Has anybody theorycrafted a rain HO? Obviously GSC is pretty fat but pineco + explosion offense with rain dance kingdra + supporting waters/rain dancers seems pretty good.
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Lower Tiers GSC NU Discussion
- Thread starter Earthworm
- Start date
Rain Teams are actually a fairly good and reliable strategy.The main abusers for rain are Seadra,Chinchou and Elekid offensively and defensively Pineco is now able to eat a Rapidash Fire Blast and Explode back on it and.For supporters Wigglytuff is a good Rain Setter as is Seadra itself as it can start nuking shit right off the bat
here is a good example of a rain HO team
https://pokepast.es/4e737afa9f309627
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I did, I tested a Rain team like CentaurMM6's with Seadra + Chinchou + Dragonair against Earthworm (no Octillery though), and it completely fell flat against RestTalk Chinchou. Plenty of NU teams run that, so it seems like a very bad idea to bank on not running into Chinchou. Especially with HP Electric on Seadra & Octillery over HP Grass.
Any thoughts on using Gastly or Cubone in the tier?
For reference after a SD Cubone can OHKO Xatu with Rockslide or a Guaranteed 2HKO without. Meanwhile Xatu has a 79.7% to 2HKO with psychic. If you can switch in on the rest, or when Xatu is at sub-50%, you have a solid chance to beat Xatu with Cubone.
For reference after a SD Cubone can OHKO Xatu with Rockslide or a Guaranteed 2HKO without. Meanwhile Xatu has a 79.7% to 2HKO with psychic. If you can switch in on the rest, or when Xatu is at sub-50%, you have a solid chance to beat Xatu with Cubone.
Cubone is actually the best Baton Pass recipent in the tier.Nothing is able to defeat a Cubone with Plus 2 speed and attack.Aside from Baton Pass Cubone still has sky high attack and I’ve used it as a slow wall breaker for Pokémon like Graveler and Sudowoodo.Just like JoltWack is in OU,FatchedBone is in NU
Gastly is actually a fairly good Pokémon.Its main niche is its typing,it is the only Ghost type in the entire tier which makes it immune to the Explosion and means there’s some Pokémon like Curse Wigglytuff that just can’t hurt it at all and.Its one of the best Thief users imo and Explosion is always wonderful even if it’s on a 35 Attack Pokémon.Its best used late game with its sky high special attack,Great Coverage and decent speed letting it Thunder away at Dewgongs.It also has some other options such as Hypnosis if you want to use it as a lead,Haze for Curse users or Destiny Bond
Woah using the sticky duck in gen 2 as a passer? What would you be able to set up against? Even Pineco can just explode on the pass and wreak Cubone.
What about Ariados? It is a bit bulkier, or is the weakness to fire types too risky? Also would Fetch try to pass a single agility or 2? What about Agility and a SD?
Ariados is another good baton passer however it trades being able to pass Swords Dance and Subsitute for passing Spider Webs making to more of a fringe pick imo.The nasty fire weakness really doesn’t help either.Also about the Agility twice thing only do it if you can and if the opponent has a Dugtrio as it is the only Pokémon that outspeds a +2 Cubone.Swords Dancing with Farfetched is also not as mandatory because you just pass a Sub and let Cubone do the Swords Dancing
Interesting. I assumed that Cubone would still get outspeed due to its shit speed stat of 35 but I guess the generation and meta are slow enough. Dugtrio outspeeds by only 2 after an agility boost xD
So I’m thinking of a team with Xatu, Flareon, Pineco, Farfetch’d, Cubone, and Gastly. Any suggestions or things I should look out for?
Rapidash is a big threat to that team from the lead slot.It beats Fetched,Gastly and Flareon in a 1on1 because of Hypnosis and Double Edge.I actually recommend replacing Pineco with Dugtrio to help with Rapidash and to have just another good offensive Pokémon because Xatu,Flareon and Dugtrio is a strong offensive core(Outside of Dewgong).Dewgong is another threat to that team. I suggest a Chinchou instead of Gastly,It deals with Rapidash very well thanks to ReatTalk being its best set and covers up your water type weakness pretty well.Aside from that the team looks pretty good
Here is my take on the Agility passers in NU:
Ledian is probably the best BPer with access to all three of Agility, Light Screen, and Barrier to really set up the recipient. It also has good SpDef and base Speed. However, while they aren't too common, it can't do anything against hazers and phazers besides set up LS.
