Little Cup Viability Rankings

[Delver]

I'd like some discussion on elgyem. Its got some decent bulk and a respectable Special attack and the offensive move pool to back it up. The only negatives too it are its mono-psychic typing (which is arguably one of the worst mono types in the game) and its poor speed. Its psychic typing does act as a cushion against fighters though, and its poor speed does basically garuntee your Analytic boosts, which basically means a free Life Orb while still holding Eviolite. Missy and Murkrow can both wreck its shit no problem (though a list of what they cant is much shorter) but they cant safely switch in with the correct coverage moves:

Poorly Displayed Calcs

240SpAtk Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Shadow Ball vs 36HP/80SpDef Eviolite Levitate lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral): 52% - 69% (12 - 16 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Standard Elgyem vs Defensive Missy

240SpAtk Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Shadow Ball vs 0HP/0SpDef Eviolite Levitate lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral): 63% - 81% (14 - 18 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Standard Elgyem vs Offensive Missy

240SpAtk Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Thunderbolt vs 0HP/0SpDef lvl 5 Murkrow (-SpDef): 163% - 200% (36 - 44 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. Standard Elgyem vs Mixkrow (Naive - Hasty is still a OHKO)

240SpAtk Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Thunderbolt vs 36HP/20SpDef lvl 5 Murkrow (Neutral): 139% - 165% (32 - 38 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. Standard Elgyem vs Subroost w/ Life Orb

240SpAtk Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Thunderbolt vs 36HP/20SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Murkrow (Neutral): 95% - 113% (22 - 26 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 75% chance to OHKO. Standard elgyem vs Subroost w/eviolite

From my experiences with it, the hardest part about running elgyem is getting it in safely because of how contrasting it tends to be with current play styles. I defintely think its a C+ mon though.

Anyways, I'd like to explain why I dislike Snover for S in this post cause i promised i would last night and enough people posted inbetween that editing that post isnt necessary. THe more i thought of it though, the less i convinced myself this is a valid reason for it not to be S, so take it how you will, this is just my $0.02 on the matter. Snovers popularity is a direct result of the current metgames status. If Sandbased offensive teams werent so deadly, Snover wouldnt be used as much. Period. Snover also acts as a decent murkrow check. Which is also used on like every team. So with one slot, you're simultaneously checking one of the most dangerous pokemon in the teir as well as one of the most consistent strategies in the teir. he also has some other uses, like checking chinchou who is rising in popularity again and etc, but other grass types can do that as well. So my intial thought with this was "if the meta wasnt the way it was, snover would not be used," using Round 5 (when i was most active) as a point of reference. Checking those links myself, i was surprised to see ts only ~9 spots and 5% usage seperating them over the two+ years.

Long story short, this is a list of things that are good in the *current* meta, and I can wine how if there wasnt any sand, snover wouldnt be used at all, but the current meta has sand, and snover has other uses so I just convinced my self that yeeah sure Snover for S


Also everyone thank corkscrew for the list of unlisted<3

 

[viashinomage]

well the thing about snover is that there is no "hail team" because hail sweepers and stallers flat out suck. snover is honest to goodness just on teams to counter certain mons and strategies. the fact that snover has a 100% blizzard doesn't hurt either. so while hippo relies on his sand allies to do well, snover doesn't. hippo is made by his team whereas snover is one of those pokemon that can make a team work. even without sand strategies or krow or chinchou, i firmly believe that people would still find reason to use snover

 

[Delver]

well the thing about snover is that there is no "hail team" because hail sweepers and stallers flat out suck. snover is honest to goodness just on teams to counter certain mons and strategies. the fact that snover has a 100% blizzard doesn't hurt either. so while hippo relies on his sand allies to do well, snover doesn't. hippo is made by his team whereas snover is one of those pokemon that can make a team work. even without sand strategies or krow or chinchou, i firmly believe that people would still find reason to use snover

