Gen 3 Latias (Ubers) [Complete]

[OVERVIEW]

With Soul Dew, Latias is a versatile Pokemon offensively and defensively. Its typing, Levitate, and good Speed let it check Kyogre and Groudon, the strongest attackers in the tier, while avoiding Spikes damage. Latias can also answer many special attackers thanks to Soul Dew's Special Defense boost. Unfortunately for Latias, its typing leaves it weak to common Ice- and Ghost-type attacks. It also dislikes status, especially paralysis, even on sets with Refresh. Finally, Latias is often outclassed by Latios, which boasts a higher Special Attack stat to immediately pressure foes more. Nevertheless, Latias is a better Calm Mind sweeper and a more consistent check to aforementioned threats, as its bulk gives it more resilience to a critical hit or full paralysis turn. Generally, Latias is only worth a teamslot over Latios on bulky teams that need its long-term efficacy or a wincon.


[SET]
name: BoltBeam
move 1: Thunder
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

This set primarily acts as a check to powerful Pokemon such as Groudon, Kyogre, and Latios. Refresh helps Latias consistently check threats, but Latias should still avoid status, as a full paralysis will severely hinder it. Recover lets Latias take multiple hits from super effective coverage moves, mainly Kyogre's Ice Beam and Groudon's Hidden Power Ghost. Thunder and Ice Beam hit Kyogre, Groudon, and Latios super effectively and almost the entire tier for at least neutral damage. 140 Speed EVs with a Timid nature let Latias outspeed Modest Latios and any unboosted Groudon or Kyogre. 252 HP leverages its advantage in bulk over Latios.

Dragon Claw is an option over Ice Beam, trading power against Groudon for extra damage against Latios; this is best for teams that already have significant Groudon countermeasures. It is also possible to use Calm Mind over Refresh for Latias to double as a wincon, but this will hamper its matchup against Thunder Wave variants of Groudon and Kyogre, and Latias will still lose to Blissey. Dropping Refresh generally requires a Blissey on one's team to heal status and counter Thunder Wave Kyogre. Furthermore, if opting for Dragon Claw over Ice Beam, one can switch Latias's Special Attack and HP investments to use it as a lead. With this spread, Latias can 2HKO Mewtwo and has enough bulk to take two Ice Beams from Mewtwo, forcing it to use Self-Destruct. However, Calm Mind variants of Mewtwo can use Latias as setup fodder. Finally, a spread of 192 HP / 176 SpA / 140 Spe with a Timid nature retains the ability to survive Spell Tag Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full health and hits foes harder, but this spread particularly is often outclassed by Latios, which can survive the same hit with more offensive presence.

This set's biggest flaw is that it suffers in comparison to Latios. Latios's significantly higher offensive presence pressures Groudon and Kyogre much more effectively, most notably securing the 2HKO on Kyogre even when switching in on its Calm Mind. As such, careful thought should be given if Latias's bulk is needed over Latios's power.

Team Options
========

Although a good check to Groudon and Kyogre, Latias should not be the sole check to either threat. If SubSalac Groudon can find a turn to set up, including from full paralysis, it can OHKO Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost. Therefore, another check to Groudon such as Lugia or Ho-Oh is necessary. Similarly, it is generally wise to have a backup check to opposing Kyogre, such as a Blissey or your own Kyogre with Thunder.

Pokemon that commonly switch into Latias include Snorlax, Blissey, and Ho-Oh. The former two can generally be handled with a Steel-type that can set up Spikes, such as Skarmory or Forretress, or hit hard physically, such as Metagross. Ho-Oh is checked by physical walls that are not overly concerned with sun-boosted Sacred Fire or burn, such as a Lugia backed up by cleric Blissey or a physically defensive Ho-Oh of one's own.


[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
evs: 240 HP / 172 Def / 96 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

The set acts as a wincon that can beat Blissey with Recover, Refresh, and Calm Mind. Calm Mind allows Latias to overwhelm its defensive answers and clean a weakened team; Dragon Claw is a powerful STAB attack alongside it with few sturdy resistant foes. Refresh cleanses Toxic from Blissey and paralysis from Groudon's and Kyogre's Thunder Wave, and possibly Snorlax's Body Slam. Another option is using Reflect over Refresh, making this Latias much more effective at checking and setting up on physical attackers. The given HP and Defense EVs complement Latias's extraordinary Special Defense, especially with Calm Mind, and help it take attacks from weaker physical attackers such as uninvested Ho-Oh. They also let Latias take Choice Band Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full health. The Speed investment is important to beat neutral base 90s, namely Kyogre and Groudon.

252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe with a Timid nature lets Latias outspeed Modest Latios at the cost of being weaker to physical attackers. It is also possible to use a spread of 172 HP / 240 Def / 96 Spe, retaining the Bold nature, to still outspeed most Groudon and Kyogre while tanking Groudon's +2 Hidden Power Ghost, allowing it to act as a backup check to SubSalac Groudon; this will cut into Latias's special bulk noticeably, however.

Team Options
========

This set is somewhat self-sufficient, being able to beat most of Latias's defensive answers, namely Blissey, Ho-Oh without significant Attack investment, and some Snorlax lacking Curse and Shadow Ball. Although Latias can take a hit from Deoxys-A, it is prone to chip damage and cannot afford to spam Recover. Therefore, checks to these threats, often a Steel-type like Metagross or Forretress, are necessary. Pokemon like Groudon and Kyogre can check Steel-types that can use Latias as fodder, like Spikes Forretress, Calm Mind Jirachi, and Metagross. Furthermore, as this set is less effective at taking on opposing Groudon and Kyogre, other answers to those are important, such as a Lugia + Blissey core.



[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Running Thunderbolt over Thunder on sun-based teams may seem appealing, but the loss of damage output against Ho-Oh and Kyogre is significant, generally causing Latias to lose the latter matchup while not meaningfully improving the former. Roar is an interesting option with a couple of purposes. On the Calm Mind set, it can be used to set up against an opposing Calm Mind user that would otherwise beat it and phaze the foe afterwards, gaining a significant advantage. On the BoltBeam set, it can be used as insurance against Calm Mind users that can set up to take on Latias. On both sets, Roar is also general insurance against setup Pokemon that can threaten the bulkier teams on which Latias naturally fits. Dropping a move for Roar is difficult, however; the most plausible option is Refresh, which will leave Latias much weaker against status from Groudon, Kyogre, and Blissey. Safeguard is an option over Refresh, but it's unable to prevent Latias from taking status while switching in, which broadly makes it a much less desirable option.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Special Walls**: Blissey's incredible special bulk can generally take on Latias indefinitely. However, the Calm Mind set can defeat most Blissey, although there are specialized Blissey sets that can beat this Latias set with Snatch, Psych Up, or Calm Mind. Even standard Blissey can force Latias to use Recover or Refresh, allowing an offensive answer such as Deoxys-A to switch in. Snorlax can take Latias's attacks and hit hard back with Shadow Ball or Body Slam, threaten a Body Slam paralysis, or even set up Curse. Deoxys-D can switch in and threaten to remove Soul Dew with Knock Off or set up Spikes. +6 Latias can overpower it even lacking Soul Dew, although a faster Deoxys-D with Taunt can prevent it from boosting. Ho-Oh's massive Special Defense and Recover allow it to take most of Latias's attacks comfortably and hit back hard with Shadow Ball; however, offensive Ho-Oh fears Thunder in rain, and defensive Ho-Oh may not be able to do sufficient damage to prevent a physically defensive Latias from setting up. Jirachi can usually beat Latias thanks to its bulk and resistances to Ice and Dragon. Jirachi can paralyze Latias with Body Slam, Thunder, or Thunder Wave, hit it hard with Shadow Ball, or set up on it with Calm Mind.

