AG National Dex Anything Goes Metagame Discussion

[Will]

(gorgeous art by sleepyzen)​

Welcome to Scarlet and Violet National Dex Anything Goes! This thread will be used for all things related to the new metagame - theorymonning, metagame observations, and set sharing are all encouraged! Since we're entering a new generation with some pretty unprecedented differences, I'll clarify exactly how Scarlet and Violet National Dex Anything Goes is going to work:

• Building On Gen 8 NDAG: The release of Scarlet and Violet will inherit the pre-existing inclusive Sword/Shield National Dex Anything Goes's mechanics, movepools, and Pokémon. Nothing will be cut — things will only be added. You may find an overview of SS NDAG battle mechanics here.
• New Moves On Old Pokémon: Old Pokémon have been granted new moves with the release of Scarlet and Violet. We hope to have the full list soon.
• Z-Moves, Mega Evolving, and Terastallizing: No Pokémon may do more than one of these mechanics and each mechanic may only be used once on each team. For example, a Pokémon that has Mega Evolved may not used a Z-Move, or Terastallize. Z-Crystals should be updated to be compatible with the new Pokémon Scarlet and Violet moves.
• Dynamaxing: Unfortunately, dynamaxing will not be a mechanic available in Scarlet and Violet National Dex Anything Goes due to coding restraints surrounding the arrival of Terastallizing.

Council:

• Will (Tier Leader)
• Kate (Tier Leader)
• lotiasite
• Nevelle
• baconeatinassassin

New Pokemon / Early Metagame Observations:

Terastallize
Terastallizing a Pokémon is the new mechanic that arrived with Pokémon Scarlet Violet. While Terastallized, Pokémon receive a boost to moves that match the Tera Type, and receive an additional boost if the Tera Type and move used both match one of the Pokémon's original types. Pokémon can only have one Tera Type, and dual-type Pokémon become single-type upon Terastallizing, however STAB still takes effect for moves matching the Pokémon's original type(s), regardless of whether the Pokémon's Tera Type matches that move while Terastallized. The move Tera Blast changes type to the Pokémon's innate Tera Type upon Terastallization. [Source: Bulbapedia]

Koraidon and Moraidon
These are the two flagship legendary Pokémon of the new generation, boasting incredibly high offensive stats and unique abilities that bolster their offensive abilities. They seem to be the centralizing forces of this generation and it will be interesting to see how the metagame is shaped around their presence.

Arceus
Arceus was already a centralizing force in National Dex Anything Goes before the release of Pokémon Scarlet Violet. With the release of this new generation however, Arceus now has access to Taunt, Bulk Up, Dragon Dance, and more. In exchange, Recovery got nerfed to 8 pp. Arceus's place in the new metagame will be an exciting one to anticipate.

Shedinja
Shedinja is in an interesting place due to Wonder Guard's amazing synergy with Terastallization. It can now change its typing to shift its weaknesses and even block things such as Sandstorm, Toxic, and Leech Seed damage.

Prankster + Assist + Revival Blessing
In previous iterations of Anything Goes, Prankster + Assist were most commonly utilized on Liepard for priority sleeps with Spore. However, the move Revival Blessing was released in Scarlet Violet, a move with 1 pp that is able to revive a feinted Pokémon and bring it back at half HP. Theoretically, you could infinitely revive your Pokémon with this method. However, it should be noted that in order to pull this off, one would have to build their entire team around the strategy because in order for Assist to guarantee select Revival Blessing, the rest of the moves on the team would have to be ineligible to be selected by Assist. This cheese strategy is weak to things such as priority spam (Extreme Speed from Arceus/Rayquaza-Mega) and Taunt.

That is all for now. I will add more as more information becomes readily available - Discuss away!

 

[Zer01]

You mention Z-moves, Mega Evolving, and Terastallizing. Any word on Dynamaxing?

 

[Icemaster]

Yeah it makes no sense to arbitrarily keep Z Moves, Megas, but remove Dynamaxing. It's not really NatDex if not everything is available. Similarly, it's not really Anything Goes if a decision is made that massively effects the format, Gen 8 NatDex was bad for this but this is much worse.

Can the person who made this decision explain the rationale behind this, given that National Dex AG has no reason to exist, except to be a sandbox that supports using everything?