What i bolded was a point I was trying to get across during the original ranking of hippo. a lot of people were like "drilburs only good cause of sand" when he was ranked S and used that as a logic for hippo to be where he is. In reality its more of "Sand is only good because of Drilbur

regardless, I wanted to talk about pory too. uhh yeah. iss makes a really good point about its walling capabilities, and thats just one set. It acts as a decent Drilbur check with a scarf and has one of the best abilities in the game in Trace (considering its *all* the abilities in the game). it also has an 18 (neutal full investment) special attack which pokes big holes in things. I think being able to wall the majority of the meta while still retaining enough flexability to run other sets is enogh to push pory to s

 

[Rowan]

Eh, I was going to post about Snover being A but Delver's post might have actually convinced me to put it in S. Blizzard spam makes it a really threatening wallbreaker that can rip holes early game and sweep late game. The only thing that threatens it massively is Stealth Rock and Pursuit Pawniard. One is dealt with with Rapid Spin whilst the other is 2hkod by HP fire + hail. Otherwise when a counter switches in you have probably weakened them slightly with Blizzard and then you can switch out until the opponent is weak enough to clean late game. The main thing that sets Snover apart from others is that its counter (steel+fire types) don't have access to reliable recovery. Bronzor/Magnemite/Pawniard have no way to heal (except loloranrecycle) and ponyta + larvesta's morning sun is crippled under hail. S Tier.

I'm gonna think about Porygon some more before posting on it but I will at some point :)

 

[Superpowerdude]

Agreeing with Iss S RANK FOR PORYGON

As Iss mentioned it walls pretty much everything in the tier that is not Fighting-type. Unlike other defensive Pokemon like Bronzor, Porygon has a) reliable recovery b) frightening special attack even uninvested making Porygon not set-up bait. This special attack is backed up by great moves such as Tri Attack, Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball and Ice Beam. Another thing I must mention about Porygon is emphasise how good of an ability Trace is. Think about common things that Porygon switches into: Murkrow (Trace Prankster and gain priority Thunder Wave and Recover), Misdreavus (Trace Levitate which can be quite useful vs Drilbur although this scenario may be rare), Abra (Trace Magic Gaurd which is extrenely good because it Protects Porygon from a common method to beatdown walls, by using Toxic to cripple them. Being immune to hail and sand is also cool), Chinchou (Trace Volt Absorb lets you prevent the opponents Chinchou from gaining Momentum with Volt Switch while healing your health. Houndour (Trace Flash Fire lets you wall this thing so easy) Another awesome thing about Trace is that opponents often try and use their Mienfoo as a counter to Porygon which doesn't always work. For example they risk geting Thunderwaved switching in and even if the opponent switches in Mienfoo while you switch in Porygon, you would of traced Regenerator letting you switch out and regain health.

Also NOMINATING SHROOMISH TO MOVE TO B

C is just to low, you may say "but spd! Its outclassed by Foongus who resists Fighting and has Regenarator." This may be true in a way, but Shroomish has other qualities which make it better in certain situations. Firstly Shroomish is a much more reliable sand check living Drilburs unboosted X-Scissors while Foongus can faint to a +2 Earthquake. Sure it has no regenerator but given how common sand and bulky waters are, Giga Drain is often enough to keep Shroomish around. Also if Shroomish switches in to a Toxic, It becomes nearly impossible to takedown with its bulk and 1/8 HP recover per turn. Shroomish can single handedly threaten sand teams severly and even has something for the common sand Pokemon Lileep who is crippled by Spore.

 

[Electrolyte]

I still heavily support Snover for S tier. So what if it only has one niche; it's the best Sand counter by a longshot and absolutely wrecks Hippo and other Sand sweepers. It only has one niche but it is extremely good at it- and it's not as if "that one thing it does" is all that small either. Sand is a powerful force if unchecked, but Snover basically erases that threat for nearly every team with only a need of occasional spin support. It doesn't only wall Sand, it also turns the table and cripples it, making it super easy for any team carrying a Snover to beat common Sand teams. Being only good at one thing is not a bad thing at all- especially in this case, where that one thing has huge merit and Snover is the best Pokemon for the job.

With the rise of Snover, I would also like to see Drilbur fall back down to A+. Half a year ago, Drilbur may have been a massive threat as few people ran Snover or adequate Grass-type defenses to counter it. Nowadays, Snover has become much more popular, Sand is less common, and Grass-types that totally counter Drilbur are also very common. As people on the lower ends of the ladder have been improving, Drilbur simply hasn't been as good as it used to be lately. It's still really threatening and powerful if unchecked in Sand, but there are just too many checks / counters to it now- I don't even really have to consider Drilbur nearly as much as the other three S tier Pokemon when I teambuild. A+ is still really good, which is what Mold Breaker Drilbur is, but I just don't feel as if it's S tier anymore.

