/challenge USERNAME, gen2nintendocup2000 @@@ ! Nintendo Cup 2000 Move Legality
using this command lets you play that version of NC2000
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Resource GSC Simple Question, Simple Answer Thread
- Thread starter FriendOfMrGolem120
- Start date
using this command lets you play that version of NC2000
Has anyone ever brought a Rollout Snorlax to a match? How did it go? Theorycrafting it actually shouldn't be terrible, you hit some interesting damage thresholds and there aren't a ton of Rock resists in the tier. Curse Snorlax can also just slot it in over Earthquake or Thunder, etc without shooting itself in the foot too badly. Would wonder if anyone would bring it to a high stakes match
Diophantine
Banned deucer.
In order to use Rapid Spin Golem, you must prove that you were in New York City 21 years ago. I strongly propose this rule as it makes the game more faithful to cartridge play.
Yes, can't remember exactly but I think Fear (correct me if I'm wrong) used it to last-mon Lax sweep a stall team as it beats Curse Skarmory. It pulled it off. The only problem is that you pretty much have to play with 3 moveslot Lax for the rest of the game. This isn't too much of a problem in the right circumstances though.
Hi, everyone. First post here, and I’ve just started to really get into competitive Pokémon over the past month or so, starting with GSC because it’s my favorite gen.
Anyway, has anyone experimented with running Hidden Power Grass on OU Zapdos? While Quagsire isn’t the most common mon in the tier, it shows up every once in awhile, and HP Grass seems like a quick solution to it (80.2-94.5%). It also deals just as much damage to Rhydon and Golem as HP water, and could even be useful for getting some decent damage off on the occasional Cloyster (61.7-72.6%) that wants to stay in on Zapdos instead of switching to a mon that could better tank a Thunder/Thunderbolt, especially if that Cloyster is in OHKO range. The only downsides seem to be losing some bulk (which is understandably somewhat of a concern) and not being able to hit Steelix for super-effective damage, as could be accomplished with HP water.
Anyway, has anyone experimented with running Hidden Power Grass on OU Zapdos? While Quagsire isn’t the most common mon in the tier, it shows up every once in awhile, and HP Grass seems like a quick solution to it (80.2-94.5%). It also deals just as much damage to Rhydon and Golem as HP water, and could even be useful for getting some decent damage off on the occasional Cloyster (61.7-72.6%) that wants to stay in on Zapdos instead of switching to a mon that could better tank a Thunder/Thunderbolt, especially if that Cloyster is in OHKO range. The only downsides seem to be losing some bulk (which is understandably somewhat of a concern) and not being able to hit Steelix for super-effective damage, as could be accomplished with HP water.
Hi, glad to see you are enjoying GSC.
I have occasionally run HP Grass instead of HP Ice/Water on Zapdos and have found it to be ineffective. The fundamental reason is that it brings too much drawback for too little/infrequent benefit.
HP Water has a viable niche over HP Ice, but the reduced bulk and worse matchup against Sleep Talk HP Ice Zapdos encourage most HP Water Zapdos into a more offensive role with less defensive utility. This typically means running a non-Sleep Talk Zapdos set (frequently Whirlwind) and/or running it alongside Raikou.
HP Grass forces Zapdos into a similar role, but with more severe drawbacks. As you mentioned, HP Grass further reduces Zapdos' bulk and you lose super effective coverage vs. Steelix. Very importantly you also lose super effective coverage against Nidoking. This is quite a drawback as HP Ice Zapdos is frequently a Nidoking check and switch-in to Lovely Kiss, while HP Water can expect to beat it 1v1. When running HP Grass, Nidoking is a check to Zapdos. The reduced bulk from HP Grass guarantees Nidoking can 3HKO Zapdos, while Zapdos struggles to do anything in return, even with Drill Peck.
Nidoking Ice Beam vs. Zapdos: 134-158 (37.3 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. Nidoking: 71-84 (19.4 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zapdos Drill Peck vs. Nidoking: 95-112 (26 - 30.6%) -- 3.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
The only significant advantage HP Grass has over HP Water is the ability to hit Quagsire super effectively. While the better matchup vs. Cloyster is interesting, it is almost never a factor. When teams use Quagsire it is usually their designated electric type check and HP Grass can be fantastic in this matchup. However, Quagsire has very low usage. Looking at ladder usage stats, https://www.smogon.com/stats/, Quagsire is found on around 3% of teams. Understand these stats may not reflect high-level GSC games, but being generous you might say Quagsire has 5% usage.
