This epitomizes why Liepard should be banned. You played really well during this and the other guy actually played like shit (taking 20 turns to predict the Seismatoad switch-in, going out to the paralyzed lopunny so he'd switch after Seis so he couldn't copy rocks, etc.), yet he won regardless. I don't see how you couldn't vote to ban Assist + Prankster at the very least.
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Liepard Suspect Discussion (Read post #202)
- Thread starter Raseri
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Well I got to say Liepard is a bit annoying,the Prankster+Assits+Phazing move is irritating specially if your opponent puts a full field of hazards,it works a lot like riolu except this one is extremely fast your priority won't outspeed it.And it can just keep spamming that until your team is super weak it can just revenge kill it.And you a real big problem taking it out.The only way I can think of taking it out is using E-Speed but the only poke that gets it in NU is Pikachu I believe,the other way as stupid as it sounds it's by using Scarf Priority.
The SubSwag Liepard is EXTREMELY situational and really gimmicky.Because you do 50%-50% on confusion.If your opponent doesn't hit itself and it's a physical threat,well Liepard gets raped completely.It's like doing Coin Flips,if heads it will work,if tails well your Liepard just dies.And it really doesn't cut it.
I should say ban Pranskter+Assist,Liepard itself doesn't really deserve a ban since the ability is broken not the pokemon itself.Those are my thoughts.
The SubSwag Liepard is EXTREMELY situational and really gimmicky.Because you do 50%-50% on confusion.If your opponent doesn't hit itself and it's a physical threat,well Liepard gets raped completely.It's like doing Coin Flips,if heads it will work,if tails well your Liepard just dies.And it really doesn't cut it.
I should say ban Pranskter+Assist,Liepard itself doesn't really deserve a ban since the ability is broken not the pokemon itself.Those are my thoughts.
Linoone and Dragonair both get Extremespeed as well as Pikachu. The only time I've encountered Assist Cat since this topic was started I had Magic Coat Basitidon which would have been successful in keeping hazards off my field if it wasn't for a disconnect.
OversizeD
Banned deucer.
I kinda agree with that. Liepard should'nt be the only one to get banned. The entire ability... is broken as hell. If Liepard gets banned, why wouldn't Murkrow, Purrloin, Riolu, Thundurus etc. get banned? They might not have the same set but still do these annoying stuff. The assist Whirlwind strategy is invented by a person that has way to much time on their hands.
That strategy seems impossible to break through.
I've seen a replay of somebody sweeping an entire ubers team with 1 Purrloin. That thing is way to Overpowered, and especially for being NU. Put that thing to Ubers or anythig. It doesn't belong on showdown anyways.
I met this one person named 'I Use Liepard'. I asked him some stuff about Liepard and even he thinks it should get banned. He told me he used to especially to ladder rank on NU. And look at him, he's almost at the top. I have a really strong feeling that's mainly because of Liepard. That thing is all about luck. There is only 1 Pokemon that can take it out effectively... and that is Belly Drum Linoone. Set up once, and sweep the teams. BUT there will always be this one friggin' person to have a Sash on Liepard. There for making it almost impossible to kill. Liepard is almost the reason to run Red card on your team or even a team full of Magic Bouncers.
I think Liepard is extremely gimmicky and shouldn't belong in the meta. I wonder how many people agree with me on this subject. And let's see how much hate I get for pointing this out.
A team without an answer to swagger liepard (which I assume is the set you're referring to, since it's the set that I Use Liepard uses, and Focus Sash would be awful on AssistPard) is likely poorly built to begin with. Pretty much any dedicated physical wall (bastiodon, alomomola, etcetera) will take a pittance from foul play regardless of boosts, and anything with Taunt, Substitute, a Lum Berry or a Multi-Hit Move can walk all over it. Or, if you don't have patience for that sort of thing, just switch out- Swagger's effects ends. I Use Liepard is highly ranked because he's an excellent player- if you're near the bottom of the ladder, you'll notice dozens of SwagPard users with rankings more than 500 points below his.