If you're still not convinced, think- when was the last time YOU get swept by Sand Rush Drilbur?



There's one thing I'd like to add. Snover and Sand seem to have a predator / prey relationship. Drilbur's usage used to be really high, and to counteract that, people have begun to check it like crazy, causing Snover's usage to rise. That has caused Sand's usage to fall as its counters become more and more popular. We are at this stage. In the future, we may see the continued fall of Sand but perhaps also of Hail, as Hail will lose its niche of countering Sand which will then no longer be popular. When Hail falls, Sand might have the chance to rise again, and this cycle will continue. This cycle is similar to that of Scraggy cycle we saw about a year ago.

This means that the viability of Snover and Drilbur will vary in time. The metagameitself hasn't changed much, and the only reason why viabilities are changing is because of the shifting in usage of certain Pokemon. Because the use of Snover to counter Sand is becoming a popular strategy, Sand and Drilbur have begun to lose their viability.

 

[apt-get]

@SPD
Actually, Porygon is pretty Setup Bait. Scraggy, the most common setup sweeper, can just setup all over it or use knock off to either cripple Porygon or the Mienfoo switch-in. Pawniard, the second most common, doesn't really fear thunder wave thanks to Sucker Punch, and resists both Tri Attack and Shadow Ball.

Nominating Snover for S-Rank

That tree just hits so hard with Blizzard and can threaten about every single 'mon in the meta. Yes, even defensive behemoths like Bronzor and Ferroseed, as they have no reliable recovery. I find LO murkrow + Scarf Snover to be a really effective core, as Murkrow lures in steels for a surprise heat wave for Snover to clean the game later. Murkrow can also use Brave Bird to decimate fire-types, hitting the most common one, Larvesta, for super-effective damage. Snover also has a pretty good defensive typing, allowing it to sometimes come in on an Earthquake/Hydro Pump and wreck things. The eviolite set is excellent as well, acting as a bulky sponge that can deal even harder hits than the scarf version thanks to a +SpA nature.

I find that relegating Snover to S-Rank simply because of sand is kinda stupid because it can do much, much more.

 

[Delver]

I still heavily support Snover for S tier. So what if it only has one niche; it's the best Sand counter by a longshot and absolutely wrecks Hippo and other Sand sweepers. It only has one niche but it is extremely good at it- and it's not as if "that one thing it does" is all that small either. Sand is a powerful force if unchecked, but Snover basically erases that threat for nearly every team with only a need of occasional spin support. It doesn't only wall Sand, it also turns the table and cripples it, making it super easy for any team carrying a Snover to beat common Sand teams. Being only good at one thing is not a bad thing at all- especially in this case, where that one thing has huge merit and Snover is the best Pokemon for the job.

With the rise of Snover, I would also like to see Drilbur fall back down to A+. Half a year ago, Drilbur may have been a massive threat as few people ran Snover or adequate Grass-type defenses to counter it. Nowadays, Snover has become much more popular, Sand is less common, and Grass-types that totally counter Drilbur are also very common. As people on the lower ends of the ladder have been improving, Drilbur simply hasn't been as good as it used to be lately. It's still really threatening and powerful if unchecked in Sand, but there are just too many checks / counters to it now- I don't even really have to consider Drilbur nearly as much as the other three S tier Pokemon when I teambuild. A+ is still really good, which is what Mold Breaker Drilbur is, but I just don't feel as if it's S tier anymore.

If you're still not convinced, think- when was the last time YOU get swept by Sand Rush Drilbur?



There's one thing I'd like to add. Snover and Sand seem to have a predator / prey relationship. Drilbur's usage used to be really high, and to counteract that, people have begun to check it like crazy, causing Snover's usage to rise. That has caused Sand's usage to fall as its counters become more and more popular. We are at this stage. In the future, we may see the continued fall of Sand but perhaps also of Hail, as Hail will lose its niche of countering Sand which will then no longer be popular. When Hail falls, Sand might have the chance to rise again, and this cycle will continue. This cycle is similar to that of Scraggy cycle we saw about a year ago.