I think if you try out HP Grass Zapdos, you will more frequently find yourself in situations where the move choice is a drawback instead of a benefit.
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To highlight what I think is the most important part of Siatam's answer:
The matchup against Nidoking is key, especially in today's metagame. HP Grass transforms that from a good to a bad matchup, which actually screws up a lot of builds. Quag is the only reason to really consider HP Grass over other options, and Quag is neither common nor, frankly, impactful enough to warrant such a serious downside.
Also, I figured I may as well bring up HP Fire. It's not great. Mostly because of that same Nidoking problem, in addition to some new Marowak & Rhydon problems. It's mostly notable for a thought experiment of Borat's from a decade ago. It does, however, OHKO Forretress, particularly lead Forretress that will probably try to stay in on your Zapdos. That's probably a better justification than HP Grass offers, honestly.
I agree completely. Nidoking is quite defining in today's meta plus Hidden power Water could make Nidoking's life fighting Zapdos even easier due to lowered bulk.
I do understand Stonecat 's concern though, since a pokemon like Quagsire can be a huge roadblock to a new player, like it was for me. The reason is that it an ability to come in on Zapdos taking what seems like negligible damage (if any) and it can leave the Zap user feeling a bit frustrated. The truth is, HP Grass isn't even necessary. I founf more success going for decent chip damage on it to the point where it can't attempt a sweepgood because of how costlt it is toa BD.
I am not sure if this is even what you would consider a simple question but...
It depends on what you are doing. Hp Bug is perhaps the least relevant as it only serves to deal SE damage to Starmie and perhaps Exeggutor while continuing to be harrased by Gengar and having one fewer option between choosing to either Spin, Explosion or have Toxic, the latter of which is really important vs Snorlax. Most often Cloyster and Forretress will want to be able to do at least one thing after laying Spikes when facing Snorlax between using boom and Toxic, otherwise a lot of momentum is lost due to it using Curse.
Hidden Power Ghost on the other hand, suffers from similar issues, not being able to do much to Snorlax besides boom or Toxic. At least it hurts Gengar which constantly harrasses Forretress by coming in on Boom, Toxic or Spin.
Here's another solution
Hidden Power [Fire]
Toxic
Spikes
Rapid Spin
You could also consider HP Fire which hits opposing Forretress, Skarmory, Steelix, Exeggutor and Jynx for super effective damage and does some chip damage, paired with Toxic you get to poison basically anything else. This set is more utility focused.
It kinda depends of the purpose of your team - unlike Cloyster, you're gonna need to address not only the value of your Forretress as a Spiker, but as a Spinner too (usually). Overall, i'd like to suggest these approaches:
Giga Drain Forretress: You have an awesome 1v1 match-up vs. Cloyster and Golem, at the cost of an uncomfortable match-up vs. opposing Forretress (except if you're using Giga + HP Fire) and Ghost-types (and Starmie, to a lesser extent). These issues can be fixed by pairing Forretress with a Pursuiter or / and a Spinblocker | back-up Rapid Spin user.
HP Fire Forretress: It's very good choice on teams with a Pursuiter IMO. It's quite troublesome to make a direct progress vs. Cloyster and Starmie (especially because of the reduced HP stat), but the clear advantage against opposing Forretress can make a difference between a excellent, and a terrible match-up! Keep in mind that you might find some trickier match-ups here and there (ex: non-Crunch + Pursuit Tyranitar have issues vs. Starmie, Pursuit Umbreon can't outdamage Rest Misdreavus' sleep loops, etc).
HP Ghost Forretress: I'd highly advise pairing HP Ghost Forretress with a Spinblocker - it significantly improves its performance vs. opposing Ghost-types, and having a Ghost-type of your own ensures that you won't need to play an undesirable stalemate / uphill battle against opposing Forretress.
Forretress + another Rapid Spin user: This is one of the few combinations where Forretress finds a lot of room to adjust its moveset (you can choose to use it with or without Rapid Spin - both are fine, by the way). Between Explosion, Giga, Hidden Power Fire / Bug / Ghost / Bug, and Toxic, you have a plethora of viable options here. I've seen people running specific moves such as Protect or Rest, and I think all of these moves are quite alright too, depending of the purpose of your team.
HP Bug Forretress: Personally, I've been having some trouble to find the optimal set-up for HP Bug Forretress. Starmie aside, I think this variant of Forretress can't address all of its obstacles reliably, namely: Spinblockers, Cloyster, and opposing Forretress. The only approach that I've been enjoying with this variant, was pairing a HP Bug Forretress with a Pursuiter AND a Spinblocker, or pairing it with another Spinner. Hitting Jynx, Exeggutor and Espeon for SE damage is awesome, though. I'd like to know what other people think about HP Bug, I think it has some hidden potential in the current metagame...