**Offensive Checks**: Deoxys-A can heavily damage Latias, but it will be OHKOed by any of Latias's attacks and cannot guarantee an OHKO on even non-physically defensive Latias without a Choice Band. Metagross can switch into Dragon Claw or Ice Beam and threaten to hit Latias hard or use Explosion. Heracross can also usually check Latias, surviving even a +1 Dragon Claw and threatening to KO it back with Megahorn given minimal chip damage.

**Setup Sweepers**: Calm Mind Kyogre will usually beat Calm Mind Latias one-on-one, and even Thunder Latias will be hard-pressed as it cannot 2HKO Kyogre if Latias switches in as Kyogre uses Calm Mind. Groudon can generate a free turn by forcing Latias to use Refresh as it switches into Thunder Wave multiple times, eventually resulting in a full paralysis, using the opportunity to set up a Swords Dance and then usually OHKO Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost.

**Niche Checks**: Umbreon can take a couple attacks from Latias, trap it with Mean Look, and pivot with Baton Pass to a counter; Regice can take multiple hits with its massive Special Defense stat and retaliate with Explosion or STAB Ice Beam; Registeel has incredible special bulk and a fantastic typing, using Latias to set up with Curse or removing it with Explosion; Steelix can switch into Dragon Claw and Thunder to hit Latias hard; and Shedinja takes no damage whatsoever from any of Latias's attacks barring the obscure Hidden Power Fire and retaliates with STAB Shadow Ball. None of these Pokemon are generally recommended, however.


[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Ajencis, 479200]]
- Quality checked by: [[SuperEpicAmpharos, 306959], [Inspirited, 127823]]
- Grammar checked by: [[Finland, 517429], [UT, 523866]]
 
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Exiline

Banned deucer.
is a Past SCL Championis a Two-Time Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Championis a Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
Thunder should really not be slashed with thunderbolt, the latter doing next to 0 damage and actually making you lose the kyogre 1v1 while not even doing enough to beat ho-oh under the sun anyway

Also doing a more in depth list of the pros and cons of using latias over latios could be a very welcomed addition I think
 
Thunder Dclaw Latias leads only "beat" Fire Blast Boomtwo. CM Mewtwo don't have to boom since they win clean by clicking CM T1.

I think it's really important to mention that Mono Latias is really bad as a Kyogre "check". Basically every variant of CM Kyogre just rolls right over it and even Twave 3 attacks is going to give her a hard time if she tries switching into it. Hell, sometimes CM Kyogre can switch into Mono Latias and then beat her in the CM war, lol. You also aren't super great as a check to SD Twave Gdon.

idk how accepted it is but I like running Roar over Refresh sometimes on my Mono Latias. Needs cleric and spike support, though.

CM Blissey also beats Mono Latias and even standard Blissey can force Mono Latias into clicking moves that lets CB Deo-A come in for free.

Knock Off + Taunt Deo-D can mostly beat Mono Latias by PP stalling Dclaw with Pressure.

Does Steelix just not exist anymore? Registeel, too? Jirachi?

I don't like writing off Regice/Umbreon as shitmons but maybe that's the consensus on them, atm?

Heracross works as a check vs Mono Latias in a pinch. You might even trigger its Salac Berry if you attack into it with +1 Dclaw.

A bit off topic but is there a way to archive the current analyses someplace on this site? They are really interesting/funny to read from a historic perspective.
 
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Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
I'm experimenting with a couple of spreads for the bolt beam set to help against the 370 atk (adamant with 0-4 EVs invested) Groudon that are run since these do OHKO max HP Latias at +2 Atk. I'm trying to work other benchmarks into this like 3HKO from modest max Kyogre since that is pretty doable as well as the 320 Spe / 296 Spe benchmarks. I generally forego Latias so these experiments are probably gonna take time and I am probably going to be relying on steelskitty for these sorts of things.
Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 240 Def / 132 SpA / 56 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Refresh

Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 80 HP / 236 Def / 52 SpA / 140 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
- Recover
- Refresh


The mono claw Latias REALLY wants Spikes on its team with no exception imo. It's teams need to be really careful in construction in order to not get rolled by physical Deo-A and therefor makes them somewhat restrictive so maybe a clause about this is warranted if you don't want to be recovering forever to stay out of Shadow Ball range. You're basically forced into double-steel structures that apply heavy pressure on Kyogre or deo-d + gross + double eon stuff when you're using this in my personal opinion. Maybe there is a Groudon + Ho-Oh thing that this fits on also but I have yet to find it due to Groudon + Ho-Oh (mostly Ho-Oh) hating Kyogre and Latias not answering it either. Team options should reflect the structures mentioned above imo.

That's all I have so far. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring this.
 
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The mono claw Latias REALLY wants Spikes on its team with no exception imo. It's teams need to be really careful in construction in order to not get rolled by physical Deo-A and therefor makes them somewhat restrictive so maybe a clause about this is warranted if you don't want to be recovering forever to stay out of Shadow Ball range. You're basically forced into double-steel structures that apply heavy pressure on Kyogre or deo-d + gross + double eon stuff when you're using this in my personal opinion. Maybe there is a Groudon + Ho-Oh thing that this fits on also but I have yet to find it due to Groudon + Ho-Oh (mostly Ho-Oh) hating Kyogre and Latias not answering it either. Team options should reflect the structures mentioned above imo.

That's all I have so far. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring this.
i appreciate your looking at this!
my inclination is to not go into this much depth in the team options, lest an already probably far too long analysis become even more unwieldy. i expounded the section about deoa and added a note about needing other answers to ogre and don, though. do you think it's plausible to go into more detail here somewhat concisely?
i already probably have too many spreads on here so i'm hesitant about adding another unless maybe i remove one of the current ones


i also spoke to SuperEpicAmpharos on the discord and they qced the analysis; the changes discussed should be implemented
 

Lasen

smiling through it all
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Do fix all the mentions of Latias and Latios being gendered; also, make the checks and counters follow this format:


Code:
**Insert Counterplay Here**: Describe the counterplay / check / counter.

**Insert Counterplay Here**: Describe the counterplay / check / counter.

On a more traditional QC note, I'd like to see the paragraph comparing Latias and Latios merged into one.
[OVERVIEW]

Latias' value lies in her and her brother's exclusive held item, Soul Dew, which boosts her special stats immensely. Furthermore, her typing gives her a resistance to Kyogre's STAB and her ability an immunity to Groudon's, allowing her to check the strongest attackers in the tier. With an extraordinary boosted Special Defence and an above-average Speed, she can also serve as check to many special attackers. (mention Levitate making Latias immune to Spikes, something extremely important for a "defensive" Pokemon that cannot run Leftovers) Unfortunately for her, her typing has its flaws too, leaving her with a weakness to common Ice- and Ghost-type attacks. She also suffers from a vulnerability to status, especially paralysis, even when using Refresh. Finally, she can suffer from comparison to her brother, who boasts a higher Special Attack stat; and Latias' Special Attack is often enough insufficient.

It is worthwhile here to indulge in a digression relating to the use of Latios against that of Latias. The difference between the two lies in their irrelevant Attack stats,(remove this, no need to bring up) Latias' greater defences, and Latios' superior Special Attack. Unfortunately for Latias, the Special Attack difference is in most cases more important than that in bulk, as Latios' better firepower allows it to offensively check most Pokemon nearly as well as Latias' greater bulk (maybe it's an ESL moment, but this sentence is... odd. maybe rephrase?) as well as pose a greater threat to the opposing team and to be able to push through its less resilient checks, like Snorlax and Ho-Oh(Ho-Oh has reliable recovery, maybe mention Metagross?), more effectively. Generally, Latias is preferable when the use of the teamslot to check Kyogre and Groudon is much more important than that to pressure the opposing team. Latias' use of bulk rather than firepower to check also makes it more resilient to ill luck and when playing predictably, because it can afford better to take an extra stray hit and has more opportunity to recover from mistakes. These generally mean that Latias is best used on more defensive teams, that have less dependance on offensive pressure as part of their strategy.(I'd also like to see a point in the overview explaining that Latias can be a good special attacker and even a sweeper under the right circumstances; is it worse at that job than Latios? Most definitely, but it can still pull it off quite well, as is evident by the first being a CM one.)


