Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

hidin

What a kind young man
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Code:
Combined usage for National Dex (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          | 29.579% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   | 19.491% |
| 3    | Great Tusk         | 19.361% |
| 4    | Walking Wake       | 18.880% |
| 5    | Dragapult          | 15.223% |
| 6    | Charizard-Mega-Y   | 14.422% |
| 7    | Gholdengo          | 13.709% |
| 8    | Tapu Lele          | 12.660% |
| 9    | Heatran            | 12.304% |
| 10   | Zapdos             | 12.297% |
| 11   | Clodsire           | 11.741% |
| 12   | Tapu Koko          | 11.712% |
| 13   | Ferrothorn         | 11.550% |
| 14   | Lopunny-Mega       | 10.950% |
| 15   | Rillaboom          |  9.971% |
| 16   | Tornadus-Therian   |  9.138% |
| 17   | Rotom-Wash         |  8.780% |
| 18   | Diancie-Mega       |  8.602% |
| 19   | Scizor-Mega        |  8.599% |
| 20   | Garchomp           |  8.290% |
| 21   | Iron Valiant       |  8.277% |
| 22   | Hatterene          |  7.986% |
| 23   | Glimmora           |  7.819% |
| 24   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  7.755% |
| 25   | Kartana            |  7.714% |
| 26   | Dragonite          |  7.637% |
| 27   | Corviknight        |  7.457% |
| 28   | Volcarona          |  7.234% |
| 29   | Cyclizar           |  7.048% |
| 30   | Annihilape         |  6.422% |
| 31   | Torkoal            |  6.374% |
| 32   | Toxapex            |  6.244% |
| 33   | Pelipper           |  6.210% |
| 34   | Zamazenta          |  5.855% |
| 35   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  5.628% |
| 36   | Garganacl          |  5.598% |
| 37   | Swampert-Mega      |  5.221% |
| 38   | Zoroark-Hisui      |  4.866% |
| 39   | Skeledirge         |  4.452% |
| 40   | Grimmsnarl         |  4.179% |
| 41   | Tapu Fini          |  4.052% |
| 42   | Ting-Lu            |  3.815% |
| 43   | Gliscor            |  3.723% |
| 44   | Gyarados-Mega      |  3.677% |
| 45   | Greninja-Ash       |  3.617% |
| 46   | Tyranitar          |  3.523% |
| 47   | Kommo-o            |  3.467% |
| 48   | Serperior          |  3.340% |
| 49   | Victini            |  3.336% |
| 50   | Excadrill          |  3.325% |
| 51   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  2.989% |
| 52   | Iron Hands         |  2.966% |
| 53   | Chansey            |  2.960% |
| 54   | Mawile-Mega        |  2.890% |
| 55   | Medicham-Mega      |  2.881% |
| 56   | Weavile            |  2.801% |
| 57   | Baxcalibur         |  2.537% |
| 58   | Slowking-Galar     |  2.503% |
| 59   | Blissey            |  2.484% |
| 60   | Iron Moth          |  2.453% |
| 61   | Venusaur           |  2.440% |
| 62   | Kyurem             |  2.428% |
| 63   | Buzzwole           |  2.393% |
| 64   | Clefable           |  2.289% |
| 65   | Cinderace          |  2.243% |
| 66   | Hawlucha           |  2.201% |
| 67   | Blaziken           |  2.200% |
| 68   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.117% |
| 69   | Orthworm           |  2.071% |
| 70   | Slowbro            |  2.052% |
| 71   | Greninja           |  2.045% |
| 72   | Iron Leaves        |  1.997% |
| 73   | Dondozo            |  1.967% |
| 74   | Ceruledge          |  1.945% |
| 75   | Magnezone          |  1.711% |
| 76   | Venusaur-Mega      |  1.698% |
| 77   | Xurkitree          |  1.655% |
| 78   | Aegislash          |  1.576% |
| 79   | Sableye-Mega       |  1.576% |
| 80   | Iron Treads        |  1.553% |
| 81   | Skarmory           |  1.473% |
| 82   | Beedrill-Mega      |  1.457% |
| 83   | Hydreigon          |  1.413% |
| 84   | Slowking           |  1.412% |
| 85   | Meowscarada        |  1.377% |
| 86   | Mew                |  1.328% |
| 87   | Ribombee           |  1.289% |
| 88   | Ninetales-Alola    |  1.288% |
| 89   | Garchomp-Mega      |  1.235% |
| 90   | Ditto              |  1.228% |
| 91   | Kingdra            |  1.226% |
| 92   | Manaphy            |  1.224% |
| 93   | Celesteela         |  1.223% |
| 94   | Cresselia          |  1.150% |
| 95   | Pinsir-Mega        |  1.119% |
| 96   | Gastrodon          |  1.115% |
| 97   | Barraskewda        |  1.081% |
| 98   | Blacephalon        |  1.074% |
| 99   | Hippowdon          |  1.024% |
| 100  | Manectric-Mega     |  1.005% |
| 101  | Gardevoir-Mega     |  1.003% |


kingambit.gif

1 - 29.579%
This is the best Pokemon in the metagame right now; its pretty easy for anyone who has at least a handful of knowledge of the tier to know why its usage rate is so high. The immense utility this Pokemon provides for teams is insane, as its an excellent Dark- and Steel-type, is able to handle Dragapult, Tapu Lele, and Mega Diancie for offense and Gholdengo for slower teams, and generally makes a lot of progress quite easily. Swords Dance is just borderline broken on this in combination with Tera Dark and with enough Supreme Overlord boosts, so its quite brainless as a sweeper on HO and offense, while Pursuit is used on a variety of teamstyles, fitting on nearly all of them besides hard stall, which isn't in its best spot right now. Low Kick has been used with a few extra Speed EVs to snipe other Kingambit, while other utility options such as Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave have been used as well on it with success. Overall just an excellent Pokemon, and if you use it on a team of your I assure you that you'll benefit greatly from it.

:sv/cresselia:
94 - 1.150%
Let this explanation be a wake-up call for you all to use Stored Power sweepers! I'm honestly quite shocked at how low this Pokemon has been used since it's legit to use right now because of Tera Poison with Calm Mind in combination with a very balanced move in Stored Power. It's able to come into common Pokemon such as Great Tusk, Tapu Lele, non-Toxic or Taunt Tornadus-T, and Garganacl with a Covert Cloak equipped, then begin its snowball. Tera Poison lets it blank Toxic and improve its matchup against Gholdengo, who would otherwise outscale it with Nasty Plot and click a strong Shadow Ball. While it's somewhat of a matchup fish and can have a hard time setting up safely, it's still a very threatening Pokemon that can scale out of control. Leftovers and Covert Cloak are what I've seen be used on it, while also seeing an Electric Seed set on HO. Moonblast has been used to not become obsolete infront of Kingambit or Toxic to immediately threaten and cripple Pokemon who would otherwise sit on your or eat your hits with ease, like Ting-Lu and opposing Cresselia. Overall, it's a solid win condition on BO, Fat, and HO and in my opinion should be experimented with more. Stored Power is a very balanced move!

:sv/greninja:
45 - 3.617%
I think this Pokemon hasn't fell off completely, Choice Scarf is still ok since you don't have to worry about the one-time activation with Protean, and I've even see some people still make Fightinium Z work on it. Still a very mediocre Pokemon though, I'm not gassing it up that much. Use other Water-type breakers and pivots instead!

:sv/walking-wake:
4 - 18.880%
This Pokemon has been plaguing ladder with just straight Sun, and not to mention how hard it is to deal with in the first place. It just shreds through offense like its nothing, and can put fatter teams in a loop with its Substitute + Sunny Day sets. I really, really dislike this Pokemon as the counterplay is quite minimal and somewhat unreliable, and from what I have heard from the community, they have the same exact feeling about Walking Wake. Once this is banned, ladder will not just be sun, but rather Stored Power once everyone catches onto it. Sounds like a bad trade, but y'all should take what y'all can get. Send this thing to Jahannam!

Very questionable usage stats to say the least, but those are my opinions on some of the Pokemon featured on them. Be honest and don't spam sun on ladder!
 