Ariados has some very interesting options aside from Agility like Spider Web and Protect Disable to allow it to potentially beat phazers and hazers. It has decent attacking stats so it can potentially try to deal damage itself if it forgoes Protect Disable.
Farfetch'd has both Agility and Swords Dance as mentioned above. It has very poor stats but SD alongside Normal STAB gives it a chance to fight any phazers that might try to stop it and also opens up more recipients like Primeape, Dugtrio, Persian, Sneasel, and Fearow which don't need a speed pass as much. If you can anticipate what the opponent will respond to Farfetch'd with, you can typically make a move that addresses it, which is Farfetch'd's main advantage.
Aipom is probably the worst of the four, although it has Normal STAB and decent stats so it can hit things reasonably hard instead of immediately setting up, which could throw opponents off. It has some oddball options like Counter and Protect Spite available though, so it isn't completely outclassed.
Ledian is probably the best BPer with access to all three of Agility, Light Screen, and Barrier to really set up the recipient. It also has good SpDef and base Speed. However, while they aren't too common, it can't do anything against hazers and phazers besides set up LS. Ariados has some very interesting options aside from Agility like Spider Web and Protect Disable to allow it to potentially beat phazers and hazers. It has decent attacking stats so it can potentially try to deal damage itself if it forgoes Protect Disable. Farfetch'd has both Agility and Swords Dance as mentioned above. It has very poor stats but SD alongside Normal STAB gives it a chance to fight any phazers that might try to stop it and also opens up more recipients like Primeape, Dugtrio, Persian, Sneasel, and Fearow which don't need a speed pass as much. If you can anticipate what the opponent will respond to Farfetch'd with, you can typically make a move that addresses it, which is Farfetch'd's main advantage. Aipom is probably the worst of the four, although it has Normal STAB and decent stats so it can hit things reasonably hard instead of immediately setting up, which could throw opponents off. It has some oddball options like Counter and Protect Spite available though, so it isn't completely outclassed.
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What would a good Baton Pass centered team look like?
Sevi 7
Semi-retired
So I've played a couple of games with this Baton Pass team. I had Cubone as the 6th, but I don't like it. It doesn't do enough on its own and needs too much support. I'm not really familiar enough or good enough with the tier to say if this team is good or not, but I think a good wall breaker would be really good for this team. Bulky mons give it some trouble and I think a wall breaker in the last spot would be great. I'm thinking Octillery, but I have no idea. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Octillery is a good bet, though I could also see Magmar or Lickitung working. Another option is BD Poliwhirl and dropping either EQ or hypnosis for surf so it can benefit from growth passes.
I got another good time id like to share with everyone.Its more fun and unique then the other own I posted around the week ago
https://pokepast.es/882e9d7648ef9486
Venomoth
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore
Sludge Bomb
Psychic
Venomoth is another Pokemon Ive grown fond of recently as a good lead.Access to Sleep Powder,Stun Spore and a good speed stat makes it able to get a sleep off quite often(except when the opponenet has a Rapidash leadXD).Its Sludge Bomb also is actually quite a strong attack 3HKOing Chinchou is a pretty good trait and helps Azumarill out and leaving Chou in Dugtrio range is great aswell.In addition Stun Spore is really nice after something else has been slept
Azumarill
Item Leftovers
Moves
Whirlpool
Perish Song
Protect
Rest
Azumarill is this teams bulky water type and it has the role of beating most stall teams.Pokemon like Xatu,Flareon,Shuckle and Dewgong are complete bait for Azumarill to come in and trap and KO easily.Protect is primarily there for stalling out Perish Song turns but its nice for Exploders such as Pineco as the might try to explode on you and giving more Leftovers recovery and Rest is there for when you are on low health or you have been Toxicd.Azumarill is one of the most important members of the team as Dewgong going down really helps Dugtrio and Flareon.
Wigglytuff
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Double Edge
Thunder Wave
Curse
Rest
Wigglytuff is overall one of the best Pokemon in GSC NU being able to fit on almost every kind of team and having good potential to do something in atleast every battle it is in.Thunder Wave is this sets main attraction as this team is kind off on the slow side and makes setting up Curses quite a bit easier to do.After one Curse nothing except the rocks and Gastly wants to take a Double Edge and Resting is easy to pull off thanks to the defense boosts and good special bulk.Wigglytuff deals well with threats to this team such as Chinchou,Xatu,Fearow,Flareon,Dewgong and Octillery.
