National Dex Anything Goes Metagame Discussion

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Ropalme1914

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Heya, speaking as leader here. The main reason this isn't being done is down to programming constraints, the team is already working on fixing some of Gen 9's bugs as is and implementing Dynamax / Tera interactions for a single format isn't really a priority, nor something anyone is planning to do on the team.
Does that mean it won't be worked on at all or just at the start? Implementing Dyna is a HUGE mechanic that completely changes the metagame, and doing it too late can throw away a ton of metagame development, but completely disregarding Dynamax would go against the point of why the tier even exists in the first place. I totally get the programming issues and imagined it would be the main reason why, but if there's no plans for it (even lower priority ones), I feel like it becomes a bit questionable what even the format is trying to do
 
So.
Ability Patches now allow for a Pokémon with its hidden ability to go back to having its regular ability (and from there, an ability capsule can be used to make their ability become the second one.)

This means that a Pokémon from generation 1 (or 2) can now have transfer-only moves while also having their non-hidden abilities.
As a result of that, this utter monstrosity is legal.

Machamp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fissure
- Cross Chop
- Poison Jab
- Throat Chop

Yes, THIS is legal now. At least, it should be. Can someone fix the validator for gen 9 natdex?

Unless of course, we make it so that Pokémon who aren't in SV yet can't have any special ingame mechanics from SV applied to them (e.g. new TMs, the Tera Type Changer, and new-style Ability Patches), however this would make it so that Pokémon that aren't in SV are limited to only having a Tera Type of one of their two base form's types (or a type that a pre-evolution has.)
 
I want to give feedback on the metagame, but I feel obligated to weigh in on the whole dynamax controversy in something that isn't just a one-liner.

  1. Check if the user is necrozma that can ultra burst --> Ultra Burst
  2. Check if the user is holding a Z-Crystal --> Z-move
  3. Break if the user is holding a z-crystal but the mechanic has already been used.
  4. Check if the user can mega evolve ---> Mega Evolution
  5. Break if the user has primal reverted, mega evolved, or would have been able to mega evolve.
  6. Check if the user has the automatic tera type set --> Dynamax enabled
  7. Check if Teramax has not already been used --> Terastal enabled
  8. Check if the user is not currently Terastalled and that Dynamax has not been used --> Dynamax Enabled.
Of these, all but 6 and 8 are already implemented (5 is currently bugged for primals and needs fixing).
A more elaborate solution (discussed later) is to change 6 to use a dedicated flag and remove 8, but that requires more work and increases arbitrary
This is pretty similar to Icemaster's comment on the matter, and I agree fully with both of his solutions, even though my solution is closer to the first solution in the interest in being easier to code.

The way I see it, dynamax should be implemented into NDAG, and preferably as soon as possible. The reasons are threefold.
1. Competitiveness
To a large degree I think it's rather silly that it's coming down to this mechanic of all things, but it ironically would restore some sort of balance to the tier, especially when bans definitely aren't going to happen.

Currently, scarfers are basically ruling the tier. Utilizing a Choice Scarf basically corresponds to gaining maximum offensive benefit from Terastal. You gain the ability to screw over not only over opposing scarf users (notably ditto), but also any sort of offensive check that only works once (basically all conventional Calyrex-Shadow checks).

Scarfers are so common, in fact, that it seems that virtually every game will come down to a Calyrex Shadow speed tie or terastal predict of such. This is unfun and stifles creativity in the metagame.


Why dynamax would actually help:
  • It gives actual defensive counterplay to boosted Calyrex-Shadow. (yveltal/darkceus can actually win now lol)
  • It weakens the ability of random Choice Scarf mons to literally run away with the game.
  • It increases the value of setup mons that don't get boosts via kills by letting them not instantly lose to the omnipresent scarf Calyrex Shadow.
  • It adds additional meme potential to the metagame (think protosynthesis setting their own sun or defensive dynamax disrupting those same mechanics by changing terrain/weather). This would increase metagame diversity.
  • The centralizing ability for dynamax to offensively muscle through teams is hugely diminished due to the presence of certain terastal pokemon in the metagame that are easily able to stop any attack.
With these implemented, we might actually see some sort of passible impression at a metagame.
2. It makes sense by existing precedent.
As I see it, the order of priority goes as so:
  1. Item-Based actions --- Z-Moves --- established by Mega Rayquaza
  2. Item-Based transformations --- Mega Evolution / Primal Reversion
  3. Arbitrary mechanics --- Dynamax ~ Terastal
Z-Moves and Mega Evolution actually coexisted, so we know their order of priority.
In the last generation, we decided that item-based mechanics must have a higher priority than non-item based mechanics, which put Dynamax at priority 3.