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How good was Misdreavus actually? I heard this was its best gen for it with support and such, also I know this generation has the God-Lax, how do I run him? I played in future generations and Snorlax is pretty OK, but in this gen its a God, how do I play him?
Misdreavus is ranked 18th on the OU viability ranking at the moment, so it is considered pretty good although I believe it to be one of the more controversial ranks. Mean Look + Perish Song is always a threat one has to keep in mind when facing it, but nowadays utility sets are more common. It is one of the best counters for Snorlax lacking Earthquake while also being able to block Rapid Spin. Here is the analysis for reference. Sleep Talk + Rest on it is now likely considered more viable than at the time the analysis was written and Thief has fallen a bit out of favor.
The downside of utility/disruptor Misdreavus is that it often lacks offensive presence, gives the two main electrics opportunity to switch in and overall is threatened by a lot of offensive pokemon.
Snorlax has so many options that it is impossible to briefly summarize everything. With Earthquake, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, Thunder and Surf it has many coverage moves to beat potential counters to it. Curse turns it onto arguably the most threatening pokemon against offensive teams. It is extremely bulky and can check most of the meta, especially when it carries Sleep Talk to not even allow the opponent to exploit it as much when it is being forced to use Rest. Other great options include Lovely Kiss, Self Destruct and Belly Drum. The unpredictability is part of what makes it so great, but even after its set is revealed it will continue being amazing offensive- and defensively. Here is the analysis.
I would also like to add that this is due to the change in the mechanics of the game between gen 2 and gen 3
-You can no longer use rest if a pokemon is asleep, snorlax is stopped from healing infinitely
-roar and whirlwind work if used with sleep talk and lack negative priority, snorlax can be kicked out by someone fast like suicune
-New movements such as brick break and focus punch, one is precise and learned by many, the other forces Snorlax to play offensive, otherwise it will fall into an encore or substitute or roar, etc.
-also that now there is will-o-wisp that burns snorlax and forces him to delay, the worst thing is that ghosts learn him
-sandstorm tyranitar, this automatically favors various snorlax walls, gives them chip damage and pressures snorlax to play more carefully
-and most importantly, there is no max stats system, this favors many but it hurts snorlax notably, because snorlax had decent stats in every area, except speed, for example it is common that snorlax now only modifies attack and health, this causes that now a simple return of porygon2 causes enormous damage (before snorlax laughed at this), also in this example snorlax neglects the special attack which leaves him at the mercy of physical walls that in gen 2 would be heavily hit by thunder, fire blast, etc.
Since the only special thing Rollout does is allow lastmon Curselax to beat Curse Skarm, there's no reason to use it over typical coverage options.
I think HP Bug is being underrated on Forry. Beating Starmie to scare off Spin attempts is comparably useful to running Fire to beat other Forry. Eggy can be a huge offensive threat, and versus Jynx it's notable that HP Fire isn't guaranteed to break a Substitute plus the loss of bulk certainly isn't helping either. It can actually even beat non-Fire Ttars, and simply having access to passable direct damage shouldn't be underestimated sometimes -- it's especially nice on non-Explosion sets so you're not letting Lax in for literally free, which it can abuse to recover from low health.
I think HP Bug is being underrated on Forry. Beating Starmie to scare off Spin attempts is comparably useful to running Fire to beat other Forry. Eggy can be a huge offensive threat, and versus Jynx it's notable that HP Fire isn't guaranteed to break a Substitute plus the loss of bulk certainly isn't helping either. It can actually even beat non-Fire Ttars, and simply having access to passable direct damage shouldn't be underestimated sometimes -- it's especially nice on non-Explosion sets so you're not letting Lax in for literally free, which it can abuse to recover from low health.
Rollout also allows Curselax to beat combinations of Pokemon that no other two-attack combination can. e.g. Curse Skarmory + Rest Misdreavus or Rest Tyranitar.
HP Bug is rated the way it is because Toxic is widely regarded as better, however there are some occasions where HP Bug is admittedly useful.
At best, Rollout is comparable to the aforementioned HP Grass on Zapdos where it's technically better in rare occasions but is never really viable by the numbers. Misdreavus is just as likely to have Protect, or heaven forbid Confuse Ray, Ttar won't have Curse or Rest or will be a Golem / Rhydon / Steelix, etc.