Dugtrio
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Double Edge
Substitute
Dugtrio has fallen off after Raichu was banned from the tier,but it is still an amazing late game cleaner.Dugtrio is the fastest Pokemon in the entire tier so it is hard to reliably revenge kill Dug because it will hit you with a powerful Earthquake,or a Rock Slide if you are a flying type.Substitute is also a fantastic move on Dugtrio because of its amazing speed letting it scout whatever the opponent will try to pull on you.Dugtrios main role is the teams revenge killer and late game cleaner
Flareon
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Fire Blast
Growth
Substitue
Hidden Power Grass
Flareon is the teams setup wallbreaker and it serves as a great special tank.Most people tend to run Baton Pass instead of Substitute however this team really doesnt need special attack passed as it is mostly physical.Flareon is a great Pokemon in GSC NU just because of its stats alone(Highest BST Total in the tier).Flareon really suprises Graveler that switch in because of HP Grass and its Fire Blast absolutely nukes anything else after a single Growth.If you really want you can put HP Water instead of Grass but I dont reccomend that because of the bulk loss
Bayleef
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Leech Seed
Giga Drain
Synthesis
Light Screen
Bayleef is the absolute hardest counter to Chinchou who deals well with a good few members of this team.It is also a great check to Pokemon like Sneasel,Xatu,Graveler,Sudowoodo,Non Ice Beam Octillery,Kingler and Dugtrio.Bayleefs accses to reliable recovery makes it able to stick around for most of the game And Leech Seed and Giga Drain just improve the health being restored.Bayleef is a truely underatted Pokemon in the metagame who I belive should see much more usage than it gets
https://pokepast.es/882e9d7648ef9486
Venomoth
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore
Sludge Bomb
Psychic
Venomoth is another Pokemon Ive grown fond of recently as a good lead.Access to Sleep Powder,Stun Spore and a good speed stat makes it able to get a sleep off quite often(except when the opponenet has a Rapidash leadXD).Its Sludge Bomb also is actually quite a strong attack 3HKOing Chinchou is a pretty good trait and helps Azumarill out and leaving Chou in Dugtrio range is great aswell.In addition Stun Spore is really nice after something else has been slept
Azumarill
Item Leftovers
Moves
Whirlpool
Perish Song
Protect
Rest
Azumarill is this teams bulky water type and it has the role of beating most stall teams.Pokemon like Xatu,Flareon,Shuckle and Dewgong are complete bait for Azumarill to come in and trap and KO easily.Protect is primarily there for stalling out Perish Song turns but its nice for Exploders such as Pineco as the might try to explode on you and giving more Leftovers recovery and Rest is there for when you are on low health or you have been Toxicd.Azumarill is one of the most important members of the team as Dewgong going down really helps Dugtrio and Flareon.
Wigglytuff
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Double Edge
Thunder Wave
Curse
Rest
Wigglytuff is overall one of the best Pokemon in GSC NU being able to fit on almost every kind of team and having good potential to do something in atleast every battle it is in.Thunder Wave is this sets main attraction as this team is kind off on the slow side and makes setting up Curses quite a bit easier to do.After one Curse nothing except the rocks and Gastly wants to take a Double Edge and Resting is easy to pull off thanks to the defense boosts and good special bulk.Wigglytuff deals well with threats to this team such as Chinchou,Xatu,Fearow,Flareon,Dewgong and Octillery.
Dugtrio
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Double Edge
Substitute
Dugtrio has fallen off after Raichu was banned from the tier,but it is still an amazing late game cleaner.Dugtrio is the fastest Pokemon in the entire tier so it is hard to reliably revenge kill Dug because it will hit you with a powerful Earthquake,or a Rock Slide if you are a flying type.Substitute is also a fantastic move on Dugtrio because of its amazing speed letting it scout whatever the opponent will try to pull on you.Dugtrios main role is the teams revenge killer and late game cleaner
Flareon
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Fire Blast
Growth
Substitue
Hidden Power Grass
Flareon is the teams setup wallbreaker and it serves as a great special tank.Most people tend to run Baton Pass instead of Substitute however this team really doesnt need special attack passed as it is mostly physical.Flareon is a great Pokemon in GSC NU just because of its stats alone(Highest BST Total in the tier).Flareon really suprises Graveler that switch in because of HP Grass and its Fire Blast absolutely nukes anything else after a single Growth.If you really want you can put HP Water instead of Grass but I dont reccomend that because of the bulk loss
Bayleef
Item:Leftovers
Moves
Leech Seed
Giga Drain
Synthesis
Light Screen
Bayleef is the absolute hardest counter to Chinchou who deals well with a good few members of this team.It is also a great check to Pokemon like Sneasel,Xatu,Graveler,Sudowoodo,Non Ice Beam Octillery,Kingler and Dugtrio.Bayleefs accses to reliable recovery makes it able to stick around for most of the game And Leech Seed and Giga Drain just improve the health being restored.Bayleef is a truely underatted Pokemon in the metagame who I belive should see much more usage than it gets
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GSC NU ROLE COMPENDIUM
The way the Pokemon are ordered on their respective role is by their effectivness in that role!
