Resource LGPE OU Viability Rankings

alakazam (base form) ~ unranked to B- (? idk exactly where)

i think base form alakazam needs to be ranked again. it being unranked does not reflect the metagame post m-gengar ban.

~ base form alakazam is now a quite usable revenge killer, with an excellent speed tier, and teams lacking specific checks dont switch in very well either. shadow ball 2hkos mew and starmie, and obv gengar is also outsped and forced out. psychic ofc ohkos nidos and zam has good matchups against the other grounds as well.
in terms of switch ins, zam's psychic stab is hard to switch into on teams lacking muk-a or m-gyara, sometimes melmetal is rly the only switchin and potentially forcing ~50% on melmetal with two psychics is significant. shadow ball isnt much easier to switch into (if mew or starmie is forced out), ofc except teams with a normal type but none are all that common in the tier. the lack of very good switchins to its two most used attacks on a number of teams means that despite its frailty zam often doesnt rly need to make risky predictions.
its speed tier leaves it faster than everything except the three fastest megas (and electrode) and base aero. however m-beedrill is obv identifiable from team preview, and m-zam will often be the mega of choice against m-bee teams anyway, since rly the only zam check that tends to fit well on those teams is chansey, and the others are a potential speed tie for m-zam anyway.

~ i think ranking base form zam is important to indicate its usability on dual mega teams (bc if the base form is not ranked, that implies that zam always has to mega evolve). imo the best second mega to pair with zam is aero, and id argue they are the best dual mega pairing in the tier currently. other than melmetal which is on every team, there is no overlap in their best checks, so many teams are significantly more vulnerable to one than the other from preview, and even when that is not the case it pressures the opponent to preserve their checks to both megas until one of them mega evolves. however there is some overlap in semi-checks like m-gyara, which one base form can pressure to come in and weaken it for the other, and ofc melmetal which each can often force some damage on even staying in base form.
[i have seen some aero+zam teams, but they almost always ran stealth rock on aero. aero rly doesnt want the responsibility of setting rocks if it is m-evolving frequently, and the offensive threat of aero+zam requires maximum flexibility in choice of mega. but i suppose it is an advantage that from preview u might not be able to distinguish a true dual mega aero/zam team from an m-zam team that is just using base aero as an offensive rocks setter.]
i think other mega pairings are probably viable, eg zam + gyara which would play more similarly to aero + gyara where gyara is the primary mega and zam is typically only mega evolving against m-beedrill teams which are often a bit weak to it, and being used in base form as a revenge killer otherwise. but my nomination is primarily based on zam + aero.

i picked B- kind of arbitrarily as thats where base gyara is. honestly i see base zam as more like B rank as it has gone from a pokemon that rly needs to m-evolve to a solid option on dual mega teams, but i have barely seen it used.
 
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With a significant amount of theory since the last discussions of viability, and the LGPE Global Championship coming to a close, there is quite a bit of evidence to support Pokémon both moving up and down the VR. Here's my first post of several, detailing the 4 Pokémon that have without much doubt showcased a higher ranking than what the current ranking reflect.
:sm/Alakazam-Mega:A+ > A This nomination should come to the surprise of nobody who to has any extent followed or participated in the past couple hundred games played in this tier. Mega Alakazam, after being developed in theory and moved upwards last VR slate, was put into full practice this tournament, and has preformed admirably. It has no reliable offensive checks due to its speed, and it's never an impossible task to damage its defensive ones. The number of Pokémon in the OU tier that can survive an attack after a Calm mind number at 6, and Alakazam has setup opportunities on many relevant Pokémon such as Nidoqueen, Poliwrath, Mew, and Zapdos. Teams lacking harder answers such as Alolan Muk, Chansey, and Snorlax must be exceptionally careful to keep their checks at high enough health to not lose to even an unboosted Alakazam, and this means those teams must sack Pokémon or make tough decisions when it comes in, due to Alakazam's ability to wallbreak for itself. I don't believe it is broken, nor do I think it's objectively the best mega, but IF there had to be a mon labeled as problematic in the OU tier, it would probably be this one. Mega Alakazam has earned its place among the other 3 best Mega Pokémon in the meta.
:sm/gengar: A- > B+ Gengar saw much more use and exploration this tournament than in the previous one and is an extremely scary mon to face. Its current ranking poorly reflects its abilities and I'd like to see that change. Gengar boasts a very positive matchup against the best mons in the game, being the only non mega to reliably 2HKO Mew, effectively warding off Mega Gyarados and Melmetal completely with Will-o-Wisp, and has the speed and power to bully mons like Zapdos, Mega Charizard, and anything else slower trying to switch in. With its coverage and strong STABs it's very difficult to switch into Gengar period, and you'll often find yourself using Pokémon like Snorlax or Alolan Muk to effectively deal with it, when Gengar is often more than ok with trading itself for a large amount of damage on these Pokémon, paving the way for common partners like Mega Alakazam to win in its wake. Gengar is extremely flexible teambuilding-wise too, offering a huge amount of offensive presence for not taking up a mega slot, and having useful defensive typing in most matchups. It's easily comparable to A- Pokémon and if the sub-ranks were to be ordered, at the moment I would put it as the best of the rank.
:sm/persian-alola: B > B- For the second time in a row Persian-A has had a very small and very successful stint of use in tour. But even setting the small sample size of results aside, Persian-A has all the tools to be 1 or even 2 subranks higher than where it is now. High speed Taunt and STAB Foul Play provide a ton to a variety of teams, able to prevent rocks from almost every setter in the game, 2HKO Mew, and do large amounts of chip to Melmetal using it's own attack stat. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1306118272-5n2g5xd3pu3ug1vx9o4mojqn0sz6p3ppw
Here it can be seen landing toxic on a Gyarados and U-turning out, leaving it poisoned and at 56%, and having the speed to provide utility at any point later in the match. It can force out the Melmetal later on with STAB Foul Play, and as Zapdos tries to switch in, it is taunted and hit to be under 25%, eliminated from the game due to rocks. There are many scenarios where Persian can trade favorably, and always have the option to U-turn out and preserve itself for the rest of the match, denying your opponent the chance to double or take momentum. Again hesitant to put it any higher due to it still being quite unexplored despite its merit, but I can easily compare what Persian-A does with pokemon of B rank, especially because its ability to outspeed and KO Dugtrio and Gengar matches well with rising usage mons like Gengar as well as old staples like mcooldudeaero.
:sm/cloyster: B+ > B Cloyster is riding the wave of special cleaners like Gengar and Mega Alakazam very well, showcasing very well recently what it excels at, abusing mons like Mega Gyarados, Nidoqueen, and Dugtrio-A to Shell Smash up and force your opponent to use defensive counterplay. Cloyster can reliably put your opponent into unwinnable positions by leaving them no option but to use a Pokemon like Mew, Melmetal, or Alolan-Muk to sponge a hit and KO it, and when you combine this removal of a Alakazam check with the normal wear and tear the opposing team will experience throughout the game, it's very difficult to not lose to Alakzam after Cloyster successfully sets up, with some outs being Hydro Pump missing a crucial target Melmetal or making the very risky play of switching out a Snorlax or Muk-A into something more suitable for taking a Self-Destruct. Cloyster's synergy with other fast offensive Pokémon is very unexplored as well, as it's primarily spammed alongside Mega-Alakazam or Starmie, we don't even know the full extent of its utility when used alongside Pokemon like Dugtrio or Mega Aerodactyl, or any other Pokémon over base 100 speed that very much appreciates Mew/Melmetal being cut down to 20-40% health. It's very possible that Cloyster's viability is not even fully realized, and I think B+ works much better for it at the moment.
 
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(i agree with all of collette's noms, a lil unsure abt cloyster but def the other three)

i was going to make a general grounds post but i think all the ranks are close enough except for once again

rhydon ~ drop to B or maybe B-

it was dropped last time but it is still completely out of place in A-. it does not fit well onto rly any teams / structures rn and it consistently performs badly.
in the current tourn it has basically been used on two team types, m-beedrill and m-venu/chansey. m-beedrill teams using any ground other than sandslash-k have done very badly in this tourn, as sandslash's few weaknesses means it is rarely forced out which is key for m-bee teams that cannot afford the momentum loss, on top of which golem is also usually better than rhydon for m-bee teams for its ability to preserve momentum with explosion.
while rhydon's synergy with m-venu is good, the 'wishkiller' type teams have too many other issues, and otherwise m-venu teams often prefer dugtrio-a for its speed tier, if they run a ground type at all.
~ honestly i think B is too high in terms of its current effectiveness but 1) zard x has had extremely low usage in this tourn and the mu vs fire types is one of the few good reasons to use rhydon; 2) there is def still ~ room for development, in terms of movesets rocks-less rhydon is very underexplored esp given how bad rhydon is at setting rocks, eg sub + megahorn if u can provide para support or running megahorn + toxic on the same set, and other rhydon/venu structures in terms of team options.


[ ~ i think there can also be some discussion of fighting types, which all benefit from the continuing prominence of psychic-less mew. idt poliwrath has any room to rise but it easily 1v1s scald mew if it runs stoss; machamp loves psychic-less mew and can 1v1 scald mew reasonably well with toxic + facade which machamp easily has room to run, and when opposing mew cant even check it machamp def performs way above a C- rank; hitmonlee, esp its bulk up set (+ facade), is very threatening to teams with psychic-less mew; primeape hates burn and lacks the special bulk but is still obv very happy if it can stay in on scald to click u-turn, and low kick / u-turn / ice punch is sufficient coverage so facade is an option in the fourth slot, tho it doesnt 2hko mew but allows primeape to not become 'deadweight' if it gets burned.
however none have had a lot of usage recently, tho poliwrath 1v1ing mew did happen (repeatedly) in the tourn in the matches where poli was used, so this is more directed at discussion than any ranking changes
(the fighting types are all decent users of facade as they still do good damage to melm when burned with low kick/hjk, but particularly machamp which also has the phys bulk to take a dib)
 
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LpZ

capy
is a Tiering Contributor
RUPL Champion
Well, with the end of the LGPE GC I would like to do some nominations:

:alakazam_mega: A to A+ : Without any doubt LGPE GC is the tournament that put Zam in the spotlight and helped it solidify itself as one of the 3 best megas this tier has to offer. I know Collette already mentioned that but with the recent trend of Cloyster (or Gengar) alongside it just shows how of a menacing force it can be once Cloyster (or Gengar) weaken its checks, but it is a force to be reckoned with on its own as well. Also, teams lacking special sponges like Muk-A are in extreme danger if Zam shows up at team preview and you have to play with extreme caution to not give it free turns.

:cloyster: B to B+ : Speaking of Cloyster, here it is. When paired with a strong special wallbreaker like Gengar or Mega Alakazam it can open up big holes for its special wallbreaking partners as Cloyster shares checks like Melmetal, M-Gyarados and Muk-A with those pokemon. Finding setup opportunities on the tier's best ground types Nidoqueen and Duggy-A (I wouldn't say it can setup on M-Gyarados as Dragon Tail is quite common on it and Gyarados doesn't feel threatened by it anyways). Its downside as I'd been noticing on LGPE GC is how often it miss Hydro Pump, I think i dodged multiple Cloyster Pumps throughout the tour lol, but I don't think you miss out too much by using Surf, Cloyster is almost never sweeping anyways, your goal is to break would-be Zam/Gar checks wide open with it.

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:gengar: B+ to A- : At this point I am just copypasting Collette's post, but Gengar has been doing good as a Zam partner doing similar things Cloyster did but with different tools, as in the case of the Zam + Cloyster pairing, Gengar and Zam share their checks on Muk-A, Gyara and Melmetal, but instead of dealing huge chunks of damage on them like Cloyster usually does Gengar's selling point in this role is crippling them with Will-O-Wisp forcing constant chip damage and maybe even allowing Zam or itself to eat an extra hit from them, but even though Gengar is usually used as a Zam partner in crime Gengar is a bit more independent than Cloyster, I can see it working outside of Zam's partnership, as Collete has already mentioned it is the only non-mega to 2hko mew reliably and it is really strong overall, mainly on non-Muk matchups where Gengar can go berserk so it is absolutely reasonable that Gengar is a rank higher than Cloyster.

:aerodactyl: B to B+ : Aka guaranteed rocks, it just can't disappoint on what it is supposed to do, which is fast rocks, and it is of absolutely importance to get rocks up asap in LGPE OU and in addition to this it gets Taunt to prevent opposing rocks early, even if you end up trading it for rocks it can still be worth the sack. Nidoqueen, the best rocker in the tier, as bulky as it is, it can still be pressured and outplayed enough via good pivoting causing it to set rocks up way too late in the game or not setting up at all, regular Aero can set rocks up early with little to no things interfering it. Its speed tier is also really useful as well with EdgeQuake coverage and the potential to chip Melm down and fishing for some Rock Slide flinches. It just feels way more useful than anything in B.

:beedrill-mega: A+ to A : It's just not on the level of Zam, Aero and Gyarados. It is still great as a Pokemon, it is unique on what it does of course, it just feels less rewarding using it when you see Gyarados immediate power and Zam/Aero cleaning potential while dealing lots of damage. I guess its main problem is its rocks weakness, you would have to run additional support to prevent rocks (and even then, it is not a guarantee anyways), also Bee teams are all about mainteining momentum, which Bee absolutely fails on this task when it is forced to click Roost, and if you just give up Roost on it and run X-Scissor instead, you have limited switchins, but overall it is still a great pokemon it just doesn't show the same level of threat the other megas show.

:rhydon: A- to B : It's really not it anymore, it only have a solid opportunity to set up rocks against zapdos/m-bee (both of which can just u-turn on it) and that`s prob about it (?), it can hit kinda strong I get it but its defensive capabilities are not good enough, it is pressured by SO many things, its rock-type gives it more cons than pros, being weak to ground, quad weak to water and weak to steel are things you usually don`t want on your rocker, paired with a poor base speed of 40, only notably outspeeding Snorlax, Sassy Muk-A and Melmetal, plus its rock-type does not give any notable resistances as Normal, Flying and Fire-type attacks are really uncommon in this tier. The upside of being rock-type, however, is basically STAB EdgeQuake and that`s about it. Nidoqueen outclasses it defensively, being immune to toxic and possessing good physical and special bulk, allowing it to switch on something like Muk`s Crunch and set up rocks, or even being able to eat Mew`s Psychic/Scald as a last resort if you really need those rocks up, Nidoking outclasses it by virtue of its okay bulk, better typing and having the ability to pressure teams because of its great movepool, Sandslash outclasses it by literally not having a Rock-typing, and it is decently faster than Rhydon, Duggy-A outclasses it for being able to pressure virtually everything when given the chance with Substitute 3 Attacks, Toxic + 3 Attacks or SubsToxic (please don't use rocks duggy) and its great speed stat helps it picking off weakened Pokemon. TL:DR Rhydon gets outclassed by too many ground types in the tier and its real selling point is just STAB EdgeQuake.