Code:
Combined usage for National Dex (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          | 29.579% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   | 19.491% |
| 3    | Great Tusk         | 19.361% |
| 4    | Walking Wake       | 18.880% |
| 5    | Dragapult          | 15.223% |
| 6    | Charizard-Mega-Y   | 14.422% |
| 7    | Gholdengo          | 13.709% |
| 8    | Tapu Lele          | 12.660% |
| 9    | Heatran            | 12.304% |
| 10   | Zapdos             | 12.297% |
| 11   | Clodsire           | 11.741% |
| 12   | Tapu Koko          | 11.712% |
| 13   | Ferrothorn         | 11.550% |
| 14   | Lopunny-Mega       | 10.950% |
| 15   | Rillaboom          |  9.971% |
| 16   | Tornadus-Therian   |  9.138% |
| 17   | Rotom-Wash         |  8.780% |
| 18   | Diancie-Mega       |  8.602% |
| 19   | Scizor-Mega        |  8.599% |
| 20   | Garchomp           |  8.290% |
| 21   | Iron Valiant       |  8.277% |
| 22   | Hatterene          |  7.986% |
| 23   | Glimmora           |  7.819% |
| 24   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  7.755% |
| 25   | Kartana            |  7.714% |
| 26   | Dragonite          |  7.637% |
| 27   | Corviknight        |  7.457% |
| 28   | Volcarona          |  7.234% |
| 29   | Cyclizar           |  7.048% |
| 30   | Annihilape         |  6.422% |
| 31   | Torkoal            |  6.374% |
| 32   | Toxapex            |  6.244% |
| 33   | Pelipper           |  6.210% |
| 34   | Zamazenta          |  5.855% |
| 35   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  5.628% |
| 36   | Garganacl          |  5.598% |
| 37   | Swampert-Mega      |  5.221% |
| 38   | Zoroark-Hisui      |  4.866% |
| 39   | Skeledirge         |  4.452% |
| 40   | Grimmsnarl         |  4.179% |
| 41   | Tapu Fini          |  4.052% |
| 42   | Ting-Lu            |  3.815% |
| 43   | Gliscor            |  3.723% |
| 44   | Gyarados-Mega      |  3.677% |
| 45   | Greninja-Ash       |  3.617% |
| 46   | Tyranitar          |  3.523% |
| 47   | Kommo-o            |  3.467% |
| 48   | Serperior          |  3.340% |
| 49   | Victini            |  3.336% |
| 50   | Excadrill          |  3.325% |
| 51   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  2.989% |
| 52   | Iron Hands         |  2.966% |
| 53   | Chansey            |  2.960% |
| 54   | Mawile-Mega        |  2.890% |
| 55   | Medicham-Mega      |  2.881% |
| 56   | Weavile            |  2.801% |
| 57   | Baxcalibur         |  2.537% |
| 58   | Slowking-Galar     |  2.503% |
| 59   | Blissey            |  2.484% |
| 60   | Iron Moth          |  2.453% |
| 61   | Venusaur           |  2.440% |
| 62   | Kyurem             |  2.428% |
| 63   | Buzzwole           |  2.393% |
| 64   | Clefable           |  2.289% |
| 65   | Cinderace          |  2.243% |
| 66   | Hawlucha           |  2.201% |
| 67   | Blaziken           |  2.200% |
| 68   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.117% |
| 69   | Orthworm           |  2.071% |
| 70   | Slowbro            |  2.052% |
| 71   | Greninja           |  2.045% |
| 72   | Iron Leaves        |  1.997% |
| 73   | Dondozo            |  1.967% |
| 74   | Ceruledge          |  1.945% |
| 75   | Magnezone          |  1.711% |
| 76   | Venusaur-Mega      |  1.698% |
| 77   | Xurkitree          |  1.655% |
| 78   | Aegislash          |  1.576% |
| 79   | Sableye-Mega       |  1.576% |
| 80   | Iron Treads        |  1.553% |
| 81   | Skarmory           |  1.473% |
| 82   | Beedrill-Mega      |  1.457% |
| 83   | Hydreigon          |  1.413% |
| 84   | Slowking           |  1.412% |
| 85   | Meowscarada        |  1.377% |
| 86   | Mew                |  1.328% |
| 87   | Ribombee           |  1.289% |
| 88   | Ninetales-Alola    |  1.288% |
| 89   | Garchomp-Mega      |  1.235% |
| 90   | Ditto              |  1.228% |
| 91   | Kingdra            |  1.226% |
| 92   | Manaphy            |  1.224% |
| 93   | Celesteela         |  1.223% |
| 94   | Cresselia          |  1.150% |
| 95   | Pinsir-Mega        |  1.119% |
| 96   | Gastrodon          |  1.115% |
| 97   | Barraskewda        |  1.081% |
| 98   | Blacephalon        |  1.074% |
| 99   | Hippowdon          |  1.024% |
| 100  | Manectric-Mega     |  1.005% |
| 101  | Gardevoir-Mega     |  1.003% |


kingambit.gif

1 - 29.579%
This is the best Pokemon in the metagame right now; its pretty easy for anyone who has at least a handful of knowledge of the tier to know why its usage rate is so high. The immense utility this Pokemon provides for teams is insane, as its an excellent Dark- and Steel-type, is able to handle Dragapult, Tapu Lele, and Mega Diancie for offense and Gholdengo for slower teams, and generally makes a lot of progress quite easily. Swords Dance is just borderline broken on this in combination with Tera Dark and with enough Supreme Overlord boosts, so its quite brainless as a sweeper on HO and offense, while Pursuit is used on a variety of teamstyles, fitting on nearly all of them besides hard stall, which isn't in its best spot right now. Low Kick has been used with a few extra Speed EVs to snipe other Kingambit, while other utility options such as Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave have been used as well on it with success. Overall just an excellent Pokemon, and if you use it on a team of your I assure you that you'll benefit greatly from it.

:sv/cresselia:
94 - 1.150%
Let this explanation be a wake-up call for you all to use Stored Power sweepers! I'm honestly quite shocked at how low this Pokemon has been used since it's legit to use right now because of Tera Poison with Calm Mind in combination with a very balanced move in Stored Power. It's able to come into common Pokemon such as Great Tusk, Tapu Lele, non-Toxic or Taunt Tornadus-T, and Garganacl with a Covert Cloak equipped, then begin its snowball. Tera Poison lets it blank Toxic and improve its matchup against Gholdengo, who would otherwise outscale it with Nasty Plot and click a strong Shadow Ball. While it's somewhat of a matchup fish and can have a hard time setting up safely, it's still a very threatening Pokemon that can scale out of control. Leftovers and Covert Cloak are what I've seen be used on it, while also seeing an Electric Seed set on HO. Moonblast has been used to not become obsolete infront of Kingambit or Toxic to immediately threaten and cripple Pokemon who would otherwise sit on your or eat your hits with ease, like Ting-Lu and opposing Cresselia. Overall, it's a solid win condition on BO, Fat, and HO and in my opinion should be experimented with more. Stored Power is a very balanced move!

:sv/greninja:
45 - 3.617%
I think this Pokemon hasn't fell off completely, Choice Scarf is still ok since you don't have to worry about the one-time activation with Protean, and I've even see some people still make Fightinium Z work on it. Still a very mediocre Pokemon though, I'm not gassing it up that much. Use other Water-type breakers and pivots instead!

:sv/walking-wake:
4 - 18.880%
This Pokemon has been plaguing ladder with just straight Sun, and not to mention how hard it is to deal with in the first place. It just shreds through offense like its nothing, and can put fatter teams in a loop with its Substitute + Sunny Day sets. I really, really dislike this Pokemon as the counterplay is quite minimal and somewhat unreliable, and from what I have heard from the community, they have the same exact feeling about Walking Wake. Once this is banned, ladder will not just be sun, but rather Stored Power once everyone catches onto it. Sounds like a bad trade, but y'all should take what y'all can get. Send this thing to Jahannam!

Very questionable usage stats to say the least, but those are my opinions on some of the Pokemon featured on them. Be honest and don't spam sun on ladder!
Sorry, If I wanna be honest with myself, Sun is my call, so I will use it.(Altough I do think Wake should probably go, I am starting to kinda dislike sun mirrors.)
 
Last edited:
Walking Wake definitely has an unhealthy presence. It restricts teambuilding and is nearly impossible to handle without dedicated checks. Wake is a type of mon that increases usage of Sun, as well as counterplay against it.


This isn't like OU where you can afford to slap in a Wake check and call it a day. As we see, majority of Wake checks in OU don't get a lot of usage here, and Wake pressures offense in particular. Either you get destroyed by Hydro Steam or Draco Meteor. Bulky steel types get smacked by Flamethrower (which hits like a truck under sun + specs).

