyways have a nice day !

 

[Miss_Catherine]

yo guys any reason luna was banned it really just seems like it broke walls well and did its job well and got banned for breaking walls when its not egregious at all. iirc it dies to most stuff in the tier or at least what i click and most teams have several immunities to its moves so it has to read well. even if u read well u just kinda kill 1 thing rather than reading well on a sweeper and winning the game. i want luna back so i can get my free elo from playing into luna teams

 

[Joseph Gomes]

yo guys any reason luna was banned it really just seems like it broke walls well and did its job well and got banned for breaking walls when its not egregious at all. iirc it dies to most stuff in the tier or at least what i click and most teams have several immunities to its moves so it has to read well. even if u read well u just kinda kill 1 thing rather than reading well on a sweeper and winning the game. i want luna back so i can get my free elo from playing into luna teams

Funny enough, most people can't abuse Luna too well. You need some skill to use Luna properly in TR since TR is so short, ground/normal have common immunities, and Luna is burned. At lower ladder, Luna teams are bait for less experienced players (aka noobtrap)

 

[Miss_Catherine]

Funny enough, most people can't abuse Luna too well. You need some skill to use Luna properly in TR since TR is so short, ground/normal have common immunities, and Luna is burned. At lower ladder, Luna teams are bait for less experienced players (aka noobtrap)

most people i see arent even using it in tr lol. still seems quite odd to ban a mon that only shines on a teamstyle as flawed as TR

 

[about15guys]

I feel like its time to talk about the elephant weasel in the room

Sneasler!

What do you guys think about it? do you think it's ok? bad? overhyped? broken?

In my personal opinion, its very stupid. It's got a habit of pulling wins out of its ass like nobody's buisness with its great stats and movepool. On screens ho its a threatening cleaner with sd and tera flying acrobatics, it can also be a very effective pivot with HDB or Pads, spreading status and just being a general annoyance. I'm shocked this only got one vote to ban while ursaluna got enough to get banned

 

[Aera]

Here's my suggestion, Suspect Ursaluna back down within the next week. Ubers is doing a similar thing with Calyrex-Shadow, and doing it like this would help rectify with, and pardon my bluntness, absolute dogshit decision in every corner. Another thing that would help to rectify it is too not be so caught up with time management that you rush decisions like this.

I personally don't really care either way about the ban of Ursaluna, but I really do not want to waste even more time with yet another suspect test while we continue beating around the bush. Tera is broken. We all know it. Let's finally do something about it. We had a suspect test almost half a year ago where it narrowly avoided the ban hammer and over time public opinion has only soured, something which could clearly be seen in the tiering survey. I can understand not conducting a suspect test while tours are under way but once those are done with, I really hope the first thing on the radar to be terastallization. If tera gets banned we'd have to reevaluate a lot of previous bans anyways so let's just first get that out of the way before we retest a mon that could still be too much to handle at the end of the day.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

I wonder how much tera has discouraged community participation for Natdex. The meta has been unbalanced for far too long and increasingly more and more bans are happening because of tera.

About time we had another suspect test? If not for full ban, at least some restrictions

 

[Payasiko]

Imo, ursaluna was far away from deserving a quickban in a tier where we have things like kingambit. It doesn't seem logical to me, and I can't understand some of the decisions made by the council lately, with all due respect. In the first player survey, people found pult more problematic than zama, but the latter got the suspect test. After the second survey, annihilape (score of 3.18) was banned, but gambit (score of 3.14) was not even suspected (espathra scored 3.15 in the first one). Now ursa is quickbanned when it doesn't seem as broken as the aforementioned mons. The tier is still unbalanced, some playstyles are nearly impossible to be used and the situation doesn't seem to improve.

