Lower Tiers GSC NU Discussion

BeeOrSomething

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:gs/Rapidash:
I agree with pretty much everything you've said here except the part about Rapidash being dogshit. It's quite good in the right hands if I do say so myself. If being the fastest fire type in the entire game wasn't good enough for you it also boast access to a crucial sleep inducing move. This mind you, while being 100% capable of running a mixed set with things such as Double Kick to allow Hidden Power to be freed up for other things. I've even used this hellish unicorn before in a OU tour to great effect!

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-1588660874-ey26hk05l2x7miy3glabivoriwbxqn4pw

Please don't underestimate the horsepower, it's the favored by the President of the Pokémon Fan Club for a reason you know ;)
The primary reason I think rapidash is so bad is that it can’t do anything when octillery is around, who is quite literally one of the most common and strong and frankly semi-close to mandatory pokemon in the tier (only held back by the fact that dewgong is also insanely good). Double edge does not do enough, hidden power electric/grass does not do enough, hypnosis is blocked by rest talk and octillery has a 2/3 chance at any time to roll surf or rest, the former dealing probably at least 90% and the latter resetting the sleep counter. Rapidash can’t even really harm it with spikes. And of course, rapidash still mostly thuds into ninetales and dewgong (the rest talk surf beam set btw I think that is by far dewgong’s best set and it’s not close by a million years) and is still weak to dugtrio and the rocks. The speed and hypnosis are honestly the only reasons to use it. I will admit, the speed is excellent, outspeeding even fearow and ninetales, but what’s the point when it’s walled by so much? As for hypnosis, if you’re running hypnosis it means you’re not running rest talk and so rapidash will die a LOT faster. It’s also only 60% accurate and, again, thuds into octillery, dewgong, and some ninetales. Overall, I think if you want a fast hypnosis user that can deal ok burst damage but is walled by a decent bit, just use Persian, as it actually has stab on normal moves and some other good moves like thief and screech to slam the opponent with. If you want a fast fire type, then just use magmar which can actually deal serious damage or ninetales which is much more defensively capable.
 
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The primary reason I think rapidash is so bad is that it can’t do anything when octillery is around, who is quite literally one of the most common and strong and frankly semi-close to mandatory pokemon in the tier (only held back by the fact that dewgong is also insanely good). Double edge does not do enough, hidden power electric/grass does not do enough, hypnosis is blocked by rest talk and octillery has a 2/3 chance at any time to roll surf or rest, the former dealing probably at least 90% and the latter resetting the sleep counter. Rapidash can’t even really harm it with spikes. And of course, rapidash still mostly thuds into ninetales and dewgong (the rest talk surf beam set btw I think that is by far dewgong’s best set and it’s not close by a million years) and is still weak to dugtrio and the rocks. The speed and hypnosis are honestly the only reasons to use it. I will admit, the speed is excellent, outspeeding even fearow and ninetales, but what’s the point when it’s walled by so much? As for hypnosis, if you’re running hypnosis it means you’re not running rest talk and so rapidash will die a LOT faster. It’s also only 60% accurate and, again, thuds into octillery, dewgong, and some ninetales. Overall, I think if you want a fast hypnosis user that can deal ok burst damage but is walled by a decent bit, just use Persian, as it actually has stab on normal moves and some other good moves like thief and screech to slam the opponent with. If you want a fast fire type, then just use magmar which can actually deal serious damage or ninetales which is much more defensively capable.
:gs/Rapidash:
These are some fair criticism imo, however, the Octillery & rocks problem is real for all of the fire types in NU as well. With that said, I think Rapidash hasn't been fully explored in the teir, especially when it comes to sunny day sets. Something like: Hypnosis, Sunny Day, Fire Blast and whatever coverage move you could want or need as the 4th move.

It's mixed stats makes that slot a complete wild card cause it could just about be anything, while with Ninetails you pretty much know that you're never gonna see anything coming from the physical side. The speed tier as you mentioned is indeed a big reason to use it. Outspeeding Fearow, Xatu, Primeape and Dewgong while being able of 2 shotting all of them with Fire Blast in sun is a big deal.

:gs/Fearow:
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Fearow in Sun: 227-267 (68.1 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gs/Xatu:
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Xatu in Sun: 211-249 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gs/primeape:
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Primeape in Sun: 211-249 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

:gs/dewgong:
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Dewgong in Sun: 173-204 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 91.5% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

It worth noting that it matchs up better against Ninetales than Ninetales matchs up against it. Rapidash has a faster hypnosis & can go the physical route with Double-Edge or any hidden power of your choice. This is pretty much true against all of the other fire types in the tier as well. It can even run Double Kick to bully Houndour without messing with its hidden power selection at all if it really wants to on certain sets.
:gs/Houndour:
Rapidash Double Kick (2 hits) vs. Houndour: 166-196 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Another thing that players overlook massively is Rapidash's ability to shut down physical sweepers through Charm. It's underrepresented in the current meta but it's there and it comes off of a very high speed stat. -2 Double-Edge from Fearow or Wigglytuff is just not particularly scary, especially when you've got firely horsepower on your end. If I were to sum up what makes Rapidash sooo good imo outside of its blazing speed and I would say it's the sheer unpredictability that it brings to the battles its in that makes it worthwhile.

The mysterious nature of the Unicorn is half of the fun ;)
 
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BeeOrSomething

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:gs/Rapidash:
These are some fair criticism imo, however, the Octillery & rocks problem is real for all of the fire types in NU as well. With that said, I think Rapidash hasn't been fully explored in the teir, especially when it comes to sunny day sets. Something like: Hypnosis, Sunny Day, Fire Blast and whatever coverage move you could want or need as the 4th move.

It's mixed stats makes that slot a complete wild card cause it could just about be anything, while with Ninetails you pretty much know that you're never gonna see anything coming from the physical side. The speed tier as you mentioned is indeed a big reason to use it. Outspeeding Fearow, Xatu, Primeape and Dewgong while being able of 2 shotting all of them with Fire Blast in sun is a big deal.

:gs/Fearow:
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Fearow in Sun: 227-267 (68.1 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gs/Xatu:
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Xatu in Sun: 211-249 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gs/primeape:
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Primeape in Sun: 211-249 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

:gs/dewgong:
Rapidash Fire Blast vs. Dewgong in Sun: 173-204 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 91.5% chance to 2HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

It worth noting that it matchs up better against Ninetales than Ninetales matchs up against it. Rapidash has a faster hypnosis & can go the physical route with Double-Edge or any hidden power of your choice. This is pretty much true against all of the other fire types in the tier as well. It can even run Double Kick to bully Houndour without messing with its hidden power selection at all if it really wants to on certain sets.
:gs/Houndour:
Rapidash Double Kick (2 hits) vs. Houndour: 166-196 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Another thing that players overlook massively is Rapidash's ability to shut down physical sweepers through Charm. It's underrepresented in the current meta but it's there and it comes off of a very high speed stat. -2 Double-Edge from Fearow or Wigglytuff is just not particularly scary, especially when you've got firely horsepower on your end. If I were to sum up what makes Rapidash sooo good imo outside of its blazing speed and I would say it's the sheer unpredictability that it brings to the battles its in that makes it worthwhile.

The mysterious nature of the Unicorn is half of the fun ;)
Double kick does the same damage vs houndour as double edge and consumes a valuable moveslots.

Anywho, octillery and rocks are problems for fires sure but magmar has thunder punch and cross chop, flareon has growth pass + hp grass or a strong double edge and Hp ground, houndour has sunny beam, and ninetales is supposed to be a defensive Pokemon first and foremost + has toxic and roar + spikes. I don’t think rapidash is really that unpredictable and it’s not going to do anything with it most of the time anyways. Fire blast + hypnosis + 2 sunny day/dedge/Hp grass or fire blast/double edge/rest/sleep talk is going to be the majority of sets, and when both are hard shut down by octillery, ninetales, and to an extent the rocks, what’s the point in using it when you could be using a different fire that Is more consistently destructive?

I’m not saying you can’t like rapidash and think it’s good of course. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. Just personally I don’t think it’s worth using.
 
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FNH

F is for Finchi, N is for Nator, H is for Hater
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Rapidash isn't a bad mon. Rapidash is relegated to this awkward position of being worse all out attacker then Magmar due to its limited movepool. And a worse sleep talker then Ninetales because of its worse bulk. Rapidash's typing doesn't work with its 100 base attack. Its stopped easily by waters, while not adding much defensive utility to the team. The roles that it is viable in are ones the make use of Hypnosis. A little while back Rapidash with Hypnosis was a common lead, but recently Persain seems to be more favored in that role. Even Stantler tends to be chosen as Hypnosis user over Rapidash more (most likely on account of how versatile and good Stantler is). It's not that Rapidash is explicitly and obviously bad like other mons such as Fearow, but it just doesn't fit well into any roles.
 
Double kick does the same damage vs houndour as double edge and consumes a valuable moveslots.

Anywho, octillery and rocks are problems for fires sure but magmar has thunder punch and cross chop, flareon has growth pass + hp grass or a strong double edge and Hp ground, houndour has sunny beam, and ninetales is supposed to be a defensive Pokemon first and foremost + has toxic and roar + spikes. I don’t think rapidash is really that unpredictable and it’s not going to do anything with it most of the time anyways. Fire blast + hypnosis + 2 sunny day/dedge/Hp grass or fire blast/double edge/rest/sleep talk is going to be the majority of sets, and when both are hard shut down by octillery, ninetales, and to an extent the rocks, what’s the point in using it when you could be using a different fire that Is more consistently destructive?

I’m not saying you can’t like rapidash and think it’s good of course. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions. Just personally I don’t think it’s worth using.
Actually Double Kick does slighty more than Double-Edge; has 2 separate chances of getting a crit, has no recoil cost, has more pp and unlike Double-Edge actually lands super effective hits on things like the rocks & normal types.

