Innovative/Underrated sets in VGC

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chuckaboomboom

I believe I can HM02
I would like to write an article about Innovative/Underrated sets in VGC.

This article is inspired by a previous article from "The Smog". The aforementioned article talked about gimmicks and horrible strategies. I would like to write about the strategies and sets on the other end of the spectrum. These are strategies that are innovative and underrated. Please note that not all of the sets listed are the same level of viability. However, they are all interesting and effective in their own right, and all of them can work nicely.

1. Innovative/Underrated sets: The Alumni
The sets in this section are the alumni of innovative/underrated sets. At one point in time, they were odd ideas and unorthodox strategies, but they have proven themselves to be effective, sometimes superb schemes. They have all been tested extensively, and have shown incredible success.

Khan-Artist
Mega Kangaskan + Smeragle = Fake out + Dark Void = A river of tears
A very potent strategy, but one that is easily seen from team preview and relatively easily countered. This strategy has demonstrated its potential and can be very effective. If it's played properly with good team support, the player using Kang-Artist can gain a vast amount of momentum.

Terra-Cota
This is the general term for a rather terrifying strategy. It involves a Pokemon with beat-up targeting a Pokemon justified, effectively giving the Pokemon with justified a +4 boost. This strategy is very susceptible to redirection and fake out, but with proper support from your team, this can be a horrifying strategy to play against. It is a very viable stratagem that sees its fair share of usage.

Bulky Thundurus-I
This is a very common set now, but once upon a time, it was a new idea, and it caught people off guard when Thundurus lived unexpected attacks. It allowed Thundurus-I to become more versatile, while not compromising much on offense. This just shows gimmicks do not need to be overly complex. Something elegant like an unique EV spread or a different item is all it takes.

Protect on choiced Pokemon
This is actually a very practical idea. Using protect on a choiced Pokemon is a perfect bluff to trick your opponent into thinking that your Pokemon is not choiced. It's being used to great success by skilled battlers. This has been used by "Babbytron", a VGC junior world champion, to great success.

Overheat on Talonflame
By investing some EV's into special attack and using overheat, a Talonflame can OHKO Mega-Mawile. It also allows Talonflame to neglect recoil and intimidate.
68 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Mega Mawile: 159-190 (101.2 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This was a new idea in VGC 2014, and it's success and effectiveness has been such that it is now rather common. Pokemon Global Link shows that 9.1% of Talonflames run Overheat in their moveset.


2. Innovative/Underrated sets: Outside of the Spotlights
The following sets are just waiting to shine. They have seen their fair share of usage and success, but are still in the progress of proving themselves.

Charizard X: Almost all Charizards are Charizard Ys. According to Pokemon Global Link's Battle Spot Doubles statistics, 94.5% of Charizards hold the Y mega stone, whereas 4.9% Charizards hold the X mega stone. A Charizard X provides a huge surprise factor here, and an untimely dragon dance or an unexpected KO can be very effective against unprepared opponents.

Perish-Trap
While it's not quite a gimmick, it's definitely on the edge. This is a fun and powerful innovation.
Perfect support + Perish Song + Shadow Tag = A river of teams

Trick Room Gengar
Gengars are speedy, not a trait that is seen on trick room teams. However, some players have found a innovative niche for Gengar. A Gengar with a focus sash and trick room on a team with a Sand Stream user or Snow Warning user allows the following things to happen:
  • Suprise (a gengar is fast, and almost certainly will not use Trick Room)
  • It gives the player two options with his team. He can choose between a Trick Room mode and a regular mode.
  • If the player chooses to go with the Trick Room Mode, he does the following. Send out the Gengar with the Sand Stream user or Snow Warning user. Click trick room. Hopefully, Gengar receives a hard hit and is knocked to its focus sash. It can survive with the sash, set up trick room, and die to the weather, thus letting a slow and hard-hitting trick room Pokemon to come in. If Gengar is still alive after setting up trick room, allow the Gengar to be knocked out in the following turns.
  • The player can also use Gengar regularly for speedy offense
3. Innovative/Underrated sets: The Next Generation
The following Pokemon are all relatively new creations. They have been tried out, but are still under huge scrutiny. They are very underrated and should see an increase in popularity.
Mega Banette
Wolde Glicke recently used this uncommon Pokemon with an uncommon set to win the Florida Pokemon VGC 2015 Regionals. It supported his team perfectly. It had a moveset of Will-O-Wisp/Protect/Disable/Pain Split. This allowed to provide Prankster support and disruption. This is another example of not being afraid to experiment. Play around with your team, see what works, and see what doesn't work. VGC is a tier where there's a lot of room for innovation.
Note: Mega Banette is a fairly niche Pokemon, though it is one that can be fitted on to teams. It has superb offensive stats and a deep support move-pool to abuse with Prankster. However, one of its biggest flaws is that the order of speeds is determined prior to Mega Evolving. This means that Mega Banette will not have the benefits of Prankster on the turn that it Mega Evolves.

