Denied Lord of the Crossing

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Birkal

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This concept by heartofgold was approved for discussion. Is this concept worth pursuing? If so, what questions could we ask? How could we improve this? Everyone is free to discuss the following submission as if this was a concept discussion.

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Name: Lord of the Crossing
“Can you switch? Mayhaps….”

Description: A Pokemon that controls the switching game, punishing and limiting its opponent’s ability to switch out while ensuring greater freedom of movement for itself.

Justification: Switching is one of the most powerful and dangerous tools in Pokemon, and via CAP we have an opportunity to examine its effects and measure its influence. This concept allows us to learn more about the metagame by exploring switching in its own negative, seeing its advantages and strengths in how opponents are hamstrung when their ability to switch is punished or removed. Much like Tomohawk, this concept should also teach us about momentum, and how having the advantage on a switch can grant a player control of the match.

Questions To Be Answered:
  • How does switching, and the abilities and moves that affect the mechanic, confer advantages to both players? Can those advantages be negated or multiplied?
  • By what means can we punish or limit an opponents ability to switch, beyond simply using a trapping ability like Shadow Tag? Which combinations are most effective?
  • How can we ensure that our Pokemon maintains an advantage on switches, when it chooses to leave the battle field?
  • Given how fundamental switching is the to the meta, can a Pokemon that limits an opponent’s ability to do so be truly balanced
Explanation: If you talk to any good Street Fighter player they’ll tell you the most important factor in the game, the thing you absolutely must understand to succeed, is movement and spacing - how the two characters relate to each other in space. I’ve always thought of switching in Pokemon in the same terms. It’s a mechanic that defines the game from the top of Anything Goes to the bottom of Little Cup. To be a good player, you simply must make good switches. By the same token, limiting an opponent’s ability to switch can be devastating. Look at Mega-Gengar’s near-ban in Ubers, and Gothitelle’s use in OU despite its frankly lackluster stats. Even the oh-so-common Stealth Rock was considered broken by a sub-section of players simply because it punishes you for switching - something that's normally a free action. These are just a few examples, and there are countless more, but fundamentally the idea is to force your opponent into a corner where they need to make a bad decision, or trap them in a position they can’t escape. This Pokemon should fundamentally be about just doing that: forcing your opponent into no-win scenarios, trapping them when they’re at a disadvantage, and walking away from every switch with an advantage. As a side note (and as long as this isn’t considered poll-jumping), I want to emphasize that this Concept isn’t a ‘Let’s Make a Shadow Tag Pokemon’. Frankly, we’ve all seen the damage that ability can do, and there’s a variety of moves and abilities that can affect switching that don’t get that level of play (and aren’t on the banned abilities list).
 

nyttyn

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The biggest problem I see with this concept is that switch-blocking moves are simply awful. This is due to a combination of factors:

Low Power
Let's face it, most of the partially trapping moves just suck, damage wise. The most you could say of any of them is that Magma Storm has 100 BP - the rest are simply awful, and 1/8 of max HP per turn is, while not negligible, still not impressive by any means.

Shaky Accuracy
If you want to prevent a swap, you want to prevent a swap. Not spend a turn whiffing. However, most of the wrapping moves all suffer from 85% Accuracy, with Magma Storm having an atrocious 70%, Wrap having a 90%, and Infestation enjoying a 100% accuracy rate.

Bad Mechanics
There's simply not a lot that justifies using a partially trapping move. Putting aside their problems of awful power, the mechanics are simply bad - partially trapping moves only last as long as the user is on the field, and once the user switches out, the effect ends. At its very best, this effect is still considerably worse than U-Turn, which accomplishes much the same (a free swap knowing what your opponent's mon will be), but with the added downsides of A. usually doing less damage, B. having to deal with accuracy issues, and C. taking two turns instead of one, and ensuring the pokemon you switch in always gets hit (a problem that can be somewhat circumvented with U-Turn by making sure the mon you use is slow).

One could argue that you could use a partially trapping move to keep in whatever the opponent switches in, and brutalize it from there, but that is a bad strategy too. If they switch out to something that checks or counters your mon, you're going to switch out anyways, and if they don't switch out, you would have accomplished more in less time simply by flat out attacking.

