SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

[Pikachu315111]

Mamoswine. I always found it odd that, for some reason, GF decided to take a hairy pig and tried to make it into the pig equivalent of a mammoth. Like, aside from being woolly, what did the Swinub family have any relation to an ancestor of elephants? Like, why not give the mammoth evo to the Phanpy family?

Well, I think I may have found my answer. The first reconstruction drawing of a mammoth was done in the early 1800s by a Russian merchant named Roman Boltunov, who bought its ivory tusks from a Northern Russian reindeer farmer named Ossip Shumachov who just so happened to find the mammoth after it melted out from the ice. Shumachov led Boltunov to where the mammoth was, which by then had been badly damaged by the wild animals (and Shumachov's dogs) who ate most of the meat leaving only a mound of hair and fat. Still, Boltunov took measurements and then made a crude drawing of what he thought it would have looked like in its prime:

It did not look like an elephant

Look familiar?

Note: The drawings were sent to the Russian Imperial Academy of Sciences where a botanist named Mikhail Adams noted it was very inaccurate though still published the picture in a science journal. Adams would later go with a team to retrieve what was left of the mammoth which, at the time, was the most complete mammoth specimen. Named "Adams Mammoth", it still stands on display at the Natural History Museum Vienna.

Here's an article on the story.

 

[Bug Maniac Aydon]

Does the concept of a level exist in the anime? I explicitly remember in the one Pokemon School episode from the first season that Cubone Girl mentions Ash's Pikachu as being L25. Is that just a creative liberty in the dub?

EDIT: The same episode also mentions what levels Pidgey learns what moves iirc

 

[R_N]

Does the concept of a level exist in the anime? I explicitly remember in the one Pokemon School episode from the first season that Cubone Girl mentions Ash's Pikachu as being L25. Is that just a creative liberty in the dub?

EDIT: The same episode also mentions what levels Pidgey learns what moves iirc

Level primarily exists at that one episode. Outside of that it's been extremely rare instances iirc you can count them on one hand.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Does the concept of a level exist in the anime? I explicitly remember in the one Pokemon School episode from the first season that Cubone Girl mentions Ash's Pikachu as being L25. Is that just a creative liberty in the dub?

EDIT: The same episode also mentions what levels Pidgey learns what moves iirc

EP009 "The School of Hard Knocks"

I don't ever remember them mentioning Pikachu's Level, the only specific mention of Levels was for Pidgey's evolution levels. Any other mentioning of Level was I believe generic "Graveler may be weak to Water-type moves but it's at a higher level so was able to overpower Starmie".

but as R_N said, only that episode focuses on Levels, and likely for the sole reason to illustrate that the anime runs on different rules to the games so Levels don't matter. There may be a few times after this episode where, to justify a weak-looking Pokemon being powerful, a character may say something to the effect that its at a "high level", but once again that's generic talk and can easily be taken as just meaning the Pokemon trained really hard.

 

[HiWorld64]

Natural selection/evolution has been a major element in the Pokemon world, being showcased in many different ways like fossil Pokemon, regional varients, convergent evolution Pokémon like Toedscool and Wiglett lines, along with pokedex entries stating more examples such as Toxicroak's pokedex entry stating that it's related to Sesmitoad.

It booms out a victory croak when its prey goes down in defeat. This Pokémon and Seismitoad are related species. From Pokemon Shield.

There seems to exist an exception that throws a curveball at trying to understand how every Pokemon relate to each other taxonomically, as Spontaneous generation possibly might exist in the Pokemon world. Quoting the Wikipedia article on the subject "Spontaneous generation[1] is a superseded scientific theory that held that living creatures could arise from nonliving matter and that such processes were commonplace and regular." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation. There are multiple potential examples of this concept showcased in some pokedex entries.

Potentially Examples of Spontaneous generation in Pokemon

Multiple pokedex entries state the Grimer was created by X-rays from the moon hitting sludge. Such as the entry from Pokemon Moon.

It was born from sludge transformed by exposure to X-rays from the moon. When its internal load of germs decreases, it dies.

However it is also stated in pokedex entries that it relies on germ living in it to survive so it might have been formed from the germs in the sludge being exposed to the X-rays

Trubbish has pokedex entries stating it was created from garbage, possibly in a similar way to however Grimer was created

The combination of garbage bags and industrial waste caused the chemical reaction that created this Pokémon. From Pokemon White.

Vanilite has been stated to be born from an icicle exposed to the sun, but some of the pokedex entries word this fact in a way that this idea is a hypothesis and not confirmed to be true.
The two entries that are worded this way

Theoretically, this Pokémon formed from icicles bathed in energy from the morning sun. Their breath is -58° F. From Pokemon Black 2 and White 2.

Supposedly, this Pokémon was born from an icicle. It spews out freezing air at −58 degrees Fahrenheit to make itself more comfortable. From Pokemon Shield.

One of the entries presenting the idea in a less speculative light

Born of an icicle, this Pokémon uses its frosty breath to make ice crystals, causing snow to fall. From Pokemon Sun

Cryogonal is another Pokemon made of ice possibly created by spontaneous generation.