Rapidash Double-Edge vs. Houndour: 164-193 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rapidash Double Kick (2 hits) vs. Houndour: 166-196 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gs/Octillery:
You seem to be really focused on Octillery, so lets dive into that shall we? ^u^

:gs/magmar:
Magmar needs the sun up to even make thunderpunch a valid way of dealing with Octillery head on cause it's a 3 Hit KO while Surf is 2 Hit Ko (becomes a 3 Hit Ko in sun).

Magmar Thunder Punch vs. Octillery: 131-154 (38.8 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Octillery Surf vs. Magmar: 236-278 (70.8 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gs/Flareon:
Flareon basically never runs sun due to favoring growth, which means it doesn't get the reduction in power of surf in sun, so it gets 2 hit koed by Octillery's surf before making use of the power up of growth that takes a turn to even set up. Flareon's Double-Edge is strong (albeit somewhat rare) but it's still a 3 hit ko and surf simply wins out cause no sun.

Octillery Surf vs. Flareon: 200-236 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Flareon Double-Edge vs. Octillery: 124-146 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gs/Houndour:
Houndour's Solar beam is indeed very scary but it 100% requires sun to use but even more importantly Houndour NEEDs sun up to even be thinking about taking on Octillery because surf is a 1 shot outside of sun and a 2 shot in sun. Even you if use sun, Octillery uses surf, you solar beam and the 2nd surf takes you out. Unlike Rapidash or Ninetales, Houndour doesn't have hypnosis as a stop gap to buy it time to summon the sun.

Octillery Surf vs. Houndour: 323-380 (110.2 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Octillery Surf vs. Houndour in Sun: 159-188 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Houndour Solar Beam vs. Octillery: 180-212 (53.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gs/Ninetales:
As for Ninetales lets be honest, its not breaking through Octillery with its rest talk set anytime soon. If it were to go on the offensive its 1 point more in special attack relative to Rapidash isn't breaking the game but even more than that Rapidash's superior speed & ability to go physical if it wants to makes it a better choice in this role.

:gs/Rapidash:
Now in the head to head battle between Octillery vs Rapidash. It has access to hypnosis as I mentioned before and can use this to set up sun and go for hidden power grass while hoping that Octillery goes for either ice beam or hp electric but even surf is at least 50% weaker in these conditions. With spikes factored this can become a 3 hit ko & Miracle seed can secure this even further.

Rapidash Hidden Power Grass vs. Octillery: 105-124 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rapidash Hidden Power Grass vs. Octillery: 105-124 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- 73.3% chance to 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

Miracle Seed Rapidash Hidden Power Grass vs. Octillery: 115-136 (34.1 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery

:gs/Azumarill:
With that said, I don't think your fire type should be your first answer to Octillery and assuming they bring Azumarill instead all of the pokemon I just listed aren't getting through its bulk period lol. Rapidash is meant to enable more fast paced offensive teams through hypnosis, sun and its mixed bag of tools. Magmar, Flareon and Houdour can't sleep anything while Ninetales tends to drop sleep to go defensive and would be slower & more predictable than Rapidash anyways if it did go down that road.

On a side note, I'd like to address something FNH said in their post about sleep leads. The thing about Persian & Stantler is that they literally don't resist anything in the game outside of the rare shadow ball so that's a true lack of defensive utility. Now do they offer plenty of useful options through their movepools? Of course, and I've used them to great effect (sometimes in teirs even higher than NU lol). Rapidash on the other hand, comes in on Pineco's hp bug all day, the grass types & fire types in general and resists steel (assuming anyone wanted to run steel wing or something). In conclusion, I just want to say that I respect both of your positions on this and am enjoying this conversation :)
 

MrSoup

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Leading up to the NU Open in the inaugural GSC Grand Slam, I thought I'd drop a lot of the teams that I've built for the past few team tournaments I've played in/built for. Hopefully this will spark tier discussion, as well as give people an easy entry to the tier for this exciting new tournament! Some of them I think could also be used to update the much outdated sample teams. The most tournament-tested and solid teams will be first; moving down the list will venture into more experimental albeit still great stuff. Shoutout chub and FNH for playing a big role in building a lot of these teams with me.

(Also warning that these teams lean heavily into archetypes I prefer like Spikes-less offense, Weezing, and Graveler.)

Graveler Balance

:hitmonlee::weezing::fearow::stantler::graveler::dewgong:
:xatu::weezing::fearow::wigglytuff::graveler::octillery:
:hitmonlee::weezing::fearow::stantler::graveler::azumarill:

I suppose this is the playstyle that I've become most known for. Spike-less Graveler teams have a legitimate space in the metagame and have put up a lot of results in recent team tours. This is three variations of a similar build. The main idea is that Grav+Weez is a great combo. Having spin allows Weezing multiple entries while double-checking a lot of the physical attackers in the meta. Double Boom is also incredibly powerful for making progress without spikes. The structure also allows you to lead a Pokemon that loses to lead Pine, as Graveler can always switch into it regardless of toxics. Fearow + Water is standard for making dents in opposing teams. The team then needs an answer to Chinchou, which comes in the form of Lee/Tuff. The last is just a general pick that gives you a better defensive and offensive profile i.e. Xatu/Stantler. The main idea is to be defensively impenetrable while utilizing offensive pressure that often culminates in using booms to get past your enemy's defenses rather than spikes. The first team is certainly the best IMO, being able to utilize its defensive options most optimally. The second might be the more user-friendly, but is a little scary into Thunders without Lee. It also wants Gong over Octillery to make your Xatu MU better, but that would unfortunately make you get completely rolled by opposing Octillery. The third is probably the only valid structure where I've been able to fit Azu, as double Light Screen lets you have a much easier time against Xatu, which the first team has to tread lightly against, while not weakening your scary Ape MU like Gong does. They all have pros and cons which is why I listed all three. There's realistically plenty of room to mess with the structure as long as you keep the core of Grav/Weez/Fearow/Water/Chinchou-check.

Triple Boom Offense

:Pineco::Sudowoodo::xatu::dugtrio::weezing::octillery:
:Pineco::Sudowoodo::Xatu::Dugtrio::weezing::chinchou:
:Pineco::Sudowoodo::hitmonlee::kingler::weezing::chinchou:
:Pineco::Graveler::xatu::fearow::weezing::octillery:

I really think one of these should be a sample team. All four teams have the same idea in that they want to scout the opponent for what the biggest defensive obstacle is for the three-non boom Pokemon. The first two are the most standard, as they utilize the tried-and-true XaDug Spikes archetype. The latter two require a little more knowledge of your team and how to use it, especially the Kingler build. Team one needs to boom on the opposing water to win, while team two needs to eliminate Dugtrio, and the third must Explode on Xatu. That's the basic premise. Use your super powerful double-downs to open up the game for what u have in the back. My personal favorites that I've had the most success with are the latter two, but I understand they aren't as palatable.

Tuff Baton Pass

:dragonair::wigglytuff::dewgong::flareon::xatu::weezing:

This really isn't ground-breaking but it's a tried-and-true structure and works well. My only big take is that Thunder Wigglytuff gives you a pass into opposing Chinchou (which I admittedly may think about too much in the builder). Weezing is the only other Pokemon of interest here, which I like to use as a way to boom past things Gong and Xatu struggle with like Stantler or Primeape.

SleepTalk Ape

:ninetales::xatu::octillery::primeape::porygon::weezing:

Here I tried to force myself out of the same structures when I got to the fifth Pokemon and needed a Chinchou answer. I would usually slot Lee but I went with Ape and gave it STalk for some durability. Not the best set but it does offer a unique niche of giving the team needed offense. Porygon paralysis and Weezing trades give the Ape a lot of room for flexibility here. IMO a strong but not easy build to use.

Standard Offense

:pineco::primeape::octillery::xatu::magnemite::dewgong:

!!!NO WEEZING ALERT!!! This is my attempt at forgoing defensive synergy for offensive synergy. Even then, I opted for some fail-safes instead of going all out. Mag, Oct, and Ape form a good core of tearing down each other's defensive checks. Gong could likely be swapped for a Dug depending on preference, although encore protect is just super strong with spikes support, especially as an answer to opposing Octillery, which this set can almost always outlast. Thunder Ape is the best secondary attacking move for it and should almost always be slotted.

Swagger Psych Up Persian

:ninetales::pineco::persian::xatu::octillery::weezing:
:ninetales::pineco::persian::xatu::dewgong::gloom:

Back Persian has a niche, and it's not ENTIRELY cheese. I've used this and won in two team tours at this point with both versions, but a lot of its success comes from surprise factor. SubSwagger, even without Psych Up, can force a lot of spikes damage on the opponent. Ninetales is mandatory as a way to consistently beat Magnemite, and Xatu is just good. The last two slots need to improve your MU against Sudo/Graveler and CurseTalk mono Normals. Oct + Boom is the simplest answer, but Encore Gong for Stant and Gloom with HP Grass also does the trick depending on preference. This is also a weird situation where Gong doesn't need Ice Beam and would prefer Surf as its mono attack. I prefer the Gloom build for its better match up into Chinchou and Dugtrio, but the former is more offensive. I also thought it would be cool to include a modern build that can effectively utilize Gloom.

Bayleef Offense

:ninetales::bayleef::kingler::primeape::chinchou::weezing:
:ninetales::bayleef::kingler::primeape::xatu::sudowoodo:

I promise I'm not trolling. It's sort of well known that Bayleef in NU functions as a stall mon along Shuckle. However, its defensive profile can offensively enable very particular teams. Specifically, it is the only Pokemon that simultaneously counters water/electric coverage from Octillery and Chinchou while also countering 90% of Dug sets. The premise, hence, is to basically overload five strong offensive Pokemon weak to these extremely common threats and use it as a one-stop shop that can also give you screens.



