Lower Tiers GSC NU Discussion

[dawnbuster]

whats the best way to learn old gen nu tiers? since they dont have a ladder on ps idk what to do.

Its best to look at the resources of all the tiers(VRs, Samples etc) first. Then, try asking for games in places likes the Ruins of Alph room on Pokemon Showdown(I’m always up to play a game :p).

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-nu-viability-rankings.3665219/ is the Viability Rankings

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nu-old-gens-hub.3562659/#post-6634819 most updated version of the samples

 

[Quirky_Turkey]

ok ty :))

 

[dawnbuster]

THE GSC NU LEAD METAGAME BY HOLLY

Hey all! I am here to talk about one of the most intriguing parts of GSC NU, the lead metagame. There are several great leads in the tier, and they all have a unique matchup against other common leads. This can lead to an interesting conundrum both in the teambuilder and when playing. I’ll separate the various leads into differences categories.

1: Spiker leads(or just Pineco lead)
2: Sleep Leads
3: Attacking leads
4: Anti Leads
5: General supporting leads

1: Spiker lead:

(Miracle Berry is an option on Pineco)
Getting Spikes up early in the game can be crucial for both offensive and defensive teams alike, and Pineco is by far the best Spiker in the tier. Its ability to lay up Spikes against other common leads like Dugtrio and Wigglytuff turn 1 is very valuable and is further boosted by the fact that Rapid Spin is not very common in GSC NU. Pineco itself is rather frail and tough to switch in, so leading it makes that easier. Pineco also has Explosion, so it can force a trade early in the game if the opponent lacks a Rock-type.

2: Sleep Leads


These Pokemon use their high speed to get an early game Sleep off on a slower lead in order to gain an early game leg up. Rapidash is the most iconic lead in the tier, using its blazing Speed, Hypnosis, and strong offensive power to attack and Sleep early game. Stantler is slower then Rapidash, but also has access to supporting moves like Thief, Light Screen,and Reflect, while also being a powerful offensive threat that can boost up with Curse. Persian is weaker then Stantler and lacks Earthuake, but it is the fastest of the leads, and also has access to Thief and other options such as Nightmare and Screech. Lastly, Poliwhirl has access to the more accurate Lovely Kiss as well as Belly Drum to turn itself into a sweeper.

3: Attacking Leads


Instead of trying to support their team from the start of the game, these Pokemon use their power to dish out damage early in the game. Dugtrio is a powerful offensive threat that can block Sleep from leads such as Poliwhirl with Sub, and target other leads such as Rapidash, Magmar, and Pineco. Xatu is the premier Special Attacker of the tier, and can Thief, hit hard, and check other common leads such as Poliwhirl, and Dugtrio. Stantler is also listed as a Sleep lead, but can go without Hypnosis and use Curse to act as an early game wallbreaker. Magmar can OHKO Pineco, dish out damage early game, and 2HKO almost every other lead. Lastly, Dragonair uses its excellent coverage and Thunder Wave to deal damage to a wide variety of foes, and paralyse stuff.

4: Anti Leads


These Pokemon act as counterleads to other common leads in the metagame. Octillery has a great matchup against Rapidash and Dugtrio, can absorb Sleep from Persian, 2HKO Pineco, and hit hard early in the game. Azumarill is the premier leads on defensive teams, and can setup Light Screen early in the game, and dominate Rapidash, Dugtrio, and Magmar. Sudowoodo beats Rapidash, Persian, Pineco, as well as Wigglytuff leads. It can also potentially boom early in the game to remove a key threat. Lastly, Wigglytuff uses its great natural bulk as well as ability to spread paralysis with Body Slam or Thunder Wave to act as a decent answer to most of the previously mentioned leads.

5: General supporting leads

These Pokemon focus more on setting up Screens, and are more seen on Baton Pass/Setup HO teams. Dragonair has unique access to both Screens as well as Thunder Wave, so sometimes it trade its coverage for screens and Thunder Wave. Voltorb also has Screens and Thunder Wave, but is much faster(outspeeds Xatu, Magmar, and Stantler), and can Explode, giving a free opportunity for its setup teammates to come in. Azumarill has already been mentioned for its ability to setup Light Screen and check Rapidash and Dugtrio. Stantler is one of the few Pokemon in the tier able to setup both Light Screen and Reflect, and it can also use Hypnosis. Parasect has Light Screen and Reflect, and can Stun Spore/Spore to give setup teammates an easier time.​

 

[Ka1xo]

Hi!, for starters ReeceHughes told me to make a post about gscnu like tf why would anyone do that let alone me
[13:14] ReeceHughes: post about sunflora

anyways onto gscnu

a highly underrated grass mon in the tier that can abuse the combination of both growth and synthesis to boost its already insanely high SpA stat of 308 which is 105 base which is tied for highest spa than every single mon in the tier alongside and

the only downside about this mon is well....base 30 speed, yep, base 30 speed, along with a mediocre at best special movepool but who needs a vast special movepool when you have 2 slots taken up by growth and synthesis which leaves you with typically any hidden power of your choice and giga drain/razor leaf, now onto it's speed tier.

base 30 hits 158 which is awful for a mon like sunflora, forcing it to speedtie with other mons such as magcargo, parasect, and sudowoodo 3 mons it can easily kill on its own at +1-2 but having to rely on a speed tie to not get boomed on by sudowoodo, and damaged by the other 2, additionally this awful speed tier means you're outsped by literally the whole tier and given its average at best bulk its not likely to be eating any SE hits anytime soon, but this isn't exactly a bad thing overall, having this pretty awful speed means it slots nicely onto a potential baton pass team and can be passed an agility to double its speed going from 158 to an insane 316 which allows sunflora to outspeed everything slower than rapidash which hits 308

it does have a fair amount of checks and counters in the tier such as which eats giga drains like theres no tomorrow and can fire back with a SE sludge bomb which takes advantage of its low phys def at 208 which is base 55,
but i mean xatu is fucking xatu nothing else to be said
this thing comes in on giga and takes like 10% like cmon no one wants to lose to the magnet, just run hp fire on sunflora and you should be fine
and / two fire types beating a grass type who wouldve known


now the conclusion, overall sunflora (if given the right support via team comps) can be a monstrously powerful mon if used properly and used in the right situations

reject gloom return to the flower

 

[FNH]

reject gloom return to the flower

Blasphemy!
My problem with mono grass like this is its a free switch in for fire types, since it doesnt really punish them. Letting a Magmar in for free can be really troublesome, given it literally hits everything in the tier. It also lets in Weezing in for free which can be bad. I for one dont like to take slugde bombs. I am not sold on sunflora when I can just go Gloom.

 

[Lobissa]

Noctowl Appreciation Post

Noctowl @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Return
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This is a mon that I have been using for the last week or so and having a lot of fun with.

The main reason to use this over Wigglytuff or Stantler as a curse user is Noctowl´s superior special bulk and Immunity to Spikes which allows it to tank neutral hits way better than those two, most notably it avoids being 3HKOed by the numerous STAB Fire Blasts of the tier, except for Magmar, that has a very low 7% to 3HKO Noctowl without a Charcoal boost.

This also translates to other special attackers as well, Noctowl is able to switch into a HP Electric from Xatu or Octillery very comfortably and begin setting up Curses, Not being weak to fighting is also a nice bonus against Hitmonlee and Primeape.

But Noctowl is not flawless of course, it struggles with Magnemite and Curse Sudowoodo a lot, Weezing can Haze away boosts and threats Noctowl with Thunder or Explosion while not taking much damage at all and Noctowl itself is very weak before getting boosts, so that can be taken advantage of.

But the upsides can be very huge if you remove the bad matchups beforehand, so if you dont like your Normal Type to be defeated prematurely by special attacks, definitely consider Noctowl for a spot on your team.

Edit 1: One thing I forgot to mention is that, in my opinion, Noctowl completely kills any niche that Pidgeot might have being "LiKE fEaROw BuT bULkieR"

 

[Bughouse]

Noctowl Appreciation Post

Noctowl @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Return
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This is a mon that I have been using for the last week or so and having a lot of fun with.