 

[adem]

I personally don't really care either way about the ban of Ursaluna, but I really do not want to waste even more time with yet another suspect test while we continue beating around the bush. Tera is broken. We all know it. Let's finally do something about it. We had a suspect test almost half a year ago where it narrowly avoided the ban hammer and over time public opinion has only soured, something which could clearly be seen in the tiering survey. I can understand not conducting a suspect test while tours are under way but once those are done with, I really hope the first thing on the radar to be terastallization. If tera gets banned we'd have to reevaluate a lot of previous bans anyways so let's just first get that out of the way before we retest a mon that could still be too much to handle at the end of the day.

personally i wld be more of an advocate for just outright unbanning the thing, if it gets too much too handle then suspect it at a later date imo (esp post tera for sure). dont think the voting had much justification to even happen so that is what im hoping to see soon

 

[Oculars]

I feel tera in its current state discourages long term planning within games and ends up with stuff coming down to 50/50s like dynamax was in early gen8 at the start of the gen a small majority wanted to keep it given it was the generations gimmick and seemed to make less viable mons and mons with bad coverage usable such as polteageist, however its quickly turned into free adaptability for anything that wants it and a way to cheese around offensive checks with defensive type changes. Rather than banning the next wave of tera abusers like cresselia or whatever we should take a swing at tera first. Given how many previous do not ban voting players ive talked to who have since changed their minds I can almost guarantee if we had a retest that tera would be overwhelmingly banned and wed have to free the guys and retest plenty of previous bans that abused tera too hard like melm, eleki, roaring moon and maybe even the likes of mage, naga and walking wake.. Because of the likely outcome of a tera retest and how big the meta shakeup would be it should take priority for tiering action after wcop before any luna or other potential suspect tests.

 

[CEO_of_Piss]

Just another person posting about how the recent quick ban was bad. I would take no issue with ursaluna being banned if it had actually come from a vote from the community. But it came solely from the council, with no input from the actual players.

Maybe ursaluna was a problem, a lot of people clearly think it wasn't, but it might have been, idk. But it clearly was not meta breaking enough nor producing anywhere near the amount of outcry from the players that can warrant a ban with no vote.

 

[Chilli Dewd]

So I'm pretty sure you heard of Ursaluna getting quickbanned from National Dex Ou(Yes, I was totally wrong with my ranks on the poke). If u haven't yet, here is the official link explaining why: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ursaluna-is-now-banned-from-national-dex.3722464/
Now one part in particular that caught my attention was the Trick Room section, more importantly, Kyo here mentions that Trick Room isnt a reliable playstyle, yet with Ursaluna, it got a huge buff that eclipsed its usage. So that got me thinking, why is Trick Room not as reliable as say, Rain for example? I think I have an answer for that... I am going be giving my honest opinion of why I personlly think, Trick Room should NOT be a super consistent archetype.

Trick Room is a very unique archetype, its a move that while active, the slowest pokemon gets to go first, makes any logic? No, but neither does pokemon itself. Anyway, this has potential to be meta warpping, as it is shown in VGC. So, why is it not good in Singles then? Two reasons, One, vgc and singles are different formats, in vgc u have 2 pokemon active, so one can set trick room while the other either helps out or does its own thing. Two, and the big one, is that Trick Room doesnt have a ton of support to its gameplan. Unlike Rain and Sun where they have setters thanks to abilities like Drizzle and Drought, Trick Room can only be active manually, nor does it have a Trick Room extender like item. As it stands now, Trick Room team are somewhat clunky in their playstyle because of this. Trick Room has had its niches in the tier do, In the Pre-Ape, Wake and Shed Tail meta, Screens Offense, Sun and Rain were the top 3 archetypes, and due yo their aggressive yet fragile playstyle, Trick Room has a solid matchup against those teams(Nothing like turning a HO team into Rampardos for 4 turns, am I right?). So why not give them a more appealing buff then? And sorry if I am "rewd" saying this, but at least in my opinion, Trick Room should NOT be superconsistant. Cuz with Trick Room, there just doesn't seem to be a middle-ground. Trick Room gets a new mon that can fit in, and it eclipses from bottom to top in an instant, as seen in the bans of Melmetal and Ursaluna.