This means that the viability of Snover and Drilbur will vary in time. The metagameitself hasn't changed much, and the only reason why viabilities are changing is because of the shifting in usage of certain Pokemon. Because the use of Snover to counter Sand is becoming a popular strategy, Sand and Drilbur have begun to lose their viability.

Disclaimer this is mostly metagame discussion, but ti makes a point somewhere i swear

I disagree with your cycles theory. there are major differences between what I'll be referring to as the hail cycle (Hcycle) and Scraggy cycle (Scycle). Before I continue I'd just like to confirm that this cycling is both healthy for a metagame (by the very definition of metagame) and has happened in the past and your discription of it is spot on. Scraggy and snover are similar in that they both bring a fairly one dimensional function. Scraggy's was sweeping and snover's was stopping drilbur from shitting all over your babies. This results in, as you said, a cycle. in the case of the Scycle, scraggy usage goes up, so by contrast, scraggy checks go up. Soon any competatively viable team has 3+ scraggy checks *by accident*. Scraggy usage goes down, and people realize "I dont have to use this shit anymore' and scraggy check usage thins. That step is where the maor differnce between teh Scycle and Hcycle occur. Where as people during the Scycle realized "oh hey, i dont have to run Max D mienfoo anymore" those in the Hcycle are like "oh yeah snover's absurdly good and also insures my team, may as well keep it." Personally, i think this stems from the roles the mons play. Where scraggy is a (very) one dimensional sweeper, Snover's scarf set provides a lot of utility removal for a team.

This goes back to one of my previous posts where i mention how Snover does a bunch of other stuff (ie check krow, chou, etc) that are fairly common in addition to completely shutting down Sand. One such thing is bringing hail, which helps offensive teams via residual damage and can very often turn 2hko's into 1hkos, and helps defensive teams with lots of healing out last an opponent. its 21 speed stat provides a team with an immediate "oh shit plan b" for any non-(Speed)boosted threat, especially with a 100% ccurate, base 180, nearly unresisted stab in Blizzard coupled with Giga Drain to increase its logevity as well as check staryu and chinchou.

Before this gets too rambly, what im getting at is that Snover does a lot of shit despite a relatively simple role where as scraggy did only one thing and did it absurdly well. But its because of snover's broader uses than just checking sand that i think will make it S teir, and will actually prevent an Hcycle from occuring. Why stop using snover? Sand is still as threatening as it was before, if less common. Murkrows are everywhere, and by extension, chinchous. few things enjoy a blizzard to the face, etc.

Lastly, I'd like to touch on Drilbur, because you brought it up. I don't think drilbur should move. It wrecks teams all by itself an all it needs is sand to be up. If you're running a Drilbur based team, you should have answers to snover. More grass types being popular don't mean anything other than now my main sweeper needs to run X-scissor or Return over Rapid Spin (just a by the way, drilbur has the luxury of running support moves on its sweeper set because its just too damn strong). Drilbur is just as big a threat as it was earlier this round, just because people are using snover out the butt doesnt change that. However, it wasnt drilbur's sweeping prowess that put it to S teir, else Scraggy would be right there with it. We ultimately decided scraggy was A teir because too many checks resided on most teams, often by accident. This was mostly due to the inclusion of murkrow, as now teams ran murkrow + Fighting of choice which gives them an immediate 2 checks in most situations. So following a similiar logic, drilbur, who now has to fight gallons of snovers in addition to a stupid ass mushroom, should face the same fate. This leaves out a quitessential part of drilbur in its supprot set. Its one of the few spinners that can also set up rocks in the teir, and the only one that can do so while maintaining an offensive pressence. Mold Breaker allows the (now queen of LC) missy to get hit by an earthquake, which is huuuuge. The debate for scraggy for S/A was litterally pages long with a final decision of "top of A" I think drilbur is in the same exact position as Scraggy was then, only he has other things besides a sweeper set to push him over that edge and keep him as part of S

 

[Mulan15262]

I vote Purrloin for D-Rank. It can remove pokemon 4x weak to fight, powerful, frail physical powerhouses, and a few frail psychics like Abra.

