Announcement LC Suspect — The Drum

[Coconut]

Just follow the beat of my drum...​

Magby is yet another Belly Drum user to be suspected in Little Cup. To really understand the gravity of this suspect test, there comes a bit of history with Little Cup and Belly Drum sweepers. There is, of course, the notorious Swirlix, often debated as one of the best Pokemon in LC ever. More recently, Zigzagoon ripped up the tier and promptly was banned from the metagame. Considering this would be the third significant Belly Drum user to be banned, why not approach Belly Drum? Well, not all Belly Drum users are problematic or even viable. Plenty of good Pokemon do not use Belly Drum in their main set, and a particular portion of Belly Drum users are not viable at all. So what separates the good Belly Drum users from the awful, and where does Magby sit?

Belly Drum, as a whole, can be seen as too strong of a move, considering it is an instant boost to maximum attack; however, the main component which sets the banned drummers from the bad drummers is the supporting staff around it. Swirlix has the ability Unburden, which essentially allows it to outspeed the entirety of the tier in the same turn as maximizing its attack. That being said, it could be argued that this was not even Swirlix's best set, as the Cotton Guard Calm Mind (CGCM) was also deadly in its respect. These factors led to one of the strongest Pokemon Little Cup has ever seen. Zigzagoon, on the other hand, while it does have very marginal base stat totals, does have one thing which sets it apart from everything else—a base 80 STAB, +2 priority attack. Combined with some other less impactful but still annoying aspects, such as Quick Feet or Thief, and the banning of the premier Ghost-type in Gastly made Zigzagoon far too overwhelming for the current Little Cup metagame. As for other drummers, options like Munchlax could be used, but there are often vastly better sets and would generally be a wasted slot. Poliwag has an amazing speed stat and can give itself a chance to set up with Hypnosis, but Poliwag has no priority and no useful coverage whatsoever.

And finally, we reach Magby. In summation: Magby is a very fast Pokemon with respectable coverage options and a sufficient priority move, making the Pokemon suspect worthy. Magby reaches a max speed of 19, only outsped by the blistering fast Diglett and rarely seen Elekid, and the occasional Choice Scarf user. 19 speed gives Magby a tie against opponents like Ponyta and Staryu, who would go from reliable answers to Magby to 50/50 chances of winning a speed tie. Going first on nearly everything in the tier was a significant part of what made Zigzagoon problematic in the first place, but Magby has the option of using other coverage moves while still going first on the majority of the tier. Magby has a fantastic coverage option in Thunderpunch, which covers Pokemon who typically eat a Fire STAB, such as Frillish, Staryu, and Mareanie. To round out coverage, Magby typically runs Mach Punch. Where Pawniard's Sucker Punch might have been able to score a revenge kill, Magby now outspeeds and eliminates immediately. Combined with the distinct lack of viable Rock-types in the tier, Magby can afford to run these moves and have partners such as Diglett remove potentially sweep-ending threats. Of course, this does not stop most priority users, such as Fake Out from Mienfoo and Mach Punch from Timburr. The former can get burned from Flame Body, completely crippling the Pokemon and allowing Magby to continue. The latter? Magby eats a Mach Punch from Timburr from full and can send its own fist back at him for the kill. Essentially, if you give Magby a chance to set up his Belly Drum, you need to either with a coinflip on a speedtie, have a Diglett in the back, have one of the very few options who eat a Fire and Thunder Punch from full health and keep it at full health, or hope to chip it down, often sacking several Pokemon in the process.

The good news? All hope is not lost; Magby often cannot set up for free and requires significant support of some kind to make it through the turn where it uses Belly Drum. Playing a fast-paced game and not allowing your opponent the freebie will enable you to potentially outplay the Magby, which could make it a completely worthless slot on a team. Magby does not have significantly different sets, such as Swirlix, and does not have a +2 priority STAB move, such as Zigzagoon. Magby's most problematic presence on the metagame is nearly exclusive to cheese-based teams, where the player is attempting to take advantage of the opponent's lack of preparation for Magby, and with several different options to potentially win, your odds are high that one of them works out in your favor. Finally, Magby only reaches a top speed of 19, so any Choice Scarf user who does not die to a Mach Punch is an immediate threat to Magby, even more so if you can mask that you are running the plus speed item.

With all of this in mind, the LC Council has decided to suspect test Magby as our finale for the generation. I urge all who are interested in participating in the last suspect test before the new games to get out there and get reqs!

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

We will use the regular LC ladder for this suspect test, so you must create a new account that begins with MAGLC to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. Magby will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Sunday, November 6th, at 11:59 PM EST.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one-liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

Umpapumpapum, pumpapum, pumpapumpum
Umpapumpapum, pumpapum, pumpapumpum​

 

[Drifting]

Just achieved reqs (ez speedrun), and I will probably edit this post when I make up my mind about Magby (though I'm solidly leaning no ban), but for now I just wanna share the team I used to get there without much effort, in case anybody is having trouble

 

[Oscarx90]

I don’t think that magby should be banned because of the difficulty setting up and the frequency of focus sash users, like diglett, trapinch and Abra along with choice scarfers like Frillish. I personally have never had much trouble with magby.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Magby is the epitome of annoying. Broken, it is not. While I am happy that we are suspect testing it; all pretenses aside, it is simply another threat in a tier jam-packed with them. Sure, Belly Drum is contentious. However, Magby has counterplay. Mach Punch limits it, but Diglett can outspeed and KO it using Sash or Eviolite. Tyrunt can 1v1 it with Defense EVs. And if all fails, you can win the speed tie.

 

[Coconut]

Magby is the epitome of annoying. Broken, it is not. While I am happy that we are suspect testing it; all pretenses aside, it is simply another threat in a tier jam-packed with them. Sure, Belly Drum is contentious. However, Magby has counterplay. Mach Punch limits it, but Diglett can outspeed and KO it. Slowpoke can 1v1 it somewhat. Carvanha can KO it with LO Aqua Jet.

Magby at +6 beats the three examples you gave under specific circumstances.