The main reason to use this over Wigglytuff or Stantler as a curse user is Noctowl´s superior special bulk and Immunity to Spikes which allows it to tank neutral hits way better than those two, most notably it avoids being 3HKOed by the numerous STAB Fire Blasts of the tier, except for Magmar, that has a very low 7% to 3HKO Noctowl without a Charcoal boost.

This also translates to other special attackers as well, Noctowl is able to switch into a HP Electric from Xatu or Octillery very comfortably and begin setting up Curses, Not being weak to fighting is also a nice bonus against Hitmonlee and Primeape.

But Noctowl is not flawless of course, it struggles with Magnemite and Curse Sudowoodo a lot, Weezing can Haze away boosts and threats Noctowl with Thunder or Explosion while not taking much damage at all and Noctowl itself is very weak before getting boosts, so that can be taken advantage of.

But the upsides can be very huge if you remove the bad matchups beforehand, so if you dont like your Normal Type to be defeated prematurely by special attacks, definitely consider Noctowl for a spot on your team.

Edit 1: One thing I forgot to mention is that, in my opinion, Noctowl completely kills any niche that Pidgeot might have being "LiKE fEaROw BuT bULkieR"

while Noctowl is certainly an interesting and possibly better Curser than Pidgeot because of its special bulk, I would pretty strongly disagree with the idea that it means Pidgeot has no niche.
For one thing, it's a curser that still is a genuine damage threat even with no curses and it has speed. That lets it also act as a revenge killer, even when you haven't cursed up yet. For example, Pidgeot outruns Hitmonlee and does ~50% with Return. it also outruns Kingler and certainly does enough to break a Sub at least.

Second, for all of Noctowl's special bulk that doesn't mean it necessarily beats all special attackers better than Pidgeot does when it is cursed up. For example:
+6 Noctowl Return vs. Magnemite: 183-216 (72.3 - 85.3%)
Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. Noctowl: 205-242 (50.8 - 60%) -- 88.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magnemite will outrun and threaten the 2HKO, while Noctowl doesn't come close to OHKOing.

+6 Pidgeot Return vs. Magnemite: 231-272 (91.3 - 107.5%) -- 46.2% chance to OHKO
Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. Pidgeot: 251-296 (71.1 - 83.8%)
Here, Magnemite will never OHKO (though you have to be quite healthy), and you do OHKO it back most of the time.

Of course these are just a few sample calcs that would suggest to me Pidgeot definitely has more than "no niche".

 

[Lobissa]

while Noctowl is certainly an interesting and possibly better Curser than Pidgeot because of its special bulk, I would pretty strongly disagree with the idea that it means Pidgeot has no niche.
For one thing, it's a curser that still is a genuine damage threat even with no curses and it has speed. That lets it also act as a revenge killer, even when you haven't cursed up yet. For example, Pidgeot outruns Hitmonlee and does ~50% with Return. it also outruns Kingler and certainly does enough to break a Sub at least.

Second, for all of Noctowl's special bulk that doesn't mean it necessarily beats all special attackers better than Pidgeot does when it is cursed up. For example:
+6 Noctowl Return vs. Magnemite: 183-216 (72.3 - 85.3%)
Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. Noctowl: 205-242 (50.8 - 60%) -- 88.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Magnemite will outrun and threaten the 2HKO, while Noctowl doesn't come close to OHKOing.

+6 Pidgeot Return vs. Magnemite: 231-272 (91.3 - 107.5%) -- 46.2% chance to OHKO
Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. Pidgeot: 251-296 (71.1 - 83.8%)
Here, Magnemite will never OHKO (though you have to be quite healthy), and you do OHKO it back most of the time.

Of course these are just a few sample calcs that would suggest to me Pidgeot definitely has more than "no niche".

I really think that the Magnemite scenario is way too unlikely to actually happen on any game unless your opponent plays like a doorknob. What I mean by that is, when would you find time to setup 6 curses with either Pidgeot or Noctowl against a team with Magnemite? isnt it more likely that you either boost once or attack Mag on the switch before being forced out?

About Pidgeot's revenge killing stuff before cursing, its still not pumping out that much damage against bulkier targets, and its speed tier is nothing amazing either, outspeeding Hitmonlee, Kingler and Stantler is nice for sure, but being slower than Primeape and Xatu and not being able to tank those hits is not. Thats why I would rather use curse Fearow as a all out attacker early on, since its faster than all those mons that I listed and can hit them quite hard without boosts, then potencially attempt a curse sweep late game.

 

[Bughouse]

Fair point. Being between Noctowl and Fearow does make it harder to justify Pidgeot as a Curser. A clear example of this can be seen in more modern gens with Gourgeist, where the extremes - small and XL have niches in their metas, and regular and large barely have niches at all. It's possible there are some niche calcs that justify "Pidgeot can do this and neither Fearow nor Noctowl can", but even if such a calc exists, you're probably better using one of the two extremes of bulk/speed+power, and then just patching up any holes that are left behind.

Pidgeot probably still has viability with its other sets, such as Whirlwind, but at the very least I would agree that Curse/Rest/Sleep Talk/Return is hard to justify in the face of its competition from both Noctowl and Fearow.

 

[dawnbuster]

A set I’ve been using to somewhat decent success on Pidgeot is Return/Substitute/Whirlwind/Curse. With Light Screen+paralysis support, it can be threatening in some games. Whirlwind can phaze other mons and rack up Spikes damage as well which is nice. Definitely gimmicky, but still usable. I think Pidgeot is still not very good though, faces competition from a lot of other mons.

On Noctowl, I think the CurseRestTalk set has solid potential. Noctowl is notably bulkier then a lot of the other Curse normals(Dunsparce, Wigglytuff, Porygon), as Xatu’s Psychic only 5HKOs it. Its also immune to Spikes, which can give it some opportunities to come in and regain its health. The issue I find with Noctowl is that its a lot less immediately threatening than the other Curse normals, which might be annoying in some games. It also faces the same issues the rest do(Rock-types, Magnemite, Haze Weezing, dodging crit Cross Chop from Primeape, although it doesn’t get OHKOd like Wigglytuff)

 

[FNH]

On Noctowl, I think the CurseRestTalk set has solid potential. Noctowl is notably bulkier then a lot of the other Curse normals(Dunsparce, Wigglytuff, Porygon), as Xatu’s Psychic only 5HKOs it. Its also immune to Spikes, which can give it some opportunities to come in and regain its health. The issue I find with Noctowl is that its a lot less immediately threatening than the other Curse normals, which might be annoying in some games. It also faces the same issues the rest do(Rock-types, Magnemite, Haze Weezing, dodging crit Cross Chop from Primeape, although it doesn’t get OHKOd like Wigglytuff)

This whole noctowl trend is really viable, I have had it used vs me with some pretty good success recently. How many times i have lost to it makes me want to throw together a team and give it a try as well.

quick thoughts on some other stuff I think that is good still.

definately fell off a bit with teams gravitating towards bulkier water types to counter more imminent threats like Xatu, Dugtrio. But to be fair, Chinchou is still very good and helps you counter style the bulkier FWG stuff though gloom can give it problems. Any electric type STAB in the NU is going to be quite good to be fair, but chincou is still excellent as ever.

the more I use this mon, the better it seems. Really threatening right now with Pupitar and Graveler having low usage (based on the friendlies I have been playing). The curse set I havent used yet, but it seemed very good in the games I spectated.

I have been seeing less and less fighting types being used recently (maybe I am not playing enough people?). Kinda odd cause Hitmonlee is excellent as ever. I definately prefer the sleep talk varient, as the bulk is a nice sdpef buffer.

I would also say dugtrio and kingler at the moment are the closest to feeling unbalanced, both can be pains to check. the Screech dugtrio set reece made is actually quite annoying, escpecially if you are relying on a couple soft checks to stop Dugtrio. Kingler with Sub SD can just win games still. Hp ground + normal is by far the best combo for attacks in my opinion. Kingler's massive attack makes it a major pain to deal with at the moment.

 

[dawnbuster]

FNH posted meta thoughts so ig its my turn....

