OU GSC OU Discussion Thread

hellpowna

beware of coco
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
It’s been almost a year since my first approach to this Tier and in this year (approximately) I’ve managed to accumulate a good knowledge of the Tier, playing, but above all listening a lot.
In my constant and continuous “desire to experiment with new concepts”, driven by a strong curiosity (a prominent characteristic of my personality), I have tried (and still try) to innovate and improve myself. Let’s be clear: it’s not easy to “innovate” and at the same time be “effective”, especially because straying too far from what makes a Pokemon effective can make it ineffective.
I specify that what I have chosen to explore I did not discover, but I firmly believe that in the past more experienced players have been able to discuss and test its effect.
My “merit”, if we really want to define it as such, has been to appreciate its effectiveness, bring it back to light and deepen its use, trying to apply it effectively to a tier that is much more dynamic than in the past.

So, after this short premise, I am here to talk about Sandstorm

Thinking is essential for winning in Pokemon, especially in GSC, or at least for maintaining a consistent score of victories, and this is where the importance of “mindgaming” rather than simply “making predictions” comes from. The purpose of a mindgame is clearly to win the match, and this can be achieved by “shortening” the number of turns that separate us from victory, so as to leave less space for the opponent for their own strategies / mindgame / predict. When I mention “leaving less space for the opponent” it was precisely this aspect that struck me most about Sandstorm.
Having control of the game and managing its pace becomes a condition that very often leads to victory, without having to make unnecessary predictions or dangerous switchbacks.
But before we can talk about its effectiveness and how in my view it can be a determining factor, it is necessary to introduce its characteristics and effects:

- 16PP
- all active Pokemon lose 1/8 of their maximum HP unless they are a Ground, Rock, or Steel type. Fails if the current weather is Sandstorm. This means that you will not be able to reset the Sand as for Rain and Sun​

Entering into the more competitive aspect of the game and especially considering the importance of passive damage, Sand becomes therefore a factor that cannot, in my view, not be considered.
Inhibiting the opponent's Leftovers turns is a considerable advantage that leads the user to manage the pace, favoring victory without having to take risks, and forcing the opponent to have to take damage that in the long term can prove decisive forcing their plays.
Sandstorm has definitely been used in GSC stall(Omastar capitalizes on this best) before with good results but attempting Sandstorm on offense is a mostly untouched concept in the gen.
In theory, you used could use it to help put things in KO range along with spikes support. For example, one of the pokemon that I think is exceptional in its use is Nidoking because it exerts a lot of pressure on its most common checks (Snorlax -3HKed with sand and spikes)

There are several offensive and defensive strategies that make the most of Sandstorm.
Pokemon like Tyranitar or the Nidoking mentioned above are able to exert considerable pressure, thanks to their wide movepool and their offensive statistics.
Again, in a more defensive approach the Spam of Toxic, with Sand and Spikes turns into a real nightmare for the opponent who helpless will try to switch/force plays/consume pp. Not to be underestimated.

To make easier the understanding I share some replays:

- Vs Mashing
-Vs Voyager
It’s definitely not easy to use; it needs to be contextualized. I use "x" to favor "y" (as in my case above > I want to kill the electric / damage Snorlax with Sandstorm/Counter) to favor Vaporeon.
With this, I hope I have been able to give an input on its use and how effective this move can be in certain circumstances.
Maybe it can be a starting point for discussion, to hear the opinion of those who are more experienced.
I conclude by saying that in my personal opinion there is still room for improvement in this game and in this tier, and that player growth can still continue for a long time, perhaps improving the current state of the tier.

Thanks for reading!
 
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Just thought I'd post a couple calcs/mechanics I reference fairly often:

Pursuit + Dbond: if the destiny bond user is faster and is KOd by pursuit while switching out, the pursuiter will not faint. replay
if the destiny bond user is slower and is KOd by pursuit while switching out, the pursuiter will faint. replay

HP type: hp fire and hp water really screw with your DVs so if they are in a certain range you can tell from damage rolls. Generally if it looks like it does too much, calc it (showdown rounds normally).

hp fire on forre: lax eq: <=18% not hp fire, >=21% hp fire
hp fire on egg: lax d-e: <=42% not hp fire, >=47% hp fire
hp water on kou: For zap thunder: <=20% not hp water, >=24% hp water.
hp water on zap: lax d-e: <=41% not hp water, >=49% hp water

note the hp water elecs are somewhat unlikely to detect.
 