Carvanha doesn't really run Aqua Jet this generation, so he gets invalidated by Mach Punch pretty quickly.
Slowpoke has often been dropping Scald in exchange for other options, but generally is rare enough not to be considered in this case.
Diglett only wins with a Focus Sash or Eviolite, but both of that predicate you not allowing Stealth Rocks up.

If you want to run specific things to beat Magby specifically, that's fine, but that would be pigeon-holing a particular threat pretty hard, which is something you could consider unhealthy for a metagame.

 

[Shao Yo]

Just played for a few hours and even if i get the meaning behind the suspect test is a bit odd.
I am in low ladder as im a really avarage player and just made a new account however i never came across someone using magby. I think part of his power is the surprise factor as any other gimmick team and because of that its really hard to use against expirenced players.
Also i feel like you see more specialised counters that normally wuold be really rare and counterable such as encore spritzee (hard to break with the usual ho team while blocking belly drum) and scarf golett (43% to ohko under reflect and immune to mach punch), I even found a phisical scarf g-pony...
That being said I am no top player and Ill be glad to be proven wrong but so far i dont see any strong reasons to ban him.

 

[Colin]

I'm not sure if I'll vote ban or dnb, but largely the restricting nature around Magby is not just about Magby in a vacuum. as a whole, cheese is very strong in the current meta, because although beating one aspect of it in the builder is noteworthy, Screens teams can pack a lot of threats and aren't rigid in the builder like many other cheeses. prepping for Magby alone isn't enough; you have to prepare for Magby + Tyrunt who will get entrance from either the screen setter's sack/teleport or Grookey being very hard to answer w/o going Koffing or Natu. The screens teams can customize Tyrunt and to a lesser extent Magby, and they have many options for the 4th abuser that can either be used to win cheese wars or threaten structures that traditionally win vs screens.

This benefits other cheese or offense structures such as sun by making it harder to answer all of the different types of cheese effectively without also hurting common bulky offense matchups. An example would be that choosing to run a bulkier core containing defensive Frillish to beat sun instead of a core containing stronger speed control would lose you the screens matchup in exchange for the Sun and Memento Runt matchups. My point is that it is very difficult to build or use a team that has reliably okay/decent matchups across the board, especially as bulky offenses have demanding offensive cores in their own right. while there shouldn't be a "perfect team", less matchup fishes and centralization on cheese and cheese counter play would be healthy for the meta imo.

The most common hallmark of an unhealthy sweeper is that otherwise bad options are used to beat the sweeper. This applies to Magby to a small degree, but its top tier answers are more limited as opposed to simply not working well; diglett is an amazing pokemon and also a good answer, and other good pokemon can be used to 50 50 vs it (these interactions are dumb, but at this point less frequent then they used to be). Other decently used answers such as scarf ghosts and Mudbray aren't as good vs the rest of the meta, but they are perfectly okay and are viable vs bulky offense. Onix is interesting as its a bulky ground and fire resist that beats Magby but struggles vs most defensive cores, so its mediocre but not dead weight vs balance. Overall, Magby has an alright amount of answers that are viable pokemon, even if it denies many otherwise good cores (pory pinch especially) from being consistent. Magby as a standalone threat is polarizing, but not broken, and it is only by pressuring the builder with many other Pokemon that it is worth suspecting.

 

[Drifting]

OK, I've slept on it and gathered some thoughts about Magby

1. Magby Counterplay

The best way to counter Magby is to position yourself well so that it never gets a chance to set up, which can be easy as like, not taking kills with Pawniard if you have nothing for Magby in the back for example. This is easy for me to say as someone who prefers very offensive Timburr builds that do great into Magby a lot of the time, and with more standard teams it's definitely harder, but for sure doable with one exception I'll talk about later. I got reqs with Scarf Golett, but half the Magby's I ran into didn't even need Golett to come out, because I was beating Magby just by having Pokemon like Timburr and Ponyta with High Horsepower on the field.

If Magby does manage to set up, I wrote a post a while ago here (sorry for the self-plug) full of all kinds of way to shut down Magby. Really, most teams should have one of these, as a lot of these are the best mons in the tier anyway, just using specific anti-Magby sets and tactics. Overall I don't think Magby is that much of an issue on it's own. It's obviously possible to build a team that lose straight up to Magby, but the same can be said for any win-condition pokemon, be it Carv, Tyrunt, Bulk Up Timburr, Seed Grookey, etc.

2. What's the Problem?

The issue with the above is that we are playing Little Cup, and not 1v1. Magby has teammates to accentuate it's pressure, notably things like Seed Grookey and Tyrunt, as well as trappers. Dealing with this overwhelming barrage of offense can be too much a lot of the time, and is often very easy to do and forces the opponent to play perfectly. Of course, this is just how HO works, It's super streamlined in exchange for having low flexibility, being a glass cannon structure, but its success at even a top level is concerning.

Speaking of Tyrunt, I think that this mon is a strictly better set-up sweeper than Magby. It's more versatile, it gets to hold an eviolite, it's faster after a DD, it just does so many things. This makes me think that Magby is being falsely scapegoated here, if it's not even the best mon at what it does. I also don't think Tyrunt is the issue, and I think the real culprit has become clear to me.

3. The Real Culprit

but for sure doable with one exception I'll talk about later.

When I said this in the first paragraph, this is what I was referring to.

I don't think Memento Magby structures are at all an issue. There aren't a lot of great things for Magby to set up on (and the good ones like Natu are starting to run Thunder Wave to make it even worse), and you of course have to sack a mon to get the drum off on Magby, making it a kind of all or nothing strategy. Sometimes you can get overwhelmed sure, but typically this is happening at a point late enough where any other set-up mon would be able to do the same.

As for other Magby builds, I think there's some fun creative and dare I say healthy uses for the mon. Sorry for the self-plug again, but the team I made that DOOR used to beat Kythr in LCPL is one I'm still very proud of, using Magby on a Larvesta Bulky Offense structure to exploit burns with the pressure it gives off by existing.

The real issue is Screens. Screens allows Magby to set up just way too easily. It allows Tyrunt to set up way too easily. It allows Seed Grookey to set up way too easily. and because of Light Clay, you can often get multiple of these sweepers started in one round of screens.

