Pet Mod Hoenn Gaiden - Slate 14 (Return and Rework)

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Ema Skye

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So... it's been a while. Again...

I have been talking with the council about the tier and considering a lot of feedback about the tier we've been getting. The conclusion we've reached is that there's a lot of janky stuff in the tier. We have decided to do something different, again, to try and deal with this issue.

We are going to move to a cutting slate. Post in the thread anything we have added that you think is problematic, janky, cheesy, annoying, or otherwise make the tier unenjoyable for you. Anything in the thread will be put in a poll and anything with enough votes will be slated for future bans/nerfs/removals.

Poll will be posted in a few days but feel free to post as many things as you think are necessary.
 
Ursaluna needs to be put on that poll ASAP.

Anyone who has played a HG match in recent times or has taken a look at the Discord knows why it's blatantly unhealthy for the tier. It's stupidly bulky, incredibly strong, pairs very well with threats like BP Zap & DD Flygon, has pretty much no checks outside of Skarm (which is heavily dented by CB Dedge and setup bait for SD), Gengar (which is OHKOed by HP Ghost and OffGar can only 2HKO with Ice Punch), and Shuca/Balloon Ttar (which loses the 1v1 if Luna clicks EQ on the switch or Dedge in the case of Balloon), can run both SD & CB to make it more unpredictable… etc. The point I'm trying to make is that for the betterment of this tier, Luna should be one of the first things that needs to be looked at.
 
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Ema Skye

Work!
Gonna also throw Roserade on here.

Even though it was nerfed with a Spikes + Sleep Powder illegality, it's still the best spiker and none of our spinners are able to spin on it. Spikes stay up forever and there's frankly no reason not to run it in a meta where Spikes are nearly a staple.

I think too it would be good to restore Baton Pass as it is integral to ADV's experience. So we should probably look into some of the mons that pushed Baton Pass over the line: Eelektross, Rhyperior, Magmortar, Electivire and Porygon-Z.
 
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Rezzo

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:glaceon: Glaceon has some incredible traits that allow it to entirely outclass Jynx as well as most other traditional offence leads; the combination of Lovely Kiss + Compound Eyes + STAB base 130 Special Attack Blizzard + Hydro Pump. All three of these moves are 100 accuracy - one of them is sleep and the other is a STAB special nuke that has a chance to freeze.

I'm not convinced that the Sub CM Ice Body set is on the same level as the one above yet, but I can see Glaceon being able to potentially pull off either one of these tricks in the mid-game being borderline impossible to respond to once it gets further optimisation.

:air balloon: Air Balloon allows Tyranitar and electric types to blank their regular checks, avoid spikes damage and also block Dugtrio's Arena Trap. I can't talk too much about this item because I've not played a game with it included yet, but it's quote possible that this item simply doesn't belong in a metagame which welcomes Arena Trap as a valid method of play.

sneasler.png
Sneasler definitely warrants some messing around with. It has a pretty mediocre movepool, but with the right team support it wouldn't surprise me if this thing ploughs through teams like butter, making the previous Fighting staples like Heracross completely redundant.

:talonflame: Talonflame is a red herring in the tier. I don't personally like how much utility it has for free. It can spin, it can reliably heal, it can throw off Will-o-wisps, it can freely switch in on all of the tier's common spikers, it is also Spike-immune, basically it's a massive nuisance and patches over a lot of gaps that teams have with very little thought. It might end up being fine in the tier, though. Idk.

Gonna also throw Roserade on here.

Even though it was nerfed with a Spikes + Sleep Powder illegality, it's still the best spiker and none of our spinners are able to spin on it. Spikes stay up forever and there's frankly no reason not to run it in a meta where Spikes are nearly a staple.
Roserade might possibly exhibit problems deeper into the tier's balance that haven't been properly explored yet. I don't quite think Rose is overpowered as things stand - structures like Magdol are very much a response to the preciseness of ADV OU and with as many introductions as HG has, it was bound to fall apart after some time anyhow.

Rose suffers from the following problems:

- No way to reliably pressure Celebi
- Spikes sets invite Dragon Dance users in to start pressuring it; running HP Ice over HP Fire comes with the trade-off of not being able to hurt Forretress and Skarmory. Tyranitar and Gyarados don't care about either Hidden Power and the latter doesn't take Spikes damage
- Without Stun Spore, Talonflame and Cryogonal nullify Rose's presence
- Without Leech Seed, Rose isn't very sustainable. It will be taking constant statuses for its teammates as well as sandstorm + spikes damage. Even with Leech Seed, it has problems with sustinence in longer matches.

These interactions with the new Mons needs to be explored more, as like I've said, Talonflame and Cryogonal are very solid answers to non Stun Spore variants, and the Stun Spore variants invite Blissey, Celebi and other Natural Cure users in to wall it and wear it down.

I think too it would be good to restore Baton Pass as it is integral to ADV's experience. So we should probably look into some of the mons that pushed Baton Pass over the line: Eelektross, Rhyperior, Magmortar, Electivire and Porygon-Z.
If we're going to unban statpassing we'll need to have a full discussion about what we do and do not want to happen. ADV OU as it is is already balanced on a knife-edge around the subject and people are constantly shifting the landscape of what is and isn't healthy in that metagame. Because of the way this tier is designed from the bottom up, there's a LOT of variables that can easily tip BP over the edge - honestly just getting rid of the move is the easiest and least painful way of fixing this, but if people really prefer to get Baton Pass working and balanced, I'd like for us to spend a good amount of time around it.

Sadly I don't have any replays to demonstrate, but Rhyperior is utterly broken when paired with Zapdos. Having Rock Slide, EQ and Mold Breaker allows it to 2HKO everything in the game after a Swords Dance - the thing is that Zapdos finds it very easy to lure special walls like Blissey and set up an Agility to pass over to Rhyperior, at which point the game is pretty much over save for Rock Slide misses or a miscalculation by the BP player passing too early and being Roared/KOed out by Skarmory or Swampert.

There is also general power creep in the tier that we should be addressing first; Ursaluna has an attack stat that is almost on par with Slaking with added STAB Earthquake, and it has pretty fantastic bulk to allow it to trade hits with whatever it wants in the process.

With all that said, multiple stat passing is currently banned in ADV OU anyway.

03/06 Edit: Going to touch up on a few other things that were discussed in the Discord the other day:

:rhyperior: Rhyperior completely outclasses Rhydon thanks to the increased base stats alongside Mold Breaker. The only two moves it needs are Earthquake and Rock Slide as these are completely unresisted in the tier outside of Breloom and Chesnaught; the former of which cannot safely take more than one +0 Earthquake anyway. With paralysis support, I can see Rhyperior being a huge problem for most teams, as Rhyperior has 2 free moveslots to run Swords Dance and Substitute in, Rhyperior will also passively recover its health back thanks to its sand immunity, and substitute with paralysis support allows it to block Water, Grass and Ice attacks threatening to KO. Rhyperior's attack stat is also so fantastically high, that it can afford to run a lot of bulk to take on attacks that it otherwise wouldn't survive.

:electivire::magmortar: Electivire and Magmortar are seemingly the premier mixed attackers as things stand. Both have fantastic movepools and access to Cross Chop, allowing them to pile pressure onto defensive walls like Blissey and otherwise soft checks like Tyranitar and Snorlax. They are both crippled by Dugtrio however, making them difficult to justify despite their strengths. The additions of Air Balloon and Shuca Berry further solidify the strength of their roles on teams, however I think even without these items in the game they might actually pose an unmatched threat in Hoenn Gaiden.

:electivire: Electivire also is able to run Earthquake off of its base 125 attack stat to smack Jirachi and Metagross reasonably hard. It also learns Flamethrower and Ice Punch, meaning that there is little drawback when it comes to wanting to decide on Hidden Power Grass as it will fit alongside almost any move that Electivire pleases. The only drawback is that Electivire would not be able to run Hidden Power Bug, which seems to be a solid choice for handling Celebi pivoting. As it stands, Electivire has unmatched movepool versatility as a mixed wallbreaker, with fairly handsome stats to really take advantage of this fact.

:magmortar: Magmortar has the benefit of hitting as hard as Moltres with its Fire Blast while being able to run both Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Grass to pressure Swampert and Salamence at the same time. Blissey, Tyranitar and Snorlax aren't suitable checks due to the aforementioned Cross Chop. Hidden Power Ice is likely just fine as a surprise to thwart Flygon and Salamence from setting up in your face. Magmortar feels like the lesser of this pair, but an argument for it outclassing Blaziken could definitely be made.

The main issue I have with the above pair isn't their mixed attacking strengths alone, it's how much pressure they cause teambuilding to want to use Dugtrio where otherwise it wasn't a huge consideration before. Creeping Arena Trap up in power means that we are essentially slowly entering the later generations where Arena Trap massively shifts the tier's balance to the point that banning the ability is the most sensible choice.
 
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ViZar

your toast is burned
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Gonna be honest here, I think the most problematic stuff added comes from the added Gen 4 evolutions, that weren't in this mod before, as well as the additions of Galar and Alola formes and evolutions. First off, it's the fact that a huge amount of Pokemon were added with little to no community input and that a lot of them either steal niches from existing Pokemon, are problematic on their own or have no niche to speak of. I haven't been playing much lately, but from what I've gathered is that:
:mismagius::ambipom::lickilicky::tangrowth::gallade::probopass::weavile::yanmega::togekiss::honchkrow: are trapped in a tier with little to no niche and by looking at their attributes, it is understandable why that's the case. There are Pokemon that do their jobs better (:gengar: > :mismagius: / :salamence::zapdos-galar::tyranitar: > :honchkrow:) while others are just bad (:ambipom::yanmega:)

:rhyperior::electivire::magmortar: are the most problematic from what I've seen. :rhyperior: is really strong and bulky on its own and it manages to mess slower and bulkier teams up. :electivire: and :magmortar: are dangerous Mixed Attackers that can beat some teams on their own.

:zapdos-galar::articuno-galar::moltres-galar: seem to be the best regional formes but the rest still struggles by competing with other Pokemon or just sucking. :obstagoon: is also a great Pokemon that can be seen as problematic, but it seem to be the best of the galarian evolutions.

To be fair, a lot of them are bad because they are trapped in OU and some would've been better in UU or NU (or RU whatever) but since OU is the focus of the mod, I would focus on getting Pokemon in OU.
Now do I think we should remove all of them? Not really, there are some Pokemon that are cool but most of them feel unnecessary or redundant.


Now, I'd like to support some of the suggestions that were made:
iceblazer said:
Ursaluna needs to be put on that poll ASAP.

Anyone who has played a HG match in recent times or has taken a look at the Discord knows why it's blatantly unhealthy for the tier. It's stupidly bulky, incredibly strong, pairs very well with threats like BP Zap & DD Flygon, has pretty much no checks outside of Skarm (which is heavily dented by CB Dedge and setup bait for SD), Gengar (which is OHKOed by HP Ghost and OffGar can only 2HKO with Ice Punch), and Shuca/Balloon Ttar (which loses the 1v1 if Luna clicks EQ on the switch or Dedge in the case of Balloon), can run both SD & CB to make it more unpredictable… etc. The point I'm trying to make is that for the betterment of this tier, Luna should be one of the first things that needs to be looked at.