Yesterday I thought about making a post to talk about 2023 GSC meta. I wanna point some trends that I've notice lately playing and watching GSC and hopefully start a discussion on how has usage and effectiveness of some pokemon changed. These are my thoughts and of course everyone can share theirs. So:

:jynx:
Since Fear, one of the greatest to ever touch the meta, used sleep talk Jynx in the latest SPL, it has become a real jynx set and some players have started to add it to their toolbox. RT Jynx sacrifices the ability jynx had to cripple pokemon (Lovely kiss, Thief) in exchange for the ability to switch for free into non hp fire exeggutor and non fire punch gengar, this set can be a little bit fishy, but it can put in a lot of work getting free chanes to do chip damage. Rest is also useful against stall, where you can rest up against toxic and switch in for free against pokemon such as Skarmory, Jynx being able to take toxic makes it a great partner for Whirwind zapdos, because they can work together breaking every defensive backbone. Even against bad matchups, Jynx sometimes can absorb sleep with correct play, allowing you to keep pokemon such as zapdos and snorlax awake, which are not bad taking sleep, but usually can put in a lot more work when they are not limited to click sleep talk for an unknown amount of turns.

:alakazam:
The zammer is real good. It has encore, which is an amazing tool that turns the tables in a lot of matchups and the move is broken in gen 2. Alakazam in lategame is an authentic nightmare to some "old school offensive teams", it punishes vaporeon heavily, destroys nidogar/nidochamp builds, and sweeps while staying healthy. Toughest part is breaking through lax, but this is definitely a possible task. Fire punch is the strongest set in my opinion, but toxic is something to watch out for. Very useful pokemon that has been earning a place in the metagame at all levels, and should hava a sample team dedicated imo. Jynx and gengar are great partners, specially destiny bond sets which can trade with snorlax or crunch tyranitar. I'd like to point out a cool synergy I saw with counter jynx + encore zam, zam revealed might bait the snorlax player to not click curse in endgames, and makes lax very easy to take down with jynx if you manage to stay alive. Just something I wanted to say '-'

:nidoking:
Our favorite purple dinosaur has been suffering lately. In this year's viability rankings it was already ranked pretty low, and the rise of the two mentioned pokemon and some more that I'll probably mention is relegating it to a sussy place in the metagame. It also hates the fact that Edge, Eq, RT lax has become the number one set by far, 3/3 punish nido, and this of course bad news. Stall, while being usable, has also reduced its usage at the highest level in my eyes, all of this combined is hurting nidoking's viability. Starmie is also everywhere and snorlax is not Kiss talkless anymore like some years ago.

:snorlax:
King lebron has evolved to adapt to this highly offensive metagame. Double Edge, Earthquake, Rest and Sleep talk are the most common 4 moves by far on lax now. This set has everything. Coverage, great glue against stall and electrics, opportunities to punish it's checks and a lot of defensive role compression to fit a lot of different sets in offense. Of course it lacks the firepower of curse, but it has proven to be the very best. Curse monolax and curse EQ are still powerful like they have always been, but seeing so many rest talk has changed how GSC is player for sure. Flame variants are rarer every day and Drumlax is slowly getting forgotten.

:jolteon:
Jolt is a pokemon that I've never liked. Because it is frail and needs to spend a turn using growth to become threatening, and then it has to hit one or two thunders against several pokemon to end up sweeping which gives it sussy odds. Still, jolt has proven to be amazing and, a bit like alakazam, Destroys offense once Lax is low. It has the big advantage of being able to set up against zapdos frequently (you might get paralyzed but most of the time you will want to take those odds) and being the fastest thing in GSC, at least among the common viable stuff. It's also good into nidoking and boomspam teams.

:heracross:
Mi dear and beloved hera is crying in a corner right now. With nidoking and machamp being a bit rarer (machamp is as good as it has always been in my eyes but yeah) it has less matchups where it sits, boosts and wins. getting rid of zapdos is becoming a bit more difficult and steelix is also omniprescent which of course, is a terrible matchup for heracross. So, with the things it checks, such as nidoking, machamp or marowak becoming rarer, the defensive utility of heracross is limited and it's less useful overall because it has a harder time trying to progress aswell.

