How would Gastrodon do in ADV OU?

So while programming my fangame last night, I was thinking about how Shellos and Gastrodon were planned for being introduced in Ruby and Sapphire (their sprites and cries are present in the data, but they can't be obtained) but were scrapped from that game.

Later, they would be introduced in generation IV, as one of the main new Pokémon of that game and one that has a really good legacy on both VGC and Singles.

So I have to ask, how would Gastrodon do in the ADV OU tier? Let's say it gets the same moves as in gen IV (cutting the ones that were not introduced already in ADV of course)

At first glance, it has a Sandstorm inmunity, Recover and Sticky Hold as really good traits, but lacks physical bulk compared to Swampert, who would be its main competition.

I am not an expert of this metagame, so I would like to know what you think :)

:gastrodon:
 

bdt2002

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I once posted a comment in a YouTube video. This topic, and if I can find the comment I’d be glad to share it with you.

So, Gastrodon’s claim to fame is its Water-Ground typing and high HP. Relative to the other Water-Grounds in ADV’s various tiers, it has above average HP and the highest Special Attack of the four options. Gastrodon also has access to 32 PP Recover in this Gen, which unless Quagsire got it by this point helps set it apart. The reason why it’s important bring up the other Water-Grounds is because each ADV tier has one that Gastrodon would be competing with. In OU it would compete with Swampert, in UU it would compete with Quagsire, and in NU it would compete with Whiscash.

My predictions is that Gastrodon wouldn’t be very viable in OU. Swampert’s been a top 5 Pokémon for a long time now and has much better natural bulk on its defensive sets, as well as a stronger mixed attacking game than Gastrodon as seen in Gen 4. The rise of Breloom in recent years doesn’t help either, and both of these guys are hard walled by Celebi and have issues with mons like Dragon Dance Salamence and Gyarados to name a few if the wrong predictions are made.

This in combination with Gastrodon’s poultry Speed and reliance on its easy to wall Special Attack stat would have sent Gastrodon to UU, and it would have fared a little better down there, though still far from being overpowered for the fully evolved ADV UU metagame. Gastrodon would have been able to make more of a name for itself as a result of the lower power level and decent enough longevity coupled by Leftovers. One thing I’d like to mention here is the Storm Drain ability, which if programmed into ADV would give Gastrodon a niche over Quagsire on Spikes based teams given its incredible matchup against the tier’s best spinner Omastar.

On that note, I’d like to end this post off with the reason why Gastrodon would probably keep enough usage to not drop to NU as a result of its flaws: it would be absolutely incredible on stall teams. With the ability to feasibly run Toxic and Recover on the same set, Gastrodon would be able to get opportunities to switch in thanks to its strong defensive typing and 1 to 2 immunities (depending on how Storm Drain is handled) and put the opponent’s offensive threats on a fast timer, potentially made even faster by a nasty surprise in the move Sandstorm. The reason this works so well is because all the viable Steels are locked into UUBL or OU in Gen 3, especially with the NFE Clause banning any stray picks like, I dunno, a Magnemite or something. Defensive EV investment alongside a set of a special move, Toxic, Recover, and another move of the player’s choice alongside Spikes support from another Pokémon would be incredibly versatile, and most notably something Quagsire can’t do as effectively.

Edit: Fully evolved Grass-Types also have a tendency to be locked into UUBL in Gens 2-3 as well, if that helps anything.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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I once posted a comment in a YouTube video. This topic, and if I can find the comment I’d be glad to share it with you.

So, Gastrodon’s claim to fame is its Water-Ground typing and high HP. Relative to the other Water-Grounds in ADV’s various tiers, it has above average HP and the highest Special Attack of the four options. Gastrodon also has access to 32 PP Recover in this Gen, which unless Quagsire got it by this point helps set it apart. The reason why it’s important bring up the other Water-Grounds is because each ADV tier has one that Gastrodon would be competing with. In OU it would compete with Swampert, in UU it would compete with Quagsire, and in NU it would compete with Whiscash.

My predictions is that Gastrodon wouldn’t be very viable in OU. Swampert’s been a top 5 Pokémon for a long time now and has much better natural bulk on its defensive sets, as well as a stronger mixed attacking game than Gastrodon as seen in Gen 4. The rise of Breloom in recent years doesn’t help either, and both of these guys are hard walled by Celebi and have issues with mons like Dragon Dance Salamence and Gyarados to name a few if the wrong predictions are made.

This in combination with Gastrodon’s poultry Speed and reliance on its easy to wall Special Attack stat would have sent Gastrodon to UU, and it would have fared a little better down there, though still far from being overpowered for the fully evolved ADV UU metagame. Gastrodon would have been able to make more of a name for itself as a result of the lower power level and decent enough longevity coupled by Leftovers. One thing I’d like to mention here is the Storm Drain ability, which if programmed into ADV would give Gastrodon a niche over Quagsire on Spikes based teams given its incredible matchup against the tier’s best spinner Omastar.