In a metagame as uniquely fast-paced as Little Cup, and notably with little to no Defog presence, I think Light Clay is simply too strong, and is the single thing making HO unbearable. I like screens as a strategy, they're cool, and I don't want them to be banned altogether, but Light Clay is frankly stupid and should go.

Are screens unbeatable? No. Does getting everything in the right place to set them up take some intelligence? Sure. Are you starting off at a disadvantage because one of your Pokemon basically has no presence outside of clicking screens? Definitely.

But the issue is that screens is too much bang for their buck right now. It's an obviously degenerate strategy that has disproportionate payoff compared to the skill needed to use it, and it's heavy presence at even the top levels of play is concerning.

4. Conclusion

I believe that Magby is not broken, and it's not even the best at what it does (Tyrunt). I believe that with smart positioning and slight considerations in the builder the mon isn't too hard to play against most of the time.

The issue is screens, specifically Light Clay that allows Magby and it's HO friends to set-up incredibly easily on way more things, and can be almost impossible to stall out due to how impactful every single turn in a fast metagame like LC is.

My recommendation is to vote No Ban, and quickban Light Clay post-gen. Maybe this could even let us have Alolapix back, which could be a good start to trying to fix this metagame, but don't quote me on that.

Thanks for reading.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

I'm gonna put in my 2 cents on the matter.

I'm hoping to get this guy banned, and its for a few reasons.

First off, positioning.

If your opponent has a magby , it means you have to keep quite a few things healthy.

In drifiting's post about what can beat Magby after its set up, you have stuff like Onix (I consider Onix really bad due to the prevalence of Grookey, Mienfoo and Carv and wouldn;t recommend using it due to its 45 base attack stat), Scarf Mudbray (Which is food for both Carv and Grookey), Eviolite Diglett

+6 236 Atk Magby Mach Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Diglett: 15-18 (83.3 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18)

which i would consider heavily unreliable due to the amount of hazards paired with Magby, in addition to it not being able to handle anything else and, you guessed it, being weak to Grookey and Carvanha.

There's defensive Ponyta, which does not lose the Grookey and Carvanha, but its issue come from not being Berry Juice Attacker Ponyta, and having bad odds to survive Thunder Punch if its taken any damage from Spikes or Rocks.

We also got scarfers in Golett (which is D tier for a reason, Poltergeist is not worth running if it means you can't hit things due to Knock Off) and and Frillish (both of which lose to Carv and Grookey), Focus Sash Abra and Diglett (both of which have to not take any damage whatsoever before coming in, with Diglett needing hazards off to guarantee its survival. Then Abra does signficantly less well against Pawniard, as it can't kill it unless it wants to then lose to Magby.), Priority attacks (Which, besides fake out and Diglett Sucker Punch, don't connect first so you have to preserve the mons who have the priority to be able to take those attacks. Fake Out from Foo is decently weak and requires a decently large amount of sacs in order to even kill the Magby, as it only does about a fourth of Magby's health.), 60 Defense Tyrunt (which you gotta keep rocks off of your side of the field for cause of how strong mach punch is.), or just speed tying it. (I don't think i need to explain why this is unhealthy.)

There's also the option of putting thunder wave on mons like Natu and Pawniard to prevent a sweep, and that's cool and could work, but there's a few issues. First, Koffing , the most prevalent poison in the tier, gives Magby free set up. Unless you're willing to run Explosion, which would compromise its utility in other match ups, Magby doesn't take enough damage to not take roughly 2 of your mons on a free switch. Second, Pawniard has to give up either Iron Head, Sucker Punch, or Stealth Rock in order to run Thunder Wave. Iron Head means it can't hit neutrally (most importantly against foo), Sucker Punch means you can't revenge kill other sweepers (such as Tyrunt or Grookey), and no Stealth Rock means you either go without (which is highly unrecommended due to how little reliable hazard removal there is in this tier) or find another rocker (which means you have 4 mons in your builder you need to have, your fighting, poison and pawniard, plus an additional rocker, which heavily restricts teambuilding). Secondly, Thunder wave doesn't have perfect accuracy. You could auto lose cause the game rolled the 1 in 10 and its lights out. As a result, you might want to run an additional check to Magby, like the ones mentioned earlier. Therefore you have 4-5 required team members, up to 2 of which are required to be able to able to deal with Magby. From there, you'll want to run an additional Grookey check (as many of the Magby answers die to Grookey quite easily), so that means (almost) your entire team is already filled out by the time you want to customize what you can do with that team.

This isn't me "exposing Drifting" or whatever, I think he's done a really good job in getting those resources together. My main issue with Magby is how it forces you to build and play in very, VERY, awkward ways in order to even deal with it properly.

As always, If I got anything wrong here, please let me know. I'd much rather be wrong here than when I vote (if i can make reqs, that is).

 

[Colin]

I'm gonna put in my 2 cents on the matter.

I'm hoping to get this guy banned, and its for a few reasons.

First off, positioning.

If your opponent has a magby , it means you have to keep quite a few things healthy.

In drifiting's post about what can beat Magby after its set up, you have stuff like Onix (I consider Onix really bad due to the prevalence of Grookey, Mienfoo and Carv and wouldn;t recommend using it due to its 45 base attack stat), Scarf Mudbray (Which is food for both Carv and Grookey), Eviolite Diglett

+6 236 Atk Magby Mach Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Diglett: 15-18 (83.3 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18)

which i would consider heavily unreliable due to the amount of hazards paired with Magby, in addition to it not being able to handle anything else and, you guessed it, being weak to Grookey and Carvanha.

There's defensive Ponyta, which does not lose the Grookey and Carvanha, but its issue come from not being Berry Juice Attacker Ponyta, and having bad odds to survive Thunder Punch if its taken any damage from Spikes or Rocks.