[SET]
name: Monoattacker
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
evs: 240 HP / 172 Def / 96 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

The purpose of this Latias is to act as a win condition that can beat Blissey with Recover, Refresh, and Calm Mind. Here, her Defense investment complements her extraordinary Special Defense, allowing her to take physical hits more effectively. This physical bulk also helps her take attacks from weaker physical attackers such as uninvested Ho-Oh, and increases the amount of chip necessary for avoids getting OHKOed by Choice Band Deoxys-Attack's to KO with Shadow Ball from full. The speed investment is important to beat neutral base 90s - principally Kyogre and Groudon. Refresh here is used in large part to allow her to take Toxics from Blissey as well as its other use in removing paralysis from Groudon's and Kyogre's Thunder Wave and Snorlax' Body Slam. Calm Mind is the focus of this set, allowing Latias to defeat her defensive answers; and Dragon Claw is the attacking move of choice, being a Stab move with few resistances that have significant special bulk. Another option is using Reflect over Refresh, making this Latias much more effective at checking and setting up on physical attackers, at the expense of its ability to beat Blissey and its solidity as a Thunder Wave Groudon and Kyogre check. Note that this Latias' damage output against Groudon and Kyogre is much less, making it rather worse as a check to them - most notably, Kyogre with Calm Mind can usually set up on this Latias.(don't cross reference sets by saying things like "this Latias [set], you can simply state that set-up Kyogre can beat this and as such, one should be careful of the match up.)

A faster Latias is possible, running 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe with a Timid nature and outspeeding Modest Latios, significantly improving that matchup at the cost of a greater weakness to physical attackers. It is also possible to use a spread of 172 HP / 240 Def / 96 Spe, retaining the Bold nature, to maintain the ability to outspeed most Groudon and Kyogre while also tanking Groudon's +2 HP Ghost, allowing her to act as a backup check to SubSalac Groudon; this will cut into Latias' special bulk noticeably, however.

Team Options
========

This Latias is somewhat self-sufficient, being able to beat most of her erstwhile defensive counters - primarily Blissey but also Ho-Oh with less Attack investment and some Snorlax lacking Curse and Shadow Ball. Responses to more offensive checks this remain important, requiring a consistent Deoxys-Attack switchin, often a Steel-type such as Metagross or Forretress, as Latias accrues chip quite easily and cannot afford to continuously spend turns using Recover to avoid a potential KO from Deoxys-Attack; as well as an answer to Steels that can set up on her like Spikes Forretress and Calm Mind Jirachi or those like Metagross that can do significant damage. Furthermore, as this Latias' ability to take on Groudon and Kyogre is much reduced, other answers to those are important, such as a Lugia + Blissey core.


[SET]
name: Boltbeam
move 1: Thunder
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

This set primarily acts as a check to the powerful Pokemon that inhabit the tier - Groudon, Kyogre, and Latios. Its speed investment is sufficient to beat any unboosted Groudon or Kyogre as well as Modest Latios; 252 HP leverages its advantage in bulk over Latios. Refresh is necessary, as Latias is very vulnerable to status; and even with Refresh can be taken down by eventual full paralysis from repeated Thunder Waves. Latias' bulk is significant, but Recover is necessary to avoid being slain by taking multiple hits from super-effective coverage, mainly Kyogre's Ice Beam and Groudon's Hidden Power Ghost. Thunder and Ice Beam hit Kyogre, Groudon, and Latios super-effectively and almost the entire remainder of the tier for at least neutral damage.

Dragon Claw is an option over Ice Beam, trading power against Groudon for extra efficacy against Latios; this will weaken your Groudon matchup and is best against teams that have significant Groudon countermeasures otherwise. It is also possible to use Calm Mind over Refresh; this will hamper your utility against Thunder Wave variants of Groudon and Kyogre and will still lose to Blissey but will allow Latias to double as a win condition; dropping Refresh generally implies a Blissey on one's team to heal stray status that finds Latias and to counter Thunder Wave Kyogre. Furthermore, if opting for Dragon Claw over Ice Beam one can switch this Latias' Special Attack and HP investment to make a lead that can force lead Mewtwo to Selfdestruct by 2hkoing it and avoiding being 2hkoed itself - unless Mewtwo has Calm Mind, in which case Latias will be set up on.(rephrase this slightly "as a lead, a Latias with this spread both 2HKOs Mewtwo and has enough bulk for Mewtwo's Ice Beam to not 2HKO back, forcing it to Selfdestruct. However, Calm Mind variants can use Latias as set up opportunities and as such Latias isn't always favored". or dont idk) Finally, a spread of 192 HP / 176 SpA / 140 Spe with a Timid nature retains the ability to survive a Spell Tag Deoxys-Attack Shadow Ball from full health and its extra Special Attack is a notable boon, but this spread particularly suffers in comparaison (fix spelling) to Latios, which can survive the same hit with more offensive presence, albeit less special bulk.

This set's biggest flaw is that it particularly suffers in comparaison (fix spelling) to Latios. Latios' significantly higher offensive presence allows it to check Groudon and Kyogre much more effectively, most notably securing the 2hko on Kyogre even when switching in on its Calm Mind. As such, careful thought should be given when choosing this Latias over Latios, lest you weaken your team against Groudon and Kyogre to no benefit.

Team Options
========

Although a good check to Groudon and Kyogre, Latias is generally by itself not sufficient. In addition to troubles with risking full paralyses, if SubSalac Groudon can find a turn to set up on something it forces out, it can ohko this Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost. As such, another check to Groudon is necessary, such as a Lugia or a Ho-Oh. Similarly, it is generally wise to have a backup check to Kyogre, such as a Blissey or another Kyogre of your own with Thunder.

Pokemon that commonly switch into Latias include Blissey, Snorlax, and Ho-Oh; and you should have a means to switch into those on your team. Blissey and Snorlax can generally be handled with a Steel-type, as long as it can set up, such as Skarmory or Forretress with Spikes or hit hard physically, such as Metagross. Ho-Oh generally want a physical wall that is not overly concerned with sun-boosted Sacred Fire or its burns, such as a Lugia backed up by Cleric Blissey or a physically defensive Ho-Oh of one's own. (Celebi helps act as a Groudon check that can even give you cleric support, it's a Snorlax answer, something this Latias hates)



[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

- Running Thunderbolt over Thunder on sun-based teams may seem appealing, but the former's loss of damage output against Ho-Oh and Kyogre is significant and will generally cause Latias to lose to the latter while not meaningfully improving its matchup against the former, and thus Thunder is always reccommended.
- Roar is an interesting option, with a couple of purposes. On the monoattacker set, it can be used to set up Calm Minds against another of its users that would otherwise beat it and Roar its foe out afterwards, gaining a significant advantage. On the boltbeam set, it can be used as insurance against Calm Mind users that can set up to take Latias' hits - if the foe attacks Latias can retaliate against its unboosted defences, and if the foe sets up Latias can roar it out. On both sets, Roar is also general insurance against setup Pokemon that can threaten the bulkier teams on which Latias naturally fits. Dropping a move for Roar is difficult, however; the most plausible option is Refresh, which will leave Latias much weaker against Thunder Wave Groudon and Kyogre and against Blissey.
- On a boltbeam set with Calm Mind it is possible to invest in Special Defence rather than Special Attack. The primary purpose of this is to soften blows from opposing Latias and Latios, allowing Latias to set up Calm Minds on them; this often means the use of Dragon Claw over Ice Beam as well to better target opposing Latis. (not sure how to feel about this, feels "win more")
- Safeguard is an option over Refresh, but is unable to prevent Latias from taking status on the switchin, which is a significant downside and broadly makes Safeguard a much less desirable option.

