Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[wesh papillon]

Why would this mon be banned when it sucks. It has two wins in five weeks of LCPL. I don't really think I've ever seen anyone lose to this mon when they didn't

A. Bring a bad team
B. Let it set up for free

The main argument seems to be that Shellos provides literally no positive value to the tier but that obviously isn't true
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1614332413

In this LCPL match, you can see Shellos provide value as a defensive pivot throughout the match before eventually fulfilling its role as a defensive win-condition. It is clearly providing positive value for Gray here beyond basic cringe Shellos shit.

Like yeah, the mon is annoying and can cause RNG moments but that doesn't mean it should be banned, especially when banning it would fix none of the problems the meta has. I'd also like to reiterate that this mon fucking sucks. Just bring Frillish if you're really that scared of a B-rank mon.

You prob haven't seen shellos in action then, despite the bad tour performance in a couple lcpl games, shellos still has its biggest counter be hax. No one has said anything to disprove this. The bad thing team is just wrong as well, cuz u can easily setup on a lot of perfectly viable mons.

At its essence shellos is trying to just muscle its way through whole teams, and if you dont crit it, it will.

The frillish thing is dumb btw. This may come as a surprise but if your playing a 6v6, so you can use other pokemon to cripple the frillish.

Fianlly ur replays proves nothing, ofc the mon will see a bit of mid game action if its used by a good player lol. If u seriously think shellos was on the team over frillish for those mid game interactions idk what to tell u.

If you lose to this there's a 99% chance you deserved it (The 1% is if you're fighting the Magby-Larv Poisoned Pawniard Godsquad piloted by the Consigliere of Little Cup DOOR MONEY).

this isnt an argument+ ur just wrong. Most ppl lose to magby bc there staryu, abra or pony lost a speed tie and the rest of the team just crumbles. I think u have to be on immense amounts of copium to think that magby isnt degenerate.

This one actually blows my mind. Screens as a strategy is:

• Very niche
• Not really that good
• Has obvious counterplay
• Unlike something like Shellos, is not RNG based at all.

Being niche doesnt mean it isnt good. What does good even mean? its good at cheesing win, takes most of the skills of positioning and gameplannign out of the game. Is the peak of lc? Should every top player be using it? No, obviously not. This doesn't mean it isnt incredibly reductive and not at all a good indicator of skill, which is an issue in a competitve game. The fact is that any good given team can realistically just mono lose to magby behind screens, or a cosmic natu behind screens. The game is decided at mu essentially.

If you're regularly losing to screens it is legit a "you" problem. Another example of people trying to ban a noob-killer strategy because it's annoying. This whole "great cheese ban" meme relies entirely on the notion that every team should be some variant of BO, which is obviously antithetical to any kind of fun or diverse metagame. This suspicion is basically confirmed by stuff like this:

Contrary to popular belief, no, I do not constantly lose to screens, I am clearly a noob tho so maybe thats why I hate noob killer Strats. I would I argue I have a fairly broad view of the meta and overall I think the tier would be better off with no cheese. The fact that its a noob killer Strat doest take away from the fact thats its uncompetitive. I find the everything should be BO thing to be hilarious tho, u can look through my builder and find a lot of stuff that isnt BO lol. In fact I lay claim to laying the ground works to a lot of different styles.

As for the "antithetical to fun", I have yet to meet a single person that likes using or playing against cheese.

I mean seriously, you're saying Spikes might be problematic? Get real. Also, how is the munchlax guy of all people complaining about Sun??? Banning Cosmic Power??? What???

Thats not what I said, I clearly said I thought sun and spikes were fine. I think its important to point out that I personally have a biased opinion on both of these so it wouldve been unfair to not at least mention them. Did you read what I said or did you just look at the little pictures? As for banning cosmic power, it should eb lumped in with shellos, same arguments lol.

 

[LC_Cool]

What would you say is the best team overall

 

[DuGuo]

What would you say is the best team overall

No doubt it's papillon's
I know that short posts will be deleted, so I want to say more. Papillon's team is very cool and creative and full of spirituality.
For the current LC, I don't think any team can be called the best except papillon's. The balanced teams are basically the same, but slight differences will lead to different mu. Ho team sometimes gets good mu, sometimes it gets poor mu, this is very unstable.

 

[ninjadog]

What would you say is the best team overall

any Drifting godsquad

 

[Shandeur]

What would you say is the best team overall

https://pokepast.es/4f28d11b19fe100d Shameless Plug

Regardless, There's no one best team currently. The meta has many different styles as of current with different mons, but Spikes Balance and Bulky Offense archetypes are good contenders.

 

[wesh papillon]

What would you say is the best team overall

Prob some variation of

Mienfoo/ pawniard/ koffing/tyrunt/grookey and then like natu/diglett/frillish

Tho theres plenty of other ways to build good teams to compete, so dont restrict urself too much

No doubt it's papillon's
I know that short posts will be deleted, so I want to say more. Papillon's team is very cool and creative and full of spirituality.
For the current LC, I don't think any team can be called the best except papillon's. The balanced teams are basically the same, but slight differences will lead to different mu. Ho team sometimes gets good mu, sometimes it gets poor mu, this is very unstable.

omg?