Wake needs to be suspect tested
 

about15guys

Who's this chainsaw man
is a Pre-Contributor
Ladder usage stats are up! (from here)
Code:
Combined usage for National Dex (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Kingambit          | 29.579% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   | 19.491% |
| 3    | Great Tusk         | 19.361% |
| 4    | Walking Wake       | 18.880% |
| 5    | Dragapult          | 15.223% |
| 6    | Charizard-Mega-Y   | 14.422% |
| 7    | Gholdengo          | 13.709% |
| 8    | Tapu Lele          | 12.660% |
| 9    | Heatran            | 12.304% |
| 10   | Zapdos             | 12.297% |
| 11   | Clodsire           | 11.741% |
| 12   | Tapu Koko          | 11.712% |
| 13   | Ferrothorn         | 11.550% |
| 14   | Lopunny-Mega       | 10.950% |
| 15   | Rillaboom          |  9.971% |
| 16   | Tornadus-Therian   |  9.138% |
| 17   | Rotom-Wash         |  8.780% |
| 18   | Diancie-Mega       |  8.602% |
| 19   | Scizor-Mega        |  8.599% |
| 20   | Garchomp           |  8.290% |
| 21   | Iron Valiant       |  8.277% |
| 22   | Hatterene          |  7.986% |
| 23   | Glimmora           |  7.819% |
| 24   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  7.755% |
| 25   | Kartana            |  7.714% |
| 26   | Dragonite          |  7.637% |
| 27   | Corviknight        |  7.457% |
| 28   | Volcarona          |  7.234% |
| 29   | Cyclizar           |  7.048% |
| 30   | Annihilape         |  6.422% |
| 31   | Torkoal            |  6.374% |
| 32   | Toxapex            |  6.244% |
| 33   | Pelipper           |  6.210% |
| 34   | Zamazenta          |  5.855% |
| 35   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  5.628% |
| 36   | Garganacl          |  5.598% |
| 37   | Swampert-Mega      |  5.221% |
| 38   | Zoroark-Hisui      |  4.866% |
| 39   | Skeledirge         |  4.452% |
| 40   | Grimmsnarl         |  4.179% |
| 41   | Tapu Fini          |  4.052% |
| 42   | Ting-Lu            |  3.815% |
| 43   | Gliscor            |  3.723% |
| 44   | Gyarados-Mega      |  3.677% |
| 45   | Greninja-Ash       |  3.617% |
| 46   | Tyranitar          |  3.523% |
| 47   | Kommo-o            |  3.467% |
| 48   | Serperior          |  3.340% |
| 49   | Victini            |  3.336% |
| 50   | Excadrill          |  3.325% |
| 51   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  2.989% |
| 52   | Iron Hands         |  2.966% |
| 53   | Chansey            |  2.960% |
| 54   | Mawile-Mega        |  2.890% |
| 55   | Medicham-Mega      |  2.881% |
| 56   | Weavile            |  2.801% |
| 57   | Baxcalibur         |  2.537% |
| 58   | Slowking-Galar     |  2.503% |
| 59   | Blissey            |  2.484% |
| 60   | Iron Moth          |  2.453% |
| 61   | Venusaur           |  2.440% |
| 62   | Kyurem             |  2.428% |
| 63   | Buzzwole           |  2.393% |
| 64   | Clefable           |  2.289% |
| 65   | Cinderace          |  2.243% |
| 66   | Hawlucha           |  2.201% |
| 67   | Blaziken           |  2.200% |
| 68   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.117% |
| 69   | Orthworm           |  2.071% |
| 70   | Slowbro            |  2.052% |
| 71   | Greninja           |  2.045% |
| 72   | Iron Leaves        |  1.997% |
| 73   | Dondozo            |  1.967% |
| 74   | Ceruledge          |  1.945% |
| 75   | Magnezone          |  1.711% |
| 76   | Venusaur-Mega      |  1.698% |
| 77   | Xurkitree          |  1.655% |
| 78   | Aegislash          |  1.576% |
| 79   | Sableye-Mega       |  1.576% |
| 80   | Iron Treads        |  1.553% |
| 81   | Skarmory           |  1.473% |
| 82   | Beedrill-Mega      |  1.457% |
| 83   | Hydreigon          |  1.413% |
| 84   | Slowking           |  1.412% |
| 85   | Meowscarada        |  1.377% |
| 86   | Mew                |  1.328% |
| 87   | Ribombee           |  1.289% |
| 88   | Ninetales-Alola    |  1.288% |
| 89   | Garchomp-Mega      |  1.235% |
| 90   | Ditto              |  1.228% |
| 91   | Kingdra            |  1.226% |
| 92   | Manaphy            |  1.224% |
| 93   | Celesteela         |  1.223% |
| 94   | Cresselia          |  1.150% |
| 95   | Pinsir-Mega        |  1.119% |
| 96   | Gastrodon          |  1.115% |
| 97   | Barraskewda        |  1.081% |
| 98   | Blacephalon        |  1.074% |
| 99   | Hippowdon          |  1.024% |
| 100  | Manectric-Mega     |  1.005% |
| 101  | Gardevoir-Mega     |  1.003% |
I'm curious to read y'all thoughts about this. What are the overrated/underrated threats on the ladder? Are there trends you are noticing? Of course the natdex ladder is known to sometimes not be the best (I doubt rilla really deserve 10% usage lol), but I think it still is interesting to look at the usages and try to figure out what people are trying to pull off at the moment.


There are a couple things I'd like to comment about:

:kingambit:
Kingambit being the most used mon in the tier is probably a surprise to no one, as it is worth considering on pretty much any playstyle ranging from fat to hyper offense, not only due to the sheer threat it poses but also its ability to trap dumb mon dragapult and to revenge a significant portion of the tier thanks to its strong sucker punches, which is something extremely valuable in a metagame overrun by a billion different threats that are often difficult to account for. Great Tusk being third is probably just the ladder coping with Kingambit tbh, especially considering how badly the mon matchups against most of the other top tiers.

:charizard-mega-y:
The natdex ladder always was known to be a bit obsessed by zardy, but I do not recall it ever taking the 6th spot on ladder stats, even during gen8. I assume that this is a consequence of the introduction of Walking Wake to the tier, and people attempting to abuse Protosynthesis. This would also explain how Torkoal went from February's 4.4% to the current 6.3%. Generally, it looks like ladder players decided to not sleep on walking wake, including it on a fifth of their teams. Even though I do think the mon deserves its OU (maybe top tier) status, I believe the new toy syndrome has a lot to do with this usage stat.

:clodsire:
Yada yada, the mon is not great, this is something that lot of pple said already, and this is not something I'm going to disagree with. That being said, I do think it being so high in the usages can be easily explained: it probably is a reaction to some mons that can be genuinely difficult to take account of in the builder, such as Walking Wake, Gholdengo or Iron Valiant. I think that also might mean that pple didn't realize yet that Kingambit can pursuit trap clodsire quite easily.
I'm honestly quite surprised by clod being #11 overall too, I really do not think the mon deserves to be as used as much as it is right now, but it's probably mainly due to mons like wake and specs pult being as common as they are

:Zapdos:
Ok now this came right out of left field for me, I can count the number of games I've seen where my opponent uses a zapdos in the past few weeks on one hand, although that might just be because I tend to hover around the 1400-1500 mark instead of the 1630 required
 

Nowno

la frappe du quartier est approuvé ✅
I just wanted to add quickly that even if I didn't have the mental strenght to do the recent suspect for Zamazenta, I think the main problem right now in this meta is Annihilape.

ND is overall really unfun and frustrating rn and that's globally why I didn't do the suspect, and so I would say it's really because of Annihilape which makes clicking an offensive move a bad choice most of the time, and it's truer the more defensive your Pokemon/team is. You may think that it makes the meta so cool and offensive but imo it just restrict possibility.

I think that with time, the higher the level get (elo doesn't mean much, but in usage stats, the higher the elo the higher Annihilape is), and the more the meta gets developed, the Pokemon will be more and more played, especially with the world cup coming.

In short I think a Pokemon with that bulk that has the reward of making you 50% closer to losing if it predicts you click U turn, Volt Switch, Scald, Any priority or really any weak attack is definitely a problem, I hate playing against Annihilape
 
gotta agree with ape, bu+taunt just shuts down almost every fatmon and turns it into complete setup fodder and tera plus its actually very good bulk means you can't just use any strong special attacker to deal with it after it bulks up. add in rage fist being a really easy to snowball move that totally bypasses unaware and how it can punish too many moves by switching in from defog to u-turn to just about every weak/resisted attack and you've got a mon that you sometimes wonder how do you even deal with (hzoro isn't exactly splashable). shutting down stall and balance like that isn't fun at all.
 

about15guys

Who's this chainsaw man
is a Pre-Contributor
I just wanted to add quickly that even if I didn't have the mental strenght to do the recent suspect for Zamazenta, I think the main problem right now in this meta is Annihilape.

ND is overall really unfun and frustrating rn and that's globally why I didn't do the suspect, and so I would say it's really because of Annihilape which makes clicking an offensive move a bad choice most of the time, and it's truer the more defensive your Pokemon/team is. You may think that it makes the meta so cool and offensive but imo it just restrict possibility.

I think that with time, the higher the level get (elo doesn't mean much, but in usage stats, the higher the elo the higher Annihilape is), and the more the meta gets developed, the Pokemon will be more and more played, especially with the world cup coming.