Support Clefairy
For those of you that are unfamiliar with Clefairy, it has access to the elusive ability Friend Guard. Friend Guard is a great means of providing passive support, as it reduces the damage done to allies by 25%. When equipped with an eviolite, it's bulk is surprising. It's mostly used for redirection, as it has access with follow me. In addition, Clefairy has access to a deep support movepool that includes but is not limited to: icy wind, moonlight, heal pulse, thunder wave, helping hand, and encore.

Substitute Mega Metagross
According to Battle Spot Doubles' statistics, substitute is not one of the top ten most commonly used moves by Metagross. However, a substitute works nicely with Mega Metagross's natural bulk and can be hard to get rid of. A well timed subsitute can shift the battle in your favor and create momentum. This set is very versatile and can be easily fitted into most Mega Metagross teams. It should see an increase in usage in due course.

Moonlight + Sun Cresselia
When used in the sun, moonlight heals 2/3 of a Pokemon's total HP. When that is used in tandem with Cresselia's fantastic bulk, a world of pain is created for your opponent. While this set is not overly powerful or dominant, it is still very formidable and can be difficult to deal with.
 
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Bummer

Jamming to the beat
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Parchirisu
A unbelievably bulky Pokemon that can redirect with Follow Me. It also has a useful move-pool that includes nuzzle and super fang.
While we were all amazed by Pachirisu's performance, its bulk really isn't all that unbelievable though. 60/70/90 defenses is something that even sweepers can have, while other Follow Me users like Togekiss, Jirachi and Clefable have all better bulk and an offensive presence to go with it.

Overheat on Talonflame: By investing some EV's into special attack and using overheat, a Talonflame can OHKO Mega-Mawile. It also allows Talonflame to neglect recoil and intimidate.
252 SpA Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Mega Mawile: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Mawile's spread is the bulky set from the Damage Calculator and what I assume is the standard spread, and as you can see, even with full Sp Atk investment it's still not a guaranteed KO. So unless you completely forego investing in speed, that Talonflame is going to hit like a wet blanket on the physical side, or in general be really frail.

I'm gonna let out Doubles QC members have the final say about this topic though, so I'm gonna tag Stratos and Audiosurfer . I'm also gonna need to mention while underrated sets can exist in any tier or metagame, Doubles in particular have a larger problem with users experimenting with their own gimmicks due to how Doubles open up a slew of other opportunities. So with that in mind, if you're gonna encourage that community to use gimmicks, well, you'd have to tread very carefully in order to not send the wrong message. So while we do welcome new users, you sure picked a sensitive subject :V

Also, it'd also be nice to link some other material you've written, just to get a taste of your experience as a writer.
 

chuckaboomboom

I believe I can HM02
252 SpA Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Mega Mawile: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Mawile's spread is the bulky set from the Damage Calculator and what I assume is the standard spread, and as you can see, even with full Sp Atk investment it's still not a guaranteed KO.

I'm also gonna need to mention while underrated sets can exist in any tier or metagame, Doubles in particular have a larger problem with users experimenting with their own gimmicks due to how Doubles open up a slew of other opportunities.

Also, it'd also be nice to link some other material you've written, just to get a taste of your experience as a writer.
Thanks for your suggestions!

I may have left the wrong impression. I wasn't trying to encourage the community to use gimmicks. I was trying to categorize them, analyze them, and provide examples of creativity by certain players. It was meant to spark creativity and provide guidelines.

Also, I can definitely link some materials that I have written, but none of them are official articles written for Pokemon websites. Perhaps I could upload my grade 11 English paper? On second thought, I doubt that the editors want to read about my analysis of Macbeth...