 

[LC_Cool]

Thank you all for replying and how do you all find good teams and Pokémon because smogoon does not have a lot of Pokémon done except the main one so is there a good way to find that out or just play ladder on show down and look for good teams and mon's

 

[Shandeur]

A way I find teams is to either

A) Ask People for them to see if a team similar to what I'm trying to find was made already
B) Check Samples to see if anyone's made something around said team
C) If all else fails, I'll build the team myself

 

[Drifting]

Thank you all for replying and how do you all find good teams and Pokémon because smogoon does not have a lot of Pokémon done except the main one so is there a good way to find that out or just play ladder on show down and look for good teams and mon's

Here’s what I would do:

* Go to the Sample Teams thread, I don’t really like using the samples themselves, but going through what people replying to it are submitting, especially the more recent ones

* Go to the Team Bazaar thread, same story.

* The LC Premier League is going on right now, and if you want really good tournament-viable teams you can watch the replays and recreate the teams being used in your builder

* If you want some more unusual/fun teams you can take from the Teambuilding Competition thread that I run, a lot of cool teams are there

Hope these help you until you gain more confidence building yourself! If you want advice I think Freezai has a pretty good tutorial on LC teambuilding on his channel.

 

[Colin]

Hey, last time I posted about the topic of possible suspects, I was too eager to find a good solution to the problems with the current meta, those being the prominent speed ties, and the match up fishing that is heavily encouraged. I still want to find a solution to these problems, however I realized with a little less than a month to think on it I convinced myself of fallacies, or that there was a good/safe solution to improve the meta that we just hadn't identified. I also see a lot of the benefits of the Vullaby meta more clearly, since Vullaby's presence discouraged speed ties and its pivot/mixed sets at least encouraged skillful play by allowing a stopgap to most physical threats and a consistent way to make progress that wasn't conditional on other pivots getting it in (it still loves them like everything else, but you don't have to pass a 17 war when winning to finish off the game with it or break the opposing team more). I still think Vullaby doesn't have enough answers to be not broken, but I can appreciate the interactions it is in when it doesn't ask me to use Pawniard or Onix to counter it, with pawn losing to mixed/np sets and having poor longevity, and Onix being less useful in other interactions and vulnerable to Trapinch.

I mainly voted keep banned on the premise that there should be other solutions to the meta's problems that wouldn't revert the meta to a better, although still undesirable tier. My premise did not work out, as we have no great options to ban since the current tier doesn't have any stupidly broken stuff running around causing problems, and instead suffers from unhealthy speed ties and match up fishing. Mienfoo ban is the most obvious way to solve the 17 wars, as it is used on nearly every bulky offense, enters against the most Pokemon, and routinely speed ties vs itself and Natu during all stages of the game. we don't know what the meta would look like with it gone, as Mienfoo is very important defensively, but its a risk that I would be okay taking even if we would have to spend a lot of time suspecting many things after it left. Natu is my preferred choice of action, but it does nothing wrong except for the speed ties, and so suspecting it instead of something else is rather tame and very conservative. Grookey has also been shouted for a suspect, although apart from it vs Natu it is in much fewer speed ties. instead, it is accused of being over centralizing thanks to grassy glide invalidating many Pokemon. Arena trap is less accused, but it being gone would decentralize the meta since a comparable number of Pokemon are invalidated/hurt by arena trap then are by Grookey, although counter trapping and Grookey are easier to use to beat arena trap Pokemon then SpA dig is for Grookey.

All of the above options are flawed. none of these Pokemon, apart from sometimes Grookey and Arena trap are ever considered broken in a traditional way, and we don't know what will happen if any of these Pokemon are banned. Each individually, we are willing or unwilling to suspect or ban each of these Pokemon individually, and right now there is no clear majority of which option to choose, only that we are dissatisfied with the current meta. It also doesn't help that there are no traditionally broken Pokemon. It is for this reason that I request either polls/surveys in a desperate attempt to organize our opinions into something useful, raise the voting requirements since the ladder is kinda bad and skewed a lot towards newer players right now, or have a non ladder suspect (i.e, only accomplished tournament players can vote) since the Vullaby ladder was a disaster, and any other different ladder would likely be comparably useless. if you are going to say that us newer player's votes shouldn't matter since we're bad, then raise the reqs or do non ladder suspect instead of insulting us, since that would actually have a point and could get something done. To my knowledge, most of the best tournament players and council wanted Vullaby to come back, and while I don't agree I can admit that I and many other newer players were conservative and scared off by Vullaby, and the ladder did nothing to help and the resources that we could use to make a more informed opinion were not the greatest.

Note that I am not an accomplished tournament player and what I said is opinion and interpretations of my observations, not fact.