In contrast, the new mechanic has no real interaction with Dynamax and has identical situational cost, so logically they are around the same level. However, Terastal requires a bit more thought than Dynamax, as you have to pick a type. So how is this resolved?
Let players choose the priority.
Check for the absence of a set type.
The automatic type setting for Terastal is functionally useless already; it would be just as well that it didn't exist at all... Which can be done, rather straightforwardly I believe.

3. The Programming Constraint Argument is Probably Bullshit.
Look, I get it, programming these mechanics in for a singular metagame is annoying. I also can't read minds, and I've been mostly absent from the community for at least half a year. But I have looked at how generational differences are implemented, both by looking at the actual code and because I played a little too much old generation custom games using future gimmicks.

Firstly, the mechanics are already implemented, they just need a trigger. We are not implementing a brand new mechanic. It boggles my mind to think that it is unreasonable to add what must be a few extra if statements to implement this mechanic.
  • In the very worst case scenario, Dynamax has been omitted from the generation's code entirely. Oh no! But even here, the mechanic still exists in gen 7, and would only involve copy paste, barring a more elegant solution.
  • In any other case, Dynamax is directly present and literally can be implemented with several well-placed if statements checking for the absence of a Teramax type flag or perhaps the usage of Terastal by a different Pokemon.

There being no one to code it is nonsense, as Showdown! is open source and accepts outside contributions. If we settle on a plan, I can guarantee that there will be people to implement it available. Hell, I'll even do it if no one comes forward.

I believe the prior two suggestions made by Icemaster are reasonable in both logic and programming complexity, and we should go with one or both and be done with this problem.

The best solution, in my opinion, would be adding a max flag would be a good way of implementation that would be resistant to future generation shenanigans. You can even call it a "gimmick" flag if you so please, to select the arbitrary gimmick that is being made use of.
But I understand, however, that this adds complexity to implementation, so a band-aid solution could be turning it on if and only if tera-type is set to automatic (see 6 at the start of my post). A possible extension of that would be letting it be on if tera has already been used as well (see 8 at the start of my post).

I do hope they go back at some point to requiring held items for the gimmick, as it would make things a lot less arbitrary, but cutting mechanics from this format sets a really bad precedent.

Edit: Fixed Teramax -> Terastal, removed a fragment.
 
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Now for actual metagame feedback.

It seems to me that choice scarf is basically the meta right now.