As Holly [CEO of GSC NU] I think GSC NU is in a fantastic state at the moment. The tier is very fun to play and fast paced, with lots of flexibility in the builder and when playing. The metagame has turned into a metagame where offensive teams are the most dominant and effective in the tier. I’ve said this before, offensive teams are easy to use, flexible in the builder, and most importantly, consistent. And the reason I feel offensive teams are so good is because of 4 Pokemon, Xatu, Weezing, Dugtrio, and Octillery. These four pair very well together, as they are all potent offensively and often gang up on each other’s checks. Xatu, Weezing, and Octillery are very good defensive Pokemon as well, meaning this four Pokemon pairing is incredibly reliable. This four Pokemon core + two others is legit a fantastic team lol. Particular favourites I have for the last two slots are Stantler, Primeape, Pineco, Sudowoodo, Fearow, Magmar, Rapidash, and Chinchou.


This is my most used GSC NU team at the moment, and I bring this in like 40% of my games or smth lol. Its very reliable, and I feel like this team has very few bad matchups. The goal of this team is supporting Fearow, as I have three other Pokemon able to switch into Rock-types that can threaten them(Dug, Octi, Ape). The team operates at a fast pace and puts constant pressure on defensive staples such as Wigglytuff, Dewgong, Ninetales, and Xatu.

Thoughts on Pokemon:

Xatu is still the best Pokémon in the metagame by a fairly far margin, and I think its just gotten better in recent months. You have no reason not to run it on most teams and I consider it mandatory on offensive teams. The sheer offensive and defensive potential alongside its reliability and use in every matchup make it the king of the tier, and it won’t go anywhere anytime soon.


Still a fantastic mon and the clear #2 imo. Monster offensively with its coverage, strong Sludge Bomb, and Explosion forcing trades. It counters the Fighting-types and is also great vs other threats like Fearow and Dewgong. You almost never don’t get value from this thing and you can put it onto every team with ease.


Oh boy, I gotta lot to say about this mon. I personally think that Dugtrio is the #3 Pokemon in GSC NU and the single most broken Pokemon in the entire tier. Its frankly broken offensively and the only reason it it not completely overpowered is its frailty and occasionally coming up short against Pokemon like Dewgong. Dugtrio is checked by Pokemon like Octillery and Wigglytuff, until it just bullshits through them with Screech while behind a Sub as they are RestTalking. STAB Earthquake is incredibly potent in GSC NU, hitting Weezing, the Fires, Chinchou and Magnemite, Sudowoodo and Graveler, and more. Dugtrio is also impossible to outspeed naturally as the fastest mon in the tier, meaning it revenge kills almost everything and saves games against weakened setup sweepers like Primeape and Kingler. Dugtrio is a great safety net for almost every team as a result, and you get solid use from it in virtually every game and matchup. Dugtrio 3HKOs a vast majority of the metagame, meaning it is difficult to check long term, especially with Spikes in the picture. Spikes also makes Screech Dugtrio even more terrifying. I think the rise in Dugtrio has contributed to the rise of offensive teams. This mon is honestly a little broken, and forces a lot of hax and RNG into the tier with shit like Rock Slide flinches changing games and Subbing on RestTalk pulls for Screech.


Still a good mon, but I think this mon is on the decline. The massive rise of Gloom, Dugtrio and Fearow being common and revenge killing it, and incredibly high usage of Xatu and Weezing(both often on the same team) make it less consistent offensively than other Pokemon, especially considering this thing legit can’t hit Cross Chop to save its life . I really don’t think its the top 3 or 5 mon it used to be.


Octillery has returned to its former glory, and is an incredibly splashable, solid, and consistent Pokemon in GSC NU. It is one of the strongest offensive Pokemon in the tier with its powerful Surf and good coverage, and its typing and bulk are good for beating shit like Xatu, Dugtrio, Rapidash, and Sudowoodo pretty reliably. Octillery is one of the biggest threats to the dominant offensive teams, as they struggle to switch into it greatly while Octillery itself is fantastic at trading hits with most of the tier.


One of the most threatening offensive Pokemon around, and one of the few Pokemon able to claim it has no counters(except Shuckle but lol). Stantler is hard to switch into and beat as its Return hits hard and its supporting movepool is fantastic with moves like Hypnosis, Thief, and both Screens. However, Curse LightScreen Stantler is often too hard to give up imo, as its a powerful setup sweepers that dominates standard Bulky Offense teams.

 

[Blaine500]

"A set I’ve been using to somewhat decent success on Pidgeot is Return/Substitute/Whirlwind/Curse. With Light Screen+paralysis support, it can be threatening in some games. Whirlwind can phaze other mons and rack up Spikes damage as well which is nice. Definitely gimmicky, but still usable. I think Pidgeot is still not very good though, faces competition from a lot of other mons.

On Noctowl, I think the CurseRestTalk set has solid potential. Noctowl is notably bulkier then a lot of the other Curse normals(Dunsparce, Wigglytuff, Porygon), as Xatu’s Psychic only 5HKOs it. Its also immune to Spikes, which can give it some opportunities to come in and regain its health. The issue I find with Noctowl is that its a lot less immediately threatening than the other Curse normals, which might be annoying in some games. It also faces the same issues the rest do(Rock-types, Magnemite, Haze Weezing, dodging crit Cross Chop from Primeape, although it doesn’t get OHKOd like Wigglytuff)" -Reeece

The last few posts on here have been about my boi Noctowl (a.k.a my favorite early bird pokemon) and that's more than alright by me! But to answer what y'all have been arguing about back and forth with such passion. Yes, this big brain owl can be a threat and a good one at that if given a chance. Having literally used it against legendaries in OU myself I can attest to the fact that it's no pushover.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1004925241

With special defensive bulk basically on par with the likes of pokemon in ubers such as celebi or mew and access to support moves like hypnosis, whirlwind, reflect, mirror move, nightmare, night shade, curse, growl and toxic it can really pull it's weight on a team when handled properly. It may not have the single deepest movepool on the face of the earth but what it does get works for its stats and makes it an effective bird of prey.

Here's the moveset that I used in that replay for anyone interested:


Held Item: Leftovers
-Rest
-Curse
-Whirlwind
-HP Flying/Return

 

[File 13]

Agility Mantine: An Option for GrowthPass/Spikes Offense

With its colossal Base 140 Special Defense, Mantine can prove difficult to topple for special attackers lacking Electric coverage. In case of emergency, Mantine can even survive any single non-STAB Electric-type attack in the tier from full HP. If Mantine runs Hidden Power Grass (primarily to hit Chinchou super-effectively), the resulting loss in bulk means that Gastly's Thunder has a 30.8% chance to OHKO Mantine. However, Gastly is an uncommon pick in GSC NU, and is therefore not a cause for concern.

Agility enables Mantine to function as a fast attacker, outspeeding and 2HKOing threats like Xatu, Fearow, Gloom, Farfetch'd, Dragonair, Pidgeot, and Exeggcute with Blizzard. Unboosted Ice Beam comes up just shy of 2HKOing Xatu and Gloom, but it can be used for its higher PP and 100% accuracy if one is confident in their ability to successfully Baton Pass a Growth boost to Mantine. Unboosted STAB Hydro Pump OHKOs Dugtrio, Graveler, Houndour, and Pupitar, and 2HKOs Flareon, Ninetales, and Pineco. Mantine appreciates Spikes support, so pairing this set with Pineco is highly recommended. Mystic Water is the preferred item to capitalize on the chip damage provided by Spikes. Thanks to Mystic Water's 10% boost to Water-type attacks, Mantine can pick up OHKOs on Rapidash, Magmar, and Sudowoodo, as well as 2HKOs on Weezing, Raticate, and Shuckle. In conjunction with Spikes, Mystic Water-boosted Hydro Pump also has a 98.4% chance to 2HKO Primeape, a 97.4% chance to 2HKO Stantler, a 79.5% chance to 2HKO Porygon, a 74.5% chance to 2HKO Arbok, and a 0.1% chance to 2HKO Dunsparce.

