Movepool Revisions - Stratagem

[v]

Approved and sponsored by tennisace.

If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. This is not a Policy Review thread, but requires intelligent posting and serious thought put into every post made.

Introduction:

This is the thread where we will be revising Stratagem's movepool. All aspects of Stratagem's movepool, including TM moves, Move Tutor moves, Level-Up moves, and Egg Moves will be revised according to the limits listed below and the requirements listed in this process guide article. All process details for the revisions can be found in this thread.

Base Stat Rating & Movepool Limits:

This is where the BSR Overall Rating and Movepool Limit are decided. In accordance with this process guide article, all CAPs must have a Overall BSR limit that is balanced by the maximum of that CAP's Very Good Move (VGM) limit. The calculator for the Overall BSR of a Pokemon can be found here.

Stratagem's Overall BSR: 312

Stratagem's Resulting Movepool Size Limit: 75
Stratagem's Resulting VGM Limit: 35
​

Current Movepool:

Reference: X-Act's Winning Movepool
Move Count: 84
VGM Count: 41
​

Level-Up Moves

H. Weather Ball
- Tackle
- Defense Curl
- Rollout
5. Defense Curl
8. Rollout
13. Quick Attack
17. Disable
20. Acupressure
25. Mud Shot
29. Power Gem
32. Headbutt
37. Metal Sound
42. "Ancient Beam"
50. Head Smash

TM/HM Moves

TM04 - Calm Mind
TM06 - Toxic
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM13 - Ice Beam
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM19 - Giga Drain
TM21 - Frustration
TM24 - Thunderbolt
TM25 - Thunder
TM26 - Earthquake
TM27 - Return
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM31 - Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM34 - Shock Wave
TM35 - Flamethrower
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM38 - Fire Blast
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM52 - Focus Blast
TM53 - Energy Ball
TM54 - False Swipe
TM56 - Fling
TM57 - Charge Beam
TM58 - Endure
TM63 - Embargo
TM64 - Explosion
TM65 - Shadow Claw
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM69 - Rock Polish
TM71 - Stone Edge
TM73 - Thunder Wave
TM74 - Gyro Ball
TM75 - Swords Dance
TM76 - Stealth Rock
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM81 - X-scissor
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM89 - U-turn
TM90 - Substitute
HM01 - Cut
HM04 - Strength
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM08 - Rock Climb

Egg Moves

Egg Groups:
-

Moves
-

Move Tutor Moves

- Ancientpower
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave
- Icy Wind
- Iron Head
- Magnet Rise
- Mud-slap
- Ominous Wind
- Rollout
- Signal Beam
- Snore
- Swift
- Vacuum Wave
- Zen Headbutt

New Movepool:

Move Count: 64
VGM Count: 34
​

Level-Up Moves: 13, 3 VGM

- Weather Ball
- Tackle
- Defense Curl
- Rollout
5. Defense Curl
8. Rollout
15. Rock Blast
17. Disable
20. Acupressure
25. Mud Shot
29. Power Gem
32. Double-Edge
37. Metal Sound
42. Paleo Wave
50. Head Smash

TM/HM Moves: 38, 23 VGM

TM04 - Calm Mind
TM06 - Toxic
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM19 - Giga Drain
TM21 - Frustration
TM26 - Earthquake
TM27 - Return
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM32 - Double Team
TM35 - Flamethrower
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM38 - Fire Blast
TM39 - Rock Tomb
TM40 - Aerial Ace
TM42 - Facade
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest
TM53 - Energy Ball
TM54 - False Swipe
TM58 - Endure
TM63 - Embargo
TM64 - Explosion
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM69 - Rock Polish
TM70 - Flash
TM71 - Stone Edge
TM76 - Stealth Rock
TM80 - Rock Slide
TM82 - Sleep Talk
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM90 - Substitute
HM01 - Cut
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM08 - Rock Climb

Egg Moves

for losers

Move Tutor Moves: 15, 8 VGM

- Ancientpower
- Earth Power
- Headbutt
- Heat Wave
- Mud-slap
- Ominous Wind
- Rollout
- Snore
- Swift
- Trick
- Vacuum Wave

Justification:
Here is my change log in the Shoddy patch format:

    Stratagem: +Double-Edge, +Flash, -Strength, -U-Turn, -thunderbolt, -thunder, -shock wave, -gyro ball, -fling, -focus blast, -brick break, -ice beam, -shadow claw, -signal beam, -charge beam, -thunder wave, -zen headbutt, -quick attack, +Trick, -iron head, -icy wind, +rock blast;