  • :koraidon: is a really scary scarfer, being able to revenge kill things like boosted :rayquaza-mega::necrozma-ultra:, :zacian-crowned:, non-scarf :calyrex-shadow:, and other :koraidon::miraidon:. Its ability and moveset gives it surprising strength, and access to U-turn means that pivoting is basically back in style. I've been running Close Combat / Flare Blitz / Outrage / U-Turn, and it consistently picks up 1-2 kills each game.
    • If you tera fire, Flare Blitz gains huge stopping power and you can no longer get burned, though it does add a stealth rock weakness so it should only be done if it would pick up a notable kill or stealth rock is not on the field.
    • I think Collision Course is notably worse than Close Combat on choice sets, since Fighting has a hard time finding stuff to hit se and :koraidon: needs all the power it can get.
  • All the :calyrex-shadow: running around are scarf, and for good reason. With scarf :koraidon: running around and :arceus: formes getting dragon dance (not to mention dragon dance :Rayquaza-Mega:), choice scarf is basically required to get consistent sweeping results. The scary thing about :calyrex-shadow: in the metagame right now is that it easily beats :marshadow: and has a really good matchup against :arceus-dark::yveltal::ditto: by teraing normal or dark, which means that the best revenge kill option is using your own calyrex-shadow and praying to win the speed tie and terastal mindgame. You also outspeed geomancy :xerneas: allowing you to revenge kill it. Trick is probably a good option right now to cripple opposing :shedinja: that tera ground.
  • :cyclizar:'s ability to pass subs around and rapid spin around is surprisingly good considering its statline, and it can also stop :calyrex-shadow: thanks to the normal typing. This mon is underrated as a pivot and I hope it gets more attention in the future.
:miraidon: seems to me to be a dangerous scarf user, but it is not nearly on the same level as the above ones thanks to having significantly less spammable moves. I've been running specs on it, with which it achieves completely ludicrous calculations against virtually every mon in the tier (especially if you're willing to spend fire/electric/dragon terastal on it to boost its power further), though it falls barely short of OHKOing arc formes with specs draco meteor (or tera fire overheat) if you don't do the risky tera dragon.
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 364-429 (81.9 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 364-429 (95.5 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Dragon Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 486-572 (109.4 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Btw, Electro Drift has the same calcs as Draco Meteor thanks to Electric Terrain!
It also OHKOes :Ho-Oh: with Electro Drift without Choice Specs:
  • 252 SpA Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh in Electric Terrain: 499-593 (120.2 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And this calc exists:
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia in Electric Terrain: 390-460 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Just as with :koraidon:, the tera fire option is incredibly stupid as well, notably letting it 1v1 :Zacian-Crowned: by OHKOing with even neutral specs Overheat. You resist Play Rough now, so you easily take a hit from it and OHKO back.
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Fire Miraidon Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian (neutral): 378-446 (116.3 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian: 290-343 (89.2 - 105.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    • If you tera electric this just deletes.
Add sun support at all (from :koraidon:) and you get really obsene calcs. It just OHKOes shit casually at that point.
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Fire Miraidon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Arceus in Sun: 445-524 (100.2 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Fire Miraidon Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal in Sun: 464-547 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Fire Miraidon Overheat vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 404-477 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Meanwhile, tera fire overheat is so strong that even spdef :Groudon-Primal: cannot switch into it properly, and draco meteor proper deletes straight up
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Tera Fire Miraidon Overheat vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Groudon-Primal in Harsh Sunshine: 283-334 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, KO in two hits. OHKOes on critical hit.
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Hadron Engine Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Groudon-Primal: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The main issue with :miraidon: is how often it's forced to use SpA lowering moves or otherwise risky moves (both its stabs have immunities), which can make it exploitable. Specs alleviates that slightly by making even -2 spa attacks still hit like a truck, but it can still cause lots of issues, especially on bad predicts. It also shares with :koraidon: the same issue of getting casually revenge killed by :Calyrex-Shadow: unless it runs the suboptimal Tera Normal (or possibly dark).

Onto the anti-competitive aspects of the metagame: :shedinja:
Please don't use tera electric :shedinja:, it's really quite bad. Losing to hazards in a metagame where :arceus: gets taunt, and the fastest pokemon in the metagame blocks rapid spin is basically a death sentence. Not only that, but it basically invites loses to the casual :Zygarde-Complete:. HDB is a much better option.

:shedinja: basically forces a mold breaker pokemon on offensive teams --- :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane::Necrozma-Ultra:, notably, but :Lunala::Necrozma-Dawn-Wings::Zekrom::Reshiram::Kyurem-Black::Kyurem-White: may end up seeing play in the future depending on how the metagame shapes up --- and a rocky helmet for balance/stall. This attribute is wasted if you don't go up against :shedinja:, so really this is just a giant matchup fish for both sides. :Zygarde-Complete: handles Tera-Electric :shedinja:, but doesn't handle any of the other popular :shedinja: variants.
 
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The dev team has probably already thought of this already, but dynamax should be one of the options under the tera type dropdown in the teambuilder, once the team has time to implement dyna.
 
Having played more of the meta, I agree with everything Zrp200 said. I think the meta would be much healthier and much richer with Dynamax in it.

And that is to say nothing of its relation to Evasion boosting and passing. I spent a lot of time laddering with Baton Pass before the Dynamax mechanic was introduced, and though Dynamax is a nerf to Evasion boosting specifically, the boost passing playstyle often felt better overall after its introduction because not every team felt the need to run one of Haze/Phaze/Perish Song.

And then, of course, with this thing legal, I think it's clear why Dynamaxing would be a further boon to the meta:

Machamp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fissure
- Cross Chop
- Poison Jab
- Throat Chop
 
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We are not basing anything off of the anime.

In addition lydia's response in the thread earlier pretty much sums up the situation on dynamax and it is out of our control otherwise
So Dynamax is banned because of programming constraints? That's a reasonable excuse, but makes it rather pointless to play Natdex. Natdex isn't Natdex if certain mechanics are unavailable

Also, Please Ensure that Mega Pokemon can't Terastalize. Given that it's a Gen 6 gimmick, it makes sense as to why it won't work alongside Gen 9 mechanic.
 