In short I think a Pokemon with that bulk that has the reward of making you 50% closer to losing if it predicts you click U turn, Volt Switch, Scald, Any priority or really any weak attack is definitely a problem, I hate playing against Annihilape
same here, zama sus felt kinda undeserved, while I do think the mon is problematic I think that ape is drastically much more of an issue to the metagame, how do you win a game of pokemon? by doing damage and clicking attacking moves, what does ape punish? doing damage and clicking attacking moves. I think its just super problematic as a whole, as its only counter (fast toxic as ape doesn't really care about burns) is kinda niche, and if ape slots rest over taunt you're generally just fucked. very annoying mon and I really hope it gets susd soon
(alongside cyclizar, mon's broken and got banned from S/V ou for a reason)
 
now, maybe i'm just not that good to know what is really going on behind the scenes, since i'm barely worthy of the 1700s. so, take what i say with an appropriate amount of salt, however much you deem that to be... but after getting reqs, I gotta say I don't get why garg/pult/gambit are OK but zama is not

tera water garg w/ rocks protect can solo games and that's okay for why? what reason. not to mention ID BP or block or curse.

tera ghost gambit to counter zama/lopunny/focus blast, tera dark gambit to OHKO anything, tera flying/fire gambit for immunities. very cool and epic pokemon that DEFINITELY does not force "50/50s" every single time it is out. you can even run pursuit/knock/sucker on the same set w/ black glasses.

pult tera ghost shadow ball is ridiculous, turning would-be 3HKOs into 2HKOs, making it impossible to deal with. as well, ghost-z pult. it's weird how pult didn't get the boot immediately when it was almost unanimously considered OP last gen, before being able to click adaptability shadow ball w/ specs at a speed which is only met by like... beedrill-m, sceptile-m, zeraora, aero-m? who you really don't see in OU. (I know there are faster but significantly worse mons other than these)

i ran into about 3 zamas in my final reqs run. two of 'em were banded. granted, i was playing mega altaria hippo skarm fat, so it is pretty easy to exploit that set. but it didn't ever feel like it was going to end my game. even when i was down to torn and pex, it had to click wild charge which is off-STAB and so it didn't OHKO torn and it died from recoil x)

and ID BP sets i saw literally never. though i can say emvee's zama team is pretty dope in how he complements that set w/ alolan muk to deal w/ ghosts. have faced both trailblaze and howl elec z zama as of last week and they weren't shit either. i feel the ID BP set is extremely weak to haze pex while the howl set just isn't fast or strong enough vs the immediate power of tera fighting banded CC.

TL:DR; go suspect other things pls
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
Proposal:

Conduct a metagame survey asap, and start the next suspect test as soon as the survey concludes, even if this means something gets banned during the upcoming natdex worldcup.

I think it is obvious to anyone involved with natdex that there is a huge dissatisfaction with the state of the tier among the playerbase, and I believe it would just hurt the community to have to wait two whole months before being able to do anything about it. The Zamazenta suspect also shows that a suspect test is, before anything, a community process, and thus it is important to properly assess what the playerbase think about the tier before starting one, otherwise it is just going to thud and we would lose 2 weeks while we could have suspected something else. I do understand the concerns with Zamazenta, but from my experience when you talk about the state of the tier with natdex players, Zamazenta is almost never the first mon they mention - if they mention it at all. This is why I suggest conducting a metagame survey before the next suspect.

Yes, you could argue it wouldn't be ideal to get tiering actions going while a tournament as important as ndwcop. However, ndwcop is also an opportunity to continue to push the metagame development forward, and it would just go to waste if you let it being a repeat of all the bullshit we have been seeing and talking about for months now.

Save natdex.
 

Sulo

shifting stars
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
National Dex Leader
Proposal:

Conduct a metagame survey asap, and start the next suspect test as soon as the survey concludes, even if this means something gets banned during the upcoming natdex worldcup.

I think it is obvious to anyone involved with natdex that there is a huge dissatisfaction with the state of the tier among the playerbase, and I believe it would just hurt the community to have to wait two whole months before being able to do anything about it. The Zamazenta suspect also shows that a suspect test is, before anything, a community process, and thus it is important to properly assess what the playerbase think about the tier before starting one, otherwise it is just going to thud and we would lose 2 weeks while we could have suspected something else. I do understand the concerns with Zamazenta, but from my experience when you talk about the state of the tier with natdex players, Zamazenta is almost never the first mon they mention - if they mention it at all. This is why I suggest conducting a metagame survey before the next suspect.

Yes, you could argue it wouldn't be ideal to get tiering actions going while a tournament as important as ndwcop. However, ndwcop is also an opportunity to continue to push the metagame development forward, and it would just go to waste if you let it being a repeat of all the bullshit we have been seeing and talking about for months now.

Save natdex.
Just so you know, a survey is very much going to happen. I'm pretty sure Kyo mentioned this in a discussion today. Thanks for the proposal, though. I heavily agree that we need to take more community input regarding broken elements of the tier (or proposed broken elements, stuff that isn't as obviously broken and garners a ton of contention in discussions).
 
Well boyz, If u haven't heard the news already...
Zama has survived the ban hammer...
View attachment 505814 so yeah, I would like to hear people's toughts on the dog staying in the tier, do you agree or disagree with its decision?
Zama is fine, never had a problem with it really, when I think of troublesome fighting types generally is either Waterfu, Rageape or Valiant.

Now about the state of the meta, I think ND is pretty close to a good meta, there's only one stinker here and that is Terastalization. Gonna sound like a bloody broken record here but really, most of the issues are coming from it in my opinion. Thanks to Tera very good mons become Broken mons or at least borderline broken. Ape, Garga and many others would not be so cancerous if they could not dodge their exploitable weaknesses at the drop of a hat and then there are the mons who use it offensively to disgusting ends like Wake nuking stuff with Tera Water, Sharp cleaning up with Tera Dark, etc, futhermore let's not forget the growing trend of mons abusing Tera Poison/Steel to set up with impunity and win games, stuff like that made me really hate Mew and Cresselia and let's not get started on all the mons banned because they got broken by Tera. Really let's just get rid of Tera, the previous Survey said they got a sizeable amount of support to do something about it, the thread asking about Tera got support for either a ban or do something, ANYTHING about it, I say that's worth another go, at least before bank comes up and we get a new amount of stuff to worry about.

TL/DR: Zama is fine, there's bigger fish to fry, biggest one is Tera in my opinion. Suspect it and ban it to make the meta healthier.
 

about15guys

Who's this chainsaw man
is a Pre-Contributor
Chili Dewd is working on a current archetype tierlist, so I figured I'd post my take on it here and gather other people's thoughts on it before the big one gets posted, what do you think and would you rate anything differently and for what reasons?

S Tier is for the best of the best right now, great teambuilding ideas that can usually never go wrong
A Tier is ideas that are generally great, just not as good as the S tier
B Tier is for the archetypes that are fine, but mainly just have one issue holding them back
C Tier is for the stinkers, archetypes I'd just recommend not using ever

:woop: :woop: :woop:
S Tier: Screens HO, Sun
Screens HO doing Screens HO things, throw 4 setup sweepers together, put em behind screens and a shed tail sub, let them go to town gg ez

Sun is just plain broken rn, the more I play against wake the more I realize how stupid that mon is, while full sun is a bit less reliable semisun is phenomenal

:woop: :woop:
A Tier: Rain, Fat, BO
Rain's still good but ppl learning how to build around it more and mons like physdef washtom or physdef pex make rain sweepers have a much harder time actually doing stuff

Fat got some phenomenal mons this gen, dirge and garg are both godsends, garg packing insane chip and setup potential with idpress and skeledirge snowballing out of control very fast if unchecked

BO is basically always going to be good, its got some great mons like mlop with some good mus into notable threats this gen, mainly gambit and in general the archetype is just consistent, especially with all star mons like tera grass heatran and the like

:woop:
B Tier: Webs HO, Offense
Webs HO can pack a lot of power, but the reliance on certain mons and the near requirement to have webs up in order to do anything makes it generally unreliable to use and a bit irritating to work with

Offense isn't necessarily bad right now, its just that everything surrounding it is better, so you've got much better things to be doing than running it right now

:pikuh:
C Tier: Trick Room, Snow HO, Sand Offense/Balance
Trick Room is always going to be a pretty middling archetype, but when all its main abusers (:melmetal: and :magearna:) got banned, it fell of HARD, getting room up is unreliable, and the lack of availability for it to actually be up makes it unwieldy and prone to getting stalled out with regenspam or protect

Snow HO, Sand Offense and Sand Balance all suffer the same issues, which is a general lack of good abusers or setters, snow has 4 possible setters, and they're all terrible, alongside a complete lack of abusers for snow outside of like literally arctozolt. Sand has mainly the same issues, only this time you've only got 3 setters, one of which is gigalith. The main issue I have with sand is you're basically forced into running rock types, which makes you really frail on the defensive side, alongside being railroaded into using tyranitar, which is either just a bad mon or takes up the mega slot, neither of which is ideal. While I've never really run any of these archetypes seriously, from an outside perspective they just look plain bad, if these are secretly sleeper, let me know but until then I'm going to stick to other options

:tymp:
Z Tier: Stall
Sorry Kids! Stall is hot ass this gen! I've been running it for a while, and making it past the 1550-1600 mark just feels basically impossible, because as it turns out, giving every pokemon ever access to adaptability at will is a deathblow to defensive playstyles! The main reason why fat is so high up though is because while it relies on chip for damage, it's usually got some offensive mons in there, which often abuse tera and sweep teams after the chip they're known for weakens the checks enough, while stall's only avenue for victory is chipping with either sand, hazardspam, status or garg. Sand chip is weak to other weather setters (Sun and Rain both being s or a tier) and also is completely meaningless without other chip, hazardspam can be used, but the main issue is if you primarily rely on it, you've gotta run ghold to keep them up, which is a massive weakness since most good foggers have a tool that can chunk ghold on the switch. Toxic/Burn struggles with mons that are immune to the status condition, or the odd heal bell mon (pro tip: stall players HATE heal bell) and while garg is a great mon, it tends to use tera and if it dies, you're basically fucked
 
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Zama is fine, never had a problem with it really, when I think of troublesome fighting types generally is either Waterfu, Rageape or Valiant.