A lot of these teams stray from the norm in that they're Spikes-less, Xatu-less, very defensive, and focus heavily on the tier's boom Pokemon. But this is what I've found success with. I figured that would be a better dump than my more standard builds. My other meta-take is that Pory and Pass are much much muchhhh better than they're currently being utilized, and will likely explode in usage.
 
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BeeOrSomething

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Some potentially spicy GSC NU Takes (Reminder: these are all "takes" - my opinions)

:gs/ninetales: :gs/rapidash:
Ninetales and Rapidash - OVERRATED
A lot of the time, at the very least in early-mid game, both these mons can fail to deal significant damage. There will always be at the very least Octillery and/or Dewgong on pretty much every team, both of which can sit on Dash and Tales all day and use their presence to force progress. It doesn’t help that both are walled by other Dash and Tales (Dash’s double edge only does like 30 to Tales which is not nearly enough to really do that much IMO) and severely dislike the rocks and Dugtrio. Both are generally great pokemon outside of the Oct/Gong matchup, but those two are just too unavoidable a presence to just ignore. For what it’s worth, I think Tales is better because toxic is a better move than double edge (Dash’s double edge does not do enough to 3hko Oct or Tales), and if Dash uses toxic it’s just a worse Ninetales, but I respect the opinions of those that think otherwise.

:gs/magnemite:
Magnemite - OVERRATED
This mon is actually so bad. Ok it’s not really bad but I don’t think it’s very good anymore, maybe like B tier (which is below stuff like Dragonair). It’s just so unbelievably slow, doesn’t have the bulk it needs outside of resistances (which really only matter in a couple specific matchups like Xatu and Fearow), has to predict so much between thunder and hp ice to deal damage considering ground types and fire types and other pokemon with a super effective move, and thunder misses sooooooo much it’s actually ridiculous. It’s also pretty hard to fit Magnemite, compressing Fearow/Persian answer and Xatu answer is about the only thing it really does. It still hurts like an absolute motherfucker and answering Xatu, Fearow, and Persian is very valuable, but it has so much stopping it from being legit good IMO.

:gs/graveler:
Graveler - UNDERRATED
This mon is really really good. A- worthy IMO. It just enables more balanced/defensive play styles so well and is still a strong offensive force. It blocks Pineco from doing anything, even spiking, bar toxic (if it even has it, and toxic still takes a long time to add up significantly due to gsc toxic mechanics reverting it to regular poison upon switch out). Even boom will only do like 45 or so because Graveler resists it, and then Pineco is gone. Graveler is also an excellent Weezing answer due to resisting all its moves besides the odd hp water Weezing, though sludge bomb poison is annoying. Being able to use mons that let in Pineco freely like Gloom and Body Slam Hitmonlee without regret is wonderful for building. It’s not all defensive either, 95 attack STAB earthquake and Hp rock complimented by explosion can be seriously scary at times. However, fitting Graveler on more offensive spikes teams can be difficult at times because Dugtrio works so well as the ground on those, and it’s always going to be super slow and have poor special defense.

:gs/wigglytuff:
Wigglytuff - OVERRATED
For the record, I don’t think it’s that overrated, I just don’t really think it’s worthy of top 10 on the VR. Asides from the obvious issues of losing to rocks and fighters, Wiggly has a really annoying dilemma: the choice between double edge and body slam. Double edge packs serious power, even 3hko’ing Pineco easily even without a curse boost, but the recoil makes it basically impossible for Wiggly to check Octillery and at times can screw you over vs Xatu and even Dewgong (though rarer). On the flip side, body slam is honestly hilariously weak unboosted or even at +1, but it doesn’t pack recoil and can paralyze, mostly important for Weezing. It’s a really irritating flaw, especially since return (the mid ground between the two) is still very noticeably lacking and personally leaves me just wishing I had double edge. This is Wiggly’s biggest problem imo, rocks and fighters are manageable enough weaknesses but being completely unable to answer Octillery and at times Xatu if you opt for the actually strong STAB move is such a pain for team building.

:gs/dunsparce:
Dunsparce - UNDERRATED
Dunsparce is legit good. I shit you not. With rest and sleep talk, it’s honestly just like a mostly better version of return Wigglytuff. Meanwhile, the glare set is a valuable paralysis spreader that’s even self-sufficient for teams that need a win condition with bulk but aren’t necessarily banking on it for defensive purposes. Comparing the stats, they have the same attack stat, Sparce has higher physical defense, and Wiggly has higher special defense (check the damage calc). The difference isn’t that large, but the improved physical defense can make a difference in the matchups vs other normal types and Dugtrio, and while the special defense is marginally lower, Dunsparce can still tank Xatu and Dewgong well and is even favored to dodge a 3hko from Octillery surf, especially since Sparce will basically always have either sleep talk (which can call rest) or glare (which gives odds for Oct to be fully paralyzed and makes it slower). Obviously, the main issue with Dunsparce is that it’s close enough to the exact same as Wigglytuff to where most people won’t find a reason to use it over Wiggly, and it doesn’t have access to body slam or double edge. However, I personally think it’s worth giving it a shot and would like to see people try it out.

:gs/gloom:
Gloom - UNDERRATED
I know, I know, I bashed this mon to no tomorrow even just a couple months ago. HOWEVER. I was not enlightened yet. I did not see the truth of Graveler balance (or even like know it existed really). Gloom + Graveler is actually a really good combination. Graveler alleviates any Pineco issues Gloom may have, allowing it to come into battle as much as it wants and spread paralysis. Its array of resistances is really nice. Fighting, water, and electric all in one, and combined with moonlight it’s a great answer to hp electric Octillery, Chinchou, and Primeape/Hitmonlee. With hp grass (which I think you should run on the stun spore set generally because curse has a ton of roadblocks), Gloom is even a solid answer to Dugtrio and the rocks (though obviously I don’t think it should be your primary answer to Dugtrio). Razor leaf is also fine if you’re worried about the harsh DV drops of hp grass, though I think you usually want the extra power. Gloom isn’t perfect and still has many glaring flaws that I’ve harped on it for previously (resulting in me ranking it so low on my previous VR), but I’ve come around to it and realized the true potential of Graveler + Gloom balance. Solid A- mon or so, genuinely.

:gs/azumarill:
Azumarill - OVERRATED
I’m sure everyone knows this by now but Azumarill blows. Legit PU tier mon. It has no reason to be sitting pretty in the B1 rank of the most recent VR, and I wholeheartedly believe that. It’s somewhat bulky and has the water type but that’s all it has going for it. It does no damage whatsoever. Have fun giving free entry to stuff like Fearow and Stantler and wishing you had a better water type (literally any that doesn’t suck complete ass) !!!

A Couple Cool Potential Niches

:gs/Corsola:
This thing may have a strong niche, it’s just a matter of time of when someone will prove it. Recover + normal resist is already a recipe for success. This thing has a pretty good movepool asides from recover too. Rock slide, surf, curse, screech, or even earthquake (though I wouldn’t use eq personally because it’s super weak). While its stats are a bit low, they aren’t that low due to GSC’s maxed bulk, and plenty of mons have found success with worse, like Magnemite. Corsola’s main issue is undoubtedly Weezing. The most you can do to it in one turn is like 30%, and it outspeeds and slams Corsola with thunder. Building Corsola + spikes or Corsola + ground while maintaining a strong defensive core isn’t exactly the easiest thing either. This also neglects to mention other issues, like Chinchou and just status in general. There’s a lot holding Corsola back, I won’t deny it. However, I think it holds some promise.

:gs/mantine: :gs/Shuckle: :gs/bayleef: :gs/hitmontop:
Stall might have an actual future in the tier. A friend of mine that happens to be good at gsc NU (won’t name names) has been experimenting with stall and it’s actually worked out pretty well. Mantine is surf haze rest talk, Shuckle does normal Shuckle things, Bayleef does normal bayleef things (see: MrSoup’s team dump post), and Hitmontop is hjk spin rest talk, essentially spin Hitmonlee but much physically bulkier, and the last two mons are a win con and some other defensive piece. It’s not the most visually appealing team and it doesn’t look like it would be good given the nature of gsc NU and the history of stall in the tier, but it generally performs quite well outside of a few miscellaneous poor matchups. Honorable stall mentions: Sunflora, SD Eq Lickitung, and curse rest talk Weezing.
 
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so ig ill share some of my views so far / after slam, leaving out pinecone bc that mon is very hard for me to rank. very vaguely ordered within ranks but prob mostly just treat this as not ordered within ranks lol

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rankings of dunsparce pupitar hitmonlee kingler dugtrio as well as some of the stuff in C / potential are very approximate as i have not used them myself and have seen or faced them a few times at most.

some assorted comments:

~ ive been preferring dewgong > octillery more, bulk obv, ice stab is so valuable both for fliers and for the freeze which u have significant chances of getting over the course of a game vs not-dewgong and also giving u outs vs pory which can kinda do whatever it wants vs elec oct. the rock weakness i find honestly not very relevant as sudowoodo & graveler can be handled much better by porygon anyway, sudo is pretty lacking damage overall outside of boom and oct isnt rly a long term graveler answer, while octillery isnt any better than gong vs pupitar due to being slower. oct also comes with a weezing weakness and also being worse v magnemite due to speed tier and lack of special bulk. primeape mu is the biggest disadv of gong to me. another thing is gong doesnt care all that much about being asleep (magnemite mu is the exception) while elec oct rly wants to be awake. also not resisting fire, well gong is better than oct vs flareon its rly sunny day users that it is worse against and i havent rly seen them enough to comment. (as for ice oct i rly feel rn u should just use dewgong there instead so thats why im focusing on elec oct here.)