Now let's give them some Theorical buffs...
Imagine it's gen 10, Landorus is still OU, New Fire Starter gained partial Dragon type, Scovillain gets a new Evolution called "Scovimesis", Garchomp finally gets Dragon Dance, Lugia finally drops to OU, Heal moves were returned to 16 pp, all starters from previous gens are all added to the game minus Charizard, and Battle Bond became the new Universal mechanic can be used on any pokemon (sounds pretty cool doesn't it?). And in this gen, Trick Room gets a massive buff...
-New Ability:Trick House
When the Pokemom enters into battle, it actives Trick Room.
Ability Distribution: Musharna line, Mr. Mime line, Mr. Rime line, Hatterene line.

New item:Tricky Cube
Extends Trick Room for 8 turns instead of 5.

With these theorycal buffs, this should fix Trick Room's main issue of inconsistency. With the ability, Trick Room would no longer have the struggle of finding a way to setup Trick Room, instead they can just bring the user in and it's already set. All they would need to do is find a way to bring the abuser in, but consider how some of these tend to have decent bulk, this shouldn't be much of an issue. As for the item, it can be good for the added measure to make sure your mons cam abuse it not just more frequent, but also for a longer period. I can also see the item Eject Button being used, as a way to bring certain mons like Crawdaunt and Alolan-Marowak more safely. And with these buffs, this should put it on par with other archetypes like Rain and Screens Offense... or so you's think. Trick Room would be absolutely broken if these buffs were to be given to them. Unlike Rain or Sun, Trick Room affects every pokemon, just imagine having a Screens Hyper Offense with Tapu Koko, Sneasler, Iron Valiant, only to see a Musharna, Melmetal and friends. You'd probably not have a fun time. The difference between using Trick Moon manually and using Trick Room threw an ability is night and day. Fast and frailer teams like Hyper Offense for example, would pretty much see little to no play. And while bulkier teams dont mind Trick Room to much, with these buffs they would need to adjust their gameplan. Instead of investing on speed Evs to outspeed Heatran, Heatran would be investing on negavite speed nature and ivs. This would cause such a drastic change to the meta, that I can almost garantee their dominance in the tier would not last long, actions will be taken, unless they prefer Trick Room mirror matches, with Fat being one of the few other archetypes playable, and Sun and Rain beingat the very bottom. (#SmogonHatesTrickRoom). Now this isn't to say Trick Room HAS to be bad, I think it has an interesting niche at the current moment, with how Sneasler has been popping in Screens HO and even some PsychicSpam(an underrated archetype that needs be I would like to know more details about) and with Sun and Rain gaining some new toys themselves, Trick Room can be used as a backup option when facing these matchups.


Soin conclusion, I would like yo knoe what you guys think, Do you like Trick Room, or hate it? What do u think of these theorycal buffs? Do you think banning Ursaluna was fair or not?
I hope you guys enjoyed reading this article, and have a wonderfull time in Showdown.

 

[ChrisPBacon]

Just giving my (very) quick pov on the luna ban, i can see why people r mad abt how there wasnt any player input in the quickban voting decisions. Personally, my pov is that I really really really hate dealing with policy shit, thats why personally idr dip my hand into posting for suspect/meta disc threads unless its a point that i really need to get across. When home came up & slate came out, I personally wanted luna banned because both the bulk up and flame orb sets were threatening to fuck up the (relative) stability of the poffs week, and i found the former specifically to be unbelieveably annoying to deal with. I thought luna brought another unhealthy element that further threatened the competitiveness of the tier, hence I voted to ban it. At the time I wasn't particularly familiar with community discussions re. the two mons, so I voted based on what I felt would be the best without first contacting the community or understanding the policy behind the votes because I didn't account for that into my decisions.