Now about the state of the meta, I think ND is pretty close to a good meta, there's only one stinker here and that is Terastalization. Gonna sound like a bloody broken record here but really, most of the issues are coming from it in my opinion. Thanks to Tera very good mons become Broken mons or at least borderline broken. Ape, Garga and many others would not be so cancerous if they could not dodge their exploitable weaknesses at the drop of a hat and then there are the mons who use it offensively to disgusting ends like Wake nuking stuff with Tera Water, Sharp cleaning up with Tera Dark, etc, futhermore let's not forget the growing trend of mons abusing Tera Poison/Steel to set up with impunity and win games, stuff like that made me really hate Mew and Cresselia and let's not get started on all the mons banned because they got broken by Tera. Really let's just get rid of Tera, the previous Survey said they got a sizeable amount of support to do something about it, the thread asking about Tera got support for either a ban or do something, ANYTHING about it, I say that's worth another go, at least before bank comes up and we get a new amount of stuff to worry about.

TL/DR: Zama is fine, there's bigger fish to fry, biggest one is Tera in my opinion. Suspect it and ban it to make the meta healthier.

Rapid strike definitely needs to be looked into, swords dance+taunt makes it downright dumb to try and wall it.

And yeah, tera is definitely starting to rear its ugly head again
 
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Chili Dewd is working on a current archetype tierlist, so I figured I'd post my take on it here and gather other people's thoughts on it before the big one gets posted, what do you think and would you rate anything differently and for what reasons?

S Tier is for the best of the best right now, great teambuilding ideas that can usually never go wrong
A Tier is ideas that are generally great, just not as good as the S tier
B Tier is for the archetypes that are fine, but mainly just have one issue holding them back
C Tier is for the stinkers, archetypes I'd just recommend not using ever
i pretty much agree. maybe put suicide lead HO in A or B tier as well (azelf for instance).
RIP hail/snow. i will say that coupling slowking/galar with baxcalibur/arctozolt is pretty nice, but that is best done on BO/balance instead.

trick room is OK i've def gotten destroyed by banded tera dark hoopa-u before. couple that with mawile and/or your classic marowak-a w/ tera ghost/fire and you've got a lot of pressure. i haven't played it enough to rate it properly, nor have i really seen it. casual trick room on reuni/hatt is still pretty cool, maybe w/ psychium z. i've best been able to beat TR with fat and your generic ditto HO.

sand balance is good if you're talking about hippo + skarm + garg LOL but if you mean ttar exca balance w/ ferro + keld/reuni then yeah it's meh. zard y sand is pretty good but you either need your own wake or some AV tang/ttar idk. wake moment.
 
i pretty much agree. maybe put suicide lead HO in A or B tier as well (azelf for instance).
RIP hail/snow. i will say that coupling slowking/galar with baxcalibur/arctozolt is pretty nice, but that is best done on BO/balance instead.

trick room is OK i've def gotten destroyed by banded tera dark hoopa-u before. couple that with mawile and/or your classic marowak-a w/ tera ghost/fire and you've got a lot of pressure. i haven't played it enough to rate it properly, nor have i really seen it. casual trick room on reuni/hatt is still pretty cool, maybe w/ psychium z. i've best been able to beat TR with fat and your generic ditto HO.

sand balance is good if you're talking about hippo + skarm + garg LOL but if you mean ttar exca balance w/ ferro + keld/reuni then yeah it's meh. zard y sand is pretty good but you either need your own wake or some AV tang/ttar idk. wake moment.
The problem with TR is that you can extend any weather or terrain to 8 turns but there isn't any item for TR. Moves like Fake Out (Mega-Lop) or Protect (Ferro, Garg, Pex) can simply stall your turns.

Besides that, dual screens and strong priority moves (Kingambit) make it very difficult to be played. It's a niche, more than ever.
 
Okay then, I guess were doing this...
CoverImage.png


Since about15guys already did the favor and promoted my project(why didn't i tought of posting it here to begin with?) I may as well go all in then... So here is the gist.
:woop::woop::woop:= S
:woop::woop:= A
:woop:= B
:pikuh:=C

Screens HO, Webs HO, Snow HO, Rain, Sun, Sand Offense, Sand Balance, BO, Balance, Fat, Stall, Trick Room

Basically I am Building a community "Archetype" tier list, with many of them gotten better or worse, I felt like doing one in order to understand the overall metagame better felt kewl 2 dew(cool 2 do in english). Just rank them the way u think its right. If u want to add some details explaining on why said arquetype deserves said tier, i will appreciate your opinion, but it is not obligatory. take your time in doing the tier list, do not rush it. Feel free to post it in here, or send it to my smogon page personally, it doesn't have a deadline atm, but there could be, so I could do the project eventually.
 
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R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
So if you didn't notice yet, the council is conducting a survey about the state of the metagame. I kinda lack the time to do a post about my thoughts at the moment, but I'm still curious to read what y'all think about the metagame right now, what you think should be suspect tested/banned, if you think something else should have been mentioned in the survey, or whatever else you might want to say. So, what do think?
 
So if you didn't notice yet, the council is conducting a survey about the state of the metagame. I kinda lack the time to do a post about my thoughts at the moment, but I'm still curious to read what y'all think about the metagame right now, what you think should be suspect tested/banned, if you think something else should have been mentioned in the survey, or whatever else you might want to say. So, what do think?
Well, as a guy who was been around since the first day of gen 9 national dex. I can possibly think some of the tested/banned mons would be something like this:
Sustest for banning:
Dragapult, Kingambit, Annihilape, Walking Wake, Terastalization.

:Dragapult: A fast, Deadly pokemon that can destroy full teams by storm. After a single Dragon Dance, this thing can outspeed almost everything, even something as fast as Choice Scarf Iron Valiant(without Proto Speed Boost) for those who want numbers IVal hits 546 speed, meanwhile an adamant Pult hits 574. As if that wasn't enough, it has 2 other excellent sets in Choice Specs and Hex. However, the only reason why Dragapult isn't demolishing the tier as expected, is because of Kingambit, as the chess piece resist Both of its Stabs, shreds it with Sucker Punch, and can take opportunity of Pult's switch in out with either SD or Pursuit. Which means that if Kingambit was banned, Pult would most likely Destroy the tier, as the second best option, Tyranitar, while decent, it matches bit worse against the rest of the metagame as a whole. And Weavile, another great pursuiter on its own right, its slower that Pult, meaning pult can still blast threw if it goes for Pursuit due to vile's frailty, or simply switch out a bit safer predicting an Ice Shard. Both are still good against Pult, but they're easier to dealt with than Kingambit.

:Kingambit: U know, it's name is pretty suiting, cause it has become the new king of the tier, as it is the #1 poke in usage stats, beating even Landorus-T of all things. So what does this mon do that it gives him such an honorable placing? Simply Imagine if Tyranitar and Mega Mawile had a baby, this is Kingambit. Kingambit having Tyranitar's Dark Stab and access to Pursuit, and Mawile's Steel typing and access to Iron Head and Sucker Punch. But it doesnt end there, as it also gets Swords Dance, and with a monstrous atk stat of 135, it can drop things with ease. And similar to what made Mega Mawile such a terror in its prime, what really makes many players fear/hate gambit its Sucker Punch, which gives it priority and can hit incredibly hard between Stab, 135 atk, Tera, and one of its abilities, Supreme Overlord(more like Supreme Edgelord) which gives it a 10% boost per fainted teammate, meaning that it gets a max of 50% if its the last mon in your team, and between its power, bulk, typing and priority, it can be hard to deal with. However, Defiant Gambit is a whole different beast as well, as it can punish Landorus-T's and it's Intimidate by getting a plus +2, meaning that it technically gets a +1 from Intimidate, and it can also get a +2 from Defog, thus making it harder for the opponent to get rid of hazards without being punished for it. It is easily the best Dragapult answer in the tier, as it prevents it from going rampid. And it isn't just a Pult answer, as it also an amazing revenge killer as I already explained. Kingambit is so good, that it can be slapped on almost any kind of playstyle, Balance cause it's good all around, HO for its bulk, power, and revenge killing capabilities, Fat for a similar role, Sun and Rain to handle Dragapult, and even Trick Room heavily appreciates having a 50 speed mon, with all of Kingambit's qualities. So it's number #1 placing in the usage stats seems to make sense.

:Annihilape: A.K.A gamer but swag 's public enemy #1, now why is that exactly? Simply put, it demolishes defensive play like little else could. First things first it's Ape's signature move, Rage Fist, which becomes stronger anytime it gets hit ny an attack. So from a single hit, it goes from a measly 50 base power move, to a more respectable 100, that's 1 hit. The move can power itself up to 5 times, making at max capacity 250 base power, that is only 50 less than the all hated move, Last Respects. Amd with decent bulk, Bulk Up, and Taunt or Sub to avoid crippling status, Annihilape is really difficult, sometimes almost impossible for slower bulkier teams to handle. But Annihilape is just a nightmare for defensive play, as it can go toe to toe with offense as well, in fact it's a actually decent pokemon to play in Screens or Webs Offense, with webs dropping certain pokemon speed tiers, allowijg ape to catch up to them, and dual Screens giving an extra layer of defense, allowing to take hits better, and thus facilitating its Rage Fist, Bulk Up and Taunt antics. The one true consistent method of dealing with Ape is being to OHKO'it or least 2HKO'it (Or use Hisuian Zoroark).