It has unburden and fake out, enabling it to hit 32 speed after using fake out if it is holding a normal gem, making it tie with adamant sand rush drilbur in sandstorm if purrlion has a neutral nature or outspeed if it has a positive nature. It always moves before sand rush sandshrew. It also speed ties with swift swim Horsea, Tympole, Surskit, and Finneon in the rain, while outpacing Kabuto, Mantyke, Omanyte, and Lotad. Against Omanyte, it 2HKOs with Hidden Power Fight, always OHKOing after shell smash with Hidden Power Fight, or sometimes OHKOing with foul play after a shell smash.

So, in short, Purrloin is a pokemon with few uses, but it can hit a high 34 speed after Unburden. Also, it has the 5th fastest fake out there is.

 

[Wobbyble]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte
I still heavily support Snover for S tier. So what if it only has one niche; it's the best Sand counter by a longshot and absolutely wrecks Hippo and other Sand sweepers. It only has one niche but it is extremely good at it- and it's not as if "that one thing it does" is all that small either. Sand is a powerful force if unchecked, but Snover basically erases that threat for nearly every team with only a need of occasional spin support. It doesn't only wall Sand, it also turns the table and cripples it, making it super easy for any team carrying a Snover to beat common Sand teams. Being only good at one thing is not a bad thing at all- especially in this case, where that one thing has huge merit and Snover is the best Pokemon for the job.

With the rise of Snover, I would also like to see Drilbur fall back down to A+. Half a year ago, Drilbur may have been a massive threat as few people ran Snover or adequate Grass-type defenses to counter it. Nowadays, Snover has become much more popular, Sand is less common, and Grass-types that totally counter Drilbur are also very common. As people on the lower ends of the ladder have been improving, Drilbur simply hasn't been as good as it used to be lately. It's still really threatening and powerful if unchecked in Sand, but there are just too many checks / counters to it now- I don't even really have to consider Drilbur nearly as much as the other three S tier Pokemon when I teambuild. A+ is still really good, which is what Mold Breaker Drilbur is, but I just don't feel as if it's S tier anymore.

If you're still not convinced, think- when was the last time YOU get swept by Sand Rush Drilbur?

Snover shouldn't be S, it's an unreliable counter to a proper Sand and provides little use outside of being a priority weak revenger that is weak to Stealth Rocks. Snover belongs in A/B. A good Sand team should have something to put pressure on Snover and keep it from spamming Blizzard, such as Max Sdef Houndoom with Pursuit, or Wynaut. This completely shuts down Snover if played correctly and helps keep weather control in Sand's favor. Optimal Sand Rush Drilbur spread is 236 SDef/156 Atk/116 HP +Atk anyway to survive Snover Blizzards, seeing as the only thing speed is used for is to outspeed Scarfed 19's and other Drilbur. Not saying Snover is bad, Snover just isn't top tier. He needs a lot of team support from specific Pokemon like Staryu in order to function correctly.
Before the last ladder reset, I held a 94% winrate over 90 games with Double Sand rush, and currently hold an 88% winrate with 50 games (blurgahfhghgghg should be higher though). Snover is just so underwhelming against a properly built Sand team by itself. In order for Snover to counter Sand, it needs so much support you might as well be running 3 separate Drilbur/Sandshrew counters like Porygon/Tirtouga/Bronzor.

Stunky belongs in A/B. Literally just having Stunky on your team completely shuts down Abras, Gastlys, and non-WoW Missys, as well as posing a threat to Frillishes. Performs the same role as Houndour, but lacks a larger nuke that Houndour has in stabbed Fire Blast, but Pursuit traps more reliably. Does NOT belong in D.

Cottonee belongs in D. Against a well prepared team, it can't do squat. All it can do is pass around some Stun Spores and maybe force something out with Encore if you predict a set up move. I have have never, in over 1,000 Little cup games, had a problem with this thing.