We also got scarfers in Golett (which is D tier for a reason, Poltergeist is not worth running if it means you can't hit things due to Knock Off) and and Frillish (both of which lose to Carv and Grookey), Focus Sash Abra and Diglett (both of which have to not take any damage whatsoever before coming in, with Diglett needing hazards off to guarantee its survival. Then Abra does signficantly less well against Pawniard, as it can't kill it unless it wants to then lose to Magby.), Priority attacks (Which, besides fake out and Diglett Sucker Punch, don't connect first so you have to preserve the mons who have the priority to be able to take those attacks. Fake Out from Foo is decently weak and requires a decently large amount of sacs in order to even kill the Magby, as it only does about a fourth of Magby's health.), 60 Defense Tyrunt (which you gotta keep rocks off of your side of the field for cause of how strong mach punch is.), or just speed tying it. (I don't think i need to explain why this is unhealthy.)

There's also the option of putting thunder wave on mons like Natu and Pawniard to prevent a sweep, and that's cool and could work, but there's a few issues. First, Koffing , the most prevalent poison in the tier, gives Magby free set up. Unless you're willing to run Explosion, which would compromise its utility in other match ups, Magby doesn't take enough damage to not take roughly 2 of your mons on a free switch. Second, Pawniard has to give up either Iron Head, Sucker Punch, or Stealth Rock in order to run Thunder Wave. Iron Head means it can't hit neutrally (most importantly against foo), Sucker Punch means you can't revenge kill other sweepers (such as Tyrunt or Grookey), and no Stealth Rock means you either go without (which is highly unrecommended due to how little reliable hazard removal there is in this tier) or find another rocker (which means you have 4 mons in your builder you need to have, your fighting, poison and pawniard, plus an additional rocker, which heavily restricts teambuilding). Secondly, Thunder wave doesn't have perfect accuracy. You could auto lose cause the game rolled the 1 in 10 and its lights out. As a result, you might want to run an additional check to Magby, like the ones mentioned earlier. Therefore you have 4-5 required team members, up to 2 of which are required to be able to able to deal with Magby. From there, you'll want to run an additional Grookey check (as many of the Magby answers die to Grookey quite easily), so that means (almost) your entire team is already filled out by the time you want to customize what you can do with that team.

This isn't me "exposing Drifting" or whatever, I think he's done a really good job in getting those resources together. My main issue with Magby is how it forces you to build and play in very, VERY, awkward ways in order to even deal with it properly.

As always, If I got anything wrong here, please let me know. I'd much rather be wrong here than when I vote (if i can make reqs, that is).

I agree with this, but I think you severely undersold Diglett. it can invest the point that is in SpDef in its analysis into HP which helps for final gambit too, or it can even put that point in defense if you want to reduce it to a 1/16 role to KO after rocks. also, since Magby can't effectively switch in and out multiple times, realistically you only have to keep one thing healthy for it, although that is still restricting. fake out spam is unreliable due to flame body and involves sacking half your team, but if you can waste screen turns it can sometimes work. the "19 speed options" turn the game into a coin flip, but they are options if you don't think screens are particularly likely to face as your Magby answer. Magby is restricting, but its not as dire as you are making it out to be as an individual threat.

 

[Shandeur]

credit to ashelyDeluxe for the art of this goofball.


On the Subject of Magby

Currently, I'm torn between ban and no ban. I'll most likely be leaning towards ban after going after the points I made. When taking into account whether I should ban something in a suspect, I generally have a few things to take into account.

1. How much does the Pokemon affect the teambuilder?
2. How much does the Pokemon affect the metagame at large?
3. What are the counters to what this Pokemon tries to do, and are they reliable?

I'll discuss these points when going through my choice to ban or not ban Magby.

1. How much does the Pokemon affect the teambuilder?

If I'm being completely honest, not much. Since screens are a somewhat rare playstyle mainly reserved for people trying to ladder quickly, or tournament players trying to fish, you don't generally encounter screens every single game in terms of normal ladder. Magby , unlike Pokemon such as Grookey or Tyrunt , isn't on most teams, and is generally restricted to screens teams. (However, this is generally not true, as some creative players have used Magby in tandem with Larvesta's Flame Body and Will-O-Wisps to help Magby setup and become a wincon.) You don't often look at a team you just built and say "Oh, I have a bad Magby matchup." unlike the aforementioned Grookey or Tyrunt . You often say this when seeing it in team preview. It's because Magby, is ultimately, a fish. If you can get it setup and your opponent doesn't have any counters or ways such as Mienfoo's Fake Out and having to sack your entire team to kill Magby and burn screens turns, you just lose.

2. How much does the Pokemon affect the metagame at large?
Since I mentioned screens as being a somewhat uncommon playstyle, Magby doesn't really affect the metagame at large. Other breakers and sweepers are generally much more common than Magby. I went go on for much longer, since I went over this during the first paragraph.

3. What are the counters to what this Pokemon tries to do, and are they reliable?

This is the main issue many have with Magby, and is likely the main reason people will be voting ban. As everybody (hopefully) going through with laddering for this suspect knows, Magby's main goal is to setup a Belly Drum and win the game. The counters to this are incredibly limited, due to Magby's high speed and powerful attacks and coverage. I'll go over the counters real quick, and if they aren't 100 percent reliable, I'll list the problems with them.

Firstly, the most reliable counters are by far, Scarf Golett and Scarf Frillish . They are immune to Mach Punch, outspeed, and OHKO Magby. However, the main issue with these is that Golett and (Scarf) Frillish and not really good Pokemon in their own right. Golett is D tier in the viability, and Frillish's defensive set is generally much preferred. Scarf Frillish is also generally limited to specific builds, with Drilbur to remove Stealth Rocks to have Frillish fire off full power Water Spouts.

Eviolite Diglett is generally the most common Magby check, as it lives a +6 Mach Punch from full and KOs back. However, this requires Diglett to be at full hp, and any chip invalidates Diglett as a check.

Next, Eviolite Onix can live a +6 Mach Punch, and KO back with one of its STAB attacks. SturdyJuice Onix can also live a Mach Punch, and unless rocks are up and Magby gets the highest roll, Onix will win the 1v1.

+6 236 Atk Magby Mach Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

However, I believe Onix , a mediocre mon in my opinion due to all the Mienfoo , Carvanha , Drilbur , and Grookey in the tier, isn't a very good reason that we shouldn't ban Magby. It really only checks Magby, Koffing , and Ponyta , which isn't a really good reason to dedicate an entire teamslot that doesn't matchup too well into the metagame at large

Scarfers that live Mach Punch, such as Mudbray and other niche Scarfers you can think of can revenge kill Magby. However, Scarf Mudbray has taken a huge dive due to it being food for Carvanha , Grookey , and other metagame threats, such as Natu .