:Walking Wake: This is where the more personal comes in, as I have been a Sun Main since day 1 in gen 9 natdex. At the begging Sun was an already decent playstyle, with the addition of Great Tusk, Roaring Moon, Chi Yu and Flutter Mane(before the ladder 3 got banned), as well as other more niche ones like Scovillain and Slither Wing, Sun had its decent options on top of classics like Victini and Blaziken(and Mega Blaze before it also got banned). Then Walking Wake was announced, and once I saw what it could do, I knew this would rise Sun to a whole new level. Between its great special atk of 125, speed of 109, amazing typing with decent bulk and its signature moce Hydro Steam, Sun was becoming incredibly popular overnight. However, as time moved on, Walking Woke terror in the ladder(sorry not sorry for the pun), as it had prove to be a bit difficult to handle defensively. The few "true" counters to Walking Wake, Chansey, Blissey, Tapu Fini and Clodsire, weren't impossible to manage. Chansey and Blissey are pretty useless outside of walling Wake, and Wake is usually paired with Tusk to handle mons like the blobs. Tapu Fini doesn't have a reliable recovery, and Clodsire is a similar treatment as Chansey and Blissey(aka afraid of Tusk). In fact it became so popular in ladder, a new form of sun was starting to see more usage, SemiSun, where they only ran sun from Mega Zard Y, and not torkoal. The core of Yard+Wake+Tusk is a deadly one, Yard sets the tempo for Wake and Tusk while also being an offensive threat of its own, Wake gained a Spatk or Speed boost depending on evs. And Tusk rips any special wall on yard and Wake's way, while also spinning hazards away for Yard. Some extra's included the likes of Kingambit, Zamazenta, Hatterene, Clodsire, Venusaur, Glimmora, Tapu Lele, to name a few. Walking Wake has without a doubt shaped the metagame, between dealing with Wake, or abusing Wake, the meta has adapted greatly by it's precense.

Terastalization: This one we have talked about it for so long, but in short, it is metawarping. Seeing Heatran turning into tera Grass or Flying for its Ground Weakness, or a Kingambit using Tera Dark for its already scary Sucker Punches, there is no question of Tera's presence in the metagame. Many of the banned Pokemon like Regieleki, Chien Pao, and Roaring Moon, where because of Tera, and even if we banned all 4 of the mons i talked about, there will still be some way to abuse tera, either offensively of defensively.
 
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So if you didn't notice yet, the council is conducting a survey about the state of the metagame. I kinda lack the time to do a post about my thoughts at the moment, but I'm still curious to read what y'all think about the metagame right now, what you think should be suspect tested/banned, if you think something else should have been mentioned in the survey, or whatever else you might want to say. So, what do think?
Survey was great, addressed most problems w/ the meta, and hopefully it means a tera suspect is imminent, after which most of the mons adressed will be a lot more manageble. Pult imo is borderline broken rn but w/o tera boosted draco/sball it's gonna be fine. Ape might still be too much but prob will be fine w/o the ability to resist every move in the game on a whim and with ho losing a ton of tools. Kgambit's only broken aspect rn is tera dark orb/glasses +2 koff/sucker doing obscene amounts of damage, tera fly/fairy/water making rking it a 50/50 is also unhealthy but that's also leaving so its gonna be perfectly fine. Wake might still need a test bc alot of cplay is tera fairy/water to be immune/resistant to one of its stabs but you don't have tera water steam that you can spam as freely anymore so resists actually resist instead of getting 2hko'd. Garg is extremely tera relaint but will still be decent bc purifying salt and salt cure are both insane but it won't be as essential to stall (and fatter teams in general) as it is rn, and that coupled with the lack of free adaptability on every mon allowing resists to resist moves might allow for more experimentation in stall. Tran is fine, the only problem w/ it is tera grass being v hard to kill for alot of teams. cyc will prob still need to get banned imo but mayb not since ho looses so many potential (cheese) mons w/o tera. Rain will defo be fine. Other mons not discussed that are currently problematic like zama/lele/volc/kart/val/dnite/etc will also be fine bc the only broken part abt them is their interaction w/ tera. Wanted to also note how getting rid of tera lets you customize evs alot more, now that you don't have to run max max pex/tom to stand a chance against rain. So suspect order imo should be tera>>>>>>ww>ape>=cyc and then the tier should be perfectly fine, atleast a lot lot lot better than the shitfest it is rn.
 
Okay then, Ladies and Gentlemen, woopers of all ages, It is time for the moment We've all been waiting for... The 1st Gen 9 National Dex Team Playstyle "Archetype" Tier List...

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For those who don't know what an "archetype" or in simplier words, a team playstyle, strategy and synergy are two of the most important aspects of competitive Pokémon teambuilding. The foundation of both of these things is your chosen playstyle; the most stripped down, basic way your team is meant to function. Think of these as rpg or fighting game characters, were they all function differently, and thus have different strategies in order to win. So after being around here since day 1 and have 2 teambuild guides as well(go check them out if you can) I felt like doing an overall tier list would be a good idea. Still, I didn't wanted to do it just by myself for a more concrete tier list based on the natdex community, so I asked a few players who also have similar or more experience than myself. So to not keep you waiting... let's just jump into it...


I'll be naming each playstyle or achetype(you tell which word you prefer) from worst to best. Now this doesn't mean you shouldn't play them just based on the rank, even if your favorite playstyle being at the bottom of the barrell, as long as you know the matchup, and prep the team well, you can beat even higher ranked teams if skilled enough, so without further a do, lets get started...

C tier
:pikuh:

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Stall(12th place)

What ever happened to Smogon's beloved? Well, this one suprises almost no one. Stall is that ever hated playstyle where the player slowly but surely cripples you with chip damage until it eventually wins that way. A frustrating playstyle to deal with, but also similarly frustrating to play, as you have to think your plays carefully. Every single component of stall is crucial, from its teammates to its hazards and status. Some of the main ways to cripple the opponent include Toxic, hazards, sand chip, burns, knock off and even pp stalling till the opponent eventually runs out of moves. Some of the most well known mons in stall include Mega Sableye, Toxapex, Chansey, Clefable, Gliscor, Skarmory, Quagsire, Clodsire to name a few. Now with that said, Stall was done really dirty this gen. The most obvious inmediate hit is the pp nerf to all heal moves minus Wish(and Heal Order, but nobody uses Vespiquen). This alone ruins many pokemon, as they're ability to heal damage of threw these moves was crucial for them, especially for Stall. However, this wasn't the only hit to Stall, the addition of Terastalization while useful to change their typing defensively, also made already strong mons like Iron Valiant, rain abusers like Floatzel and Barraskewda, and much more, even more absurd to take hits from. To give u an idea, a Choice Band Floatzel with Water Tera under Tera 2hkos Toxapex of all things, and if it can handle that, it can easily demolish Stall in an eye blink. And to add salt to injury(quite literal) Garganacal as well as Gholdengo are a dead sentence for any Stall team, as their abilities allow them to simply ignore chip damage, as they can't be statused at all, unless u gets a lucky Scald burn in Gholddengo's case, but not Garganacal. You saw Stall before, you were infurious, now u see s
Stall and u almost laugh at it. Out of the 12 people that voted, only 3 of them think stall should be B tier, meanwhile the rest clearly aggres it deserves the C tier. In fact 1 player in particular even made gave it Z tier, which wasn't even a proper tier placement, but about15guys gave it anyway. He also gave an overall explanation of why he thinks stall is completely unviable. So to the suprise of almost no one, Stall is the worse team playstyle in Gen 9 NatDex OU.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=0
A:woop::woop:=0
B:woop:=3
C:pikuh:=9


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Trick Room(11th place)

Trick Room is a very unique playstyle to say the least. As the name implies, this teamstyle revolves around abusing the presence of Trick Room, a move that while active, the slowest pokemom will hit first(excluding priority). This is potentially devastating against a faster frailer team such as HO teams and certain weathers like Rain and Sun. Some of the best Trick Room setter include the likes of Hatterene, Cresselia, Porygon2, Slowbro and Stakataka. Stakataka in particular is both an enabler AND an abuser of Trick Room. Other abusers include Vikavolt, Torkoal, Iron Hands, Alolan Marowak, Mega Mawile, Mega Camerupt and Kingambit. However, this playstyle as a whole is incredibly niche, as it is incredibly matchup dependant. They Heavily rely on Trick Room being out for their win condition, which they can only abuse for 5 turns, technically 4 in order to bring em out, meanwhile weathers can abuse their respective win conditions for 8 instead. And while some of them are quite bulky, theyre not impossible to take down outside of Trick Room. It does pretty well against faster and frailer teams like the Hyper Offensive teams, but not so hot against more bulkier or even balanced teams that hardly even care of Trick Room being up. In fact similar to Stall, another player didnt even bother rank it up and straight up sayd its ur. Even still, it beated Stall by just 1 point, and it at least has a niche against offensively heavy playstyles.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=0
A:woop::woop:=1
B:woop:=2
C:pikuh:=9