Growth + Baton Pass, or GrowthPass for short, is an offensive team archetype in which one attempts to pass Special Attack boosts from one Pokémon to another in order to sweep the opponent. Mantine has notable synergy with the tier's sole GrowthPass user, Flareon. Mantine can switch into the Ground-/Water-type attacks aimed at Flareon, while Flareon has little to fear from the Electric-type attacks aimed at Mantine. Mantine's huge special bulk and defensive typing can be helpful traits for GrowthPass structures, which tend to be relatively flimsy defensively. Mantine's access to Agility can even free up a moveslot for one of its Baton Passing teammates. As a GrowthPass recipient, Mantine can accomplish feats like 2HKOing Chinchou and Kingler with +1 Hidden Power Grass, and 2HKOing Hitmonlee with +1 Hydro Pump, with none of these three examples requiring Spikes. Importantly, Mantine's bulk and offensive coverage remains useful in the event that the Baton Pass chain cannot be carried out successfully.



Mantine @ Mystic Water
Ability: None
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 28 Def
- Hydro Pump
- Blizzard/Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Agility

Have fun, stay hydrated, and don't forget to scout for Hidden Power Electric!

 

[freezingpop87]

Like whenever something goes stale, you must mix things up! (Not milk though please) I'm glad to be back and maybe we can witness the GSC NU revival revival


get outta here with your SUNFLORA antics. gloom is love.

 

[Heracross65]

Is Togetic,Aipom & Yanma are unviable?
Togetic has some minor niches and aipom is fater than ledian as a baton paser

 

[dawnbuster]

Is Togetic,Aipom & Yanma are unviable?
Togetic has some minor niches and aipom is fater than ledian as a baton paser

Yea, these three mons are pretty unviable due to just being outclassed in what they can do.

Yanma has atrocious stats, a mediocre typing for this tier, and an awful movepool. It doesnt beat like anything and there is really no reason to use it.

Togetic is just a worse version of other Normals; its attacking stats are very bad and its movepool is pretty lacking. Curse sets are completely outclassed by Noctowl and potential SunnyBeam stuff just lacks power.

Aipom is definitely the most usable of the three, but is virtually completely outclassed as a Baton Passer by Farfetch’d who can pass Swords Dance in addition to Agility, is Spikes immune, and has an extremely similar stats spread.

 

[Diophantine]

"A set I’ve been using to somewhat decent success on Pidgeot is Return/Substitute/Whirlwind/Curse. With Light Screen+paralysis support, it can be threatening in some games. Whirlwind can phaze other mons and rack up Spikes damage as well which is nice. Definitely gimmicky, but still usable. I think Pidgeot is still not very good though, faces competition from a lot of other mons.

On Noctowl, I think the CurseRestTalk set has solid potential. Noctowl is notably bulkier then a lot of the other Curse normals(Dunsparce, Wigglytuff, Porygon), as Xatu’s Psychic only 5HKOs it. Its also immune to Spikes, which can give it some opportunities to come in and regain its health. The issue I find with Noctowl is that its a lot less immediately threatening than the other Curse normals, which might be annoying in some games. It also faces the same issues the rest do(Rock-types, Magnemite, Haze Weezing, dodging crit Cross Chop from Primeape, although it doesn’t get OHKOd like Wigglytuff)" -Reeece

The last few posts on here have been about my boi Noctowl (a.k.a my favorite early bird pokemon) and that's more than alright by me! But to answer what y'all have been arguing about back and forth with such passion. Yes, this big brain owl can be a threat and a good one at that if given a chance. Having literally used it against legendaries in OU myself I can attest to the fact that it's no pushover.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1004925241

With special defensive bulk basically on par with the likes of pokemon in ubers such as celebi or mew and access to support moves like hypnosis, whirlwind, reflect, mirror move, nightmare, night shade, curse, growl and toxic it can really pull it's weight on a team when handled properly. It may not have the single deepest movepool on the face of the earth but what it does get works for its stats and makes it an effective bird of prey.

Here's the moveset that I used in that replay for anyone interested:


Held Item: Leftovers
-Rest
-Curse
-Whirlwind
-HP Flying/Return

You linked one replay of an OU game with elo rating 1200 where your opponent didn't even use Snorlax or an Electric...

Idk if Noctowl works or not - heck, this set actually seems kinda cool like Kangashkan in OU - but the Flying-type might be a big weakness, as it's weak to Electric/Ice. Stantler gets Roar. Maybe you can try that out? I'm just spitballing here, not actually tried that set; just wanted to make this post to say don't include irrelevant evidence to support a claim.

 

[Blaine500]

You linked one replay of an OU game with elo rating 1200 where your opponent didn't even use Snorlax or an Electric...

Idk if Noctowl works or not - heck, this set actually seems kinda cool like Kangashkan in OU - but the Flying-type might be a big weakness, as it's weak to Electric/Ice. Stantler gets Roar. Maybe you can try that out? I'm just spitballing here, not actually tried that set; just wanted to make this post to say don't include irrelevant evidence to support a claim.

Well yea, you'd obviously would want to get rid of the electrics and Jynx before attempting anything with Noctowl in OU but for what it's worth it can actually take a thunder to the face and live (kinda wacky when you think about it).

Zapdos Thunder vs. Noctowl: 313-368 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In that replay it stood up to Suicune's ice beams for a long time before finally going down and that's what I was mainly showcasing there (i.e its bulk). But anyways, the context here is NU and what can it do in the tier. My logic was merely that if it could withstand such insane attacks in OU amongst such heavy hitters then there's little reason to believe that it couldn't stand its ground quite decently back in the lower tiers.

 

[DiannieRatson]

Not sure where to drop this post but Imma just do it here.

GSC NU Cup Highlight Games Analysis

Estarossa Vs. Arctic gsc nu cup finals second round robin Game 3

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2nu-654946

Game Analysis 1

Persian lead for Estarossa and Arctic chose Sunflora to absorb the Hypnosis. Chinchou was frozen which seems crucial as it is a decent check against Octillery even with the Ice Beam tech. Arctic managed to get Wigglytuff in against Octillery switching out. Estarossa had Pineco set up spikes then later on boomed when Arctic switches Wigglytuff out for Rapidash. But before it boomed, Wigglytuff had set +4 Curse so estarossa had to sac houndour and Xatu.

It eventually led to 3-5 match-up. The next hurdle for estarossa was Arctic's Sunflora which can handle Dugtrio. The rock slide crit was clutch to lower Sunflora's health after it rest and with the help of spikes, Sunflora got worned down. The frozen Chinchou was also sac'd along for momentum at the middle of this battle.

Then, the mind games began as Dugtrio faced Mantine that immunes it earthquake. It was a great play by Estarossa to telepath the switching out of Mantine and managed to help in wearing down opposing Wigglytuff. Dugtrio was sac'd in exchange of lowering Wigglytuff's health to be in range of Persian's D-Edge KO.

Persian swept endgame that led to Estarossa winning this game. The screech move on Persian definitely also helped especially against Graveler. Nice team. I also don't think there's anything Arctic could do to try to win it when Persian is critting and Chinchou was frozen and with other hax too (mainly resttalk rolls too). Estarossa managed to hold on even when down 3-5 because of the early Wigglytuff set.

DiannieRatson Vs neomon gsc nu cup semifinals Game 2

Had to feature neomon too as one of the 3 finalists and I chose the game with me.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-1667277210

First few turns, we tried playing safe. I won't reveal much insight on this since...you know... But anyways, my first bad play was when I tried to go aggro with Gloom setting curse. Neomon was the one who risk to break the safe plays in the beginning as Pineco got para'd. It didn't stop it from setting spikes though.

I went aggro and lost Gloom in the process. I let it take hit from Xatu and Ninetales thinking that they will think I will switch out so they will switch out too but that's not what happened. I overthink that.

Still going full aggro, I also lost Dugtrio to Octillery since I don't have Gloom anymore and spikes is wearing down my team. Then, there was another Wigglytuff vs Dewgong. But then, neomon used that opportunity to Rest up Octillery so my Dugtrio sac'd was wasted.