Focus Sash users such as Abra and Diglett can sometimes revenge kill, but the problem with these two are that in Diglett's case, no hazards can be up, or the Sash won't activate. Sash Abra is generally falling off for Life Orb or Shed Shell, which Magby preys on.

If all else fails, you can pray for a 50-50 speed tie with Ponyta , Abra , or Staryu . This obviously isn't a reliable method to beat Magby, due to the fact you're relying on a coin flip to not lose.

There's also a few more niche ideas, such as adjusting EVs to live attacks, lures such as Scarf Drilbur that I've tried briefly before starting to ladder for this suspect. An idea Elfuseon tried in an LPL game was Aqua Jet Carvanha to revenge kill Magby. The Game in Question: (The Sequence occurs between Turns 13-14.)

These are the main ideas I have about Magby. I'll probably come back later to go over a few points other people bring up after more arguments and the discussion furthers a bit more.

What I will say though, many agree that tier would be better without Magby.

 

[Bruh Wobuffet]

In my opinion banning magby is the dumbest decision I ever seen.
The real problem in the metagame is actually too many factors involved with unexpected picks that aren't really gimmicks or even niche, eg. slapping thunder wave on any defensive pokemon that had access to the move, or even choice scarf on unexpected pokemon like frillish pairing with water sprout.
Also, There are way too many available movesets like non-magnet pull magnemite trapper OR analytic scarf.
Magby is not broken on its own.
It is a far cry from zizaggoon which has stab on espeed and it isnt the fastest thing in the metagame, most notably speed tie against ponyta, staryu, abra and slower than diglett.
It might also struggle to set up on certain matchups such as not able to set up against ferroseed with thunder wave.
The real kicker however is light clay boosted screens.
Against teams which had screens magby hardly sweep, and magby itself loves screen supports to work too.
Screens are kinda a double-edge sword thats helps magby setup and helped dealing with magby.
In my opinion, light clay + screens might me considered a bigger problematic spot, as there are almost no way to remove screens in lc since defog are rare, and most teams use natu as a way to stop hazard from going up in the first place if they need to.
Magby is almost solely running on screen offense, which means if screens were gone, magby would unlikely be broken.
The thing is how light clay is already banned from ru or below tiers, since those were considered broken and uncompetitive for the metagame.
LC is a much faster paced metagame, which means stall don't work and for hyper offensive teams, especially screens offense are much more common.
It make sense to Ban light clay and Do Not ban Magby since screens was the real problem.

 

[DaSlabhead]

on my life i aint ever see mag do shit . why dis shit getting suspected shit's act hilarious bro. half da time it b taking 25% from sr n just dying . staryu dig frillish abra my bro scrf mudbray all beat it. n that ain't even mentioning how it aint settin up half da time unless ur opponent kinda stupid . it ain't settin up on dig foo staryu koffing timburr natu uturns out into sum that can live a hit n kill it needs to avoid a para or freeze vs pory then get a roll it ain't even set up vs fucking ferroseed cuz u get parad or knocked this shis shit is hilariously bad dawg . that ain't even the full list

if u aint get what im sayin by now then im sayin dis shit ass and there no way dis should b banned

 

[Kazeiyuu]

Since I finally reached reqs (god I hate ladder), I'll give my thoughts on Magby.
In itself, the mon is okay, I mean, strong as hell, but there are some counterplays and it is frail, as mentioned above.
However, since screens and memento are a thing, Magby is an issue. Not as much as Tyrunt though but still.
So, in my opinion, we sould've just banned Light Clay or something like that, instead of Magby.
But, eh, as it is right now, Magby's broken, so I'll vote Ban.

 

[Sciroccoo]

How far LC have fallen to suspect… Magby ?!

I don’t want to take too much time to explain why Magby is not broken because of course he is not ! It has never been broken and it probably never will.
I’ll be fast and clear : this Pokemon can’t setup safely in face of any top tier mons (except Larvesta). It is faster than the most of common Pokemon and it has to take one hit just after using Belly Drum so it’ll be at less than 50% and it’ll be in range of priority moves.
Ok, I assume it’ll be hard to revenge kill it if you’re not running prios but hey ! Mienfoo is everywhere with his fake out and I don’t mention Grookey, Timburr, Diglett and scarf users like Frillish or Golett. Oh and I forgot bulky mons who can live at +6 Mach Punch like Onix or Mudbray. I can also mention Tirtouga as a “check” but this one is never used even if it can have a little niche.

So, why are we talking about Magby? Because of Screens !!! Magby is much better thanks to these screens and thanks to Light Clay and it’s the same for others setup sweepers like Tyrunt or Grookey ! So, should we ban these threats too or should we consider that the problem is elsewhere?

In conclusion, Do Not Ban Magby it’s a nonsense, suspect or Ban Light Clay/Screens and BRING BACK VULLABY! Play with your brain and stop suspect every mons like that.

Sorry for my average English, I hope it’ll be understandable

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

How far LC have fallen to suspect… Magby ?!

I don’t want to take too much time to explain why Magby is not broken because of course he is not ! It has never been broken and it probably never will.
I’ll be fast and clear : this Pokemon can’t setup safely in face of any top tier mons (except Larvesta). It is faster than the most of common Pokemon and it has to take one hit just after using Belly Drum so it’ll be at less than 50% and it’ll be in range of priority moves.
Ok, I assume it’ll be hard to revenge kill it if you’re not running prios but hey ! Mienfoo is everywhere with his fake out and I don’t mention Grookey, Timburr, Diglett and scarf users like Frillish or Golett. Oh and I forgot bulky mons who can live at +6 Mach Punch like Onix or Mudbray. I can also mention Tirtouga as a “check” but this one is never used even if it can have a little niche.

So, why are we talking about Magby? Because of Screens !!! Magby is much better thanks to these screens and thanks to Light Clay and it’s the same for others setup sweepers like Tyrunt or Grookey ! So, should we ban these threats too or should we consider that the problem is elsewhere?