Shed-MGar
Here's a defensive core I'd like to share.

As you may noticed, shedinja is banned very quickly in NDOU in gen9. Actually, many of those NDAG legends will tremble before if. Tera Ground make it only fear Grass, Water, Ice and status moves. It also immunes to sandstorm, which is the only damaging weather with hail becoming snow. Things like Zacian, PDon (watch out for Solar Beam), MRay (watch out for Surf or Waterfall, which were previously for PDon), two raidons in gen9 without things like Tera Ice, just too many legends can't hurt it by attack. Use Protect to check if you opponent has those threatening moves.

MGar takes advantage of the fact that people tends to click status moves for Shed, which makes them loses to Encore+Perish. This is especially good with Dynamax gone (though maybe just temporarily). MGar also has the chance to remove offensive threats for Shed with Destiny Bond (again thanks to the absence of Dynamax).

I added Eternatus mainly for Kyogre, which may easily take advantages from Shed. TSpikes are also good for a defensive core.

Left for teammates to handle:
Palafin. I haven't met many so I don't know if it's good in NDAG. And maybe just give Etern 329 speed and this is solved. Similar for WaterUrshifu.
Offensive Nec (both the lion and the dragon). Mold Breaker is really scary. Similar for Zekrom and our newly strengthened KyuremB.
Chien-Pao. Also don't know if it's good in this meta, but do beat this core.
Iron Bundle (future Delibird). Seems not good even in OU, but Water+Ice is really hard to deal with for us.
Calyx-S. Yeah this horse is always just UNSTOPPABLE. A Trick to Shed just destroy this core. Sub+Leech Seed is also a big threat. And there may be weird things like Giga Drain...


Also why PDon can Tera? In gen8 it canNOT Dynamax so I think it should not Tera now. Just now someone kill my Shed with tera Ice XD. Maybe this is some programming issue?
 
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Shed-MGar
Here's a defensive core I'd like to share.

As you may noticed, shedinja is banned very quickly in NDOU in gen9. Actually, many of those NDAG legends will tremble before if. Tera Ground make it only fear Grass, Water, Ice and status moves. It also immunes to sandstorm, which is the only damaging weather with hail becoming snow. Things like Zacian, PDon (watch out for Solar Beam), MRay (watch out for Surf or Waterfall, which were previously for PDon), two raidons in gen9 without things like Tera Ice, just too many legends can't hurt it by attack. Use Protect to check if you opponent has those threatening moves.

MGar takes advantage of the fact that people tends to click status moves for Shed, which makes them loses to Encore+Perish. This is especially good with Dynamax gone (though maybe just temporarily). MGar also has the chance to remove offensive threats for Shed with Destiny Bond (again thanks to the absence of Dynamax).

I added Eternatus mainly for Kyogre, which may easily take advantages from Shed. TSpikes are also good for a defensive core.

Left for teammates to handle:
Palafin. I haven't met many so I don't know if it's good in NDAG. And maybe just give Etern 329 speed and this is solved. Similar for WaterUrshifu.
Offensive Nec (both the lion and the dragon). Mold Breaker is really scary. Similar for Zekrom and our newly strengthened KyuremB.
Chien-Pao. Also don't know if it's good in this meta, but do beat this core.
Iron Bundle (future Delibird). Seems not good even in OU, but Water+Ice is really hard to deal with for us.
Calyx-S. Yeah this horse is always just UNSTOPPABLE. A Trick to Shed just destroy this core. Sub+Leech Seed is also a big threat. And there may be weird things like Giga Drain...


Also why PDon can Tera? In gen8 it canNOT Dynamax so I think it should not Tera now. Just now someone kill my Shed with tera Ice XD. Maybe this is some programming issue?

PDon can tera because Natdex AG is a completely arbitrary tier with no logical or consistent rules. It's just less hacked than Pure Hackmons, and slightly more competitive
 
PDon can tera because Natdex AG is a completely arbitrary tier with no logical or consistent rules. It's just less hacked than Pure Hackmons, and slightly more competitive
Don't agree. In gen8 mega and z users can't dynamax, together with the two primes. So there's no reason primes can tera while mega cannot
 
I think I got tera and dynamax working together. The way I have it setup currently is setting a tera type to "None" or some other invalid type will let you dynamax. Mons with valid teras cannot dynamax. Still working out some issues like should primals be allowed to tera?View attachment 468294
Primals should not be able to Tera, that being in there is a bug right now imo.

