In-game tier list policy discussion thread

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I was aware of growl, but didn't it only lower your level to a maximum/minimum of 1? You can "reverse" back all the way to level 100?
Maybe he's talking about the Medium Slow underflow glitch. Basically, level 1 Med Slow Pokemon have -54 experience and if you earn less than 54 exp points after KOing something, the game will consider it level 245 but underflow it to level 100.

e: though Mew isn't in Med Slow, but this a good example of another consequence of the glitch
e2: nvm, it IS in Med Slow, I missed the "Medium" part
 
What's the difference between allowing glitches only for Mew and allowing trading only for Trade Evos? In both cases it's the only way to get the respective Pokémon
 

Merritt

no comment
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host
Head TD
What's the difference between allowing glitches only for Mew and allowing trading only for Trade Evos? In both cases it's the only way to get the respective Pokémon
I'd have to ask why only allow Mew when Missingno is an equally "valid" normally unobtainable Pokemon and the setup to obtain one as early as Mew is nearly identical (do Mew glitch vs a Special stat of 31 or 32 instead of 21).

This is also a poor argument because event Pokemon are not generally tiered even when there are glitches that can be used to obtain them (most notably in DP with the Void Glitch). You could argue that the glitch executions are more unintuitive there, but the Mew glitch is certainly not something most players are liable to stumble into either.

And, of course, trading Pokemon other than trade evos and immediately trading them back doesn't actually do anything notable so I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be allowed. It's just pointless.
 
For a different currently relevant question, out-of-bounds in BDSP allows a lot of early access to various areas. This will allow catching ridiculously high leveled pokes early, and early E4, but also early access to Shaymin. Are we going to allow it?
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
For a different currently relevant question, out-of-bounds in BDSP allows a lot of early access to various areas. This will allow catching ridiculously high leveled pokes early, and early E4, but also early access to Shaymin. Are we going to allow it?
That counts as major exploiting which is not allowed according to in-game playthrough rules if I recall correctly.

Especially since you catch ridiculously high leveled Pokémon very early which breaks the early game into pieces. The forums are about standard in-game playthrough, not speedrunning.
 
So fun fact: it’s possible to get the National Pokédex as soon as Gym 2 in BDSP.


This is completely intentional and actually dramatically increases the amount of Pokémon available to the player prior to the postgame while still locking off a lot of other things:


While interesting and probably something that would enable for some interesting unconventional playthroughs of this game once Pokémon Home comes out which wouldn’t technically require any kind of trading, I’m going to assume that the in-game tier list is going to treat anything that requires the National Pokédex as inaccessible to most in an in-game story playthrough, yes?
 
Last edited:
Apologies for taking a big step back here, but when my friends and I were young, I have memories mainly of smashing through the games with 1 overleveled Pokemon. It wasn't until I later got into team building (through Stadium/simulators) that I put any thought into constructing a team during the game, but even so it was more as a challenge than as anything intended to be efficient.

Maybe the general tier lists based on 3-5 Pokemon teams are representative of the Smogon audience, however until the experience rate changed to be relative to level in Gen 5 (new formula), the most casual gameplay to me was always a "smash-through" with one over-leveled dominant Pokemon (usually a starter).

I guess it just bugs me that the language in the GSC tier list makes this below claim:
We are tiering Pokemon based on their performance in teams of 3 to 5 Pokemon because those teams are most common among casual players.

At best it's a true hypothesis, but I'd guess it's false in Gens 1-4, particularly 1-2 which I am most familiar with. The "main mon" strategy was always the simplest and most efficient, and I'd guess, most popular.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Apologies for taking a big step back here, but when my friends and I were young, I have memories mainly of smashing through the games with 1 overleveled Pokemon. It wasn't until I later got into team building (through Stadium/simulators) that I put any thought into constructing a team during the game, but even so it was more as a challenge than as anything intended to be efficient.

Maybe the general tier lists based on 3-5 Pokemon teams are representative of the Smogon audience, however until the experience rate changed to be relative to level in Gen 5 (new formula), the most casual gameplay to me was always a "smash-through" with one over-leveled dominant Pokemon (usually a starter).