Incidentally, HP Bug simply replacing HP Fire in the posted moveset (Toxic, Spikes, Spin) pairs it with Toxic instead of one replacing the other. It's at least better than shitty Giga Drain which doesn't do enough to really beat Cloyster or Starmie anyway and is incidentally most useful at scaring Rhydon. CE did an excellent job of summarizing Forry's attacking options. It's just GD only beats Cloy if you forgo attempting to put up Spikes (nobody switches Cloy into Forry anyway, it's always the other way around, and Giga probably doesn't 3HKO + may not recover enough HP to avoid the 3HKO back) and I don't feel like beating standard Golem is a priority because that's not a serious offensive threat anyway.
Incidentally, HP Bug simply replacing HP Fire in the posted moveset (Toxic, Spikes, Spin) pairs it with Toxic instead of one replacing the other. It's at least better than shitty Giga Drain which doesn't do enough to really beat Cloyster or Starmie anyway and is incidentally most useful at scaring Rhydon. CE did an excellent job of summarizing Forry's attacking options. It's just GD only beats Cloy if you forgo attempting to put up Spikes (nobody switches Cloy into Forry anyway, it's always the other way around, and Giga probably doesn't 3HKO + may not recover enough HP to avoid the 3HKO back) and I don't feel like beating standard Golem is a priority because that's not a serious offensive threat anyway.
Giga Drain is kinda nice to really wrest spikes control from relatively popular cloy + golem teams. You lose a resource in the vs Forry matchup, but it gives you a one-poke spikes game solution that puts an otherwise well-regarded 2-poke solution in a real pickle. Granted, Toxic alone can do that in theory, but when it's 1-on-2, the extra sustain and immediate threat from GD can really help.
HP Bug just doesn't have any great targets. Classically it's mostly for 2hkoing Starmie, but Starmie no longer has a spinning monopoly (it's actually a narrow second banana to Golem rn) and Starmie could always beat the tactic with Reflect anyway. I guess one shouldn't underestimate the general utility of a STAB move, though. Gives you a resource to punish low health Lax looking for a nap at the very least.
HP Bug just doesn't have any great targets. Classically it's mostly for 2hkoing Starmie, but Starmie no longer has a spinning monopoly (it's actually a narrow second banana to Golem rn) and Starmie could always beat the tactic with Reflect anyway. I guess one shouldn't underestimate the general utility of a STAB move, though. Gives you a resource to punish low health Lax looking for a nap at the very least.
Is any Uber pokemon considered better than Snorlax? I think I heard Snorlax is still the best Pokemon in Uber and the only reason it isn't Uber is because you can't take away the one thing the tier is designed around
Most players would agree that Snorlax is the best mon in OU and Ubers. Most players also agree that there is no need to ban Snorlax from OU. Bans are not created based of a mon's usage or perceived viability, but rather if it creates an "unbalanced metagame."
Unbalanced is a vague term but encompasses things like overcentralizing team building, promoting uncompetitive strategies, or creating an otherwise undesirable meta. These criteria are intentionally open ended and allow room for discussion. So while Snorlax has near 100% usage in OU and Ubers; there are plenty of offensive and defensive strategies to deal with Snorlax, it does not promote uncompetitive strategies (in game or in matchups), and provides a positive influence on the meta.
As an example of the last point, Snorlax is only viable specially defensive wall that is a physical attacker. This niche is critical for success of offensive teams and promotes diverse team styles in GSC.
So while Snorlax is the best mon in OU and Ubers, it not banned because of its positive influence on the meta and is not considered uncompetitive or overcentralizing in the first place. Of course this is simply the majority opinion and overall sentiment can change over time, but judging by history Snorlax is here to stay in OU.
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This topic got brought up in a Gen 2 hack I'm following, and now I'm curious what all it affects.
I know that in Gens 1 and 2, end-of-turn effects trigger after each Pokémon acts individually (unlike in later gens where it's a universal thing at the end of the turn). I know some aspects like Poison/Burn damage get ignored if you KO an opponent, but I'm not sure what else gets "skipped" if you KO an opponent. So, I'm looking for answers! Most of my "competitive" Gen 2 experience is via Stadium 2 but the Stadium games can have slightly altered mechanics.
Here are a few possible things that I think might get skipped:
-Sandstorm damage
-Curse/Nightmare damage
-Healing items (Leftovers/Berries -- I guess I could just watch a competitive match to check Lefties, but IIRC berries trigger after a Pokémon acts in Gen 2 and its cure trigger is met, not immediately when the trigger is met, right?)