 

[baby nico]

Hi guys, this is my first post here and in the whole of Smogon, if I don't understand anything about the purposes of this thread or anything, please do tell me. I recently started playing a lot of LC on ladder, experimenting with different sets and building a lot of teams, and I'd like to share a few that I've found to be interesting, even if they'e not considered particularly viable. It's also possible that all of these sets have already been thought of or used, that I'm not aware of, and I apologise in advance for that.

Meowth

Meowth @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Double Edge

Since Mienfoo seemed to be on nearly every team I face, I spent a fair bit of time trying to figure out a consistent way to beat it, since I initially struggled. While this is far from a good switch-in, I found Mienfoo was nearly always the lead, and when I used one of my own, the first few turns were always a Fake Out speed tie followed by a Knock Off speed tie, then double U-Turn, or something of the like. I created this Meowth set as an Anti-Mienfoo lead. The idea is simply to hope the opponent is reckless (not the ability) and goes for Hi Jump Kick on turn 2 after they get Faked Out. This idea works a surprising amount of the time. Fake Out + Aerial Ace is always a two hit kill thanks to Technician + Life Orb, and I really like this set, despite it's utility being lacking outside of beating a Mienfoo lead. It gets completely walled by Ferroseed, and I generally just use it to get as much damage as possible before dying.

Krabby

Krabby @ Choice Band
Ability: Hyper Cutter
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Knock Off
- Crabhammer
- Superpower

This is another personal favorite of mine. The idea of this set is just to safely get this Pokemon in versus a Diglett, Larvesta, or any other Pokemon that can't KO it, and click Crabhammer, or a coverage move depending on what Pokemon you predict their switch to be. 9 times out of 10 the opponent doesn't have a safe switch-in and is forced to sacrifice a Pokemon to bring in their Magnemite or Porygon or something else that can outspeed and kill it. This set is not infallible, however, for a few reasons. Mienfoo can sometimes kill with Fake Out + Hi Jump Kick, and this set only has a 6.3% chance to KO Mienfoo on the switch-in. For this reason, and similar situations versus other Pokemon, I like to pair this with a Diglett, because it can trap and kill most switch-ins, as well as the specialised Magnemite set to trap and kill Ferroseed, if you're locked into Crabhammer, as opposed to a guaranteed kill with Superpower straight away. I've built a whole team just around this set, including two Teleport pivots, Diglett, Magnemite and a Ponyta, and it's done very well for me.

I was going to post a Scorbunny set here, but it turns out it already exists ://

Finally, here are my thoughts on the meta based off a few days of experience. I really struggle to deal with sun teams, in particular one from a ladder tour account called Red Demon, I don't know if they'll see this, but I've played them at least 5 times on the ladder now and lost every single time. Charmander + Vulpix + Ponyta are really hard to stop, as well as a really interesting Slowpoke set he runs with Flamethrower, Teleport and Sunny Day (and presumably Slack Off but I haven't seen it yet). I genuinely can't seem to build a team to beat it without just losing to the rest of the meta. If anyone has any advice on that I'd be glad to hear it. As I talked about in my Meowth set, Mienfoo is really really strong, and I struggle with every team to find a way to deal with it. Koffing is another Pokemon I don't like dealing with, its huge Defense stat in comparison with the rest of the tier makes it incredible hard to break physically. I've had at least 3 or 4 games that have gone Mienfoo Fake Out turn -> we Knock Off each other -> they switch to Koffing and I Knock that off too -> I switch to Mariene on the Sludge Bomb / Will o Wisp -> switch to Diglett on the Thunderbolt, then play on from there. It's not dominating in the games I play, but I always have to have a specific strategy to deal with it, and it can just switch out versus Abra/Natu. Ponyta seems really powerful, the Fire immunity with Flash Fire, it's wide coverage, many possible sets, and versatility makes it hard to predict and stop when it gets going. Even if you trap it with Diglett, if they have a Flame Charge up then it doesn't even work. Water types fall to a nice predict with Wild Charge, or a Solar Blade in the sun. High Horsepower is another nice coverage move for Koffing, Fire types and Mariene. Sorry that these thoughts aren't particularly structured, it's essentially me rambling for a paragraph

Overall, I've really enjoyed the Little Cup metagame so far, and possibly my favorite part has been everyone on ladder being so kind and sportsmanlike (with one exception), I really appreciate it, and honestly I expected anyone who spends their time on a competitive Pokemon website to be really toxic, but I was happily proved wrong. If anyone sees me online (my username is babynico), please challenge me to a game, I'd love to battle a more experienced player and learn from it.

 

[wesh papillon]

Overall, I've really enjoyed the Little Cup metagame so far, and possibly my favorite part has been everyone on ladder being so kind and sportsmanlike (with one exception), I really appreciate it, and honestly I expected anyone who spends their time on a competitive Pokemon website to be really toxic, but I was happily proved wrong. If anyone sees me online (my username is babynico), please challenge me to a game, I'd love to battle a more experienced player and learn from it.