I'll probably add one or two more things here, just wanna get the main issue out of the way first.
:glaceon: Glaceon has some incredible traits that allow it to entirely outclass Jynx as well as most other traditional offence leads; the combination of Lovely Kiss + Compound Eyes + STAB base 130 Special Attack Blizzard + Hydro Pump. All three of these moves are 100 accuracy - one of them is sleep and the other is a STAB special nuke that has a chance to freeze.

I'm not convinced that the Sub CM Ice Body set is on the same level as the one above yet, but I can see Glaceon being able to potentially pull off either one of these tricks in the mid-game being borderline impossible to respond to once it gets further optimisation.

:air balloon: Air Balloon allows Tyranitar and electric types to blank their regular checks, avoid spikes damage and also block Dugtrio's Arena Trap. I can't talk too much about this item because I've not played a game with it included yet, but it's quote possible that this item simply doesn't belong in a metagame which welcomes Arena Trap as a valid method of play.


If we're going to unban statpassing we'll need to have a full discussion about what we do and do not want to happen. ADV OU as it is is already balanced on a knife-edge around the subject and people are constantly shifting the landscape of what is and isn't healthy in that metagame. Because of the way this tier is designed from the bottom up, there's a LOT of variables that can easily tip BP over the edge - honestly just getting rid of the move is the easiest and least painful way of fixing this, but if people really prefer to get Baton Pass working and balanced, I'd like for us to spend a good amount of time around it.


Sadly I don't have any replays to demonstrate, but Rhyperior is utterly broken when paired with Zapdos. Having Rock Slide, EQ and Mold Breaker allows it to 2HKO everything in the game after a Swords Dance - the thing is that Zapdos finds it very easy to lure special walls like Blissey and set up an Agility to pass over to Rhyperior, at which point the game is pretty much over save for Rock Slide misses or a miscalculation by the BP player passing too early and being Roared/KOed out by Skarmory or Swampert.


There is also general power creep in the tier that we should be addressing first; Ursaluna has an attack stat that is almost on par with Slaking with added STAB Earthquake, and it has pretty fantastic bulk to allow it to trade hits with whatever it wants in the process.

With all that said, multiple stat passing is currently banned in ADV OU anyway.
 
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I'd like to chip in. Currently there's 3 threats I feel like are gonna be really strong in the metagame that haven't been mentioned, yet. They are:

1. :flygon: Flygon: So Flygon gets Dragon Dance and Lunge now, two really great moves for it. It can run like DD, EQ, Rock Slide, Lunge and hit everything in the meta incredibly hard except for Skarm (which you can pair with Mag for). I haven't seen it be unhealthy, yet, but STAB EQ after a DD hits pretty good.
2. :marowak-alola: Marowak-Alola: Mainly featured on ParaSpread teams, Marowak-Alola can run something like Swords Dance, Shadow Ball, Bonemerang, Rock Slide for really great coverage (and Bonemerang breaks through Subs, which is especially key considering a lot of Electric types and Jirachi like to set up subs). When given the right support (Mag + TWave support), it can really run wild.
3. :raikou: Raikou: We haven't seen the rise of Kou yet, but there may come a time when people actually figure out to run it; surprisingly there's a lot of Pokemon that outspeed it now, so it isn't as big of a threat as it would be in vanilla ADV. The fact that it outspeeds Dugtrio-Alola is worth noting, although it would have to be running HP Fire (or Water, even) to reliably OHKO it. Normally it'll be running HP Grass for Pert, though, I'd imagine.
 
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Rezzo

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I don't agree with Flygon being potentially overpowered/unhealthy. Running Magneton alongside certainly seems like a wise choice, however, anything with either levitate or better-than-average bulk can take +1 Earthquake from Flygon. Pokemon like Swampert (defensive and offensive), Blissey, Gengar, Suicune, Cloyster all come in very comfortably and KO with Ice attacks. Timid Zapdos lives +1 Rock Slide and thus can KO with Hidden Power Ice if it doesn't get flinched. Gyarados and Salamence can be used on offensive teams to Intimidate pivot Flygon's Dragon Dance attempts.

Flygon really needs at least two Dragon Dances to do anything, even on Adamant, and even then it can't OHKO Blissey, offensive Swampert, Gengar or offensive Suicune from full. I certainly think it has potential to be a good Pokemon, but implying that it may outshadow other Dragon Dance users like Salamence is a bit of a stretch.

Fruhdazi and I have explored Raikou, it suffers from the same issues as it does in ADV OU here, and Tail Glow doesn't really help its weakness to Dugtrio compounding alongside its movepool issues. Air Balloon might be everything that Raikou has ever wanted though.

Marowak-A is pelted by hazards and sandstorm with no way to recover them off, on top of having a very difficult time coming in safely. It's also painfully slow and cannot pressure anything that's faster than it, and because it's so slow, as far as I can tell it needs Dugtrio support to get past the likes of Blissey and Celebi, not to mention that Mons like Aerodactyl, Starmie, Jolteon and Swampert almost never become paralysed due to the way they are played in the tier. So I can't really see any case being made for Marowak.

All that said, I haven't really seen these Mons much in action despite testing the former two myself, and I've never seen Marowak used to any success whatsoever. So do feel free to showcase these Mons performing above and beyond if I'm missing something here.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Ok, we have our results! We had 11 voters and the results were fairly conclusive in identifying a few problematic elements, as well as many that simply have no place in OU and are bloating the tier. Therefore, the changes are as follows:

:eelektross: is losing Superpower
:glaceon: is losing Compound Eyes

Moving to HG Ubers: Ursaluna, Rhyperior, Electivire, Roserade, Sneasler, Air Balloon
Moving to HG UUBL: Magmortar, Porygon-Z, Dusknoir, Mamoswine, Obstagoon
Moving to HG UU: Mismagius, Togekiss, Raticate-Alola, Cursola, Ninetales-Alola, Ambipom, Tangrowth, Gallade, Probopass, Weavile, Yanmega, Honchkrow, Persian-Alola, Muk-Alola, Exeggutor-Alola, Weezing-Galar, Perrserker, Sandslash-Alola, Rapidash-Galar, Wyrdeer, Leafeon, Slowbro-Galar, Lickilicky, Marowak-Alola, Sirfetch'd, Kleavor, Overqwil

Tagging Yoshiblaze or ViZar to implement the changes. We do have a lower tiers discussion channel on Discord that ViZar coordinates for UU discussion.
 

Rezzo

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is a Pre-Contributor
If people want Roserade banned, surely someone should do something about Roselia as well, it's basically the same Mon except it hits slightly less hard

Also the teambuilder still treats Roselia with Sleep Powder and Spikes as legal :worrywhirl:
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Roselia's move incompatability has been addressed in the latest pull request so that hopefully shouldn't be an issue any longer.

We are going to go on break until PMPL concludes to allow the tier to solidify in time for the tournament. Our Discord is open (link in the OP) for people looking to practice.
 

Ema Skye

Work!
Double Post but Resource Update!!

We are going to prepare an update to the VR before PMPL, and to get us in that mindset, I have prepared a list of Pokemon from ADV and how the changes impact them. This is in ADV VR order.

:tyranitar: - Weakness berries are huge for it, and are probably key to having it stay in a prime position in the tier. Otherwise, it doesn't benefit from many of the changes, and instead finds itself hurt by them.
:metagross: - Completely unchanged and consistent as ever. The rise of Jellicent is concerning for it, but that is about the only counter it got (and has), so it is relatively easy to support.
:zapdos: - Consistent as ever, and even with the new Electrics, Zapdos is still on top. Even with the nerfed Baton Pass, it still finds value in it.
:jirachi: - Weakness berries are a valiable option on CM builds, which seem pretty hot. Probably better in HG than ADV as its versatility is still unmatched.
:gengar: - Likely still the best Ghost, with only Jellicent really coming close to its throne. All kinds of sets are still viable, though Pursuit trappers are more common due to the raw increase in Ghosts.
:skarmory: Even with all the spikers we've added, it's still one of the best. Only Deo-Def can match its consistent ability to setup Spikes, and I was recently introduced to a Wacan Berry + HP Ground set that actually beats Magneton. I am convinced Skarmory will continue to stay relevant.
:swampert: If there is one thing we added a lot of, its bulky Waters and even though we added many, Swampert is still a candidate for the best. Its sand immunity is only shared by Dracovish and Cloyster, though Swampert boasts higher bulk. Of course, Jellicent also competes with it due to its access to recovery and burn. It still comes out ahead in terms of meta trends.
:salamence: - Still very good, especially on sets with Yache to survive stray HP Ice. Given out emphasis on TSS builds, Salamence does quite well as an anti-meta pick and I'm sure retains a lot of its viability.
:blissey: - Skarmory is good as ever, so Blissey is still as good as ever, but it does gain some new competitors that shape its movesets. Snorlax's Lovely Kiss outclasses Sing Blissey as a fat sleeper. Togekiss is less bulky, but it is immune to Spikes and boasts higher SpA for dispatching weakened Metagross. Alcremie is immune to Toxic and boasts high SpA, and its ability to spin gives it some utility while sponging hits.
:celebi: - Early HG, we almost banned Celebi as the Giga Drain buff was instrumental for it. No longer needing to give up its Hidden Power type for Grass STAB was huge, and made it a much more versatile threat. While the meta is more prepared for it, it is still indisputably the best Grass mon.
:suicune: - This one has honestly fallen off a bit, and I'm not really sure why. Its raw bulk is the best of all the Waters, and CM+Pressure wins games. I think it is largely a victim of 'new toy syndrome' more than anything.
:dugtrio: - Shuca Berry limits how well it can trap Ground-weak targets like Tyranitar, so it is probably worse off than before. Dugtrio-Alola competes with it as a trapper, though their typings give them different targets to trap.
:aerodactyl: - Completely unchanged and still dismantles poorly built offense. Still as consistent as every and hasn't really gained new checks or counters.


:snorlax: - Lovely Kiss is a sizable buff for it, making it a very reliable sleeper and adds to its utility. This is a great buff for Focus Punch builds, or giving it a free turn to Curse.
:claydol: - As a Spikes immune spinner, Claydol has more competition, with Cryogonal and Talonflame taking its role to other options. Cryogonal's speed tier is huge, giving it the jump on the 100s, while it is able to recover and boom. Talonflame has an insane Skarmory matchup (inb4 HP Rock + Occa Skarmory), and has access to a fast wisp and recovery. Claydol is definitely in a worse spot than before, and likely only has viability if you really need a rock resist.
:starmie: - With Cryogonal and Talonflame both having recovery and good speed, Starmie's old niche as a spinner is much weaker. It is likely still fine in offensive roles due to its coverage.
:forretress: - Forretress offers spikes + spin role compression as its main source of viability. With more anti-Magneton options in the tier, Forretress can run Rock Slide to lure Talonflame wanting to spin on it, as well as an Occa Berry for less risky plays. It is still completely shut down by Ghosts though, which makes it more viable as a spiker than a spinner in my opinion.
:breloom: - Honestly probably still just as good. Talonflame and Cryogonal are issues for it, but nothing, obviously, takes Spore well.
:magneton: - Definitely struggles due to innovations like Wacan + HP Ground Skarm and EQ Forretress. None of the other Steels are ones it can trap. Further, given the multiple options for Spikes in the tier, MagPull + Spinner builds are not super reliable.