~ porygon and wigglytuff are in the top ranks for me partly bc of their synergy, porygon checking sudowoodo and graveler is very valuable to teammates like fearow weezing and some persian variants, while wigglytuff checking chinchou (and also not really caring about magnemite) is very valuable for dewgong/octillery. weezing is just really good offensively and defensively, while persian's speed versatility and lack of switchins to its non-stalk sets are enough to easily be included in the group of top mons, and while fearow does have some poor matchups in dewgong and normal resists the matchups arent necessarily difficult to cover with pory checking sudo/grav and your own dewgong switching into opposing gong with no problem, while magnemite and pupitar are pressured quite a bit by dedge despite resisting it. also fearow's ability to threaten the fighting types is very nice.
i think pory should rly be using curse, as otherwise its bad vs normals (esp wigglytuff but also like stantler), and way worse vs the fightings, its fine vs 2/3 of the rocks with mono curse anyway and bolt beam is even worse than dedge vs magnemite so pupitar is rly the only thing ur losing out on. [i briefly considered barrier btw lol but i doubt thats worth esp given that pupitar can break through with flinching anyway.]
stantler is def a very dangerous mon but it has neither the defensive utility of pory and wiggly nor the speed and power of fearow, persian is kinda more threatening than it as well with its much faster hypnosis + learning screech, and dedge mostly making up for persian's lower attack stat, so overall stantler feels a bit of an awkward midground when compared to the other four normals for me. eq and light screen are very nice tools tho, and maybe even something like return light screen stalk could be considered as a team support but without being completely useless like azumarill.
raticate is strictly worse than persian really but i rank it since u can use them both. dunsparce is basically a wiggly limited to return for stab, maybe the better phys bulk could be preferred at times esp for explosions, but i like wiggly's spec bulk to be better at checking chinchou, also u could potentially use both. dunsparce could be higher potentially but since i havent used it or faced it lol.

~ primeape would be in the top tier if its moves were more accurate but lol. stalk is cool for switching into and threatening dewgong, and also sudowoodo tho the latter is not rly hard to switch into, but ofc leaves u even more dependent on rng than the mon already is since only one of cchop vs thunder is threatening to most targets; being able to stay healthy is obv rly nice tho. with 3atks sub being able to have an out vs boom users like graveler other than a chop crit is cool, no other comments on that set everyone knows what it does. either way ape can be very dangerous for sure but it can also just miss its 80% and 70% moves and its not bulky enough to get away with multiple misses. hitmon ive barely faced but its worse phys bulk eg usually being 2hkod by persian, as well as not having the higher crit chance vs curse normals, is v unappealing, and its competing with wigglytuff as a chinchou check.

~ the normal resists have some nice matchups but also have so many flaws. sudowoodo is lacking in damage vs neutral targets, if u run curse stalk u still get walled by pory anyway lol, the mon is like functional enough but its ceiling is trading most of the time. maybe theres room for experimentation with something like dynamic punch, ofc ud have to drop either curse or eq for that, or maybe thief idk. as of now tho sudo is easily the lowest of the normal resists for me. graveler is rly nice with spin, checking fearow non-hp water weezing and non-hypnosis persians, actual offensive presence with stab on eq, and also a much stronger boom which is occasionally important. rapid spin and body slam are incompatible + no room anyway so unless u drop spin u cant threaten pory outside of boom. (idk if eq rs bslam boom would ever be worth considering.) graveler has felt the best normal resist to me so far. i dont necessarily like grav coming in to spin right away btw, if u can hit pineco hard that may be better as you will generally have chances to spin vs other mons and ideally pineco will be too weakened to be able to get spikes back up again, ofc it varies tho. pupitar needs to see more usage or at least in games ive watched ive seen it like once but screech and outspeeding all the base 45s including oct is really nice. with elec oct being the most common rn u could run sub + screech and have even more ways to break thru it. (edit i was alerted to pup doesnt learn substitute i forgot oops.) magnemite is cool for not being walled by porygon, or anything else rly, but its also rly bad at being a normal resist with 25/70/55 bulk so it can get 3hkod by fearow 4hkod by persian/unboosted wiggly etc. magnemite also generally loses to dewgong. im not sure on the tbolt vs thunder choice but it has these problems either way. thunder also comes with pp issues when dueling a wigglytuff or stalk persian or whatever due to how quickly magnemite is pressured to rest. i had multiple games this slam where magnemite was in theory rly threatening to my team but was j taking too much damage from the things it 'checked' so it didnt rly do any better than 1 for 1 idt. hard to say for sure tho i havent like calced odds really its more a general feeling (i will come back and add some replays here later)

~ ninetales and xatu are like the only mons with positive weezing matchups (unless u count dewgong as favorable vs weezing), tales is a defensive check xatu and offensive one, but they come with so many other problems including being bait for oct and gong respectively, & generally poor matchups vs normals. tales additionally adds another weakness to all the rock types but at least it checks magnemite (or as close as u can get to checking mag), ofc pory can cover grav/sudo but then u still need a plan for pup. sunny vs toxic is an interesting choice on tales, get to kind of choose whether u are water weak or whether u are letting rocks and porygon in freely outside of the burn chance. xatu should probably be paired with dewgong to not give it repeated free ice beams, idk i dont rly get why everyone is so high on xatu lol and im almost always happy when opp has one seems like theyre playing down half a mon. psychic drops can make it actually scary but xatu doesnt get as many chances to go for that 10% as a mon like dewgong due to its mediocre bulk and common weaknesses. kingler seems like it has a lot going for it in a largely physically oriented metagame + sets up on dewgong but it is also pretty weak without stab, like its not rly anything great vs curse normals 1v1, and it isnt too difficult to revenge either, idk have to see and/or try it more. dugtrio doesnt interest me much at all, it takes way too much from sludge bomb + ruined by poison to ever switch into anything from weez besides thunder, it is easily 2hkod by every normal type, i think pupitar is much more appealing as an offensive ground idk. ofc pup is slower than chinch but i once again think theres better options for threatening chinchou (wiggly). pup is also significantly specially bulkier eg it can tolerate hp ice from mag much better. duggy does outspeed weez so no need to scout for hp water. idk dug has some things and maybe seeing more games with it will convince me otherwise but its v unimpressive to me the few times i have seen it, i considered putting it in C honestly.
flareon should always run double edge to me, mixed attacking is its best trait. ive only used stab dedge stalk on it. idk its a weird mon, unlike ninetales it cant really check weezing check but on the other hand it threatens damage to everything, hits harder than rapidash on both sides obvi incl the 3hko on oct, has the special bulk to check magnemite but its physical bulk is really bad so its matchups vs normals are generally rly poor. also slower than dewgong. growth pass is probably a better reason to use flareon (but id still run dedge) but i havent used that myself and i think i saw it exactly once.

~ im not rly a believer in grasses i guess, wiggly is a much better way to cover chinchou and u can pivot around oct eg bring normals into hp elec, primeape checking is the most valuable thing gloom/exeggcute do imo but they arent exactly great at checking 3atks ape anyway being 3hkod by dedge. checking rocks is nice but once again theyre all slower than pupitar besides bayleef and tangela, and ofc they dont check magnets either, so they are competing with porygon there. also grasses p much have to accept getting paralyzed to do any of their jobs, and once paralyzed their vulnerability to offense becomes quite a bit worse with never outspeeding curse users + fps eg the 56% odds to land stun spore thru para etc. (and eg if graveler has to trade w wiggly or pory then persian or fearow cleans afterward so its not like u are safe just bc u have a rock type). dewgong is also a big problem. i prob lean toward eggy being the best of them since at least it can boom but i rly dont like grasses much in general.
rapidash doesnt have much of a purpose to me, since it cant rly check weezing; if i want something offensive either use flareon or like just a normal type lol. seaking has actual special bulk and also semi-usable special attack vs stuff like weezing, so it might have something over kingler but its a weird midground idk. no other comments on my c ranks rly
 
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I have been playing this meta for a little while now and I feel like sharing some thoughts I have about the meta



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Im not the first person to talk about this thing but graveler is honestly the face of balance. It allows you to drop the mostly defensively useless pineco(ik its a dugtrio and normal check, but its not a particularly good one). Ignoring that graveler is just a good ass mon, it is one of the best checks to the likes of fearow and weezing, its pretty good into mononormals, and its just really tough to switch into. It has the strongest stab earthquake in the meta and a quite strong hidden power rock, also explosion. its far from unbreakable and its shortcomings bight it in the ass alot, most notably its quad water weakness and hatred of toxic, but the nature of graveler allows for other teammates to cover said problems well. Its definately being adapted to but what it does is just so unique and valubule and its what allows balance to be as good as it is right now.



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Its tough to discuss graveler without discussing gloom as well. it makes a lot of sensse, they pretty perfectly cover eachothers weaknesses. graveler covers a lot of the annoying shit (pineco, weezing, fearow) that gloom lets in and in return gloom covers a lot of the mons that are problematic for graveler(elec waters, primape, dugtrio) it really is an amazing pair. Gloom is also pretty unique as its the only grass type and one of two poison types, the only poison type with reliable recovery. It spreads para without being blocked by ground types and while its no wallbreaker, its stab sludge bombs and hp grasses hit what they need to pretty decently. Its definately more reliant on graveler than graveler is to it but the gravelgloom core is an incredibly solid one.



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ok so they are really close but porygon is the just so slight preference of me. Wiggly is obviously a good mon but its a little overrated and the teams it fits on it just kinda needs to do too much defensively, and ergo becomes really unreliable in doing so. It really wants to fit on graveler teams but its defensive utility isnt spesific enough to do so. Porygon has broken recover, need i say more? Porygon does a lot of the things that wiggly does, but is more diverse and less rng reliant. Wiggly sleep talk rolls can and will fuck you over while pory doesnt even need to run a curse set to be viable. there are a few things that wiggly can do that pory cant but those things are pretty easilly covered by your other team members. It's a very close call but a lot of the time im going porygon.