 

[Zer01]

Yeah it makes no sense to arbitrarily keep Z Moves, Megas, but remove Dynamaxing. It's not really NatDex if not everything is available. Similarly, it's not really Anything Goes if a decision is made that massively effects the format, Gen 8 was bad for this but this is much worse.

Can the person who made this decision explain the rationale behind this, given that National Dex AG has no reason to exist, except to be a sandbox that supports using everything?

They said no mechanics would be removed, so I'd imagine this is just a temporary thing while they figure out how to implement both Terastallizing and Dynamaxing in the same format on the programming side of things.

 

[Chemical_Jackfruit]

Without dynamaxing how would you deal with mega gengar, it seems way too hard to deal with as you can't break encore using dmax.
I'm guessing that it will be implemented soon or else gar just kills anything slower clicking a status move

 

[Zer01]

So with this most recent update to the OP:

Dynamaxing: Dynamaxing will not be a mechanic made available in Scarlet and Violet National Dex Anything Goes due to the arrival of Terastallizing.

It seems that this part of the OP should be edited:

Building On Gen 8 NDAG: The release of Scarlet and Violet will inherit the pre-existing inclusive Sword/Shield National Dex Anything Goes's mechanics, movepools, and Pokémon. Nothing will be cut — things will only be added.

As something is being cut, namely Dynamaxing.

Very disappointing decision, very much against the spirit of National Dex Anything Goes. Perhaps in the future we will have a format -- perhaps called National Dex Really Anything Goes -- that will correct this mistake.

 

[Skooma]

An explanation on the actual thought process behind removing dynamex would clear things up nicely imo. For all we know as of now, the logic behind dyna ban could apply for ban on z moves and megas as well

 

[Icemaster]

So with this most recent update to the OP:



It seems that this part of the OP should be edited:



As something is being cut, namely Dynamaxing.

Very disappointing decision, very much against the spirit of National Dex Anything Goes. Perhaps in the future we will have a format -- perhaps called National Dex Really Anything Goes -- that will correct this mistake.

Completely agree, would like to hear some explanation of what went into this decision. It makes me think that there's not really a long term plan behind Natdex, in "Gen 10 Natdex Anything Goes" would we really be unable to terrestialize/dynamax but still be able to Mega and Z? I'm not sure who decided this so pinging Kaede Kris Will Kate astralydia R8 Solaros & Lunaris for visibility. Apologies if you're the wrong person.

Enabling a Pokemon to either Dynamax or Terrestrialize would be a sufficient and simple enough solution to this, and is what was done with Z moves and Megas (Ie, make them all exclusive). You could do this by having two radiobuttons so that the player can only click one of dynamax or terramax on a specific pokemon on a specific turn. Afterwards, this pokemon would be unable to dynamax or terrestialize depending on which it used, and other pokemon would still be able to use the other one out of the two which wasn't used, provided they aren't holding a Mega Stone or Z crystal. Or, if a pokemon selects a terra type in the builder, you could lock them out of being able to dynamax at all and can only terramax (and if they don't select one then they can only dynamax), making them exclusive.
I prefer the first solution though as it makes fewer assumptions about how the mechanics interact/doesn't limit player freedom, and is more inline with our previous assumptions (You can't dynamax a Mega, you can't dynamax a Z move user etc).

 

[bogglywoods]

No Hisui 'mons in NatDex and NatDex AG already sucks (though it's a decision that I understand the rationale behind) but no G/Dmax just feels arbitrary and I can't see the logic behind it. Having everyone and everything in a sandbox setting loses the appeal when you do not, in fact, have everyone and everything.

 

[R8]

Completely agree, would like to hear some explanation of what went into this decision. It makes me think that there's not really a long term plan behind Natdex, in "Gen 10 Natdex Anything Goes" would we really be unable to terrestialize/dynamax but still be able to Mega and Z? I'm not sure who decided this so pinging Kaede Kris Will Kate astralydia R8 Solaros & Lunaris for visibility. Apologies if you're the wrong person.