:moltres: - Talonflame does a lot of its role better unless you really want that strong Fire Blast. Its access to Softboiled let it take advantage of the typing's defensive strengths. This does put Moltres in a very weird spot in the tier.
:heracross: - Rock Slide threatens most spinners well, allowing it to get up Spikes relatively easily. Spikes doesn't always synergize with Focus Punch builds though, so more experimentation is needed.
:milotic: - Jellicent killed its viability early, providing more utility for Milotic's 'mixed wall with recovery' niche. Its only niche is likely if you really want to punish Wisps.
:gyarados: - Gyarados' flaws are exacerbated here as it is no longer a consistent wallbreaker due to its Hidden Power problems, and lack of options for dealing with Skarmory make its role harder.
:flygon: - While Morning Sun is weakened in sand, Flygon's immunity to most passive damage and its EdgeQuake resist make it a decent defensive option in the tier. Lunge makes it a decent check to DD Tyranitar as well to stop it from boosting. Unlike the rest of this VR rank, Flygon seems to fare fine in HG.
:jolteon: - Struggles due to the new Electrics, as stuff like Raichu, Minun and Plusle have ways around dealing with Dugtrio, and Jolteon's limited coverage is starting to show.
:cloyster: - Cloyster was completely overhauled early in HG, granting it a better defensive typing and improved mixed bulk. This came at the cost of a sizeable nerf to its Explosion. As a Spiker, Cloyster has phenomenal matchups against Cryogonal and Talonflame, unless they tech a HP for it. Rapid Spin feels less required on it, and it can instead use Toxic to beat both of the above spinners. Even with its nerfed Explosion, it can still use that to threaten CryoFlame as well. Further, Overcoat provides a weather damage immunity, which improves its bulk further. As a result, Cloyster is likely even more viable in HG than in ADV.
:charizard: - Belly Drum is scary and is how it stands out from Talonflame. Haven't seen this used much at all so I'm not very familiar with it.
:vaporeon: - Dead in the Water like Milotic. Too many competitors for it, especially with nerfed Baton Pass.
:hariyama: - Yama's ability to check threats like Tyranitar while also removing Leftovers is pretty huge. Gliscor steps on its toes a bit here, as its also immune to sand and Spikes. Definitely benefitted from the removal of Knock Off from a lot of Pokemon.


:porygon2: - Probably fine, though it does have more fat Normal competition (see Blissey's section). Taking advantage of Trace will be key to its viability.
:jynx: - More Lovely Kiss users hurt its niche, as does Parasect's buff. Likely doesn't fare too well in the tier.
:venusaur: - Struggles due to Celebi's buff and Zarude's role in the tier. Lack of an Earthquake resistance hurts defensively.
:kingdra: - Rain has always struggled due to Ttar, Delibird and Sunflora. It generally has way worse matchups here as well.
:steelix: - With its great matchups against most of the non-Water top tiers, it does okay. Sharpen improves its passivity issues, though slotting it is tough. Sand Veil makes it essentially immortal to physical moves during sand.
:medicham: - There are more Fighters here, such as Lopunny and Toxicroak, and more Ghosts make Medicham's job harder.
:smeargle: - Spikes + Spore gives it a powerful role as a lead, though its bulk prevents this from being consistent. Baton Pass nerf hurts hard.
:raikou: - Even with Tail Glow, Raikou has struggled to make an impression in the tier. This might be a case of underuse rather than viability though.
:regice: - Cryogonal does a lot of its utility and more, though it requires giving up its HP type to match Regice's coverage.
:machamp: :weezing: :ludicolo: :donphan: - Likely just a victim of too much competition
:marowak: - Removal of Baton Pass makes its role way harder to pull off for minimal reward.
:houndoom: - Still has the strongest Pursuit, but Jellicent and Golurk reduce its ability to do so for critical targets.
:umbreon: - rip Baton Pass
:camerupt: - Being able to ignore Levitate as a Ground is huge, and STAB for Skarmory allows Camerupt to be quite anti-meta. Its speed and reliance on its Hidden Power type will keep it from being incredible though.
:blaziken: - forever walled by Jellicent removes a lot of the threat from its mixed attacking prowess
:armaldo: - Rapid Spin, Knock Off and HP Bug make it a decent utility option. Getting the jump on Metagross to EQ it is also pretty cool. Might be worth exploring.


And the new stuff, in no particular order:
:jellicent: - I talked a lot about it above for a good reason: Taunt, Wisp and Recover make it a valuable tool for nearly every team, giving it enough tools to rival both Swampert and Gengar for their roles. Its main weakness is its susceptibility to residual damage, especially spikes.
:golurk: - An offensive approach to being a Ghost. With an immunity to sand and a defense boost, it compresses a lot of valuable resists such as Electric, Rock and Normal.
:cryogonal: - An amazing spinner due its speed tier and access to both recovery and explosion. Gives it a fairly good Gengar matchup as it is forced to boom to take it out, while also having STAB for Golurk. Toxic will be required to beat Jellicent and Cloyster though.
:talonflame: - Spikes immune, access to burn, high speed and recovery make it a fairly incredible option. Is a surprisingly good check to spikers like Skarmory and Forretress. As a spinner, it is not quite as good as Cryogonal due to its weakness to Jellicent, Thunderbolt Gengar and Rock Slide Golurk.
:overqwil: - Dark/Ghost Spiker with boom and Intimidate offers some cool role compression. The movepool is dire though, so it is a fairly linear option.
:deoxys-s: - The fastest viable Pokemon and, therefore, the fastest Spiker. Helps enable offensive builds as a lead, while also having a good matchup against other leads like Ttar.
:delibird: - An incredible lead matchup to set the Hail while punishing leads like Tyranitar (Low Kick) and Zapdos (Ice Beam). Can't really fit all of its utility like Spikes and spin onto most of its builds.
:abomasnow: - The hail option if you hate Waters, but otherwise less viable than Delibird.
:moltres-galar: - Slightly weaker Pursuit than Houndoom, but a better matchup against most Ghosts like Jellicent. Good luck building a moveset though!
:chesnaught: - EdgeQuake resist and Water resist are valuable, especially when combined with Spikes and STAB for Tyranitar. A valuable role compression tool.
:dracovish: - A decently fat Water with a great typing. Tools like Refresh and Super Fang give it a fairly unique gameplan that is worth exploring.
:alcremie: - High SpDef, Toxic immunity, Recover and Spin make it a decent option. Liquid Ooze makes it a surprising Celebi answer due to denying it Leech Seed
:glaceon: - Snorlax, but special attacker. Hydro Pump is a valuable tool for hitting the Steels.
:ledian: - The fatter metagame hurts it from its original peak, but it still does quite well against underprepped teams.
:lopunny: - Dual STAB + HP Ghost has perfect coverage, letting it use its high speed to mess with whatever it wants using that last slot. Hilarious with Pursuit support.
:raichu-alola: - An Electric that doesn't fear Dugtrio and is immune to Spikes. Has good coverage and a strong Volt Tackle to make it distinct from Zapdos.
:minun: - STAB BoltBeam, Spikes immune and Dugtrio-proof is a solid combination. Doesn't hit quite as hard as other options, but is worth exploring.
:plusle: - A metagame staple with an incredibly typing and nuclear Electric STAB. Is rather scared of Dugtrio though.
:silvally: - Fighting, Ghost, Ground and Flying are the best options. Will always be held back by a lack of Leftovers, but Multi Attack with Swords Dance is strong.
:gliscor: - Immune to Spikes, sand, EQ and Thunderbolt makes it difficult to deal with. Knock Off makes it extra annoying. Has the bulk to be a decent psuedo Rock resist or Metagross check.
:sunflora: - reset the weather and go nuts with your decent coverage. There have been some coding issues with Weather Ball so please let us know if you encounter more.
:toxicroak: - A cool check to Tyranitar and bulky Waters in one slot. Can shut down Jellicent builds with Taunt.
:zarude: - A fat Grass with a sand immunity and the ability to cure Toxic. It is surprisingly resiliant, but is difficult to build with due to its low SpA. Is a pretty cool anti-Ghost mon if you don't want a Pursuit user.
:nidoking: - Decent speed tier, strong coverage and access to Sleep make it decently hard to switch into. Does require insane prediction when it comes to switching in though.
:togekiss: - Decently fat due to Spikes immunity and Softboiled. Stats are in the right place and has enough coverage to find a place in OU.
:torkoal: - Body Press + ID + Slack Off is incredibly difficult to deal with without Toxic support. Can and will sweep unprepped teams.
:roserade: - This is a controversial one, but as a spiker it does struggle with its Talonflame/Cryogonal matchup. Has a pretty cool matchup against the Waters to give it a niche as a spiker though. I suppose we can let it back into the tier. Here's your prize for reading all the way through.


I am sure I missed some stuff in here, but I welcome the discussion on stuff I may have missed.

We'll try to coordinate a full VR update in the coming weeks, as well as some practice tours before PMPL.
 

Rezzo

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Pre-Contributor
magmolthg.png
(click on the image above for the paste)
I've had a relatively uneventful week IRL and fancy reviewing one of my newer teams in a "Rate My Team" style, just in time for celebrating my 64th post too (why not)!

I think if anything, outside of the competitive viability, this is the most aesthetically pleasing team of six that I've built for any tier ever, as Roserade, Golurk, Magneton and Snorlax are firmly among my all-time favourite Pokemon designs. Being able to identify and use these in a solid team of six in some tier, somewhere, at some stage in history has really tickled the right spot.

But enough about me, let's talk about the six. This team as you may have noticed is heavily influenced by TheLinearCurve's BKC's Magneton + Moltres combination*, of which you can see a variant used in SPL in this replay. From playing Hoenn Gaiden for quite some time now, I figured that Roserade, Magneton and Lovely Kiss Snorlax have enough early game prowess to open up space for Moltres and Salamence to clean up, while also experimenting with Golurk as a spinblocker and a decent physical check to Mons like Aerodactyl, Tyranitar, Heracross and Snorlax.

Overall, like a Linear team (even though I'm lead to believe this isn't akin to a Linear structure), this team is pretty hard to use but it has all the pieces to win in many matchups. Without further ado let's dive in!