If you want to play vs more experienced players you should ask for games in the little cup discord

 

[ZeStinky]

hey guys, this is my first and probably last post but I would like to share some info about some fun, yet pretty bad pokemon i've tested with

Magby

Magby? (Skwovet) @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gluttony
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Crunch
- Belly Drum
- Body Slam

guys look it's magby 2! skwovet belly drum with salac is pretty funny, although almost objectively worse than magby. only thing it has over it is a little bit more coverage, although when your smacking everything for 10 billion damage anyway, usually doesn't matter too much.

Little Nut Man

Snorunt @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 Atk / 196 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Switcheroo
- Spikes
- Ice Shard

snornut is the only pokemon with spikes and a swapping move in little cup and honestly, its not bad. obviously gets deleted by mienfoo lead but crippling walls by swapping a scarf onto them is super nice, although basically everything else about snornut isnt. i mean, it can revenge kill grookey, natu, trapinch and diglett if it still does have its scarf and do reliable chip. may work on a hyper offense team, i've had a tiny bit of success with it.

Shelly

Shelmet @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 116 Atk / 156 Def / 236 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Leech Life
- Energy Ball
- Spikes
- Yawn

as a person who thinks trick room is the 3rd best terrain based strategy behind hail and sun, i approve of this set! yeah but this acts as the best lead on a trick room team, so at least it has a very tiny niche i guess.

Clauncher

Clauncher @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mega Launcher
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 12 Atk / 20 Def / 212 SpA / 12 SpD / 244 Spe
Naive Nature
- Terrain Pulse
- U-turn
- Water Pulse
- Aura Sphere

now, you might think that water pulse is the main attack. wrong, terrain pulse on grassy terrain has 195 power, so thats pretty funny. its bad, but funny.

Yampy

Yamper @ Eviolite
Ability: Ball Fetch
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 Def / 36 SpA / 196 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rest
- Volt Switch
- Nuzzle
- Charm

this is a sad attempt to try and make yamper a defensive pivot. now you might be wondering why im running ball fetch, this is because i want my yamper to be slow as possible so it can successfully get stuff on the field. also you can run shed shell to bait in diglett for the funny but just don't use this set.

overall, these sets are all terribly fun. if you play them, don't blame me for your drop into the 1000's range of little cup

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

Little Nut Man

Snorunt @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 Atk / 196 Def / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Switcheroo
- Spikes
- Ice Shard

snornut is the only pokemon with spikes and a swapping move in little cup and honestly, its not bad. obviously gets deleted by mienfoo lead but crippling walls by swapping a scarf onto them is super nice, although basically everything else about snornut isnt. i mean, it can revenge kill grookey, natu, trapinch and diglett if it still does have its scarf and do reliable chip. may work on a hyper offense team, i've had a tiny bit of success with it.

If you want to use a scarf snorunt, remove the bulk and add more attack and speed. It has potential, as it reaches 15 speed with a positive nature. Ice Stab is pretty fantastic. You're just going to need to find a way around having 50 in every stat. You could likely pair it with Grookey for a powerful combination, as you'd struggle against resists such as Water and Steel Types but Grookey covers both with priority Grassy Glide and Drain Punch.

 

[ZeStinky]

If you want to use a scarf snorunt, remove the bulk and add more attack and speed. It has potential, as it reaches 15 speed with a positive nature. Ice Stab is pretty fantastic. You're just going to need to find a way around having 50 in every stat. You could likely pair it with Grookey for a powerful combination, as you'd struggle against resists such as Water and Steel Types but Grookey covers both with priority Grassy Glide and Drain Punch.

makes sense, ive only really thought about pairing it with stuff that cannot run coverage versus onix, diglett & mudbray, like galar ponyta and koffing, never thought about the grookey synergy

 

[ZeStinky]

dumping my sets part 2: electric boogaloo
this dump features mons that i have actually had decent success with on the ladder and unironically think they could be like D tier on the vr

The Cat

The Cat (Espurr) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Infiltrator
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 36 SpD / 212 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Trick

espurr works somewhat decent as a late game cleaner/revenge killer due to having solid coverage and beating some key mons. energy ball deletes the water/ground types running around. can switch into mienfoo and has an 80% chance to murder pivot sets after rocks & stops a mienfoo choice scarf sweep. trick can cripple walls and with eviolite, espurr becomes a somewhat decent pivot. thunderbolt hits natu & mareanie hard and deletes archen, although lets in ground types. you can also run dark pulse to delete natu without letting grounds & grookey switch in on it & do chip damage to tanks, although i dont recommend it, plus it still lets in trapinch easily. speaking of which, espurr itself is revenge killed easily, trapinch, non-grassy seed grookey, and diglett all 1 shot it after rocks. koffing, pawniard, frillish, and ferroseed stone wall this thing too, so i recommend paring it with something that can counter these like berry juice ponyta to deal with all four of those tanks or sturdyjuice onix to set rocks so it can potentially ohko mienfoo & archen and switch in on espurr's worst matchups. overall, espurr isn't great, but it isnt too bad either.