Enabling a Pokemon to either Dynamax or Terrestrialize would be a sufficient and simple enough solution to this, and is what was done with Z moves and Megas (Ie, make them all exclusive). You could do this by having two radiobuttons so that the player can only click one of dynamax or terramax on a specific pokemon on a specific turn. Afterwards, this pokemon would be unable to dynamax or terrestialize depending on which it used, and other pokemon would still be able to use the other one out of the two which wasn't used, provided they aren't holding a Mega Stone or Z crystal. Or, if a pokemon selects a terra type in the builder, you could lock them out of being able to dynamax at all and can only terramax (and if they don't select one then they can only dynamax), making them exclusive.
I prefer the first solution though as it makes fewer assumptions about how the mechanics interact/doesn't limit player freedom, and is more inline with our previous assumptions (You can't dynamax a Mega, you can't dynamax a Z move user etc).

(I am not a council member/tl/coder etc, so im not speaking on their behalf - hence what i am saying there has no "official" value)

The current way the tier is defined - which is, if im not mistaken, also the way it was defined since the very beginning of the format - is that every Pokemon, moves, held items and abilities are transferrable in gen9 games. Dynamax is carried by none of these, while Z-Moves and Megas are pretty much effects of held items. The "mechanic of the gen" status has nothing to do with this decision.

In a theoritical SV game that would include every Pokemon/items/moves/abilities that existed in gen8 and gen7 (so what National Dex is trying to emulate, pretty much), dynamax still would not exist.

 

[bogglywoods]

Removing content because it wouldn't exist in a tier that defines itself on being impossible to exist in the first place still feels silly and arbitrary and is ultimately disappointing, but I doubt it's a different answer than what we'd get from a tier leader. Oh well.

 

[Icemaster]

(I am not a council member/tl/coder etc, so im not speaking on their behalf - hence what i am saying there has no "official" value)

The current way the tier is defined - which is, if im not mistaken, also the way it was defined since the very beginning of the format - is that every Pokemon, moves, held items abilities are transferrable in gen9 games. Dynamax is carried by none of these, while Z-Moves and Megas are pretty much effects of held items. The "mechanic of the gen" status has nothing to do with this decision.

In a theoritical SV game that would include every Pokemon/items/moves/abilities that existed in gen8 and gen7 (so what National Dex is trying to emulate, pretty much), dynamax still would not exist.

Thanks for responding.
I don't really agree with basing NatDex on this logic, but even if we did, it doesn't explain why Mega Rayquaza worked the way it does.
It doesn't require an item to mega evolve except it's Key Item (the meteorite), so there's no way it would mega evolve if it was solely based on items and not porting the mechanic over. Similarly in Gen 8 AG, Rayquaza can't mega evolve - so the logic that it is the item that allows Mega Evolution / etc on it's own is not correct (the mechanic needs to be ported over too). If we accept that we can port Key Items over to let Mega Rayquaza mega evolve, which is what is currently the case, and was the case in Gen 8, then we have to accept that we can port the Dynamax Band too and allow Dynamax.

 

[Zer01]

The current way the tier is defined - which is, if im not mistaken, also the way it was defined since the very beginning of the format - is that every Pokemon, moves, held items and abilities are transferrable in gen9 games. Dynamax is carried by none of these, while Z-Moves and Megas are pretty much effects of held items. The "mechanic of the gen" status has nothing to do with this decision.

Yeah, but in gen 8, the mechanics for Mega Evolving weren't implemented, and yet you could Mega Evolve in Gen 8 Nat Dex Anything Goes. I don't see why this should be different.

 

[bogglywoods]

If you really wanna get down to the nitty gritty, every single gimmick is tied to a key item so they're all future proofed and should be available based on the logic that lets us have Mega Rayquaza.

 

[R8]

(again: I am not a council member/tl/coder etc, so im not speaking on their behalf - hence what i am saying there has no "official" value)

Removing content because it wouldn't exist in a tier that defines itself on being impossible to exist in the first place still feels silly and arbitrary and is ultimately disappointing, but I doubt it's a different answer than what we'd get from a tier leader. Oh well.

You have to draw the line at some point. Natdex exists because full-dex transferability does not exist anymore. Can't argue with this being arbitrary, but i am not sure how you would define national dex in a way that would include Dynamax while having a simple and consistent way to define the tier, since transferability is not enough anymore.
On an other note , coding how Dynamax might interact with Tera, with gen9 mechanics, and how those two gimmicks will interact with whatever is in gen10 also is, from my understanding of the topic (again, i am not a coder), something potentially exceedingly difficult to do. I doubt we want to handle next generations with a definition of NatDex that would include dynamax, and thus every non-Pokemon/ability/item/moves gimmicks.