Sandshrew belongs in A tier. Does the same thing as Drilbur in terms of Sand Rush teams, just is physically defensive based instead of specially. Takes Mach Punches and and Suckers like a champ, and can win 1 vs 1 against Subkrow with Sub up (from missed Rock Slide or something) which Drilbur cannot do. Should be at least B tier, A in my opinion. The notion of it being E is ridiculous. Double Sand rush is just so strong, and it was what I used to peak #1 on Showdown 3 times after 3 ladder resets. Weak ladder is weak and #1 doesn't say much but it shows Sandshrew isn't E.

Elekid deserves more love too. B-C at the very least, it's tied for the fastest Poke in LC, and brings so much to the table. Mixed movepool, stats, priority, scouting abilities, momentum gaining capabilities, and priority if needed make it far more viable than this list suggests.

Never posted in Smogon forums before, browsing and just giving my 2 cents.

 

[Shouting]

I actually agree with Wobbyble in most points. Cottonee definitely is overrated - very predictable, easy to play around, and lacks the survivability that Foongus and Shroomish have. There are only a few set up sweepers in the tier, like Axew, Pawniard, Scraggy, and Dratini. Cottonee can't even touch Dratini at all because it doesn't care about Stun Spore and can beat encore with extremespeed.

Snover, like I said previously is not S. Any Scarfer outspeeds it and will KO it. It's eviolite set is horrible because it's outclassed by Lileep when it comes to walling water types because Snover lacks recovery, has less overall defenses, way more exploitable weaknesses, and weak to Stealth Rock. I would really like to empahize the specially defensive houndour set Wobbyble mentioned because I've used it before and it is really viable. Completely shuts down Snover like it's nobody's business. The fact that Houndour has no recovery is lessened by Pursuit, because Snover will take heavy damage and will need to face stealth rock again. Almost everyone thinks Houndour is only viable as a life orb attacker, but that is wrong. Specially defensive Houndour is viable because it not only handles Snover, but also Missy, Abra, and grass types. It also has priority which adds to it's utility. Bulky Chimchar can also handle Snover like a champ and gets reliable recovery in Slack Off (yes, I am saying Specially Defensive Chimchar is viable) Any Fire and Steel type handles it well, as well as walls such as Lickitung and Porygon. Offensive teams have scrafers which outspeed and KO Snover with ease. Also, Snover is not a good check to Murkrow, I don't know why people keep saying this. Ice shard will only beat Life Orb Murkrow, but Snover loses to Sub Roost, Parafusion, and Calm Mind Murkrow.

Now to what I disagree with - Stunky, Sandshrew, and Elekid.

Stunky is really a niche pokemon in LC. It does what it's meant to do really well (by the way, even a burned Stunky will beat Missy 1 on 1 if you use the right spread) but doesn't do much outside that. It has really bad 4-MSS as it would be so much better if it had Pursuit / Crunch / Fire Blast / Explosion / Sucker Punch / Taunt but it can't have all of them. Worst of all, Fighting types can easily take advantage of it, especially Scraggy, if you lack Explosion. I think C is fine for it.

Now Sandshrew. Sandshrew does take priority better than Drilbur but the loss to speed is too much to make it viable by itself. Scarfers like Gastly, Missy, Murkrow, etc. all outspeed it and hit it pretty hard. It's also pretty easy to wall without an attack boost.

Elekid is really outclassed in LC. Unless you really want 20 speed, you're better off using Murkrow or Magby as a mixed attacker because Wild Charge and Thunderbolt don't have the pure power that Brave Bird and Flare Blitz / Fire Blast do. 20 speed is really the only thing Elekid has going for it.

 

[macle]

Snover is now S tier.

 

[Rowan]

Cottonee belongs in D. Against a well prepared team, it can't do squat. All it can do is pass around some Stun Spores and maybe force something out with Encore if you predict a set up move. I have have never, in over 1,000 Little cup games, had a problem with this thing.

I'm sorry, but no. The majority of the reason you don't find Cottonee threatening is because people play it wrong. Cottonee is an amazing support Pokemon but not a wall. It's a momentum grabber that makes a fantastic situational counter to a lot of threats. Even if you are sacking it, it's going to either encore a move, or stun spore something which allows you to pick up a lot of momentum and turn the tide of battle in your favour. B tier.

If only it got U-turn...