We still have a lot to explore in this tier and hopefully we can search through some options in the upcoming teamtour.
 

Eve

Bzzt!
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Decided I'd do a personal Viability Rankings because I was bored. This has some fairly big differences compared to the current VR, which is probably overdue for an update. I also made it roughly ordered within ranks but this becomes less precise lower down because I hardly use most of the mons there and don't want to be too biased. Would love to see other people's opinions- if you want to do one like this, here's the tiermaker link.
1623975844268.png

Rough reasoning:
S Rank: Mew is the single most reliable Pokemon in the tier regardless of the role it's filling so it gets #1. Melmetal is vitally important to almost every team's defensive integrity while also being the best wallbreaker so it gets #2. This probably won't be very controversial and these descriptions don't really do these mons justice but oh well.
S- Rank: Zapdos combines offense, defense, and pivoting prowess into an unmatched package that also heavily warps teambuilding. Putting it on par with A+ mons would be underselling it and it's closer to Mew and Melm honestly, so it goes here.
A+ Rank: These three could really go in any order, but this is what feels most right to me. Mega Aerodactyl is extremely reliable as a cleaner and breaker while also having some defensive utility, Mega Alakazam is ridiculously potent offensively and doesn't ever have a rocks weakness unlike the other two so it gets loads of opportunities with good play, and Mega Gyarados is near impossible to handle defensively while also being amazing defensively itself.
A Rank: Mega Beedrill is the enabler of a huge number of cool and powerful strategies and a potent cleaner and wallbreaker in its own right, earning it its spot at the top of A Rank. Nidoqueen is imo the best Ground-type for its defensive reliability and splashability, but Alolan Dugtrio is a close second for its offensive prowess, especially with the newly popularized Sub set. Gengar is a ridiculous wallbreaker and especially the best way to enable Alakazam, but it isn't tied to Zam teams and can be amazing no matter what style it's on. Alolan Muk happens to be the best answer, and it's generally an invaluable mon defensively while never really struggling to threaten the opponent like Lax or Chansey very often do.
A- Rank: Dragonite can struggle with forced Outrages but it's still an extremely potent sweeper. Cloyster doesn't really sweep many teams but it's great at abusing Grounds and leaving dents in the opponent's team in a way little else can, Zam especially loves it. Mega Venusaur can be really horrible to try and play around with its ability to spread residual and sleep while never taking any damage and healing it all off over time. Poliwrath has a godly defensive typing in a tier filled with Melmetal, Gyara, Aero, Grounds etc. but is held back from being a mainstay by its relative passivity, still a very reliable mon though.
B+ Rank: ZardX is pretty much the only good Fire-type in a tier where that's a really strong offensive typing, and it's complemented perfectly by Dragon and its overall decent longevity via Roost. Dragon Tail off ZardX's 130 attack actually hits hard and makes switching around it pretty much a no-go so you have to take its hits head on, but the mon is pretty crippled by Toxic and its Rocks weakness so it's hard to use. Starmie is kinda weak and not that bulky but it can be really useful for more offensive builds as a Ground and Melmetal check that doesn't let up on Speed. Don't run Surf or Scald, they deal no damage. Nidoking doesn't have Nidoqueen's bulk or Super Fang but it's pretty solid offensively and very, very versatile. Sandslash is a really reliable rocker thanks to its minimal weaknesses and not being weak to Ground is unique to it among viable Ground-types. Rhydon is an atrocious rocker but it's absolutely bonkers offensively and can still be a nice check to Aero, Bee etc.
B Rank: Snorlax doesn't answer Alakazam anywhere near as well as Alolan Muk and it can struggle to make much progress without blowing itself up due to mediocre STAB and being outsped by Melmetal but it's still nice sometimes, its lack of a Ground weakness especially can get it a spot on teams over Muk. Alolan Exeggutor is the only real Ground resist in the tier and is really solid offensively too, VERY underutilized mon. Starter Eevee occasionally completely takes over a game but it's usually pretty underwhelming- still, it does some irreplaceable things that you might be looking for. Golem is like Rhydon but it can blow itself up for a strong hit + momentum and can outspeed standard Sassy Alolan Muk if it wants, generally most noteworthy for the former though. Regular Aerodactyl is really good at getting Stealth Rock up, makes for a passable revenge killer, and, of course, gives your team a secondary Mega option in a pinch. Ranking base formes is really awkward in most cases but regular Aero absolutely has to be mentioned for its own merits.
B- Rank: This one is pretty messy but oh well. Alolan Persian is deceptively good, Foul Play + Taunt + U-turn can force damage that sticks on lots of Pokemon and even deny Stealth Rock sometimes, fits very nicely on Bee teams. The Nasty Plot set is pretty fun too, catches people off guard and has really good coverage for lategame cleaning + hypnosis cheese >:). Mega Blastoise can perform way above this ranking but it's generally less optimal than Mega Gyarados from my experience, I could see this going up if it got used more though. Dodrio and Omastar are matchup monsters that can absolutely shred slower or surgically opened teams with Swords Dance and Shell Smash respectively. Omastar can also provide Stealth Rock which is actually pretty cool for Hyper Offense. Clefable is a very neutral Stealth Rock setter that doesn't struggle to set the hazard, but it doesn't really counter anything so it's hard to justify as one of your 6 Pokemon most of the time. Chansey is awful but also by far the best answer to Mega Alakazam so it has to be ranked here at minimum.
C Ranks: Pretty unimportant and veeeery loosely ordered. Starter Pikachu is underrated, it revenge kills the fast Megas from very commonly achieved ranges e.g. Alakazam after Mew U-turn + Rocks, Aerodactyl after Beedrill U-turn + Rocks. Literally nothing else reliably revenge kills all 3 so this is actually... really impressive. It still has negative defensive utility though, so keep that in mind. You could persuade me to put any of the mons in this section anywhere else in this section realistically. Notably I think that Mega Pidgeot deserves ranking now, has potential in two ways via either pairing with fast breakers as an offensive pivot or making use of its great Speed, typing, decent bulk and ability to melt Melmetal for a unique Toxic + Roost stall set.
 
Decided I'd do a personal Viability Rankings because I was bored. This has some fairly big differences compared to the current VR, which is probably overdue for an update. I also made it roughly ordered within ranks but this becomes less precise lower down because I hardly use most of the mons there and don't want to be too biased. Would love to see other people's opinions- if you want to do one like this, here's the tiermaker link.
View attachment 350298
Rough reasoning:
S Rank: Mew is the single most reliable Pokemon in the tier regardless of the role it's filling so it gets #1. Melmetal is vitally important to almost every team's defensive integrity while also being the best wallbreaker so it gets #2. This probably won't be very controversial and these descriptions don't really do these mons justice but oh well.
S- Rank: Zapdos combines offense, defense, and pivoting prowess into an unmatched package that also heavily warps teambuilding. Putting it on par with A+ mons would be underselling it and it's closer to Mew and Melm honestly, so it goes here.
A+ Rank: These three could really go in any order, but this is what feels most right to me. Mega Aerodactyl is extremely reliable as a cleaner and breaker while also having some defensive utility, Mega Alakazam is ridiculously potent offensively and doesn't ever have a rocks weakness unlike the other two so it gets loads of opportunities with good play, and Mega Gyarados is near impossible to handle defensively while also being amazing defensively itself.
A Rank: Mega Beedrill is the enabler of a huge number of cool and powerful strategies and a potent cleaner and wallbreaker in its own right, earning it its spot at the top of A Rank. Nidoqueen is imo the best Ground-type for its defensive reliability and splashability, but Alolan Dugtrio is a close second for its offensive prowess, especially with the newly popularized Sub set. Gengar is a ridiculous wallbreaker and especially the best way to enable Alakazam, but it isn't tied to Zam teams and can be amazing no matter what style it's on. Alolan Muk happens to be the best answer, and it's generally an invaluable mon defensively while never really struggling to threaten the opponent like Lax or Chansey very often do.
A- Rank: Dragonite can struggle with forced Outrages but it's still an extremely potent sweeper. Cloyster doesn't really sweep many teams but it's great at abusing Grounds and leaving dents in the opponent's team in a way little else can, Zam especially loves it. Mega Venusaur can be really horrible to try and play around with its ability to spread residual and sleep while never taking any damage and healing it all off over time. Poliwrath has a godly defensive typing in a tier filled with Melmetal, Gyara, Aero, Grounds etc. but is held back from being a mainstay by its relative passivity, still a very reliable mon though.
B+ Rank: ZardX is pretty much the only good Fire-type in a tier where that's a really strong offensive typing, and it's complemented perfectly by Dragon and its overall decent longevity via Roost. Dragon Tail off ZardX's 130 attack actually hits hard and makes switching around it pretty much a no-go so you have to take its hits head on, but the mon is pretty crippled by Toxic and its Rocks weakness so it's hard to use. Starmie is kinda weak and not that bulky but it can be really useful for more offensive builds as a Ground and Melmetal check that doesn't let up on Speed. Don't run Surf or Scald, they deal no damage. Nidoking doesn't have Nidoqueen's bulk or Super Fang but it's pretty solid offensively and very, very versatile. Sandslash is a really reliable rocker thanks to its minimal weaknesses and not being weak to Ground is unique to it among viable Ground-types. Rhydon is an atrocious rocker but it's absolutely bonkers offensively and can still be a nice check to Aero, Bee etc.
B Rank: Snorlax doesn't answer Alakazam anywhere near as well as Alolan Muk and it can struggle to make much progress without blowing itself up due to mediocre STAB and being outsped by Melmetal but it's still nice sometimes, its lack of a Ground weakness especially can get it a spot on teams over Muk. Alolan Exeggutor is the only real Ground resist in the tier and is really solid offensively too, VERY underutilized mon. Starter Eevee occasionally completely takes over a game but it's usually pretty underwhelming- still, it does some irreplaceable things that you might be looking for. Golem is like Rhydon but it can blow itself up for a strong hit + momentum and can outspeed standard Sassy Alolan Muk if it wants, generally most noteworthy for the former though. Regular Aerodactyl is really good at getting Stealth Rock up, makes for a passable revenge killer, and, of course, gives your team a secondary Mega option in a pinch. Ranking base formes is really awkward in most cases but regular Aero absolutely has to be mentioned for its own merits.
B- Rank: This one is pretty messy but oh well. Alolan Persian is deceptively good, Foul Play + Taunt + U-turn can force damage that sticks on lots of Pokemon and even deny Stealth Rock sometimes, fits very nicely on Bee teams. The Nasty Plot set is pretty fun too, catches people off guard and has really good coverage for lategame cleaning + hypnosis cheese >:). Mega Blastoise can perform way above this ranking but it's generally less optimal than Mega Gyarados from my experience, I could see this going up if it got used more though. Dodrio and Omastar are matchup monsters that can absolutely shred slower or surgically opened teams with Swords Dance and Shell Smash respectively. Omastar can also provide Stealth Rock which is actually pretty cool for Hyper Offense. Clefable is a very neutral Stealth Rock setter that doesn't struggle to set the hazard, but it doesn't really counter anything so it's hard to justify as one of your 6 Pokemon most of the time. Chansey is awful but also by far the best answer to Mega Alakazam so it has to be ranked here at minimum.
C Ranks: Pretty unimportant and veeeery loosely ordered. Starter Pikachu is underrated, it revenge kills the fast Megas from very commonly achieved ranges e.g. Alakazam after Mew U-turn + Rocks, Aerodactyl after Beedrill U-turn + Rocks. Literally nothing else reliably revenge kills all 3 so this is actually... really impressive. It still has negative defensive utility though, so keep that in mind. You could persuade me to put any of the mons in this section anywhere else in this section realistically. Notably I think that Mega Pidgeot deserves ranking now, has potential in two ways via either pairing with fast breakers as an offensive pivot or making use of its great Speed, typing, decent bulk and ability to melt Melmetal for a unique Toxic + Roost stall set.
Hi heres mine

S
Melmetal
Mew

Two essential Pokémon, I put Melmetal over mew because I think Mewless teams are more successfull than Melmless teams, the latter faces incredibly hard matchups vs Bee and sometimes Zam.

S-
Zapdos

Zapdos is on the level of every Mega without taking a mega slot. It has a great matchup with melmetal, and is always incredibly threatening after the electric immunity is dealt with. There's several zapdos paragraphs on this thread that echo and elaborate on this, but it deserves its rank above the A+ megas

A+
Mega Alakazam
Mega Aerodactyl

Mega Alakazam and Mega Aerodactyl are incredibly tight in my eyes and my opinion on which one is better is subject to change. Right now I do think zam is more scary though, it just requires very little done throughout a match before it can just outright win.

Mega Gyarados

Mega Beedrill

Mega Beedrill is a bit of a step below the other A+ Megas due to how easily it is delt with offensively sometimes, but I think its still absolutely an A+ pokemon due to how crushing and oppresive it is in certain matchups

A
Nidoqueen
Alolan Dugtrio
Dragonite
Alolan Muk
Gengar

Gengar is incredibly threatening, and could be seen as a special Alolan Dugtrio, it terms of viability. Very little pokemon can switch into it and those who can have poor lengevity or are vunerable by burn. I can't wait to see more about it and I definitely feel its on par with dragonite, queen, and muk, the wholesome staples of the tier.

A-
Mega Charizard X
Mega Venusaur
Starmie
Rhydon

Only change I made to A- from the current vr is dropping poliwrath, I think it's just a little too passive, and even when it offers great utlity defensively against Melmetal, its very easy for your opponent to go into fighting resists like Mew or Zapdos and make progress against you with U-turn. It's still very valuable vs Mega Gyara and can mitigate its issues with status and coverage though, I feel B+ is a good spot for it, it's rather like Snorlax in viability.