I removed a lot of crappy "Very Good" Physical moves. Base 60 Attack just doesn't cut it. Gyro Ball was especially mystifying due to the 130 Base Speed. I deleted Thunderbolt, Thunder and Shock Wave because they are largely redundant with Paleowave, Ancientpower and Rock-type Weather Ball. BoltBeam really isn't that much better than QuakeEdge coverage offered by Earth Power/Rock move, so I also removed that. If it is absolutely imperative that you hit Flygon, then Icy Wind with a Technician boost will certainly do the trick. I took out Focus Blast because, as per the new flavor regulations, Stratagem would need Focus Blast. No way in Hell.

I removed Strength because I don't think Stratagem looks strong. I added Flash because, c'mon. Look at it. Plus it can make Fire from somewhere apparently, so clearly it can light up a cave. Right? Right...

 

[Vaz]

Stratagem's movepool looks a lot cleaner and makes more sence than why it did before. Stratagem with Electric type moves and U-turn was ridiculous. I still do not seem that it is justified that it has Fire Type moves. It performs even better than normal with Energy Ball defeating many other pokemon that it normally could not, such as Colossoil, Arghonaut, other Stratagems, Starmie, Hippowdon and other common threats whether Flamethrower (/Fire Blast) does not provide a better coverage to what Paleo Wave, Earth Power and Energy Ball all together provide. Yes, this pokemon is supposed to be different from other Rock types based on it's original concept, but we do not have to go far beyond this. It is already different from other Rock types an is defenitely not a Stereotype Rock Type.*

On to other moves, a couple of things in its level up pool are just irrelevant. These are:

Toxic - How is it possible for a gem to be able to poison another pokemon. It is unnessecary for nearly every pokemon to receive this move as this one performs perfectly well without it.*

Charge Beam/Thunderwave/Magnet Rise - If Thunderbolt, Thunder and Shock Wave are to be removed, we need to finish off removing the rest of the Electric type moves.

Other unnessecary moves are Signal Beam and possibly to some extent Rain Dance and Sunny Day.*

Overall, a nice job, well done Vader!

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Toxic is required on all Pokemon, much like Substitute or Hidden Power. Personally, I agree about agree that all Electric-type moves should be culled, including Charge Beam, Thunder Wave, Signal Beam, and Magnet Rise. They seem out of place on Stratagem. Rain Dance and Sunny Day are up for grabs; whatever Vader decides on those is fine, since they could go either way and aren't required. I could see them being legit because Strata has Weather Ball and can sort of weather-interact. (He's also a really good Sunny Day starter, actually) Signal Beam does seem a bit random, though. Flamethrower / Fire Blast are actually pretty important for Stratagem, to be perfectly honest, performance aside. (Flamethrower is really crutch against stuff like Skarmory) Either way, though, thanks for the feedback, Vaz!

I haven't had a chance to check this for T-M and M-M moves, yet.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Hi, I went over this movepool in greater detail. When I counted moves that become competitively viable through Technician, added everything up, and subtracted out repeated moves, I came to the following totals:

Move Count: 64
VGM Count: 37
​

I have attached my worksheet to this post so you can look at it and see my counts for yourself. Note that I count Head Smash as a VGM, despite it not being listed. (Since it is powerful enough to be one) Please let me know if you see any discrepancies.

 

[Deck Knight]

Yo Vader I'm gonna try and help you out.

Level-Up

Moves: 15 (2 Repeats)
VGM: 6 4

H. Weather Ball*
- Tackle
- Defense Curl
- Rollout
5. Defense Curl
8. Rollout
13. Quick Attack* - Rock Throw
17. Disable
20. Acupressure
25. Mud Shot* - Mud Bomb
29. Power Gem
32. Double-Edge* - Vacuum Wave*
37. Metal Sound
42. "Ancient Beam"*
50. Head Smash*

Yeah I know, hard to believe but Quick Attack is in the VGM list. Legit, not even counting Tech (though it's probably from an ancient Scizor set). Mud Shot got added because even though Gem's Attack is terrible, the 80-odd power and speed lower would be viable.

You can pick up 2 VGM here just by replacing Mud Shot with Mud Bomb (65 BP makes it ineligible for Tech) and Quick Attack with Rock Throw (which ends up the same BP as Rock Slide but less accuracy and no flinch, which don't really make it comparable.) Double-Edge could be replaced by Vacuum Wave so you'd have a repeat down below.