They are born in snow clouds. They use chains made of ice crystals to capture prey. From Pokemon White

The Pokedex entry that states this information presents it as fact for Cryogonal rather than as a hypothesis like with Vanilite. I don't think though that Crygonal's entry completely confirms that Vanilite is also created by spontaneous generation. There is another entry giving a different origin for Cryogonal, but it isn't presented as a confirmed fact, so I think the first pokedex entry is more likely to be true.

Cryogonal appear during cold seasons. It is said that people and Pokémon who die on snowy mountains are reborn into these Pokémon. From Pokemon Scarlet.

There seem to be multiple Pokémon with bodies composed of minerals that are created underground
Roggenrola

Born deep within the ground, it compares itself with similar species, such as Geodude and Carbink, to settle which has the hardest body. From Pokemon Sun.

Carbink

Born from the high temperatures and pressures deep underground, it defends itself by firing beams from the jewel part of its body.

Nacli

It was born in a layer of rock salt deep under the earth. This species was particularly treasured in the old days, as they would share precious salt. From Pokemon Scarlet.

All of the Pokemon with bodies composed of minerals could be created this way or by other similar processes, but this just speculation.

Minior is another Pokemon with a body composed of minerals, and is also possibly formed by spontaneous generation.

Strong impacts can knock it out of its shell. This Pokémon was born from mutated nanoparticles. From Pokemon Moon

Alcremie also seems to formed from by spontaneous generation.

This Pokémon was born from sweet-smelling particles in the air. Its body is made of cream. Pokemon Sword entry

Charcadet is another possible example of spontaneous generation.

Burnt charcoal came to life and became a Pokémon. Possessing a fiery fighting spirit, Charcadet will battle even tough opponents.

Along with these Pokemon that seem more biological in nature, many ghost type Pokemon are formed in somewhat similar ways, either created by a ghost possessing an object like Honedge or the object itself turns into a pokemon like with Sandygast and Banette. The reason I'm making this connection is that the pokedex entries for the Sinitea line gave me the idea for a theory that explains both of these groups of Pokemon. Something confusing about Pokemon is that ghost types (not counting ghost types like Aloan Marowak, Hisuian Typhlosion and Decidueye that are not spirits) are able to breed and have eggs despite usually being the ghost of something that was once living. I remember getting this pointed out to me in a post from this thread.

The answer to this question seems to be found in the Pokedex entries for the Sinitea line.
Two of Sinitea's pokedex entries state it came from a ghost possessing a teacup, although the first entry from Pokemon Sword state this fact as more of a rumor when compared to the second entry from Pokemon Scarlet (why does this keep happening with Pokedex entries from different games?).

This Pokémon is said to have been born when a lonely spirit possessed a cold, leftover cup of tea. From Pokemon Sword.

The soul of someone who died alone possessed some leftover tea. This Pokémon appears in hotels and houses. From Pokemon Scarlet.

At the same time though, the Pokedex entries for Polteageist states it can multiply by pouring itself into tea.

These Pokémon multiply by creeping into teapots and pouring themselves into leftover tea. From Pokemon Violet.

So the answer to this mystery could be that when these ghost type Pokemon are formed from a ghost or object, they become a living being, thus letting them have offspring just like normal Pokemon. This is similar to the Pokemon that potently came from spontaneous generation, which were originally created by various different processes/reactions but can still reproduce more members of their species. One thing that might be evidence for this is that many ghost types seem to have a physical body made of some substance, rather than just being a spirit.

Examples of ghost types having something similar to a physical body along with some possible exceptions

The Gastly line are made of poisonous gas.

The Misdreavus line might be an exception. My best possible guess for what it's body is made from is that the jewelry and clothing motif in the line could point to them being made from those objects.

The Shuppet line has Banette being a throw away doll or puppet, and Shuppet being a puppet or made from materials used to make doll and puppets.

The Duskull line is made from things like bandages which are seen on Dusclops, the reaper cloth could be part of Dusknoir body, The spectral ball of fire mentioned in the Pokedex entries for Dusclops, which could be the single eye found on each member of the line, and maybe even actually bones considering Duskull having a skull along with bone marking on it's back.

The Drifloon line are balloons

Spiritomb is 108 spirits bound to an Odd Keystone, although I'm not sure if Spiritomb was a Pokemon made from 108 spirits that later was bounded to an Odd Keystone, or if the 108 spirits being bounded to an Odd Keystone was what originally created Spiritomb.

The mask Yamask has and the coffin Cofagrigus is in could be part of their physical body, although I'm not sure then what the rest of the body is made of. Galarian Yamask and Runerigus are a similar deal but with clay instead

The Jellicent line are made of seawater, as stated in their Pokedex entries

Female Jellicent
These Pokémon have body compositions that are mostly identical to seawater. They make their lairs from sunken ships.
Male Jellicent
Most of this Pokémon’s body composition is identical to sea water. It makes sunken ships its lair.
Both of these entries are from Pokemon Sword.