Checks and Counters
===================

Generally, switchins for Latias are those pokemon with enough special bulk to take her attacks. The all-purpose special wall, Blissey, can generally take on Latias indefinitely, taking little from any of her attacks. Latias sets with Calm Mind, Recover, and Refresh together can defeat most Blissey, although there are specialized Blissey sets that can beat this Latias with Snatch, Psych Up, or Calm Mind; and even standard Blissey can force Latias to Recover or Refresh, allowing an offensive answer such as Deoxys-Attack a switchin.

Snorlax has enough special bulk to take Latias' attacks and can hit hard back with Shadow Ball or Body Slam, threaten a Body Slam paralysis, or even set up Curses on Latias. Deoxys-Defense can switch in and threaten to Knock Off Latias' Soul Dew or set up Spikes, though it can be overpowered by a +6 Latias even lacking Soul Dew; though on the rare occasion that Deoxys-Defense is faster than Latias and has Taunt it can beat monoattacking Latias by preventing it from boosting. Ho-Oh's massive Special Defense and Recover allow it to take most of Latias' attacks comfortably and it can hit back hard with its great Attack and Shadow Ball; however, it will have to be wary of Thunders in the rain, especially if it is offensive, and if defensive may not be able to do sufficient damage to prevent a physically defensive Latias from setting up. Jirachi can usually beat Latias with its large bulk and Ice and Dragon resistances by paralyzing Latias with Body Slam, Thunder, or Thunder Wave; hitting it hard with Shadow Ball; or setting up on it with Calm Mind.

The primary offensive pivot that can threaten Latias out is Deoxys-Attack. Deoxys-Attack, however, will be slain immediately by any of Latias' attacks, and cannot threaten to KO latias without chip unless Deoxys holds a Choice Band, and even then a Latias with significant Defense investment can survive and KO back. Metagross also has significant offensive power, allowing it to threaten to hit Latias hard or Explode on it, while its fortuitous typing allows it to resist Latias' STAB and switch in on her Ice Beam. Other Steels are riskier, with Forretress not able to threaten it directly barring an Explosion, and Skarmory usually lacking the special bulk to take even resisted attacks consistently. Both can set up Spikes, though, and Skarmory can Whirlwind Latias away. Heracross can also usually check Latias, surviving even a +1 Dragon Claw and threatening to KO her back with Megahorn given minimal chip.

Finally, there exist less common checks to Latias: Umbreon can take a couple attacks and threaten to trap her with Mean Look and pass to a counter; Regice can take hits with its massive Special Defense stat and retaliate with STAB Ice Beam or Explosion; Registeel has incredible special bulk and a fantastic typing and can set up with Curse or Explode on Latias; Steelix resists Dragon Claw and is immune to Thunder and has reasonable ability to hit Latias hard; and Shedinja takes no damage whatsoever from any of Latias' attacks however boosted barring the obscure Hidden Power Fire and can retaliate with STAB Shadow Ball. None of these mons are recommended, however.
this is almost a QC check, do ping one of us on discord to check this again once implemented.
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
I take back what I said about mono attacker being the better set because after using bolt beam to help facilitate some frailer teams that appreciate the ability to consistently SI don/ogre it has a more clear role in the tier than the mono attacker to me. Bolt Beam goes above mono attacker.

Outside of this, I'm going to need you to reformat C&C like Lasen brought up.
 
problems lasen noticed should hopefully be addressed; i very much appreciate the help

i agree with boltbeam > mono but i have the idea that consensus would say otherwise; if others could chime in that would be appreciated

i've seen a bit more boltbeam cm recently; notably both roa samples that have latias have that set. perhaps cm is worth a slash on boltbeam?
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
I take back what I said about mono attacker being the better set because after using bolt beam to help facilitate some frailer teams that appreciate the ability to consistently SI don/ogre it has a more clear role in the tier than the mono attacker.
When Boltbeam is above the mono attacker this will be ready.
 
AMGP << not official
Please stop using "This Latias" :psywoke:
add/fix remove (comments)
(AC) add comma (RC) remove comma (SC) semicolon (FS) fullstop

[OVERVIEW]

Latias' value lies in its exclusive held item, Soul Dew, which boosts its special stats immensely Furthermore, its typing and ability give it a resistance to Kyogre's STAB and an immunity to Groudon's, which combined with its Speed allows it to check the strongest attackers in the tier; Levitate also grants it an immunity to Spikes important for a reactive Pokemon that does not use Leftovers. With an extraordinary boosted Special Defence and an above-average Speed, it With Soul Dew, Latias is a versatile Pokemon offensively and defensively. Its typing, Levitate, and good Speed let it check Kyogre and Groudon, the strongest attackers in the tier, while avoiding Spikes damage. Latias can also serve as an answer to many special attackers thanks to Soul Dew's Special Defense boost. Unfortunately for Latias, its typing has its flaws too, leaving it with a weakness leaves it weak to common Ice- and Ghost-type attacks. It also suffers from a vulnerability to dislikes status, especially paralysis, even when using Refresh. Finally, it Latias can suffer from in comparison to Latios, who which boasts a higher Special Attack stat to pressure foes more effectively. Although Latias' bulk is greater, Latios' greater offensive presence generally allows it to pressure both foes it checks and its switch-ins more effectively. Nevertheless, Latias can somewhat more effectively check foes repeatedly is a better Calm Mind sweeper and a more consistent check to aforementioned threats,(AC) as its bulk gives it more resilience to luck in general in case of a critical hit or full paralysis. This bulk can instead be capitalized on to set up with Calm Mind more effectively than Latios can and become a threatening special attacker. Generally, Latias is only worth a teamslot over Latios on defensive teams that need its long-term efficacy or a win condition. (Does Latias also work on balanced teams? Defensive teams usually refers to stall. If so change defensive to bulky)


[SET]
name: Boltbeam
move 1: Thunder
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

This set primarily acts as a check to the powerful Pokemon such as that inhabit the tier - Groudon, Kyogre, and Latios. Its speed investment 140 Speed EVs with a Timid nature is sufficient to beat let Latias outspeed Modest Latios and any unboosted Groudon or Kyogre as well as Modest Latios. 252 HP leverages its advantage in bulk over Latios, and the remainder is in Special Attack to maximize damage those it checks more effectively. Refresh is necessary, as Latias is very vulnerable to status; and even with Refresh can be taken down by eventual full paralysis from repeated Thunder Waves. Refresh helps Latias consistently check threats, but Latias should still avoid status, as a full paralysis will severely hinder it. Latias' bulk is significant, but Recover is required to avoid being slain by taking lets Latias take multiple hits from super(RH) effective coverage moves, mainly Kyogre's Ice Beam and Groudon's Hidden Power Ghost. Thunder and Ice Beam hit Kyogre, Groudon, and Latios super(RH) effectively and almost the entire remainder of the tier for at least neutral damage.

Dragon Claw is an option over Ice Beam, trading power against Groudon for extra efficacy damage against Latios; this will weaken your Groudon matchup and is best against for teams that already have significant Groudon countermeasures otherwise. It is also possible to use Calm Mind over Refresh for Latias to double as a win condition,(RC,remove SC) but this will hamper your utility Latias's matchup against Thunder Wave variants of Groudon and Kyogre and Latias will still lose to Blissey but will allow Latias to double as a win condition(FS,remove SC) Dropping Refresh on Latias generally requires a Blissey on one's team to heal stray status that finds Latias and to counter Thunder Wave Kyogre.
Furthermore, if opting for Dragon Claw over Ice Beam,(AC) one can switch this Latias's Special Attack and HP investment to use it as a lead. A Latias With this spread,(AC) Latias can both 2HKOs Mewtwo and has enough bulk for take 2 Ice Beam from Mewtwo Mewtwo's Ice Beam to not 2HKO back, forcing it to use Self Destruct. However, Calm Mind variants of Mewtwo can use Latias as set up opportunities and as such Latias isn't always favored setup fodder. Finally, a spread of 192 HP / 176 SpA / 140 Spe with a Timid nature retains the Latias's ability to survive a Spell Tag Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full health and its extra Special Attack is a notable boon hit foes harder, but this spread particularly is often outclassed by Latios, which can survive the same hit with more offensive presence(RC) albeit with less special bulk.