In addition, these moves also suffered a nerf in gen 6 now that ghosts are no longer affected. This is kind of an issue, given the prevalence of Mega Sableye, as well as the presence of Gengar within the OU tier.


As a result of these issues, I don't see how this concept wouldn't wind up with us being pidgeon-holed into Arena Trap. We already have mechanics that are common and prevalent in OU that can punish switching (Stealth Rocks, Spikes, U-Turn), so the only recourse left to us is to limit switching. And as the only way to limit switching that isn't completely awful (that is also currently CAP legal) is Arena Trap. That is, unless we want to explore concepts (Entry Hazards, Switching Moves) that have already been explored to the death.

Well there's also Parting Shot, which has never really seen use in OU due to a lack of good users, but being pidgeonholed into only two options is hardly better than being pidgeonholed into only one.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
I don't think the concept requires us to use any kind of trapping at all-it's about discouraging switches, not stopping them entirely

so probably u-turn or phazing (poison touch dragon tail holla), or pursuit.

Frankly though what would work great with this is something like a STAB Acid Spray user, where you can switch but you might just take some damage and be at a disadvantage.

Idk not submitting anything specific (well i kinda am) but this could have some applications beyond what you'd think. Then again, i'm not sure-how do you punish something for switching but not staying in? How do you control the switching game? what does that even mean? (guess thats the point of cap?)
 

nyttyn

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This was the exact same problem we had with Einherjar (this very last CAP), actually. Regardless of how 'cool' it sounds to have a concept that capitalizes upon an external force of the game, there are only so many ways mechanics can be played with using our current resources.

For dissuading switching, there's really only so much you can do. Entry Hazards (Stealth Rocks, Spikes, Poison Spikes) have been explored to death over the course of the competitive metagame's existence. Phazing somewhat controls switching, but it's always been and continues to be an integral and common part of defensive play, so it's far from unexplored. Pursuit doesn't dissuade switching - it just ensures your pokemon gets KO'd no matter what you do.

U-turn, Volt Switch, and Parting Shot explore the other side, that is, giving you more control over your switches. However, the first two have been done to death and remain a popular force within the meta even now (hi Landorus-T and Rotom-W). Parting Shot is still a potential option to be explored, but I don't like being forced into a single move just to fulfil a concept.

Controlling switching is only possible via two ways - partially trapping moves, and abilities. I've already gone over why the former suck, and the later only has three avenues - Shadow Tag (Banned), Arena Trap, and Magnet Pull (too niche). Again, I don't want to be forced into a single option - it's bad for the process.
 
While I have some agreements with what nyttyn said about the negative implications the prevention of switching has, I think there are some paths we can take with this Project.

1) Punish those that aren't hurt by switches
Clefable can run Unaware to discourage set-up sweepers, but when it runs Magic Guard, you lose that passive Entry Hazard damage that can help a sweep. We can gear this concept to make something that makes it difficult for the opponent to switch without considering the disadvantage of doing so.
Unfortuneately, this brings me to the ability Analytic, which gives a boost to the user's attack if it goes last. Because this includes switching, it creates the problem of "it's nothing new" (read: creating another Volkraken of sorts), and we'd be stuck making another Pokémon that nukes opponents that switch.

2) Punish opponents that attempt to clear the field of hazards
Yes, I am trying to get broader here. Our focus can be about targetting Spinners and Defoggers, observing their traits and their roles on cores/teams to make it difficult to remove the hazards our created Pokémon/team member put down.
The pitfall to this would be that could just make a Defiant Ghostmon that has some sort of priority or Pursuit. This doesn't sound too exciting either.

3) Give the opponent a reason to switch as soon as possible
I know our concept is aiming at punishing switches and disrupting momentum, but let me explain. In my experience facing DD Mega Altaria, my instinct is to get the closest thing on my team to an Altaria-check out onto the field before it starts building up momentum and OHKO'ing my team with boosted Returns/Frustrations.
Our focus can be along the lines of setting up to force the opponent to switch, or ragequit if he/she doesn't have an effective check alive or present.
Now, I'm not saying we make another DD MAltaria or CM MSlowbro, but what we can do is make a Pokémon that helps these kind of set-up situations. Referring to the previous CAP, we wanted to prevent our opponent from KO'ing our Pokémon because the partner that followed would be able to set up and sweep.
I think in this project, we should try to force our opponent to switch as to not let this created Pokémon gain momentum or help its partner in doing so.