I switch magnemite in and neomon sac'd ninetales as it was already worned down too. That octillery came in clutch as I lost Xatu too. But still, neomon had a hard time against my Dewgong and thus, neomon boomed with Pineco. But that wasn't enough as Dewgong used Rest while sleeping and it lead to neomon sac-ing the worned down Wigglytuff too. It is now 3-3

Magnemite then won against neomon's poisoned and worned down Xatu. That had me up 3-2. It was Rapidash vs Flareon. Rapidash with D-edge prevailed. Dewgong then fainted Rapidash. But then, Octillery went on to faint Dewgong with crit HP elec 55% damage and won speed tie against Magnemite.

So, neomon won the game.

Xd.

 

[BeeOrSomething]

Like a month ago I made a fake raticate analysis for rubycandy for fun because why not so I'm just gonna put it here to see thoughts
i was probably too kind to it lol


Overview

Raticate is not necessarily a bad pokemon in gsc nu. However, it heavily suffers from the prominence and all around excellence of fearow, stantler, wigglytuff, and even dunsparce and lickitung. Overall, raticate has a really tough time doing well enough to justify its spot on the team in the tier due to this competition, however it does have tools to differentiate itself, notably super fang, utility moves like screech and roar, its xatu and primeape beating speed, and even if it's not special, the all around excellence of normal stab in a tier with so few good normal resists, so if you need something like this, raticate just might be the pokemon for the job.

Wallbreaker
Raticate @ Leftovers / No Item
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk
- Double Edge
- Super Fang
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Screech/Thunder/Roar/Thief/Swagger

Set Details

This is the standard set. Super fang is a phenomenal move, being able to halve the current hp of any pokemon, provided it hits, most notably of pokemon without recovery that might otherwise be able to take advantage of it like stantler and weezing. Stab double edge is also excellent for reasons mentioned before, being that normal resists are scarce and it hits every neutral target for solid damage. Hidden power ground is here to trash magnemite and deal chip damage to sudowoodo and graveler, all 3 of which would otherwise wall raticate. The 4th slot is largely up to personal preference as there’s a pretty broad range of useful moves. Screech is probably by far the most useful, as the relatively consistent lowering of defense stats to help with opposing curse users and force switches with spikes up amplify raticate’s offensive potential and can make it quite valuable in the late game. Thunder hits marginally harder than double edge against super effective targets and can spread annoying paralysis, however it is only marginally and thunder still misses 30% of the time. Roar is similar to screech but harder to pull off, however it could result in a bigger spiral of spikes damage being forced onto your opponent with phazing in pokemon that have unfavorable matchups in a one-on-one scenario. Thief is generally nice for removing leftovers from pokemon that otherwise value it quite highly, such as octillery, and overall making offensive progress with spikes up even easier. Swagger is a move that has been seeing use on dugtrio for its ability to cheese past checks with spikes, substitute, and its speed tier, and while raticate does not utilize sub, it can still very well use spikes, its speed tier, and its very useful super fang and stab double edge to potentially blow past pokemon that try to stop it by confusing them with swagger, though albeit this is again, very luck based.

Usage Tips

As stated many times, raticate absolutely adores spikes, and as spikes should already be on the majority of offensive teams, pineco makes for a perfect pairing with raticate. In addition, while raticate is faster and does heavy damage to fighting types with double edge targeting their lower physical defense, hitmonlee and primeape can still eat a hit and ohko in return with high jump kick and cross chop respectively. As such, raticate highly appreciates xatu, as not only is a great check to fighting types, but it is an absolutely excellent pokemon by itself that should be on most teams. Again, raticate does not like sudowoodo or graveler as hp ground still does relatively minimal damage due to their high defenses, and in the case of sudowoodo, curse. As such, raticate likes pokemon with longevity that can offensively threaten these two pokemon, namely octillery, and to an extent, pokemon like dewgong, dugtrio, and exeggcute. Raticate needs to be brought in carefully in order to maximize its opportunities to fire off moves, as it’s quite frail and lacks resistances due to its normal typing, so you should only bring it in on double switches, revenge kills, or a predicted non-damaging move like rest. Raticate is also walled by pineco, giving up free entry and a subsequent spike, and potentially even explosion and/or rapid spin. Lastly, raticate works quite well on teams with multiple normal types, as they can work together to beat pokemon that would otherwise switch into them quite well, like weezing, and it also allows raticate to be played faster and looser.

 

[FeraSaur]

having acess to screech is a big up for the rat so it can soften the opponent that would otherwise eat its attacks though theif can also cripple bulky mons i would go with screech in the last spot most of the time

 

[FNH]

A Message From the Actual CEO of GSC NU
I, FNH, the CEO of GSC NU, am a messenger sent from the heavens to inspire you fools. ​

This edition of GSC PL, I did not play, but relegated myself to just building teams for the Machamps. Below are the teams I "made". Because I don't remember who came up with what ideas, the writing below seems to indicate everything were my own ideas. Truthfully, none of these teams were solo efforts, thank you to mainly Monai for ideas + feedback + testing the builds (Mr.378, Lax, MrSoup, Siatam and Isa as well, thank you for the feedback). I do hope people will enjoy the 10 teams and ideas that I felt were worth sharing. First 4 teams are teams that saw game time, the rest weren't used, but are stuff I still liked or it showcased interesting ideas. I hope that by sharing teams and sets it will serve as a nice resource and grow interest in the tier. I included short descriptions. Click the sprites for the pokepaste, if you just quickly want to view the team's sets, drop boxes are included.

Team 1:

Hide

Pineco @ Miracle Berry
Ability: No Ability
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin

Gloom @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Moonlight
- Sludge Bomb
- Curse

Chinchou @ Leftovers
Ability: none
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Thunder Wave
- Thunder

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: none
IVs: 26 Def
- Psychic
- Rest
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Sleep Talk

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Rain Dance

Primeape @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder
- Double-Edge
- Cross Chop
- Substitute

Closest I came to a direct counter team. Main idea is to abuse a normal lead such as Persain or Stantler with miracle-berry Pineco, then use your combination of Chinchou and Octillery to break down opponents. Octillery and 3 attacks Chinchou remains one of my favorite pairings in the tier. Rain dance set on Octillery was perhaps a bit to creative. Gloom is a defensive buffer preventing opposing thunders from causing difficulty. Primeape was slotted specifically to better a MU vs our opponent who like to use normal types a lot. I try not to comment on opponents or the games, but its ironic that we expected to face a few normal's but didnt bring a normal resist such as Sudowoodo.

Team 2:

Hide

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Magmar
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk / 26 Def
- Cross Chop
- Thunder Punch
- Fire Blast
- Thief

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Psychic
- Haze
- Drill Peck
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Porygon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

Dugtrio @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Substitute
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Screech

Kingler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Swords Dance
- Double-Edge
- Substitute
- Surf

Very similar to a old team of mine, expect Porygon is added over Gloom for better over all bulk, Bolt beam coverage, and t-wave support. This change does make you worse vs fighting spams though. Magmar is an interesting mon. It has neat prefect coverage + great stats, so there isn't much in the tier that wants to deal with it. Its a ideal choice if you are looking for something destructive. The only thing I don't like about this offense in particular is the lack of explosion. Simple idea, simple team, play aggressive; use Magmar, Kingler, and Octillery to break down opponents, clean late with Dugtrio. Don't fret over defense, if you're playing reactively you are most likely going to lose.

Team 3:

Hide

Primeape @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Cross Chop
- Substitute
- Double-Edge
- Meditate

Kingler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
Happiness: 0
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk
- Double-Edge
- Surf
- Substitute
- Swords Dance

Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder
- Sludge Bomb
- Explosion
- Haze

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Houndour @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Fire Blast
- Flamethrower

Gloom @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk
- Moonlight
- Curse
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Sludge Bomb

Really happy with this team, so much so we used it twice. Generally seemed that people used Xatu to deal with a Kingler since Weezing wasn't all present, so we fit Houndour + Kingler. Added a Thunder Primeape which fit effortlessly to further capitalize on a pursuited Xatu. Nothing else is out of the ordinary. I really enjoyed the synergy of Gloom + Houndor, since Xatu is no longer free switch on Gloom. Team can have bad mu’s on Toxic Ninetales given that Kingler is probably going to get poisoned.