On that note, I’d like to end this post off with the reason why Gastrodon would probably keep enough usage to not drop to NU as a result of its flaws: it would be absolutely incredible on stall teams. With the ability to feasibly run Toxic and Recover on the same set, Gastrodon would be able to get opportunities to switch in thanks to its strong defensive typing and 1 to 2 immunities (depending on how Storm Drain is handled) and put the opponent’s offensive threats on a fast timer, potentially made even faster by a nasty surprise in the move Sandstorm. The reason this works so well is because all the viable Steels are locked into UUBL or OU in Gen 3, especially with the NFE Clause banning any stray picks like, I dunno, a Magnemite or something. Defensive EV investment alongside a set of a special move, Toxic, Recover, and another move of the player’s choice alongside Spikes support from another Pokémon would be incredibly versatile, and most notably something Quagsire can’t do as effectively.

Edit: Fully evolved Grass-Types also have a tendency to be locked into UUBL in Gens 2-3 as well, if that helps anything.
Quick note, Storm Drain didn't provide an immunity to water moves until Gen 5 so in a theoretical world where Gastrodon was included in the gen 3 games it would be most likely to have the same version of Storm Drain as gen 4, meaning no SAtk boost and no immunity.
 

watermess

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ye it would just be broken , adv doesn't have a recover using water type that also resists rock, we have miltoic and suicune and wish tect vaporeon who all fear rock slide despite not being 2hkoed by it by virtue of CB, DD and also just raw 30% flinches, all the while they also take sand chip, if you attack as they swap you arent healing at all, same with if u get flinched. As a result, when you run one of theses you are still forced to run a true resist with them - or you get flinched once by CB tar, DDtar or CB aero and its over, this can come in many forms but the crux of the matter is, if you switch one of those waters into a faster, boosted rock attack it is really gonna struggle to convincingly win the 1v1. gastrodon would entirely solve that issue, sure you still take a shit tonne from CB tar focus punch but like - everything does, even swampert and milo.

To drive the point home lets do some calcs - lets calc the 2 most similar pokemon (milotic and swampert) and then gastrodon against important attacks so we can clearly see the comparison.

+1 ttar rockslide
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 94-111 (22 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 81-96 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Clearly with recover and rock resistance and sand immune gastro is taking this the best.

+1 ttar focus punch
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 251-296 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 218-257 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 230-271 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
We can see that when we put them all on an even playing field, swampert shows us why it can somehow take CB focus to the face and get back in the game thanks to lefties and tect, gastro takes about 6% more than pert does and milotic takes 5% more, once we factor in the sand immune, swampert and gastro are actually pretty ahead of milo, especially when we start to consider how sometimes cheeky CB tar will focus punch again to nab some extra damage on a milo or bait an attack rather than a recover, gastrodon is more resilient to this kind of play as it has passive recovery it is punished less for each incorrect predict. Non CB tar using focus punch is fully recoverable by gastro and milo, gastro however will also be able to nulify some additional potential spikes damage thanks to its lefties.

+1 aero rockslide

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 72-86 (16.9 - 20.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 63-75 (15.6 - 18.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 29.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 aero double edge
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 154-182 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 134-158 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 141-167 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, aero cant even break gastrodon without 3 layers up,and even then it has to click dedge, milo and pert struggle much more tho with either edge or slide plus spikes are very punishing!

Lastly lets make a note of its utility vs offmie, even if storm drain doesn't work the same in adv - we can only theorise ofc, but having recover means you can easily recover off 8pp of hydro pumps when they don't even 2hko without spikes up, much better than milo which has to avoid a tbolt crit or pert who while it can check offmie, cannot switch directly in and also can find itself checked by offmie at times due to lack of reliable recovery.
252 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Gastrodon: 182-216 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery




Shortcomings
lack of refresh!! - that's a BIG one, much more susceptible to toxic,
No torrent - this makes u worse at beating ddtar in the lategame.
lower attack than pert, you are gonna have to make do with a weak EQ
speed - naturally slower than everything of note bar lax and lix
Offensive viability - you cant threaten to be offensive focus punch or sub endeavor or even simply tech on focus punch to a defensive set to help keep tempo on frail offense teams, and this is a shame for a non preview gen, you are revealing much more info when it hits the field than a pert would.