Conversely, we can create a Pokémon that prevents this kind of momentum set up. The reason I don't delve too much into this, in particular, is that we have the method of phazing set-up sweepers. Heck, I've used phazing to rack up passive damage on my opponent through hazards.
The point is, preventing opponent set-up is basic and doesn't seem to teach us much.

In conclusion, I think this is a pretty good concept because there are much more mechanics regarding switching besides phazing and trapping abilities/moves.
Controlling the switching game does NOT have to be about us switching out or phazing opponents. It should really be focusing on manipulating the opponent's view and mindset on his/her switching and the timing it requires.
 
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I know from experience that the most effective way to make the opponent not able to switch in a counter is using a phazing move - ideally, I would want the Pokémon to be able to do significant damage with Dragon Tail or Circle Throw to Pokémon that would otherwise counter it, while having little to no options to deal with them otherwise. There also needs to be a way for this CAP to threaten Ghosts and/or Fairies so it isn't stopped cold when one of them absorbs the phazing move.

Ghosts being immune to trapping highly limits the ability to keep an opponent stuck, even then, having to use a move to trap will generally allow a counter/check to switch in, which will force our CAP out.

Shadow Tag is just plain ridiculous - if your opponent has it, you basically can't use anything that is weak to the ST user as it is easily trapped and KOed. It's far too broken to work with and makes otherwise bad Pokémon OU/BL while making strong ones Ubers.
 

Ununhexium

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I mostly see this concept as punishing the foe for switching. Which is cool. I envision this most like a utility attacker in that it doesn't really wallbreak or sweep, but it has functions that allow it to control the switch game. In my opinion, the best way to make this work is through the use of Pursuit and U-turn (maybe even supporting moves like Encore or Stealth Rock, or if we want to have some fun, we can throw Sucker Punch into the mix for some serious mindgames). This punishes the opponent for switching in two ways: either they take major damage from switching (Pursuit) or they lose valuable momentum and matchups because of the fact that they switched (U-turn).
 

Woodchuck

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I like the idea of phazing moves, but I think they can become more potent if we combine them with a trapping move. The biggest problem with trapping moves is that more often than not they're going to trap a counter to your own Pokemon. Your opponent can simply switch in something else and eat the weak-ass Fire Spin or Spider Web or whatever.
But let's give that Pokemon Dragon Tail/Circle Throw, and some useful setup move -- Spikes, for example. Now we have a mind-game. If the opponent switches to a counter to avoid getting trapped, they may end up eating a Dragon Tail on the switch, racking up more hazard damage. But if they fail to switch in a counter, you can threaten to Spider Web / other trapping move and set up Spikes freely. I think this is a potential play-style that would suit the concept well and actually be effective without being broken or needing Arena Trap / Shadow Tag.
 
I like the idea of phazing moves, but I think they can become more potent if we combine them with a trapping move. The biggest problem with trapping moves is that more often than not they're going to trap a counter to your own Pokemon. Your opponent can simply switch in something else and eat the weak-ass Fire Spin or Spider Web or whatever.
But let's give that Pokemon Dragon Tail/Circle Throw, and some useful setup move -- Spikes, for example. Now we have a mind-game. If the opponent switches to a counter to avoid getting trapped, they may end up eating a Dragon Tail on the switch, racking up more hazard damage. But if they fail to switch in a counter, you can threaten to Spider Web / other trapping move and set up Spikes freely. I think this is a potential play-style that would suit the concept well and actually be effective.
I think this is an interesting style you are putting forward; combining phazing attacks (i.e. not Roar/Whirlwind), trapping moves such Fire Spin or Spider Web and entry hazards such as Spikes and Stealth Rock to pressure to try and pressure the opponent into switching into something the CAP can trap.
However, I feel there are a few holes in this strategy:
- Dragon Tail and Circle Throw have negative priority, so it leaves the CAP open to being hit, unless it does so on the switch, which in itself a risk.
- I believe trapping moves can be rendered useless by VoltTurn.
- Dragon Tail and Circle Throw can be blocked by Fairies and Ghosts, respectively.
- But most of all, Dragon Tail and Circle Throw are random, so you might phaze a counter and bring in another counter.