 

[apt-get]

It's eviolite set is horrible because it's outclassed by Lileep when it comes to walling water types because Snover lacks recovery, has less overall defenses, way more exploitable weaknesses, and weak to Stealth Rock.

I'm sorry, but no, they have completely different roles. First, Snover has giga drain, and I think we should rename "Eviolite" to bulky attacker, because it's what it is. It's not a wall, but a powerful attacker that can tank some hits. It's Not meant to be a wall.

Also, Snover is not a good check to Murkrow, I don't know why people keep saying this. Ice shard will only beat Life Orb Murkrow, but Snover loses to Sub Roost, Parafusion, and Calm Mind Murkrow.

Snover is an excellent offensive check to Murkrow, as it's faster thanks to scarf, and can easily OHKO subroost with Blizzard. Even if Murkrow roosts, it'll deal about 65%, which means stalling out Blizzard's PPs is not a good solution as there's always the freeze chance, the crit chance, and the hail damage. Even murkrow's best checks are beaten by parafusion anyway. It can still 2HKO CMkrow even after one CM, and is gonna threaten it out if it's even at only 75% anyway. CMkrow needs to be at full health if it wants to have a chance to beat Snover.

 

[Shouting]

Giga Drain is not recovery, that would be like saying Cottonee and Ferroseed have reliable recovery, and Lileep has both Giga Drain and Recover. It is much harder to take down a lileep than Snover. If you want a bulky attacker that checks water types, Chinchou, Foongus, Deerling, heck, even Munchlax and Goldeen are overall better because they don't bring Hail, Chinchou and Deerling have much better speed, Chinchou can scout, and Foongus and Munchlax have better survivablity. There is really no reason why Eviolite Snover should be on a team when it's so slow and has like 7 weaknesses. A Bulky Attacker needs to be fast or bulky enough to take hits if it's slow and Snover can't tank much with no recovery and so many weaknesses.

Yes, Blizzard will OHKO subroost Murkrow, but what does that Murkrow do when it causes a switch? It will always Sub - Snover obviously isn't beating a Murkrow behind a Sub anytime soon, and when Sub is Sub Roost's most commonly used move, Snover is hardly a good check. The same with Calm Mind Murkrow. When you get Snover in, Murkrow will already have at least 1 Calm Mind. Then it can Calm Mind before you get in your Blizzard. Calm Mind Murkrow will always beat Snover if it is healthy (above like 70%)

 

[Garchomp for president]

Nominating Skorupi for D. Though I think it deserves C, one things for sure, mienfoo got shit against skorupi. Ill get some calcs later since im on the phone as of now. So heres what skorupi does, he sets up some TSpikes, then knocks off eviolites or taunts things like Hippopotas, and then can whirlwind allmost everything out since it can survive almost any physical hit outside of crit SE mienfoo. Haveing a 4x resistance to fighting types is a gift from above. Therefore I think are little scorpion deserves a D-rank.

Repost: Snover for S-RANK and Skorupi gets battle armor

Here we go

Hi Jump Kick: 14.28 - 19.04% U-turn: 14.28 - 14.28% Stone Edge: 61.9 - 85.71% Fake Out: 19.04 - 23.8%


236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Stone Edge vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Skorupi: 13-18 (61.9 - 85.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

As you see, Mienfoo only has SE to hit skorupi for noteable damage.

 

[(makeup)]

Nominating Lickitung for C tier.

Lickitung definitely fits into the demographic of "Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective" imo because it can support its team with Wish and Heal Bell and has exceptional special bulk; it's really one of a kind in that sense. However, it has some obvious flaws. Being weak to Fighting-type moves and having crappy offense in general are probably its biggest flaws, but it also has some other cons like being complete setup bait for SubNP Misdreavus and Scraggy (if it doesn't have Dragon Tail). Lickitung can actually still run an effective RestTalk set though with Curse and Dragon Tail as a check to Snover (and maybe sand stall?) thanks to Cloud Nine.

Lickitung is really unique and definitely has a useful niche, but its cons aren't outweighed enough by its pros enough to warrant any rank above C.