B+
Poliwrath
Snorlax
Cloyster
Nidoking
Sandslash


:sm/cloyster: B+ > B Cloyster is riding the wave of special cleaners like Gengar and Mega Alakazam very well, showcasing very well recently what it excels at, abusing mons like Mega Gyarados, Nidoqueen, and Dugtrio-A to Shell Smash up and force your opponent to use defensive counterplay. Cloyster can reliably put your opponent into unwinnable positions by leaving them no option but to use a Pokemon like Mew, Melmetal, or Alolan-Muk to sponge a hit and KO it, and when you combine this removal of a Alakazam check with the normal wear and tear the opposing team will experience throughout the game, it's very difficult to not lose to Alakzam after Cloyster successfully sets up, with some outs being Hydro Pump missing a crucial target Melmetal or making the very risky play of switching out a Snorlax or Muk-A into something more suitable for taking a Self-Destruct. Cloyster's synergy with other fast offensive Pokémon is very unexplored as well, as it's primarily spammed alongside Mega-Alakazam or Starmie, we don't even know the full extent of its utility when used alongside Pokemon like Dugtrio or Mega Aerodactyl, or any other Pokémon over base 100 speed that very much appreciates Mew/Melmetal being cut down to 20-40% health. It's very possible that Cloyster's viability is not even fully realized, and I think B+ works much better for it at the moment.
B
Alolan Exeggutor
Omastar
Aerodactyl
Eevee (Starter)
Alolan Persian
Chansey
Clefable

The above pokemon are a bit off meta but all very usable in my eyes. Anything not listed on this VR I'd only use as a counterpick or if i was feeling a little cheeky. Not that they can't work well though, they're all ranked for a reason.
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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UU Leader
I meant to do this a while ago but here's a current personal VR:



Eve's VR has a lot more stuff on it than I do, as does Collette's, which is primarily because I don't do a ton of exploration of more niche stuff in this meta. I tend to just stick with what's good and do my best to win with it. That said, here is my reasoning for most of the placements that I feel aren't self explanatory.

S+
Melm and Mew being here should be obvious, I personally believe both are absolutely mandatory on any competitive team but I have seen a few functional Mewless teams. I do not believe that dropping Melmetal in any circumstance is truly a viable choice and you are shooting yourself in the foot by doing so as it is the single most important defensive Pokemon in the tier while also being the best wallbreaker, you will lose to the Megas without it and there's really no getting around that. Both should be on >95% of teams.

S
Zapdos is not mandatory but it's damn close to it. It is the single most punishing Pokemon to face if you don't pack a dedicated answer to it; there are virtually no Electric resists that aren't Ground-types and running a team without a Ground means you are weak to Zapdos no matter what, even if you have something like Snorlax or Chansey. Couple that with the fact that it's pretty much the best (or at least most commonplace) Melmetal switch-in the tier has to offer while also being incredibly fast and providing great utility and you've got a Pokemon that should always be at the forefront of your mind when building.

S-
These two Mega Evolutions are straight up ridiculous. The reason I rate Zam and Aero so high specifically is because of their phenomenal playmaking ability; you can pretty much compensate for any matchup deficit by having one of these two on your team because they are so reliable and lethal due to their massive wallbreaking / cleaning prowess in addition to the fact that only Electrode outspeeds them and the only even semi-common priority that'll annoy them is Alolan Duggy's Sucker Punch and Starter Pika's Zippy Zap. They are pretty much why Melmetal is mandatory on every viable team. Other Megas, Beedrill and Gyarados especially, are both very good, but you really should have good reason to not be using one of these two on your teams.

A+
Gengar has cemented itself alongside Zapdos as the type of Pokemon that feels like a Mega despite not taking up the Mega slot. Its only switch in, Alolan Muk, gets smashed by Will-O-Wisp and is tasked with handling its partner in crime - Mega Alakazam - so often that it'll pretty much always get worn down instantly if you play well. It's the only non-Mega Pokemon that is capable of outspeeding Mew while threatening it for insane damage outside of the fringe viable Alolan Persian, which is immensely valuable on teams that don't want to deal with the cat through Toxic. Mega Beedrill and Mega Gyarados are both insanely good mons that are really only held back by the fact that you're not using Mega Aerodactyl or Mega Alakazam when you put them on a team. They can be considered for a lot of teams and Gyara in particular has a tendency to just 6-0 unprepared teams while also being pretty slept on.

A
Nidoqueen is the most reliable Zapdos counter and happens to get em up quite easily while threatening pretty much the entire tier with EQ + Toxic. Great switch in to Alolan Muk and often forces trades with Melmetal, making it an extremely effective member on special spam archetypes featuring Mega Zam / Gengar / Cloyster and friends. Alolan Dugtrio also abuses Zapdos but in a different way by being a pretty lethal wallbreaker and forcing progress in its own right, making it a big threat on offensive teams that provides some extremely important defensive utility despite its shitty bulk. Also lives one from Zam which is cool. Starmie is pretty slept on, the Hydro variant really tears into a lot of teams and it's got great defensive utility as something of a Melm counter and a way to force Cloyster to explode while also switching into the Grounds pretty well. Its Speed is also soooo helpful against Gengar.

A-
Cloyster is an enormous threat that blows shit open for Mega Zam extremely consistently and abuses the hell out of Nidoqueen and Sandslash so it gets a decent ranking. I've never been high on Alolan Muk but its presence has to be respected; it's pretty much the only truly viable Zam/Gar counter but it's pretty shoddy into both of them w/ permarocks and their coverage as well as burns. It's also really annoyed by Mew despite wanting to check it. Dragonite is a very scary cleaner and breaker in one slot that also provides some pretty cool defensive utility as something that can pretty handily switch into most Ground-types (albeit at the cost of getting Toxiced) and actually threatening them for damage in return, and its generally good bulk lets it trade against most stuff favourably. Sandslash is a bit worse than Nidoqueen as a rocker but it has its place on teams that really don't want the extra Psychic weakness and it's a much better Aero check (tho it's still not a great one).

B+
Mega Charizard X is a nightmare to play against and is again one of the mons that's really only hampered by the fact that you can't use another Mega alongside it; fitting speed control gets hard and it forces awkward team comps so I don't find myself using it too often but in general it tends to dismantle standard teams easily if played well. Mega Venusaur has a lot of cool defensive utility for something that hits so damn hard with Petal Dance but again, really hard to build with bc of the deficit caused by not using other Megas. Poliwrath checks some stuff but tends to be an on-paper mon, I like the SToss+Toxic sets that have been popping up a bit lately but 4 attacks is not really viable at all. Rhydon is a cool rocker / sub user on offensive teams that doubles as what is probably the strongest pure wallbreaker in the tier - nothing handles it defensively at all - but it's awfully slow and threatened by so much so it can be really hard to play with. Nidoking is another strong breaker with some cool defensive utility but I tend to rate it lower than Nidoqueen just because the trades it forces are less valuable, but it does have a lot of immediate presence that must be respected. Snorlax would be so much better if it outsped Melmetal, DIB flinches suck ass, but it's really annoying to switch into and has great defensive utility as a strong Zam / Gar check that isn't passive as all hell like Alolan Muk.

B
Less to say about these guys, Starter Pika has nothing going for it defensively but it's great at revenge killing the faster Megas so I consider it viable enough. Primeape is honestly really good bc it's the main Fighter that actually annoys Mew but it tends to create awkward Timid Zap matchups when used as a breaker. Venomoth is broken but only I use it so I can't put it too high. Clef is a cool rocker and the only real Fairy which isn't that important because there's nothing you really need a Fairy for in this tier but it's got great coverage and can dent a lot of teams before going down. Chansey sucks ass and takes 40 from Zap's U-turn but there are some teams that really want the Zam counter. Don't use Toxic on it if you don't wanna get 1v1d by Gengar. Omastar is budget Cloyster but it works as a second Cloyster so it can be fun to mess around with it for that purpose. Alolan Sandslash has such a disappointing damage output but it can be a threatening breaker after an SD thanks to its perfect coverage, permanently walled by stuff like Starmie though which really sucks for it. Starter Eevee exists and Swirls and is a general residual pain in the ass but is definitely the worst case of an on-paper mon in the tier.

Anything lower than this is probably viable but I don't have adequate experience to really talk about their place in the current meta so I'm just not going to, but I encourage anyone who hasn't yet to put their personal VR here since I know Eve wants to get an update out for this pretty soon.
 
my-image.png


[i am not ranking mega and base forms separately, other than beedrill almost every mega has reasonable effectiveness in base form to make dual mega a potential option and i dont know how to capture that in a ranking system.]

S, S-

as everyone above has said, melm's defensive and offensive presence esp vs fastest megas is basically mandatory to any team, and mew maybe isnt needed but theres rarely if ever a reason not to use it.
zapdos is a huge offensive threat if specific checks are gone as well as being the only defensive melm check in the tier. it has the choice between a pivot set to gain momentum for the team or a substitute set which many of its standard checks struggle with or even outright lose to. teambuilding wise, zapdos has excellent synergy with gyarados as collette described extensively here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lets-go-overused-discussion-resources.3667865/#post-8588321 [and similarly blastoise], it is mandatory on m-bee teams as well as an additional pivot, and also supports zam and aero very well due to their poor melmetal matchups. so it fits well on the majority of teams
i would also be okay with mew being in zapdos rank rather than melm rank

A+

to me there isnt enough of a gap between any of the top four megas to justify separating any of them in different ranks. i dont rly have anything substantive to add to others' descriptions above.
i do tend to agree with lily that zam and aero are a bit above gyara and bee, but imo not by a full rank.

A

almost every team right now should have a ground type, and these are the first two to consider. if you want a ground type that sets stealth rock, u usually want nidoqueen, which has enough bulk to set rocks in front of almost anything if needed, checks pivot zapdos, and is sufficiently threatening with eq toxic and super fang. it also has the option to run jolly to outspeed the crowded 80-81 base speed tier, particularly on zam teams to eg get a super fang on mega gyarados, or to run dragon tail to prevent setup (cloyster) and punish switches; and maybe some other possibilities like sludge bomb for substitute zapdos, cloy, and the poison chance in general.
if you are using something else (ie mew) to set stealth rock, then dugtrio-a generally has the most to offer with its speed tier, ability to check all zapdos variants, and its steel typing which most notably makes it the only ground with a favorable matchup with alakazam. the sub + toxic sets that are increasing in usage can be very hard to deal with as dug-a sets a substitute freely against any zapdos without drill peck, while sucker punch provides rare priority that is useful against beedrill and zam. fitting all three moves and dropping rock slide could maybe be possible, as substitute sets often dont have any need to damage zapdos directly anyway, but this would prevent dug-a from being an effective switch-in to zapdos that run substitute.

A-

~ alolan muk is the tier's best general special tank, and dark is an excellent offensive type so it can be hard to switch into. however as lily said it gets worn down by zam/gar that it wants to check, hates burn, and really is not a good switch-in to almost any mew variant despite its typing; and also is generally forced out by every earthquake user other than melmetal, so it has momentum issues. foul play (does more damage to grounds and aero), acid armor or maybe self destruct are potential ways to improve its worse matchups or momentum, but for now i dont think it can be justified a higher ranking.
~ dragonite can sometimes be a dangerous sweeper, but tends to have issues with being forced to lock into outrage. an eq immunity is generally very desirable in this tier, but it cannot switch into either nidoking or aerodactyl so this utility is inconsistent. running fire blast lets it do much more damage to melm but requires dropping roost or eq on the standard set. dragonite has a very different toxic stall set (fire blast, toxic, roost) which can also run dragon tail in the fourth slot to force a lot of damage, which i encourage people to try. i think dnite can potentially rise if its versatility is proven more but right now it is a bit predictable and it is never really sweeping. the 4x ice weakness is very undesirable since ice coverage is common anyway bc of zapdos.
~ gengar is a very dangerous offensive threat as everyone above has elaborated, but it offers nothing defensively and the adequacy of its speed tier is somewhat matchup dependent. gengar has absolutely proven itself as deserving a place on many if not most m-alakazam teams, i haven't seen it to be all that effective outside of zam teams tho and that is the main reason i dont have it ranked as high as lily eve and collette do.
~ venusaur is an interesting mega option, its ability to check pivot zapdos and be a decent check to grounds opens up teambuilding options that other megas do not have. it also can be somewhat effective in base form alongside a fast mega such as alakazam. still, mega evolving venusaur means losing both the sweeping and wallbreaking power of any of the top four megas, while in base form it has poor physical bulk and no longer checks grounds. venusaur is a bit underexplored especially in teambuilding, idk i wasnt rly sure where to put it but toward the bottom of A- felt right for now.
~ poliwrath also feels awkward to evaluate its rank, but against most teams it will be a defensive check to melmetal and at least one other pokemon, and it contributes reasonably consistently as a toxic spreader so i think A- is okay for it. (personally i rarely use it)

B+

~ sandslash and nidoking are the two grounds u are most likely to want to use if not using queen or dug-a. sandslash is generally the best option for mega beedrill teams, where not being weak to earthquake and a favorable aero matchup is very desirable, while unlike rhydon/golem sandslash is still a very reliable rocks setter allowing mew to run a fire type move (which it cannot really do if used to set stealth rock). nidoking can be a good option on mega alakazam teams, as it threatens major damage to zam's checks with earthquake and/or megahorn, and megahorn in particular is very hard to switch into since the tier's common resistances to it have poor nidoking matchups.
~ cloyster is an excellent wallbreaker for zam teams, but it often has to set up on rock slide user which means a 27% chance to be flinched and not accomplish anything, and it faces competition from gengar.
~ persian-a continues to have low usage but excellent performance in tournaments. it has an excellent speed tier and solid stab move in foul play, utility in taunt to deny rocks and/or recovery, and u-turn. it has a bad matchup with the three fastest megas, and as a taunt user it does often depend on 50-50s, but these are really its only deficiencies. at this point it has only really seen use on m-beedrill teams, but imo it has definitely shown greater effectiveness than anything ranked lower and its 'current' placement in B- is far too low.
~ snorlax is an alternative special tank to muk-a, that isnt weak to earthquake and therefore usually has fewer momentum issues, as well as getting stab on self destruct. however, it lacks muk-a's resistances, normal is rly not a desirable offensive typing in the metagame, and it is slower than melmetal. while body slam is annoying to switch into, lax tends to be very dependent on the paralysis chance to be effective.