:skarmory:
with mean pass gone, skarmory has opted to drop Phazing more frequently. Drill peck + toxic is a magnific set. It doesn't allow anything for free (well, it does, but it's passive bird after all) It gets the work done better than the other sets. Also, the playerbase has started to think curse + toxic is a bit awkward, and this set has been taken less in consideration I think. Drill peck + whirlwind is the second best I'd say. it is a valuable win condition in long game scenarios and preserves whirlwind which is of course, ideal.

:blissey:
last but not least. I wanted to talk about blissey stall. I think stall overall is in a weird spot. A lot of stall vs offense games end up with stall getting haxed, and also stall tends to have a bad time since it always needs to keep the advantage in order to win, and offense has lots of tools to come back, which include, but are not limited to Double switching, spikes, and well timed explosions and crits. I've seen Conflict, which is the best GSC player right now in my eyes, use cool volt beam blissey sets in stall, and I think blissey stall should see a bit more usage. It allows builds that are not extremely passive, fitting pokemon like rhydon, curse kiss lax and more. Typical raikou + tyranitar is great and even raikou umbreon, but those suffer terribly in modern metagame and every game against a good opponent is a torture unless you get a dream matchup, which frequently means your opponent loading a doubtful build.

This got long. There's of course a lot more things to point out but I would like to see what everyone thinks about current state of the metagame and what has been popular, why, and if you don't agree with me, since I think GSC teambuilding is in a pretty cool moment especially at the highest level. Share your thoughts '-'
 
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Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Hey, so I know we have the sample teams thread and all, which currently sorts things into "Offense", "Spikesless offense", and "Stall". But I'm a curmudgeon who's not totally happy with those three buckets. What buckets would y'all say capture the variety of teams out there? If I were to start sorting, they'd probably fall in the following six buckets, sorted in a rough tier list to boot:

Default playstyle tier
Spikes-based Explosion offense

Stall tier
Spikes-based PP stall
Stall with stallbreakers

Wackass unhinged offensive playstyle that will still kill you if you don't respect it tier
All-out Explosion offense
GrowthPass
AgiPass

What do y'all think?
  • Anything I'm missing?
  • Is my playstyle tier list wack?
  • Is BP an unbucket on par with the likes of Sand and Sun?
  • Is Thief a bucket?
  • Would you further break things into subbuckets?
 

gorgie

formerly Floppy, now Rock hard
It depends.

Is it being done to better accommodate new players, or just for fun? If the former, I'd keep broader buckets.

For instance I'd group your (agi/growth)pass into a single "BP bucket". I wouldn't differentiate all-out Explosion teams from regular spikes-based ones because...bad idea to sell to noobs.

If this is strictly experimental however, then it can start to get fun with subbuckets like you hinted.

Depends on the goal.
 
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Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Well, if we’re gonna get meta, the goal is definitely not to make a set of recommendations for newbie teambuilders. It’s more for folks to quibble about what actually counts as a different yet *viable* playstyle and what is ultimately just a substitution of ingredients.

I think my thinking boils down to: have you ever ended up with a big folder of teams where half of them clearly play very similarly? Spring cleaning season is coming up and it’d be nice to at least know how many subfolders to make.
 
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Jirachee

phoenix reborn
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Hey, so I know we have the sample teams thread and all, which currently sorts things into "Offense", "Spikesless offense", and "Stall". But I'm a curmudgeon who's not totally happy with those three buckets. What buckets would y'all say capture the variety of teams out there? If I were to start sorting, they'd probably fall in the following six buckets, sorted in a rough tier list to boot:

Default playstyle tier
Spikes-based Explosion offense

Stall tier
Spikes-based PP stall
Stall with stallbreakers

Wackass unhinged offensive playstyle that will still kill you if you don't respect it tier
All-out Explosion offense
GrowthPass
AgiPass