In conclusion, Do Not Ban Magby it’s a nonsense, suspect or Ban Light Clay/Screens and BRING BACK VULLABY! Play with your brain and stop suspect every mons like that.

Sorry for my average English, I hope it’ll be understandable

I agree that screens are strong, but here's the thing. Magby can set up on Natu, Pawniard, and Grookey without screens due to its 19 speed and the weak hits it'll sustain. Most Pawniard and Natu don't run Thunder Wave without sacrificing something. It also naturally can deal a lot of damage to Grookey because stab fire punch hurts a lot even before setting up. Priority from non Mienfoo is also quite sketch due to Mach Punch ranges being so good after setting up.

+6 236 Atk Magby Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Grookey: 17-20 (80.9 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Possible damage amounts: (17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20)

+6 236 Atk Magby Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Grookey: 11-14 (52.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Possible damage amounts: (11, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14)

[This one is pretty alright, and its the same calc as grassy seed, but the issue is just that you have to deal with not letting in your grookey at all to be able to deal with it]

+6 236 Atk Magby Mach Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Diglett: 15-18 (83.3 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18)

Its a 6% chance to kill without Rocks, but you really got thread the needle and get lucky to even consider this reasonable. Plus it can't come in beforehand or it gets destroyed otherwise. You can use Sucker Punch Diglett, which isn't half bad.

You can use Scarf Pawniard Sucker Punch (NGL its actually pretty decent, but you're still locking into sucker punch) or Timburr Mach Punch, but typically in builder you have to use either Mienfoo or Timburr, rarely can you use both. The exception is using fight spam, at which point you use choice scarf mienfoo, which means no fake out.

Scarf Frillish is probably the best counter to it, however I would advise not using Scarf Golett. Poltergeist is a funny stab move, but blanking into an itemless target (which can happen a lot due to berry juice being consumed or items being knocked off) is really rough.

I do think I'm down with "Just ban light clay and we should be fine", but the thing is that its not the suspect. Magby is. As much as we would like to change this to ban light clay, that's up to the tier leaders. Based on how we're voting on Magby, I'm content with still banning it. If we could ban screens afterwards, I'd be down for that too,

 

[Novax]

I agree that screens are strong, but here's the thing. Magby can set up on Natu, Pawniard, and Grookey without screens due to its 19 speed and the weak hits it'll sustain. Most Pawniard and Natu don't run Thunder Wave without sacrificing something. It also naturally can deal a lot of damage to Grookey because stab fire punch hurts a lot even before setting up. Priority from non Mienfoo is also quite sketch due to Mach Punch ranges being so good after setting up.

I have played on the lc ladder for a bit and what i understood is , its not that easy to setup magby without screens , as far as setup on grookey is concerned , magby cannot setup on grassy seed grookey at max since it doesn't ko without boosted fire punch and itself takes from 65-80% damage from non boosted acrobatics , which is a lot considering it cannot ohko with +6 mach punch and grookey can ko magby after acrobatics chip with grassy glide . moreover magby cannot setup on offensive pawniard which can even ko magby . Natu although cannot ohko magby like the others ( grookey ohkoed after stealth rock , even pawniard sucker punch gets a guranteed ko after stealth rock ) but can deal serious damage to it .
The calcs :
36 SpA Natu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magby: 12-15 (60 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Grookey Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
important ( magby does not ohko pawniard with 36 def with +0 mach punch)
edit : with max def investment (ik it may be kinda stupid but bear with me) pawniard can even live a non boosted fire punch from max (only 6% chance to ko )
now , we know the know the problem with magby -
1) It is super weak to hazards
2) its difficult to setup since it has to run berry juice as an item over eviolite
3) we all know this , its useless as long as it cannot setup belly drum.
the second point being more effective in stopping magby from being broken .
But , with screens support from natu , or sometimes even the uncommon staryu screen , magby is really a strong threat . I second Sciroccoo , Bruh Wobuffet and Drifting that light clay as an item is really overpowered in a tier like lc and is defininately suspect or ban worthy.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

I have played on the lc ladder for a bit and what i understood is , its not that easy to setup magby without screens , as far as setup on grookey is concerned , magby cannot setup on grassy seed grookey at max since it doesn't ko without boosted fire punch and itself takes from 65-80% damage from non boosted acrobatics , which is a lot considering it cannot ohko with +6 mach punch and grookey can ko magby after acrobatics chip with grassy glide . moreover magby cannot setup on offensive pawniard which can even ko magby . Natu although cannot ohko magby like the others ( grookey ohkoed after stealth rock , even pawniard sucker punch gets a guranteed ko after stealth rock ) but can deal serious damage to it .
The calcs :
36 SpA Natu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magby: 12-15 (60 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Grookey Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
important ( magby does not ohko pawniard with 36 def with +0 mach punch)
edit : with max def investment (ik it may be kinda stupid but bear with me) pawniard can even live a non boosted fire punch from max (only 6% chance to ko )
now , we know the know the problem with magby -
1) It is super weak to hazards
2) its difficult to setup since it has to run berry juice as an item over eviolite
3) we all know this , its useless as long as it cannot setup belly drum.
the second point being more effective in stopping magby from being broken .
But , with screens support from natu , or sometimes even the uncommon staryu screen , magby is really a strong threat . I second Sciroccoo , Bruh Wobuffet and Drifting that light clay as an item is really overpowered in a tier like lc and is defininately suspect or ban worthy.