B

~ mega blastoise is a bit underexplored, it has a number of advantages to gyarados in addition to the primary feature of being a special attacker and therefore doing more damage to melm and not caring that much about burn. one is its lack of weakness to u-turn, which is a way that m-gyarados can easily get worn down, and also eg megahorn from nidoking or rapidash. another is priority aqua jet, which can be hard to fit but does decent damage to the three fast megas and in particular means that the m-beedrill matchup is perfectly fine. running dark pulse allows m-blastoise to run hydro pump without having pp issues against mew, while hydro + aqua jet also kos zapdos after rocks so it cannot switch in; however this comes at the cost of toxic and dragon tail to deal with poliwrath and m-gyarados switchins. the zam matchup is much worse compared to gyara but overall the lack of switchins to hydro pump on teams lacking two specific mons enables m-blastoise to be both a powerful wallbreaker while also providing the defensive benefits of a water type, much like gyarados.
~ i have starmie ranked lower than others do, it seems like it has potential but i need to see more from it. i think e(eve)e addressed its issues, the damage on an unstatused mew isnt rly adequate, water typing is good esp on something that isnt concerned about zapdos but it doesnt rly hit that hard, and it has major 4mss. its recovery is hard to actually use without a screen or status move, but then it tends to be vulnerable to status itself. its ok on zam teams running dual stab and toxic, toxic prevents mew from checking it and therefore can allow it to force damage on a target like muk-a.
~ egg-a is a valuable eq resist for certain teams, tho it doesnt help at all with nidoking so its a bit matchup dependent. it has generally decent matchups and also dragon tail, but outside of teams that specifically want the ground resist u cant rly justify the teamslot. i can see it in B or B-.
~ as lily said, zard x is a terrifying breaker in the tier, with fire stab a wide offensive movepool and also dragon tail to punish switches; but it is very hard to build with since it not only means losing out on one of the fast megas but it rly doesnt have the defensive utility that either venusaur or gyarados/blastoise do. (it isnt a terrible zapdos switch-in, but it does not like taking toxic). dual mega is rly not an option for it and its synergy with most faster non-megas is poor, it def has 'potential' to be higher but as of now its teambuilding issues rly hold it back and id need to see an effective zard x team to rank it higher.

B-

~ i am the only person who uses electrode rn but i absolutely think it has a place in the B ranks. its speed tier is obv very useful enabling it to be a late game cleaner for teams that do not use one of the three fastest megas, and in particular its ability to outspeed and ohko m-beedrill after rocks is excellent for m-gyarados teams. it puts pressure on opposing ground types as its thunderbolt often lacks switchins if the opposing ground is removed; and against m-beedrill teams switchins to foul play are limited allowing electrode to punish a m-beedrill ko and potentially countersweep.
electrode can be a bit prediction dependent as a taunt user tho not as much as persian-a. it is not splashable and it also has to be careful about when it chooses to come into play as bringing out electrode at the 'wrong' time can lead to a loss of momentum or being forced into an unfavorable 50/50. still, it absolutely has a place in the metagame. also to note that trode can be very affected by 'random' meta trends, most obviously adamant vs jolly mega aerodactyl, also adamant vs impish on grounds @ foul play damage.
~ primeape is the most relevant fighting type rn bc of u-turn, and has been getting a fair amount of use on m-bee teams as a pivot that threatens major damage to melmetal with low kick. its nothing amazing but it does its job on those teams and is not extremely niche in the way the C ranks are.
~ rhydon is a strong wallbreaker but it tends to be very prediction dependent bc of its bad speed and worse defensive typing. it is also not a good stealth rock setter, which means using it on a m-beedrill team prevents running fire blast or will-o-wisp on mew. idk, if it has more use and effectiveness with sub + megahorn i can reevaluate if i have dropped it too far lol.
~ rapidash and kingler are sort of similar to me, they are excellent wallbreakers, they really dont switch in and out their job generally is to come in on st they heavily threaten (eg melm for rapidash, ground for king) and force heavy damage. they should not be used to switch into anything and therefore can be a bit hard to fit on teams, but every so often they each offer desirable attributes for a specific team.


C+ (not rly ordered within the ranks after this point)

~ jolteon i find a bit hard to fit on a team, u will generally either be weak to at least one of the three offensive megas, or struggle too much with switching into grounds. if u specifically want an electric type for late game, u are generally better off with electrode's speed despite its ~50% weaker thunderbolt. however, jolt's general speed and power if grounds/venu are removed cant be ignored. jolteon has interesting synergy with aqua jet m-blastoise (dual electric), which rly appreciates screens and also has 'ok' priority for the fast megas.
~ golem has some advantages vs rhydon due to removing itself from play with explosion, eg if wisp mew burns rhydon as it clicks megahorn then it can just roost stall, but if it burns golem as it clicks explosion then mew has taken that damage and can be forced out without a chance to roost. also, golem is a bit less prediction dependent in a sense bc explosion hits everything very hard (except melm or gar which are terrible switchins otherwise), while rhydon tends to need to hit targets with the correct move (tho it can also run sub). regardless, they both have the same central issue of a terrible defensive typing and therefore being bad rocks setters and u-turn switchins.
~ sandslash-a has decent priority for the fast megas (and ofc also zapdos and dnite), and its rare steel typing offers many benefits including letting it check zam. theres decent flexibility for the last two slots after eq + ice shard, swords dance + x scissor is prob the best set 'generally' but eg counter, toxic, ice punch are options. it really is never sweeping without significant paralysis support, but it has the best priority in the tier outside of pika-s while also providing various defensive utility (its sort of like a worse melmetal), and really not having a lot of bad matchups with the exception of poliwrath and some mew variants. slash-a shouldnt switch into anything, and sometimes this mon can feel like u just wish u were using one of the ground types instead. i could see this potentially rising with more usage and if people can find clear team comps for it.
~ clefable feels rlyy awkward rn, a ground type rocks setter tends to be much more desirable due to their ability to practically get free turns vs zapdos, and outside of rocks as i think eve said it has generally decent matchups but it rly lacks any clear role, or reason to put it on a team.
~ eevee-s only gets so many turns and tends to rly struggle with zapdos. as eve said occassionally it looks rly good tho. idk could potentially rise but its sooo inconsistent rn, this feels like where it belongs for the moment
~ raichu-a rly struggles against dug-a teams, but otherwise it has a very spammable electric stab due to its ability to outspeed and hit other grounds/venu hard with psychic, and having options to prevent zapdos/mew roost stalling in encore, calm mind, toxic. it takes more damage than m-zam from u-turns but encore can help with this somewhat (ie if zap/mew comes in, use a damaging move first and then either lock it into roost or it has to pivot out without recovering). its rly inconsistent bc of its dug-a issue so ranking it next to eevee-s feels appropriate

C

~ i have only seen eve use mega pidgeot, its a mon that def has potential with heat wave toxic u-turn roost. (its movepool is tiny so its pretty limited to that, hyper beam is an option for a nuke but cant rly be used against teams with a setup sweeper, air slash can be used for flinch chance esp alongside toxic but otherwise its only a lil stronger than heat wave and coverage wise basically only hits poliwrath.) i think the biggest issue for mpidg is that almost the same set can be run by mew, mpidg having better speed, a slightly stronger fire move (~1.1x damage compared to mew's fblast) and a usually better defensive typing esp on roost turns, while mew has better bulk and is not weak to rocks which is obv important for a toxic stall pivot. personally i use toxic stall mew fairly frequently, but i have found it preferable to use the mew slot rather than the mega slot for that. still, mpidg has easily the best dug-a matchup of any mon in the tier, and def feels like it has enough to be viable tho its effectiveness still needs to be proven in practice
~ victreebel has several interesting features but it can be hard to justify over venusaur, which gets leech seed 'instead of' sd + sucker punch and even in base form is reasonably effective while also providing the flexibility of dual mega. the speed tier difference is also v significant. victreebel has most potential to outperform venusaur with paralysis support, which venu doesnt care about that much due to leech seed, as well as it conflicting with sludge bomb poison, but para support is hard to provide with any consistency in the current meta.
~ pika-s has been getting more usage, i still rly dislike it but it def has more relevance than everything in C-. zippy zap does ~1.5x the damage of sandslash-a's ice shard (which is slightly stronger than (modest) m-blastoise's aqua jet) to the three fastest megas, but its offensive presence is mediocre otherwise and it will rly struggle making progress against at least one of mew, zap, melm, venu, depending on its last two moveslots; and obv it has no bulk. 50% more damage is obv a lot but if u want a priority user to revenge the fast megas, i still think sandslash-a should 'generally' get strong consideration over pika-s since it is much more effective otherwise (its eq is reasonably strong even without stab, and having x-scissor for mew and gyara/mie), and also since it checks m-zam defensively anyway if zam is not in ice shard range. (or m-blastoise if u are ok with a priority user that takes up the mega slot)
~ chansey has been rly declining since mgar ban, i still think sing + teleport is its best set, by a lot, but it is obv inconsistent; and toxic sets cant do anything to gengar other than teleport out while twave leaves u walled by zapdos. (u could try toxic + fire move instead of stoss if u want but . yeah lol. the damage on melm is still pretty bad, and the damage on nidos is worse.) so please use sing if u are going to use chansey. u can beat zam 1v1 just with stoss anyway so u dont have to worry too much about activating sleep clause.
~ hitmonlee/machamp have ~interesting features, but it often feels like youd just rather have a ground type instead. one thing they can do much better than grounds is take on standard scald rocks mew, assuming they run facade (toxic + facade or bulk up + facade). machamp also checks (roost) m-aero, which grounds other than sandslash-k and to a lesser extent goldon do not do, while hitmonlee has a good speed tier. against teams without scald mew, hitmonlee is mostly outclassed by nidoking, while machamp is mostly worse than sandslash-k; the electric immunity is obv extremely valuable and the fighting types offer very little to make up for that. (eg while low kick / hjk do significantly more damage to melm than stab eq, eq generally does more than enough damage to melm to be favorable anyway. the greater damage does however make fighting types much more tolerant of burn, as their stab moves still do >30% to melm)

C-

~ dodrio's thrash is very strong esp at +2, while having jk for melm, but it is so frail and as usual normal is rly not a good attacking type. imo its not even clear that this is better than tauros, which doesnt have to lock in to dedge and therefore can toxic mew/zapdos to prevent roost stalling while also being able to hit melm with eq. anyway, i havent seen dodrio used in a rly long time.
~ pinsir basically requires dual mega, usually with aero, as its effectiveness depends on its ability to either raise its speed tier or keep its good defensive typing in base form. bulk up is still maybe a bit undertested as it can set up on quite a few things but regardless this mon is always going to be niche due to the extreme teambuilding constraints it presents.
~ dugtrio-k's niche (as explained well in collette's nomination) is to either hit 10% harder with adamant or reach a higher speed tier than dug-a can. however esp with the development of dug-a's substitute set(s), which dug-k cannot run as zap's u turn easily breaks the sub, i dont think theres a good reason to consider using this anymore. rly prob should be unranked
~ i put the three fringe special waters together, idk i think they are all a bit hard to justify but they have niches on paper. oma has no coverage for waters but it hits harder than cloy so it isnt truly dependent on shell smash, however unboosted it is just worse than eg vaporeon so it is sort of a weird middle ground. vaporeon prob could rise a bit higher, and it is a water type that can actually run scald if desired since it has shadow ball for mew, and a burned zapdos rly cant stall it either while also not ohkoing due to vaps excellent special bulk. however vap may be kind of hard to justify over eg kingler, which has a much stronger stab against anything other than melm. tentacruel has some interesting features, it is a poison type that outspeeds grounds other than dug-a and hits them hard with its water stab, when healthy it can force out standard zapdos with mirror coat, and counters scald mew. its dual stab has decent neutral coverage but tenta can be very prediction dependent, obv with coat but also in general hitting specific targets with toxic or the correct stab move. also its j very weak, eg hydro pump 3hkos melm. ive gone back and forth on whether it should be ranked, idk.
~ ninetales-a has a million obstacles, its outsped by a lot and also walled by melm, but its prob the tier's best np user besides mew, and it can set up pretty freely in front of muk-a and heavily threatens zapdos. its very questionable lol, if u want to use this consider playing uu instead.
 
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Eve

Bzzt!
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Community Leader
Making a small VR update before we get our ROA Spotlight Ladder in August! This purely consists of significant shifts that everybody recent poster here seems to agree on, as well as finally linking the available analyses for every Pokemon.

Rises
:alakazam-mega: A → A+
:gengar: B+ → A-
:cloyster: B → B+

Drops
:kangaskhan-mega: B- → C-

We'll be working on a proper VR update in the near future! If you're an experienced player and would like to participate, please get in touch on Discord.
 

LpZ

capy
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RUPL Champion
I was considering doing this when Seasonal ends but I just got eliminated :psysad:

So, into the nominations.


:SM/Blastoise-Mega: C+ to A+ : Yes, you got it right, I do think Blastoise is that big of a force in the meta, if you know me well enough in this tier you know I'm a huge (prob the biggest) sucker for Toise. A good while ago NEET asked me to make a kind of a meme team, and I put Blastoise there, little did I know that Mega Blastoise was hiding some amazing traits and that it had actual potential to be a huge threat. Me and the people from LGPE Discord had been talking about Toise and how absurdly great it could be on paper at least, so I gave it a try, in fact I've used Blastoise on at least 80% of my games since then and I came to this conclusion, Blastoise is a top tier Mega Evolution and worthy of a massive rise all the way to the A+ Rank. Since Blastoise is kinda of a new face to the tier, I'll talk about it a bit. Blastoise is the closest to a competition to Mega Gyarados, an old face once considered top 3 mega (at least by me), and in my opinion Blastoise is better and way more consistent than Gyarados nowadays, Gyarados is bulkier and immune to Psychic but Blastoise lacks the annoying U-turn weakness, threatens basically the same targets Gyarados use to threaten, it doesn't have the rocks weakness before mega evolving, isn't as annoyed by burn as Gyarados, and its main selling point: access to priority in Aqua Jet. Blastoise is also a decent Melmetal check (although the uptick of Thunder Wave Melmetal is annoying to it) and overall it has great bulk alloying it to basically not get OHKOd by any unboosted move other than Modest Zapdos Thunder and Adamant Eggy-A Power Whip, making it a one-time switch-in to things like Mega Aerodactyl and Dugtrio-Alola. It is one of the best progress makers in the whole tier, 2HKOing Melmetal with Surf or Hydro Pump, 2HKOing Mew with Dark Pulse, OHKOing Zapdos with Hydro Pump or Ice Beam into Aqua Jet after rocks, and basically 2HKOing the entire tier other than Mega Gyarados, Poliwrath and Vaporeon, Snorlax and Chansey, which all usually lack recovery, except Chansey who is a big passive blob and still takes a good 30%~ from Jet. Blastoise is already seeing huge success on the on-going Seasonal, surprisingly surpassing even Mega Aerodactyl in usage.