What do y'all think?
  • Anything I'm missing?
  • Is my playstyle tier list wack?
  • Is BP an unbucket on par with the likes of Sand and Sun?
  • Is Thief a bucket?
  • Would you further break things into subbuckets?
I think it's an interesting question, because GSC teams can usually differ playstyles based on sets alone. Either way, I think you may be missing a few categories so here are a couple of examples to discuss:


Is this a Boom offense? I wouldn't call it that personally. Yes, it's got 3 exploders, but the booms don't have specific targets to take down in order to set up a late game mon's sweep in the way Borat's team works. It can win in a lot of different ways, like a Lax sweep or just having more booms than the opponent has mons; but also simply through walling the opponent's remaining mons. I think a team like this would simply be a balance because it can tailor its win path to the opponent's team. Obviously it also depends on the sets you'd use, but the versatility is also an incentive for me to call it a balance.


Classic Nido Tar Gar. Again, I'm uncomfortable calling this a Boom offense. It's only got 2 boomers, and both are there primarily due to other factors. This is a reasonably offensive team that wins by distilling every last bit of value out of Spikes. Gengar and Nidoking can run Thief, but they don't have to. There are similar builds that run Jynx or Starmie as a late game sweeper, so I'd categorize those under the same bucket. It's tough to come up with a name but these all run mixed or special attackers. Maybe you could call it special offense since its goal will always be to beat down the special walls (Lax / Kou / Zap.)
 

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
I think it's an interesting question, because GSC teams can usually differ playstyles based on sets alone. Either way, I think you may be missing a few categories so here are a couple of examples to discuss:


Is this a Boom offense? I wouldn't call it that personally. Yes, it's got 3 exploders, but the booms don't have specific targets to take down in order to set up a late game mon's sweep in the way Borat's team works. It can win in a lot of different ways, like a Lax sweep or just having more booms than the opponent has mons; but also simply through walling the opponent's remaining mons. I think a team like this would simply be a balance because it can tailor its win path to the opponent's team. Obviously it also depends on the sets you'd use, but the versatility is also an incentive for me to call it a balance.


Classic Nido Tar Gar. Again, I'm uncomfortable calling this a Boom offense. It's only got 2 boomers, and both are there primarily due to other factors. This is a reasonably offensive team that wins by distilling every last bit of value out of Spikes. Gengar and Nidoking can run Thief, but they don't have to. There are similar builds that run Jynx or Starmie as a late game sweeper, so I'd categorize those under the same bucket. It's tough to come up with a name but these all run mixed or special attackers. Maybe you could call it special offense since its goal will always be to beat down the special walls (Lax / Kou / Zap.)
You're right. The "main" playstyle is probably better called "Spikes offense" than anything to do with Explosion. One might even call it "Balance" to keep things even more general. It's just that most teams in this mold have at least two Explosions that they use to punctuate the match, but the defining characteristic is definitely combining Spikes + a move like Zapdos Thunder to apply pressure on Snorlax.

Beyond that naming quibble, I'd happily put both of those teams in the same Spikes Offense bucket. Granted, this is by far the largest bucket, with double electric + golem spinner being on the conservative end of the spectrum, and nidogartar being on the aggressive end. I'm not sure I'd draw a categorical line between the two for any other reason than the arbitrary "I think this playstyle encompasses too many teams", though.

I personally find the various "stalls" in the sample teams thread to be more interesting edge cases. Let's consider the Double Dog stall credited to ABR & BKC as an example:

It's clearly got Skarmory and Suicune, two do-nothing dandies as far as offense is concerned. Is that enough to call this a stall? The actual playstyle is still awfully close to Spikes Offense in my book, with a combination of Spikes + Roar Raikou & Mixed Snorlax being the main gameplan (albeit without heal bell support, which I personally don't like very much). Plus two Explosions to punctuate things. It's just that Skarm and Suicune clearly don't contribute to this plan or to any other "side hustle" the team might have, instead shoring up some of the typical defensive shortcomings of this playstyle. Still, I'd be willing to admit a different bucket for teams that play like this one. "Semistall", maybe?

As for the Growth vs. Agipass point that I left unaddressed, I think they play differently enough to be considered separate. Agipass is completely unhinged and swings for the fences from turn 1. Growthpass is just a *little* unhinged and maintains something resembling a defensive structure, so it plays closer to a conventional playstyle.
 

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