Regardless, this thread isn't meant to address SwagPard, which is almost entirely luck based and generally ineffective against skilled players- it's about AssistPard, which is substantially more effective and capable of reliably destroying even well made teams lacking one of its very few counters, most of whom are ineffective at doing much else. If, god forbid, Liepard is banned, it will be because of that set and not because of the amusing combination of Swagger and Foul Play.
Fact: Some people are just really lucky and others are just really bad. When two of these meet each other then what teams they run doesn't matter too much. Also, stating that Prankster as an ability is overpowered is really funny, you shouldn't be wasting your time here but start a career as a comedian, ahahaha.
Oh and btw I believe several people havealready pointed out that utility Liepard keeps many dangerous top threats in check and therefor isn't unhealthy to the metagame at all. Swagplay is annoying but really managable, don't overestimate it please.
I don't really know what there is left to discuss anymore lol. The replays in this thread have shown people using the Assist Liepard tactic very poorly (in one, the user of it sacced his Ditto when he could have switched out and then sacced his Drifblim without ever having set up with Liepard, and in anothersh the Liepard user had ample opportunity to set up a Nasty Plot against a Serperior and just kept shuffling it then eventually switched Liepard out fsr just to lose to a Piloswine he could have handled). If you show me a replay of you defeating someone using the Liepard team incredibly poorly, excuse me for not being impressed.
This suspect is about the fact that beating someone using this strategy effectively is often rather difficult to do. Yeah, if you face someone using something broken incredibly poorly, I can see why you might think the strategy doesn't need banned. In that same way, if I was using Gothitelle with Frisk back when Shadow Tag Gothitelle was legal in NU, I'd understand why you might think it's not hard to beat. There are very few ways of hard-countering this strategy, and those ways often include making your team significantly inferior against any team that doesn't employ said strategy. Banning Assist + Prankster—because Purrloin can do this almost as effectively with Toxic and Protect—will take care of this. In the meantime, there's really no reason to waste anyone's time with replays of you narrowly beating a shitty player using Assist Liepard.
This suspect is about the fact that beating someone using this strategy effectively is often rather difficult to do. Yeah, if you face someone using something broken incredibly poorly, I can see why you might think the strategy doesn't need banned. In that same way, if I was using Gothitelle with Frisk back when Shadow Tag Gothitelle was legal in NU, I'd understand why you might think it's not hard to beat. There are very few ways of hard-countering this strategy, and those ways often include making your team significantly inferior against any team that doesn't employ said strategy. Banning Assist + Prankster—because Purrloin can do this almost as effectively with Toxic and Protect—will take care of this. In the meantime, there's really no reason to waste anyone's time with replays of you narrowly beating a shitty player using Assist Liepard.
First off, the NU tier doesn't have to ability to ban Liepard to Ubers just as it doesn't have the ability to ban Keldeo to Ubers. I agree Liepard in most forms is simply a nuisance but it does have very much useful sets that aren't about being obnoxious, such as weather setter and pursuit trapper. You can't just look at one facet the poke.
OversizeD
Banned deucer.
lol wtf are you on about? Who says I am a comedian here? You're the one overestimating it. I was writing what most people were thinking.
And @ Othesemo: A physicall wall like Alomomola and Bastiodon will not respond to a Liepard... All they can do is Toxic which by then Liepard took down 50% of your team.
Only if you switched in half your team before having the presence of mind to switch in something that beats it.
Roar, magic coat, waterfall, whatever the fuck.
I can't even. Nigga how in the name of Arceus almighty am I overestimating Liepard? I'll quote you here:
I have never implied that I want Liepard to be banned to ubers or anything that's equally ridiculous. Like I said, I don't even want it to be banned, Prankster + Assist will suffice.
How is Prankster broken? Because a combination of Pranskter, Assist, entry hazards, and Whirlwind is very hard to beat, you think that Pranskter should be banned? Basically, you're saying, based on a combination of four different variables, one variable should be entirely banned when this strategy can only be used on two Pokemon of the same exact evolution line? Prankster is in no way broken and I don't even understand why you would possibly think that.