This set's biggest flaw is that it suffers in comparison to Latios. Latios' significantly higher offensive presence allows it to check pressures Groudon and Kyogre much more effectively, most notably securing the 2HKO on Kyogre even when switching in on its Calm Mind. As such, careful thought should be given when choosing this Latias over Latios, lest you weaken your team against Groudon and Kyogre to no benefit if Latias's bulk is needed over Latios's power.

Team Options
========

Although a good check to Groudon and Kyogre, Latias is generally by itself not sufficient should not be the sole check to either threats. In addition to troubles with risking Aside from full paralyses, if SubSalac Groudon can find a turn to set up on something it forces out, it can OHKO this Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost. As such, another check to Groudon such as Lugia or Ho-Oh is necessary(RC) such as a Lugia or a Ho-Oh. Similarly, it is generally wise to have a backup check to opposing Kyogre, such as a Blissey or your own another Kyogre of your own with Thunder.

Pokemon that commonly switch into Latias include Snorlax, Blissey, and Ho-Oh.(RC,FS) and especially Snorlax; and you should have a means to switch into those on your team. Blissey and Snorlax The latter two(change makes this sentence link better to the last one) can generally be handled with a Steel-type, as long as it can set up(I don't follow. Neither Skarmory and Forretress are setup Pokemon. What are they setting up?), such as Skarmory or Forretress with Spikes, or hit hard physically, such as Metagross. Celebi is a Groudon check and a solid Snorlax check that can also provide Heal Bell support to Latias' team. Ho-Oh generally want a is checked by physical walls that is are not overly concerned with sun-boosted Sacred Fire or its burn, such as a Lugia backed up by Cleric Blissey or a physically defensive Ho-Oh of one's own.


[SET]
name: Monoattacker
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
evs: 240 HP / 172 Def / 96 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

The purpose of this Latias set is to act as a win condition that can beat Blissey with Recover, Refresh, and Calm Mind. This physical bulk The given HP and Defense EVs complements its Latias's extraordinary Special Defense and helps it take attacks from weaker physical attackers such as uninvested Ho-Oh(RC) and also avoids getting KOed by takes Choice Band Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full. The Speed investment is important to beat neutral base 90s,(AC) namely - principally Kyogre and Groudon. Calm Mind is the focus of this set, allowing Latias to overwhelm its defensive answers and clean a weakened team; Dragon Claw is a powerful STAB attack with few sturdy resists. Refresh here is used both to allow it to take cleanses Toxic from Blissey and to remove paralysis from Groudon's and Kyogre's Thunder Wave and possibly Snorlax's Body Slam. Calm Mind is the focus of this set, allowing Latias to overwhelm its defensive answers and clean a weakened team; and Dragon Claw is the attacking move of choice, being a STAB move with few sturdy resists. Another option is using Reflect over Refresh, making this Latias much more effective at checking and setting up on physical attackers, at the expense of its ability to beat Blissey and its solidity as a Thunder Wave Groudon and Kyogre check the ability to remove status.

A faster Latias is possible, running 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe with a Timid nature and outspeeding let Latias outspeed Modest Latios(RC) significantly improving that matchup at the cost of a greater weakness being weaker to physical attackers. It is also possible to use a spread of 172 HP / 240 Def / 96 Spe, retaining the Bold nature, to maintain the ability to outspeed most Groudon and Kyogre while also tanking Groudon's +2 Hidden Power Ghost, allowing it to act as a backup check to SubSalac Groudon; this will cut into Latias' special bulk noticeably, however.

Team Options
========

This Latias set is somewhat self-sufficient, being able to beat most of its erstwhile defensive counters,(AC,RH) primarily namely Blissey,(AC) but also Ho-Oh with less Attack investment,(AC) and some Snorlax lacking Curse and Shadow Ball. Responses to more offensive checks this remain important, requiring a consistent Deoxys-Attack switchin, often a Steel-type such as Metagross or Forretress, as Latias accrues chip quite easily and cannot afford to continuously spend turns using Recover to avoid a potential KO from Deoxys-Attack. Although Latias can take a hit from Deoxys-A, it is prone to chip and cannot afford to spam Recover. Therefore, checks to offensive threats like Metagross and Forretress are quite useful. Latias' team also needs an answer to Steels that can set up on it like Pokemon like Groudon and Kyogre can check Steel-types which can use Latias as fodder, like Spikes Forretress,(AC) and Calm Mind Jirachi,(AC) and or those like Metagross that can do significant damage; a Groudon or Kyogre can answer these. Furthermore, as this Latias' ability to take set is less effective at taking on opposing Groudon and Kyogre is much reduced, other answers to those are important, such as a Lugia + Blissey core.



[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options (the rest of the analysis is in paragraph form, so shouldnt this be as well?)
=============

- Running Thunderbolt over Thunder on sun-based teams may seem appealing, but the former's loss of damage output against Ho-Oh and Kyogre is significant and will generally cause Latias to lose to the latter while not meaningfully improving its matchup against the former, and thus Thunder is always recommended.
- Roar is an interesting option, with a couple of purposes. On the Monoattacker set, it can be used to set up Calm Mind against another of its users an opposing Calm Mind user that would otherwise beat it and Roar its foe out afterwards, gaining a significant advantage. On the BoltBeam set, it can be used as insurance against Calm Mind users that can set up to take on Latias hits - if the foe attacks Latias can retaliate against its unboosted defences, and if the foe sets up Latias can roar it out. On both sets, Roar is also general insurance against setup Pokemon that can threaten the bulkier teams on which Latias naturally fits. Dropping a move for Roar is difficult, however; the most plausible option is Refresh, which will leave Latias much weaker against status from Thunder Wave Groudon,(AC) and Kyogre,(AC) and against Blissey.
- Safeguard is an option over Refresh, but is unable to prevent Latias from taking status on the switchin upon switching in, which is a significant downside and broadly makes Safeguard a much less desirable option.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Special Walls**: Blissey's incredible special bulk can generally take on Latias indefinitely(RC) taking little from any of its attacks. However, Latias sets with Calm Mind, Recover, and Refresh together can defeat most Blissey, although there are specialized Blissey sets that can beat this Latias set with Snatch, Psych Up, or Calm Mind; and even standard Blissey can force Latias to Recover or Refresh, allowing an offensive answer such as Deoxys-A a switchin to switch in. Snorlax has enough special bulk to take Latias' attacks and can hit hard back with Shadow Ball or Body Slam, threaten a Body Slam paralysis, or even set up Curse on Latias. Deoxys-D can switch in and threaten to Knock Off Latias' Soul Dew or set up Spikes, though but it can be overpowered by a +6 Latias even lacking Soul Dew,(AC) although a faster Deoxys-D with Taunt can prevent it from boosting. If Deoxys-Defense is faster than Latias and has Taunt, however, it can beat any Latias by preventing it from boosting. Ho-Oh's massive Special Defense and Recover allow it to take most of Latias' attacks comfortably and it can hit back hard with its great Attack and Shadow Ball; however, it offensive Ho-Oh will have to be wary of Thunder in the rain, especially if it is offensive, and if defensive Ho-Oh may not be able to do sufficient damage to prevent a physically defensive Latias from setting up. Jirachi can usually beat Latias with thanks to its bulk and resistances to Ice and Dragon;(SC) resistances by paralyzing Jirachi can paralyze Latias with Body Slam, Thunder, or Thunder Wave,(AC,remove SC) hitting hit it hard with Shadow Ball,(AC,remove SC) or setting up on it set up on Latias with Calm Mind.