The Litwick line, Litwick is a candle, Lampent is a lamp, and Chandelure is a chandelier.

The Honedge line are possessed swords

The Phantump line, Phantump is a possessed stump, and Trevenant is a tree

The Pumpkaboo line are pumpkins. The Pokemon Shield entries for Gourgeist mentions it being able to pass on it's size to it's descendants, which could be evidence towards this theory.

Small Gourgeist (The Pokedex entries for all other sizes except for average size are similarly written)
A small-sized Pumpkaboo evolves into a small-sized Gourgeist. Its bodily proportions also get passed on to its descendants. From Pokemon Shield.

The Sandygast line are made from sand

Dhelmise is made from seaweed, a steering wheel, and an anchor.

The Sinistea line is made from tea inside of a teacup or teapot

Galarian Corsola, and Cursola are made from what might be it's body from when it was alive, and ectoplasm. Ectoplasm could possibly be a part of the bodies of some other ghost type Pokemon.

The Dragapult line could be another exception, although it might be partially made from the fossil it left behind after originally dying.

The Bramblim line is made from dried grass

The Greavard line could be something like a zombie, especially considering Houndstone looks like a skeleton.

Gimmighoul is a coin that turned into a Pokemon as stated in it's Pokedex entries

Roaming Form
This Pokémon was born from passion that seeped into a coin. It wanders, apparently seeking to return to the treasure chest it once inhabited. From Pokemon Scarlet.

Goldengo body is made from coins

This could explain things like how Bannette is described as coming from a thrown away doll or puppet, while this isn't mentioned for it's prevoltion Shuppet. It could be that the first Banette came from a thrown away doll or puppet, with the first Shuppets later appearing as descendants to this Banette.

A possibility is that these Pokemon created by spontaneous generation is that some of the descendants of these species could diverge from the original species and start new species due to natural selection.

Minior could have been the ancestor of Solrock and Lunatone. Some Minior that fell to earth and survived long enough could have established a population that evolved into Solrock and Lunatone in order to handle the environment of earth better. These three species are all rock Pokemon capable of floating that are themed around different celestial bodies. The Pokedex entries from Solrock and Lunatone mention being rumored to have fallen from outer space, which would be a nice parallel to Minior.

Solrock
Solrock is a new species of Pokémon that is said to have fallen from space. It floats in air and moves silently. In battle, this Pokémon releases intensely bright light. From Pokemon Omega Ruby.

Lunatone
Lunatone was discovered at a location where a meteoroid fell. As a result, some people theorize that this Pokémon came from space. However, no one has been able to prove this theory so far. From Pokemon Omega Ruby.

Solrock and Lunatone also both have Meteorite for their species. Another possibly for how they evolved that takes into account the rumors of it falling from the sky are that they diverged from Minior while still living in the ozone layer and later fell to earth.

I might update this post with more ideas about this theory in the future.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

That reminds me, sometimes I wonder: are regional variants subspecies of the originals, or is each form a separate species that split from their common ancestor relatively recently? Here's a diagram:

 

[QuentinQuonce]

That reminds me, sometimes I wonder: are regional variants subspecies of the originals, or is each form a separate species that split from their common ancestor relatively recently? Here's a diagram:

For almost all of the Alola forms at least, it's more or less directly confirmed that they're subspecies that directly evolved from the original. It's specifically mentioned in the lore or the dex entries for the most of them.

Obviously the Pokedex isn't right about everything and a lot of it is couched in terms of hearsay and speculation ("it is said that..." or "it is commonly thought that...", etc). But although it can notoriously be wildly unrealistic (Ampharos' light being bright enough to see from space, Magcargo being hot enough to ignite the planet's atmosphere, etc) the Pokedex isn't generally known to be outright wrong about the species it describes.

Anyway, some examples of what I'm citing: Sandshrew...

Sandshrew have historically lived in desert areas. But the frequent eruptions of nearby volcanoes drove the Sandshrew to abandon the desert and migrate to snowy mountains, where they took on this form. Sandshrew’s body changed to adapt to the harsh environment of the snowy mountains.

...Vulpix...

It is said that Vulpix came to the Alola region together with humans, but the Fox Pokémon moved to the snowy mountain peaks to avoid the normal habitats of other Pokémon, and thus it ended up taking on this form.

...Meowth...

Meowth is a Pokémon that did not originally live in the Alola region. They were sent to the royal line as an offering from another region [...] it’s said that the Meowth that were offered to the royal family lived a life of luxury and pampering, which led them to have a selfish and prideful attitude. This caused Meowth’s form to change.

...Marowak...

The Marowak in the Alola region take bones and light both ends on fire by rubbing them against their foreheads. Then they spin the bones around! [...] there are many Grass-type Pokémon—Marowak’s natural enemies—in the Alola region. This makes Alola a harsh environment for Cubone and Marowak. As a result, they live in close union with their partners. It’s said that their great care for their partners allowed them to gain something like a sixth sense and resulted in their changed form.

and Grimer...