First, for all of those calcs, why would Magby be switching into these mons without a free switch?
Secondly, Sucker Punch fails if it goes second, and Magby can either just use Belly Drum or Mach Punch. Both make Sucker Punch unusable.
Thirdly, You're only using Grassy Seed Grookey in your calculations. That one has the best shot at dealing with Magby due to Acrobatics, however that means that you've used up your one defense boost throughout the game.
Fourth, Magby is faster than all of them so it can just Belly Drum and take each hit at full health due to consuming berry juice. This also makes the possible Knock Off from Pawniard deal 50% less damage due to lack of an item.
Finally, I'd be down to suspect Light Clay, but thats not what this ban is about. Its about Magby. Therefore, because we're still dealing with 8 turn screens, which you believe is too strong, I am in favor of banning Magby,

 

[Novax]

First, for all of those calcs, why would Magby be switching into these mons without a free switch?
Secondly, Sucker Punch fails if it goes second, and Magby can either just use Belly Drum or Mach Punch. Both make Sucker Punch unusable.
Thirdly, You're only using Grassy Seed Grookey in your calculations. That one has the best shot at dealing with Magby due to Acrobatics, however that means that you've used up your one defense boost throughout the game.
Fourth, Magby is faster than all of them so it can just Belly Drum and take each hit at full health due to consuming berry juice. This also makes the possible Knock Off from Pawniard deal 50% less damage due to lack of an item.
Finally, I'd be down to suspect Light Clay, but thats not what this ban is about. Its about Magby. Therefore, because we're still dealing with 8 turn screens, which you believe is too strong, I am in favor of banning Magby,

even though magby takes 50% less damage from pawniard after belly drum , its risks running into twave pawniard . also no item knock off does 65-80% which is still a decent amount. Its the same case with natu . Both sometimes run twave and you wont want your best sweeper to be paralysed while trying to belly drum on something like pawniard or natu.If you try to pick up a kill on natu then you also run risks of being threatend to revenge killed by something which comes in (potentially a trapper like trapinch). Moreover , screens which provide a way to setup magby also provide the path to stop a magby from sweeping.I am not saying magby is completely wall-able without any efforts. It needs proper reads and plays just like most other pokemon, the best check to magby is offensively pressuring it with diglet and scarfers and stuffs like hazard and twave or sturdy / sash users / mienfoo fake outs and grassy glide.
edit - life orb grookey can always revenge kill +6 magby with grassy glide ( does a minimum of 50%) - considering you chipped magby while it belly drummed

 

[Sciroccoo]

First, for all of those calcs, why would Magby be switching into these mons without a free switch?
Secondly, Sucker Punch fails if it goes second, and Magby can either just use Belly Drum or Mach Punch. Both make Sucker Punch unusable.
Thirdly, You're only using Grassy Seed Grookey in your calculations. That one has the best shot at dealing with Magby due to Acrobatics, however that means that you've used up your one defense boost throughout the game.
Fourth, Magby is faster than all of them so it can just Belly Drum and take each hit at full health due to consuming berry juice. This also makes the possible Knock Off from Pawniard deal 50% less damage due to lack of an item.
Finally, I'd be down to suspect Light Clay, but thats not what this ban is about. Its about Magby. Therefore, because we're still dealing with 8 turn screens, which you believe is too strong, I am in favor of banning Magby,

1- "I do think I'm down with "Just ban light clay and we should be fine", but the thing is that its not the suspect. Magby is. As much as we would like to change this to ban light clay, that's up to the tier leaders. Based on how we're voting on Magby, I'm content with still banning it. If we could ban screens afterwards, I'd be down for that too."

2- "Finally, I'd be down to suspect Light Clay, but thats not what this ban is about. Its about Magby. Therefore, because we're still dealing with 8 turn screens, which you believe is too strong, I am in favor of banning Magby."

It's interesting how you're contradictary. You admit that Magby is broken because of screens and you assume that Light Clay is an issue so you can't say that you want to ban Magby just because there is a suspect. You have a choice between ban or do not ban. My choice is to not ban Magby because he is not the main issue and by this vote I want to open TL's eyes on the real problem.

 

[ghost]

The purpose of this suspect isn't to vote on a hypothetical different thing (Light Clay) but instead to vote on the actual suspect in front of us (Magby). I would love to ban Light Clay, but we need to face facts: it's the end of the generation and banning Magby would improve the tier. Alternative realities aren't options you can vote for; it's Magby or nothing.

As for Magby itself: I advocated for this suspect in council and will be voting ban. It is readily apparent from SCL that cheese is overbearingly good right now, and most high-level matchups come down to inventing some new way to set up Magby (or Tyrunt) as safely as possible; see Magby sun or even Collette's vile Magby sun screens for examples. Magby simply sets up too easily with screens or memento (which Diglett usually provides but can even come from Koffing or Vulpix) and then has an extremely narrow range of checks that are often bad against the rest of the meta. Magby also has several options (Substitute, Flame Charge, Protect) that can render its counterplay void, so you'd better hope you happen to have the right Magby counterplay and then position yourself perfectly throughout the game as to never give it any daylight. While with screens there's usually a replacement for each banned sweeper, I do not think there is an obvious replacement for Magby and banning it improves the tier with extremely low collateral.

We can and should approach the next generation with a more aggressive tiering philosophy that handles screens from the jump, but for now, we're presented with the option to ban Magby, and we should take it.

 

[LilyAC]

The purpose of this suspect isn't to vote on a hypothetical different thing (Light Clay) but instead to vote on the actual suspect in front of us (Magby). I would love to ban Light Clay, but we need to face facts: it's the end of the generation and banning Magby would improve the tier. Alternative realities aren't options you can vote for; it's Magby or nothing.

this is absolutely right, there’s no scenario where anything else gets banned for a good few months at minimum, so this is our opportunity to nerf cheese

if later down the line the magby ban turns out to be insufficient, and something else replaces it on screens, then perhaps then we can look into banning Light Clay or whatever else
and we won’t have lost anything because magby pretty much doesn’t exist outside of cheese - there’s no collateral at all

 

[Hacker]

How far LC have fallen to suspect… Magby ?!
I’ll be fast and clear : this Pokemon can’t setup safely in face of any top tier mons (except Larvesta).

Magby can setup on 3 of the most common pokemon in the tier; Natu, Koffing, and Pawniard.

So, why are we talking about Magby? Because of Screens !!! Magby is much better thanks to these screens and thanks to Light Clay and it’s the same for others setup sweepers like Tyrunt or Grookey ! So, should we ban these threats too or should we consider that the problem is elsewhere?
In conclusion, Do Not Ban Magby it’s a nonsense, suspect or Ban Light Clay/Screens! Play with your brain and stop suspect every mons like that.