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Yeah so I don't think anyone thinks dewgong is not amazing but even then it manages to be underrated. its the second best xatu check and the best one that has utility outside the xatu matchup. Its also just generally really hard to kill for a lot of things. Its stab ice beam is simaltaneously quite strong and is an excellent tool for fising. Its dewgong you all know this but its really loving the increase in balance, its an incredible fit for balance and often balance doesnt like facing it. Growthpass seems to be getting better too and this thing is an absolute monster with a growth boost.



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I really dont know what the general conception is of this mon, but i know at least one top player who doesnt like it so now i feel oreallbligated to defend it. Primape is really good, Cross chop is obviously an incredibly strong move with an increased crit chance and thunder hits what it needs to suprisingly hard as well, it also cripples most of primapes checks with the para. Its far from the most reliable mon but even taking misses into account its just an incredibly powerful all out attacker. Its another benificiary of gravelgoom as it fits on there really well.



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so I had the displeasure of using this mon a little while back, and yeah it blows, but it blows in an incredibly like, interesting way. What I was expecting going in was that ghastly would take no hits and have dissapointing power and that was kinda wrong, it took a singular hit and hit suprisingly hard, but that just isnt enough to cut it. Its matchup into dugrio is just, so bad, and xatu isnt too significantly better. Its a spinblocker that cannot spinblock graveler for the life of it. It has potential on xadug but don't use this mon

and as for mons that i have thoughts but not extended ones on

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it has the suprisingly common feat of being simaltaneously overrated and underrated
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its good stop being mean to it, use hidden power rock
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steel typing makes up for base 25 hp shockingly poorly
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growthpass is good and even without that this mon is pretty solid
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it holds together an entire playstyle but that playstyle is still pretty bad, i wish it was better.
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pupitar is the perfect combination of funnyness and actual viability
 

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Was inspired by gluten to write some of my own thoughts about Kenya, aka Fearow. Take my opinions with a grain of salt btw, I'm not that experienced and there is potential for bias as Fearow is the poke that I have succeeded with the most in GSC NU.




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You may not learn Brave Bird in the later generations but you will always be the bravest bird in my heart

My most controversial opinion on GSC NU atm is probably that the viability gap between Fearow and Stantler honestly isn't as big as some ppl say and the two deserve to be in the same subrank on the VR. This probably isn't that controversial of an opinion and some people like Estarossa said that they would put Fearow right below Stantler on the VR. I, at one point, almost thought that Fearow was better overall but I'm honestly not sure.

Either way, Fearow is a beast and is one of the scariest pokemon to be looking at at full hp. It has a surprising amount of defensive utility for one of the most dangerous mons in the tier. Being able to revenge kill Xatu, Primeape, and being able to check Dugtrio in a pinch is an amazing set of qualities to have for an offensive pokemon. Obviously, Fearow isn't great at consistently switching into Xatu and Dugtrio consistently (and not at all vs Primeape) but it's still leagues more than what you could ask for a pokemon with as much potential to clean house as it does. Compared to other similarly game ending pokemon, Curse Talk Wigglytuff gets worn down quickly by spikes and it needs to be much more careful on when it rests due to its poor speed. Curse Light Screen Stantler absolutely cannot be used to deal damage early game unless you play extremely well, or are willing to give up its ability to set up a game ending sweep or wallbreaking. Curse Talk Stantler is a meme while Earthquake Rest Talk Stantler both a) arguably doesn't have as much game ending potential as Fearow does and b) is easily the worst rest talk (or recovering, in Porygon's case) normal type vs Xatu. Fearow really just has the most immediate destruction of any of the normals (except for the rock types, and I'll touch on that point in another paragraph), and is more easily able to fire off that destruction thanks to a lesser need to tip toe around losing hp, thanks to spikes immunity and higher speed, allowing it to still be useful even at low hp with spikes up.

This is where I get to talk about ceilings. While it's hard to argue against the idea that the absurdly broken Curse Light Screen Stantler has the highest ceiling of any of the standard normal types, I honestly don't think it's a stretch to say that Fearow is that far behind it. Causing destruction in the early game while being able to preserve itself for a late game revenge kill or a second round of destruction thanks to Rest, its spikes immunity, and speed, is a unique kind of ceiling that can't really be replicated by the other Rest Talk normal types. From being one of the hardest punishers into Dugtrio throwing off an Earthquake, to rubbing its... (wings? talons?) menacingly when a ~80% Dewgong switches out with spikes still up, to revenge killing Primeape or Xatu, it is not at all difficult to pull off early game wallbreaking with Fearow. Compared to the likes of Rest Talk Stantler, you don't need to baby it around as much against Xatu and it's not getting worn down by spikes. You can more safely bring it in after an explosion double-down because it will be ready to force out a Xatu or Primeape. Obviously, Rest Talk Stantler is still an insanely dangerous poke in its own right and has some huge advantages (that I will touch on in the next paragraph) but everything i've been saying is to give an idea of how, on Fearow's best day, it is going to punch holes in teams early game and still do something useful or even big in the late game.

Also, Fearow has an around 50% chance to 2HKO an Octillery with spikes chip, while Stantler can never do so. Take that as you will.

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Yes, the future is now, old man. Graveler is the face of balance and Pupitar is a legitimate part of the meta. :)

Now let's talk about Fearow's achilles heel..... or talon ig. The rocks are the entire reason why Fearow has a lower floor than Stantler. Sucking vs them is very bad the Graveler matchup is particularly bad since it spins the spikes away that Fearow loves so much. There's no way to spinblock outside of the terrible Gastly so as soon as Graveler comes into Fearow, spikes are going away. And these pebbles, alongside another negative attribute of Fearow's that I will soon bring up, both culminate into one big point about Fearow that I think is one of the more... negative separators of it from other normal types: teambuilding with it.

Fearow teams need to be built with these rocks in mind. Slapping on Octillery isn't enough, especially as it gets worn down by Graveler's super strong Earthquake, and you can forget about Pupitar. You can fill your team with other pokes that destroy these rocks but I have found the most reliable way of dealing with these rocks is once simple concept: overloading.

The idea is to pack multiple pokes on the same team that share a similar answer. While that may seem counterintuitive, what it does is that it forces the opponent to rely on that one answer to take care of multiple things on team, and that answer usually struggles to take care of all of the threats on your team by itself. Think gen 6 OU bird spam, where the tiers physical walls really struggle to take attacks from Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Dragonite all at once. None of the rocks run reliable recovery very often so this tactic works especially well on them.

The first way of overloading the rocks comes in a poke that is almost required with Fearow anyways: Pineco. Pineco can lure in the rocks as it uses Spikes and use, not Giga Drain, but Toxic. When poisoned, the rocks suddenly become extremely easy to dance around, by forcing them in with Fearow and even Pineco itself. While it may seem unrealistic to expect Pineco to be able to force the rocks in so many times over the course of a game, it makes sense when you realize that Graveler is commonly paired with pokes who have an issue with being setup fodder for Pineco, i.e Gloom. Plus, Fearow can very often get the job done on its own, as with poison and leftovers alongside Fearow's Double Edge doing a minimum of 18%, that's effectively 24% gone after Fearow attacks and 30% as soon as Fearow switches, meaning it's not a matter of if Graveler will be too weak to handle Fearow in the late game, it's only a matter of when it will be. And when Graveler goes down, Fearow truly goes wild, especially as the type of teams Graveler is found on aren't as offensive as the typical Xatu + Dugtrio teams, so Fearow is usually safer to play with its hp (especially if the very common Graveler partner, Gloom is on the team!).

Another nice way of overwhelming the rocks is Weezing. Hidden Power Water is a way to lure them in but I think Graveler players have caught on and are scouting for it. So if you're not trying to lure them in, you're fishing for Sludge Bomb poisons, as with their nasty 30% poison rate and the fact that they will likely switch into you more than a couple of times, it's reasonable to expect an eventual poison that leads them to their impending doom. However, Weezing is overall slightly difficult to fit on to the same team as Fearow, for reasons I will discuss later. But there is one more pokemon that can work together with Fearow to overwhelm the rocks, and that pokemon is Wigglytuff.

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Wigglytuff is NOT overrated!

Curse, Rest Talk Wigglytuff is one of the most broken pokemon in the tier imo and I genuienly think there's an argument to be made that it's more broken that Curse, Light Screen Stantler. Although that might be a stretch and Wigglytuff does have very noticable flaws, it doesn't take away from how fucking threatening this puffball is. Curse Wiggly doesn't have any coverage moves to hit Graveler, but that's all part of the plan. After a Curse or two, Wigglytuff is slowly chipping away at Graveler while not taking much in return. It's not worth it to set up to +6 and attempt a sweep due to crit chances but it can very realistically chip Graveler down to where it has to use Explosion, or at least chip it low enough to where it struggles to take more hits from Fearow. And all of this is assuming Graveler doesn't get hit by Toxic from the neigh mandatory partner Pineco, if it does, Wiggly wins even if it gets crit killed early by Graveler. (also a crit Earthquake from Graveler does not come close to killing so that's another point in Wiggly's favor).

Keep in mind that everything I've been saying is about Graveler, the most common pebble. As for the others, Sudowoodo isn't switching into Pineco nearly as much as Graveler is so it's not as easy to lure with Toxic. However, Wiggly can get into a curse war with it and since Sudowoodo doesn't run Rest Talk with Curse, Wiggly will chip it down. It's an even easier matchup for Wiggly because thanks to Sudowoodo's lower power compared to Graveler and it being slower than Wiggly, Wiggly doesn't even need to fear crits. A crit Rock Slide only does 62% max so Wiggly can just rest up after getting hit with one, and that's not even considering Rock Slide's lower accuracy. Once it forces a boom, Fearow can go beserk. Pupitar is a weird one, it doesn't explode like the others and Wiggly has no chance of pulling a Curse breakthrough thanks to Pupitar's Screech, meaning it can force Wiggly out while staying alive for Fearow. However, Pupitar's lower defense compared to the other pebbles means it takes far more from Fearow and Wigglytuff's Double Edge. Fearow's Double Edge does 21% minimum, and consider that Pupitar can't remove spikes like Graveler can. So despite being the only stone that doesn't need to explode to stop a Wigglytuff sweep, Pupitar is arguably easier for the Wiggly + Fearow combo to deal with.