TM/HM Moves

Moves: 41 38
VGM: 27 24

TM04 - Calm Mind*
TM06 - Toxic*
TM10 - Hidden Power*
TM11 - Sunny Day
TM15 - Hyper Beam*
TM17 - Protect*
TM18 - Rain Dance*
TM19 - Giga Drain*
TM21 - Frustration
TM26 - Earthquake*
TM27 - Return*
TM30 - Shadow Ball*
TM32 - Double Team
TM35 - Flamethrower*
TM37 - Sandstorm
TM38 - Fire Blast*
TM39 - Rock Tomb*
TM40 - Aerial Ace*
TM42 - Facade*
TM43 - Secret Power
TM44 - Rest*
TM53 - Energy Ball*
TM54 - False Swipe
TM57 - Charge Beam*
TM58 - Endure
TM63 - Embargo
TM64 - Explosion*
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM69 - Rock Polish*
TM70 - Flash
TM71 - Stone Edge*
TM73 - Thunder Wave*
TM75 - Swords Dance*
TM76 - Stealth Rock*
TM80 - Rock Slide*
TM82 - Sleep Talk*
TM83 - Natural Gift
TM90 - Substitute*
HM01 - Cut
HM06 - Rock Smash
HM08 - Rock Climb

Rock Tomb was added through tech viability since it's BP would match Rock Slide / standard Rock Blast. Recommendations here are dropping Swords Dance, Aerial Ace, and Thunder Wave.

Tutor Moves

Moves: 14 11 (1 repeat)
VGM: 9 6

- Ancientpower*
- Earth Power*
- Headbutt
- Heat Wave*
- Icy Wind*
- Iron Head*
- Magnet Rise*
- Mud-slap
- Ominous Wind*
- Rollout
- Snore
- Swift
- Vacuum Wave*
- Zen Headbutt*

Ominous Wind and Icy Wind got added through Tech viability.

So all tolled I count 68 Moves and 42 VGM between my and Dusk's combined methods.

Easiest drops for tutors are Iron Head, Heat Wave, and Zen Headbutt. None of them are M-M requirements. I'm assuming you want Ghost attacks /Icy Wind for CAP Ubers :D

So with the recommended drops (8 in total) you fall from 42 to 34 (and total moves from 68 to 63), so you still have some playing room if you want to add back in Thunder Wave or Trick.

These are just recommendations, but they should drop you below where you need to go.

I'll need to revise Pyroak again based on the information in your chart Dusk (DE), actually. That'll be done shortly.

 

[X-Act]

Funny that my first movepool (the one that's being linked to in this thread) didn't have Ice Beam, and then I added it, and now it got removed again. :)

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Double-Edge could be replaced by Vacuum Wave so you'd have a repeat down below.

Remember that Double-Edge is a T-M move for Rock-type, so you can't just drop it.

So with the recommended drops (8 in total) you fall from 42 to 34 (and total moves from 68 to 63), so you still have some playing room if you want to add back in Thunder Wave or Trick.

I think this is fair, and I really recommend keeping Trick in the movepool. Anyway, I also agree with the Icy Wind as VGM call (I completely forgot about it doing that spreadsheet last night at 3AM); Rock Tomb makes sense too. (Guaranteeing the loss of a Speed stage is nice, although 80% accuracy gives a fair trade-off with Rock Slide) I also think that Magnet Rise could be gotten rid of, because of the presence of Levitate and how you really want the coverage if you're running TechniStrata. It also doesn't make much sense from a flavor point of view.

I'll need to revise Pyroak again based on the information in your chart Dusk (DE), actually. That'll be done shortly.

What revelation did you have? I didn't think I included anything brand new in my lil' worksheet.

Edit: Oops. Yeah, Double-Edge would be a VGM on Pyroak, but I typod in my worksheet. Despite being required, it's not a VGM without Rock Head.

 

[Vaz]

Guys, Flamethrower is really unneccesary on Stratagem. Paleo Wave together with Earth Power and Energy Ball provide a better coverage than having Flamethrower over Energy ball ever would in the CaP metagame. There are no Scizors or Forretresses in CaP which is the biggest reason why it is unneccesary. Paleo Wave also hits Skarmory ofr a 2HKO, like Flamethrower does. I do not see how it can be better in any way possible, please consider removing it and the other Fire type moves.

 

[smallvizier]

Vaz,

The philosophy of this set of revisions is [...] to revert each movepool to the stage where it might have been had the above restrictions been in place during its creation. [...] These movepools must be revised based on the conditions and metagame features of the time period within which they are created.