* Turns out I can't remember who made the exact team I based this from; you can see me use it in this replay. Whatever though - I kept Linear in the background because it looks hilarious, and the poster does look a litle like a BKC video thumbnail

roserade-f.gif

花忍者 (Roserade) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpD / 116 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Extrasensory
Roserade, Roserade, Roserade. Probably the most talked about Mon in all of Hoenn Gaiden. It's certainly made a name for itself as a solid lead and a premier spiker. Here Roserade is acting as the team's "mixmence". That is to say; it has a way of pressuring Blissey despite being primarily a special attacker. Spikes into both Leech Seed and Natural Cure give you resilience to keep Blissey at bay as you spike up, while Giga Drain offers a way to gradually restore HP as you attempt to break the opponent before they break you.

Hidden Power Fire in the last slot is perfectly sensible, no doubt, however this team has a glaringly large Gengar weakness, and Extrasensory allows this team to keep some form of pressure on Gengar without setting sand. Not consistent, but much better than relying here on HP fire and Snorlax's HP Steel to scrape Gengar's health down through a nasty burn.

golurk.gif

西瓜 (Golurk) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball
- Toxic
- Protect
Golurk certainly gives me the impression that it enables offensive roles in Hoenn Gaiden like no ADV OU Mon is able to, due to having access to all of STAB Earthquake, a sandstorm immunity, Focus Punch, 404 substitutes, a Rock resistance and Selfdestruct at its disposal. My favourite set is definitely an offensive variant with max attack Adamant, with enough speed to outrun standard Skarmory while running Earthquake, Rock Slide, Focus Punch and Selfdestruct.

Instead though, here I've opted to try my first attempt at a defensive set - Golurk is moderately better than Metagross at handling physical Tyranitar and Heracross while also being much less vulnerable to being trapped by Dugtrio (and never being trapped by Magneton). With all that it's also able to spinblock versus Talonflame, Forretress and Claydol comfortably. Golurk is also a stopping gap to Aerodactyl sweeping past this six (and one of the best Aerodactyl checks overall).

Initially I opted for Signal Beam over Shadow Ball, but I find that Shadow Ball is much more useful for really nailing damage onto Gengar and Starmie instead of trying to double down on catching Celebi - a Mon which Moltres and Salamence have an easy time taking care of when the spikes are down.

snorlax-bw.gif

小呆 (Snorlax) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Lovely Kiss
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Steel]
- Self-Destruct
Snorlax has two new brilliant tools in Lovely Kiss and the Custap Berry at its disposal now, and here I've tired to take advantage of them to pave way by using Lax as an offensive wallbreaker and suitable soft check for the likes of Zapdos and Starmie. The EVs allow you to take special hits easier while also opening up the physical side a little to allow you to naturally fall into Custap range with sandstorm, spikes and Double Edge recoil for either a clutch Lovely Kiss or Selfdestruct.

Hidden Power Steel keeps offensive pressure on both Tyranitar and Gengar; both Mons who wall this set after absorbing a sleep elsewhere.

Thick Fat over Immunity might actually be a good choice here as being poisoned means that you can Custap explode on your own accord rather than having to (somewhat) aimlessly chip yourself down into range. It also helps block Gengar from burning you, allowing you to be a bit more aggressive towards it.

magneton.gif

黏 (Magneton) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Toxic
- Substitute
Magneton's role here is to provide additional pressure onto Steel types so that both Moltres and Salamence can easily OHKO them as a response to Magneton chipping them down after trapping. Skarmory is the obvious spike-immune exception here, but otherwise cannot handle Magneton being able to hit it super effectively with the new Expert Belt Thunderbolt combination.

Toxic and Substitute enable you to get into cute scenarios vs Blissey if the Leech Seed is down, but otherwise help to Toxic stall anything that resists your attacks for late-game cleaning from the aforementioned Moltres and Salamence.

moltres.gif

凤凰 (Moltres) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Toxic
- Roar
This team pretty much starts to fall in line with the ADV OU outlook of Moltres and Salamence from here on out. The main reason for Toxic over Will-o-wisp is not only the consistency because of the accuracy, but also the volatility of teambuilding in Hoenn Gaiden means we don't quite know when we're going to see the next big Fire type take over. It also helps hugely vs Talonflame.

salamence.gif

龙 (Salamence) @ Yache Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide​

Standard DDMence ready to sweep at the endgame. The addition of Yache Berry means that you have EVs to spare to throw into your speed stat rather than going specially defensive to survive stray Ice Beams. Mence's Flying typing alongside the coverage of these 3 moves enable you to be less cautious around spikes being on your side of the field, something this team is wary of in general, and also use Intimidate in a pinch to soften something like Lopunny from attempting to sweep.

Closing Thoughts:

This team massively wishes it had a Tyranitar somewhere. The sandstorm would be very useful for Moltres especially to land damage that sticks, but also to keep Gengar from passively recovering whenever it sees a gap in momentum to rob my team of it. Furthermore Tyranitar just helps versus Gengar here, and while this team does have ways to pile Gengar, they do feel insufficient. No team is without its flaws though, and the Gengar matchup isn't impossible thanks to Roserade's bulk and both Golurk's and Snorlax's ability to still chip it through a Wisp burn.

Being able to keep spikes away is important for this team, but it's not crucial. Something like Roar Zapdos can make things a living nightmare if your opponent manages to shoot three layers onto your side, however Snorlax's Lovely Kiss + Double Edge + Custap combo can play a strong offensive role in keeping Zapdos and company from getting too eager with Roar shuffling the team to zero.

Metagross over Golurk also seems like a perfectly fine choice - I think in fact in many matchups it's better as it eases the Gengar matchup while also providing a Toxic immunity.

I think that's it for now, this team's both very fun to stare at as well as use, and is a great way to sum up my feelings towards Hoenn Gaiden in general.

Shoutout to all the crew who I've played this alongside (too many to name but if you feel like I am thinking of you, I am!), Paulluxx The Intern for introducing me to this mod, Ema Skye for running it, ViZar for implementing it, Fruhdazi a.k.a. Shitrock Enjoyer for building like 30+ teams when we're procrastinating, and finally my partner's two cats for being on like half the teams I make as nicknames.

Till next time!
 

Ema Skye

Work!
We ran two tours today!

Round 1: Won by Regic Boat, runner up Rezzo 3/4: EeveeGirl1380 and Ema Skye
Round 2: Tied by Yoshiblaze and Lord Zorz, Runners up: EeveeGirl1380 and Ema Skye

Thank you to LRXC, Moretto, Superior Serperior and megaspoopy000 for joining us as well!

Usage Stats:
SM OU

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Tyranitar          |   14 |  58.33% |  42.86% |
| 2    | Zapdos             |    7 |  29.17% |  42.86% |
| 3    | Jirachi            |    6 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 3    | Skarmory           |    6 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 5    | Metagross          |    5 |  20.83% |  60.00% |
| 5    | Blissey            |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 5    | Jellicent          |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 8    | Aerodactyl         |    4 |  16.67% |  75.00% |
| 8    | Suicune            |    4 |  16.67% |  75.00% |
| 8    | Starmie            |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Chesnaught         |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Kecleon            |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Roserade           |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Claydol            |    4 |  16.67% |  25.00% |
| 15   | Electrode-Hisui    |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 15   | Glaceon            |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Salamence          |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Ledian             |    3 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Mamoswine          |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Skuntank           |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Sunflora           |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Porygon2           |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Plusle             |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Dugtrio            |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Kingdra            |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Ludicolo           |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Abomasnow          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Snorlax            |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Deoxys-Speed       |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Gengar             |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Talonflame         |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 19   | Lopunny            |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Illumise           |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Raichu-Alola       |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Magneton           |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 19   | Moltres            |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Torkoal            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Lanturn            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Slowking-Galar     |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Raikou             |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Gliscor            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Heracross          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Alcremie           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Dugtrio-Alola      |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Golurk             |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Swampert           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from EEVEEGIRL_STAR13.
  • Missing 3 Pokemon from LRXC ✔.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from REZZO64.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from REGIC BOAT.
  • Missing 2 Pokemon from OLD DANCE JACKET.
  • Missing 1 Pokemon from EEVEEGIRL_STAR13.

Takeaways:
  • Tyranitar is still king.
  • Kecleon had a run. Protean moment.
  • Rain got some love
  • Lots of interest in exploring some new threats, with Mamoswine going hard in round 1 finals.
  • Taunt is holding the tier together.
  • Golurk had a run in the practice games, but was quite underused during the tours.
  • Skarm/Bliss + Jellicent in top 10 emerged as a consistent defensive core
  • Spikes. Are. Everywhere.
  • Lovely Kiss has 2 accuracy (or at least it feels like it!) :psycry:
We also have one quick balance update!

:ledian: will be losing Tail Glow. As much as it is the icon of our mod (though Jellicent is giving it a run for its money), Ledian's exceptional coverage and access to Magic Guard has allowed it to take on threats it frankly has no business dealing with (including winning against Blissey with relative ease). Magic Guard should still allow it to stallbreak well, doing quite well against some TSS mainstays like Skarmory, Gengar and Swampert.

We do have some other threats on our radar (and want to figure out why Lovely Kiss never seems to hit!!), so please stay tuned. We'll try and do this again next weekend. Our Discord remains the best place to get games in if you're looking to learn before the PMPL starts.
 

Paulluxx

[Regional Manager of Big Shifu]
is a Community Contributor
So, we've got a little announcement, and its bittersweet. The illustrious Ema Skye is stepping down from his captains seat for this mod. And after a little delibirdation, discussion, and my volunteering to take the helm.

So I have become the new Fascist Dictator Tier Leader of Hoenn Gaiden


Except, this was all a secret plot. The council has been filled with puppets slowly and this is all a ploy to Kill Santa
c3b1282bc6d40b31c2ce29914de3f0c9.jpg



Delibird is now banned from Hoenn Gaiden OU

After some discussion and further playtesting this mon is too much for the tier, bolstering 106/106 offensive stats, which could enable all sorts of sets, its 107 Speedtier, outspeeding everything it needs to, Recovery in Milk Drink, Spikes and Spin providing it endless game to game usability, Magic Guard making it entirely immune to chip, Ground Immunity netting it even a Dugtrio trapping immunity, And then also a massive boost to its bulk, which still not good is made amazing by its chip immunity, and 107 Speed recovery. All these factors combine to create an incredibly overpowered, and un-competitive mess of a mon. And it also has STAB Ice Beam.

Ignore the fact I lost to it... (looking at you Gekokeso )

Lord Zorz will be posting the team he used, for posterity.

 
I present to you;

Rezzo + ODJ Delibird Defensive TSS
(formally known as Paul Killer)
1649455987264.png

April Fool (Delibird) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Milk Drink
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Ice Beam



Fourth of July (Swampert) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Protect



Cinco de Mayo (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 44 HP / 212 SpA / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss



Halloween (Milotic) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Refresh



Hanukkah (Gengar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 8 SpA / 112 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch



Passover (Zapdos-Galar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 68 HP / 188 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brick Break
- Hp Rock
- Drill Peck
- Bulk Up / Roar / Taunt





This team is absolutely disgusting! Beyond the very clearly busted Delibird, Knock Off Milo is also highly sus and I recommend you use it everyone(atop of also discussing if we should keep it around as it's pretty gross).