Thanks for responding.
I don't really agree with basing NatDex on this logic, but even if we did, it doesn't explain why Mega Rayquaza worked the way it does.
It doesn't require an item to mega evolve except it's Key Item (the meteorite), so there's no way it would mega evolve if it was solely based on items and not porting the mechanic over. Similarly in Gen 8 AG, Rayquaza can't mega evolve - so the logic that it is the item that allows Mega Evolution / etc on it's own is not correct (the mechanic needs to be ported over too). If we accept that we can port Key Items over to let Mega Rayquaza mega evolve, which is what is currently the case, and was the case in Gen 8, then we have to accept that we can port the Dynamax Band too and allow Dynamax.

Mega Ray was brought up before - and this is correct. I imagine the reasoning just was pretty much that since every Mega-Evolution works, then Mega-Rayquaza should not be an exception. However, what you said here could also be an argument to nuke Mega-Rayquaza itself, as its existence in the tier is not coherent with the way NatDex is defined. Then again, i cant speak for the council/tl/coders/etc on this topic.

Yeah, but in gen 8, the mechanics for Mega Evolving weren't implemented, and yet you could Mega Evolve in Gen 8 Nat Dex Anything Goes. I don't see why this should be different.

Every cut item/move/etc in NatDex works the way they worked the last gen they existed. So gen9nationaldex megastones work the exact same ways they did in gen7. This is why, for example, galar-slowbro can mega-evolve, as megastones work with the dex number in gen7.

 

[Zer01]

Every cut item/move/etc in NatDex works the way they worked the last gen they existed. So gen9nationaldex megastones work the exact same ways they did in gen7. This is why, for example, galar-slowbro can mega-evolve, as megastones work with the dex number in gen7.

If that's the rationale, then I don't see why pokemon would not be able to Dynamax, as they could in gen 8. You're saying it's because they're linked to an item, but the mechanic still needs to be ported into the current generation for it to work, as Mega Evolving didn't work in Gen 8 even if you had a Mega Stone. If we're willing to port over item-dependent mechanics, why would we not also port over item-independent mechanics like Dynamax? Seems completely arbitrary.

 

[R8]

If that's the rationale, then I don't see why pokemon would not be able to Dynamax, as they could in gen 8. You're saying it's because they're linked to an item, but the mechanic still needs to be ported into the current generation for it to work. If we're willing to port over item-dependent mechanics, why would we not also port over item-independent mechanics like Dynamax? Seems completely arbitrary.

Dynamax is not linked to a held item. What you are referring to are key items - which already were not "transferable", as each gen has its own specific key items

 

[Zer01]

Dynamax is not linked to a held item. What you are referring to are key items - which already were not "transferable", as each gen has its own specific key items

I know, that's my point. Mega Evolving needs both an item and an accompanying mechanic (as evidenced by the fact that you can't do it in gen 8 even if you illegitimately obtain the item), whereas Dynamaxing only requires a mechanic, not an item. You need more rationale to include Mega Evolving than to include Dynamaxing.

 

[bogglywoods]

I know, that's my point. Mega Evolving needs both an item and an accompanying mechanic (as evidenced by the fact that you can't do it in gen 8 even if you illegitimately obtain the item), whereas Dynamaxing only requires a mechanic, not an item. You need more rationale to include Mega Evolving than to include Dynamaxing.

Also like I mentioned earlier, all of the mechanics are also tied to a key item. You can't mega evolve without the Key Stone, do Z-moves without the Z-Ring, D/Gmax without the Dynamax Band, or use Terastalizing without the Tera Orb, which are all key items. The same rationale that lets us have megas in general (not just Rayquaza) and Z-moves has no reason to exclude Dynamax because the mechanics are all inherently tied to a key item.