Whether or not having holes is good bc it stops it from being broken or not, I don't know, but it does sound rather gimmicky.
 
I think this is an interesting style you are putting forward; combining phazing attacks (i.e. not Roar/Whirlwind), trapping moves such Fire Spin or Spider Web and entry hazards such as Spikes and Stealth Rock to pressure to try and pressure the opponent into switching into something the CAP can trap.
However, I feel there are a few holes in this strategy:
- Dragon Tail and Circle Throw have negative priority, so it leaves the CAP open to being hit, unless it does so on the switch, which in itself a risk.
- I believe trapping moves can be rendered useless by VoltTurn.
- Dragon Tail and Circle Throw can be blocked by Fairies and Ghosts, respectively.
- But most of all, Dragon Tail and Circle Throw are random, so you might phaze a counter and bring in another counter.

Whether or not having holes is good bc it stops it from being broken or not, I don't know, but it does sound rather gimmicky.
A few ways to patch up these weakspots:
- A reasonably bulky CAP will be able to tank hits from non-counters decently well and should be countered by Pokémon weak to those phazing moves, meaning you put yourself at risk trying to hit it. Analytic/Technician makes those moves hit harder and No Guard/Compoundeyes can deal with these having only 90% accuracy.
- Nothing much to be done about that.
- A coverage move to hit those should be able to add mindgames to these - preferably not Bullet Punch or Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch so we have to take a hit when staying in.
- This keeps the CAP from being impossible to counter.
 

nyttyn

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O k so you have a set that looks like

Phasing Move
Trapping Move

That leaves you with two slots open. If you're attempting to do a strat as repeatedly spammed as phasing over and over, you'll need roost/recover/etc in the third slot. That leaves you with...what, STAB in the fourth slot? Unless anything is actually silly enough to think we can get away with a phasing move without recovery, or suggests we should have a entry hazard or other supporting move instead of an actual attack (no, the phazing move is not the main attack, that completely defeats the purpose of trapping the opponent in the first place). Would YOU want a pokemon that's only capable of coming in and attempting to spam phasing moves until the opponent is stupid enough to leave in the mon of choice, in which case why not click on the STAB button to begin with? On top of that, how would this pokemon intend to stay alive for long enough to pull off this strat in this meta of superpowerful threats like Mega Metagross to be able to spam the phase button long enough to trap the mon you want?


Pursuit and U-turn might work but that's not really anything we haven't seen before (hello Scizor).
 

Jukain

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The only reason that Magma Storm Heatran really works in OU is surprise factor and that Heatran is already a relatively difficult Pokemon to switch into, so in many instances it's not that difficult to catch Heatran's answers off-guard. Heatran also has a lot more than trapping to offer and is a very good Pokemon with lots of other utility. A Pokemon based around this idea of a trapping kills the whole reason trapping like this works which is luring the opponent, which won't be a factor when it's expected. Unless you give this Pokemon a lot of other utility, in which case it probably won't even run the partial trapping move, it probably won't be a very choice for teams, either.
 
I think that using an ability such as Arena Trap and Shadow Tag may lead to some new strategies that maybe haven't been explored very much. I believe that this would be an interesting area that we could experiment with as there are very little pokemon that utilize these abilities - or even other area trapping moves as well. Maybe a pokemon whose main purpose is to whittle away at the opposing pokemon's health - think toxic or will-o-wisp - while they're trapped. Or this might even be a good chance to have a sleep-eater strategy. Personally, I think we could have a lot of fun with this concept. HOWEVER, the main issue with this is expectancy. Having a pokemon that's main purpose is to discourage switching, people are going to know the pokemon's weaknesses and will capitalize on it because the most it'll be able to do is well trap it. Effectivly making the pokemon to be some sort of staler just to protect itself.
 