The actual cool thing to be found here is Zapdos-Galar actually, a interesting 'mon that was written off early on, but actually works really well on defensive teams! So while Delibird is currently banned, you take away from this experience Gapdos and Knock-Off Milotic for your own teams. Again, Rezzo helped me a bunch with this team but you can credit the Gapdos to me. ;D

Worth noting is that Delibird is so ridiculously busted that even when doing subpar you can win rounds with it, I'll be submitting replays into the discord from the testing done on it--Please understand you don't want to vs this monster, I felt a little gross running it. Hopefully after the pmpl we can revisit Delibird proper and adjust him to a more manageable state. Till then, congrats birb, you got banned to Ubers.
 
I present to you;

Rezzo + ODJ Delibird Defensive TSS
(formally known as Paul Killer)
View attachment 417616
April Fool (Delibird) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Milk Drink
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Ice Beam



Fourth of July (Swampert) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Protect



Cinco de Mayo (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 44 HP / 212 SpA / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss



Halloween (Milotic) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Knock Off
- Recover
- Refresh



Hanukkah (Gengar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 8 SpA / 112 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch



Passover (Zapdos-Galar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 68 HP / 188 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brick Break
- Hp Rock
- Drill Peck
- Bulk Up / Roar / Taunt





This team is absolutely disgusting! Beyond the very clearly busted Delibird, Knock Off Milo is also highly sus and I recommend you use it everyone(atop of also discussing if we should keep it around as it's pretty gross).

The actual cool thing to be found here is Zapdos-Galar actually, a interesting 'mon that was written off early on, but actually works really well on defensive teams! So while Delibird is currently banned, you take away from this experience Gapdos and Knock-Off Milotic for your own teams. Again, Rezzo helped me a bunch with this team but you can credit the Gapdos to me. ;D

Worth noting is that Delibird is so ridiculously busted that even when doing subpar you can win rounds with it, I'll be submitting replays into the discord from the testing done on it--Please understand you don't want to vs this monster, I felt a little gross running it. Hopefully after the pmpl we can revisit Delibird proper and adjust him to a more manageable state. Till then, congrats birb, you got banned to Ubers.
Why doesn't your Blissey have any Physical Defense EVs?
 

Rezzo

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Pre-Contributor
Mediocre effort post about stuff I think about certain Mons following the PMPL:

:tyranitar: Tar's still one of the top Pokemon in the tier. There really wasn't much showcasing of DD + Shuca in the PL, but I think that's because a lot of matches happened to fall away or build away from relying only on Dugtrio to stop it. Sand is a good enabler and so is Pursuit yet still.

:celebi: BP change hurts it but not that much. People all tournament weren't preparing properly for Celebi (myself included). Giga Drain buff is great. There are a lot of new Pokemon that can abuse a free turn after Dugtrio being locked into HP Bug.

:flygon: It can DD now - DD sets don't die when holding Yache berry and this should be pretty abusable. Same goes for Salamence.

:snorlax: Has a fresh suit and tie thanks to Lovely Kiss in its arsenal. Forces a lot of awkward pivoting due to sleep; sometimes missing can be beneficial since it leaves the opponent's sleep absorber completely exposed. Was warm on Custap Berry initially but as Voyager has pointed out it's a bit of a "win more" item to be honest (i.e. it doesn't accelerate Snorlax's game progress unless you're already winning, and offers little to a Snorlax who's on the back foot).

:cloyster: Stat changes & Overcoat make it ridiculous. Thankfully Refresh & Rapid Spin are illegal in tandem with each other.

:milotic: Knock Off makes Milotic completely ridiculous.

:deoxys-speed: Was hot initially on the fast lad, but it's a bit of a jack of all trades. Offensive builds have been refined over time to just prefer Skarmory and Cloyster. Even balance builds much prefer those two while Roserade also offers more support than Deo.

:crabominable: Le Crabe. TSS balance stopper, 'rock resist' and even potential wallbreaker with CB. Pressures you in the teambuilder to consider Mixmence. Invalidates nearly every other Fighting type. Fur Coat makes it great, but Superpower makes it ridiculous.

:golurk: 4 attacks is a solid set that reverses the momentum of most Mons on opposing physical offence teams. Has a much worse matchup into Metagross as a trade-off. Defensive sets seem too fairweather in my experience, but there might still be a way to work them in.

:kleavor: Sand-immune Heracross. Which means, yeah, Salac sets turn it into a menace. Outspeeds Aero and uninvested Deoxys while still running Adamant. Oh - it also learns Reversal as well to mow down Steel types. Good endgame Pokemon.

:jellicent: It's pretty good but not the monster everybody seemed to think a few months ago. Speed investment with Taunt goes a long way. Loves Heal Bell + Spin support.

:ledian: Only me who showcased it in the PL, and naturally I misplayed to teach us nothing. Base 105 speed and immune to passive damage is ridiculous. Extremely easy to use - just plug numbers into the damage calculator and come in on the thresholds to land free damage. Obviously appreciates Spikes as a result of this. Psychic, Grass, Ice and Fire will hit most stuff decently hard.

:talonflame: A very boring Mon that gets the job done. Probably too well. Maybe somebody will listen to me about this at some point?

:roserade: Nah, the other spikers are better than Roserade. Offers nice role compression but struggles to actually make use of it due to the abundance of Dugtrio in the current meta. Natural Cure or Poison Point is a pretty unfortunate dilemma as it wants to both absorb sleep and also offer team support. Makes opposing Celebi better if you run it on your team.

:roselia: Probably a better Roserade purely due to the additional bulk. Worth exploring further.

:abomasnow: Has some nice matchups into the likes of water types and Zapdos, but it mainly exists to enable the monolith that is Glaceon. Existing in a rocks-less tier enables it to trade more effectively.

:illumise: P2's niche is invalidated. Can be pretty hard to handle outside of removing Dug and Mag due to how blazing fast it is. Treat it like an inferior Aerodactyl if you need somewhere to start with conceptualising Illumise.

:glaceon: lol

:regieleki: Truly abysmal.

Stuff I didn't use, but tested and liked:

:silvally: It was bugged for most of the PL so didn't get to explore Silvally unfortunately. Normal is respectable for SD + STAB Boom to cleave. Dark is a turboed Pursuit Tyranitar on a timer. Some other types seem appealing on paper I guess.

:lapras: Premier special wall with Thick Fat. Run Ice Beam and Roar. Clicks Ice Beam 16 times. Or more if you're running Talk. Choose your recovery method based on the rest of your team. Rest Talk with spin support, or Recover with Heal Bell support. Thunderbolt can be ran to beat Starmie. Needs to be paired with a reliable method of breaking past Skarmory & Gengar.

:raichu-alola: Makes me think of an offensively-oriented Gengar that doesn't spinblock. Very fun to use; Levitate allows you to gather chip damage across the course of a game without ever being at risk of being attacked back. Focus Punch punishes Tyranitar coming in to answer immediately. Volt Tackle hits a lot of stuff hard.

:dugtrio-alola: May as well take advantage of being able to trap Starmie with the Kanto Dugtrio. Steel typing should allow you to aggressively pivot into Blissey at least. Worth exploring - difficult to conceptualise in the small sample space of Hoenn Gaiden, but certainly has potential.

:zapdos-galar: Seems like a good lategame revenge killer. CB also hits really hard - didn't find a time to showcase it due to le crabe outclassing it in any scenario I could think of.

:alcremie: Another balance toppler. Didn't feel comfortable bringing this to any PL matches as it's quite bad into pretty much any other archetype. Doesn't die but doesn't accomplish much either. Magneton balance structures may appreciate this kind of teammate over Claydol.

:mawile: A bit like a physically oriented Blissey. Dirty amounts of utility (intimidate, twave, toxic, knock off, sand immune, poison immune) with respectable bulk. Knock Off means you beat every Skarm variant 1v1. Thunder Wave and Toxic limit the number of safe offensive pivots into Mawile.

:cryogonal: Eh. Funny Mon on paper but lives and dies by trying to freeze before the opponent tries to crit you. Just use Talonflame.

:lopunny: I don't dislike it, but due to its frailty it's pretty hard to justify use of. Especially with a certain crab-yeti being so powerful.

:stunfisk-galar: Protean is seriously overpowered down here in ADV. Seems like it can rotate its typing around with priority moves and cause some really problematic interactions for standard teams.

:parasect: Mainly couldn't be bothered to use Parasect. It stonewalls Swampert and Crocune and can be a real nuisance for opposing weatherless teams to get past. Just hope your opponent doesn't bring a mixed attacker as it'll never come onto the field when it needs to.

:dragonite: New toy syndrome means it was unappealing to get around to this. Salamence still probably outclasses it in a pure offensive role, but by God, Dragonite now learns every move and then some.

:froslass: Should be great as a lead on offensive teams. Still could be great in the back on slightly slower structures thanks to the double immunity.

:articuno-galar: It has just enough bulk to pull off some interesting stuff but it's too dependent on not being crit to consistently work. There's likely a sub-archetype which appreciates it.

:cursola: Movepool is really janky but it can probably pull off some real annoyance just due to how much potential versatility it offers.

:eelektross: Still not fully sold just because the niche is unclear, but I think with paralysis support it might work. Those mixed attacking stats are nasty, but I'd rather just use Salamence or Charizard.

:slowbro: :slowking: :slowbro-galar: :slowking-galar: There's something potentially here with the extra bulk and Slack Off.

:gliscor: Fast Knock Off, STAB EQ, Taunt, spike immune and sand immune. Has a lot going for it and I made some teams that it fits decently well on. But it's pretty anti-synergistic with a lot of the best Pokemon in the tier sadly and doesn't really fully wall anything of note.

:leafeon: Bulky and fast and has Wish and Aromatherapy. Passive as all heck, but it likely pressures balance archetypes quite well if paired with something that can really take advantage of the tools Leafeon offers.

:skuntank: Get it in at the right time and you'll get a kill. If Skuntank has a check, there is a move / spread / play that will give you the upper hand. Dug weakness? Run Sucker Punch. Gengar weakness? Pursuit. Steel type? Fire Blast. Bulky Water? Explosion. Blissey? Taunt + Slack Off. ????, Tail Glow.

:meowth-galar: Perrserker heads to the local Argentinian steakhouse in this metagame. CB Meteor Mash deals about 50% minimum to everything in the game. Very slow and vulnerable to trapping, though.

:uxie: just ew

:dusknoir: jfc this thing just doesn't die. Trades hits with one thing and one thing only. Will o wisp means that it can pretty easily box the opponent's options down to something specific. Didn't test it, but just peeking at Dusknoir's toolset is enough to make me go 'ew'

:mismagius: pretty sure this can cheese a few KOs

:sableye: Magic Guard Recover Knock Off shenanigans = balance upper-hand like various other new options

Anything not mentioned is probably dug weak and/or gets peltered by passive damage or is directly outclassed by something else.
 