When the population of the Alola region increased, dealing with their garbage became a serious problem. As a solution, Grimer were imported from other regions. They fed primarily on garbage, so their body composition changed—as did their form.

While not a form change, there's even a mild example of species variation mentioned in Delibird's Sun Pokedex entry:

Although it naturally prefers colder locales, Delibird in Alola seem able to withstand the heat to a certain extent.

The same goes for most of the Galarian Pokemon, like Weezing...

It mixes gases between its two bodies. It's said that [Kantonian Weezing] were seen all over the Galar region back in the day.

Long ago, during a time when droves of factories fouled the air with pollution, Weezing changed into this form for some reason.

...but there are some oddities, like the Galarian bird trio, who I think are deliberately quite mysterious. Zorua and Corsola, of course, are literally the ghosts of the existing forms we know so did come directly from them but for the Hisuian forms it's a bit less clear; for the ones which don't evolve by way of branched evolution, the sole dex entries we're given lead me to think that we're meant to think that most of them are common-ancestor variants rather than subspecies. Ex: Basculin...

Though it differs from other Basculin in several respects, including demeanor—this one is gentle—I have categorized it as a regional form given the vast array of shared qualities.

...and Sneasel...

[Johtonian Sneasel] shares roots with the Sneasel of Hisui, but unlike that species, this one is spiteful in personality. I hypothesize that water and earth can affect Sneasel's mind and body.

Qwilfish's dex entry is ambiguous: "a different form lives elsewhere". For Growlithe and Voltorb there's not really any indication.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

While not a form change, there's even a mild example of species variation mentioned in Delibird's Sun Pokedex entry:

Although it naturally prefers colder locales, Delibird in Alola seem able to withstand the heat to a certain extent.

Alolan Delibird comfirmed. =P

Jokes aside, I was under the impression that Hisuian Voltorb/Electrode were the ancestors of their modern forms.

 

[R_N]

Then there's the birds where even in-universe it's like "We weren't actually sure if these were new Pokemon, but through vauge research, they are" and then refused to elaborate on literally anything.

By & large it's definitely more of a "subspecies" thing more than not, though.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Alolan Delibird comfirmed. =P

Jokes aside, I was under the impression that Hisuian Voltorb/Electrode were the ancestors of their modern forms.

That's kind of my view, although it clashes with a lot of the implications from pre-Gen VIII that Voltorb and Electrode are actually Pokeballs brought to life by some freak occurrence.

Silver dex entry: It was discovered when Poké Balls were introduced. It is said that there is some connection.

Crystal dex entry: During the study of this Pokémon, it was discovered that its components are not found in nature.

Omega Ruby dex entry: Voltorb was first sighted at a company that manufactures Poké Balls. The link between that sighting and the fact that this Pokémon looks very similar to a Poké Ball remains a mystery.

Alpha Sapphire dex entry: Voltorb is extremely sensitive - it explodes at the slightest of shocks. It is rumored that it was first created when a Poké Ball was exposed to a powerful pulse of energy.

Of course, all of those examples are done in the speculative "it is said that..." manner I referenced in my last post, so there's no reason it has to be true. But since it was the most plausible explanation in the absence of any other I'd always taken that as "yeah, it's probably more or less true" because... well, it's what they chose to put into the games and it's what they chose to imply.

It's broadly possible to reconcile that with H-Voltorb being an ancestor of the modern species. Perhaps it was actually a Hisuian Voltorb that was exposed to a massive pulse of energy and changed form. Or it could just be a total myth, but honestly I find "it's a mutated Pokeball come to life" more interesting than pretty much any other backstory it could conceivably have, especially given the intriguing Crystal dex entry.

Idk. Of course, it's worth pointing out that IRL the reason Hisuian Voltorb/Electrode exist is that they almost certainly said something to the effect of "fuck it, Voltorb is getting a regional form whether it makes sense or not" so it's one where I do find myself struggling to suspend disbelief somewhat.

 

[R_N]

That's kind of my view, although it clashes with a lot of the implications from pre-Gen VIII that Voltorb and Electrode are actually Pokeballs brought to life by some freak occurrence.

Silver dex entry: It was discovered when Poké Balls were introduced. It is said that there is some connection.

Crystal dex entry: During the study of this Pokémon, it was discovered that its components are not found in nature.

Omega Ruby dex entry: Voltorb was first sighted at a company that manufactures Poké Balls. The link between that sighting and the fact that this Pokémon looks very similar to a Poké Ball remains a mystery.

Alpha Sapphire dex entry: Voltorb is extremely sensitive - it explodes at the slightest of shocks. It is rumored that it was first created when a Poké Ball was exposed to a powerful pulse of energy.

Of course, all of those examples are done in the speculative "it is said that..." manner I referenced in my last post, so there's no reason it has to be true. But since it was the most plausible explanation in the absence of any other I'd always taken that as "yeah, it's probably more or less true" because... well, it's what they chose to put into the games and it's what they chose to imply.