Subful

Stufful @ Berry Juice
Ability: Fluffy
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Double-Edge
- Thunder Punch

stufful is a late game sweeper that can, setup and sweep no way bro fr fr? it can beat a shocking amount of mons after a sub due to the raw power of 18 attack stab focus punch. this thing melts most of the tier with its power and coverage. the steels get deleted by focus punch, waters get hit hard by thunder punch and the rest get hit incredibly hard by double edge, while its recoil can also bring stufful into berry juice range. this is a hard mon to talk about cause its so simple. i dont feel like i have to explain much because its all right there. there isn't any other moves you could use, maybe ice punch for grounds? use coverage for flame body and static people n' stuff. things that can get it on the field are nice, so flip turn staryu works with it decently due to the water typing and it being a switching move. honestly i think you can just figure this one out for yourself.


only 2 mons for today, it's super tiring to explain all this so im going to go to bed and hope people enjoyed this when i wake up

 

[Baloor]

Hey yall, I would like to propose something that would make the tier better for everyone:




Again this pokemon is just dumb. it will 6-0 pretty normal teams that would otherwise do fine in most MU.

Should prob be banned:



This dude is just a cheese win button, the counterplay to it exists but in practice its just a stupid mon that wins games it otherwise shouldnt.

​

im bumping this because the next week or two is the last chance LC will have to "fix" the tier. when pap initially posted this I thought it was stupid, but after some time playing more games & watching other tour games, I've grown to hate these very low skill high reward mons its very obvious that this tier has an abundance of flaws, several of which are unfixable, but the removal of at least magby benefits the tiers in many ways with no collateral. Behind screens, magby can make a shit ton of progress just by clicking bdrum and going durr, forcing multiple sacks a lot of the time and opening holes for another broken like tyrunt to come in and win. Even outside of screens on stuff like cottonee teams, it can find a way to be constantly annoying and set up. While this is the relative gameplan of most hyper offense in any tier, magby does this to a disturbingly effective degree in most matchups. There is very little reliable counterplay that doesnt include speedties outside of sash dig (evio to an extent) and sash abra. Sash dig is relatively common, however, not every structure can fit it. Sash Abra has fallen off a lot and doesnt seen a ton of usage. It's incredibly low skill, winning games and forcing progress just because you clicked a button. I find shellos to be in the same vein, however, due to its lower speed tier and needing "more" to get going, i think shellos is a lower priority and would be content with just a magby ban.

I'd really like to see magby ban and hoping that posting this might help action get taken on it before the end of the gen to at least fix one of the current problems we face in gen8lc. Magby (and shellos) is very unfun and does not promote skillful play in the slightest.

edit: I also am editing this to call Drifting dumb as saying "dont choke" and "just use mons that kill it" is a bad defense. if mons was that simple, me and him would be playing each other in SCL. As I said in this post, magby is very good at punching holes in its teammates shared checks or cleaning up after the teammates deal with it. Like beardeddrakon mentioned, a particularly annoying core is magby + tyrunt, as they share counterplay (or mons that "kill it") and are very good at chipping these checks down then snowballing with the other. The problem comes from how good magby works in conjunction with his common teammates (+screens) and not the mon in a vacuum one on one scenario like drifting seems to think is happening every time he brings up this argument in discord. While I think screens without magby would still be annoying, i dont think it would be as brainless as it is now and a lot more manageable.

 

[Colin]

im bumping this because the next week or two is the last chance LC will have to "fix" the tier. when pap initially posted this I thought it was stupid, but after some time playing more games & watching other tour games, I've grown to hate these very low skill high reward mons its very obvious that this tier has an abundance of flaws, several of which are unfixable, but the removal of at least magby benefits the tiers in many ways with no collateral. Behind screens, magby can make a shit ton of progress just by clicking bdrum and going durr, forcing multiple sacks a lot of the time and opening holes for another broken like tyrunt to come in and win. Even outside of screens on stuff like cottonee teams, it can find a way to be constantly annoying and set up. While this is the relative gameplan of most hyper offense in any tier, magby does this to a disturbingly effective degree in most matchups. There is very little reliable counterplay that doesnt include speedties outside of sash dig (evio to an extent) and sash abra. Sash dig is relatively common, however, not every structure can fit it. Sash Abra has fallen off a lot and doesnt seen a ton of usage. It's incredibly low skill, winning games and forcing progress just because you clicked a button. I find shellos to be in the same vein, however, due to its lower speed tier and needing "more" to get going, i think shellos is a lower priority and would be content with just a magby ban.

I'd really like to see magby ban and hoping that posting this might help action get taken on it before the end of the gen to at least fix one of the current problems we face in gen8lc. Magby (and shellos) is very unfun and does not promote skillful play in the slightest.

seconding this; although the meta has seen developments such as Scarf Frillish which also reliably revenge kills Magby, Magby makes it much harder to use Pokemon such as Porygon, Trapinch, and others because when behind screens it punishes most defensive staples of the tier. It can even viably run Adamant, which OHKO'es Eviolite Diglett with Mach punch, so even traditionally cheese resistant structures such as memento runt aren't safe.