Team 4:

Hide

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Gloom @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 28 Def
- Sludge Bomb
- Moonlight
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Sleep Powder

Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
- Explosion

Primeape @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder
- Cross Chop
- Double-Edge
- Substitute

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Magnemite @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 26 Def
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Another Primeape team. This team started as an ambitious project of fitting together 4 top tier attackers: Stantler Primeape Kingler and Magmar. As I lost test games, it slowly became more and more sane (I still kept losing though). The build mellowed out to a defensive trio I like to use a lot of Gloom, Octillery, and Xatu. Since everyone was spamming normal types, we decided team would be particularly safe vs them, so I went for a double resist via Sudowodoo and Magnemite. Pineco was pretty free on Gloom, but I ran sleep to help keeps spikes out longer (which failed vs a Miracle Berry pineco ._.), and give a last resort vs things like light screen Stantler. Same Primeape set as always. Weezing was a last minute change to this team after Monai ran into some troublesome Mu's in test games. That said Sudowoodo is a viable replacement if you would like a solid normal resist.

Team 5:

Hide

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Reflect
- Flamethrower
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Stantler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
Happiness: 0
- Frustration
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Light Screen
- Surf
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Pineco @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Explosion

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunder
- Haze
- Pain Split

I can't say this team is mine, its actually a team made by Siatam a while back, I just changed one mon and reorganized. I'm quite surprised that old team is not in the samples. It's still a very consistent build. Just uses screen support to get Stantler in safely and generate a safe curse boost. Once spike is up, you should be able to break down opponents over the long haul. Pretty simple but slow strategy. Keep screens up, get spikes up, use Stantler. Wigglytuff is still very viable over Stantler, although its less immediately threatening to opponents.

Team 6:

Hide

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Reflect
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Dewgong @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Encore
- Protect

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 26 Def
- Psychic
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Graveler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Rapid Spin
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Curse
- Explosion

Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Spikeless curse wigglytuff build. I went through this "phase" of trying to get fatter encore Dewgong teams to work, as a counter measure to the influx of Non rest talk Stantler. I reasoned Stantler could never safely get a curse off on a well played encore Dewgong, and toxic + protect would be enough to stall it out (the Stantler set I refer too set doesn't run rest). Ninetales, Octillery, and Xatu is the main defensive core. The three pose a really good defensive trio, that doesn't suffer from being to passive while having answers to most threats in the metagame. We aren't using spikes which I think is fine here, but I also didn't want to have to play vs them, so I ran Graveler over Sudowoodo for spin support while giving me a pretty decent normal resist. Also have a version with Stantler > Wigglytuff. Pretty different mons, but Stantler's more immediate pressure and potential for mind games can be useful.

Team 7:

Hide

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Reflect
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Stantler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
Happiness: 0
- Earthquake
- Frustration
- Protect
- Curse

Gloom @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Stun Spore
- Moonlight
- Sludge Bomb
- Curse

Gastly
Ability: No Ability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Explosion
- Thunder
- Thief
- Psychic

Pineco @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic
- Explosion

Dewgong @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Another attempt to work with encore Dewgong. The addition of Gastly and the lack of Xatu is what makes this team interesting. Five of the Pokemon are pretty standard additions for my slower/fatter teams. I am big fan of reflect Ninetales. Can be quite annoying vs a lot of Mu's and give your team room to mitigate physical threats. I am unsure if this is the ideal Stantler set here. I think a good alternative is the non-curse rest talk set (only viable if you are playing spike IMO). Gastly definitely has a niche in the tier, especially if you are expecting mono attacking normals, while also being annoying for fighting types to get around. The ghost typing perfectly filled our perceived weakness like Fighting STAB's and mono attack normals (it was a Siatam suggestion to add Gastly).

Team 8:

Hide

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Chinchou @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave

Sudowoodo @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Self-Destruct

Kingler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf
- Body Slam
- Swords Dance
- Substitute

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Primeape @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Cross Chop
- Double-Edge
- Thunder
- Substitute

This was another attempt at Kingler build, while simultaneously fitting Sudowoodo into teams as well. Chinchou is annoying into this, so might need to hide a HP grass or ground somewhere. you could also trade sudo vs it I guess. Its pretty soft vs Dugtrio, though Surf Kingler is short term remedy, Primeape can take some hits as well, and Xatu can kinda beat Dugtrio with out rockslide flinches, if I remember correctly. I enjoyed the combination of Sudowoodo and Chinchou, since opposing Octillery’s and other waters abuse Ninetales and Sudowoodo, but Chinchou abuses Octillery and other bulky waters. This should be able to generate free turns for Chinchou to fire off Thunders. Ninetales, Xatu, and Sudowoodo help with Weezing. Thunder Primeape can also smash Xatu switch in's and para Weezing which helps itself and Kingler. If you are versus a Dugtrio team, just try to win before they do lol.

Team 9:

Hide

Hitmonlee (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- High Jump Kick
- Body Slam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Kingler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf
- Substitute
- Double-Edge
- Swords Dance

Stantler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
Happiness: 0
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Light Screen
- Curse

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Sudowoodo @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Self-Destruct
- Curse

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Surf
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This team is a combination of building Sudowoodo teams and stacking attackers that I mention above in the descriptions of teams 4 and 8. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get Primeape to fit while having a thunder absorbing option. Thus we opted for a rest talk Hitmonlee. Thats not to say Hitmonlee is a legit thunder sponge; it will be asleep all game if you run into Chinchou or Magnemite. Stantler + Kingler is interesting. In my mind they sort of beat up the same stuff so there was potential to overload your opponents resists.

Team 10:

Hide

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Reflect
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Dewgong @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Toxic
- Ice Beam
- Encore
- Protect

Sudowoodo @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Curse
- Self-Destruct

Pineco @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Explosion

Stantler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
Happiness: 0
- Sleep Talk
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Frustration

I added this team last because its probably the trickiest to play, possibly the worse one posted. It runs no legitimate fighting resist (I guess pineco...), but instead relies on reflect spamming to mitigate a Primeape. I thought it has some more interesting ideas to showcase. As said above non curse 2 attack Stantler is viable with spike (I believe so at least), and Sudowoodo is much more threatening with spike. This team was another off shoot of trying to use encore Dewgong to deal with the offensive Stantlers and Sudowoodo to deal with other normals. Unsure if Azumarill over octillery is a better option. Stantler definately likes light screen, but I also feel as if you need Octillery's stronger output. I am uncertain if reflect is a great long term option here to prevent Normals like Stantler or Primeape/Hitmonlee from gg'ing you though. Weezing > Sudowoodo might be the better option here for its better general presence, although the team loses its normal resist.

Some Sets and thoughts and take aways on the tier:
​

Hide Primeape @ Leftovers Ability: No Ability - Thunder - Cross Chop - Double-Edge - Substitute Re highlight this set. We used this set almost every game. It is not mine though. Earthworm made it. Thunder is really good for the 2hko on xatu + added benefit of the paras. Best Primeape set in my opinion​

Hide Hitmonlee (M) @ Leftovers Ability: No Ability Happiness: 0 - Rapid Spin - High Jump Kick - Meditate - Frustration Only one real spiker in the tier, but good spinners are just as few and far between. I made this set for a team I didn't post that really just needed a spin option.​

Hide Dugtrio @ Leftovers Ability: No Ability - Earthquake - Rock Slide - Swagger - Substitute Swagger over the more standard screech isn't a terrible option on Dugtrio who commonly gets blocked by bulky special attackers. ZF was the first I saw use this set.​

Hide Magnemite @ Leftovers Ability: No Ability IVs: 26 Def - Agility - Thunder - Hidden Power [Ice] - Protect Also not in an included team. i ran this one a very offensive build. Mag's biggest issue is its speed (well its frail as well), but i think agility can work with its already great special attack and strong stab​