**Offensive Checks**: Deoxys-Attack can do significant damage if pivoted in on Latias. Deoxys-Attack, however, will be slain immediately by any of Latias' attacks, and cannot threaten to KO Latias without chip unless Deoxys holds a Choice Band, and even then a Latias with significant Defense investment can survive and KO back. Deoxys-A can heavily damage Latias, but it will be OHKOed by any of Latias' attacks and cannot guarantee an OHKO on non-physically defensive Latias without a Choice Band. Metagross also has notable offensive power, allowing it to switching into Dragon Claw or Ice Beam and threatening to hit Latias hard or Explode on it(RC) while its fortuitous typing allows it to easily take Latias' STAB and switch in on its Ice Beam. Heracross can also usually check Latias, surviving even a +1 Dragon Claw and threatening to KO it back with Megahorn given minimal chip.

**Setup Sweepers**: Calm Mind Kyogre will usually beat Calm Mind Latias one-on-one, and even Thunder Latias will be hard-pressed as it cannot 2HKO Kyogre if the latter Latias switches in as Kyogre uses Calm Mind as Latias switches in. Groudon can with Thunder Wave generate a free turn by forcing Latias to Refresh as it switches into Thunder Wave through paralysis multiple times, and can use this turn using the opportunity to set up a Swords Dance and then usually OHKO Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost.

**Niche Checks**: There also exist less common checks to Latias: Umbreon can take a couple attacks,(AC) and threaten to trap it with Mean Look,(AC) and Baton Pass to a counter; Regice can take multiple hits with its massive Special Defense stat and retaliate with Explosion or STAB Ice Beam or Explosion; Registeel has incredible special bulk and a fantastic typing,(AC) and can using Latias to set up with Curse or remove Latias with Explode on Latias; Steelix resists can switch into Dragon Claw and is immune to Thunder and has reasonable ability to hit Latias hard; and Shedinja takes no damage whatsoever from any of Latias' attacks however boosted barring the obscure Hidden Power Fire and can retaliate with STAB Shadow Ball. None of these Pokemon are recommended, however.


[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Ajencis, 479200]]
- Quality checked by: [[SuperEpicAmpharos, 306959], [Inspirited, 127823]]
- Grammar checked by: [[, ], [, ]]
 

Adeleine

after committing a dangerous crime
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Add/Fix Remove Comment
(AC)/(RC): Add/Remove Comma

[OVERVIEW]

With Soul Dew, Latias is a versatile Pokemon offensively and defensively. Its typing, Levitate, and good Speed let it check Kyogre and Groudon, the strongest attackers in the tier, while avoiding Spikes damage. Latias can also serve as an answer to answer many special attackers thanks to Soul Dew's Special Defense boost. Unfortunately for Latias, its typing leaves it weak to common Ice- and Ghost-type attacks. It also dislikes status, especially paralysis, even when using Refresh. Finally, Latias can suffer in comparison to Latios, which boasts a higher Special Attack stat to pressure foes more effectively. immediately pressure foes more. Nevertheless, Latias is a better Calm Mind sweeper and a more consistent check to the aforementioned threats, as its bulk gives it more resilience to a critical hit or full paralysis turn. Generally, Latias is only worth a teamslot over Latios on bulky teams that need its long-term efficacy or a win condition. wincon.


[SET]
name: BoltBeam
move 1: Thunder
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

This set primarily acts as a check to powerful Pokemon such as Groudon, Kyogre, and Latios. 140 Speed EVs awith a Timid nature let Latias outspeed Modest Latios and any unboosted Groudon or Kyogre. 252 HP leverages its advantage in bulk over Latios, and the remainder is in Special Attack to maximize damage. Refresh helps Latias consistently check threats, but Latias should still avoid status, as a full paralysis will severely hinder it. Recover lets Latias take multiple hits from super effective coverage moves, mainly Kyogre's Ice Beam and Groudon's Hidden Power Ghost. Thunder and Ice Beam hit Kyogre, Groudon, and Latios super effectively and almost the entire remainder of the tier for at least neutral damage. 140 Speed EVs with a Timid nature let Latias outspeed Modest Latios and any unboosted Groudon or Kyogre. 252 HP EVs leverage its advantage in bulk over Latios.

Dragon Claw is an option over Ice Beam, trading power against Groudon for extra damage against Latios; this will weaken your Groudon matchup and is best for teams that already have significant Groudon countermeasures. It is also possible to use Calm Mind over Refresh for Latias to double as a win condition, wincon, but this will hamper Latias' its matchup against Thunder Wave variants of Groudon and Kyogre, (AC) and Latias will still lose to Blissey. Dropping Refresh generally requires a Blissey on one's team to heal status and counter Thunder Wave Kyogre. (removed paragraph break) Furthermore, if opting for Dragon Claw over Ice Beam, one can switch Latias's Special Attack and HP investments to use it as a lead. With this spread, Latias can 2HKO Mewtwo and has enough bulk to take 2 Ice Beam two Ice Beams from Mewtwo, (AC) forcing it to use Self-Destruct. (added hyphen) However, Calm Mind variants of Mewtwo can use Latias as setup fodder. Finally, a spread of 192 HP / 176 SpA / 140 Spe with a Timid nature retains the ability to survive Spell Tag Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full health and hits foes harder, but this spread particularly is often outclassed by Latios, which can survive the same hit with more offensive presence.

This set's biggest flaw is that it suffers in comparison to Latios. Latios's significantly higher offensive presence pressures Groudon and Kyogre much more effectively, most notably securing the 2HKO on Kyogre even when switching in on its Calm Mind. As such, careful thought should be given if Latias's bulk is needed over Latios's power.

Team Options
========

Although a good check to Groudon and Kyogre, Latias should not be the sole check to either threat. Aside from full paralyses, If SubSalac Groudon can find a turn to set up, including from full paralysis, (I imagine this makes sense? if not, pls clarify how full paralysis relates to subsalac groudon) it can OHKO Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost. As such, Therefore, another check to Groudon such as Lugia or Ho-Oh is necessary. Similarly, it is generally wise to have a backup check to opposing Kyogre, such as a Blissey or your own Kyogre with Thunder.

Pokemon that commonly switch into Latias include Snorlax, Blissey, and Ho-Oh. The former two can generally be handled with a Steel-type, as long as it a Steel-type that can set up Spikes, such as Skarmory or Forretress, or hit hard physically, such as Metagross. Ho-Oh is cheecked by physical walls that are not overly concerned with sun-boosted Sacred Fire or burn, such as a Lugia backed up by cleric Blissey or a physically defensive Ho-Oh of one's own.


[SET]
name: Monoattacker Calm Mind (yes it is monoattack but i think this describes it better)
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
evs: 240 HP / 172 Def / 96 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

The purpose of this set is to act as a win condition This set acts as a wincon that can beat Blissey with Recover, Refresh, and Calm Mind. The given HP and Defense EVs complement Latias's extraordinary Special Defense and help it take attacks from weaker physical attackers such as uninvested Ho-Oh and take Choice Band Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full. The Speed investment is important to beat neutral base 90s, namely Kyogre and Groudon. Calm Mind is the focus of this set, allowing Calm Mind allows Latias to overwhelm its defensive answers and clean a weakened team; Dragon Claw is a powerful STAB attack alongside it with few sturdy resists. resistant foes. Refresh cleanses Toxics from Blissey and paralyses paralysis from Groudon's and Kyogre's Thunder Wave, (AC) and possibly Snorlax's Body Slam. Another option is using Reflect over Refresh, making this Latias much more effective at checking and setting up on physical attackers, at the expense of the ability to remove status. attackers. The given HP and Defense EVs complement Latias's extraordinary Special Defense, especially with Calm Mind, and help it take attacks from weaker physical attackers such as uninvested Ho-Oh. They also let Latias take Choice Band Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full health. The Speed investment is important to beat neutral base 90s, namely Kyogre and Groudon.

252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe with a Timid nature and lets Latias outspeed Modest Latios at the cost of being weaker to physical attackers. It is also possible to use a spread of 172 HP / 240 Def / 96 Spe, retaining the Bold nature, to maintain the ability to still outspeed most Groudon and Kyogre while tanking Groudon's +2 Hidden Power Ghost, allowing it to act as a backup check to SubSalac Groudon; this will cut into Latias's special bulk noticeably, however.