I guess it just bugs me that the language in the GSC tier list makes this below claim:
We are tiering Pokemon based on their performance in teams of 3 to 5 Pokemon because those teams are most common among casual players.

At best it's a true hypothesis, but I'd guess it's false in Gens 1-4, particularly 1-2 which I am most familiar with. The "main mon" strategy was always the simplest and most efficient, and I'd guess, most popular.
the problem with assuming a solo run (like yours) is that this, just like some of the glitches mentioned earlier, eliminates the point of those lists. In such cases, the lists would pretty much be centralized around early-game stuff that are relatively good and can take off quickly. Getting later stuff (like say, post-Gym 3 Pokemon) would be relatively pointless, since their effectiveness wouldn't be as high as the stuff you get before that.

I agree with your statement that smashing through with one Pokemon is, by far, the most efficient way of playing the games. In fact, the article for the RBY list explicitly mentions that:

The list assumes a run with four Pokémon. However, it should be noted that a Pokémon performs best if it's used as the only active member in a team, as it can be given any contested TM with no problems and can massively outlevel opponents due to receiving all the Exp. Points other teammates would receive instead.
whilst the BW one mentions that running with a smaller team leads to better performance:

Most tests were done with five-member teams, although it is notably more optimal to run four or less, as they will gain more experience and easily outlevel opponents.
They mention those facts exactly to make it clear that the truly efficient way of completing the games is to use small teams. However, in order to maintain some semibalance of "sanity" and as to not eliminate their point or usefulness, the lists assume that the Pokemon is used at comparable levels to the opponents it's facing (where applicable; you can't exactly level-match HGSS/GSC Lance, so it's assumed that you are fighting him at a level disadvantage). If all you need is something to solo with, you can just grab a viable "early-game" Pokemon (the BW1 and RBY lists, for instance, label all locations as early-, mid-, late-, or end-game locations) and boost its rank by a tier or two for such a perspective.

Regardless, trying to determine whether it's more common to use solo teams or teams of five members is futile, since we don't have access to empirical data to support either side (and I, as a casual, have never soloed with anything, so I could theoritically use it as a counterpoint).
 
Ryota Mitarai if what you are describing does indeed describe the motivation for listing 3-5 Pokemon team performance, then I believe the description(s) should be amended to describe the actual rationale, rather than inventing fake data to use as the premise.

As you said below:
Regardless, trying to determine whether it's more common to use solo teams or teams of five members is futile, since we don't have access to empirical data to support either side (and I, as a casual, have never soloed with anything, so I could theoritically use it as a counterpoint).
I do wonder what the anecdotes of others are, and with enough we may be able to approach empirical hints.

For what it's worth, RBY can still be done pretty easily with "renewable" resources using the over-level strategy although it does complicate things a bit, and GSC is a ton easier than RBY (all you really need is buyable TMs, and maybe Return which is weekly).
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Ryota Mitarai if what you are describing does indeed describe the motivation for listing 3-5 Pokemon team performance, then I believe the description should be amended to describe the actual rationale, rather than inventing fake data to use as the premise.
Perhaps yes. I am not the OP of the thread, so I cannot do much regarding it, but if I were, I'd probably change it to "we run with 3-5 Pokemon to maintain level balance" or something. This seems more like an issue with conveying the motivation of the rule rather than the actual motivation, at least to me, since we generally discourage testing with full teams to prevent underleveling.
 
Perhaps yes. I am not the OP of the thread, so I cannot do much regarding it, but if I were, I'd probably change it to "we run with 3-5 Pokemon to maintain level balance" or something. This seems more like an issue with conveying the motivation of the rule rather than the actual motivation, at least to me, since we generally discourage testing with full teams to prevent underleveling.
Yeah I guess I'd say something like "we test on runs with 3-5 Pokemon because we believe this to balance between challenge, efficiency, and variety in a way that creates an optimal gameplay experience for casual players".