It's broadly possible to reconcile that with H-Voltorb being an ancestor of the modern species. Perhaps it was actually a Hisuian Voltorb that was exposed to a massive pulse of energy and changed form. Or it could just be a total myth, but honestly I find "it's a mutated Pokeball come to life" more interesting than pretty much any other backstory it could conceivably have, especially given the intriguing Crystal dex entry.

Idk. Of course, it's worth pointing out that IRL the reason Hisuian Voltorb/Electrode exist is that they almost certainly said something to the effect of "fuck it, Voltorb is getting a regional form whether it makes sense or not" so it's one where I do find myself struggling to suspend disbelief somewhat.

Fixing the lore with liberal application of "Actually, the voltorb being referred to in the prior entries is the modern one's hypothetical origins." and "they spontaneously came to be in separate parts of the world under separate circumstances"

Cowards that GameFreak are, Scarlet & Violet reuses dex entries for Voltorb & Electrode and Hisuian Voltorb & Electrode don't get dex entries at all.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

and "they spontaneously came to be in separate parts of the world under separate circumstances"

I mean, it's not as if they've never done that one before...

 

[Nitro Indigo]

It's broadly possible to reconcile that with H-Voltorb being an ancestor of the modern species. Perhaps it was actually a Hisuian Voltorb that was exposed to a massive pulse of energy and changed form. Or it could just be a total myth, but honestly I find "it's a mutated Pokeball come to life" more interesting than pretty much any other backstory it could conceivably have, especially given the intriguing Crystal dex entry.

I meant, Voltorb and Electrode changed with the times as Poké Balls improved.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I meant, Voltorb and Electrode changed with the times as Poké Balls improved.

What, and they changed from being Apricorn balls to being metallic? How? I'm confused.

 

[Karxrida]

Something I just learned after reading a YouTube comment that pertains to the Ash-Greninja situation from earlier.

It's very likely that the form's removal is related to Ash's retirement from the anime. TPCi wants people to move on, so they're removing one of the more overt references to Ash in the games to facilitate that.

 

[R_N]

Something I just learned after reading a YouTube comment that pertains to the Ash-Greninja situation from earlier.

It's very likely that the form's removal is related to Ash's retirement from the anime. TPCi wants people to move on, so they're removing one of the more overt references to Ash in the games to facilitate that.

*looks at all the Cap Pikachu that are in the game complete with dex entries*

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

*looks at all the Cap Pikachu that are in the game complete with dex entries*

To be fair, though, Pikachu is literally the mascot of the series and has historically been synonymous with Ash. It's also not a special form tied to a transformation with Ash or anything, it's just a "special event rendition" of Pikachu (that's still functionally an ordinary Pikachu) that's more or less commemorative of the Pikachu everyone knows and his Trainer, the long-time anime protagonist Ash, while Ash-Greninja is a special in-battle transformation that only Ash in particular could pull off with his Greninja and is literally an entirely different form that is also similar to a Mega.

The Cap Pikachu aren't really different "forms" per se and are still fundamentally ordinary Pikachu just tied to special events. Pikachu also has a bit of privilege there because it's the mascot of the series. They're not really an *overt Ash reference* in the vein of Ash-Greninja and more just commemorative distributions that are meant to celebrate and indirectly shout out each and every season of the anime in general, not specifically overt Ash references in that regard. Something like Pikashunium Z and the corresponding Z-Move 10 Million Volt Thunderbolt would be more of an overt Ash reference in the vein of Ash-Greninja than the Cap Pikachus.

Since they are basically just generalized commemorative distributions tied to general Anipoke history shoutout, they will likely be distributed in a chain of event distributions like usual, one at a time to commemorate each and every season of the anime, with the final one likely being Riko's Sprigatito/Floragato/Meowscarada or whatever to shout out the Gen 9 anime season with Riko as the current protagonist, with the Cap Pikachus being preceding events to commemorate what came before.

Battle Bond being reworked makes sense with the hindsight knowledge that Ash will no longer be the protagonist in the Gen 9 anime because Ash is literally no longer the star of the show and new kids will never get to see him or his special Greninja in action because of it. It would be weird to highlight Ash in such a manner when he's out of the picture now for the current generation's anime season, and the torch has been passed to Riko now.

Any subsequent overt anime references they make for SV and related Gen 9 games will likely be tied to Riko, since she's now the main protagonist of the show and the star of the story that they want to give focus to now. Meaning if she gets any special mons with special treatment for anime-exclusive stuff, she's the one the games will be giving shout outs to, not Ash.

 

[R_N]

To be fair, though, Pikachu is literally the mascot of the series and has historically been synonymous with Ash. It's also not a special form tied to a transformation with Ash or anything, it's just a "special event rendition" of Pikachu (that's still functionally an ordinary Pikachu) that's more or less commemorative of the Pikachu everyone knows and his Trainer, the long-time anime protagonist Ash, while Ash-Greninja is a special in-battle transformation that only Ash in particular could pull off with his Greninja and is literally an entirely different form that is also similar to a Mega.