Tyrunt is also problematic due to its sheer number of options for coverage, and it can just click attacks to weaken its switch ins in a long game. It partners very well with Magby, as Magby is really good vs slower grounds and waters while Tyrunt, especially its T fang variant, can beat faster foes that Magby is unreliable against. Grookey is important for most screen abusing teams, as since it cannot effectively be offensively checked by most faster foes it can reliably force in Koffing/Natu which are often the best setup opportunity to the Tyrunt + Magby core (this is why wisp should be slotted on most koffing). it is this part of the chain that Vullaby's return could best disrupt, but then you have to face NP vull too...)

Screens Natu and Sash Memento Diglett can reliably give their team protection, and while they can be stalled/switched out of, LC games are short to begin with. I think Light Clay is the broken part, because LC games are usually in their endgame phase by turn 30 or so, and so simply getting free Magby setup for 8 turns only is a lot less limiting then it is in higher tiers, where they can be stalled out easier without having a Magby in your face.

The 4th slot gives screens flexibility as an archetype; they can run setup Natu and use Staryu for screens, they can go Shellder to win vs cheese, they can go SD foo to overwhelm Koffing for Grookey, etc. because of this, counter teaming screens is a lot harder.

Screens in particular is a burden on the builder, but players are encouraged to cheese since they tend to not rely on speed ties as much as many of the less modern types of bulky offense, although many of the newer ones are using Pokemon such as Larvesta which can get momentum off of Mienfoo.

 

[Drifting]

Seeing a bit of epic Magby discourse, so I decided I wanted to make a post talking about all the main counters we have for it in the meta right now.



Natu: U-turn > Thunder Wave

I think in general Thunder Wave Natu is underrated for it's ability to cripple Tyrunt and Magby, when Natu is typically the best mon to set-up on for these two threats. It's also just good to click in general because paralysis is broke. This is moreso for Tyrunt, because between Wisp Koffing and TWave Natu Tyrunt struggles to ever reasonably get going, but the same logic of course applies to Magby.



Scarfed Ghosts

These two are easily the best Magby counter in the game, outspeeding it, being immune to mach punch and ohko'ing magby.



The Ground-types

These three shut down Magby easily. Scarf Mudbray and Evio Diglett both outspeed Magby, live mach punch and KO it back, and Onix just eats anything. Also, even if you're not running Scarf Mudbray, your opponent doesn't necessarily know that and may just Mach for damage anyway.



Defensive Ponyta

This thing lives even a Thunder Punch and can KO back with High Horsepower, if rocks are up you do die to Thunder Punch, but any sane Magby user will go for Mach against a 75% Ponyta because most Ponyta are BJ and would die.



Sash Abra/Dig

Even if Abra loses the tie it eats the hit and kills back with Psychic.



Priority

Assuming you do any damage to Magby on the turn it clicks BD, you can usually revenge kill it with Priority. You might have to sack a mon or two sometimes, but it's definitely a very good out to shut down the opponent's win-con.



60 Defense Tyrunt

If you move the Sp.Def EVs on Tyrunt to defense instead it lives Mach and kills back.



19 Speed Moment

Literally all else fails you can just win the tie(s) and finish Magby off that way.

***

The best counter for Magby though is inevitably positioning and awareness. Many of the gimmicky teams that use Magby are very obvious in what they're trying to do, and playing to avoid things like Koffing get Memento'd or killing with Grookey while Screens are up is important. Is countering Magby more stressful and skill-dependant than using Magby? Sure, but that's just how HO and gimmicks are, you're making winning less complex in exchange for being less adaptable.

With that in mind, along with all the counters listed above that, frankly, at least one of should be on every viable team anyway, I would probably be against banning Magby (or Tyrunt for that matter), and this is coming from a guy who despises cheese.

Shellos is also super cringe but that mon isn't even good so I don't think banning it makes much sense.

Edit: I will say that Baloor is right that me previously saying "don't choke lol" is very stupid. Iirc when I said that we hadn't seen the Magby takeover beyond some niche cheese teams yet, but obviously calling it a noob-killer is inaccurate and aged poorly. I'll definitely take the L on that one. With that being said though, I still don't think the mon is ban-worthy. I don't even think it's better than Tyrunt as a win-condition.