1:Entry Hazards and Spinners
Spikers:
Spinners:
2:Offensive Roles
Physical Attackers:
Special Attackers:
Mixed Attackers:
Setup Sweepers
Swords Dance: 
Growth: 
Belly Drum: 
Curse: 
Sharpen:
Meditate: 
Agility:
Other Offensive Roles
Pursuit: 
Explosion/Self-Destruct: 
Weather Setters/Abusers
Rain Dance:
Rain Abusers: 
Sunny Day:
Sun Abusers:
Sandstorm: 
Sand Abusers:
3:Utility Roles
Baton Pass users and Recipents
Baton Pass: 
Baton Pass Recipents:
Screen and Charm users
Reflect: 
Light Screen: 
Charm: 
Paralysis Spreaders
Thunder Wave:
Stun Spore: 
Body Slam: 
Glare:
Trappers and Partial Trappers
Mean Look:
Spider Web:
Whirlpool:
Wrap:
Sleepers
Hypnosis:
Sleep Powder:
Lovely Kiss:
Sing:
Spore:
Phazers
Roar:
Whirlwind: 
Miscellaneous
Encore:
Heal Bell:
Destiny Bond: 
Haze:
Perish Song:
4:Defensive Roles:
Physically Defensive:
Specially Defensive:
Mixed Walls:
Reliable Recovery Users
Recover:
Moonlight:
Synthesis:
Counters/Checks to top Metagame threats
Xatu Checks/Counters:
Dewgong Checks/Counters:
Weezing Checks/Counters:
Octillery Checks/Counters:
Magmar Checks/Counters:
Primape Checks/Counters:
The way the Pokemon are ordered on their respective role is by their effectivness in that role!
1:Entry Hazards and Spinners
Spikers:
Spinners:
2:Offensive Roles
Physical Attackers:
Special Attackers:
Mixed Attackers:
Setup Sweepers
Swords Dance:
Growth:
Belly Drum:
Curse:
Sharpen:
Meditate:
Agility:
Other Offensive Roles
Pursuit:
Explosion/Self-Destruct:
Weather Setters/Abusers
Rain Dance:
Rain Abusers:
Sunny Day:
Sun Abusers:
Sandstorm:
Sand Abusers:
3:Utility Roles
Baton Pass users and Recipents
Baton Pass:
Baton Pass Recipents:
Screen and Charm users
Reflect:
Light Screen:
Charm:
Paralysis Spreaders
Thunder Wave:
Stun Spore:
Body Slam:
Glare:
Trappers and Partial Trappers
Mean Look:
Spider Web:
Whirlpool:
Wrap:
Sleepers
Hypnosis:
Sleep Powder:
Lovely Kiss:
Sing:
Spore:
Phazers
Roar:
Whirlwind:
Miscellaneous
Encore:
Heal Bell:
Destiny Bond:
Haze:
Perish Song:
4:Defensive Roles:
Physically Defensive:
Specially Defensive:
Mixed Walls:
Reliable Recovery Users
Recover:
Moonlight:
Synthesis:
Counters/Checks to top Metagame threats
Xatu Checks/Counters:
Dewgong Checks/Counters:
Weezing Checks/Counters:
Octillery Checks/Counters:
Magmar Checks/Counters:
Primape Checks/Counters:
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I would add Hitmonchan to specially defensive, Cubone to swords dance, and Slowpoke to belly drummers.
This is dope. Perhaps you disagree but wouldn't all fire type -Ninetails and Houndour be at least slightly on the Mixed Attackers as well as special?
They lean towards special, so they clearly aren't pure physicals but they have use double edge/ cross chop so Mixed could also be helpful.