Pointing out some moments from Toise on this Seasonal so far:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1451166577 (Eve's Toise completely fisting on Flamethrower Mew (any non-Psychic Mew gets hard abused by Toise btw), while nothing but Snak's own Toise can really switch on its moves, initially negating Mew's Roost attempts then taking down both Muk and Duggy while taking a laughable 35% from Duggy's EQ, opening up Zapdos winpath.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1454755148-tu5hxtqcibwnhju33yl2cfrhckjhiz1pw (Just a good example of both Toises working overtime, we can also see Blastoise's Aqua Jet being decisive against Subs Duggy, Gyarados wouldn't have won that interaction on that exact situation.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1448310349-38onowxiw2k2msmxxm4fis7e14gog4qpw (I just wanted to include this replay to show how precious priority is on a tier without hazard removers and with few Pokemon with access to recovery, Aqua Jet picking off weakened Mew so it can avoid any type of damage before taking on another Pokemon and easily dispatching Gengar afterwards, Gyarados in question would have to take damage or being crippled with status to revengekill Mew on that situation.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1450118993 (Just Blastoise getting kills left and right, a total of 5 combining both Toises, pleasant to my eyes.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1450114753 (Lets suppose Elyoss's Toise was a Gyarados, on that moment when Eggy-A switch into Toise's Hydro lets suppose it came on a Gyara's Waterfall, Gyarados wouldn't be able to OHKO Eggy like Toise did, so Eggy would either force the 32% Mew early sack or weaken Zapdos, and weakening Zapdos was a recipe to open dnager's Blastoise winpath.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1451001190-f7vy64sg14o9ia2l25dyi4aq494pfsxpw (Toise abusing Scald Mew once again while not getting worried about burn like the other Water mega would, proceeding to kill it, taking a strong Dodrio's Thrash and then tanking a Duggy's Sucker Punch like a champ even though it doesn't resist it, worth noting how uncomfortable Venusaur was with directly switching into Blastoise after it revealed Ice Beam.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1443661612 (Blastoise cancelling Mew as per usual, taking Bee's U-turn quite well and 2HKOing one of the sturdiest specially defensive Pokemon (Muk).)

Embrace the future, Blastoise has been taking the meta by storm.

:SS/Alakazam-Mega: A+ to S- : People back in some time would be discussing what was the best mega, Aerodactyl or Alakazam, I guess most of us has already formed an opinion about Alakazam being the best out of the 2, but in my eyes Alakazam has been taking a way more consistent approach on making progress, Melm + Muk + Duggy has been showing up a lot lately and it is most likely the most consistent way of dealing with Zam, but any team lacking one of these usually have to play VERY carefully to not get their Zam checks damaged for free. Aerodactyl is an amazing progress maker as well but it relies more on getting turns right and it has more limited switching capabilities due to its Stealth Rocks weakness, yes it uses Roost but you usually don't wanna click it to give away momentum on most situations. So I feel like Zam is considerably more consistent than Aero.

:SS/Venusaur-Mega: A- to A or A+ : Venusaur is just an incredible disruptor with Leech Seed + Sleep meaning that nothing is a good switch-in to it, while it has excellent defensive prowess and at least enough speed to outpace Blastoise and Gyarados. The real pain I experienced myself vs Venu is when you bring a team without Zam or Psychic Mew, if you get the same unfortunate matchup, consider yourself screwed, as it will mess up your team in a second. Feel like A- is too low for such a unique and effective disruptor.

:SS/Exeggutor-Alola: B to B+ : It feels really awkward to fit on teams but it definitely has more to offer than Chansey, Clefable and Sandslash-A. First off it is a Duggy and Sludge Bombless Nidoqueen counter with a rather difficult coverage to switch into and it also has access to Stun Spore, it can force Rocks damage and chip things down with Dragon Tail while being capable of checking Zapdos even though being weak to U-turn is annoying.

:SS/Persian-Alola: B- to B : Actually annoying to switch into, Foul Play is just really strong in the tier and it is a great user of it, it can also prevent early rocks from anything other than Aero. Just generally better than everything on B- and prob better than the stuff on B. Ah and I also happen to be destroyed by one Persian on Seasonal.

:SS/Gyarados-Mega: A+ to A- : Gyarados has his own merits with its dual typing and superior bulk compared to Blastoise, but it just feels worse than Toise at making progress, it has nearly the same threat level as Toise to be honest but Toise just cares less about stuff like U-turn and burn and Rocks while also having priority to pick off weakened foes. It also just hasn't been doing that good lately on games. At least it is a very good Blastoise switch-in.

:SS/Poliwrath: A- to B : It is just so incredibly passive, clicking Toxic on Mew or Zapdos isn't even that big compared to what other mons can accomplish. Also Gyarados being worse means Poliwrath gets worse, as part of its niche is being a Gyarados check, although taking 35% from EQ is quite significant damage.

:SS/Dragonite: A to B+ : Dragonite is often really easy to deal with most of the time, Wisp Mew can deal with it on its own but it also has to lock itself on Outrage if it wants to do actual damage to Mew and Zapdos, then both can U-turn on it and bring in Melmetal to kill it with Ice Punch, it is that simple and it also means that Melmetal is taking big damage from a potential Earthquake or Fire Blast. Dragonite can still threaten weakened teams of course but those scenarios are usually not frequent from it and it just falls flat most of the time.

:SS/Charizard-Mega-Y: B- to UR : What does this thing even do that its counterpart Zard X cannot? Yea you are firing off STAB Fire Blasts from a 159 base SpAtk mon on a tier with a few Fire resists, true, and then what? You will prob use it as a sack for later or just toss it out as it can't enter the field again due to its 4x rocks weakness. Seriously, this is the worst mega in LGPE, and there is no reason to use it instead of Zard X, which has a MUCH better defensive typing and a more threatening dual STAB (and not 4x rocks weak).

Other noms I don't have much to say and I ran out of time to write:

:SS/Kingler: C+ to B-
:SS/Primeape: C to B-
:SS/Vaporeon: C to C+
:SS/Golem: C+ to B-
:SS/Clefable: B to B-
:SS/Sandslash-Alola: B to C+
 
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Eve

Bzzt!
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:ss/melmetal: :ss/mew:
It's time for a long-awaited full VR update in preparation for this year's LGPE Tournament Circuit (announcement coming soon)! Votes were made by myself, Collette, juoean, Lily, and LpZ. We decided to introduce both an S+ and C tier to better reflect the state of the metagame. Lower tier Pokemon are hard to get an entirely accurate measure on, so don't be too surprised if you disagree with them. You can see individual votes here. Most of the substantial changes in this update have been explained in above posts, for those curious.

Rises
:melmetal: S to S+
:mew: S to S+
:zapdos: S- to S
:alakazam-mega: A+ to S-
:dugtrio-alola: A to A+
:blastoise-mega: C+ to A+
:gengar::venusaur-mega: A- to A
:cloyster: B+ to A-
:exeggutor-alola: B to B+
:persian-alola: B- to B
:jolteon::kingler: C+ to B-
:vaporeon::pidgeot-mega: C- to C+
:pikachu-starter::primeape: C- to C
:tauros: UR to C

Drops
:gyarados-mega: A+ to A
:beedrill-mega: A+ to A-
:charizard-mega-x: A- to B+
:dragonite: A to B
:poliwrath::rhydon: A- to B
:clefable: B to B-
:electrode: B- to C+
:omastar: B- to C+
:dodrio: B- to C
:hitmonlee::pinsir-mega::raichu-alola::rapidash::slowbro-mega::victreebel: C+ to C
:gyarados: B- to C-
:arcanine::kabutops::ninetales:C- to UR
 
with seasonal signups about to open ig ill put notes regarding a few of my personal votes during the latest vr update.

~ alolan dugtrio to A+: this was pretty universally agreed on, this mon’s usage has been extremely high and for good reason. 1 mew is sooo much better at getting rocks up than any ground, and everyone is figuring out how to make do with the moveslot it takes up. 2 soft check to the best mega, always useful priority and ofc speed is generally worth sm more than what nidos offer.

~ alolan muk to A+: higher than others put it, but imo running a special tank is (once again) close to mandatory, and muk is ‘in general’ by far the best choice. it also benefits from the dominance of alolan duggy, as switching into muk is a nuisance for many teams that use dug as their ground type (or they have to use their own muk to trade with it).

~ cloyster to A: this rank was rly about dugtrio’s dominance for me, as dugtrio gives it a guaranteed setup opportunity (outside of the sub + hyper beam tech that idt has ever been used and obv is a huge cost to waste a moveslot on that), and difficulty setting up has always been cloy’s biggest issue.
also, more ‘hyper offense’ teams such as zam gar dug zap, that are very vulnerable to cloy.

~ alolan persian to A-: another mon that benefits a lot from duggy’s dominance. stab foul play kos dug after any chip such as a u-turn, and as always most teams lack good switchins to it. alolan persian also can cover for dugtrio’s inability to switch into muk, particularly on alakazam teams, and then muk either has to trade hits with persian leaving itself too weakened to check anything later, or preserving muk would require trying to switch into persian which generally means sacing something.
persian is also just a big offensive threat in itself to teams whose fastest mon is dug, particularly mega blastoise teams.

~ vaporeon to B/B-: this mon has only seen use in friendlies “recently”, but it has looked quite good to me. its ability to take a hit from +1 alakazam is notable, but it also j hits hard and trades w stuff well. compared to poliwrath, it doesnt have the resistances to muk/gyara’s crunch or maero’s rock slide, but also lacks the weaknesses esp to zam, so it doesnt have to switch in and out nearly as much (which is desirable in a more offensive meta). modest vaporeon hits quite hard, it can often just spam scald but also runs shadow ball for mew/starmie, as compared to poliwhirl which often relies on clicking toxic, vap hitting hard is generally worth more than landing toxic(s) in the current meta.

~ jolteon to B-: lacks recent usage even more so than vap, but it can be very dangerous to some teams, duggy is 2hkod by (modest) shadow ball so it is not a reliable response, jolt is also good at taking advantage of starmie and gengar. although jolteon isnt rly the best zapdos response, eg compared to trode which has taunt, it still should be ~good enough; and jolt does counter a zapdos that is already either burned or poisoned, or jolt can run toxic itself (or maybe yawn ig) if desired.

edit: realized i meant to comment on
~ alolan-exeggutor to B+: well i had this mon in A ranks not too long ago, but the rise in blastoise and to a lesser extent venusaur has not been favorable for it. nonetheless, it has quite good synergy with alolan-muk, with egg covering muk’s eq weakness and rly being good vs physical attackers generally, while muk covers special attackers esp gengar which is a big issue for eggy.
eggy is also extremely useful on zardx teams, to cover the aero and duggy weakness, and on beedrill teams for threatening melm and being much better at keeping up momentum than ground types are.

~ sandslash-k: the recent metagame developments couldnt have been worse for this mon lol. the special frailty is a bigger problem than ever, the lack of psychic weakness hardly helps when zam still does over 80% with psychic, nidos are actually better vs zam teams bc they can semi-check gengar, while they also dont give cloyster free setup, in fact sandslash is one of the few mons that lets cloy setup which is smth u have to account for in building, but obv unlike duggy it rly doesnt offer much in return for the cloy weakness.
then also theres the generally more offensive meta and shift away from using grounds to set rocks for that reason, bc mew is sm more reliable, and setting rocks decently well is a huge part of slash-k’s viability.
 
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figure id make a viability post before the final circuit tournament, not going to try to cover evthg j highlight certain mons and maybe sets

rising star(mie)s: i had this mon way too low on my vr last year, its an unambiguously top 4 non-mega after melm mew zap and imo has a genuine argument for being ranked above zapdos rn tho zapdos's pressure on the teambuilder is undeniable. as the metagame continually gets faster, starmie's 115 speed tier is invaluable, whether as the fastest mon on a slow-mega team, or alongside mega alakazam pressuring their shared checks, providing flexibility with revenge killing and in some cases even being able to function as a win condition against slower teams. its speed, passable physical bulk and typing make it one of the best checks to alolan dugtrio, and water typing is fantastic as always both defensively and offensively. starmie is also easily the most versatile mon in lgpe outside of mew, with movesets ranging from reflect, thunder + hydro, scald + hydro, etc; and the increasingly common thunder wave which not only protects from an alakazam sweep but can cripple pretty much every potential starmie check including mew, venusaur, gyarados if starmie lacks the appropriate coverage. im not sure how good of an option light screen really is given all the moves starmie wants to run, but it poses significant problems for a lot of mega blastoise structures as stoise cant break thru ls starmie at all 1v1, while also providing some protection from mzam, and it might be relevant vs zapdos in some spots as well idk.
i think i had previously seen starmie as competing with all the other water types but it really doesnt, i think starmie actually synergizes well with pretty much every other prominent water type, a ground is already near-mandatory once u are running a slow water anyway, the jolteon weakness is pretty bad but otherwise it rly works quite well.
overall the combination of offensive threat, defensive utility, and support for teammates with twave and screens, starmie belongs on at least as many if not more teams than zapdos, with any mega evolution other than aero it should be one of the first mons you consider adding to your team (and its prob solid on aero teams too but idt i have seen aero + mie and it seems less intuitive to me idk, maybe thats just me and aero teams tho lmao).

clefable and jolteon both these mons were already 'on the radar' of most of council as of last vr update but neither had rly seen enough use yet to say for sure, now the usage has gone up and they have both absolutely proven themselves as ou-tier mons. clefable is the clear second best stealth rock setter in the tier rn, nothing can deny it rocks outside of the rare taunt, and in general it can just lead and set rocks t1 without much if any disadvantage, freeing up a moveslot for mew either to run its dangerous sweeper sets or just run the 'old standard' uturn psy wisp. it also is if anything advantageous against any non-taunt stealth rock mew, ie against the most common rocks setter in the tier. clefable ofc does get ohkod by melm but anti leading melm tends to be a bit high risk low reward, as switching into melm is much more manageable without rocks up, and melm's hp is ofc crucial to preserve most times so sacing rocks for big damage on melm can potentially be a play for the clef user anyway, depending on teams. idk i havent seen much of using melm to anti-lead clef, so maybe that will turn out to be a good option to punish clef usage but as of now i dont think its a big issue. vs basically anything else it can twave + rocks and provide more than enough to justify the teamslot. overall, clefable has had great results and prob looks to be around B+ in the next vr update.
jolteon is one of the most dangerous offensive pokemon in the metagame right now, particularly against water-mega teams but also in general. alolan dug being by far the most common ground means that jolteon can 2hko every mon against most teams that arent venu + chansey; and in particular jolt is the best revenge killer of starmie, while also threatening mew very well and being a soft check to zapdos. it is really the only pokemon that can tear apart starmie + dugtrio-a + zapdos cores, and ofc its speed tier leaves it only outsped by zam/aero, the rare kanto-dug, and the even rarer mbee or mpidg. even in bad matchups like venu chansey, jolteon still isnt deadweight due to yawn. and while on paper jolt has a lot of trouble with nidoqueen, queen is usually tasked with setting rocks and since delaying rocks a long time isnt generally an option, it isnt too hard to make sure queen drops into or near jolt range getting up rocks. jolt's paralysis immunity and lack of weakness to uturn are also very nice features, particularly for the mew and starmie matchups. somalia brought jolteon in all six games of the summer seasonal final vs soulwind, and jolteon has seen consistent use since then, it really hasnt had any bad performances and has rly torn teams apart in numerous games. i think theres still room for jolt to rise in usage, esp with starmie's dominance. i do think that jolteon maybe isnt being prepped for as much right now but its really hard for a lot of teams to prep for jolt without ruining (every other matchup) due to jolt's excellent matchups vs pretty much all the top mons of the lgpe ou tier.

dugtrio-kanto tldr speed keeps getting more important, outspeeding jolteon and starmie instead of being slower than them is a big deal, as well as ofc outspeeding gengar and alolan dug. u lose key resistances vs zam and zapdos but the benefits are worth serious consideration on many teams. the mon still hasnt seen that much use, and i do think esp for water mega teams (which would really appreciate the speed tier) it can be hard to fit in the builder without becoming too weak to zam and/or zap, but kanto dug is definitely a on-the-radar mon for me rn.
vaporeon i mean i was alr saying this last year but this mon is good, its usage is still mostly limited to either my teams or teams that i have helped with in some way lol but it has been consistently effective pretty much whenever its been used, and occasionally it really goes off. it also has quite nice synergy with thunder wave starmie, with twave crippling mons such as mew/stoise for vap, while vap can force more than enough damage on zapdos with its powerful surf and/or predicting with yawn to leave it a non-threat for starmie later. im not sure if u can justify vaporeon over starmie but the same goes for any non-mega water really, water typing is busted as always and combined with vaps matchups vs stoise and zam, if u want a sort of generic bulky sixth with good matchups across the board vap is your pick. (i think vap can maybe be described as filling the roles a pokemon like snorlax is intended to fill but snorlax just rly didnt work even before the rise of +speed melm; if u want a special tank but one that doesnt have the eq weakness of alolan muk/chansey, and in general has a more balanced matchup spread, vap is the first mon to consider.)

ok this is all for now lol, maybe ill say something later about some mons that have fallen way off (nidoqueen and snorlax i think are the biggest two, well and ofc mega bee which is pretty much left to just fishing for egg-chansey mus now and mega zard which is rly just unviable), and/or maybe comment on some new or new-ish movesets such as psy wave rocks mew.
 