Compared to Weezing, Wigglytuff is overall easier to fit onto the same team as Fearow because it's able to switch into Dewgong, which teams with Fearow tend to struggle to fit a safe switch in for. And that brings us to Fearow's next flaw.

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"Deeeeew-gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong gong"-dawn

When you look at the most common offensive core in the tier, Xatu, Dugtrio, Pineco, and Octillery, you may notice a notable weakness to Dewgong. Xatu and Dugtrio get destroyed by Ice Beam while Octillery can't do enough to it back. In fact, many teams share this issue. Rest Talk Normals types can be fit onto these teams to rectify the issue, such as Wigglytuff, Stantler, Dunsparce, and Porygon (ik Porygon uses Recover but, I digress). They're obviously not the only option (Chinchou and Hitmonlee) but they get the job done. They take advantage of how much weaker Dewgong is compared to Octillery and sit on it with Rest Talk while hitting it for reasonable damage in return. All except Stantler have the potential to turn it into setup fodder with Curse as well.

This is where another downfall of Fearow comes: it has to run away from Dewgong. Now, Dewgong barely switches into Fearow, especially not with spikes up, but when so many of Fearow's common teammates are weak to Dewgong, Fearow being unable to rectify this issue is a notable downside compared to its rest talking normal brethren. If Dewgong comes in and you don't have a good punisher for it while stacking many threats weak to the unkillable sea lion, you are up the creek without a paddle. If it gets a freeze on your Octillery (which it will likely have several opportunities to try to score), goodnight.

This ultimately is why I feel as if Fearow, despite having one of the highest ceiling of the normal types, is one of the harder ones to fit onto a team. You not only need to find a way to take advantage of Graveler's existence, but you need to put another poke on your team to punish Dewgong, a task that is often regaled to a normal type. Even the likes of Curse Light Screen Stantler can punish Dewgong if it comes in on a rest or is willing to risk some of its hp, as it could potentially end the game by setting up on it. However, when you consider its astronomical ceiling, it's more than worth dealing with these team building issues to enable Fearow. The likes of Curse Light Screen Stantler faces somewhat similar issues due to its lack of recovery and not much revenge killing potential which just goes to show how the most threatening pokemon in the tier need support in various ways to reach their highest ceilings.



Ultimately, Fearow is a very, very good pokemon. I haven't even gotten into how it can replace Xatu on certain teams although I haven't experimented with those kinds of teams enough to say anything about them. Fearow has its issues but its ceiling is really, really fucking high.
 

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:gs/corsola:
The painful experience wrought unto me by attempting to build a satisfying team around Corsola - a tragedy by MrSoup and I.

It all started when I was sitting in class doing diddly squat near the end of the school year, just random thoughts going in and out of my mind while I browsed Discord and YouTube on my phone. All of a sudden - Corsola in GSC NU. Why not? It has the broken 32 pp recover, it resists normal, secondary water typing for smacking Dugtrio and the rocks with STAB surf as well as granting it a neutrality to water, a resistance to ice, and a 4x resistance to fire, it has access to rock slide, and it has both curse and screech for boosting damage. It even has earthquake if you wanted to use it. However, it also has multitudinous glaring issues.

The Set
:) (Corsola) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Screech / Curse
- Rock Slide
- Surf
- Recover

Recover is mandatory and the selling point of Corsola - a normal resist with a recovery move that isn't rest. Rock slide is needed for STAB. Surf is chosen to hit Dugtrio hard on the switch and preventing the rocks from having an easy time too, as earthquake deals far less to them + the coverage it provides asides from hitting the rocks is generally minimal compared to the benefits of surf. I believe one of screech or curse is also necessary to let Corsola actually do damage and at the very least do its job of answering curse Wigglytuff.

What Corsola Actually Does
A. Counters Fearow
B. Counters Wigglytuff
C. Answers Persian (unless it has thunder or hypnosis has not been used yet)
D. Checks Xatu
E. Checks Dewgong
F. Counters Rapidash
G. Checks Mixed Flareon
H. Helps with answering Stantler
I. Resists boom
J. Checks Sudowoodo


Problems with Corsola
1. Graveler is largely better as a normal resist due to much better offensive stats, rapid spin, explosion, STAB on earthquake, and not being weak to electric.
2. As a result of Graveler usually being the much better pick, Corsola really shouldn't be used on spike-less balance-type teams with stuff like Gloom because it will leave you really just wishing you had a Graveler.
3. Weezing bullies the shit out of Corsola. Only takes like 28-33 from surf AND earthquake (low physical attack, non stab, Weezing has immense physical bulk) and is both faster than Corsola and hurts it a lot with Thunder. Sludge bomb poison is also a major pain.
4. While Corsola is not a free switch for Dugtrio (usually) due to surf, Corsola is still a ground-weak pokemon, so it cannot switch into Dugtrio at all unlike the other waters (excluding Chinchou) and it can very easily be revenge killed by Dugtrio.
5. Hitmonlee hard counters Corsola. RestTalk for longevity, resists rock, takes like nothing from surf, hits Corsola hard with STAB super-effective high jump kick.
6. Primeape, while not hard countering Corsola, switches into it easily and generates offense using Corsola. Same thing as Hitmonlee, but Primeape can crit with cross chop or use thunder to fish for paralysis or hit an incoming Xatu/Fearow while retaining the strong hit on Corsola.
7. Gives completely free entry to BoltBeam Porygon, something difficult to switch into for quite a number of Spikes teams.
8. Gives completely free entry to Chinchou. Earthquake helps with this issue, but then Corsola cannot threaten Dugtrio significantly on the switch.
9. Octillery, while it doesn't directly beat Corsola, gains extremely easy entry. Octillery does not take very much damage from rock slide and surf does practically nothing. Meanwhile, Octillery is faster, has RestTalk, and does 40%+ with surf and hp electric, so it can just sit on Corsola and fish for crits. Corsola can use screech or curse to break through Octillery, but with the crit fishing it's really risky and if using screech Octillery can just switch out and switch back in.
10. Stantler is basically the same problem as Octillery. Earthquake does 40%+ and Stantler can just keep crit fishing, especially with a RestTalk set. Curse sets meanwhile can just break right through, plain and simple.
11. Magnemite gets entry pretty easily too, whether it be on recover or curse/screech or rock slide. Surf is the only move that kind of does damage and it's still pretty weak. Earthquake does a million but that means no surf.
12. Screech and curse both have problems. Curse has significantly lower pp than screech and leaves Corsola completely unable to break Wigglytuff unlike screech, having to resort to just sitting on it and eventually I think even getting pp stalled lmao. Screech meanwhile can just be repeatedly switched around by Octillery + 1 other pokemon that Corsola needs to use screech on to do damage, and spikes don't even help that much because using screech takes a turn and Corsola is so slow and weak. Screech also leaves Corsola unable to take on Stantler.
13. Status is a killing blow. Corsola desperately needs to dodge poison and paralysis, making it basically completely unable to answer Ninetales and curse Porygon.
14. Countered by the grasses. All of them can spread status with stun spore (except Sunflora which is basically irrelevant), take very little damage from rock slide and surf, and can OHKO Corsola with grass stab if they have it (Gloom can also sludge bomb poison and Exeggcute can use sleep powder).

The Teammates of Corsola
- Ninetales is mandatory. A pokemon basically countered by Weezing needs a counter to Weezing. Rapidash and Flareon are not good choices because they get 3HKOed by sludge bomb, especially with spikes up.
- Pineco is mandatory. If you wish to not use Pineco, you would be far better off with Graveler than Corsola. Especially true if using screech rather than curse.
- Fighting check needed.
- Octillery check needed.
- Chinchou/BB Pory check needed.
- Dugtrio check needed.
- Win con needed.
- Flying type needed.
- Recovery-using normal needed.

This is a lot of support just to make one pokemon work, and not even an actually special pokemon. Corsola could easily be replaced by another one of the rocks, usually Graveler. This checklist essentially pigeonholes Corsola teams into one exact structure.

Ninetales/(Xatu or Fearow)/Corsola/Pineco/(Octillery or Dewgong)/Insert recovery-using normal type here

This is way too constricting to try and make Corsola work on a regular basis, and creates a lot of problems if you make even minor changes to movesets or pokemon.

The Journey of Building with Corsola
(click on sprites for pastes)
The First Team: :ninetales: :xatu: :corsola: :gloom: :octillery: :dunsparce:
My first try at using Corsola was a very defensive angle. Ninetales because obviously, Xatu because obviously, Gloom for helping to check Octillery/Chinchou and spreading paralysis for Dunsparce and Corsola, Octillery as the choice of bulky water because it answers opposing ice beam Octillery (which Gloom does not), and Dunsparce as a win condition and bulky normal. Dunsparce > Wigglytuff because Wigglytuff's extra special bulk was not needed with Ninetales for fires and Xatu, Octillery and Gloom for other Octillery, and Corsola for Dewgong, and I valued the extra physical defense. However, I came to a realization. This team sucks vs Pineco. Two pokemon give it free entry and I don't have my own spikes or rapid spin to match opposing spikes. It then set in that without spikes, Corsola would be on a balanced/defensive team, and on balanced/defensive teams, Graveler is the much better pick, so I needed to change that.