Rezzo

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Pre-Contributor
HOENN GAIDEN UPDATE

IceRezzoFrog here with an update list aimed at balancing out the tier. But first??? Let's discuss the survey results!

-----

The survey reached a total of 12 participants, and the questions were responded to as follows:

Question 1: On a scale of 1 through 10 what would you rate as your enjoyment of the metagame. (Do you enjoy playing it)

Average Score: 8/10

Not much to say here, seems like most people are enjoying themselves. The lower bound of ratings was 7 with the upper bound being 10 thanks to Hoenn Gaiden lover Rezzo.

Question 2: On a scale of 1 through 10 what would you rate as the competitiveness of the tier. (Do you find it competitive)

Average Score: 7.33/10

Results ranged from satisfied to the level of competitiveness (5/10 being the lower bound) to aboslute astonishment (a single rating of 10/10!). This is promising - I personally believe we can do better but the perception of balance in Hoenn Gaiden seems to be in a good place.

Question 3: Which statement would you consider most accurately describes how you feel about the damage resist berries as whole.

Damage resist berries are entirely fine - 2
Damage resist berries are mostly fine but we should ban so - 3
Damage resist berries are very broken and we should ban them - 2
Damage resist berries are entirely broken and should be removed - 1
Damage resist berries need further research - 4


Opinion is pretty split here. A couple of survey participants interestingly commented that the berries, for the exact same reasoning but dressed in different phrasing, should stay/be removed as their conclusions. Weighing up on this as well as the voting direction, the damage resist berries will be under suspect testing in due course. More on this to come soon.

Question 4: How should we nerf Crabominable?

Remove Superpower - 9
Remove Fur Coat - 1
We shouldn't nerf it - 2

A pretty strong taste for removing Superpower seems to be the response here. It seems like a potential oversight that Superpower was not initially removed back some time ago when movepools were cleaned up, and while the move isn't quite overcentralising on le crabbe, at least in my opinion, a tone-down here might make sense. Therefore, Crabominable will be losing Superpower from its moveset.

Question 5: As it currently is, Talonflame is by far the best spinner eclipsing many Pokemon that should be viable, should it lose its spinning niche, or should it lose its reliable recovery?

Remove Rapid Spin - 5
Remove Soft-Boiled - 3
We shouldn't nerf it - 4


Relatively split opinion once more. I honestly am not convinced we have the data or the results (or even the metagame development!) to make an informed decision on this. I did vote to remove Softboiled, but I can't see any way to make an informed decision with these results combined with the usage stats. There is no majority vote here, so Talonflame will not receive any changes for the time being.

Question 6: What should Skuntank be focused on?

Defensive sets with slack off - 8
Offensive sets with tail glow - 4

Apologies for the presentation of this question. Skuntank has been discovered by the council to posess a lot of traits that are honestly problematic for the tier. It has a vast array of utility options which enable it to narrow down potential checks. A choice of Neutralizing Gas or Sucker Punch can be made to handle Dugtrio trapping. Neutralizing Gas also facilitates other strategies which have not seen much exploration, such as denying Tyranitar's Sand Stream. It also receives a plethora of options, such as Tail Glow, Knock Off, Slack Off, Pursuit, Explosion, Memento, Taunt, Roar, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Roar and Sucker Punch to name a few, enabling it to do an extremely high number of tasks at any given time.

Hilariously, none of that matters though; I actually found out while tidying up that Skuntank arbitrarily gained Neutralizing Gas and Tail Glow with no community input. It will be losing these for the time being, with possible revisions in the future.

Skuntank will lose Neutralizing Gas and Tail Glow.

Question 7: Which iconic Hoenn Gaiden Pokemon should we focus on bringing back to an OU level?

Girafrig - 2
Delibird - 4
Cramorant - 1
Ledian - 3
Hitmonlee - 1
N/A - 1
Uxie - Shitrock enjoyer


These will be revisited as separate pieces, however the three most popular choices here will be handled in the next update! Girafarig, Delibird and Ledian will be tweaked. Future slates will be put forth to handle these in finer detail in the near future.

Question 8: What should we do with all of the introduced links? (Regional forms & Evolutions, Cross-gen Evolutions)

This was an open ended question, however a majority of people who answered (while understanding what was being referred to) mentioned that they should be removed from the tier.

Apologies to anyone who didn't understand the question as a handful of people didn't seem to understand what this was referrring to. Between slates 11 and 12, as well as slates 12 and 13, there were arbitrary changes introduced to the tier with no community input. The list of changes is bloody massive. A subsection of these changes included adding Sinnoh evolutions to the tier as well as regional formes.

These evolutions and formes are to be gradually reintroduced back into Hoenn Gaiden. However, since this change is rather colossal, we will not be removing everything in one go. Instead, the council has decided that we will remove certain Pokemon based on critera which I explore later in this post. Some of these Pokemon being removed will be reintroduced as part of a later slate to fit into Hoenn Gaiden more comfortably.

The vast majority of arbitrary balance changes are to be reverted. This completely entails all arbitrary base stat total modifications, which, while displayed in the battle simulator, do not transfer into the damage calculator, and have the potential to result in some really dodgy-looking matches where players lose to a damage roll they thought would be impossible. Unlikely scenario, yes, but I'd much much much prefer we avoid this kind of thing from ever occuring.

Question 9: There are lots and lots of pokemon, that are struggling for an identity in the mod. Which pokemon are you most interested in reworking?

This was another open-ended question with a lot of varying answers. Among those named are Ambipom, Golisopod, Incineroar, Arcanine-Hisui, Moltres-Galar, Sableye, Ledian, Cramorant, Grimmsnarl, Stunfisk-Galar, Weavile, Regieleki, Mawile, Magmortar... basically a lot of stuff. This will not be handled specifically within this update, but we appreciate the feedback.

Question 10: Are there any other Pokemon you would like to specifically address, and do you have any opinions on said pokemon?

Again, this wasn't intended to be handled within this update but the feedback is appreciated. The following pieces were mentioned:

"Milotic [should be addressed]"
"Adding Recover to Kecleon and Magcargo [should be a harmless revision]"
"Raikou should not have Tail Glow. [Dragon Dance] Flygon with Lunge [might need addressing]"
"Raikou is incredibly overwhelming when enabled correctly"

As an immediate addressing, Raikou will lose Tail Glow. This was an arbitrary change (that had in fact once entered a slate to receive zero votes...) that had snuck its way into the mod regardless.

Milotic will lose Knock Off. This has been on the council's plate since the PMPL and is a sound adjustment to propose (as it was an arbitrary addition to Hoenn Gaiden).

Recover(y moves) has been a touchy subject in Hoenn Gaiden; much additions were initially given this move and it ended up shifting the metagame towards Will-o-wisp + Recover + Pursuit spam in attempt to gain an advantage. I don't think adding Recover to these Pokemon would put the tier at risk of entering this era once again, however I can't see any info pointing directly to Kecleon or Magcargo losing these moves during any stage of this mod's development, and as a result we won't be making this change for the time being (unless I am to be corrected).

Flygon will, for the time being, not receive any special treatment. It does however have a huge amount of potency on Dragon Dance spam teams, and if in the future Flygon shows itself to be a key part in dominating the tier among such structures, we will figure out how to handle Flygon.

Okay that's it! Thanks to anyone who filled out the survey. Me and the council are always looking for feedback on Hoenn Gaiden and would love to hear your thoughts outside of this opportunity on how to keep things running, so please do DM me here or on Discord if you ever want to discuss anything.

And now...

-----

THE CHANGES!
:arbok:
- BST improvement
Old: 80 HP / 95 Atk / 90 Def / 85 SpA / 90 SpD / 80 Spe
New: 115 HP / 100 Atk / 90 Def / 70 SpA / 90 SpD / 55 Spe

:crabominable:
- Removed Superpower.

:delibird:
- Unbanned from Ubers.
- Replaced the ability Magic Guard with Vital Spirit.
- Removed Milk Drink, Surf, Taunt, Low Kick, Baton Pass.
- Rapid Spin and Spikes are now illegal on the same set (oversight - should have always been the case since Spikes are an NYPC event move while Rapid Spin is an Egg move).

:dusclops:
- Replaced the ability Pressure with Sand Veil*.

:girafarig:
- BST improvement

Old: 82 HP / 93 Atk / 82 Def / 93 SpA / 82 SpD / 98 Spe

New: 82 HP / 113 Atk / 102 Def / 53 SpA / 82 SpD / 98 Spe

:ledian:
- Replaced the ability Magic Guard with Levitate.

:milotic:
- Removed Knock Off.

:moltres-galar:
- Added Fiery Wrath, Foul Play, Sucker Punch.

:raikou:
- Removed Tail Glow.

:roselia:
- Replaced the ability Poison Point with Overcoat (as it was mistakenly removed for Cloud Nine).

:skuntank:
- Removed Tail Glow.
- Replaced the ability Neutralizing Gas with Overcoat.

:tropius:
- BST improvement

Old: 99 HP / 90 Atk / 83 Def / 87 SpA / 76 SpD / 76 Spe

New: 100 HP / 70 Atk / 113 Def / 97 SpA / 75 SpD / 66 Spe

-----

The following Pokemon are being removed:

- Electivire, Rhyperior, Sneasler, Ursaluna
- Ambipom, Arcanine-Hisui, Corsola-Galar, Cursola, Dusknoir*, Exeggutor-Alola, Froslass, Gallade, Honchkrow, Lickilicky, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Muk-Alola, Ninetales-Alola, Overqwil, Persian-Alola, Porygon-Z, Probopass, Rapidash-Galar, Raticate-Alola, Sandslash-Alola, Togekiss, Weavile, Wyrdeer, Yanmega

"Hold on... why???"

This really wasn't an easy decision to make -- we spent a lot of time iffing and umming about how to handle the 'bloat' that Hoenn Gaiden currently has. The reasoning behind this decision-making is the following:
- None of these Mons were voted into the mod.
- All of these Mons see extremely little to no usage.
- Some of these Mons in overlap with OU-viable Mons in an intrusive way.
- Some of these Mons overlap with winning slates.
*Dusknoir's traits specifically are being merged into Dusclops.

There are also some moves, abilities and even typings that were arbitrarily added that currently aren't being utilised or explored, they're being handled as follows:
:aggron:
- Reverted to Steel/Rock type.

:bellossom:
- Removed Aromatherapy.
- Removed ability Natural Cure.

:azumarill:
- Reverted to Water type.

:camerupt:
- Removed Slack Off.

:dragonite:
- Removed Softboiled.

:politoed:
- Removed Growth.

:poliwrath:
- Removed Growth.

:seaking:
- Replaced ability Volt Absorb with Swift Swim.
- Removed Swords Dance.

:venusaur:
- Removed ability Suction Cups.

So think of this as a spring cleaning effort if you will. There are plans to hold slates to reintroduce some of these Mons and give them purpose in Hoenn Gaiden, so don't fret as they are not all leaving the mod forever.

There are also some arbitrary base stat changes that were done to uplift certain Mons, these will also be reverted (I'm not listing them here at the list is pretty large [just like this post at this stage!] - winning slates are not being adapted).