LpZ

capy
is a Tiering Contributor
RUPL Champion
Hello everyone, after 2 years and 10 days I decided to revisit this in the most recent no zam tour and I found the most recent changes and adaptations interesting, I have no idea if this is too early to do that but I wanna talk a little about the mons and how I would rank them after the zam ban.

S+
:melmetal: - Imo still holds together teams way too well to afford dropping in basically any team (until I get proven wrong), most of what i say here was already said by Eve on her post but no zam means we don't need to be so conservative with Melms HP anymore and we can actually start hitting stuff, ofc in Aero situations you still want that HP but its much easier to do that vs it than vs Zam.
:mew: - Got even better without Zam, still the best rocker in the tier, very useful pivot with a wide pool of options but what changed is how NP Mew looks much better now, Zam used to be annoying for any type of setup Mew sets but now that it is gone NP is a massive threat rn, mainly taking into account the amount of Venu to set up on and how less common AMuk is.

S
:zapdos: - Wouldn't change its placing at all, prob got even better as non-Dug grounds are easier to use now, also the surge on Venu usage def makes me recommend yall to run Drill Peck more often, I find it p useful especially when Melms are not as scared of you anymore in many mus to force Reflect too much, I also respect Toxic Zap to give you the upper hand on mirrors and vs Mew as not only I've been but I saw others get stuck into Zap wars often.

A+
:aerodactyl-mega: - Got the upgrade due to the fact it is now the fastest most viable mon, only tying with Electrode and I'd say it is now the best mega of the tier, just not to the level Mega Zam used to be so I'd still keep it in A+, one thing is that Venu being so common means Wing Attack is very hard to drop rn, meaning you would lack Roost and thus having some longevity problems, being prone to being picked off by priority such as Duggys Sucker and Toises AJet. Still a mon that dictates the pace of games quite a lot as teams gotta be real careful with HP management otherwise this thing can simply clean.
:blastoise-mega: - My kid is still a champ, other than Venus surge being a bit of an annoyance for it its still a great mon that simply punishes common teams with no water resists, and Starmie doesn't exactly count. Thing is that Ice Beam is mandatory on it now so it is a bit less flexible, it wasn't too bothered by Zam anyways but it appreciates Aero being even better.
:dugtrio-alola: - Got worse with the departure of Zam as it used to help checking it but I'm not sure if enough to warrant a drop, it isn't without its benefits tho as I at least don't consider Sucker not nearly as important anymore, SubTox is very annoying to basically any team and id even say it has more room to run Rocks so your Mew can run other sets like the uprising NP sets.
:venusaur-mega: (A to A+) - I think many people would agree with me, the one thing keeping Venu teams away of the absolute spotlight were the Zam teams, everything else was at least an even matchup for Venu. Now Venu can roam free without worrying of Zam and has much more stuff for it to get an opportunity to come in, its the mon that has been forcing adaptations to accomodate the mu the most and should be given the appropriate respect for it.

A
:beedrill-mega: (A- to A) - IT IS SO BACK, I consider this to be the 4th best mega and altho that is kinda an achievement it is still the root of the problem for it, its hard using it when the big 3 are better but i considerable margin (imo), but it is free from getting destroyed by Zam teams everytime, it also appreciates being the 2nd fastest mega, the Venu surge as it is an ok check to Venu and to be a solid check to the NP Mew sets, being faster and directly threatening to it is a rare asset to have.
:gengar: - Lost its best partner Zam but it appreciates the decrease in Muk usage, it also acts as an ok Venu check and as Beedrill it has the asset of being faster than Mew and directly threatening it, altho you gotta be careful cuz it is a bit of chip to kill it with SBall, I also recommend running it with Psychic so you get the most out of a Venu check and its also useful to hit Nidos.
:gyarados-mega: - Always a weird mon for me, I can't tell how it feels with Zam gone cuz like, it was a "check" to it but it always feels extremely weird to manage its HP, taking rocks pre-mega is a big deal to it and it doesn't like Mew setting em up this early and then taking 25 from U-turn, anyways it is annoyed by Venu but it is amongst the best Toise checks available so it should be around here.
:nidoqueen: - Def got better with Zam gone but the A rank seems appropriate for it, not too much to say about it this time.
:starmie: (A- to A) - Imo it deserved to be A even before Zams departure but being a water that can exert pressure on Venu with Psychic and Toise + Gyara with Tbolt is simply amazing, I don't think it is too good anymore as a sole Melm switch-in but even when you run it alongside Zap you have very pleasant results, interactions vs Mew are awkward as hell tho.

A-
:charizard-mega-x: (B+ to A-) - Best mega into Venu and it is a solid mega, it HEAVILY appreciates Zam gone as it completely outclassed it as a special breaker and easily rkd Zard while giving trouble to the rest of its common partners. I honestly prefer it with Toxic to make Mew interactions less awkward as Fire Blast and Dragon Pulse already do the rest of the job altho DTail is still solid, imo it has a slightly easier time leading too to get around the rocks weakness than Gyara but it maintains the rocks weakness unlike Gyara and other than checking Zapdos (which is shaky cuz of the rocks weakness and getting it in on U-turn) it doesn't have crazy defensive utility as the top megas.
:muk-alola: (A to A-) - I think this one was obvious although I think this is gonna be a temporary nom, NP Mew sets starting to become realistic threats and Venu being prominent will maybe help Muk find more spots on teams.

B+
:aerodactyl: (B to B+) - As I've said 2 years ago, this mon needs more respect and MAYBE it has been getting some lately as it got some usage this tour outside of myself using it. This mon has serious value as a lead with Rocks and Taunt, something that no other mon is capable of doing, stopping early rocks from literally any rocker while setting up your own is big for going offensive and freeing up Mew slots, and many times it can set rocks up, stop opposing rocks AND deal some damage before falling, and it is favored by LGPE's nature of how advantageous setting rocks up early is.
:cloyster: (A- to B+) - Contrary to Gengar, Cloyster misses Zam as a partner A LOT, it has other partners to help with breaking and in right scenarios it can sweep but the lack of a purpose as solid as it had with Zam makes it considerably harder to slot onto teams.
:nidoking: - Appreciates Zam gone for sure but its not as sturdy of a Zap check nowadays cuz of Drill Peck variants, which is not that uncommon anymore, leaving it with even less defensive value, offensively its solid and with Zam gone it lost one of the best rkers to it which is a net positive, shouldn't move rankings tho imo.
:rhydon: (B to B+) - Def better without Zam and Duggys becoming a bit less important, pretty good at abusing Zapdos as not even Drill Peck hurts but its still not that hard to deal with due to the exploitable typing and the low SpDef but nowadays its the best at abusing Zapdos and having one less great rker is great.
:snorlax: - Still a solid special tank but def misses Zam, it used to be one of the main mons it was tasked to check without being passive but I don't have a whole lot of experience with it post-Zam so Idk how far I can go with this, I can see it being B but I won't nom for it yet.

B
:clefable: (B- to B) - It has enough bulk to guarantee rocks 90% of the time, it even lives a Mega Venu Sludge Bomb, and if you decide to just trade rocks with it this mon can get very annoying with Moonblast, Fire Blast and TWave/Calm Mind, Zam situation doesn't change its effectiveness, unless you count that its easier to slot it onto teams instead of dedicated Zam checks.
:dragonite: - Still mid, Zam situation doesn't change much and even if Zam going makes it easier to slot other stuff, Dnite is prob not the one you are considering the most, you still deal with it the same way we always did.
:exeggutor-alola: (B+ to B) - Imo it lost way more than it won with this new meta, Aero running Wing Attack all the time, Venus surge, every Toise being Ice Beam, Bee BEEing common, some Zapdos running Drill Peck, Duggy not being as important as it was. Sounds like hell for it ngl.
:jolteon: (B- to B) - Imo it deserves to be here, ok check to Zapdos while being annoying to Duggy and Rhydon, setting up screens and/or threatening to spread Toxic or spamming Yawn to be real annoying (its very hard to wake asleep mons up once they are asleep). Useful speed too as it outspeeds everything but MAero and Trode and it ties with Adamant Bee, being able to rk Toise, Starmie and Gengar.
:persian-alola: - Used to be a cool partner to Zam but at least it is still a cool partner to Bee, which got better, forming a volturn core with Bee and Foul Play being generally annoying to switch into while it can also stop some early rocks with Taunt to help Bee out. This shift balanced out things for it.
:poliwrath: - Appreciates Zam gone quite a lot, it also is amongst the best Toise and Gyara checks in the whole thing, but goddamn it HATES Venu rn, venu being able to get the HP it took from SToss or Ice Punch back with Leech or Mega Drain while also being very threatening to basically everything back and it being immune to Toxic just stonewalls Wrath, also Wing Attack Aero is annoying for it. Another mon that won in a sense but lost in another.
:sandslash: (B- to B) - Exclusively a Bee partner, Bee gets happy Sandslash gets happy.

B-
:chansey:(B to B-) - Was exclusively viable cuz of Zam imo, now it might be cool into NP Mew but that is already too specific, Aero shits on it, Toise AJet funnily enough chunks it quite a bit, Venu beats it with Leech Seed healing a million and poison being annoying and overall there are just too few stuff for it to check.
:eevee-starter: - Zam gone is ok for it but it doesn't really change things too much, its more commonly seen as a Rest Gyara partner as it wakes it up and stuff but imo its about the same mon.
:electrode: (C+ to B-) - Kinda similar to Jolteon as a Zap check but it is even faster, outspeeds Adamant MAero and any Bee so it has an uncontestable speed while it packs Foul Play to annoy grounds and it has Taunt. Zam thing doesn't change much but it deserves a bit more respect imo.
:kingler: - I invite juoean to vouch for it, I don't have much to say. Seems to have a very useful physical bulk to allow it to be annoying with Crabhammer, X-Scissor for Mew and Eggy and Superpower for Melm and MGyara with Agility to allow for cleaning potential, and well it has seen games where it was a real issue.
:pidgeot-mega: - I think every mega got at least a bit of value with Zam gone, this one not being different, also I've seen it being annoying before with Heat Wave U-turn Tox Roost altho I know Air Slash could be useful as a STAB that can get some flinches and hit Venu and the waters harder. Also Zam being a rker not a thing anymore.
:vaporeon: (C+ to B-) - I experimented with it on a Zard team to solid results, it is a compression thing that can be convenient for some teams as it has solid bulk, hits hard enough to be a nuisance and Surf Ice Beam SBall is a great combination to hit Venu and Mew while your 4th slot can be more flexible between Toxic (my preference), Yawn, Hydro Pump, Reflect or even Quick Attack. Being a pure water on non-Toise teams has some value as it lacks the weaknesses psychic has in case of Starmie, not being threatened by Gyaras and Aero Crunches and the many any many U-turns the tier features.

Not gonna explain the things on C but I'll leave the visual personal VR (unordered).

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Eve

Bzzt!
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Community Leader
So my personal rankings are a little different lol
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Would like to note that basically everything here is subject to change, there are several mons here that are on the edge between two tiers imo.

S+ Rank
Mew and Melmetal are

S Rank
Zapdos is

A+ Rank
I agree that Aero is the best Mega Evolution, followed by Blastoise. I do not agree about Mega Venusaur being on the same level as these two as it struggles more with natural inclusions to most teams than those two do, is more capable of folding to offensive pressure, and is substantially more prediction reliant. I think Dugtrio-Alola and Starmie are both amazing still and provide Speed control to Blastoise, Venusaur, and Gyarados teams that really need it. I'd have considered Starmie an S- candidate before the Mega Alakazam ban, but it's still great after, especially with it being the fastest Pokemon in more matchups than it previously was.

A Rank
Mega Beedrill is so good oh my god. Imagine having about 70% of the usage of Mega Venusaur but having 33% more wins than it anyway, utter chad. I think what it does is less reliant on prediction play than the megas below, hence it edging them out, but it's pretty close. I can't decide which of Gyara or Venu i think is better so just pretend they're in the same spot, everyone's super prepped for Venu right now but Gyara has its obvious HP management issues that LpZ touched on.

A- Rank
Rhydon is actually really good I promise. No MZam making Dugtrios the only Grounds? Neat. More (Drill Peck) Zapdos? Great. More spammable ways to pivot it in (e.g. Bee)? Epic. More Beedrill and Aerodactyl for it to help vs? Very cool! In general, Rhydon is fantastic at forcing progress in a more bulky metagame than the prior one, and helps keeps a lot of big threats in check and alleviate pressure from your Melmetal. Gengar is Gengar and kills stuff real good and especially kills Nasty Plot Mew, really enjoys less Special walls too, but it's kind of a luxury mon because it's hard to fit on teams, could be lower tbh. Alolan Muk can kinda just check like 90% of the tier if you need it to but it's not going to hardcheck any boxes for you in this meta, still threatening though.