The Second Team: :xatu: :octillery: :pineco: :corsola: :weezing: :wigglytuff:
After this realization, my immediate thought was to just throw Corsola on a regular ol' XaDug spikes team and replace Dugtrio with Corsola because a lot of their weaknesses overlap. However, this team kinda sucks, and the answer is mostly that Xatu and my own non-recovering Weezing are really bad answers to opposing Weezing, and thus the game plan would basically hinge on the opponent exploding on my Wigglytuff with their Weezing or making poor prediction, both of which are very avoidable issues and thus the team just kind of concedes to a well-played Weezing. Dugtrio or Graveler would be a much better pick than Corsola here.

The Third Team: :dewgong: :xatu: :ninetales: :corsola: :pineco: :stantler:
My next course of action was to call upon MrSoup for assistance with a Corsola spikes team. He just randomly spouted off this set of 6 pokemon without too much thought after I told him that Ninetales and Pineco were basically needed. Dewgong is leading for no particular reason (it probably shouldn't), and the rest is pretty normal business. Stantler is rtalk rather than curse ls because I need a Chinchou answer. I have tried curse talk Dunsparce and curse talk Deer in the last slot, but both sucked (at least in comparison to eq talk Deer). One day Soup and I were just playing some friendlies and I just decided to bring this team for fun because why not, and at the end of the battle he told me my team was bad (he forgot he made it lol). The main issue with this team is that it sucks into Octillery. Dewgong is the only switch-in, and the only way it can damage Octillery is by freeze fishing, which is unreliable when Octillery can crit Dewgong or just switch out. After this, Soup and I embarked on a goal - try and optimize Corsola spikes.

The Fourth Team: :octillery: :xatu: :ninetales: :corsola: :pineco: :porygon:
First change Soup suggested I make was Dewgong gone. HP electric Octillery gives the team a much better fighting chance vs other HP elec Oct, which is important when Ninetales gives it free entry and Corsola struggles with it. Stantler needed to go because the team struggles a bit vs Dugtrio and Octillery is still a bit of an issue. Porygon helps with both. Curse + ice beam was a desperation attempt to fit both a threatening physical win con and Dugtrio checking in one slot, though I very quickly learned that a Porygon without thunder wave is very awkward to use and I do not like it, so this was later changed to BoltBeam. The main problem with this team is Chinchou. Octillery, Ninetales, and Corsola all let it in, and Porygon really really hates being paralyzed by thunder so it is not at all a decent check. BoltBeam makes the team even worse into Chinchou because now Porygon can't even break it. BoltBeam Porygon also makes the team worse into Stantler, mainly the rest talk set, because at least I can just kill curse ls Deer with Xatu or toxic it with Ninetales before it does too much, since curse Porygon can boost its defenses up in front of Deer and keep recovering off damage while BoltBeam can't do anything to rtalk Deer. Replacing Porygon with a different isn't even the best idea either becasue Wigglytuff, rtalk Persian, rtalk Deer, etc are all much worse into Dugtrio.

Off The Deep End - Damage Control: :octillery: :xatu: :ninetales: :corsola: :pineco: :porygon:
This is really where it all goes downhill. Today, I was mentioning Corsola again in a conversation and Soup asked me to give him the paste again because he wanted to see what was up since it had been a few days. Obviously, the glaring issue was the Chinchou weakness. Then came the brainstorming phase. We tried to come up with anything we could to salvage the team. Fearow was considered over Xatu for its ability to better handle Stantler, generally just output large damage, and good synergy with Octillery, toxic Ninetales, and spikes. However, it was decided against because it would compromise the team too much against Primeape and especially Hitmonlee and Kingler. Curse twave Pory was a thought, but we decided ice beam was needed for Dugtrio. Hidden power grass Ninetales helps against Chinchou, but then we lose out on the useful utility of toxic or sunny day. Curse Corsola would help a lot vs Stantler, but doesn't help at all against Chinchou and screech is much better at handling Wigglytuff and taking advantage of spikes. Drill peck Xatu was even an idea from Soup to take on Stantler and fighters better than hidden power would, and the team has plenty enough defensive backbone to handle opposing Xatu, but I don't really like it because while yes sure the team can switch into opposing Xatu just fine, our Xatu is still walled by other Xatu. Hidden power grass Octillery was the first definite change made. Compresses hitting Dugtrio and other Octillery into one slot, as well as hitting Chinchou pretty hard. The team can handle opposing Xatu and Fearow plenty well enough, and Octillery still has STAB surf to smack them with. Hidden power electric was placed on Xatu as ice was less needed for Dugtrio when Octillery had a second move to hit Dugtrio while sleep talking and Porygon has ice beam. Toxic was replaced by sunny day on Ninetales mainly to assist with Chinchou, weakening surf and reducing thunder accuracy. The power boost is also nice for Ninetales to be able to 2/3HKO a lot more targets. I even thought about using fire blast over flamethrower for the ability to potentially 3HKO Chinchou under sun and just generally do a lot of damage, but I chose not to because the pp count is really low and Chinchou will still likely be able to dodge a 3HKO anyways with poor fire blast damage rolls, misses, and rest being called by sleep talk. Honestly, this Porygon should probably be curse beam (even though I don't like twave-less Pory), but Soup and I just kind of gave up at this point. A lot of mental energy expended and headaches created just to try and making fucken Corsola work lmao. I still don't think the team is great as is, obviously mainly having issues with Chinchou and rtalk Stantler but also Octillery, Dugtrio, Pupitar, Primeape, Hitmonlee/Kingler + Houndour, and probably more. I hate to admit defeat, but I will.

I'm sorry. Corsola is a failed experiment.

Thank you to MrSoup for sticking with me throughout this voyage and trying his best to make Corsola work (and going crazy) along with me. Hopefully the wider GSC NU community might be able to create a better Corsola team than Soup and I, but maybe not, who knows. Happy teambuilding and I hope this was an enjoyable, even thought-provoking read.

:)
:gs/corsola:
 
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MrSoup

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:gs/corsola:
The painful experience wrought unto me by attempting to build a satisfying team around Corsola - a tragedy by MrSoup and I.

It all started when I was sitting in class doing diddly squat near the end of the school year, just random thoughts going in and out of my mind while I browsed Discord and YouTube on my phone. All of a sudden - Corsola in GSC NU. Why not? It has the broken 32 pp recover, it resists normal, secondary water typing for smacking Dugtrio and the rocks with STAB surf as well as granting it a neutrality to water, a resistance to ice, and a 4x resistance to fire, it has access to rock slide, and it has both curse and screech for boosting damage. It even has earthquake if you wanted to use it. However, it also has multitudinous glaring issues.

The Set
:) (Corsola) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Screech / Curse
- Rock Slide
- Surf
- Recover

Recover is mandatory and the selling point of Corsola - a normal resist with a recovery move that isn't rest. Rock slide is needed for STAB. Surf is chosen to hit Dugtrio hard on the switch and preventing the rocks from having an easy time too, as earthquake deals far less to them + the coverage it provides asides from hitting the rocks is generally minimal compared to the benefits of surf. I believe one of screech or curse is also necessary to let Corsola actually do damage and at the very least do its job of answering curse Wigglytuff.

What Corsola Actually Does
A. Counters Fearow
B. Counters Wigglytuff
C. Answers Persian (unless it has thunder or hypnosis has not been used yet)
D. Checks Xatu
E. Checks Dewgong
F. Counters Rapidash
G. Checks Mixed Flareon
H. Helps with answering Stantler
I. Resists boom
J. Checks Sudowoodo


Problems with Corsola
1. Graveler is largely better as a normal resist due to much better offensive stats, rapid spin, explosion, STAB on earthquake, and not being weak to electric.
2. As a result of Graveler usually being the much better pick, Corsola really shouldn't be used on spike-less balance-type teams with stuff like Gloom because it will leave you really just wishing you had a Graveler.
3. Weezing bullies the shit out of Corsola. Only takes like 28-33 from surf AND earthquake (low physical attack, non stab, Weezing has immense physical bulk) and is both faster than Corsola and hurts it a lot with Thunder. Sludge bomb poison is also a major pain.
4. While Corsola is not a free switch to Dugtrio (usually) due to surf, Corsola is still a ground-weak pokemon, so it cannot switch into Dugtrio at all unlike the other waters (excluding Chinchou) and it can very easily be revenge killed by Dugtrio.
5. Hitmonlee hard counters Corsola. RestTalk for longevity, resists rock, takes like nothing from surf, hits Corsola hard with STAB super-effective high jump kick.
6. Primeape, while not hard countering Corsola, switches into it easily and generates offense using Corsola. Same thing as Hitmonlee, but Primeape can crit with cross chop or use thunder to fish for paralysis or hit an incoming Xatu/Fearow while retaining the strong hit on Corsola.
7. Gives completely free entry to BoltBeam Porygon, something difficult to switch into for quite a number of Spikes teams.
8. Gives completely free entry to Chinchou. Earthquake helps with this issue, but then Corsola cannot threaten Dugtrio significantly on the switch.
9. Octillery, while it doesn't directly beat Corsola, gains extremely easy entry. Octillery does not take very much damage from rock slide and surf does practically nothing. Meanwhile, Octillery is faster, has RestTalk, and does 40%+ with surf and hp electric, so it can just sit on Corsola and fish for crits. Corsola can use screech or curse to break through Octillery, but with the crit fishing it's really risky and if using screech Octillery can just switch out and switch back in.
10. Stantler is basically the same problem as Octillery. Earthquake does 40%+ and Stantler can just keep crit fishing, especially with a RestTalk set. Curse sets meanwhile can just break right through, plain and simple.
11. Magnemite gets entry pretty easily too, whether it be on recover or curse/screech or rock slide. Surf is the only move that kind of does damage and it's still pretty weak. Earthquake does a million but that means no surf.
12. Screech and curse both have problems. Curse has significantly lower pp than screech and leaves Corsola completely unable to break Wigglytuff unlike screech, having to resort to just sitting on it and eventually I think even getting pp stalled lmao. Screech meanwhile can just be repeatedly switched around by Octillery + 1 other pokemon that Corsola needs to use screech on to do damage, and spikes don't even help that much because using screech takes a turn and Corsola is so slow and weak. Screech also leaves Corsola unable to take on Stantler.
13. Status is a killing blow. Corsola desperately needs to dodge poison and paralysis, making it basically completely unable to answer Ninetales and curse Porygon.
14. Countered by the grasses. All of them can spread status with stun spore (except Sunflora which is basically irrelevant), take very little damage from rock slide and surf, and can OHKO Corsola with grass stab if they have it (Gloom can also sludge bomb poison and Exeggcute can use sleep powder).