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ginganinja

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I like this because Birkal was kinda sorta open to the idea of allowing the potential for discussing Shadow Tag being allowed for this concept and I love Shadow Tag mons even if they are borderline broken.
 

nyttyn

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If we allow Shadow Tag, that would definitely make this Shadow Tag; The Mon. I don't actually think that's a bad thing, however, as Shadow Tag is actually a very hot topic in OU right now. Exploring it would definitely be relevant, and would help answer some questions/give some insight for a potential future shadow tag suspect, perhaps. So I'd definitely be on board with it, though I think in that case the concept should be explicitly edited to be Shadow Tag the mon because every other form of trapping kind of sucks.
 
If this is "Shadow Tag; The Mon", where are we going to go with it that hasn't been done before?
When Shadow Tag is given a good movepool and stats, it becomes broken, as we saw with M-Gengar.
When you give it mediocre stats, it becomes Gothitelle.

The challenge with making a trapping mon would be to create something that isn't broken like M-Gengar was, but not a Goth copy either.
Having said that, however, I don't think that is what heartofgold intended when he made the concept, shown clearly in his concept submission. He specifically intended for something that punishes switching in a new way, or at least, not a traditional trapper. Well, that's what I think he meant anyway.
 

ginganinja

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This Pokemon should fundamentally be about just doing that: forcing your opponent into no-win scenarios, trapping them when they’re at a disadvantage, and walking away from every switch with an advantage.
I just want to point out that this is done by good play, NOT by a single pokemon. Take Mega Rayquaza, that ended up putting your opponent into a non win scenario, and putting them in a disadvantage pretty much the entire game. I don't really get how he dislikes Shadow Tag so much because "its OP", and then is pro concept towards everything that Shadow Tag does :(
 
Honestly, my issue with Shadow Tag wasn't that it was overpowered, but rather than it would be pigeonholing the CAP in the same way that's somewhat hamstrung previous concepts, and in the same way that nyttyn argued something like Infestation would. Admittedly, it's a far better ability to be stuck with, but it's still limiting to whole CAP process. I'd be happy to drop that last line, to be honest - as has been mentioned, the entire concept IS really pro-Shadow Tag, and I'm up to consider it. I honestly just didn't want the whole discussion to turn into an in-depth analysis of an ability that's on the Banned list and wasn't, ultimately, going to be an option. If it's being put on the table, then by all means let's consider it.
 
I think a way to dampen the broken nature of Shadow Tag, we would do something with a good move-pool that runs Arena Trap. That way, there can be ways around the would be broken pokemon. Just a thought, there are definitely a few problems that come along with that.
 
Unfortunately, there are quite a lot of ungrounded Pokemon in OU, with Levitate threats such as Gengar, Rotom-W and Latias, as well as Flying types, as Lando-T, Lando-I, Skarm, Mandi, Zapdos etc. These Pokemon aren't affected by Arena Trap and therefore a decent amount of Pokemon, including a few walls which are usually the focus of trappers due to their lowered offensive presence, are impartial to this Pokemon's trapping.

In addition, trapping abilities can be negated by VoltTurn and Baton Pass. This, among other things, means that I think Shadow Tag is sorta against the concept. let's look at it word for word:

A Pokemon that controls the switching game, punishing and limiting its opponent’s ability to switch out while ensuring greater freedom of movement for itself.
Shadow Tag/Arena Tag doesn't punish switches, nor limit them, just flat out stops them (not limiting because limiting suggests that it is not being completed stopped). Therefore, I think the mentatility of "trapper mon" is actually anti-concept, and one that we ought to move away from.