B+ Rank
Jolteon my beloved. If Starmie is the fastest Pokemon in a lot of matchups, Jolteon is the fastest in even more AND kills Starmie. Very good into Water megas and has ways to apply pressure to its checks or ease switching into them with screens. Helps check setup Mew with Shadow Ball or status. Can occasionally need some prediction to get stuff done and hates Nidoqueen but it's workable. Clefable is a safe Stealth Rock setter that isn't Mew, just not quite as safe as it used to be because Mega Beedrill exists. Still very good and splashable though. Nidoking has a vital Speed tier jump from Nidoqueen which i really value right now, lets it get the jump on all of Blastoise, Venusaur, and Gyarados, massively useful in the lategame. It's legitimately threatening too, imagine if Alolan Dugtrio had whatever coverage it wanted. If you build smartly it can be an ok rocker. Alolan Exeggutor dislikes a lot of the meta changes but I still think resisting Ground and using that entry point to cause chaos is universally useful, could potentially be one subrank lower though?? Poliwrath loves more Water mega usage, doesn't like Venusaur much, doesn't especially enjoy more TPunch Melm, it's very usable and solid though. Aerodactyl is greedy Clefable, could be one subrank lower idk.

B Rank
Nidoqueen is alright, she could be ranked with Nidoking probably lol. Snorlax can have passivity issues but it's occasionally the best Pokemon ever if the stars align. Alolan Persian is good with the Bee and maybe even other comps that want it to pick off setup Mew or Alolan Dugtrio, I think it's back in business. Vaporeon is angry Poliwrath, trades the useful resistances for a license to kill and Yawn. Cloyster is fundamentally solid but lost the only Mega that really wants to employ it and the ones it hates are more common, hesitantly saying it's still alright but idk where you run it or why you run it??? Chansey has way less of a job now and its flaws aren't really worth it when there's not the payoff of stuffing MZam, but you can use it ig. Could drop.

Everything below B is what I'd consider UU/UUBL and I don't want to waste time on them except Mega Charizard X and Dragonite. I don't get why you'd run Mega Charizard X, it has poor matchups into every Mega bar Venu, which is an okay matchup at best if you somehow get them to click Mega Drain every time you switch in. Its Speed tier is awkward, its offensive potential is very reliant on Dragon Tail predicts, and its STAB is more likely to miss than any other Mega's. Its defensive utility is pretty poor given its Stealth Rock weakness and vulnerability to Earthquake and basically any decently strong neutral special attack, as well as every status condition bar Burn. I'd put it about on par with Mega Pidgeot for use cases and effectiveness. Dragonite is kinda just not used, and when it is used it loses. Even more Zapdos is bad news because Zapdos forces it into Outrage and then it dies to Melmetal, and more bulky Megas and Rhydon that can soft check it is bad too. Dragonite's movepool means there's always ways it could theoretically get around this stuff but it's kinda impossible to actually fit stuff on a set. I'd love to be proven wrong as I was the OG Dragonite fan but it's not doing anything lol
 
my initial vr (i saw at least most of the replays before they were lost but i think i did miss a couple sets)


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mega evo rankings:

agreement w eve and lpz on mega aerodactyl as the best mega, by quite a bit to me. its speed perfect coverage and sufficient power are obv all very good traits, and its defensive utility cannot be discounted either, particularly switching into dugtrio earthquakes, and being able to come into and fight a statused bulk up mew is a very nice trait to have as well. ofc it isnt perfect, not the best mu vs water megas and has to choose between roost and wing attack, the water mega mu is relatively easy to compensate for with teammates tho bc using a water mega inherently limits the opponent's speed options, and largely same goes for the venu matchup if you drop wing attack. fast teammates such as gengar and starmie can rly flip the dynamics of the matchup vs the slower mega evolutions.
as always aero can have some prediction issues eg melmetal coming into a rock slide aimed at zapdos pretty freely, that plus the stealth rock weakness are the biggest things holding it back to me but its still in its own tier for me as a mega.

the next three are very close to me, but i have mbeedrill second for its nice natural advantage vs the slower megas, while tbc still being decently useful in the aero mu for gaining momentum vs starmie and mew. the defensive utility vs venusaur is also notable, tbc i wouldnt exaggerate this as switching bee into venu isnt anything great a lot of the time but it does give you lines for venu weak teammates. only having one faster mega to prep for instead of two is such a big + and you have several synergistic options for improving the aerodactyl matchup, most notably imo kingler.

mega venusaur comes next for me, but this mon is very hard to capture in a VR for me due to how good it also is in base form. sabelette ran through second-finals with aero + venu despite bad rng and a showdown glitch and ofc it is early and a lot remains to be seen but this pairing is very nasty on paper, with venusaur's presence completely turning the mblastoise matchup on its head, while also having a lot of use against opposing venu as venu can come in on opp venu's most clicked moves, and even without prediction can deny all forms of recovery to opposing venu allowing you to continually wear it down with stealth rock until it can no longer do its jobs. anyway putting aero + venu aside, venu is a great mega on its own, doesnt rly have any bad mega matchups per se, and as usual loves to capitalize on stuff like non-drill peck zapdos non-psychic mew etc. however the fourth moveslot is rly tough, without reflect venusaur gets relatively easily forced out by melm and to a lesser extent other physical threats, and venu is not a mon that likes to switch in and out repeatedly bc it rly gets worn down by stealth rock. while if you run reflect then you lack a move to break gengar's substitute as well as a bit more issues vs mons like muk and beedrill. u can also play the sleep powder lottery which can sort of fill the roles of both eq and reflect but idk i dont like how it plays most of the time i could be underrating it tho, & ofc sleep powder still cant break gengars sub. gengar is a big issue in general really as eq is hard to click even if u have it, and gengar is obviously not a mon u want to give free turns to. and just as venu has its matchups vs non-dp zapdos etc that it can really get an advantage off of, it also can be quite middling if the opposing team doesnt have mons that give it those relatively free turns. and ofc like any slow mega it can have issues in the teambuilder, without access to any non-electrode fast mons (except when u run it as dual mega with aero ofc lol) while also sometimes wanting additional slow mons to shore up defensively eg if you want a snorlax or muk to help protect you from nasty plot mew and gengar.

i understand why others put it higher but i dont like stoise as much, it has neither venu's defensive utility nor the speed (and its not rly suited to dual mega either) so even in the theoretically positive aerodactyl mu it can struggles a lot with the other fast mons like starmie/gengar and ofc jolteon can can be an even bigger threat. opposing nasty plot mew can be a big problem too imo. but just in general it gets in range of everything relatively quickly and aqua jet is not quite enough to compensate for that to me. as with venu it can have trouble in the builder with fitting both defensive teammates and enough speed to not get run over (by fast teams and/or by nasty plot mew). also, as a slow water mega it really mandates a firm zap answer and if that ground is adug then you are again worsening your aero mu while rhydon means more speed issues.
and ofc, not being able to click surf freely if theres a venu on the other side, but at least u can pressure venu to click mega drain which you can reply to with mons like gengar or to a lesser extent dpeck zapdos.
i used some water spam with twave mew early in tour and it seemed alright but def has significant vulnerabilities in mbee and ofc venu.

gyara fifth for me, still a real mega ofc unlike anything below and a water mega that isnt significantly worried about venu is nice but theres ofc more beedrill, more wisp rocks mew and less psy + twave mew with zam gone, most sets that it walls like np fire psy mew are already deterred by starmie, and you have a very good alternative for a anti-stoise pick in mega venu. lastly as far as the aero mu stoise's aqua jet as well as not taking 25% from the first SR make a big difference there, gyara gets into aero range relatively quickly. so overall i dont rly find a whole lot of reasons to prefer gyara over the other options, and theres that one huge reason to not use it (unless you are pairing it with electrode or maybe aero which come with their own problems). also u rly want to consider jolly to outspeed venu but giving up adamant's damage also sucks.

non mega evo rankings:

mew melm self explanatory.

S ~ as the council member who p consistently rates zapdos a bit lower, it def feels like it has to be #3 rn, partly bc its ground type checks all have pretty significant issues, therefore there are more reasons to go groundless where ofc zapdos rly shines and even when u dont all the grounds are exploitable. no drill peck means giving momentum to venusaur while no reflect can get you in trouble vs rhydon but either of these vulernabilities are relatively manageable with teammates.
however, i will say that i considered both having zapdos at the top of A+ rather than S- as well as moving gengar up to S- alongside it. even in groundless matchups zapdos's ceiling is often not that high due to its middling speed tier and stealth rock weakness, and when there is an opposing ground zap is always at least a bit prediction reliant and the cost of not getting your uturn predicts is imo overall comparable to the reward when u do get them. (the possibility of twave zapdos in order to maximize your threat against ground weak teams by eg being able to roost for fps to stay healthy, is interesting but im not rly factoring that into my ranking / perception of the mon.)
nonetheless its a very dangerous mon and for the teambuilder centralization alone i think it has to be #3. also when u compare to gengar and starmie, while all of them are revenged by mega aero zapdos does still get to force those 50/50s of hard melmetal on melmetal on rock slide so it is less vulnerable on that front, as well as being able to help out vs mega beedrill which starmie obv has a severe weakness to.

A+ ~ obviously my gengar placement is quite a bit higher than eve or lpz's, it offers so much not just offensively but also providing key utility, has to be #4 for me. its power level against mew is obviously unmatched, and btw a decrease in twave rocks mew also makes it an interesting anti-lead option (whereas in zam meta half the time youd just get twaved and then mew gets rocks up anyway & u accomplished nothing.), with neutral-spdef clefable also not really being able to click twave vs gengar bc of usually dying to a sludge bomb that lands poison on top of the substitute risk.
on aerodactyl teams, gengar's weakness to dugtrio eq is covered while in return gengar can switch into reflect venusaur, as well as being a big threat to water mega teams with its speed and power. another fast attacker that is great at pressuring zapdos is also very nice for aero teams, and as usual a melmetal or rhydon that fights gengar will quickly or immediately be in aero range respectively. also maero can switch into muk's crunch for gengar to some extent, cant really switch into foul play tho so there is an asterisk there. but overall imo gengar is worth the on almost any aero team.
on beedrill teams a lot of the same things apply minus aero's ability to switch into dugtrio's eq, the anti lead role is maybe gengar's biggest place there (eg lead beedrill vs mew and uturn into gengar) since bee ofc rly loves rocks not being up.
and on slow-mega teams, gengar provides crucial nasty plot mew protection / protection from setup mews in general tho it is ofc shakier vs the occasional cm mew or bulk up amnesia rest mews, which no other 110+ speed mon rly provides other than alolan persian, and maybe twave starmie on gyarados teams specifically. again the slower megas have more builder pressure so u may not use it as much but. the 4x uturn resist is also something that very much has value here to make the bee mu a bit more manageable with prediction esp since bee teams may often not have any second mon that is faster than gengar. gengar does so many things and is an easy #4 from my pov.
oh also in terms of revenge killing gengar, maero is weak to stealth rock so not an ideal revenger, and starmie can to some extent be answered by your own mie on either stab or a decently healthy mew on psychic. and adug is a speed tie plus eq lets in aero free. overall these are comparatively not bad situations compared to, say, something that can be revenge killed by gengar which isnt weak to rocks and has no switchins whatsoever besides muk lol.
ofc gengar can be a bit bad in endgames, want to use it early-mid game as much as possible in most matchups for sure.
starmie is still starmie, we all p much know what this mon does so not gonna go into detail rly. one thing i will say is i dont rly agree that it has to be dual stab electric move recover, twave over electric move or over psychic are perfectly fine options imo, with advantages and disadvantages. it exacerabtes the beedrill weakness for non-aerodactyl teams tho, and imo it can have more competition with other waters especially kingler on such teams. overall great mon and way better than any of the stuff below it.

A ~ mzam is gone but alolan muk has unique valuable defensive utility vs nasty plot mew and gengar while being a good offensive threat as usual. dugtrioss and rhydon being the prominent grounds is a + for amuk as usual, and facing groundless generally even better. and as always has enough speed to outrun paralyzed mew unlike other slow wallbreakers like rhydon. i was using fblast drain fplay toxic but that leaves u doing very poor damage to a gengar that lands will o wisp so double dark is probably better lol.
i realize my kingler ranking is extremely high but i think its deserved. fast aero teams are the gold standard to me rn, the biggest threat to fast teams is speed boosters and kingler is the best one. while it is deadweight against mega venu and a subpar mon against mega blastoise, these once again are often easier matchups to prepare for in other reasons since they limit the opposing teams speed. kingler is an auto-pick to me on any mega beedrill team, where the ability to turn the tables in the mega aero matchup is invaluable, and where you already have something that can switch into mega venu for it, while also being a good option for other builds where u already feel good about your mus vs venu and stoise and want something to improve the aero matchup.
and as usual kingler also can function quite well as a midgame breaker rather than always being a sweeper, with a good melm mu, and is ofc good at pressuring grounds other than sludge bomb nidos, particularly rhydon which might be used to check beedrill, and get a very strong hit off, everyone who has played with or against this mon knows how hard crabhammer hits neutral targets and xscissor for the various bug weak water resists. ofc prediction can be more important if you arent boosting with agility tho (but even starmie doesnt really like taking crabhammer)
kingler is always a mon that can rly fluctuate with the meta winds, for example if aero + venu dual mega rises that could potentially be a problem for it. tho with base venu's lower bulk it is still taking >30% from crabhammer or xscissor (while if u chose to keep aero in base form instead then it wouldnt outspeed bee), so even there kingler might be p decent. and stuff like toxic vs twave on melm can ofc make a big difference for kingler since toxic melm can be an agility endgame opportunity.
only real hesitancy abt this ranking is that other players havent rly been using this mon so far but it has had solid showings in prior metagames where aero was the #1 mega and things are even better for it now with the primary water starmie taking 70-80% from xscissor etc.
i think clefable is still generally fine, it can run +spdef if you want to be able to twave lead gengar t1 without risking dying to sludge bomb poison before u get to set rocks t2, cant do anything to avoid ohko from adamant bee's pjab tho as eve pointed out above. still better than grounds if u want a non-mew rocker but ig might have more competition with omastar when u combine the lead mu issues of lead mbeedrill + lead gengar + lead melm (oma lives gengar tbolt but does die to mega drain i guess lol). could be a subrank lower ig.