 

[DaSlabhead]

so after playing against sum players on the ladder n the lc discord i got sum 2 cents bout this meta:

koffing da best pokemon in the tier. none of dat foo or natu bs. koffing. how tf u possibly dealin w 3 attacks koffing? ppl may not agree w me that mienfoo should be a+ but cmon u gotta see where im coming from w koffing being the best pokemon in the tier. aint nothing deal w sludge bomb wisp tbolt flamethrower. i think it should heavily considered for a suspect test. genuinely. or at least neutralising gas. do u think a pokemon that is able to render entire abilities useless (a main competent of competitive pokemon) is competitive? hell nah. if u combine that w the ability to basically offensively beat the entire metagame, it's not healthy

n after sum thought, i think mienfoo is broken too. my posts in the viability ranking thread suggested mienfoo should be moved down. but that was only relative to koffing. cuz i think koffing is so so good and think mienfoo has more flaws, and think the s rank should be dedicated to one pokemon. but after sum games n valid points in responses to my argument, i think we shud consider a double suspect test. mienfoo and koffing. both these pokemon are unhealthy for the metagame and means other pokemon cannot flourish.

mienfoo centralises the metagame so much. ur forced to lead wmienfoo. any other pokemon and u are at an immediate disadvantage unless u by rarity using modest inner focus abra but idk why you would decide to handicap urself like that. i miss my metagames with fredom. seeing mienfoo on every team is just rather unfun. and after some valuable insight from other posters within the viability rankings thread, my argument that mienfoo losing speed ties should mean it moves down a rank, should actually be the reason it is no longer in this tier. too centralising. there's also the guessing game you have to play. sometimes hjk inner focus with a choice band can throw you off and make you lose so much momentum.

i ermember back in gen 4, before mienfoo, i used to actually enjoy my teambuilding, i could be creative with my leads. but gen 5, mienfoo was shown into light. and every generation its impact progressively got stronger and stronger. but gen 8 is where i draw the line. this dirty specimen is ruining the tier alongside koffing. 2022 i find myself using foo on every team when i dont want to. why? cuz if i dont use it ik for a fact im finna get clapped. is that healthy to u guys? nah no way

my proposition is either to suspect test mienfoo (along w koffing, or maybe both in close promixity) OR unban vullaby. why unban vullaby? because weak armor makes that it think twice about clicking fake out. what's there to punish a fake out rn in the metagame? absolutely nothing. vullaby was the antidote to a centralised metagame. it patched this metagame up, made mienfoo less broken and centralising as a lead. it gave the metagame more flavour. it also gives us an extra hazard remover which the metagame is missing.

my points from my viability posts still stand, but my perspective done got changed. at 1st it was koffing is the best pokemon in the tier, and the viability rankings shud b reflecting that by moving foo down 1 and koffing up, cuz 1 got more flaws than the other. but after some insight from other ppl, i think both of em need to be suspected. cuz the truth is they're both not healthy. koffing is more unhealthy but it's like asking which is worse rape or murder.

and even if u were to go w the decision to unban vullaby to neutralise foo, i still think koffing should be suspected.

 

[yellowfin]

so after playing against sum players on the ladder n the lc discord i got sum 2 cents bout this meta:

koffing da best pokemon in the tier. none of dat foo or natu bs. koffing. how tf u possibly dealin w 3 attacks koffing? ppl may not agree w me that mienfoo should be a+ but cmon u gotta see where im coming from w koffing being the best pokemon in the tier. aint nothing deal w sludge bomb wisp tbolt flamethrower. i think it should heavily considered for a suspect test. genuinely. or at least neutralising gas. do u think a pokemon that is able to render entire abilities useless (a main competent of competitive pokemon) is competitive? hell nah. if u combine that w the ability to basically offensively beat the entire metagame, it's not healthy

n after sum thought, i think mienfoo is broken too. my posts in the viability ranking thread suggested mienfoo should be moved down. but that was only relative to koffing. cuz i think koffing is so so good and think mienfoo has more flaws, and think the s rank should be dedicated to one pokemon. but after sum games n valid points in responses to my argument, i think we shud consider a double suspect test. mienfoo and koffing. both these pokemon are unhealthy for the metagame and means other pokemon cannot flourish.

mienfoo centralises the metagame so much. ur forced to lead wmienfoo. any other pokemon and u are at an immediate disadvantage unless u by rarity using modest inner focus abra but idk why you would decide to handicap urself like that. i miss my metagames with fredom. seeing mienfoo on every team is just rather unfun. and after some valuable insight from other posters within the viability rankings thread, my argument that mienfoo losing speed ties should mean it moves down a rank, should actually be the reason it is no longer in this tier. too centralising. there's also the guessing game you have to play. sometimes hjk inner focus with a choice band can throw you off and make you lose so much momentum.

i ermember back in gen 4, before mienfoo, i used to actually enjoy my teambuilding, i could be creative with my leads. but gen 5, mienfoo was shown into light. and every generation its impact progressively got stronger and stronger. but gen 8 is where i draw the line. this dirty specimen is ruining the tier alongside koffing. 2022 i find myself using foo on every team when i dont want to. why? cuz if i dont use it ik for a fact im finna get clapped. is that healthy to u guys? nah no way

my proposition is either to suspect test mienfoo (along w koffing, or maybe both in close promixity) OR unban vullaby. why unban vullaby? because weak armor makes that it think twice about clicking fake out. what's there to punish a fake out rn in the metagame? absolutely nothing. vullaby was the antidote to a centralised metagame. it patched this metagame up, made mienfoo less broken and centralising as a lead. it gave the metagame more flavour. it also gives us an extra hazard remover which the metagame is missing.