Under your implementation, is stuff that set a tera type able to dynamax if tera has been used? Such a mechanic would be more in line with how natdex handled rayquaza's ability to dynamax (removing the conflict -- mega evolution -- allowed use of the hidden mechanic)

I assume not given your description, but I'll ask it anyway.
 
Primals should not be able to Tera, that being in there is a bug right now imo.

Under your implementation, is stuff that set a tera type able to dynamax if tera has been used? Such a mechanic would be more in line with how natdex handled rayquaza's ability to dynamax (removing the conflict -- mega evolution -- allowed use of the hidden mechanic)

I assume not given your description, but I'll ask it anyway.
Currently unable to. If it's something everybody agrees should be a thing, then I can try looking into it.

Edit: You can dynamax a pokemon with a tera type if you have already tera'd a different pokemon. Easy enough to turn on/off the implementation.
The reverse might be a little tricky to implement as with the current implementation you can enter a battle without a tera type.
Was also able to disable tera for the primals.
 
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Having issues with git/github, so just in case, I'm posting the patches here.
Current implementation, bugs notwithstanding, is the following
  • You can select 'None' as a tera type in the teambuilder when in a natdex format.
  • In battle
    1. You cannot tera/dynamax if you have the option to mega, z-move, ultra-burst.
    2. If you have not already terastallized, a mon with a valid tera will have the option to tera, not dynamax
    3. If you already terastallized, a mon with a valid tera will have the option to dynamax
    4. If a mon does not have a tera type, it will have the option to dynamax
    5. If you have already used dynamax, a mon with an invalid tera type will not have the option to tera.
    6. Primals cannot terastallize

#5 can be looked at in the future. Tried to make the code changes as least intrusive as possible. I didn't want to mess more with tera as it looks like it's still being worked on and not too confident in making bigger changes.
 

Attachments

Actually have a version where you can do all of them assuming there is a priority selection list in team builder. (No longer need to select 'None' as a tera type)
For example, if you have a rayquaza with dragon ascent and a flying z-crystal with priority (Tera -> Dynamax -> Z-move -> Mega), then the following occurs.
  1. If you have not used any of the gimmicks, you will have the option to tera.
  2. If you already tera, you will have the option to dynamax.
  3. If you already tera and dynamax, you will have the option to use a z-move.
  4. If you already tera, dynamax, and used a z-move, you will have the option to mega.
But I have to ask, is this what people want? Or would it be preferable that you select one gimmick each mon will use in the teambuilder and restrict it that way? I think that the above interaction with z-move and mega is not technically possible. (Rayquaza that holds a z-crystal cannot mega-evolve even if a different mon already used a z-move.)

The code has more significant changes, so still needs more testing. Haven't started on the teambuilder section, yet.
 
Actually have a version where you can do all of them assuming there is a priority selection list in team builder. (No longer need to select 'None' as a tera type)
For example, if you have a rayquaza with dragon ascent and a flying z-crystal with priority (Tera -> Dynamax -> Z-move -> Mega), then the following occurs.
  1. If you have not used any of the gimmicks, you will have the option to tera.
  2. If you already tera, you will have the option to dynamax.
  3. If you already tera and dynamax, you will have the option to use a z-move.
  4. If you already tera, dynamax, and used a z-move, you will have the option to mega.
But I have to ask, is this what people want? Or would it be preferable that you select one gimmick each mon will use in the teambuilder and restrict it that way? I think that the above interaction with z-move and mega is not technically possible. (Rayquaza that holds a z-crystal cannot mega-evolve even if a different mon already used a z-move.)

The code has more significant changes, so still needs more testing. Haven't started on the teambuilder section, yet.
I would rather mega/z-move out-prioritize dynamax and tera; having the mega stone/z-crystal is a pretty strong indicator that they want to use that mechanic (as opposed to the mechanics that are always available). Otherwise you're just disabling z-moves (and ultra burst/primals).

So Z-Move > Mega > Tera <=> Dyna, where Tera > Dyna unless an invalid tera type is chosen.

Also, are you saying that this would be on the same mon? I can't really tell, but I assumed not, given the precedent that z-moves currently override dynamax/tera and after z-move usage the option still isn't available.

An implementation of this is always going to be arbitrary, but the goal is to reduce the amount of clashes between mechanics as much as possible. If you're incentivized to use one mechanic in order to use another, that's a pretty strong example of mechanic interaction.
 
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