Having said that, I think we should be careful not to make it too gimicky, as earlier attempts have been, nor too generic or anti-discussion. What I mean by the latter is that, as people have suggested on irc, this concept should not be so obvious in its aproach that we can flat out say at this stage: "It'll be a Pursuit trapper" etc. etc. I've forgot what the original comment was, but the point is that this concept is seen as a bit one-dimensional, and we should be careful to pursue it in a way that encourages discussion, while still making sure it isn't too gimicky.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
It punishes you switching into the trapped mon by double switching into it

I have to agree with pigeonholing; we could do a phazing approach, which is how I feel this should go, but if not it's just 'trapping ability', which limits the ability to a great degree. Also, fuck trapping, seriously, trapping is stupid enough with Gamefreak's haphazard approach to this stuff, how much worse will it be with us? "balanced"? Maybe, but you never know what'll happen; one of Gothi's worst sets is Rest / Calm Mind / Trick / Psychic, which just goes to show the kind of stupid shit trappers can do while maintaining effectiveness, and how you can't see it coming. Even if we don't create a monster on purpose, it might happen on accident.

By the way, about trapping moves like Infestation, etc. Like Jukain said, it mostly works because you don't see it coming, which would only work with the CAP if we made it really good in other ways, which...firstly would be weird, and secondly, people might expect it anyhow just thanks to the concept. On top of that, this strategy has only ever worked with Heatran, who conveniently has the only trapping move above...35 BP, in fact clocking in at a nice round 100 BP. Would Heatran even be used as such a trapper if it didn't have its shiny signature move and was forced to rely on Fire Spin? Maybe it'd be a neat set in OO, I don't know, it does trap certain shit really hard, but it's kinda down a moveslot in most situations. By the way, since it's a signature move, I don't know if it would / should be given to the CAP (Not 100% if that's allowed or not, but still.)

I guess the best way to go forward is to keep all three of these, as well as u-turn and pursuit, in mind, and see what turns up. We're the ones pigeonholing ourselves tbh. (then again, maybe some of these approaches aren't worth doing at all, which is the problem? that sounds like qc team's decision though)
 

Qwilphish

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This concept has been dead for about a month so I think it is time to reevaluate.

The course of this discussion has led to several possible ways that this concept can go including:
1. Trapping Moves
2. Phazing / Momentum Moves (e.g. U-Turn) + Hazards
3. Trapping Ability

Trapping moves are ineffective by themselves and are only used as surprise sets. There is a reason why literally no* pokemon's main set which utilizes a trapping move and that is because of the reasons nyttyn outlined above. For the sake of argument a pokemon which relies on trapping moves to limit the opponent's switching would need high speed and a momentum move to operate. Against offensive teams this Pokemon would use the trapping moves for its residual damage to wear down the opponent effects and to make sure that the opponent cannot keep its momentum by switching into a counter with no risk of counterplay. Against defensive team, the trapping move would again be valued for its consistent damage output and perhaps even a lure set or simply switching to a Pokemon which can take on the opponent.

Honestly, I began writing this thinking that trapping moves would be a terrible idea for this concept, however if we give this CAP the right tools we can see trapping moves become a powerful weapon against many team archetypes. The 1/8 damage at the end of each turn that the trapper is on the field can be deadly for offensive teams and is honestly not bad damage against defensive teams either.

Onto Hazards + Momentum of choice: We can already see extremely effective versions of Hazards + Phazing with Skarmory being able to wall physically offensive threats and wearing down grounded foes in the process with Spikes and even the recent TankChomp using Stealth Rock + Dragon Tail and its variety of residual damage utilities to do the same job. However, there are not many Pokemon with Spikes + Momentum move. The only ones that pops into my head at the moment is Forretress with its access to Volt Switch and Celebi with SR + BP or U-Turn. Because the first route of this option is already seen in the current metagame, I would rather explore the second route. This option could only be especially effective with Spikes imo as this hazard 1. Has limited distribution thus is fairly rare and underprepared for outside of common hazard control 2. Punishes pokemon which like to take a Volt Switch (Ground types not named Lando-T) or U-Turn (Steels) or both! (#1 enemy Excadrill) and 3. Momentum moves punish Defoggers (the biggest threat to Spikes since most are immune to the hazard)

The choice between Offensive and Defensive is difficult but I believe that Defensive would be better on this route from looking at Pokemon who have performed similar roles in OU. We see offensive SR setters all the time in OU from SD Leadchomp to SashTerrak but these leads do not aim to keep momentum by the use of the aforementioned moves. Greninja was perhaps the best example of an Offensive example of this concept. I believe it was towards the end of XY that Spikes Greninja was incredibly popular for its ability to wear down its counters such as Chansey (and for its surprise immunity to T-Wave but that's not important lol). The next best thing of an offensive Spikes user would be Diggersby which is not easy to pull off due to its low speed and bulk and the fact that it cannot punish its counter and set-up Spikes at the same time (Skarm since it is likely not running Wild Charge + Spikes). Therefore for an offensive Spikes + Momentum user to work it would need to be able to punish its switch ins either through a move or the hazard itself.