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Sand Offense(10th place)

Sand Offense is one of the 2 traditional ways Sand Teams are played as a playstyle. Sand Offense is about embrassing the presence of Sand and abusing it, similar to Sun, Rain, and the new Snow. The some of the bests abusers are Excadrill, Dracozolt, and Mega Garchomp, as they get extra benefits from sand like Sand Rush or Sand Force. Tyranitar is an alright setter, as it can be a bulky wallbreaker on top of setting Sand Stream, but you can also use Hippowdon over it, or alongside it for more longevity, and thus more opportunities to set Sand Stream. This all sounds great in paper, but not so much in practice. Mainly cuz the Sand Offense playstyle as a whole, is outclassed by Sun and Rain. Both Sun and Rain gets a 50% boost to Fire and Water moves respectively, meanwhile Sand does not. To be fair that was never an issue, the real issue is that the other weather teams gained new toys that elevated them, meanwhile the one sand got, Houndstone, was quickbanned for good reason. Dracozolt is quite slow EVEN in Sand, and Excadrill while Strong and Fast, has trouble breaking certain mons in the tier. And Mega Garchomp, while decent once it gets going, its not easy to get going in the first place. Even Snow is considered better, cuz it has better ways to abuse Snow like Aurora Veil. Overall Sand Offense can really use some new toys to play with, like better Sand Rush abuser or an Aurora Veil like move but for Sand.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=0
A:woop::woop:=1
B:woop:=3
C:pikuh:=8



B Tier
:woop:

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Snow HO(9th place)

Snow is the new replacement for Hail in this generation, as Snow Warning now summons Snow upon entry instead(Although the move Hail still exist here in Natdex). Most if not all the same interactions that you had with Hail also work with Snow, like Slush Rush, Ice Body, and of course, Aurora Veil. The main difference is that instead of Snow doing chip damage every turn all non-Ice types, Ice types instead gain a 50% physical defense boost. This may not seem that great at first, considering Ice is the worst defensive type in the game. However, this boost in conjuction with Aurora Veil, Ice types would have a 100% physical defense, and a 50% special defense boost in total, which is pretty good if you think about it. Snow HO is quite straightfoward, you bring in a Snow Warning mon, mainly Alolan Ninetales, setup Aurora Veil, and abuse them as much as possible. This makes it play similar to Sun and Rain, but also Screens Offense as well, which gives it quite the layers of offensive prowess. Some abusers of Snow are Arctozolt and Baxcalibur, but since this playstyle also behaves as a Screens Offense, it can also take a similar mental and run mons like Volcarona, Gholdengo, Annihilape and much more, without the drawback of being chipped like you would with Hail. They also gained a new move in Chilly Reception, a Uturn like move that instead of dealing damage, it sets up Snow upon switchin out. These moves were given to both forms of Slowking, which are both decent pivot mons that can also set Future Sight for extra pressure on the opponent. So with all of this going for it, why is it only B tier? Despite all these good qualities, it also has a lot holding it back. First off, it has to try and compete with other weathers, as they can just switch in their weather setter and interrupt Alolan Ninetales's attempts to setup Aurora Veil. And speaking of Veil, it also has a hard time with the 2 premier Screen seters, Tapu Koko and Grimmsnarl, as they can also shut the fox's attempts with fast Taunts. On top of that, Alolan Ninetales itself isn't really great, as it has an abysmal defensive typing, as something as simple as M-Scizor's Bullet Punch OHKOes it 100% if the time unless it uses Tera, which also means u would sacrifice offensive prowess to keep your setter alive. And both Slowkings are also weak to Pursuit, and with how almost omnipresent Kingambit is, the task of setting Snow threw Chilly Reception is also difficult. In other words, the conditions for Snow to set the tempo in order to get going are extremely difficult to fullfill. However, IF you can get it going, it can be a force to be reckoned with.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=0
A:woop::woop:=1
B:woop:=4
C:pikuh:=7


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Sand Balance(8th place)

Sand Balance is the 2nd traditional way of playing Sand teams, the other which we've talked about already. Sand Balance uses Sand in the opposite way of Sand Offense, instead of using it to abuser sweepers in a similar fashion to other weathers, they use the more defensive aspect of Sand. Sand boostes the Special Defense of all Rock-types by 50%, and while this isn't commonly very beneficial since the Sand setter of these teams is mainly Hippowdon, not Tyranitar, it can come in handy for something like Garganacal. But of course, while active, Sand deals 6% of chip damage to all non-Rock, Steel, and Ground types(or Pokemon with other abilities like Magic Guard and Overcoat as well). Of course Sand does use Sand Rush and/or Sand Force users as well, just not to the extreme of Sand Offense. Which is why many people think that Sand Balance is better overall, at least according to this list. Some great Sand Balance members include the already mentioned Hippowdon, as well as others like Skarmory, Garchomp, Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Garganacal, Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Landorus-T and Heatran. Both playstyle are very similar to each other, with the big different being that in here you use a similar mentality as you would with regular Balance, but add the elements of Sand to Now it still isn't that amazing, as it has similat issues as Sand Offense does, for example it can still struggle vs the other weathers, even with how bulky Hippowdon tends to be. But it is at least better than its more Offensive version.

Total Votes:
S :woop: :woop: :woop: =0
A:woop::woop:=3
B:woop:=4
C:pikuh:=5


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Webs HO(7th place)

Webs HO is yet another Hyper Offensive playstyle. And as the name implies, the playstle is all about abusing the Sticky Webs, a hazard that upon entry lowers the speed of the pokemon by 1 stage. This opens up potential for certain pokemon to sweep, like Xurkitre, Mega Heracross and Thundurs-T for example. Shuckle and Ribombee are the premier setters for the job, Shuckle is bulkier and can also setup Stealth Rocks for the team, and Ribombee is faster, has access to Skill Swap for any Magic Bounce attempt from Hatterene or Mega Diancie, and can also paralyze with Stun Spore. The addition of Gholdengo also helped significantly, as it can deny both Rapid Spin due to being part Ghost type, and Defog with its ability Good As Gold. Gholdengo itself is a great Webs abuser with its high Spatk, decent speed, and appreciates the opposing team having their speed lowered. However, the problem the Webs HO teams had back in the day is still present, and that is that the hazard only targets grounded pokemon, meaning Flying types, Levitate mons or even Heavy Duty Boots can simply bypass them. Plus it isn't an automatic win even with those being dealth with, as slower and bulkier teams care very little of webs, if at all. Plus even Gholdengo can still be played around, with its weaknesses to Ghost, Dark, Ground and Fire, all of which are pretty common in this metagame. Even still, Webs HO is a pretty interesting archetype that can keep up with some of the best.


Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=0
A:woop::woop:=4
B:woop:=6
C:pikuh:=2


A Tier:
:woop::woop:

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Balance(6th place)

Balance is one of the most customizable playstyles out there. This playstyle is an overall Balance between Offense and Defense. From the offensive side of the coin, you have between Setup Sweepers, Revenge Killers and Wallbreakers. And from the defensive side of the coin, we have walls that usually cover the teams weaknesses, as well as each other's weaknesses, between 2 or 3 pokemon. Their job is to switchin, and cripple the opponent between status likr burns, paralysis and poison, as well as Knock Off. Once they set the tempo, you bring your offensive mons to potentially win the game from there. There is many ways you can build these type of teams, making the playstyle consistent and adaptable. Because of this, They're isn't a true right or wrong on how to build them, just as long as the pokemon in the team are good themselves. Some honorable mentions for offensive mons on Balance teams include; Annihilape, Dragapult, Great Tusk, Kingambit, Zamazenta, Iron Valiant, Gholdengo, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Garchomp, Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, Mega Diancie, Tornadus-T to name a few. For defensive mons we have Corviknight, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Rotom-Wash, Toxapex, Clodsire, Skeledirge, Garganacal, Skarmory, Tangrowth, Slowbro, Zapdos, Gastrodon, Landorus-T, Gliscor. and much more. In fact some of these can work as both offensive threads AND defensive backbones at the same time like Great Tusk, Landorus-T and Garchomp for example. And this is just the tip of the iceberg when its comes to the pokemon ypu can add to the team, and these rules are similar for BO and Fat to some extend. If they're could be an actual weakness to the playstyle, if any, is maybe that they don't excel in everything. HO is always going to be more aggresive, meanwhile Stall is going to be more defensive. But honestly, this barely even feels as a weakness, if you want to even consider that as a weakness, which is why Balance teams are some of the best playstyles in the metagame.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=0
A:woop::woop:=6
B:woop:=6
C:pikuh:=0


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Fat(5th place)