I actually find 1 Pokemon runs to be the most interesting just because they are effectively the solution to the basic efficiency problems one may ask. "Here is my goal in this game run. How do I achieve it?" I personally don't prefer complicating things just to make the game artificially hard. But hey, that's just me.
 
Exploits and glitches aside, how is the BDSP ingame tier list going to account for the Grand Underground? It seems comparable to the Wild Area in Sword/Shield, which, let me remind you, still does not have any ingame tier lists available.
 
Exploits and glitches aside, how is the BDSP ingame tier list going to account for the Grand Underground? It seems comparable to the Wild Area in Sword/Shield, which, let me remind you, still does not have any ingame tier lists available.
The Grand Underground has a lot more going for it:
1. It doesn't just barf up like 200 new pokemon instantly. The bulk of the pokemon you find are ones in the Sinnoh Dex and because of how THAT dex distribution works it winds up being pretty similar to what you found to begin with...
2. There are no weather factors. All that matters is the room.
3. While the original Wild Area only really gatekept on the water bike and level, this adds a few more roadblocks to stagger out pokemon.

The appeal of the underground is you get most (though not at all) the platinum additions available and you get alternate options for hunting other annoying Pokemon or get some early (depending on the Pokemon, where you are, etc)
 

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
If anything I'd more readily ask the question of what meaningfully separates it from catching stuff on routes
They always come with an egg move, a Murkrow with Brave Bird right before the second gym is a big deal, but you could spend a lot of time trying to find one with the right move. Also they come at a much higher level that what you find in routes.
 
They always come with an egg move, a Murkrow with Brave Bird right before the second gym is a big deal, but you could spend a lot of time trying to find one with the right move. Also they come at a much higher level that what you find in routes.
I mean with regards to availability. Whether they come jacked or not doesn't matter
 
I mean with regards to availability. Whether they come jacked or not doesn't matter
You can enter the first section of the Underground as soon as you get to Eterna City. In the first section, you gain access to 10 unique hideaways: Rocky Cave, Spacious Cave, Grassland Cave, Fountainspring Cave, Riverbank Cave, Volcanic Cave, Sandsear Cave, Still-Water Cavern, Big Bluff Cavern, Dazzling Cave.

Rocky Cave gets you early access to Skorupi, and additionally gets you access Lickitung, Rhyhorn, Gligar, Swablu, Absol, who you wouldn't be able to find otherwise.
Spacious Cave gets you access to Magnemite, Teddiursa, Houndoom, and the aforementioned Lickitung, Rhyhorn, Gligar, Swablu, and Absol.
Grassland Cave gets you early access to Roselia (for those who don't like happiness evos) and additionally gets you access to Scyther, Pinsir and the aforementioned Absol. Perhaps more notably than anything else, this hideaway also gives access to Combee and Cherubi without needing to mess with Honey Trees.
Fountainspring Cave gets you early access to Gastrodon (approximately 10 levels underleveled at its earliest availability) and additionally gets you access to Togepi, Ralts, and the aforementioned Swablu.
Riverbank Cave gets you early access to Croagunk, and Stunky, and additionally gets you access to the aforementioned Lickitung, Scyther and Pinsir.
Volcanic Cave gets you access to Magby as well as the aforementioned Houndoom and early Skorupi.
Sandsear Cave gets you access to the aforementioned Rhyhorn, Houndoom, Magby, and early Skorupi.
Still-Water Cavern gets you access to the aforementioned Lickitung, Scyther, Pinsir, and early Croagunk.
Big Bluff Cavern gets you access to the aforementioned Scyther, Pinsir, Gligar, Absol, and early Skorupi.
Dazzling Cave gets you early access to Ghastly (before Gardenia rather than after), and additionally access to Smoochum, Elekid, and Duskull as well as the aforementioned Togepi, Houndoom, and Ralts.

In total there are 24 unique pokemon that become available as soon as you hit Eterna City, a number of whom are immediately useful against Gardenia and Jupiter. 7 of those pokemon are available in the overworld, but only much later.