If Light Clay was the only way magby could setup I would be totally in support of a Light Clay ban but as KSG said Magby has other ways of setups that are still very viable to where I think Magby itself is a problem. Also, even if Light Clay was the problem this is the option we are given to end this generation and to improve the tier itself so I think we should take it.

36 SpA Natu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magby: 12-15 (60 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Grookey Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

These calcs don't mean anything, it is faster than all of them and can belly drum back to full hp on all of them. Pawniard also cannot sucker punch Magby as mach punch outprioritizes.

its risks running into twave pawniard

Pawniard cannot fit thunder wave on its standard sets.

just like most other pokemon, the best check to magby is offensively pressuring it with diglet and scarfers and stuffs like hazard and twave or sturdy / sash users / mienfoo fake outs and grassy glide.
edit - life orb grookey can always revenge kill +6 magby with grassy glide ( does a minimum of 50%) - considering you chipped magby while it belly drummed

Grookey dies to mach punch after rocks and a life orb hit. Magby can also possibly run flame body to punish Mienfoo fake out after sacking half your team to kill Magby. And as for hazards you need rocks and 3 layers of spikes for them to pop Magbys berry juice so that isnt really solid counterplay. Sturdy and sash pokemon do exist in lc but they have a number of flaws like hazards damage keeping them from being at full.

My personal take on this matter is Magby with the current state of the metagame is broken, and has no collateral, and this is our final chance to improve this tier so I will be voting ban.

 

[wesh papillon]

ppl acting like the whole 4 turns less would drastically change how good magby is, and not the fact that it needs a whole 1 turn to setup, can safely setup on a variety mons, has set variety to Taylor target specific cores (aka if u roll up to an opp with the right (or wrong depending on pov)) ur basically completly fucked

most high-level matchups come down to inventing some new way to set up Magby (or Tyrunt) as safely as possible; see Magby sun or even Collette's vile Magby sun screens for examples

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8lc-658423

I find it hard to argue that bouli that many any major mistake, up until he sack'd his timmy before sun was up. Tho regardless, 1. I find it hard to argue to that he massively missplayed the opening, tho ur free to point our where if u think im wrong. 2. losing half ur team and halving ur Timburr at pretty much 0 isnt acceptable counterplay? This isnt limited to this game either. Ive seen a lot of ppl trying to argue that losing half ur team, and using Mienfoo's fake out one turn at a time is good counterplay.

Point 2, even if u argue that other mons are good under screens, the treat of magby isnta win power is what puts the archetype of screens over the edge, since its really hard to check the combination of both tyrunt and magby.

Exhibit 1: rock types, congrats onix players, you have managed to check the opposing tyrunt, wow good job, u lose to magby now :), same thing to you, mudbray players, once ur low u dont check magby anymore !! These would be good runt checks if mag didnt exist hmmmmmmmmm

Exhibit 2: Grookey/ pawn is ur only prio that can revenge tyrunt? Gratz, it looks like you killing tyrunt lets in magby which now sets up to +6! wow, what a terrible misplay It was to revenge kill the runt, shoulda positioned better obviously. Or maybe build better teams with one of the whole *checks notes* 3 whole mons that can beat magby at +6?

Exhibit 2.5: to the " oh but just use scarf frill, scarf golett, evio dig ppl": these mons are laughably inneficient in any non magby mu other than on very selective teams, and are generally just not splashable in the builder at all. They arguably also all to runt anyways so wtv lol.

 

[Sciroccoo]

Magby can setup on 3 of the most common pokemon in the tier; Natu, Koffing, and Pawniard.

If Light Clay was the only way magby could setup I would be totally in support of a Light Clay ban but as KSG said Magby has other ways of setups that are still very viable to where I think Magby itself is a problem. Also, even if Light Clay was the problem this is the option we are given to end this generation and to improve the tier itself so I think we should take it.

These calcs don't mean anything, it is faster than all of them and can belly drum back to full hp on all of them. Pawniard also cannot sucker punch Magby as mach punch outprioritizes.

Pawniard cannot fit thunder wave on its standard sets.

Grookey dies to mach punch after rocks and a life orb hit. Magby can also possibly run flame body to punish Mienfoo fake out after sacking half your team to kill Magby. And as for hazards you need rocks and 3 layers of spikes for them to pop Magbys berry juice so that isnt really solid counterplay. Sturdy and sash pokemon do exist in lc but they have a number of flaws like hazards damage keeping them from being at full.

My personal take on this matter is Magby with the current state of the metagame is broken, and has no collateral, and this is our final chance to improve this tier so I will be voting ban.

" Magby can setup on 3 of the most common pokemon in the tier; Natu, Koffing, and Pawniard. "

1- Natu
* Natu can run twave so it'd be stupid to setup Magby without scouting Natu's set.

* 36 SpA Natu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magby: 12-15 (60 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15).
Ok you need rock but with rock you can kill Magby with Psychic + Fake Out or Grassy Glide. Magby can setup on Natu

2- Koffing
* 196 SpA Koffing Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magby: 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16).
You need rock again but how you setup Magby vs Koffing? And you have 30% chance to be poisonned, it's too risky.

3- Pawniard
* Like Natu, Pawn can run twave.

* 156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magby: 12-15 (60 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)
With rock again but it's the same as Natu. Magby can setup on Pawn

In conclusion, ok try to setup Magby on Koffing, Natu or Pawn but do it without rocks and without a prio user able to revenge kill, or a scarf user, or a bulky mon who can take 1 hit from +6 Magby...
Once again, if we ban Magby only to nerf HO then it's a bad idea imo. If Tyrunt was suspect, should we ban it in order to nerf HO? I think this is a flawed logic.

Edit :following reactions here and elsewhere, I just want to tell that I don’t claim to hold the truth and I just want to bring elements to defend my side while respecting others opinions ofc.

Edit 2: following discussions on Discord, I note that I did a mistake. My calcs are false considering that Magby will Belly Drum at first and will return at 100% which meaning Magby will not be in range of priority. I rectified these mistakes and indeed, Magby cannot setup on Pawn and Natu but it's still risky to setup on Koffing. Once again, sorry.