Your Talonflame calculations against Mega Mawile should have included a life orb. It allows Talonflame to hit hard on both sides of the attacking spctrum. 68 SpA with life orb is what Se Jun Park used to win the world championships.
68 SpA Life Orb Talonflame Overheat vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Mega Mawile: 159-190 (101.2 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
you seem to lack the ability to tell the difference between gimmick and innovation. It doesn't seem like you're misunderstanding what's good or not but you really lack the ability to phrase it. LO Overheat talon isn't a gimmick, it's just a smart choice, between losing recoil, hitting harder at -1 atk, and being able to attack into King's Shields. Same deals with Pachirisu and Banette (though I'm iffy on Pachi being a-tier and definitely dont think Perish Trap is). an article on innovating smartly in VGC or something could definitely work
 

chuckaboomboom

I believe I can HM02
you seem to lack the ability to tell the difference between gimmick and innovation. It doesn't seem like you're misunderstanding what's good or not but you really lack the ability to phrase it. LO Overheat talon isn't a gimmick, it's just a smart choice,
I quote from a previously published Smogon article, "a gimmick is any set that uses sub-optimal moves or items to gain a surprise advantage over opposing teams or standard counters." This definition is widely accepted by the Pokemon community.

For LO overheat talonflame, overheat is one of those "sub-optimal moves". It certainly allowed teams to gain a "surprise advantage over opposing teams.

Is a wonderfully constructed, effective, and useful gimmick not an innovation? A A innovation is a new method, idea, product, etc. A F-rank gimmick as I've defined it are not innovative, but all the examples that I've listed "uses sub-optimal moves or items to gain a surprise advantage over opposing teams or standard counters." Certainly, some of these examples are very smart and innovative.

By separating these gimmicks in to ranks, I feel that I have clearly drawn the line between pure gimmicks, and smart innovations.

EDIT: If you don't like some of my rankings, I would be open to changing them.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
the thing is something is, by definition, not a gimmick if it's still better once your opponent knows you're carrying it. In the case of overheat talon, even after it became the standard fire STAB on talon, it was still better than flare blitz. By lumping things like overheat talon and other INNOVATIONS in with skill swap slaking and other GIMMICKS, you are blurring the line between good and bad.
 

chuckaboomboom

I believe I can HM02
the thing is something is, by definition, not a gimmick if it's still better once your opponent knows you're carrying it. In the case of overheat talon, even after it became the standard fire STAB on talon, it was still better than flare blitz. By lumping things like overheat talon and other INNOVATIONS in with skill swap slaking and other GIMMICKS, you are blurring the line between good and bad.
How am I lumping overheat talonflame with skill swap slaking? I deliberately classed these sets and made the differences clear. I criticized skill swap slaking and ranked it F. On the other hand, I stated that overheat talonflame was a great idea and is now receiving usage. It fell under the A section. Amazing Sets and Gimmicks that have shown success in the VGC community (Grade: A) This is an excerpt from the article plan:
"Like the invention of the lightbulb, these are great ideas. They've been tested extensively, and have shown incredible success, so much so that some of them have become commonplace."
 
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Bummer

Jamming to the beat
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I do not believe that I am "blurring the line between good and bad". I made the line distinct and clear.
He's not critisizing you for knowing the line between good and bad, but he does critisize you for blending gimmicks with valid stratgies. Due to the success of Overheat Talonflame, the inclusion of that move is no longer suboptimal and serves a specific purpose, and can therefore no longer be seen as a true gimmick and instead a valid set. Granted, I was the one who doubted it in this thread, but I'm also not a DOubles player, which is why we have people like Stratos to give a second opinion.

Either way, like I said earlier, gimmicks are a complicated suspect, since we prefer to not to highlight bad sets unless it's for entertainment purposes (some exceptions occur). So this article might succeed better as, like Stratos said, something along the lines of "Innovative/Underrated sets in VGC and Doubles", particularly so as I don't see no benefit to grading them as there will always be some manner of subjective preferences that makes that task harder between the author and the readers. So if you'd like, clean up the list above so that only the sets you deem good remain (and maybe add some more if you feel they're too few), and I'd be willing to greenlight this to continue in our workshop. If not, you're free to take this topic elsewhere.
 

chuckaboomboom

I believe I can HM02
He's not critisizing you for knowing the line between good and bad, but he does critisize you for blending gimmicks with valid stratgies. Due to the success of Overheat Talonflame, the inclusion of that move is no longer suboptimal and serves a specific purpose, and can therefore no longer be seen as a true gimmick and instead a valid set. Granted, I was the one who doubted it in this thread, but I'm also not a DOubles player, which is why we have people like Stratos to give a second opinion.