The Cap Pikachu aren't really different "forms" per se and are still fundamentally ordinary Pikachu just tied to special events. Pikachu also has a bit of privilege there because it's the mascot of the series. They're not really an *overt Ash reference* in the vein of Ash-Greninja and more just commemorative distributions that are meant to celebrate and indirectly shout out each and every season of the anime in general, not specifically overt Ash references in that regard. Something like Pikashunium Z and the corresponding Z-Move 10 Million Volt Thunderbolt would be more of an overt Ash reference in the vein of Ash-Greninja than the Cap Pikachus.

Since they are basically just generalized commemorative distributions tied to general Anipoke history shoutout, they will likely be distributed in a chain of event distributions like usual, one at a time to commemorate each and every season of the anime, with the final one likely being Riko's Sprigatito/Floragato/Meowscarada or whatever to shout out the Gen 9 anime season with Riko as the current protagonist, with the Cap Pikachus being preceding events to commemorate what came before.

Battle Bond being reworked makes sense with the hindsight knowledge that Ash will no longer be the protagonist in the Gen 9 anime because Ash is literally no longer the star of the show and new kids will never get to see him or his special Greninja in action because of it. It would be weird to highlight Ash in such a manner when he's out of the picture now for the current generation's anime season, and the torch has been passed to Riko now.

Any subsequent overt anime references they make for SV and related Gen 9 games will likely be tied to Riko, since she's now the main protagonist of the show and the star of the story that they want to give focus to now. Meaning if she gets any special mons with special treatment for anime-exclusive stuff, she's the one the games will be giving shout outs to, not Ash.

Dog I'm sorry but it's literally Pikachu in every single cap that Ash has had it could not be more overt about being an Ash reference.
it is walking around in Ash's hat, the hat that Ash owned, his iconic Ash cap. Every single person looking at it knows what's up here. The entire thing hinges on the hat being Ash's to get people to care.

It is just as overt as Ash-Greninja. I'd argue the only reason it's not MORE overt is because they aren't literally called "Ash Pikachu". The OT is even Ash's!

e: All of this made funnier by Ash-Greninja likely still being left in Home's dex and official pokedexes.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Dog I'm sorry but it's literally Pikachu in every single cap that Ash has had it could not be more overt about being an Ash reference.
it is walking around in Ash's hat, the hat that Ash owned, his iconic Ash cap. Every single person looking at it knows what's up here. The entire thing hinges on the hat being Ash's to get people to care.

It is just as overt as Ash-Greninja. I'd argue the only reason it's not MORE overt is because they aren't literally called "Ash Pikachu". The OT is even Ash's!

e: All of this made funnier by Ash-Greninja likely still being left in Home's dex and official pokedexes.

Perhaps I worded my sentiment rather poorly, but what I was getting at is that it isn't the type of Ash reference that has any impact mechanically in terms of gameplay. The Cap Pikachus are more or less Ash references, but they aren't "Pikachu with special powers" like Ash-Greninja was. Well, once upon a time, in the Alola games, they were, since they had a signature Z-Move and Z-Crystal associated with them, the Pikashunium Z and the corresponding Z-Move 10 Million Volt Thunderbolt, representing the unique Z-Move Ash and Pikachu had in the SM anime back then, but not anymore, especially now that Z-Moves are absent from the Switch games. Nowadays they are just legacy variants from a gameplay standpoint who serve no special purpose, there's nothing special about them in SwSh from a gameplay standpoint that makes them stand out aside from the fact that they are associated with Ash. In newer games there's nothing special about them.

The likely reason they are still present in the coding of SV is likely so that they are, at the very minimum, transferrable to SV via HOME since base Pikachu is present in the game and there would be problems from a technical standpoint if the Cap Pikachus were not transferrable while the normal Pikachu is. Right now there's no guarantee there will be any new distributions for them anymore, but for the sake of HOME compatibility they have to be there since they fulfill the same Pokedex slot as Pikachu who is usable in the game. Considering Ash is out the door they may not even distribute new Cap Pikachus anymore in Gen 9 anytime soon, but they're still in the code for compatibility reasons.

It's like how technically, Battle Bond variants of Greninja are still transferrable to the game because Greninja is transferrable, so the Battle Bond version has to be transferrable by proxy. Like the Cap Pikachus it still does have that Ash reference because Ash is also the Battle Bond Greninja's OT in-game. They reworked the ability to remove the form transformation, and in this instance that happened because Ash-Greninja is the type of overt Ash reference that effectively impacts his particular's Greninja's function in battle and accordingly from an in-battle gameplay mechanic standpoint. It's an in-battle transformation that makes the particular Greninja transform into the form during battle while acting as a normal Greninja "base" form otherwise outside of battle.