For those who aren't aware already, Fat is basically an unofficial term for yet another playstyle. Fat is pretty similar to BO, but it aims more towards Stall than its more offensive cousin. So Fat is pretty much a 60% stall(sometimes even more) and 40% offense(sometimes even less). Their teams usually consist of 4, sometimes even 5 stallmons, and then add a wallbreaker, or form of speed control to just to not get overwhelmed by the opponent. This may sound odd that Fat is this high up meanwhile Stall is at the very bottom of the tier list, but you need to remember pure Stall lacks offensive prowess. In general, it can stall the game for a while, by crippling the opponents team with status, hazards and knock off, similar to a Stall team, and even occasionally win in that fashion. However, that is where the wallbreaker comes in as an alternative win condition. Between this playstyle, Balance, and BO there seems to been a lot in common, but they have slight differences that are enough to make them overall different playstyles to each other. Fat isn't similarly customizable as Balance and BO, as it uses the ideal of Stall as part of their structure. A Stall core they use often is Hippowdon and Skarmory, or HippoSkarm, alongside Toxapex and between Garganacal or Skeledirge, with the wallbreaker and/or speed controls usually being Mega Lopunny, Tornadus-T, and Dragapult for example, Think of it as meat terms, Fat would be in the more well term meanwhile BO is on the raw term, and of course, Balance is medium.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=0
A:woop::woop:=7
B:woop:=5
C:pikuh:=0


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BO(Bulky Offense)(4th place)

Bulky Offense teams are really similar to that of Balance teams, in fact, too similar. The main difference however, is that they aim more towards the offensive side. Basically, BO is around 60% Offense, and 40% Defense. Most of the pokemon in these teams include 2-3 pivots, between offensive and defensive. The goal is to switch around and position yourself in a way that you can gain advantage from the scenario. However, there not just pure Voltturn as one would think, as they usually bring with them a Sweeper to clean up late game once the moment is right. And similarly as Balance teams, it is just as customizable and thus adaptable as well. However, the majority of the players that voted consider Bulky Offense the better of the three playstyles.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=1
A:woop::woop:=8
B:woop:=4
C:pikuh:=0


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Rain(3rd place)

Rain teams is one of the 4 weather teams in pokemon(well 5 if u count Hail not being similar to Snow). So the game is simple, bring a Drizzle setter(A.k.a Pelipper) and abuse it as much as possible. With Swift Swimmers like Mega Swampert, Barraskweda, Floatzel and Kingdra blitzing everything under the Rain. Other abusers include Manaphy, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Zapdos, Tornadus-Therian, Walking Wake and the rare Greninja. However, Rain isn't only an offense machine, as Fertothorn is an excellent pokemon in Rain thanks to its bulk and utility, and enjoys Rain nuttering its quadruple Fire weakness. Gholdengo could also be used in Rain, similar to Ferrothorn it enjoy Fire being weakened for it while providing some power of its own, and of course, Good As Gold is always good to have. Meanwhile Zapdos and Tornadus offer some defensive utility by having a Ground immune, and Mega Swampert brings an electric immunity, which is excellent for Rain to have. However, the Real deal for Rain teams is the addition of Terastalization, which they abuse to astonishing levels with Tera Water. This makes offensive Rain abusers like Barraskewda and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike almost impossible to switch into safely, as not even Toxapex wants to take a hit seeing its 2hkoed by a Choice Band Floatzel with Tera Water. Some of the players that voted said that Rain was even S tier worthy, but the majority voted for it to be A tier. Even still, it's not a playstyle to take lightly in the slightest.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=3
A:woop::woop:=9
B:woop:=0
C:pikuh:=0

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Sun(2nd place)

Sun is another weather based team, and according to the votes, it is the best of the bunch. In fact, this is the first time Sun is actually considered better than Rain, which is no mean feat. Sun teams abuse the ability Drought threw Torkoal and or Mega Charizard Y. Chrollophyllers like Venusaur and the more niche Scovillain are excellent pokemon for sweeping, wallbreaking and/or cleaning up, as well as the new Paradox mons like Great Tusk, Walking Wake, and the rare Slither Wing. Walking Wake in particular boosted the viability on Sun teams almost on its own, as its typing lets it handle the Rain matchup really well, and also has a signature Water type move that gets boosted in Sun instead of nuttered. Other abusers include Victini and Blaziken, as the extra fire power is tremendous, especially with Tera Fire for them to abuse. Sun is definetly one the most powerful playstyles in National Dex OU, as some even believe that Walking Wake is too strong under Sun and should thus be banned. Many players considered it S worthy, however it was a half n half between it and A, so it barely missed the mark.

Total Votes:
S:woop::woop::woop:=6
A:woop::woop:=6
B:woop:=0
C:pikuh:=0

S Tier
:woop::woop::woop:
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Screens HO(1st place)

Screens HO is perhaps the epedemy of hyper offense play. Screens HO revolves around the Dual Screens, Reflect and Light Screen, to half all physical and special attacks aimed at them while active respectively. This allows already dangerous mons like Volcarona and Mega Gyarados to reliably setup and potentially sweep from there. Even if 1 of there attempts falls short, its going to leave a hole for an ally to clean up late game. The premier seters for this are Tapu Koko and Grimmsnarl, Grimm with its Prankster Screens, Taunts and Parting Shots, and Koko with Electric Terrain enabling even more threads such as Iron Valiant. Another addition Screens HO gained this gen was Cyclizar, with great speed, a huge utility movepool, and of course, Shed Tail. With how destructive this playstyle tends to be, a single Shed Tail can often be described as a dead pokemon on the opponent's team, or at the very least, a massive hole, especially under Dual Screens. Orthworm is another Shed Tail passer, but it isn't nearly as good, however, it still has some unique traits like being able to set hazards and being slow allows it to slowpass Shed Tail, which can flip the tables. There is also Glimmora, who became an excellent suicide lead thanks to Toxic Debris adding an additional layer of hazard upon getting hit by a contact move. Even without it in the picture, Landorus-T is also a great suicide lead with its amazing attack and Explosion. Some excellent sweepers include Iron Valiant, Iron Moth, Volcarona, Hawlucha, Serperior, Annihilape, Kingambit, Dragapult, Dragonite, Baxcalibur, Serperior, Mega Gyarados and many more. In fact recently, people have been experimenting with a Mew set called "Demon Mew" which sets Cosmic Power to boost its defenses alongside Dual Screens to become basically unkillable, and then sweep from there with Stored Power. The power of this playstyle is such that many want it to be hit in some way, mainly banning either Cyclizar or Shed Tail as a whole, Annihilape, Dragapult and Kingambit. So similar to how Stall was unsuprisingly the worse playstyle, Screens HO is to no suprise the Best playstyle in this gen of National Dex OU.

Total Votes:
S :woop: :woop: :woop: =9
A:woop::woop:=3
B:woop:=0
C:pikuh:=0

So there you have it, the National Dex OU "Archetype" tier list

S
:woop: :woop: :woop:
Screens HO
A
:woop::woop:
SunRainBOFatBalance
B
:woop:
Webs HOSand BalanceSnow HO
C
:pikuh:
Sand OffenseTrick RoomStall

Huge Credits to those who participated on this list:
about15guys, Oculars, Evilo42 , hidin, TheRainQueen , georgebowserjr , Dead by Daylight , Negative_emotions916 , Chino_ , Illouri , MurderousMantyke , Sputnik, diseased rodent , hi.naming is hard , RunicPower413 , Typhlosion4 and gamer but swag.
Thank you to all of you for helping me out on this project, I really hope this was for the better of this metagame. I hope you all like it, and who knows, I may try to keep doing more of these articles in the future.
 

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In the Ban announcement thread the council asked for thoughts, mine is there's a huge fish which wasn't fried yet, and I wonder why. There's no need to monitor how it will evolve when the writing on the wall is clear and the wall itself is on fire. The Tera thread is full discontent about this stupid mechanic, we're getting more and more stupid ways to abuse this mechanic, shitmons like Hoopa-U and Floatzel become dangerous threats who can clean games all because they got adap boosts, all those set-up mons who can abuse Tera to match-up fish like Tera Poison Mew and Cresselia and don't forget all the already great/good mons who can abuse tera to either hit even harder or dance around match-ups and win games like Pult, Gambit, Valiant, Volca, Garga, Tran, etc. You have a thread were there's a big response asking to do something, you have a pool were you asked and people answered they want something done about it, what else is there to monitor? Hell in both Rain and HO queries TERA WAS PICKED AS THE BIGGEST ISSUE, the former Tera Water and the later Tera SetUp Sweepers, for fuck sake, when compared to Walking Wake Tera got an even higher score with a 7.09 and Wake if my math ain't wrong, when put in a 10 scale would get like 6.92. Let's get a suspect for it, we had almost half a year to play with it and in the first suspect it almost got the boot, no need to wait for home and possible even more broken Tera abusers getting the boot when they would be fine otherwise.

TL/DR: Tera is broken, mostly of the Tera thread agree, the survey picked out 6 common and great abusers of it and two were banned and said survey when asked about two "problematic" archetypes both the majority of responses were Tera and Tera itself got a bigger score compared to others. Let's ban it and call it a day before Home/DLC's open the door for even more dumb ways to abuse this mechanic.
 
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TL/DR: Tera is broken, mostly of the Tera thread agree, the survey picked out 6 common and great abusers of it and two were banned and said survey when asked about two "problematic" archetypes both the majority of responses were Tera and Tera itself got a bigger score compared to others. Let's ban it and call it a day before Home/DLC's open the door for even more dumb ways to abuse this mechanic.
there was already a tera sus not too long ago and unfortunately you can't just undo susses so it'll probably be a while till it's resussed. not much the council can do unfort
 

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