Conclusion
Gastro would be a pretty nice addition onto balanced and "do nothing style builds" possibly as compression in the milo + metagros, milo+claydol+dug style slots, and also in the place of swampert potentially on balanced spikes style builds, however on teams where the tempo is faster they may benefit from swamperts reliable checking and ability to reduce the number of free turns by attacking straight on the switch and using protect for recovery instead, you probably partner up with mons like celebi to make a nice beefy defensive backbone. It would certainly be OU by sheer virtue of compression imho, honestly you could just use it like a swampert bliss slow pace stall, and replace wish on ur bliss with heal bell :)
 
ye it would just be broken , adv doesn't have a recover using water type that also resists rock, we have miltoic and suicune and wish tect vaporeon who all fear rock slide despite not being 2hkoed by it by virtue of CB, DD and also just raw 30% flinches, all the while they also take sand chip, if you attack as they swap you arent healing at all, same with if u get flinched. As a result, when you run one of theses you are still forced to run a true resist with them - or you get flinched once by CB tar, DDtar or CB aero and its over, this can come in many forms but the crux of the matter is, if you switch one of those waters into a faster, boosted rock attack it is really gonna struggle to convincingly win the 1v1. gastrodon would entirely solve that issue, sure you still take a shit tonne from CB tar focus punch but like - everything does, even swampert and milo.

To drive the point home lets do some calcs - lets calc the 2 most similar pokemon (milotic and swampert) and then gastrodon against important attacks so we can clearly see the comparison.

+1 ttar rockslide
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 94-111 (22 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 81-96 (20 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Clearly with recover and rock resistance and sand immune gastro is taking this the best.

+1 ttar focus punch
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 251-296 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 218-257 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 230-271 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
We can see that when we put them all on an even playing field, swampert shows us why it can somehow take CB focus to the face and get back in the game thanks to lefties and tect, gastro takes about 6% more than pert does and milotic takes 5% more, once we factor in the sand immune, swampert and gastro are actually pretty ahead of milo, especially when we start to consider how sometimes cheeky CB tar will focus punch again to nab some extra damage on a milo or bait an attack rather than a recover, gastrodon is more resilient to this kind of play as it has passive recovery it is punished less for each incorrect predict. Non CB tar using focus punch is fully recoverable by gastro and milo, gastro however will also be able to nulify some additional potential spikes damage thanks to its lefties.

+1 aero rockslide

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 72-86 (16.9 - 20.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 63-75 (15.6 - 18.6%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 29.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 aero double edge
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 154-182 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Swampert: 134-158 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 141-167 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, aero cant even break gastrodon without 3 layers up,and even then it has to click dedge, milo and pert struggle much more tho with either edge or slide plus spikes are very punishing!

Lastly lets make a note of its utility vs offmie, even if storm drain doesn't work the same in adv - we can only theorise ofc, but having recover means you can easily recover off 8pp of hydro pumps when they don't even 2hko without spikes up, much better than milo which has to avoid a tbolt crit or pert who while it can check offmie, cannot switch directly in and also can find itself checked by offmie at times due to lack of reliable recovery.
252 SpA Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Gastrodon: 182-216 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery




Shortcomings
lack of refresh!! - that's a BIG one, much more susceptible to toxic,
No torrent - this makes u worse at beating ddtar in the lategame.
lower attack than pert, you are gonna have to make do with a weak EQ
speed - naturally slower than everything of note bar lax and lix
Offensive viability - you cant threaten to be offensive focus punch or sub endeavor or even simply tech on focus punch to a defensive set to help keep tempo on frail offense teams, and this is a shame for a non preview gen, you are revealing much more info when it hits the field than a pert would.

Conclusion
Gastro would be a pretty nice addition onto balanced and "do nothing style builds" possibly as compression in the milo + metagros, milo+claydol+dug style slots, and also in the place of swampert potentially on balanced spikes style builds, however on teams where the tempo is faster they may benefit from swamperts reliable checking and ability to reduce the number of free turns by attacking straight on the switch and using protect for recovery instead, you probably partner up with mons like celebi to make a nice beefy defensive backbone. It would certainly be OU by sheer virtue of compression imho, honestly you could just use it like a swampert bliss slow pace stall, and replace wish on ur bliss with heal bell :)
Well, first of all, thank you for giving me such a good and educational explanation (and also to everyone that has participated in this thread :D)

I read everything and while I don't have a good knowledge on the ADC metagame yet (I just watch BKC's videos and tourneys replays since 4-5 months ago so I have a long way to go) I can see here all the good stuff it brings up to the table.

However, I have to add just one thing that I thing it's an advantage aganist what is a really powerful move in ADV OU: Knock Off.

You see, Storm Drain doesn't exist in third gen, it wouldn't be programmed until gen IV, so an ADV Gastro would probably have Sticky Hold as its ability.

While it's not Torrent, you have now a 100% guarantee Lefties, even if you're facing Hariyama. I know that, if we're being honest, it's like a niche aganist an already niche strategy, but I found it quite cool :)
 

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