Team Options
========

This set is somewhat self-sufficient, being able to beat most of its Latias's (I imagine latias's general defensive answers is what you mean? if you meant cm latias specifically, they arent really cm latias answers if cm latias is able to beat them; therefore, please tinker in that case.) defensive counters, answers, namely Blissey, Ho-Oh with less Attack investment, and some Snorlax lacking Curse and Shadow Ball. Although Latias can take a hit from Deoxys-A, it is prone to chip damage and cannot afford to spam Recover. Therefore, checks to offensive threats (i assume forretress isn't an offensive threat? assuming so, pls change smth somewhere here) like Metagross and Forretress are necessary. Pokemon like Groudon and Kyogre can check Steel-types, (AC) which can use Latias as fodder, like Spikes Forretress, Calm Mind Jirachi, and Metagross. Furthermore, as this set is less effective at taking on opposing Groudon and Kyogre, other answers to those are important, such as a Lugia + Blissey core.



[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options (changed section from bullets to paragraphs)
=============
Running Thunderbolt over Thunder on sun-based teams may seem appealing, but the loss of damage output against Ho-Oh and Kyogre is significant, (AC) and will generally cause generally causing Latias to lose to the latter while not meaningfully improving its matchup against the latter matchup while not meaningfully improving the former, and thus Thunder is always recommended. Roar is an interesting option (RC) with a couple of purposes. On the Monoattacker Calm Mind set, it can be used to set up Calm Mind against an opposing Calm Mind user that would otherwise beat it and Roar its foe out phaze the foe afterwards, gaining a significant advantage. On the BoltBeam set, it can be used as insurance against Calm Mind users that can set up to take on Latias. On both sets, Roar is also general insurance against setup Pokemon that can threaten the bulkier teams on which Latias naturally fits. Dropping a move for Roar is difficult, however; the most plausible option is Refresh, which will leave Latias much weaker against status from Groudon, Kyogre, and Blissey. Safeguard is an option over Refresh, but it's unable to prevent Latias from taking status while switching in, which is a significant downside and broadly makes Safeguard broadly makes it a much less desirable option.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Special Walls**: Blissey's incredible special bulk can generally take on Latias indefinitely. However, Latias sets with Calm Mind, Recover, and Refresh together the Calm Mind set can defeat most Blissey, although there are specialized Blissey sets that can beat this Latias set win with Snatch, Psych Up, or Calm Mind; and Calm Mind. Even standard Blissey can force Latias to use Recover or Refresh, allowing an offensive answer such as Deoxys-A to switch in. Snorlax has enough special bulk to take Latias' attacks and can can take Latias's attacks and hit hard back with Shadow Ball or Body Slam, threaten a Body Slam paralysis, or even set up Curse on Latias. Deoxys-D can switch in and threaten to Knock Off Latias' Soul Dew remove Soul Dew with Knock Off or set up Spikes, but it can be overpowered by a Spikes. +6 Latias can overpower it even lacking Soul Dew, although a faster Deoxys-D with Taunt can prevent it from boosting. Ho-Oh's massive Special Defense and Recover allow it to take most of Latias's attacks comfortably and hit back hard with Shadow Ball; however, offensive Ho-Oh will have to be wary of fears (or eg "dislikes" etc) Thunder in rain, and if defensive Ho-Oh may not be able to do sufficient damage to prevent a physically defensive Latias from setting up. Jirachi can usually beat Latias thanks to its bulk and resistances to Ice and Dragon. Jirachi can paralyze Latias with Body Slam, Thunder, or Thunder Wave, hit it hard with Shadow Ball, or set up on it with Calm Mind.

**Offensive Checks**: Deoxys-A can heavily damage Latias, but it will be OHKOed by any of Latias's attacks and cannot guarantee an OHKO on even (I imagine?) non-physically defensive Latias without a Choice Band. Metagross also has notable offensive power, switching can switch into Dragon Claw or Ice Beam and threatening to hit Latias hard or Explode on it. use Explosion. Heracross can also usually check Latias, surviving even a +1 Dragon Claw and threatening to KO it back with Megahorn given minimal chip damage.

**Setup Sweepers**: Calm Mind Kyogre will usually beat Calm Mind Latias one-on-one, and even Thunder Latias will be hard-pressed, (AC) as it cannot 2HKO Kyogre if Latias switches in as Kyogre uses Calm Mind. Groudon can generate a free turn by forcing Latias to use Refresh as it switches into Thunder Wave miltiple multiple times, eventually resulting in a full paralysis, using the opportunity to set up a Swords Dance and then usually OHKO Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost.

**Niche Checks**: There also exist less common checks to Latias: Umbreon can take a couple attacks from Latias, trap it with Mean Look, and pivot with Baton Pass to a counter; Regice can take multiple hits with its massive Special Defense stat and retaliate with Explosion or STAB Ice Beam; Registeel has incredible special bulk and a fantastic typing, using Latias to set up with Curse or remove Latias removing it with Explosion; Steelix can switch into Dragon Claw and Thunder and can to hit Latias hard; and Shedinja takes no damage whatsoever from any of Latias's attacks barring the obscure Hidden Power Fire and retaliates with STAB Shadow Ball. None of these Pokemon are generally (I imagine?) recommended, however.


[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Ajencis, 479200]]
- Quality checked by: [[SuperEpicAmpharos, 306959], [Inspirited, 127823]]
- Grammar checked by: [[Finland, 517429], [, ]]
fairandbalanced.gif
1/2
 
I am new to looking into Ubers this Gen and have to ask a potentially dumb question. Why are we running Calm Mind with only a physical attacking move? Do the bonuses stack in a way I'm unaware of or is the SpD boost that good?
 

Adeleine

after committing a dangerous crime
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I am new to looking into Ubers this Gen and have to ask a potentially dumb question. Why are we running Calm Mind with only a physical attacking move? Do the bonuses stack in a way I'm unaware of or is the SpD boost that good?
in gen 3, all dragon-type moves (including dragon claw) are special, which is why
 

UT

Roaring 20s, tossing pennies in the pool
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Team Rateris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Appeals + C&C Lead
add remove conjecture
[OVERVIEW]

With Soul Dew, Latias is a versatile Pokemon offensively and defensively. Its typing, Levitate, and good Speed let it check Kyogre and Groudon, the strongest attackers in the tier, while avoiding Spikes damage. Latias can also answer many special attackers thanks to Soul Dew's Special Defense boost. Unfortunately for Latias, its typing leaves it weak to common Ice- and Ghost-type attacks. It also dislikes status, especially paralysis, even when using on sets with Refresh. Finally, Latias can suffer in comparison to is often outclassed by Latios, which boasts a higher Special Attack stat to immediately pressure foes more. Nevertheless, Latias is a better Calm Mind sweeper and a more consistent check to aforementioned threats, as its bulk gives it more resilience to a critical hit or full paralysis turn. Generally, Latias is only worth a teamslot over Latios on bulky teams that need its long-term efficacy or a wincon.


[SET]
name: BoltBeam
move 1: Thunder
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 116 SpA / 140 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

This set primarily acts as a check to powerful Pokemon such as Groudon, Kyogre, and Latios. Refresh helps Latias consistently check threats, but Latias should still avoid status, as a full paralysis will severely hinder it. Recover lets Latias take multiple hits from super effective coverage moves, mainly Kyogre's Ice Beam and Groudon's Hidden Power Ghost. Thunder and Ice Beam hit Kyogre, Groudon, and Latios super effectively and almost the entire remainder of the tier for at least neutral damage. 140 Speed EVs awith with a Timid nature let Latias outspeed Modest Latios and any unboosted Groudon or Kyogre. 252 HP leverages its advantage in bulk over Latios.