If ygs have any questions @ me on the discord and I'll attempt to answer them

 

[KaiZ]

Since this discussion has gone silent for 9 days (in my timezone), what core do you consider overrated or a core that isn't great? For me is unburden sneasler + koko, I'm not too fond of that core is because I can't make any sleep cheese, I rather use 2.25× STAB Acrobatics Hawlucha over sneasler(I'm very petty I know)

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Since this discussion has gone silent for 9 days (in my timezone), what core do you consider overrated or a core that isn't great? For me is unburden sneasler + koko, I'm not too fond of that core is because I can't make any sleep cheese, I rather use 2.25× STAB Acrobatics Hawlucha over sneasler(I'm very petty I know)

Sneasler is still pretty powerfull even without being able to sleep anything(due to electric terrain being active) with such high attack, overkill speed and great Stab combo alongside good coverage options. Plus it can still Poison or Paralyze, which is still a game changer on its own, not too mention that once Electric Terrain is gone, Sneasler can get to sleeping cheese.
As for mon/core I think its popular, yet not "great", I would have to mention Clodsire/Corviknight. The two are incredibly common on ladder, and sorta synergize well with each other as an ok defensive core. The problem is that they well, don't do much. Both are relatively passive and have competition as well. On Fat teams, this core is outclassed by the infamous Hipposkarm core. Bulkier, less passive, and can bring more to a team overall defensively. They do have niches over their competition do, Clod has 2 good abilities, and Corv serves as a defensive pivot, but they are barely worth it as they tend to stop a ton of momentum your team might had. For Clod, its physical defense is easily exploitable by Pursuit Kingambit, a pokemon everyone should had in their minds when teambuilding, and it also has some Unaware competition with Skeledirge, who himself is niche, but far from passive with its Torch Song snowball effect. And if Water Absorb, its now left vulnerable to becoming settup fodder, not to mention it also has a bit of competition with Gastrodon. As for Corv, it has a ton of competition for the Defogger role, with Gliscor, Rotom-Wash, Landorus-T, Zapdos, Tornadus-T, and Moltres. The difference between these foggers and Corviknight is that they don't exactly become settup fodder for the Defog blocker, Gholdengo. At least the other Defoggers I mentioned aren't shut down almost completely by the Golden Boy, Corviknight can do very little in comparison. The best it can do is pivot into something that can handle Gholdengo, like Kingambit, which at that point, youre better of with one of the other defoggers. Not saying you shouldn't use them(I mean, this comes from the guy who uses Scovillain in sun over Venusaur) but it is something u need to consider when teambuilding.

 

[KaiZ]

Sneasler is still pretty powerfull even without being able to sleep anything(due to electric terrain being active) with such high attack, overkill speed and great Stab combo alongside good coverage options. Plus it can still Poison or Paralyze, which is still a game changer on its own, not too mention that once Electric Terrain is gone, Sneasler can get to sleeping cheese.

Ah alright I get your point thanks for telling me about it! (Now the main problem I have now is using sneasler in general as I have skill issue with it but oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

 

[Gohon]

Sneasler can be handled by unaware pokemon but that's about it . However on sneasler + koko dengo can handle it pretty well. I think sneasler could be uber but also stay ou. however i think as a community we should suspect test it.

 

[montegom]

I don't know if this is the best palce to ask this kind of question but which Pokemons do you consider the best leaders in the metagame right now?

 

[Nish the Great]

I don't know if this is the best palce to ask this kind of question but which Pokemons do you consider the best leaders in the metagame right now?

Good place to ask this kind of question in the future

Viability Rankings, see first post for (slightly outdated) list of best Pokémon currently

 

[Jho]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...erastallization-re-test.3723497/#post-9679212

Tera retest is live!

 

[Chilli Dewd]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...erastallization-re-test.3723497/#post-9679212

Tera retest is live!

GREAT! Now I have to put a hold to My Fat Guide... AGAIN!