Either way, like I said earlier, gimmicks are a complicated suspect, since we prefer to not to highlight bad sets unless it's for entertainment purposes (some exceptions occur). So this article might succeed better as, like Stratos said, something along the lines of "Innovative/Underrated sets in VGC and Doubles", particularly so as I don't see no benefit to grading them as there will always be some manner of subjective preferences that makes that task harder between the author and the readers. So if you'd like, clean up the list above so that only the sets you deem good remain (and maybe add some more if you feel they're too few), and I'd be willing to greenlight this to continue in our workshop. If not, you're free to take this topic elsewhere.
Thank you so much for your feedback! I was having a hard time understanding the editors, but this post really clears it up.

I can definitely change the topic's idea into "Innovative/Underrated sets in VGC and Doubles". In fact, that's a much better idea, now that I think about it. I'll take the advice of both Stratos and yourself into consideration.

I'll clean up the list above and probably rewrite some sections.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
it's called khan-artist and i think you mean thundurus-i but otherwise this looks pretty ok. not all of the sets you listed are the same level of viability but they all work, just make sure you don't make moonlight cress or tr gar sound as all-around powerful as substitute megagross and bulky thund-i

i also think you should just stick to vgc tho cuz its obvious thats your main metagame, no need to shoehorn in smogon doubles things
 

chuckaboomboom

I believe I can HM02
it's called khan-artist and i think you mean thundurus-i but otherwise this looks pretty ok. not all of the sets you listed are the same level of viability but they all work, just make sure you don't make moonlight cress or tr gar sound as all-around powerful as substitute megagross and bulky thund-i

i also think you should just stick to vgc tho cuz its obvious thats your main metagame, no need to shoehorn in smogon doubles things[/quote
K thanks! I've made the edits in italics and changed the focus to VGC.
 
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Audiosurfer

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not really sure if Pachirisu is worth mentioning since by definition an innovation needs to now be popular after once being original. I'm sure some people played it after it had success but I don't really think it's seen enough use and become accepted enough to be considered an innovation (not a VGC expert but I'm pretty doubtful that people are running Pachirisu in tours en masse all of a sudden, correct me if I'm wrong though).

in general I'd say remove the really niche examples where you're basically describing a pokemon/set that worked for one team in one moment but not something that can work for multiple teams or even multiple battlers since that's not really an innovation.

also: "This is another example of not being afraid to experiment. Play around with your team, see what works, and see what doesn't work. Doubles is a tier where there's a lot of room for innovation." <--- Mentions Doubles after giving a VGC example. Be sure to look out for things like this.
 

chuckaboomboom

I believe I can HM02
not really sure if Pachirisu is worth mentioning since by definition an innovation needs to now be popular after once being original. I'm sure some people played it after it had success but I don't really think it's seen enough use and become accepted enough to be considered an innovation (not a VGC expert but I'm pretty doubtful that people are running Pachirisu in tours en masse all of a sudden, correct me if I'm wrong though).

in general I'd say remove the really niche examples where you're basically describing a pokemon/set that worked for one team in one moment but not something that can work for multiple teams or even multiple battlers since that's not really an innovation.

also: "This is another example of not being afraid to experiment. Play around with your team, see what works, and see what doesn't work. Doubles is a tier where there's a lot of room for innovation." <--- Mentions Doubles after giving a VGC example. Be sure to look out for things like this.
K thanks! I've made the edits.
 

Audiosurfer

I'd rather be sleeping
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
^this

I might point out some more examples once you do this but it looks like a good amount of these "innovations" are fairly old strategies. I think your article would be of more use if you only focused on things that are actually innovative in the current VGC meta as opposed to things that may have been new many metas ago but are now pretty standard.
 

chuckaboomboom

I believe I can HM02
^this

I might point out some more examples once you do this but it looks like a good amount of these "innovations" are fairly old strategies. I think your article would be of more use if you only focused on things that are actually innovative in the current VGC meta as opposed to things that may have been new many metas ago but are now pretty standard.
Ok thanks! I actually have a lot more examples of innovations in the current VGC meta. However, I would definitely appreciate it if you pointed out some examples of underrated sets as well.

BTW, how do I access the thread in the article workshop?
 
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