Dragon Claw is an option over Ice Beam, trading power against Groudon for extra damage against Latios; this is best for teams that already have significant Groudon countermeasures. It is also possible to use Calm Mind over Refresh for Latias to double as a wincon, but this will hamper its matchup against Thunder Wave variants of Groudon and Kyogre, and Latias will still lose to Blissey. Dropping Refresh generally requires a Blissey on one's team to heal status and counter Thunder Wave Kyogre. Furthermore, if opting for Dragon Claw over Ice Beam, one can switch Latias's Special Attack and HP investments to use it as a lead. With this spread, Latias can 2HKO Mewtwo and has enough bulk to take two Ice Beams from Mewtwo, forcing it to use Self-Destruct. However, Calm Mind variants of Mewtwo can use Latias as setup fodder. Finally, a spread of 192 HP / 176 SpA / 140 Spe with a Timid nature retains the ability to survive Spell Tag Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full health and hits foes harder, but this spread particularly is often outclassed by Latios, which can survive the same hit with more offensive presence.

This set's biggest flaw is that it suffers in comparison to Latios. Latios's significantly higher offensive presence pressures Groudon and Kyogre much more effectively, most notably securing the 2HKO on Kyogre even when switching in on its Calm Mind. As such, careful thought should be given if Latias's bulk is needed over Latios's power.

Team Options
========

Although a good check to Groudon and Kyogre, Latias should not be the sole check to either threat. If SubSalac Groudon can find a turn to set up, including from full paralysis, it can OHKO Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost. Therefore, another check to Groudon such as Lugia or Ho-Oh is necessary. Similarly, it is generally wise to have a backup check to opposing Kyogre, such as a Blissey or your own Kyogre with Thunder.

Pokemon that commonly switch into Latias include Snorlax, Blissey, and Ho-Oh. The former two can generally be handled with a Steel-type that can set up Spikes, such as Skarmory or Forretress, or hit hard physically, such as Metagross. Ho-Oh is checked by physical walls that are not overly concerned with sun-boosted Sacred Fire or burn, such as a Lugia backed up by cleric Blissey or a physically defensive Ho-Oh of one's own.


[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Dragon Claw
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Recover
move 4: Refresh
item: Soul Dew
ability: Levitate
nature: Bold
evs: 240 HP / 172 Def / 96 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Set Description
=========

The set acts as a win condition wincon that can beat Blissey with Recover, Refresh, and Calm Mind. Calm Mind allows Latias to overwhelm its defensive answers and clean a weakened team; Dragon Claw is a powerful STAB attack alongside it with few sturdy resistant foes. Refresh cleanses Toxic from Blissey and paralysis from Groudon's and Kyogre's Thunder Wave, and possibly Snorlax's Body Slam. Another option is using Reflect over Refresh, making this Latias much more effective at checking and setting up on physical attackers. The given HP and Defense EVs complement Latias's extraordinary Special Defense, especially with Calm Mind, and help it take attacks from weaker physical attackers such as uninvested Ho-Oh. They also let Latias take Choice Band Deoxys-A's Shadow Ball from full health. The Speed investment is important to beat neutral base 90s, namely Kyogre and Groudon.

252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe with a Timid nature lets Latias outspeed Modest Latios at the cost of being weaker to physical attackers. It is also possible to use a spread of 172 HP / 240 Def / 96 Spe, retaining the Bold nature, to still outspeed most Groudon and Kyogre while tanking Groudon's +2 Hidden Power Ghost, allowing it to act as a backup check to SubSalac Groudon; this will cut into Latias's special bulk noticeably, however.

Team Options
========

This set is somewhat self-sufficient, being able to beat most of Latias's defensive answers, namely Blissey, Ho-Oh with less without significant Attack investment, and some Snorlax lacking Curse and Shadow Ball. Although Latias can take a hit from Deoxys-A, it is prone to chip damage and cannot afford to spam Recover. Therefore, checks to these threats, often a Steel-type like Metagross or Forretress, (comma) are necessary. Pokemon like Groudon and Kyogre can check Steel-types which that can use Latias as fodder, like Spikes Forretress, Calm Mind Jirachi, and Metagross. Furthermore, as this set is less effective at taking on opposing Groudon and Kyogre, other answers to those are important, such as a Lugia + Blissey core.



[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Running Thunderbolt over Thunder on sun-based teams may seem appealing, but the loss of damage output against Ho-Oh and Kyogre is significant, generally causing Latias to lose the latter matchup while not meaningfully improving the former, and thus Thunder is always recommended. Roar is an interesting option with a couple of purposes. On the Calm Mind set, it can be used to set up against an opposing Calm Mind user that would otherwise beat it and phaze the foe afterwards, gaining a significant advantage. On the BoltBeam set, it can be used as insurance against Calm Mind users that can set up to take on Latias. On both sets, Roar is also general insurance against setup Pokemon that can threaten the bulkier teams on which Latias naturally fits. Dropping a move for Roar is difficult, however; the most plausible option is Refresh, which will leave Latias much weaker against status from Groudon, Kyogre, and Blissey. Safeguard is an option over Refresh, but it's unable to prevent Latias from taking status while switching in, which broadly makes it a much less desirable option.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Special Walls**: Blissey's incredible special bulk can generally take on Latias indefinitely. However, the Calm Mind set can defeat most Blissey, although there are specialized Blissey sets that can beat this Latias set with Snatch, Psych Up, or Calm Mind. Even standard Blissey can force Latias to use Recover or Refresh, allowing an offensive answer such as Deoxys-A to switch in. Snorlax can take Latias' Latias's attacks and hit hard back with Shadow Ball or Body Slam, threaten a Body Slam paralysis, or even set up Curse. Deoxys-D can switch in and threaten to remove Soul Dew with Knock Off or set up Spikes. +6 Latias can overpower it even lacking Soul Dew, although a faster Deoxys-D with Taunt can prevent it from boosting. Ho-Oh's massive Special Defense and Recover allow it to take most of Latias's attacks comfortably and hit back hard with Shadow Ball; however, offensive Ho-Oh fears Thunder in rain, and defensive Ho-Oh may not be able to do sufficient damage to prevent a physically defensive Latias from setting up. Jirachi can usually beat Latias thanks to its bulk and resistances to Ice and Dragon. Jirachi can paralyze Latias with Body Slam, Thunder, or Thunder Wave, hit it hard with Shadow Ball, or set up on it with Calm Mind.

**Offensive Checks**: Deoxys-A can heavily damage Latias, but it will be OHKOed by any of Latias's attacks and cannot guarantee an OHKO on even non-physically defensive Latias without a Choice Band. Metagross can switch into Dragon Claw or Ice Beam and threaten to hit Latias hard or use Explosion. Heracross can also usually check Latias, surviving even a +1 Dragon Claw and threatening to KO it back with Megahorn given minimal chip damage.

**Setup Sweepers**: Calm Mind Kyogre will usually beat Calm Mind Latias one-on-one, and even Thunder Latias will be hard-pressed as it cannot 2HKO Kyogre if Latias switches in as Kyogre uses Calm Mind. Groudon can generate a free turn by forcing Latias to use Refresh as it switches into Thunder Wave multiple times, eventually resulting in a full paralysis, using the opportunity to set up a Swords Dance and then usually OHKO Latias with +2 Hidden Power Ghost.

**Niche Checks**: Umbreon can take a couple attacks from Latias, trap it with Mean Look, and pivot with Baton Pass to a counter; Regice can take multiple hits with its massive Special Defense stat and retaliate with Explosion or STAB Ice Beam; Registeel has incredible special bulk and a fantastic typing, using Latias to set up with Curse or removing it with Explosion; Steelix can switch into Dragon Claw and Thunder to hit Latias hard; and Shedinja takes no damage whatsoever from any of Latias's attacks barring the obscure Hidden Power Fire and retaliates with STAB Shadow Ball. None of these Pokemon are generally recommended, however.


[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Ajencis, 479200]]
- Quality checked by: [[SuperEpicAmpharos, 306959], [Inspirited, 127823]]
- Grammar checked by: [[Finland, 517429], [UT, 523866]]

GP 2/2! Lasen you're welcome

 

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