And please, stop bringing up ladder rank. Ladder rank shows no indication of if something is healthy or unhealthy for the metagame. The ladder is generally filled with shitty players who have no idea what they're doing half the time and are getting by on cookie-cutter NU teams.
Also, we are not going to ban something because it is annoying.
I think that Liepard should be banned, it is too much broken and takes no skills to play and win (the battle posted by Haund demonstrates it, i watched all the battle and the other plays like a monkey write on a computer). This combination is just too broken and destroys the meta, so ban it!
It's the strategy overall that's broken, not really any individual mon on the team. Yes, Assistpard wouldn't be broken if it couldn't have hazard support but Ditto wouldn't be broken if it didn't have a teammate that could continually shuffled the opponent and rack up hazard damage.
The most effective way to get rid of the strategy is to ban its use, not ban a poke that's literally only as good as the other pokes in the tier.
Choice scarf ditto becomes a liability after it has set up SR. After it sets up rocks, it gives the opponent a free hit on the rest of the team. Ditto is a great team supporter for Assitcat, but having your poke choice locked onto stealth rocks puts you in a subpar position. The only reason it's viable is because it's teammate can priority phase the rest of the opponent's team (and counter sweep a set up poke).
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Nearing the end of the suspect, felt like I should probably post my thoughts.
Liepard is broken and there is no arguing that but since we have 4 options to vote for in this suspect it makes banning liepard not the best choice. Liepard is solely broken because of the prankster + assist set (mini liepard can also abuse this but to a lesser extent) while liepard without that set can serve a few different purposes in the meta that are all healthy for it and not broken at all. Obligatory swagpard reference, it's annoying but not broken.
Why is the assist + prankster set broken?
Well it's broken because it can win games with little you can do about it most of the time. The only 100% counter to this set is to run teams with no hazards and no pokes that can't break liepard subs (musharna without signal beam being the most prominent that is useless against liepard.) Asking people to run these sort of teams just to deal with one poke is ridiculous and extremely over centralizing but without it you are going to lose almost 100% of the time against a veteran player using this set. The fact that liepard is so fast also eliminates the chances of most priority users to beat out the priority roar.
Liepard is broken and there is no arguing that but since we have 4 options to vote for in this suspect it makes banning liepard not the best choice. Liepard is solely broken because of the prankster + assist set (mini liepard can also abuse this but to a lesser extent) while liepard without that set can serve a few different purposes in the meta that are all healthy for it and not broken at all. Obligatory swagpard reference, it's annoying but not broken.
Why is the assist + prankster set broken?
Well it's broken because it can win games with little you can do about it most of the time. The only 100% counter to this set is to run teams with no hazards and no pokes that can't break liepard subs (musharna without signal beam being the most prominent that is useless against liepard.) Asking people to run these sort of teams just to deal with one poke is ridiculous and extremely over centralizing but without it you are going to lose almost 100% of the time against a veteran player using this set. The fact that liepard is so fast also eliminates the chances of most priority users to beat out the priority roar.
It pains me a bit to do this, but I'm going to open up Special Applications for people who have not hit the laddering requirement yet. There simply isn't enough voters that I feel can comfortable make such a large decision for the tier. So, if you are interested in voting and have fulfilled the following requirements, feel free to PM me a special application.
Requirements:
1) Be a prominent NU player.
2) Have still laddered somewhat for the test. No hard requirement is going to get you in, but I'm much more comfortable picking someone who went 40-5 than someone who went 9-3.
3) PM me a paragraph telling me why you should vote in this suspect test.
4) Have activity in this thread.
Note, that the end of the laddering period is coming up soon, it is October 22nd at 11:59PM MST. Thanks!
Requirements:
1) Be a prominent NU player.
2) Have still laddered somewhat for the test. No hard requirement is going to get you in, but I'm much more comfortable picking someone who went 40-5 than someone who went 9-3.
3) PM me a paragraph telling me why you should vote in this suspect test.
4) Have activity in this thread.
Note, that the end of the laddering period is coming up soon, it is October 22nd at 11:59PM MST. Thanks!