Something else mentioned by one of the hack devs was that secondary move effects like stat boosts don't trigger if you KO an opponent (so, like Metal Claw's Attack boost). Is this accurate? It's an expanded hack and a few other aspects got mechanically messed up (Hyper Beam somehow reverted to its Gen 1 behavior lol), so this might be another unintentional mechanics mistake.
I know that in Gens 1 and 2, end-of-turn effects trigger after each Pokémon acts individually (unlike in later gens where it's a universal thing at the end of the turn). I know some aspects like Poison/Burn damage get ignored if you KO an opponent, but I'm not sure what else gets "skipped" if you KO an opponent. So, I'm looking for answers! Most of my "competitive" Gen 2 experience is via Stadium 2 but the Stadium games can have slightly altered mechanics.
Here are a few possible things that I think might get skipped:
-Sandstorm damage
-Curse/Nightmare damage
-Healing items (Leftovers/Berries -- I guess I could just watch a competitive match to check Lefties, but IIRC berries trigger after a Pokémon acts in Gen 2 and its cure trigger is met, not immediately when the trigger is met, right?)
Something else mentioned by one of the hack devs was that secondary move effects like stat boosts don't trigger if you KO an opponent (so, like Metal Claw's Attack boost). Is this accurate? It's an expanded hack and a few other aspects got mechanically messed up (Hyper Beam somehow reverted to its Gen 1 behavior lol), so this might be another unintentional mechanics mistake.
Hi all, got a question on breeding using the Gameboy Virtual Console for Crystal Version. I am attempting to make a Belly Drum Charmander using a Male Snorlax with Belly Drum and a Female Charizard. However in about 20 hours of cycling up and down, using a string attached to a fan and cycling road, I have yet to produce a single egg. Is there something I am doing wrong or something I can do better? I have a hard time believing my luck is that bad but it very well could be. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.
The chance of an egg is based on what the daycare people say, you will have a chance as long as they don't say anything along the lines of "the two prefer to play with others". The more favorable the phrasing (it changes throughout different gens so I dont remember the exact ones for gen2), the better your chances are. The chance to get an egg is also initiated after a certain amount of steps generally 256. So long story short, yes your luck is probably that bad, just keep chugging along.
Try checking your pokes DVs. Gen 2 tries to prevent inbreeding if your pokes have the same Def and Special DV (or Special DV plus or minus 8). These pokes will never produce an egg.
Trigger effects can be separated into 3 main categories: after turn, after action, or immediate. I just made up these terms to describe what is happening, but these are dictated by where in the games assembly code each action is located.
Status conditions like poison, burn, and leech seed are what I call "after action." So after making a move or switching in these conditions will apply. This means they can be skipped by something being KO'd and immediately ending the turn. Other statuses in this category include Curse and Nightmare. Notably thawing is not an "after action" effect. Secondary effects from moves also fall into this category which means you cannot steal items with Thief or get boosts from Ancient Power if you KO an opponent with these moves. The recharge status from Hyper Beam is also one of these effects, but it was an exception intentionally changed between Gens 1 and 2.
Other effects occur at the end of the turn, and for all functional purposes "simultaneously" to each side of the field. These cannot be skipped and after a mon is KO'd, will occur after its replacement is switched in. These "after turn" actions include healing from Leftovers, taking Sandstorm damage, healing HP or PP from berries, thawing from being frozen, and being hit by Future Sight. Wrapping effects also technically fall in this category but obviously can never be active after a KO. The damaging effects (Sandstorm, Wrap moves, and Future Sight) take place before healing effects (Leftovers and berries). Berserk Gene also falls into this category. It activates before the first turn of a battle (end of turn 0 so to say) or will activate at the end of the turn the mon holding it is switched in. Berserk Gene's Confusion will still activate at the end of the turn even if the mon holding the item is Baton Passed +6 attack.
The last category "immediate" is small and only contains status curing berries. These activate before anything else as soon as conditions are met.
One last side note is the funky interaction between "after action" statuses and Pursuit. Normally after a KO these effects are skipped. However, if a mon is KO'd by Pursuit while switching out the attacker will still experience "after action" effects, poison damage etc. The easiest way to think about this is that the turn does not end with a KO but ends with a switch. This is also the reason that after being KO'd by Pursuit in gens 2-4 the original switch will be completed, while in later gens a new switch can be selected. This specific interaction only exists in Gen 2 though because of the nature of "after action" effects.
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