Hide Primeape @ Miracle Berry Ability: No Ability - Thief - Double-Edge - Thunder - Cross Chop A little to creative and memey. Lots of Persian hypnosis leads, so I thought this Primeape set as a lead could be cute. can also be nice as a one time sleep absorb. Hitting two hypnos back to back is difficult. the best lead to counter Persain lead is just miracle Pineco tbh.​

Hide Chinchou @ Leftovers Ability: none - Ice Beam - Surf - Thunder Wave - Thunder Posted in the 1st team, but would like to highlight that this is a very viable set, and from what I'm aware most people still prefer rest talk. I think this in combination with Octillery can really let you get the most out of your Chinchou's excellent coverage while you let Octillery pick up the defensive slack. 3 attacks octillery is also not bad, but if i had to choose, I would go with Chinchou for STAB thunder and better speed.​

• For the teams we actually used: overall bulkier and slower teams fell out of favor for us in lieu of more offensively oriented teams. I did toy with a lot of slower builds, but in the end we opted for the more direct offensive or balanced builds. There are lots of relatively powerful presence's in the tier, some of which felt underutilized. My perception was that normal types such as Persian and Stantler were used more and more, which pushed the teams we made to be centered around Primeape or Kingler, accommodated by defensive options to further mitigate a curse spam. Kingler also felt underused overall. Once again, this only based on what I saw and remembered.​
• Defense team back bone of Octillery + Xatu + Thunder absorb (Ninetales or gloom mainly) works to well to often.​
• Doesn't hurt to have Xatu, but not every team needs a Xatu.​
• Octillery is the 2nd best mon in the tier. There is little to no reason to not use it. fits effortlessly on just about every team.​
• Stantler seems to keep getting better and better. Earthquake + Frustration is very strong, but so is the mono attacking set! Curse-less is only viable with spikes.​
• Shuckle could be an answer moving forward to stopping all the normal types? Encore toxic set maybe?​
• Finding ways to stack Thunder's is always good, even if its non STAB.​
• Porygon is good and something I was unaware of until this edition, especially set that Lax used week 1. Really good defensive mon + bolt beam coverage. (Team 2)​
• Pineco miracle lead has a lot of viability vs opposing sleep leads like Persain (Team 1).​
• I think Baton Pass wasn't used enough (we did not use it ._.). I did put some effort into being safe vs it, but also decided forgo hard answers to it in some teams. There is more then Flareon pass, Ledian passing speed to Lickitung can be a instant GG moment. Araidos can play sticky web shenanigans as well. Farfetch'd can pass attack and speed. Plenty of options that don't seem to be explored at the moment.​
• USE MORE PRIMEAPE. Kingler and Primeape are the two best attackers in the tier. Primeape is pretty free to add to teams as well. I didnt use it enough.​
• Persian is overused, hypnosis leads are overrated in general. I also hate Fearow, it just never seems to do much, and loses far too often.​
• primeape is slept on, I already said that though.​

I'm not Earthworm. Nothing I say is absolute. So feel free to comment and critique, I'll be around to reply. Nothing above is perfect so there is plenty of material to pick apart. If you think a team sucks, then let me know!

- FNH, CEO of GSC NU
​

 

[BeeOrSomething]

Pupitar is a good pokemon in GSC NU.

I would argue it's better than a LOT of pokemon in gsc nu, in fact. It's absolutely miles better than pokemon like rapidash and azumarill and in my opinion better than houndour, gloom, exeggcute, ledian, graveler, raticate, noctowl, etc. What doesn't seem impressive are the pokemon I've listed that it's better then. After all, most of these are like semi-shitmons with a handful of good traits that lets them be ok (except rapidash it's dogshit). However, where pupitar ends up is roughly B-B+ tier (I was kind to it and put it in B+). That's pretty good. It's in the same range of pokemon like porygon and dragonair, which are both quite good. Why? After all, isn't pupitar just hopelessly outclassed by pokemon like dugtrio, sudowoodo, and graveler, and forever doomed to thud into octillery and take way too much damage trying to switch in on fearow and magnemite and weezing with spikes up? To an extent, some of this is true. After all, pupitar is only around B tier, it's no world-beater, and like I said similar viability to a whole bunch of semi-shitmons like houndour and exeggcute. However, I believe pupitar does have a collection of valuable traits that lets it be a solid, legitimately viable pokemon in this tier, not some completely random pile of ass that people clown on. I made this post because I have been seeing a good bit of pupitar disrespect recently and I want to put that notion aside and show people the light of pupitar. Shoutouts to Freezingpop for literally inventing this thing and Earthworm and Dawn for helping to spread awareness of it (watch Dawn’s YouTube video btw)

Why Pupitar is Good in GSC NU
The main appeal to pupitar is its blending of a wide variety of traits from the several aforementioned rock and ground types.
Namely, these traits are:
- Sits at a comfortable 200 speed
- Normal Resist
- Electric Immunity
- Fire Resist
- Poison Resist
- Ground Stab
- Access to screech
- Higher attack stat than dugtrio
- Decent special defense
- Access to both rock slide and ancient power

Why this combination of traits is valuable i.e. what justification is there to using pupitar over the other ground and (mostly) rock types
First of all, probably the absolute biggest reason to use pupitar is the speed. Otherwise, graveler would usually be better, as it has the same typing but better physical stats and access to rapid spin and explosion. Grav sits at an agonizingly slow speed of 168, which is slower than everything viable in this tier besides pineco and sudowoodo. Pupitar meanwhile has a respectable speed tier of 200, allowing it to outspeed magnemite, octillery, wigglytuff, porygon, sudowoodo, and more. It is really hard to not understate how absolutely crucial it is that pupitar can outspeed octillery and magnemite. It changes pupitar so much and close to single-handedly makes it arguably better than graveler, especially when not in need of rapid spin. On multiple occasions I've tried building with graveler and just dropping it for pupitar because of how much I wanted the speed for magnemite and octillery.
Speaking of magnemite, pupitar's solid special defense allows it to be a very solid check to mag, letting it very comfortably dodge a 2hko from hp ice and outspeeding and ohko'ing it with stab earthquake, and pupitar sits decently close to dodging 3hko meaning that if magnemite ever clicks thunder instead of hidden power ice, and it definitely will want to so you can't just punish it by switching into something like a fire, a fighter, or stantler, pupitar will be out of range of hp ice and mag will have to try another time, and again every time pupitar comes in magnemite has to switch or it will just be destroyed by earthquake. As for stuff that isn't magnemite (I probably talked about it a bit much but I felt it was important because of how hard magnemite is to switch into safely), pupitar has enough special defense (very comparable to sudowoodo actually which is known for being surprisingly decent in terms of taking special hits) to being able to take psychics from xatu (primarily hp electric variants just use your oct/gong for ice variants) and fire type moves, even those boosted by stab.
Now, of course, you think: "well, can't I just switch into my water type and threaten pupitar out?" No. No you cannot. Not safely at least. The three primary waters in this tier (azumarill is balls) are octillery, dewgong, and chinchou. Octillery as I've stated many times already is outsped by pupitar, and furthermore despite being seemingly good enough to take pupitar on just like it does to dugtrio takes a LOT of damage from earthquake.

Calcs

HP Electric
Pupitar Earthquake vs. Octillery: 115-136 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 41.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pupitar Earthquake vs. Octillery: 115-136 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Ice Beam
Pupitar Earthquake vs. Octillery: 115-136 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pupitar Earthquake vs. Octillery: 115-136 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile, Dewgong is weak to pupitar's rock moves and chinchou is weak to earthquake. I really do think this illustrates the power of pupitar. This is serious damage. And, of course, as octillery is tasked with checking a wide amount of pokemon and it being so good in general, as well as the prominence of spikes, octillery will not be fully healthy that much and pupitar feasts even more.
Why is screech good? As seen with dugtrio, it forces a lot of damage on the opponent through direct attacks on the defense dropped pokemon and through spikes because the opponent will inevitably be switching around a lot as they likely won't want to take effectively +2 stab earthquakes and rock slides. The other very nice thing screech does is remove defense boosts from curse, allowing pupitar to actually beat pokemon like curse wiggly and curse porygon and, if needed, lower the defenses of curse stantler despite tanking a big eq so you can finish it off. Screech also can occasionally do a cool thing and be clicked as octillery comes in, allowing you to potentially beat it one on one if it is asleep (primarily the hp elec variants tho staying in on the ice beam variants is a bit risky).
The rock moves are of course also quite nice. Rock in general is a good attacking type in this tier, not being resisted by too much and hitting super effectively the likes of xatu, fearow, dewgong, and fire types, albeit being held back often by octillery and somewhat dugtrio, though of course pupitar does not have this issue. Rock slide is the strongest rock type move in gsc and comes with a potentially very dangerous 30% flinch rate. Ancient power meanwhile is quite nice to click on switches where you're given a free turn and lets you fish for a 10% omniboost that can let pupitar potentially just kill everything and win the game. And hey, if fishing for freeze with ice beam is legitimate, why not ancient power?