 

[Chemical_Jackfruit]

I feel like dyna probably isn't in natdex due to the tera and dyna buttons overlapping and the dev is focusing more on other stuff like revival blessing

 

[bogglywoods]

I feel like dyna probably isn't in natdex due to the tera and dyna buttons overlapping and the dev is focusing more on other stuff like revival blessing

I think that's completely fine and makes perfect sense, but I'm pretty sure most of us are arguing that it not being added in at all is silly and hardly even makes sense in the context of the tier

 

[R8]

(again: I am not a council member/tl/coder etc, so im not speaking on their behalf - hence what i am saying there has no "official" value)

I know, that's my point. Mega Evolving needs both an item and an accompanying mechanic (as evidenced by the fact that you can't do it in gen 8 even if you illegitimately obtain the item), whereas Dynamaxing only requires a mechanic, not an item. You need more rationale to include Mega Evolving than to include Dynamaxing.

Also like I mentioned earlier, all of the mechanics are also tied to a key item. You can't mega evolve without the Key Stone, do Z-moves without the Z-Ring, D/Gmax without the Dynamax Band, or use Terastalizing without the Tera Orb, which are all key items. The same rationale that lets us have megas in general (not just Rayquaza) and Z-moves has no reason to exclude Dynamax because the mechanics are all inherently tied to a key item.

This is true, however the way NatDex was defined should not be omitted:
as you might know, things like Pursuit and Hidden Power in fact exist in gen8 - they are just not clickable. What National Dex did so far and does right now is not only allowing transfer from gen7 to gen8, but also made them work like they were working the last generation they were usable. There would be no point having a NatDex metagame where you could bring Hidden Power and Mega Stones, just for them to not have any effects.

The problem with dynamax here is that it is not related to a held item. There isnt anything you can import from gen8 to gen9, give to a pokemon and force it to "work".

 

[R8]

On an other note , coding how Dynamax might interact with Tera, with gen9 mechanics, and how those two gimmicks will interact with whatever is in gen10 also is, from my understanding of the topic (again, i am not a coder), something potentially exceedingly difficult to do. I doubt we want to handle next generations with a definition of NatDex that would include dynamax, and thus every non-Pokemon/ability/item/moves gimmicks.

This also should not be forgotten about, as we also are looking for a definition that will be able to handle next gens as well. I really dislike using the following argument because i cant pretend being able to predict what the next pokemon games are going to introduce, but i doubt a definition of national dex including every gimmick they are going to add is a sustainable definition in the long term, on a coding and mechanical point of view.

 

[astralydia]

Completely agree, would like to hear some explanation of what went into this decision. It makes me think that there's not really a long term plan behind Natdex, in "Gen 10 Natdex Anything Goes" would we really be unable to terrestialize/dynamax but still be able to Mega and Z? I'm not sure who decided this so pinging Kaede Kris Will Kate astralydia R8 Solaros & Lunaris for visibility. Apologies if you're the wrong person.

Enabling a Pokemon to either Dynamax or Terrestrialize would be a sufficient and simple enough solution to this, and is what was done with Z moves and Megas (Ie, make them all exclusive). You could do this by having two radiobuttons so that the player can only click one of dynamax or terramax on a specific pokemon on a specific turn. Afterwards, this pokemon would be unable to dynamax or terrestialize depending on which it used, and other pokemon would still be able to use the other one out of the two which wasn't used, provided they aren't holding a Mega Stone or Z crystal. Or, if a pokemon selects a terra type in the builder, you could lock them out of being able to dynamax at all and can only terramax (and if they don't select one then they can only dynamax), making them exclusive.
I prefer the first solution though as it makes fewer assumptions about how the mechanics interact/doesn't limit player freedom, and is more inline with our previous assumptions (You can't dynamax a Mega, you can't dynamax a Z move user etc).

Heya, speaking as leader here. The main reason this isn't being done is down to programming constraints, the team is already working on fixing some of Gen 9's bugs as is and implementing Dynamax / Tera interactions for a single format isn't really a priority, nor something anyone is planning to do on the team.

 

[bogglywoods]

Heya, speaking as leader here. The main reason this isn't being done is down to programming constraints, the team is already working on fixing some of Gen 9's bugs as is and implementing Dynamax / Tera interactions for a single format isn't really a priority, nor something anyone is planning to do on the team.

Ultimately disappointing but completely understandable. I do wonder thought, just for curiosity's sake, what's meant by Dyna/Tera interactions? Maybe there's just aspects about it I don't get but wouldn't it be pretty similar to how Dynamax interacts with something like Protean?