my points from my viability posts still stand, but my perspective done got changed. at 1st it was koffing is the best pokemon in the tier, and the viability rankings shud b reflecting that by moving foo down 1 and koffing up, cuz 1 got more flaws than the other. but after some insight from other ppl, i think both of em need to be suspected. cuz the truth is they're both not healthy. koffing is more unhealthy but it's like asking which is worse rape or murder.

and even if u were to go w the decision to unban vullaby to neutralise foo, i still think koffing should be suspected.

dude just run a ground type

 

[ZeStinky]

dude just run a ground type

also psychic types, but i will say forcing people to use certain mons can be toxic for a metagame if it is too centralizing (neither mienfoo or koffing are though)

my say on this banning thing, i think mienfoo is the only one up for debate purely cause it can only run 2 sets, which makes it boring as hell to fight AND perpetuates the 17 speed thing

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

also psychic types, but i will say forcing people to use certain mons can be toxic for a metagame if it is too centralizing (neither mienfoo or koffing are though)

my say on this banning thing, i think mienfoo is the only one up for debate purely cause it can only run 2 sets, which makes it boring as hell to fight AND perpetuates the 17 speed thing

Here's a list of Koffing Switchins you can use in teambuilder.

Frillish @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 156 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Drilbur @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

Natu @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 36 SpA / 156 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- U-turn

Porygon @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Def / 156 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

You can access these using the import/export tab in showdown with the corresponding pokemon. (Natu needs a slight spread adjustment, however)
Natu and Drilbur are your more Offensively Oriented options, as both threaten Koffing Offensively and outspeed it. Drilbur can get up Stealth Rock guaranteed, where Natu can Roost off the damage and come in very reliably and gains momentum via U turn.
Frillish and Porygon are more defensively oriented, as they can spread status and both have access to Recover. Their large Special Defense stats allow them to sponge hits very well. Koffing doesn't want to stay in on either (as both are special attackers) and both are hard to break mons.

With all of this said, feel free to experiment around with other ideas and concepts if those mons aren't to your liking. Hope this helps!

 

[wesh papillon]

Here's a list of Koffing Switchins you can use in teambuilder.

Frillish @ Eviolite
Ability: Cursed Body
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 156 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover

Drilbur @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

Natu @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Def / 36 SpA / 156 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- U-turn

Porygon @ Eviolite
Ability: Trace
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Def / 156 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
- Recover

You can access these using the import/export tab in showdown with the corresponding pokemon. (Natu needs a slight spread adjustment, however)
Natu and Drilbur are your more Offensively Oriented options, as both threaten Koffing Offensively and outspeed it. Drilbur can get up Stealth Rock guaranteed, where Natu can Roost off the damage and come in very reliably and gains momentum via U turn.
Frillish and Porygon are more defensively oriented, as they can spread status and both have access to Recover. Their large Special Defense stats allow them to sponge hits very well. Koffing doesn't want to stay in on either (as both are special attackers) and both are hard to break mons.

With all of this said, feel free to experiment around with other ideas and concepts if those mons aren't to your liking. Hope this helps!

u missed lax

2nd line

 

[Eeveeto]

Haven't played this in months, but if you guys really hate Koffing, you can use Sandygast.

Things that Sandygast does:
-Counters Koffing.
-Puts Rocks, Natu can't switch in savely.
-Lives 2 Ponyta's Flare Blitz after Rocks (can heal itself with Shore Up).
-Lives 2 hits from +1 Tyrunt after Rocks (unless it decides to use Crunch).
-Lives 2 hits from +1 Onix.
-Lives 2 Fire Punches from +3 Munchlax (enough time to fish for a Scorching Sands Burn).
-Has a 62,5% to live +6 Magby's Fire Punch after Rocks.
-Always spinblocks Drilbur, unless it uses Toxic, LO, SD or Band.
-Lives 2 EQs from Mudbray.
-Volt switch immunity.
-Walls standart Shellos.
-Immune to 2 of the moves Porygon usually uses.
-As every ghost, just the existance of Sandygast makes Mienfoo reluctant to use HJK.

Of course, I am not going to pretend Sandygast is perfect and the solution to the meta. It has 5 weakness after all, so it can be a liability against common threats like Staryu, Grookey or Ferroseed. It's also a momentum sinker being as passive as it is. Worst of all, it's slow and weak to Knock Off, so you need to build a team with enough absorbers to that spammabke move. However:
-Even when Knocked, Sandygast can't be 2HKOd by Mienfoo, so it has a shot at winning the 1vs1.
-Only LO Pawniard has a small chance to OHKO from full and the damage dealt back by Scorching Sands back is massive.
-Carvanha doesn't OHKO either, even with LO after Rocks. Damage back is again massive.
-With the notable exeptions of Staryu, Morelull and the now almost unexistant Foongus, most of the threats that force Sandygast out don't like risking the 30% burn of Scorching Sands.

So, if you need help vs Koffing without dedicating many slots to it and without using a Mon that does nothing else, go to the beach and build a sand castle. Have a nice Eeveening.