All in all, pupitar is good in gsc nu for a variety of reasons, namely its unique blend of great traits as I'm sure I've emphasized enough. It is a rock type that can threaten octillery without exploding and is immune to electric and has stab on earthquake, it is a ground type that resists normal and fire and has stab on its rock moves, and it can tank special hits pretty well. There's always of course also the cheese factor. I hope people stop disrespecting the pup, I really do think it's good. Happy pupitar'ing!

 

[Blaine500]

Pupitar is a good pokemon in GSC NU.

I would argue it's better than a LOT of pokemon in gsc nu, in fact. It's absolutely miles better than pokemon like rapidash and azumarill and in my opinion better than houndour, gloom, exeggcute, ledian, graveler, raticate, noctowl, etc. What doesn't seem impressive are the pokemon I've listed that it's better than. After all, most of these are like semi-shitmons with a handful of good traits that lets them be ok (except rapidash it's dogshit). However, where pupitar ends up is roughly B-B+ tier (I was kind to it and put it in B+). That's pretty good. It's in the same range of pokemon like porygon and dragonair, which are both quite good. Why? After all, isn't pupitar just hopelessly outclassed by pokemon like dugtrio, sudowoodo, and graveler, and forever doomed to thud into octillery and take way too much damage trying to switch in on fearow and magnemite and weezing with spikes up? To an extent, some of this is true. After all, pupitar is only around B tier, it's no world-beater, and like I said similar viability to a whole bunch of semi-shitmons like houndour and exeggcute. However, I believe pupitar does have a collection of valuable traits that lets it be a solid, legitimately viable pokemon in this tier, not some completely random pile of ass that people clown on. I made this post because I have been seeing a good bit of pupitar disrespect recently and I want to put that notion aside and show people the light of pupitar. Shoutouts to Freezingpop for literally inventing this thing and Earthworm and Dawn for helping to spread awareness of it.

Why Pupitar is Good in GSC NU
The main appeal to pupitar is its blending of a wide variety of traits from the several aforementioned rock and ground types.
Namely, these traits are:
- Sits at a comfortable 200 speed
- Normal Resist
- Electric Immunity
- Fire Resist
- Poison Resist
- Ground Stab
- Access to screech
- Higher attack stat than dugtrio
- Decent special defense
- Access to both rock slide and ancient power

Why this combination of traits is valuable i.e. what justification is there to using pupitar over the other ground and (mostly) rock types
First of all, probably the absolute biggest reason to use pupitar is the speed. Otherwise, graveler would usually be better, as it has the same typing but better physical stats and access to rapid spin and explosion. Grav sits at an agonizingly slow speed of 168, which is slower than everything viable in this tier besides pineco and sudowoodo. Pupitar meanwhile has a respectable speed tier of 200, allowing it to outspeed magnemite, octillery, wigglytuff, porygon, sudowoodo, and more. It is really hard to not understate how absolutely crucial it is that pupitar can outspeed octillery and magnemite. It changes pupitar so much and close to single-handedly makes it arguably better than graveler, especially when not in need of rapid spin. On multiple occasions I've tried building with graveler and just dropping it for pupitar because of how much I wanted the speed for magnemite and octillery.
Speaking of magnemite, pupitar's solid special defense allows it to be a very solid check to mag, letting it very comfortably dodge a 2hko from hp ice and outspeeding and ohko'ing it with stab earthquake, and pupitar sits decently close to dodging 3hko meaning that if magnemite ever clicks thunder instead of hidden power ice, and it definitely will want to so you can't just punish it by switching into something like a fire, a fighter, or stantler, pupitar will be out of range of hp ice and mag will have to try another time, and again every time pupitar comes in magnemite has to switch or it will just be destroyed by earthquake. As for stuff that isn't magnemite (I probably talked about it a bit much but I felt it was important because of how hard magnemite is to switch into safely), pupitar has enough special defense (very comparable to sudowoodo actually which is known for being surprisingly decent in terms of taking special hits) to being able to take psychics from xatu (primarily hp electric variants just use your oct/gong for ice variants) and fire type moves, even those boosted by stab.
Now, of course, you think: "well, can't I just switch into my water type and threaten pupitar out?" No. No you cannot. Not safely at least. The three primary waters in this tier (azumarill is balls) are octillery, dewgong, and chinchou. Octillery as I've stated many times already is outsped by pupitar, and furthermore despite being seemingly good enough to take pupitar on just like it does to dugtrio takes a LOT of damage from earthquake.

Calcs

Pupitar Earthquake vs. Octillery: 115-136 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- 41.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pupitar Earthquake vs. Octillery: 115-136 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Pupitar Earthquake vs. Octillery: 115-136 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pupitar Earthquake vs. Octillery: 115-136 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile, Dewgong is weak to pupitar's rock moves and chinchou is weak to earthquake. I really do think this illustrates the power of pupitar. This is serious damage. And, of course, as octillery is tasked with checking a wide amount of pokemon and it being so good in general, as well as the prominence of spikes, octillery will not be fully healthy that much and pupitar feasts even more.
Why is screech good? As seen with dugtrio, it forces a lot of damage on the opponent through direct attacks on the defense dropped pokemon and through spikes because the opponent will inevitably be switching around a lot as they likely won't want to take effectively +2 stab earthquakes and rock slides. The other very nice thing screech does is remove defense boosts from curse, allowing pupitar to actually beat pokemon like curse wiggly and curse porygon and, if needed, lower the defenses of curse stantler despite tanking a big eq so you can finish it off. Screech also can occasionally do a cool thing and be clicked as octillery comes in, allowing you to potentially beat it one on one if it is asleep (primarily the hp elec variants tho staying in on the ice beam variants is a bit risky).
The rock moves are of course also quite nice. Rock in general is a good attacking type in this tier, not being resisted by too much and hitting super effectively the likes of xatu, fearow, dewgong, and fire types, albeit being held back often by octillery and somewhat dugtrio, though of course pupitar does not have this issue. Rock slide is the strongest rock type move in gsc and comes with a potentially very dangerous 30% flinch rate. Ancient power meanwhile is quite nice to click on switches where you're given a free turn and lets you fish for a 10% omniboost that can let pupitar potentially just kill everything and win the game. And hey, if fishing for freeze with ice beam is legitimate, why not ancient power?

All in all, pupitar is good in gsc nu for a variety of reasons, namely its unique blend of great traits as I'm sure I've emphasized enough. It is a rock type that can threaten octillery without exploding and is immune to electric and has stab on earthquake, it is a ground type that resists normal and fire, and it can tank special hits pretty well. There's always of course also the cheese factor. I hope people stop disrespecting the pup, I really do think it's good. Happy pupitar'ing!

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here except the part about Rapidash being dogshit. It's quite good in the right hands if I do say so myself. If being the fastest fire type in the entire game wasn't good enough for you it also boast access to a crucial sleep inducing move. This mind you, while being 100% capable of running a mixed set with things such as Double Kick to allow Hidden Power to be freed up for other things. I've even used this hellish unicorn before in a OU tour to great effect!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1588660874-ey26hk05l2x7miy3glabivoriwbxqn4pw

Please don't underestimate the horsepower, it's the favored by the President of the Pokémon Fan Club for a reason you know ;)