You could add Mean look/Web/Whirlpool as a category for trapping.
They lean towards special, so they clearly aren't pure physicals but they
You could add Mean look/Web/Whirlpool as a category for trapping.
I would also add sections for both screens, charm, and paralysis. Other than that this is pretty thorough and a great resource for anyone trying to explore the tier.
For the third time in this thread, I will share another team Ive had great succes with in the this amazing tier. https://pokepast.es/59f9526a353605c9 is the PokePaste if you want to use it
The archetype of this team is stall and thanks to the Fire-Water-Grass core it forces switch alot letting Spikes laid by Pineco take effect. Ninetales is the bulky fire of the team, thanks to its excellent special walling abilities it sits on staples such as Flareon and Magmar and slowly wears them down with Toxic while Resting any damage dealt to it. Exeggcute is on the team to handle two Pokemon, Dugtrio and Primape who are problematic to this team. Exeggcute can also just be annoying in general thanks Leech Seed and Syntesis keeping it healthy. Chinchou is there to beat opposing Water and Fire types and is a able to a check to Xatu and . Pineco is the Spiker and Spinner of the team and is a soft check to Primape and Dugtrio like Exeggcute and Pineco has offensive pressure thanks to Explosion. Sudowoodo is the normal resistance and lead of the team thanks to its ability to beat the omnipresent Rapidash leads and can slowly boost its self up with Curse making it a valuable member of the team. Finally Xatu is the sole offensive mon of the tier and is the counter to Weezing who is quite strong vs the other teamembers
The archetype of this team is stall and thanks to the Fire-Water-Grass core it forces switch alot letting Spikes laid by Pineco take effect. Ninetales is the bulky fire of the team, thanks to its excellent special walling abilities it sits on staples such as Flareon and Magmar and slowly wears them down with Toxic while Resting any damage dealt to it. Exeggcute is on the team to handle two Pokemon, Dugtrio and Primape who are problematic to this team. Exeggcute can also just be annoying in general thanks Leech Seed and Syntesis keeping it healthy. Chinchou is there to beat opposing Water and Fire types and is a able to a check to Xatu and . Pineco is the Spiker and Spinner of the team and is a soft check to Primape and Dugtrio like Exeggcute and Pineco has offensive pressure thanks to Explosion. Sudowoodo is the normal resistance and lead of the team thanks to its ability to beat the omnipresent Rapidash leads and can slowly boost its self up with Curse making it a valuable member of the team. Finally Xatu is the sole offensive mon of the tier and is the counter to Weezing who is quite strong vs the other teamembers
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Looks like quite a solid lineup, thanks for sharing. I like the Exeggcute set as I really hadn't considered running Synthesis over Explosion before. It should make for a good Primeape check. There were Rest + Explosion sets in the previous meta for stalling Raichu though.For the third time in this thread, I will share another team Ive had great succes with in the this amazing tier. https://pokepast.es/606feadc21b8a783 is the PokePaste if you want to use it
The archetype of this team is stall and thanks to the Fire-Water-Grass core it forces switch alot letting Spikes laid by Pineco take affect. Ninetales is the bulky fire of the team, thanks to its excellent special walling abilities it sits on staples such as Flareon and Magmar and slowly wears them down with Toxic while Resting any damage dealt to it. Exeggcute is on the team to handle two Pokemon, Dugtrio and Primape who are problematic to this team. Exeggcute can also just be annoying in general thanks Leech Seed and Syntesis keeping it healthy. Chinchou is there to beat opposing Water and Fire types and is a able to a check to Xatu and Fearow. Pineco is the Spiker and Spinner of the team and is a soft check to Primape and Dugtrio like Exeggcute and Pineco has offensive pressure thanks to Explosion. Sudowoodo is the normal resistance and lead of the team thanks to its ability to beat the omnipresent Rapidash leads and can slowly boost its self up with Curse making it a valuable member of the team. Finally Xatu is the sole offensive mon of the tier and is the counter to Weezing who is quite strong vs the other teamembers
A couple of things I noticed: three of your Pokemon have lowered DVs for no discernible reason (you probably had Hidden Power on them and took it off?) and Chinchou definitely doesn't check Fearow effectively: Fearow Double-Edge vs. Chinchou: 207-244 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I would also consider changing Night Shade on Xatu for something more useful. I don't think your team will struggle to beat Shuckle in the long run unless you lose the Spikes game.