There are also more Pokemon that will receive buffs in the future. We are on a rather tight schedule this week to update this mod in lieu of an upcoming tournament (look out for a post shortly following this one!) and don't have the time nor the resources to adjust too many buffs at once, as these take a bit more effort to work out as the data isn't there (when you compare to something overpowered which... well... as you can imagine, plenty of data and examples to follow and inspect).

This post has taken me a good while to put together, but I've just about covered everything that we need to. These changes will go live sometime between tomorrow and Sunday, please bear in mind that there might be minute details that I have missed out in regards to these changes and I'm going to "reserve the right" to edit this post to reflect anything that needs to be updated beyond this period in-line with what's been mentioned above.

See ya!
 
Last edited:

Rezzo

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Pre-Contributor
Update Part 2

IceRezzoFrog back again with more updates!

Jimothy Cool kindly hosted a Hoenn Gaiden tournament, Swiss elimination style over on our Discord server for the past few weeks, giving us a lot of match data to work with. There's currently a lot of stuff in the works - I'm going to list them all here briefly to give you an idea of what's going on, as without it things might be a little hard to follow. Here's the rundown in six parts:

I. Buffs to specific HG Pokemon
II. Movepool tidy-ups for the new additions
III. Slates 14 and 15
IV. Mod Clauses
V. Viability rankings, tiering process and new teambuilder
VI. Upcoming tournament(s)

Keep in mind that none of the above proposals will go live into the mod until after the finals match of the JimCool Hoenn Gaiden tournament that is currently in progress. We're just giving a cheeky sneak preview into what's about to happen for the next few weeks. There will not be an update of similar scope to this again (at least for a very long time):

I: Buffs to specific Hoenn Gaiden Pokemon

The first part of this update attempts to uplift specific Pokemon added to Hoenn Gaiden that are evidently lacking any special flair to make them usable in the tier. There are also updates to movepools to be implemented to make these Pokemon feel more 'gen-3-like'.

Incoming buffs are as follows:
:cramorant:
- BST reverted to original slate proposal:
80 HP / 55 Atk / 75 Def / 85 SpA / 135 SpD / 85 Spe

[Cramorant is currently unseen in Hoenn Gaiden - it lost a lot of utility when previously nerfed and this seems to have been a massively reactive change to it, pushing it far into unviability]

:Regieleki:
- Replaced ability Clear Body with Limber.
- Removed Bounce, Earthquake, Foul Play, Taunt, Wrap.
- Added Aerial Ace, Baton Pass, Charge, Double Edge, Flash, Foresight, Frustration, Imprison, Magic Coat, Metal Sound, Rain Dance, Return, Safeguard, Sandstorm, Sunny Day, Superpower, Swagger

[Regieleki was a rather unfocused Pokemon. It saw usage despite having no significant traits, however the addition of Limber, Baton Pass and more utility moves should hopefully enable it into being a more considered option]

:regidrago:
- Removed Dragon Dance, Reversal.
- Added Strength, Rock Smash, Superpower, Seismic Toss, Focus Punch, Thunder Wave, Mimic, Secret Power, Dynamicpunch, Swagger, Rollout, Mega Punch, Mega Kick, Sandstorm, Aerial Ace, Double Team, Safeguard, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Rock Tomb, Ice Punch, Mud Slap, Body Slam, Double Edge, Psych Up, Curse, Zap Cannon, Lock-on, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Return, Frustration, Shock Wave, Counter

[Regidraco has a similar issue to Regieleki in that it is unfocused. I specifically decided to gen-3-ify it by mimicking the movepool patterns of the other Regis]

:tangrowth:
Added Aerial Ace, Ancient Power, Block, Brick Break, Earthquake, Rock Tomb, Rock Slide, Shock Wave, Strength

[Tangrowth's movepool was unfinished, this has simply been updated to look similar to its gen 4 movepool]

:uxie:
- Removed Signal Beam, Role Play, Recycle, Trick, Baton Pass, Tri Attack
- Added Wish

[Uxie still remains unfocused after it was nerfed. We have decided to add Wish to its movepool and attempt to give it space as a potential wishpasser. The movepool removals are a tidy-up as it still has residual traits of its gen 8 movepool. Uxie still also learns Heal Bell and has access to Levitate]

II: Tidy-ups

Below is a rather large list of tidy-ups that I'm pushing to the battle sim to help out certain Pokemon's movepools, 'gen-3-ify' them, just generally make them feel a bit more like they're in the right place at the right time. Unfortunately some stuff which has become staple to the Hoenn Gaiden metagame is entangled with this list; anything in this category will not be removed from the mod. Take Jellicent's Will-o-wisp; Will-o-wisp is logically unobtainable on Jellicent in gen 3, however, as an example of an exception to the rule, because it has become such a staple addition to the tier, we will not be changing its learnset to reflect this.

This specific list of changes is not meant to interfere with anyone's teams, so please notify me if any of your teams are non-functional after this update. There are a handful of exceptions to this, but I will highlight them in the changelist denoted with an asterisk *. Changes are as follows:
:abomasnow:
- Removed Block, Headbutt, Outrage, Role Play.
- Added Dynamicpunch, Mimic.

:alcremie:
- Removed Magical Leaf, Imprison.
- Added Dream Eater, Flash, Mimic, Mud Slap, Psych Up, Secret Power, Seismic Toss, Swift, Swagger.

:articuno-galar:
- Added Ancientpower.

:chesnaught:
- Removed Iron Defense, Low Kick, Super Fang, Helping Hand, Block, Pain Split, Superpower*.
- Added Mimic, Mud Slap, Counter, Seismic Toss, Dynamicpunch, Mega Punch, Mega Kick.
* Superpower is being forcibly removed from Chesnaught. Competitively, you are expected to choose between Brick Break, Focus Punch or possibly even Dynamic Punch.

:crabominable:
- Added Body Slam, Counter, Double Edge, Mimic, Mud Slap, Secret Power, Seismic toss, Strength, Water Pulse.

:cramorant:*
- Removed Reversal, Baton Pass.
- Added Psych Up, Mud Slap, Sky Attack, Water Pulse, Mimic, Return, Frustration.
* The Council are vetoing Double Team and Swagger from Cramorant's movepool.

:dracovish:
- Removed Leech Life, Rock Blast, Low Kick.
- Added Double Edge, Frustration, Mimic, Mud Slap, Return, Secret Power, Water Pulse.

:dragalge:
- Removed Bounce.
- Added Double Edge, Mimic, Mud Slap, Swagger, Swift.

:diglett: :dugtrio:
- Added Sucker Punch.

:diglett-alola: :dugtrio-alola:
-
Removed Headbutt, Reversal*.
- Added Tri Attack, Sand Tomb, Sucker Punch, Hyper Beam.
* Reversal is being forcibly removed from Diglett-Alola and Dugtrio-Alola to merge the movepool with standard Diglett and Dugtrio's moveset.

:electrode-hisui:
- Removed Headbutt, Refresh.
- Added Ice Ball, Solarbeam.

:golem-alola:
- Removed Bide, Nature Power.
- Added Spark, Mega Punch, Hyper Beam.

:golisopod:
- Removed Endeavor, False Swipe, Iron Defense, Pain Split, Spite.
- Added Double Edge, Mimic, Mud Slap, Rollout, Secret Power, Seismic Toss, Strength.

:golurk:

- Removed Block, Helping Hand, Low Kick, Trick.
-
Added Body Slam, Counter, Double Edge, Nightmare, Mimic, Shock Wave, Pound, Sandstorm, Seismic Toss.

:grimmsnarl:
- Removed Leech Life, Low Kick, Superpower*, Trick, Uproar.
- Added Beat Up, Counter, Double Edge, Dynamicpunch, Faint Attack, Flash, Flatter, Focus Punch, Frustration, Nightmare, Mimic, Mud Slap, Return, Rock Smash, Secret Power, Seismic Toss, Strength, Toxic.
* Superpower is being forcibly removed from Grimmsnarl. Competitively, you are expected to choose between Brick Break, Focus Punch or possibly even Dynamic Punch.

:guzzlord:
- Removed Heat Wave, Iron Defense, Outrage.
- Added Body Slam, Counter, Double Edge, Mimic, Mud Slap, Secret Power, Seismic Toss, Swift, Torment.

:incineroar:
- Removed Bind, Endeavor, Fake Out, Growth, Heat Wave, Leech Life, Pay Day, Reversal.
- Added Counter, Cut, Darkest Lariat, Double Edge, Dynamicpunch, Mimic, Mud Slap, Rock Smash, Secret Power, Seismic Toss, Strength.

:jellicent:
- Removed Imprison, Mist, Poison Sting, Trick.
- Added Flash, Hydro Pump, Nightmare, Sludge Bomb, Water Pulse.

:kleavor:
- Added Calm Mind, Rock Tomb, Sandstorm.

:krookodile:
- Removed Block, Low Kick, Spite.
- Added Dynamicpunch, Fury Cutter, Mimic, Secret Power, Seismic Toss.

:lopunny:
- Removed Covet, Double Kick, Headbutt, Helping Hand, Reversal.
-
Added Circle Throw, Double Edge, Dynamicpunch, Mimic, Seismic Toss.

:magmortar:
- Added Dynamic Punch, Rock Tomb, Solarbeam, Taunt.

:marowak-alola:
-
Removed Endeavor.

:mismagius:
- Added Icy Wind, Magical Leaf, Sucker Punch.

:moltres-galar:
- Removed Imprison.
- Added Gust, Leer.

:mr-rime:
- Removed Covet, Headbutt, Signal Beam, Trick, Uproar.

:obstagoon:
- Lost ability Gluttony (leaving sole ability Guts).
- Added Counter, Dynamicpunch, Fury Swipes, Hyper Beam, Lick, Metronome, Roar, Seismic Toss, Slash, Strength, Taunt.

:perrserker:
- Changed ability Limber to Battle Armor.
- Removed Baton Pass, Crunch, Headbutt.
- Added Aerial Ace, Covet, Curse, Flash, Icy Wind, Hyper Beam, Roar, Shock Wave, Torment, Water Pulse.

:pincurchin:
- Removed Reversal, Muddy Water.
- Added Double Edge, Flash, Frustration, Mimic, Return, Secret Power, Swagger, Swift, Water Pulse.

:roselia:
- Removed Sleep Powder.

:roserade:
- Base HP stat (50) reverted (to 60).
- Removed Sleep Powder.

:silvally:
- Removed Heat Wave, Signal Beam*.
-
Added Mimic, Secret Power.
* Signal Beam is being forcibly removed from Silvally. Competitively, you are expected to use Hidden Power [Bug] in its place as Bug-type coverage.

:sirfetchd:
- Removed Feather Dance, Mirror Move, Wish, Yawn.
- Added Dynamicpunch, Knock Off, Leaf Blade, Rock Smash, Sky Attack, Slam, Strength.
:stunfisk:
- Replaced ability Sand Veil with Limber.
- Removed Uproar, Endeavor.
- Added Double Edge, Mimic, Secret Power, Swift, Water Pulse.