 

[cxinlee]

Poliwag for C-rank. Basically it can use Hypnosis, set up a belly drum, and potentially do some sweeping with waterfall and return, backed up by it's great speed. Unfortunately it's so frail, hypnosis doesn't always hit, and priority is everywhere.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Snover, like I said previously is not S. Any Scarfer outspeeds it and will KO it. It's eviolite set is horrible because it's outclassed by Lileep when it comes to walling water types because Snover lacks recovery, has less overall defenses, way more exploitable weaknesses, and weak to Stealth Rock. I would really like to empahize the specially defensive houndour set Wobbyble mentioned because I've used it before and it is really viable. Completely shuts down Snover like it's nobody's business. The fact that Houndour has no recovery is lessened by Pursuit, because Snover will take heavy damage and will need to face stealth rock again. Almost everyone thinks Houndour is only viable as a life orb attacker, but that is wrong. Specially defensive Houndour is viable because it not only handles Snover, but also Missy, Abra, and grass types. It also has priority which adds to it's utility. Bulky Chimchar can also handle Snover like a champ and gets reliable recovery in Slack Off (yes, I am saying Specially Defensive Chimchar is viable) Any Fire and Steel type handles it well, as well as walls such as Lickitung and Porygon. Offensive teams have scrafers which outspeed and KO Snover with ease. Also, Snover is not a good check to Murkrow, I don't know why people keep saying this. Ice shard will only beat Life Orb Murkrow, but Snover loses to Sub Roost, Parafusion, and Calm Mind Murkrow.

This may be a little off topic to viablility rankings, but I figured I should post here regarding Eviolite Snover. I can see why Shouting may think it Is bad and why it looks bad on paper since after all, with seven weaknesses wouldn't you want to make Snover as fast as possible so it doesn't have to take hits as much? While it is true that pokemon such as Lileep and Porygon have an easier time walling and dealing with bulky waters anyway, it would be a lie to say that eviolite Snover can't deal with them, having Giga Drain and resiting the Water and Electric-type attacks they often carry. Eviolite gives Snover the ability to possibly bluff a choice scarf so imagine how useful that can be? It can let you beat Tirtouga's, Chinchou's, Staryu's thinking you are locked into Blizzard and then you hit them with a Giga Drain. Also the opposite is also good to beat pokemon like Foongus and Shroomish. They think your locked into giga Drain then you Blizzard them. (Ferroseed is similar except with Hp Fire) Its the surprise factor of Eviolite Snover and its ability to switch moves which makes it quite deadly if played correctly. Don't get me wrong, I definitely think the Choice Scarf set is the best set for Snover by far, but the Eviolite set deserves some love and is far from 'horrible' :)

 

[MikeDawg]

I have little experience with LC, but can I inquire as to why clamperl is in B-rank? After a shell smash it has, what, 60-something attack? That 1hkos pretty much everything in Lc. I have played around 6 games and have swept with clamperl everytime except one when a scarf abra stopped me.

B especially seems insanely low for such a poke

 

[iss]

DST Clamperl reaches 64 Special Attack after a Shell Smash, allowing it to OHKO pretty much everything between Surf and Ice Beam. However, the lack of Eviolite means that it is especially vulnerable while setting up, and extremely susceptible to the common Fake Out and Sucker Punch. Faster Choice Scarfers, such as Scarf Murkrow or Scarf Misdreavus, can easily outrun it and OHKO it with Brave Bird and Thunderbolt, respectively. For example, a Sucker Punch from LO Murkrow will deal upwards of 70% to Clamperl. Obviously this can be alleviated somewhat by running Substitute or Protect as a fourth move, but Clamperl's lack of bulk and difficulty of setup relegate it to B rank.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

I have found Elekid to be an extremely effective physical sweeper, with very few effective checks (and Chinchou the only true counter). Aside from priority, it rarely fears being outsped due to its fantastic 19 speed (20 with jolly nature) and its great movepool allows it to damage almost everything in the tier supereffectively, in my experience usually OHKOing Pokemon lacking Eviolite. Certainly, it deserves placing in C-rank as it holds a small but effective niche as a very fact, wide-movepool physical electric sweeper. 17 Attack bolstered by Life Orb is nothing to sniff at. It is certainly far, far better than Electivire is in OU.

 

[iss]

This thread has become too cluttered. I will be consolidating the current rankings into a new thread, to be posted soon.