The cap Pikachus aren't totally "erased" of the Ash reference because of the hats since they aren't an in-battle transformation, they're more like a permanent form in that they're like that to begin with from a programming standpoint. They're more like a "regional form" or an "alternate form" that they stay in both in and out of battle. Gameplay-wise, they have already lost the one thing that made them unique from a battle standpoint, the signature Z-Move (10MVT), so now they're basically legacy data left behind from their event distributions that has to be there by proxy for HOME transferrability since ordinary Pikachu is in the game. It's just that functionally from a gameplay standpoint the Cap Pikachus and Ash-Greninja are quite different, so the former ends up in a different situation from a gameplay point of view.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

there would be problems from a technical standpoint if the Cap Pikachus were not transferrable while the normal Pikachu is.

Spiky-Eared Pichu, meanwhile...

 

[pika pal]

To be fair, though, Pikachu is literally the mascot of the series and has historically been synonymous with Ash. It's also not a special form tied to a transformation with Ash or anything, it's just a "special event rendition" of Pikachu (that's still functionally an ordinary Pikachu) that's more or less commemorative of the Pikachu everyone knows and his Trainer, the long-time anime protagonist Ash, while Ash-Greninja is a special in-battle transformation that only Ash in particular could pull off with his Greninja and is literally an entirely different form that is also similar to a Mega.

The Cap Pikachu aren't really different "forms" per se and are still fundamentally ordinary Pikachu just tied to special events. Pikachu also has a bit of privilege there because it's the mascot of the series. They're not really an *overt Ash reference* in the vein of Ash-Greninja and more just commemorative distributions that are meant to celebrate and indirectly shout out each and every season of the anime in general, not specifically overt Ash references in that regard. Something like Pikashunium Z and the corresponding Z-Move 10 Million Volt Thunderbolt would be more of an overt Ash reference in the vein of Ash-Greninja than the Cap Pikachus.

Battle Bond being reworked makes sense with the hindsight knowledge that Ash will no longer be the protagonist in the Gen 9 anime because Ash is literally no longer the star of the show and new kids will never get to see him or his special Greninja in action because of it. It would be weird to highlight Ash in such a manner when he's out of the picture now for the current generation's anime season, and the torch has been passed to Riko now.

My issue is that nothing requires the Ash-Greninja to be specifically "Ash" Greninja other than the name. You could literally retitle the form to "Bond" Greninja and keep it the same otherwise. Ash being the first to achieve it doesn't mean he has to be literally the only person capable of doing it. The issue proposed that they "will never get to see him or his special Greninja in action" is kind of moot because that was already going to be the case after its exit from the show in XY finale. They wrote it off in such a way that it wasn't rejoining Ash for anything, certainly not reappearing for more than the one-off appearance of Journeys where it was a Mentor rather than a fighter. Ash-Greninja as a show element was used up a long time ago, so not like that's the excuse to kick it out of the games mechanically, kids jumping on late wouldn't be seeing it regardless.

Frankly the framing of Ash Greninja in the Special Demo already kind of suited Ash's eventual departure well, being his Greninja given to you to take care of in his place or his absence. Given he'd already split from Greninja in the anime and now is retiring from the main show, the idea of it passing into player hands from an in-the-games nebulous figure suits where that puts things now.

That aside, I think once the form exists that's a genie they can't put back in the bottle. Anyone who has access or exposure to Ash Greninja is aware of at least that level of existence for Ash, and frankly knowing about Pokemon but not this character seems like it'd be an impossibility even years after his tenure is over. It's akin to someone following Yugioh's media in present, they'll still know about Yugi himself despite the character having been out of the proper limelight for close to 15 years (also his signature cards keep getting legacy support, the closest comparison I can make to bringing back Even/Tie-int Pokemon like the Cap Pikachus, Ash-Greninja, or at least Pokemon with show related moves and movesets in Pokemon's context)

 

[Pikachu315111]

Then there's the birds where even in-universe it's like "We weren't actually sure if these were new Pokemon, but through vauge research, they are" and then refused to elaborate on literally anything.

"The Galarian Birds are totes different Pokemon from the Legendary Birds."
So are you going to give them unique names and separate their dex entries?
"No."

That's kind of my view, although it clashes with a lot of the implications from pre-Gen VIII that Voltorb and Electrode are actually Pokeballs brought to life by some freak occurrence.

(...)

It's broadly possible to reconcile that with H-Voltorb being an ancestor of the modern species. Perhaps it was actually a Hisuian Voltorb that was exposed to a massive pulse of energy and changed form. Or it could just be a total myth, but honestly I find "it's a mutated Pokeball come to life" more interesting than pretty much any other backstory it could conceivably have, especially given the intriguing Crystal dex entry.

What, and they changed from being Apricorn balls to being metallic? How? I'm confused.

Going along the reconciliation/reconstructing route, maybe there is an outside factor we're not considering when it comes to what brings a Voltorb, whether "normal" or "Hisuian" to life.

For theoretical convenience, we'll say that "Voltorb" comes to life via a special Pokerus that has found a way to possess certain round objects (possibly ones which meet a set of requirements) and undergo metamorphosis to become an actual Pokemon. Note, this "Pokerus" could easily be switched out for a spore, a spirit, an energy being, etc.. The point is there is an outside "being" which can cause a specific round object to spontaneous transform into a Voltorb.