Defensively gives this concept a lot more leeway in terms of controlling the power level and speed. A slow U-Turn is one of the most coveted things in the OU metagame as it allows for you to being in a threat for free. Adding in Hazards to the mix and the opponent's switching game will be put into a no-win scenario. Overall, I think that this route is the safer of the two routes due to its inherit pros and team utility.

I'm not going to spend much time on the third option because I simply do not think that it is necessary for this concept to work. The shadow tag debate has died down for now so if that is the only way that people think this concept would work, now is not the time to explore the ability.

That's my take on this concept, I like it but I would like more discussion before I +1 it.
 

Deck Knight

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In prior generations this concept might have been an issue for the simple reason that trapping moves were unreliable. This generation, however, has Infestation. Not only is Infestation 100% accurate, it also has no type or ability immunities. Since the object of the trapping move is residual damage, the following exercise isn't going to include Mean Look or Block.

Here is a listing of all the Pokemon that have both a partial trapping move and a switchout move, followed by a list with a trapping move and Baton Pass:
http://tinyurl.com/trapswitch
http://tinyurl.com/trapbp

The only additions because of prior gen special moves are Flareon (Fire Spin + BP) and Vaporeon (Whirlpool + BP). Also it isn't listing Forretress (Sand Tomb + Volt Switch) for some reason, but it exists.

Anyway, if you look over the list, you can see the major issue is that the vast majority of Pokemon that could utilize this strategy are fast, frail attackers rather than defensive Pokemon. The few exceptions (ex: Vaporeon, Gliscor) have their own drawbacks or more attractive options, and also have the issue that types or abilities are immune to their trapping moves.

So a slow, defensive partial trapper and VoltTurn Pokemon doesn't actually exist, and the closest things to it (Vaporeon, Forretress) have a mismatch of typing, stats, and superior options that make the strategy unfavorable. Therefore this niche is unique, as of yet unexplored, and has no effective parallel.
 

nyttyn

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the problem is that trapping moves, no matter how good they are, will always suffer the issue of simply not being powerful enough to justify their use from a move:turn cost standpoint. (except magma storm that one time but magma storm's accuracy is legit way too shaky to rely upon) just because a niche is unexplored doesn't mean it's any good, even at its theoretical maximum.

think about when you want to use a trapping move - to keep in something that's ideal to face with your current pokemon. trapping moves face the current, insurmountable issue that switching out outprioritizes every single one of them. unlike shadow tag or magnet pull, which just simply takes place as soon as the mon is swapped in (unless double switch shenanagins), trapping moves give your opponent a turn to swap out (which, if it's an unfavorable matchup, they will 99% likely do so unless they want to sac or they're a moron). and at that point you're banking on them making the ballsy play and switching in something your pokemon can abuse. at which point it would have been simply more effective to attack/burn or w/e to cripple or outright KO the predicted favorable switchin instead of messing around with trapping. and that's the very best case scenario. more likely is that they switch in something that manhandles your pokemon, you look like a idiot for wasting a move on infestation, and you lose momentum. and infestation does like 20 BP bug and 1/8 hp damage which is incredibly pathetic, if residual damage is your goal you'd be way better off using scald, toxic, or even will-o-wisp.


unless you want to make something like that one mean look setup set in adv but that has about the same chance of working in ORAS as a meme has not being beat to death once the internet is done with it.


1/2 declined

[14:44] <%ginganinja> also Lord of the Corssing is 2/2
[14:45] <%ginganinja> cos I'm denying it if Shadow Tag is off the table
 
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