:stunfisk-galar:
- Lost ability Sand Veil (leaving Protean as the sole ability).
- Removed Uproar, Endeavor.
- Added Double Edge, Mimic, Secret Power, Swift, Water Pulse.

:skuntank:
- Removed Fire Spin.
- Added Body Slam, Mimic, Selfdestruct, Torment.

:tangela:
- Added Ancientpower.

:toxicroak:
- Removed Role Play, Bounce, Headbutt.
- Added Mimic, Hyper Beam.

:weezing-galar:
- Removed Hydro Pump, Surf.
- Added Muddy Water.

:zapdos-galar:
- Removed Bounce.
-
Added Ancientpower, Body Slam, Fly, Strength.

:zarude:
-
Added Cut, Double Edge, Endure, Fury Cutter, Mimic, Mud Slap, Psych Up, Rock Smash, Seismic Toss, Strength.

III: Slates 14 & 15

We have two new slates that we're looking forward to putting out to the newly developed playerbase. The slates scheduled are as follows:

Slate 14: Reintroduction Slate in two parts: "Reworked, Reintroduced", and "Save Ledian!" - commencing weekend of 15 + 16 October
Slate 15: "Old Gen, New Member" - commencing weekend of 22 + 23 October

Slate 14, as the title suggests, is going to be focused on reintroducing the recently-removed regional formes and evolutions that were added to Hoenn Gaiden while being lost without aim or focus. The slate will also give the option for submitters to submit a single defining change to one of these Pokemon to allow them to fit into Hoenn Gaiden a little more comfortably. Bear in mind; regional evolutions will always inherit their species line's movepool, while regional formes are not limited to this.

Explained simply, we will be voting on the following Pokemon to be added back into Hoenn Gaiden:

Code:
Raticate-Alola
Sandslash-Alola
Ninetales-Alola
Persian-Alola
Muk-Alola
Exeggutor-Alola

Rapidash-Galar
Corsola-Galar

Arcanine-Hisui
Typhlosion-Hisui (NEW!)
Qwilfish-Hisui
Sneasel-Hisui

Roserade*
Ambipom
Honchkrow
Weavile
Magnezone
Lickilicky
Rhyperior
Electivire
Togekiss
Yanmega
Mamoswine
Porygon-Z
Gallade
Probopass
Dusknoir
Froslass

Cursola

Wyrdeer
Ursaluna
Sneasler
Overqwil

More details to come, but obviously some of these come tied with a BIG asterisk on how they will be added to the mod as they were once banned from the tier. Roserade is currently on the cutting line also, after discussions with the council, because of its overlap with Roselia as things stand. That does indeed mean we'll be voting for Roserade's continued existence alongside other stuff here.

:rs/ledian:
Oh, and part 2! The council has decided to hand over the Ledian buffs back to the community. There's high demand to see this Pokemon working in Hoenn Gaiden, and after taking a bit of a look at it myself, admittedly I think it's fair that this is passed back to those who want to see it reworked into a better Pokemon to take the reigns themselves and steer the direction of this. A template and some light direction will be provided alongside.

Then for Slate 15, this will be the first time that a new Pokemon has been added to Hoenn Gaiden for an entire year. Me personally, I'm quite looking forward to this slate as I have had ideas brewing this entire time without a single chance to ever submit them, and I'm sure others have too! It will be a rather open-ended slate with creative freedom being left to the submitters to try and fill in a spot in the metagame as we see fit - there's been quite a number of games played in this tier now and a much more concrete sight upon its strengths and weaknesses are apparent. Again, more details to be announced on the actual beginning of the slate, but there's your taster for the next step in progression of Hoenn Gaiden.

IV: Mod Clauses

Two new minor mod clauses are being implemented into Hoenn Gaiden. Technically one of them already exists but has never been elaborated, that being the Baton Pass Mod. They are as follows:

Freeze Clause Mod:
A player cannot freeze two of their opponent's Pokémon at the same time. All effects of moves that would cause freeze are prevented from taking effect while Freeze Clause is active.

Baton Pass Mod:
The move Baton Pass is renamed to Baton Pass Gaiden. Any Pokemon with postitive stat boosts will have their positive stat boosts reset upon selecting the move Baton Pass Gaiden. Negative stat boosts are not reset and are still passed to the selected Pokemon. All other move effects that are passable in Gen 3 remain passable, with the exception of Mean Look, Block & Spider Web.

V: VR Compendium

Hoenn Gaiden needs your help! We will soon be using a viability-based teambuilder that takes community input to rank our beloved Hoenn Gaiden Pokemon, all the way up in S rank to the depths of E rank. This will be a decide on how people see and utilise the teambuilder going forward, but it needs data and rankings. Soon we'll be sending out a Tiermaker chart to tournament players to gather this information, and it'd be much appreciated if you could fill this out to the best of your ability to help with the development of Hoenn Gaiden.

This'll be properly announced soon after this post, so keep tuned and feel free to discuss stuff about this topic over on the Hoenn Gaiden Discord.

VI: Future Tournament(s)

Fellow council members are planning tournaments to follow soon (possibly even a few weeks from now!) in Hoenn Gaiden. It'll be a good chance to explore some of the changes, get familiarised with the metagame shake-ups, and generally just have fun with the tier really. More to come on this soon too, but just thought I'd drop a tiny teaser on the progress moving forward.

That's it for now, good luck to the remaining tournament competitors, I'll be right back to announce the VR tiering process and to chase you all for your rankings. Cya~
 
V: VR Compendium

Hoenn Gaiden needs your help! We will soon be using a viability-based teambuilder that takes community input to rank our beloved Hoenn Gaiden Pokemon, all the way up in S rank to the depths of E rank. This will be a decide on how people see and utilise the teambuilder going forward, but it needs data and rankings. Soon we'll be sending out a Tiermaker chart to tournament players to gather this information, and it'd be much appreciated if you could fill this out to the best of your ability to help with the development of Hoenn Gaiden.

This'll be properly announced s--
The time is now!

----> https://tiermaker.com/create/hoenn-gaiden-ou-tier-ranking-1347403 <----

Fellow Hoenn Gaiden players, here is the Tiermaker chart in question, we need you to create your HG Tier's and to send them in to the council!

Just dm Rezzo or Lord Zorz on discord with your completed tier list so we can compile together a more functional and accurate team builder for all! This is a huge step forward for HG and I'm eager to continue talking about some of y'alls more spicy takes on the metagame...


After this and the tournament, we should be ready to start the next slate!

facts.png


Be sure to place pokemon you're not sure about in the "Unsure" category! We need this to be as accurate as possible.
 

Rezzo

(EVIOLITE COMPATIBLE)
is a Pre-Contributor
Slate 14: Reintroductions & Reworks
Hello, fellow Hoenn Gaideners. It's time for our first slate of 2022. The slate 14 submission process is as follows:
  • Pick up to FOUR Pokemon from the Reintroduction Roster to be readded into Hoenn Gaiden. Rank them from your most-preferred to least-preferred Pokemon.
  • Redesign up to ONE Pokemon, from either the Reintroduction Roster OR the Rework Roster to be added to Hoenn Gaiden.
  • Submit your rework of Ledian.
You can take part in as many components of this slate as you please. Even if it's just to vote on one Pokemon to be readded into Hoenn Gaiden.

Say hello to the Reintroduction Roster!

:bw/ambipom: :bw/honchkrow: :bw/weavile: :bw/lickilicky: :bw/togekiss: :bw/yanmega: :bw/mamoswine: :bw/gallade: :bw/probopass: :bw/froslass:

:sm/raticate-alola: :sm/sandslash-alola: :sm/ninetales-alola: :sm/persian-alola: :sm/muk-alola: :sm/exeggutor-alola:

:ss/rapidash-galar: :ss/corsola-galar:

(Arcanine-Hisui, Typhlosion-Hisui, Qwilfish-Hisui, Sneasel-Hisui also but you'll have to imagine their sprites)

ALSO...

:dp/roserade:

Roserade is on the deportation line and requires voting to be reintroduced to Hoenn Gaiden. This is due to the role overlap interference it causes with Roselia. Sorry Roserade!

Say hello to the Rework Roster!

:bw/magnezone: :bw/rhyperior: :bw/electivire: :bw/porygon-z: :bw/dusknoir:

:ss/cursola:

(Ursaluna, Overqwil, Wyrdeer, Sneasler)

Reintroduction Vote:
1. Ambipom
2. Honchkrow
3. Weavile
4. Lickilicky

Rework Submission:

:sm/exeggutor-alola:
Name: Exeggutor-Alola
New Typing: [None] or [Grass / Fire]
New BST: [None] or 100 / 100 / 95 / 125 / 75 / 35 (colour-coding with exact tally changes optional but preferred)
New Abilities: [None if abilities exist in HG] or [Frisk changed to Own Tempo, Harvest removed] or [Frisk changed to Own Tempo, Harvest changed to Synchronize]
Removed Moves: [None] or [Outrage, Superpower, etc]

New Moves: [None] or [Fire Blast, Overheat, etc.]

(Justification, flavour etc. to all go here)

And finally... say hello to Ledian!

:rs/ledian: :dp/ledian: :bw/ledian:
You're welcome to submit pretty much whatever you want in place of current Ledian, while we the council shall determine what we think of it in terms of balance as we go. Please make yourself familiar with Ledian's current movepool - this mod aims to be a more additive process rather than overhaul process, so remove moves as minimally as required for when you're balancing Ledian.

Ledian's base stats, typing, abilities and movepool

Reintroduction voting template:
Code:
Reintroduction votes:
1.
2.
3.
4.
Rework submission template:
Code:
Name:
New Typing:
New BST:
New Abilities:
Removed Moves:
New Moves:
Description:
Ledian Submission Template:
Code:
New Typing:
New BST:
New Abilities:
Removed Moves:
New Moves:
Description:
These submission aspects are pre-vetoed:
Abilities: Magic Guard, Wonder Guard, Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Magnet Pull, Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Drizzle, Drought, Desolate Land.
Moves: Tail Glow, Psycho Boost, Spikes.
Stats: Base Attack or Special Attack must be less than or equal to 135.

Other things to note: we will be strict on the justification of the following moves, as they have a significant chance to warp the tier:
Superpower, Will-o-wisp, Knock Off, Recover (and similar)

There are of course exceptions to the above, such as Pokemon who ordinarily get those moves ('naturally' being the key word here), so please message me or another council member if you want to check something!

To summarise, for this slate we are voting on a selection Pokemon to come back to Hoenn Gaiden, with one lucky star among them receiving a slated change. Ledian is also receiving a slated change as per community request. Deadline and vote commencing for the reworks is Friday, 21st October.

Good luck, have fun, and collaborate some mighty subs!

Edit: footnote, I forgot to mention that any reintroduced Pokemon with no slated changes will be subject to an ability vote next week if they don't have any gen 3 abilities. Just to note :blobuwu:
 
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