And that's just the Eterna City location. More pokemon become available later in the game, including some like Munchlax who can be very difficult to find otherwise. Not to mention the levels of all pokemon in the underground scale with your progress through the story, meaning you pick up certain mons after battles they might struggle with and have them immediately make themselves useful with very little babying (such as Rhyhorn, who struggles with Maylene and Wake but destroys Byron and Candice).
 
Last edited:
Okay I guess I should clarify further lol -- I'm not saying that when you get the Pokémon their effectiveness is no different from being caught on the route, or that it opens up no options (on the contrary it obviously opens up a TON of new options and has some broken shit), my comments were adding to the discussion of "in terms of availability, isn't this just like the Wild Area?" to which my response is essentially "it's far more comparable to routes than the wild area". Sorry for any confusion
 
We really have no hard proof whether the standard team size is 1, 3, 6, or any in between (or even 6+, if we count rotating teams). That said, a standard team size of 6 should be the ideal IMO, as it gives us a minimum performance we can safely rely on - much safer to underestimate mons than overestimate them, I say. Besides, 6-mon teams generally keep up with the ingame level curve, Exp. Share in Gen 6 and beyond aside.

One thing that bugs me is how much some matchups should count versus others or even if they should count differently at all. Whitney is unironically tougher than Will in Crystal, but does that really mean defeating Whitney is more important? On a related note, we need to do a better job of establishing the exact criteria for grading matchup outcomes. How much should Potion use or team support count for or against a Pokemon?
 
We really have no hard proof whether the standard team size is 1, 3, 6, or any in between (or even 6+, if we count rotating teams). That said, a standard team size of 6 should be the ideal IMO, as it gives us a minimum performance we can safely rely on - much safer to underestimate mons than overestimate them, I say. Besides, 6-mon teams generally keep up with the ingame level curve, Exp. Share in Gen 6 and beyond aside.

One thing that bugs me is how much some matchups should count versus others or even if they should count differently at all. Whitney is unironically tougher than Will in Crystal, but does that really mean defeating Whitney is more important? On a related note, we need to do a better job of establishing the exact criteria for grading matchup outcomes. How much should Potion use or team support count for or against a Pokemon?
Most threads have it set to 4 roughly. Sometimes 5. But never below or over that amount unless the game hands out enough XP to warrant 6th. This is usually stated inside the thread itself as well. It also depends on the Growth Type of the Pokemon. If you happen to have a Slow, you can say goodbye to having any sort of level matching.

Some MUs are important to consider. As you stated Whitney is tough and she holds value, but this value is also lost if the Pokemon who swept her or did incredibly well starts to flounder all over the rest of the game.

Pretty sure Item Support and Team Support gets talked about in the threads frequently enough. My stance is that usage of 2 Potions is acceptable but anymore and it starts to negatively affect the performance, as you are wasting time and healing rather than dealing damage. (and can simply lose the amount from an attack). Team Support is a bit trickier to deal with. But my stance on those is generally that we are testing a Pokemon's performance based on its merits, not others through support. Granted, some games do warrant support and thus this is where the trickier aspect comes in.
 
Is there any particular reason why games get the amount of tierlist threads they do or is it just that they get write-up threads when there's no one really disagreeing with the current placements?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Is there any particular reason why games get the amount of tierlist threads they do or is it just that they get write-up threads when there's no one really disagreeing with the current placements?
Generally, when ownership is transferred, a new thread is created since it's less effort and more organized than transferring the OP to the new leader. Sometimes, they are rebooted because the old rankings are either too old (see RBY or USUM) or there was a major shift in how rankings were done (see GSC; the list kind of restarted since many of the old rankings took Kanto in mind, which is not considered in the new list), which may slow progress a bit and thus increase the chances of the list being dumped again

As for moving to write-ups, I wouldn't say it happens when there's no disagreement (some people will always disagree with the final ranking), but rather when the leader believes that everything has been discussed enough and continuing discussions will simply lead back to old dicussions and points again, at least from what I've seen in some of the more-recently published lists.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top