Do seriously, I'm glad this is happening. Tera has been very oppressive ever since day 1. From the likes of the unhealthy Tera Electric Air Ballon Shedinja, To the many powerhouses that had been banned like Roaring Moon, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, Melmetal, and more, to the current day we there many currently powercul abusers Heatran, Swift Swim Basculegion(Both Male AND Female) and much, much more. I know Tera for some is fun, and on a casual pov, it is. But in the competetive pov, it isn't fun when your mega Charizard Y is forced to run Air Slash just so it can check Tera Grass Heatran, or when your Toxapex can't even switchin to a Tera Water Choice Banded Basculegion. Imo, Tera had it's run in the meta, for some it was fun, for others it wasn't, but i feel like a teraless meta would be interesting to have, it would almost be like a fresh new start. In fact, some pokemon like Roaring Moon and Melmetal can potentially return if Tera is banned, which would be of great welcome. Now let's see what the fate of the metagame will be. Will we remain with Tera in the meta again? Or will we ban it for good this time? The future of this meta is in our hands.(Actually it's in council's hands, but u get what I mean. And hopefully I get to finish that fat guide for once.)

 

[Iynhe]

I feel like a teraless meta would be interesting to have, it would almost be like a fresh new start.

It will be gen 4 once again, like last gen. We already had teraless meta LMAO

I guess that too many people hate Tera now. I hope that's not the case (competitively, I feel like Tera does not have that many variants for each mon so it's easier than the casual/low ladder part of the meta) but hey, in the end we will all still play NatDex anyway.

I will personally try to have the most fun while it will last.

 

[KaiZ]

Imo, Tera had it's run in the meta, for some it was fun, for others it wasn't, but I feel like a teraless meta would be interesting to have, it would almost be like a fresh new start. In fact, some pokemon like Roaring Moon and Melmetal can potentially return if Tera is banned, which would be of great welcome. Now let's see what the fate of the metagame will be. Will we remain with Tera in the meta again? Or will we ban it for good this time?

Personally I would keep Tera in

But before you guys get your pitchforks on:

Now for the reason why I don't oppose Tera (It's the only real legitimate reason):
It's fun, that's it. Tera is fun to use offensively having clean sweeps everytime you tera fairy your valiant and spam 2.25× boosted tera on everything and ohko (or 2hko) the opposing team. And it's also fun using an unexpected tera flying gambit against a tusk with no Ice spinner. And yes it's true, I won't get reqs here's the explanation below.

I won't get reqs for Tera is because:
1. I suck at ladder (literally is stuck in low ladder for like 2 years wtf)
2. Because I would like to see everyone's opinion make the decision on suspect knowing that theirs is better than mine (hopefully)

Anyways that's my pov for you guys. Cya later on a tera-less or tera-more meta! (Hopefully the first one is true but won't oppose more tera :D )

 

[about15guys]

Personally I would keep Tera in

But before you guys get your pitchforks on:
View attachment 530027
Now for the reason why I don't oppose Tera (It's the only real legitimate reason):
It's fun, that's it. Tera is fun to use offensively having clean sweeps everytime you tera fairy your valiant and spam 2.25× boosted tera on everything and ohko (or 2hko) the opposing team. And it's also fun using an unexpected tera flying gambit against a tusk with no Ice spinner. And yes it's true, I won't get reqs here's the explanation below.

I won't get reqs for Tera is because:
1. I suck at ladder (literally is stuck in low ladder for like 2 years wtf)
2. Because I would like to see everyone's opinion make the decision on suspect knowing that theirs is better than mine (hopefully)

Anyways that's my pov for you guys. Cya later on a tera-less or tera-more meta! (Hopefully the first one is true but won't oppose more tera :D )

while this may be true, unfortunately fun is not the rule that causes a game mechanic to live or die in competitive pokemon, since, as multiple other people have put it, fun is subjective, and different to everyone, meaning it's hard to justify a mechanic soley based on its fun factor, in fact, if it being fun is the only reason why you think it should be in the tier, that's more grounds to ban it if anything

 

[KaiZ]

while this may be true, unfortunately fun is not the rule that causes a game mechanic to live or die in competitive pokemon, since, as multiple other people have put it, fun is subjective, and different to everyone, meaning it's hard to justify a mechanic soley based on its fun factor, in fact, if it being fun is the only reason why you think it should be in the tier, that's more grounds to ban it if anything

I agree on that fun is entirely subjective, as a ex-NatdexAG8 player I thought dynamax was fun but it isn't health for normal Natdex8 OU