I started laddering for the reqs but got distracted by XY and releasing new apps. I'm not all that bothered about what happens so I'll probably not bother putting in a special application. In the 20+ games I played I saw assist cat once and I disconnected when the universities internet slowed to a halt so I'm not sure laddering is even any sort of indication that users have experience finding answers to assist cat.
I didn't manage to get any seriously replay-worthy matches, but I laddered some last night using FLCL's team, but with Dark Gem Unburden Liepard (maybe Sitrus Berry would be better?) instead of Prankster. It worked pretty well, since it doesn't have to worry about any scarfers once it uses its item and it can still set up and sweep (unlike Scarf Persian) against things like Musharna lacking Signal Beam, etc. It really only has to worry about priority users once the boost is done. The downside is the full Assist-sweep is a one-shot, since you can't get the unburden boost a second time. You can still be pretty threatening pre-speed boost too though.
If anyone wants to give this guy a go, be my guest.
If anyone wants to give this guy a go, be my guest.
I'd imagine unburden Liepard is far less consistent than prankster merely for the fact you now have to worry about all forms of priority rather than just the rare faster priority (Extremespeed , Fake Out , Swellow Quick Attack). Instead you have to worry about Aqua Jet , Mach Punch and Ice Shard. It still be better than scarf persian though.
Wait so you seriously want to ban Ditto? Are you serious?
Listen, if we'd ban Ditto, then the problem wouldn't be solved. Liepard would still be able to run his annoying-ass Asist set, except now there's no entry hazards. This, however, does not take a way the fact that it'd be able to phaze until something that can't harm him too much is shuffled right in, set up, et cetera. It'd suddenly be an awful strategy because there's not much that can't really dent Liepard, but it'd still be heavily reliant on team matchup (Musharna without Signal Beam is setup fodder #1 for Liepard) and therefor could nab some really unfair wins, which is not what we want. What we want is to ban the ENTIRE strategy, meaning a Prankster + Assist ban is the best solution.
Besides, Ditto is not at all broken anywhere outside of Assist teams and it's not even broken inside of them. I don't see your point at all, so unless you can give me very clear reasons as to why this is the problem and not Prankster + Assist I'm not gonna buy it at all.
You could add a SR user over Shiftry and have the same problem. Ban Nature Power Shiftry???????
This isn't looking at the problem objectively, it is looking at it stupidly.
Even without Ditto the Assist Cat user can use Magic Coat and Copycat to get hazards up, even if its slightly less reliable than Scarf + Imposter.
With the suspect test ending tonight, I'll try to summarize my thoughts on liepard, focusing on the combination of prankster and assist that I believe to be uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame. I believe that a complex ban is the most appropriate solution to this suspect test. We must take into consideration that complex bans are frowned upon by the smogon community in general, but have been applied when a potential broken that is an exception to the rule. For example, drizzle+swift swim was banned to keep healthy play styles (rain stall, heavy rain offense) and smash pass was banned in the lower tiers. Complex bans must be thoroughly tested and debated to allow a healthy metagame, but cannot be applied on a whim. I believe that prankster+assist is the exception to the rule that can only be solved by a complex ban.
By applying a complex ban, we achieve the following:
1) We rid the metagame of a broken strategy that encourages an uncompetitive play style and non-diverse team building
2) Not banning liepard. Liepard is a great pivot poke, with encore/pursuit/sucker punch/uturn and is very healthy for the metagame.
The NU metagame doesn't deserve the broken threat of prankster+assist. Team building shouldn't be so restricted that you have to include a full counter like probopass/bastiodon/cradily or try to build teams without hazards at all.
Edit: typing on my phone is difficult xD
By applying a complex ban, we achieve the following:
1) We rid the metagame of a broken strategy that encourages an uncompetitive play style and non-diverse team building
2) Not banning liepard. Liepard is a great pivot poke, with encore/pursuit/sucker punch/uturn and is very healthy for the metagame.
The NU metagame doesn't deserve the broken threat of prankster+assist. Team building shouldn't be so restricted that you have to include a full counter like probopass/bastiodon/cradily or try to build teams without hazards at all.
Edit: typing on my phone is difficult xD
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