A- dugtrios and rhydon are the 'premier' grounds but they all have issues. dugtrio kanto isnt rly a zapdos check since it takes >60% from dpeck, also ofc chunked by uturn but thats more ok bc zapdos took rocks and didnt get to roost, but it isnt checked by starmie, and can revenge kill gengar without relying on a speed tie (also outspeeds jolteon). but, not being a zapdos check can be awkward in the builder so it may be competing for a slot with non-grounds at that point too. rhydon is a great check to drill peck zap while also providing protection against both maero and mbeedrill, but it can struggle a little to make progress vs reflect zapdos, while ofc also being ohkod by venusaur and every offensive water type if it doesnt have a substitute up due to its bad speed. obv it is the strongest ground, the extra damage vs melmetal is significant for sure and megahorn is amazing coverage. alolan dugtrio is kind of the worst of both worlds in a lot of ways to me, has neither kdug's great speed nor rhydon's power and defensive utility vs aero/bee, but if you want a fast ground that checks zapdos its your only option, and it still has super high usage so felt unfair to put in any lower lol. vaporeon is a solid pick as always, great offensive profile and can fight most anything u need it too, ofc like stoise it is more prediction reliant against venusaur teams as well as having issues vs mgyara so u want to consider that. sabelette has rly shown its effectiveness on mega beedrill teams, where neither gyara nor venu is a big concern, vaporeons combination of offense and bulk is rly valued for keeping up momentum, also beedrill synergizes well with yawn lines eg yawn the zapdos and switch to beedrill and if u do take tbolt on switch u can roost it off anyway.
this whole rank could also be moved to / relabeled as B+

B ranks (only will discuss selected mons)

jolteon is typically a huge threat against water mega teams, so i can understand ranking it higher but i j feel theres a lot of ways to cover those mus already so i dont value that as much. putting the water mega mu aside, it is one of a limited set of options for revenge killing gengar, and being a starmie revenge killer that isnt rocks weak, but it relies on yawn predictions vs mega venusaur and is easily revenged by mega aero/bee in a sac war. using it as a zapdos check j doesnt rly work well in practice imo bc it just lets it roost up and then exit on yawn, and twave immunity isnt as useful as it was in zam meta either which leaves it overall with less utility from my pov than other fast mons like starmie gengar or even kdug. nonetheless, a solid option, probably fits best on aero teams which do value the ability to pressure water mega teams (not that gengar and tbolt starmie dont also do that but obv not at the level jolteon does), while being comfortable playing the sac war in other mus.
nidokings speed is neat sure but it also is outsped and 3HKOd by zapdos's drill peck after stealth rock so im not even sure it counts as any more of a dp zapdos check than kanto dugtrio. and still has the same aerodactyl and starmie issues etc. if anything this is probably too high for it. nidoqueen is like ~alright, but its a bad rocks setter bc of the mew mu etc, and its still very slow so its a bit hard to justify over rhydon. does have that special bulk that rhydon doesnt tho and various other things nidoq does better than rhydon like answer muk, have a manageable venu mu, outspeed certain waters like vap and kingler; but ur giving up a lot for that in terms of power and aerodactyl checking. and ofc rhydon directly koing things is preferred to nidoqueen playing the dtail lottery.
dislike rocks sandslash for the same reason as rocks nido (takes too much from mew psy so its too hard to get the rocks up early game), sd sandslash with twave mew is sort of okay but still has a starmie issue and theres better options etc, idk the mon still doesnt rly appeal to me but the aero mu at least creates some reason for using it.
tend to agree w eve that eggy is mostly still fine even if obv not as good into rhydon as into dugs, eggy hates gengar being good tho as the one thing that j kills it + also can switch into mega drain. more venu not great for it either, overall more pressed to click dtail a lot rather than get to stay healthy with drain.
snorlax might be too low here, answering mie + gar is a great treat to have, however its still passive compared to muk relies on bslam paras to make progress a lot of the time, idk.
i thought maybe i was gonna like poliwrath more in this meta but i once again dont, venu and gar make it way more prediction reliant and there are better options available for improving the aerodactyl matchup (kingler, rhydon). the gyara switchin is again something i dont value that much, the switchin to beedrill's uturn maybe the best thing about the mon to me but doesnt make up for its passivity issues and inability to click toxic freely vs teams with either venu or gengar. use either kingler or vaporeon instead.
dnite and cloyster are interesting for ice shard/aqua jet but kingler seems better both as a speed boosting sweeper and as a wallbreaker. but cloy could be good vs aero + venu teams(?)
 
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igiveuponaname

A face in a cloud no trace in the crowd.
is a Community Contributor
First post on one of the resource threads here, thought I would share my shit opinions on the VR now that the recent tour is done.
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(ordered alphabetically within each rank)

S+
:mew:: Do I really need to explain this one lol? Mandatory on any serious team since it's such a key defensive piece for teams in this tier. Offensive sets benefitted immensely from the Mega Zam ban now that one of their best checks is gone but are still somewhat held back by Mega-Aero/Bee/Gyara (last one to a lesser extent) as well as defensive/utility sets being so important for so many teams.

:melmetal:: Lol, another mandatory member on any serious team. With Mega Zam gone it's so much easier to keep this thing healthy for the mid-late game where Melmetal shines best imo. Boom should be mandatory not because it's the best option, but because it's the funniest.

S
:zapdos:: Zapdos being top tier in LGPE OU, big surprise, I know. Very threatening offensively once Ground types are removed and is very useful defensively, nothing we already don't know.

A+
:aerodactyl-mega:: Best mega in the tier, strong, fast, can revenge a lot of stuff or be a good offensive Stealth Rock setter. Loves being the fastest thing in the tier since it makes it so hard to handle in a late game scenario while still being good at breaking down stuff in the early-mid game. Doesn't necessarily love dropping Roost for Wing Attack in order to threaten mega Venusaur but eh what can you do, still a very threatening mon you can't afford to be weak to.

:blastoise-mega:: Second best mega, really hard to switch into, really bulky for what it does, just all around a great mon that you need to account for.

A
:dugtrio-alola:: Alolan Dug is still as good as ever, not too much has changed about its viability imo aside from Drill Peck Zapdos making Subsitute harder to set up. Doesn't like that it no longer checks the best mega in the tier but its main functions still remain unchanged for the most part.

:starmie:: More limited in what it runs now that mega Venusaur has risen in viability and popularity but is still very solid offensively while still having its defensive uses vs alolan dug and Melmetal.

:venusaur-mega:: Now that the biggest "fuck you" button against mega venu in mega Zam is gone this thing is much better defensively. Good check to the electrics and water megas, while also doing decently against grounds, and Leech Seed is great at making progress and increasing longevity while also being tough to switch into in general. I think it's very telling of mega venusaur's viability now that even with all the various Psychics getting tossed around and Zapdos/mega Aero more commonly running Flying STAB moves in order to not get checked by mega venu, it's performing very well despite these attempts to target it.

A-
:beedrill-mega:: No defensive utility whatsoever but this thing is fast and it is strong with STAB U-turn for momentum. Good offensive check to basically anything weak to its STAB combination + Drill Run but being weak to rocks can be limiting for it and needing pivoting support to actually get into the match holds it back a bit.

:gengar:: Cool offensive mon, threatens Mew well with its STAB, high speed and decent coverage and utility options. Doesn't have that much defensively utility so it can be tough to fit on teams though which I think is the main limiting factor for this mon.

:gyarados-mega:: Solid mega Blastoise answer that's also threatening in its own right with STAB Crunch and moves like Dragon Tail to punish switches. Can soft check offensive Mew in a pinch if needed too which is great. Hates the match up versus the electrics, mega Bee, and mega Venu though, and starting the match at 75% can be rough.

:rhydon:: The ground that benefitted the most from the mega Zam ban, is pretty much THE Zapdos answer and can be hard to switch into from there given how strong its EQs are. Good check to a lot of physical attackers but weak to special attackers makes it like a 2nd lesser Melmetal in my eyes. Sub is cool but I don't like instantly clicking it early on vs Zapdos since you end up with more or less the same result at the end of the next turn if you just instantly attacked but with 25% less HP which can mess with your ability to check some mons late game. Good mon.

B+
:aerodactyl:: Base Aero is solid as a lead since it denies rocks from a lot of stuff and can set up its own rather easily. Good for the most aggressive of teams that want to start game with as much momentum as possible.

:charizard-mega-x:: Zard X is my goat idgaf was anyone else says. Melting Melmetal and mega Venusaur with Fire Blast is great, Dragon Tail is very good at punishing switches, it's a decent check to the electrics, just a very nice mon on super aggressive teams. Ground types are solid checks but they're barely switch-ins since they all get 2hko'd by at least one of Zard's moves, not to mention Alolan Eggy is pretty much a mandatory partner for Zard X to begin with. Base 100 speed can be annoying at times with Mew speed ties in particular being an issue, as well as Fire Blast's occasionally shaky accuracy, but the high offensive potential on Zard X is just so so good to me. I will admit though that it is the worst of the OU megas.

:jolteon:: Really fast and threatening since tbolt + shadow ball can be weirdly hard to switch into without something like a Mega Venusaur or a special sponge like Snorlax/Chansey, especially since the latter two have fallen off quite a bit. That being said I've only ever seen it on electric spam teams with Zapdos so while it is good it only fits on one type of team structure from what I've seen.

:muk-alola:: Still solid post-Mega Zam ban since it checks stuff like Mew/Gengar/Starmie decently well while being a pain to switch into for a lot of teams. The rise of Rhydon definitely hurts it though and I was never really satisfied with how it matched up into other common special attackers like Zapdos and Mega Blastoise.

B
:clefable:: Really solid Stealth Rock setter and good at spreading paralysis too. Just general good utility that can free up move slots elsewhere on your team.

:exeggutor-alola:: Solid check to grounds and non mega-Blastoise waters, can cause a lot of havoc with Dragon Tail once it's in, but it's also threatened by pretty much every mega in the tier aside from gyara while also being a shakier Zapdos check now that it runs Drill Peck more often.

:nidoqueen:: Has some cool tools for making progress like Super Fang, Dragon Tail, and of course, Stealth Rock, but aside from the electrics and Alolan Muk it doesn't answer too much defensively. A lot of stuff running Psychic now for mega Venusaur means it's just easier in general to threaten Nidoqueen without even thinking about it. Works fine on mega Gyara teams but not really anywhere else imo.

:poliwrath:: Water megas, Melmetal, and ground types are solid as ever so it's at least decent. Hates the constant presence of Mew/Starmie/Zapdos and the rise of mega Venusaur so making progress with it can be rather hit or miss at times though. Oh and the rise of Wing Attack on mega Aero means its a much shakier check to it as well now.

B-
:dugtrio:: Alolan Dug but with no defensive presence beyond the electric immunity but the ability to check faster mons because of higher speed. Cool mon just competes with a lot of the other grounds.

:nidoking:: Has a wide offensive movepool so it can be annoying to switch into but like most of the offensive metagame either outspeeds and threatens it hard or has the bulk to take a decent hit and fire back. Add on to that the same flawed defensive typing as Nidoqueen with less bulk and you get something that's rather disappointing in my eyes.

:pidgeot-mega:: Cool mega I just really don't like how its Zapdos/Rhydon matchup is basically "U-turn it out of there immediately".

:snorlax:: Okay special check with offensive potential but there are better options.

:vaporeon:: Decent but I don't get the hype around it tbh. I find it's too easy to wear down in battle for it to actually start threatening stuff and it relies too much on status moves like Yawn and Toxic to force switches early on especially against Mega Blastoise. It's got solid bulk for what it does I'll give it that but I find it causes the most damage when the opponent just starts swapping around mindlessly which isn't the most reliable strategy.

C+
:chansey:: Passive, doesn't fit well onto many teams I find, deleted by any physical attacker simply looking in its general direction. If your team is in desperate need of a special wall that takes 35% from timid U-turn and can maybe set rocks then its fine I guess.

:cloyster:: Shell Smash is cool I guess.

:dragonite::
> Needs Outrage to threaten a lot of stuff
> Melmetal exists

:persian-alola:: I never know what to think of this thing while looking through my teambuilder aside from "No I don't want to use Alolan-Persian on this team".

:venusaur:: Cool on dual mega teams since it can still perform its defensive role decently well without mega evolving, but since you usually want to mega evolve your Venusaur you probably won't be seeing that too much.

C
:eevee-starter:: Cool utility movepool, but its stats suck and few teams actually benefit from running this mon over something else.

:electrode:: Fastest non-mega, access to Taunt and Foul Play, at worst speed ties with Mega Aero = yea it's worth something

:primeape:: Haven't used this thing at all but I watched some of the tour replays where it went apeshit and I think that's epic.

:raichu-alola:: I wish this thing had slightly more spatk and speed because its STAB combination is really cool in this tier since STAB Psychic cleaves through lots of common Electric resists but being forced out by alolan dug because you speed tie sucks. Fast Encore is cool too.

Probably a few things I could have added but forgot about, but it's probably the sort of stuff I wouldn't know where to rank it.
 

Eve

Bzzt!
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Sorry for the delay, I've been dealing with an injured knee that made sitting at my computer desk very uncomfortable.


:mew::melmetal::zapdos:
It's time to make the first post-ban VR, and this time we're going to be using Vapicuno's data-driven approach to better support our viability-based tiering. This VR will be used as a baseline to reference in the future, and to establish the new LGPE UU banlist. Given the new state of the metagame, I'll be accepting VR submissions from anyone who meets one of the two following requirements:
  • Reached Round 3 of the LGPE OU MZam Ban Tour
  • Member of the LGPE OU Council
That gives the following list of 15 eligible participants:
If you don't want to take part or feel that you aren't experienced enough in the current metagame, that's fine and totally understandable- Just let me know with a DM or sad react or something. Even if you aren't qualified, feel free to post your own rankings here if you desire.

How do I take part?
Participants should post in this thread, or DM me, a list of Pokemon, ordered to match their opinions on the current metagame reasonably well. This can be in the form of a Tiermaker image (I'd recommend using this tiermaker, do whatever you want with the ranks) or text. Don't worry about ranking things that you don't consider worth using- you only need to rank as much as you feel is significant. You may rank Mega Evolutions in a separate list to regular Pokemon if you prefer to do so, as I intend to handle their rankings separately given how uniquely they function in LGPE.

Ideally, all active participants should give me a list before January 21st 2024, but the earlier the better. Also, feel free to re-submit if you change your mind on stuff. Thanks!
 
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Sabelette

from the river to the sea
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I genuinely don't understand this tier well enough to VR but given I won the tour people expect me to know my shit. Take all this with a grain of salt, I literally steal 80% of my teams from juoean and Eve and the last 20% make me wonder what I'm smoking
 

NEET

the worst at what he does best
is a Tiering Contributor
been playing this tier since the beginning and it's always fascinating seeing the new developments to the meta and new faces pop in lmao, hope I can keep playing for years to come and maybe one day I'll make it further than round 3 lol anyways here's my tierlist, Pikachu and Eevee are supposed to be the partner variants and yeah thats about it, gg lads
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