During the Hisuian era, Apricorns just so happen to fulfill this requirement. The Pokerus possesses the Apricorn turning it into a Pokemon: a Grass/Electric which shoots seeds and can travel around spinning its bottom part. While the seed shooting and split body seems to directly connect it to Poke Balls, being the first Poke Balls were made from Apricorns and thus the modern inorganic Poke Balls are just copying & modernizing the old design, these traits may actually just be something Apricorns have. Could be Apricorns spread their seeds by shooting them out and also easily split in the middle; it's just that if you never worked with an Apricorn (which I imagine most people don't) you wouldn't know this. And early Poke Ball makers used these two traits to make the first Poke Balls out of Apricorns.

Anyway, time marches on, and the modern Poke Balls are created. While they still split open, they do not need to fire out seeds thus that trait is dummied out. That doesn't seem like a major change at first, but it is: for the special Pokerus. Due to the modern Poke Ball copying plenty of traits of the Apricorns, and modern Poke Balls being WAY more available than Apricorns (which could be on a decline in modern days as they're no longer needed to make Poke Balls), it's better for it to adapt to possessing modern Poke Balls. This results in the normal, pure Electric-type Voltorb we know. From there natural selection plays its part, the Poke Ball possessing Pokerus outperforming the Apricorn possessing Pokerus causing the latter either to adapt or go extinct.

Of course, this adapting didn't go completely smooth. While it seems like having a seed shooter wasn't necessary, the special Pokerus used it as a way to relieve stress as a Hisuian Voltorb. But since normal Voltorb doesn't have it, it has no way to easily release stress. This causes it to be more ornery as now the only way to relieve stress is by exploding which completely knocks it out (a big disadvantage, but apparently not one so major that prevented the modern Poke Ball possessing Pokerus to become dominant). Oh, and because modern Poke Balls are more rigid in structure compared to an organic Apricorn, "normal" Voltorb can no longer spin its bottom part limiting its travelling options to hopping & rolling (maybe rare instances of electromagnetic floating).

So, in conclusion, both the existence of Hisuian Voltorb and that normal Voltorb are spawn from Poke Balls can both be true if you consider them just similar objects, an Apricorn and Poke Ball, which is possessed by the same kind of outside "being" which turns them into Voltorb.

That aside, I think once the form exists that's a genie they can't put back in the bottle. Anyone who has access or exposure to Ash Greninja is aware of at least that level of existence for Ash, and frankly knowing about Pokemon but not this character seems like it'd be an impossibility even years after his tenure is over.

The only way I can see them completely getting "rid" of Ash-Greninja is by giving it a new design with a new name and, most importantly, STICKING with it. The last bit is important, and probably the toughest thing GF and especially the Pokemon Company would have to do. It would mean taking this design that's proven popular with the audience and NEVER using it again; instead opting for the new design which at first will be a toss up whether it'll be accepted or not. And even if the new design doesn't prove popular, if they really want to step away from Ash's influence, they'll have to bite the bullet (something which the Pokemon Company would be very against doing) and keep using the new design even if its never accepted.

As for the Ash Cap Pikachu, yeah they're a bigger problem. Like, you can't even replace the cap because the cap being designed after Ash's is the point of Pikachu even wearing a cap. The only thing I can see being done with the Ash Cap Pikachu is grandfathering them in via them eventually releasing a Cap Pikachu wearing the hat of the new boy protag of the anime (and also having the new girl protag's hairclip on it so it represents them both), changing them from "Ash Cap" to "Anime Cap". They don't just represent Ash, they now will represent the anime as a whole by wearing a cap representing the main protag(s). And then maybe at some point start retiring some of them or make it so for the ones representing Ash you can just change between Ash's hats, that way players don't need to have 8 Ash Caps, they can just have the one.

 

[R_N]

"The Galarian Birds are totes different Pokemon from the Legendary Birds."
So are you going to give them unique names and separate their dex entries?
"No."

to be clear a i mistyped, "but through vague research, they are the same"

and to be more clear i misremembered the wording

These Pokémon seem to bear Ice-type, Electric-type, and Fire-type characteristics, respectively, and so were previously thought to be the same as the Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres seen in other regions. But recently, data gathered from reported sightings and other sources about the Pokémon have bolstered the theory that they are, in fact, distinct variants.

For a long time, it was thought to be the same Legendary Pokémon as the <bird> previously discovered in other regions.

in some ways sillier than how i remembered it, if I'm being hoenst

 

[Nitro Indigo]

Speaking of Poké Balls, I've been under the impression that the reason why people thought Pokémon were converted to energy inside Poké Balls was because of the anime; when a Pokémon is sent out or recalled, they turn into/form out of white light. I wonder if they tried having Pokémon shrink, but it was too hard to animate and/or they couldn't make it look good?

 

[Karxrida]

They do shrink in Pokémon Adventures and I think a couple other manga. It was probably too hard to make look good in the games, while in the anime it was probably easier and cheaper to animate the light thing.