CaP projects aren't designed to fit into the CaP metagame - that's just a happy accident. They are designed to fit into the OU metagame that was around when they were made. That means it appreciates options to take out Forretress and Scizor.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I absolutely agree with smallvizier here. (He quoted me!)

I've updated my spreadsheet below with some fixes (Double-Edge is not a VGM on Strata, similarly, can't believe I forgot Mud Bomb with Technician). I come out to 67/41, so not where where Deck was getting 68/42. Anyway, it's attached to this post and stuff for reference.

I agree with Deck. The way to go is to remove:

• Thunder Wave
• Quick Attack > Rock Throw
• Swords Dance
• Aerial Ace
• Icy Wind (We have Mud Bomb, which is actually useful on TechStrata)
• Heat Wave
• Iron Head
• Zen Headbutt

This will drop you 8 VGMs and 7 moves in total, which will help a lot and bring this into working range. You could then, with the free VGM slot, bring back Trick. (Important!)

Cheers.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Okay, after some IRC discussion we came to a final conclusion for the movepool. I have attached my spreadsheet for Stratagem to this post. The big differences between what's currently in the first post and the final movepool is listed below.

• Iron Head replaced by Trick
• Quick Attack replaced by Rock Blast

Otherwise, looks fine to me. Great job, Vader.

 

[petrie911]

• Icy Wind (We have Mud Bomb, which is actually useful on TechStrata)

Why is Mud Bomb mentioned here? Mud Bomb and Icy Wind have entirely different effects. Unless you were referring to Mud Shot, which is the ground type version of Icy Wind. Actually, I'm kind of confused why Mud Shot got thrown out at all. If it's a matter of Mud Shot being a VGM, you could just throw out Aerial Ace, which is hardly needed.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

It was a typo in my previous post; I meant Mud Shot. We discussed the movepool in greater detail this morning and many of my previous suggestions were not removed (there was really no reason to). Please refer to the updated spreadsheet in my last post.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Your current counts are:

Moves: 62 (3 repeats)
VGMs: 33 (1 repeat)
​

I have the following recommendations for this movepool for now:

• Rock Tomb needs to be added to the movepool because all Rock-types in the game get it, despite not being listed as a T-M.
• Add back in Mud Shot over Mud Bomb, as it could actually be useful on Technician sets
• Remove Magnet Rise. I know it might make a bit of sense thematically, but it's the most expendable VGM on the list.
• The flavor level-up movepool is kind of terrible right now, see below for my suggestions on it.

After you do my suggestions above, you have:

Moves: 62 (3 repeats)
VGMs: 34 (1 repeat)
​

About the flavor in the level-up movepool, it's actually so wonky right now, that I want to make sure that we fix it before we put this thing live. Stratagem is my favorite CAP, so you're not getting out of this one easily! I'd also like to point out that a ton of Rock-type Pokemon get Flamethrower/Fire Blast without Ember (Aerodactyl / Tyranitar / Etc.), so you really have no reason to add that weirdness in.

This is what you have currently:

H. Weather Ball*
- Tackle
- Defense Curl
- Rollout
5. Defense Curl
8. Rollout
13. Ember
15. Poison Gas
17. Disable
20. Acupressure
25. Mud Bomb
29. Power Gem
32. Double-Edge
37. Metal Sound
42. Paleo Wave*
50. Head Smash*
​

This is what I suggest:

H. Weather Ball*
- Tackle
- Defense Curl
- Rollout
5. Defense Curl
8. Rollout
15. Rock Blast*
17. Disable
20. Acupressure
25. Mud Shot*
29. Power Gem
32. Double-Edge
37. Metal Sound
42. Paleo Wave*
50. Head Smash*
​

This maintains the core of Stratagem's flavor movepool, but gives it some love in the form of Rock Blast and Mud Shot. This brings the total count for Stratagem's movepool to:

Moves: 61 (3 repeats)
VGMs: 35 (1 repeat)
​

...which is legitimate and a good place to sit for Stratagem. If you make these changes and post confirming that you do, I will approve of this movepool. I've attached my updated spreadsheet with all of these changes made for reference.

 

[v]

Alright, I've made the prescribed changes and I think that that means I'm done.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I have reviewed this and it meets all requirements, restrictions, and even my personal "this movepool is awesome" requirement. It is good to go. Good job, Vader!

TENNISACE WAS HERE AND APPROVES THIS MESSAGE