The Teammates of Corsola
- Ninetales is mandatory. A pokemon basically countered by Weezing needs a counter to Weezing. Rapidash and Flareon are not good choices because they get 3HKOed by sludge bomb, especially with spikes up.
- Pineco is mandatory. If you wish to not use Pineco, you would be far better off with Graveler than Corsola. Especially true if using screech rather than curse.
- Fighting check needed.
- Octillery check needed.
- Chinchou/BB Pory check needed.
- Dugtrio check needed.
- Win con needed.
- Flying type needed.
- Recovery-using normal needed.

This is a lot of support just to make one pokemon work, and not even an actually special pokemon. Corsola could easily be replaced by another one of the rocks, usually Graveler. This checklist essentially pigeonholes Corsola teams into one exact structure.

Ninetales/(Xatu or Fearow)/Corsola/Pineco/(Octillery or Dewgong)/Insert recovery-using normal type here

This is way too constricting to try and make Corsola work on a regular basis, and creates a lot of problems if you make even minor changes to movesets or pokemon.

The Journey of Building with Corsola
(click on sprites for pastes)
The First Team: :ninetales: :xatu: :corsola: :gloom: :octillery: :dunsparce:
My first try at using Corsola was a very defensive angle. Ninetales because obviously, Xatu because obviously, Gloom for helping to check Octillery/Chinchou and spreading paralysis for Dunsparce and Corsola, Octillery as the choice of bulky water because it answers opposing ice beam Octillery (which Gloom does not), and Dunsparce as a win condition and bulky normal. Dunsparce > Wigglytuff because Wigglytuff's extra special bulk was not needed with Ninetales for fires and Xatu, Octillery and Gloom for other Octillery, and Corsola for Dewgong, and I valued the extra physical defense. However, I came to a realization. This team sucks vs Pineco. Two pokemon give it free entry and I don't have my own spikes or rapid spin to match opposing spikes. It then set in that without spikes, Corsola would be on a balanced/defensive team, and on balance/defensive teams, Graveler is the much better pick, so I needed to change that.

The Second Team: :xatu: :octillery: :pineco: :corsola: :weezing: :wigglytuff:
After this realization, my immediate thought was to just throw Corsola on a regular ol' XaDug spikes team and replace Dugtrio with Corsola because a lot of their weaknesses overlap. However, this team kinda sucks, and the answer is mostly that Xatu and my own non-recovering Weezing are really bad answers to opposing Weezing, and thus the game plan would basically hinge on the opponent exploding on my Wigglytuff with their Weezing or making poor prediction, both of which are very avoidable issues and thus the team just kind of concedes to a well-played Weezing. Dugtrio or Graveler would be a much better pick than Corsola here.

The Third Team: :dewgong: :xatu: :ninetales: :corsola: :pineco: :stantler:
My next course of action was to call upon MrSoup for assistance with a Corsola spikes team. He just randomly spouted off this set of 6 pokemon without too much thought after I told him that Ninetales and Pineco were basically needed. Dewgong is leading for no particular reason (it probably shouldn't), and the rest is pretty normal business. Stantler is rtalk rather than curse ls because I need a Chinchou answer. I have tried curse talk Dunsparce and curse talk Deer in the last slot, but both sucked (at least in comparison to eq talk Deer). One day Soup and I were just playing some friendlies and I just decided to bring this team for fun because why not, and at the end of the battle he told me my team was bad (he forgot he made it lol). The main issue with this team is that it sucks into Octillery. Dewgong is the only switch-in, and the only way it can damage Octillery is by freeze fishing, which is unreliable when Octillery can crit Dewgong or just switch out. After this, Soup and I embarked on a goal - try and optimize Corsola spikes.

The Fourth Team: :octillery: :xatu: :ninetales: :corsola: :pineco: :porygon:
First change Soup suggested I make was Dewgong gone. HP electric Octillery gives the team a much better fighting chance vs other HP elec Oct, which is important when Ninetales gives it free entry and Corsola struggles with it. Stantler needed to go because the team struggles a bit vs Dugtrio and Octillery is still a bit of an issue. Porygon helps with both. Curse + ice beam was a desperation attempt to fit both a threatening physical win con and Dugtrio checking in one slot, though I very quickly learned that a Porygon without thunder wave is very awkward to use and I do not like it, so this was later changed to BoltBeam. The main problem with this team is Chinchou. Octillery, Ninetales, and Corsola all let it in, and Porygon really really hates being paralyzed by thunder so it is not at all a decent check. BoltBeam makes the team even worse into Chinchou because now Porygon can't even break it. BoltBeam Porygon also makes the team worse into Stantler, mainly the rest talk set, because at least I can just kill curse ls Deer with Xatu or toxic it with Ninetales before it does too much, since curse Porygon can boost its defenses up in front of Deer and keep recovering off damage while BoltBeam can't do anything to rtalk Deer. Replacing Porygon with a different isn't even the best idea either becasue Wigglytuff, rtalk Persian, rtalk Deer, etc are all much worse into Dugtrio.

Off The Deep End - Damage Control: :octillery: :xatu: :ninetales: :corsola: :pineco: :porygon:
This is really where it all goes downhill. Today, I was mentioning Corsola again in a conversation and Soup asked me to give him the paste again because he wanted to see what was up since it had been a few days. Obviously, the glaring issue was the Chinchou weakness. Then came the brainstorming phase. We tried to come up with anything we could to salvage the team. Fearow was considered over Xatu for its ability to better handle Stantler, generally just output large damage, and good synergy with Octillery, toxic Ninetales, and spikes. However, it was decided against because it would compromise the team too much against Primeape and especially Hitmonlee. Curse twave Pory was a thought, but we decided ice beam was needed for Dugtrio. Hidden power grass Ninetales helps against Chinchou, but then we lose out on the useful utility of toxic or sunny day. Curse Corsola would help a lot vs Stantler, but doesn't help at all against Chinchou and screech is much better at handling Wigglytuff and taking advantage of spikes. Drill peck Xatu was even an idea from Soup to take on Stantler and fighters better than hidden power would, and the team has plenty enough defensive backbone to handle opposing Xatu, but I don't really like it because while yes sure the team can switch into opposing Xatu just fine, our Xatu is still walled by other Xatu. Hidden power grass Octillery was the first definite change made. Compresses hitting Dugtrio and other Octillery into one slot, as well as hitting Chinchou pretty hard. The team can handle opposing Xatu and Fearow plenty well enough, and Octillery still has STAB surf to smack them with. Hidden power electric was placed on Xatu as ice was less needed for Dugtrio when Octillery had a second move to hit Dugtrio while sleep talking and Porygon has ice beam. Toxic was replaced by sunny day on Ninetales mainly to assist with Chinchou, weakening surf and reducing thunder accuracy. The power boost is also nice for Ninetales to be able to 2/3HKO a lot more targets. I even thought about using fire blast over flamethrower for the ability to potentially 3HKO Chinchou under sun and just generally do a lot of damage, but I chose not to because the pp count is really low and Chinchou will still likely be able to dodge a 3HKO anyways with poor fire blast damage rolls, misses, and rest being called by sleep talk. Honestly, this Porygon should probably be curse beam (even though I don't like twave-less Pory), but Soup and I just kind of gave up at this point. A lot of mental energy expended and headaches created just to try and making fuckin Corsola work lmao. I still don't think the team is great as is, obviously mainly having issues with Chinchou and rtalk Stantler but also Octillery, Dugtrio, Pupitar, Primeape, Hitmonlee/Kingler + Houndour, and probably more. I hate to admit defeat, but I will.

I'm sorry. Corsola is a failed experiment.

Thank you to MrSoup for sticking with me throughout this voyage and trying his best to make Corsola work (and going crazy) along with me. Hopefully the wider GSC NU community might be able to create a better Corsola team than Soup and I, but maybe not, who knows. Happy teambuilding and I hope this was an enjoyable, even thought-provoking read.

:)
:gs/corsola:
I still think drill peck Xatu is the move here

real talk this is an amazing post bee and I honestly think the final team is decent and only really struggles with broken deer
 

BeeOrSomething

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GSC NU ROLE COMPENDIUM
:gs/Xatu: :gs/Weezing: :gs/Dewgong: :gs/Magmar: :gs/Octillery: :gs/Primeape: :gs/Chinchou: :gs/Wigglytuff: :gs/Sudowoodo: :gs/Pineco: :gs/rapidash::gs/stantler: :gs/kingler: :gs/Sneasel: :gs/lickitung: :gs/Vileplume::gs/Fearow: :gs/graveler: :gs/Dugtrio: :gs/Ninetales: :gs/Pidgeot::gs/Flareon::gs/Hitmonlee: :gs/Persian: :gs/Ledian: :gs/Magnemite:

The way the Pokemon are ordered on their respective role is by their effectivness in that role!

1:Entry Hazards and Spinners

Spikers: :pineco: :delibird:

Spinners: :wartortle: :graveler: :staryu::pineco: :tentacool::hitmontop: :hitmonchan: :hitmonlee: :kabuto: :sandshrew::shellder:

2:Offensive Roles

Physical Attackers: :primeape: :fearow: :stantler: :kingler: :sudowoodo: :hitmonlee: :lickitung: :Pupitar: :arbok::hitmonchan: :persian: :hitmontop: :machoke: :seaking: :raticate:

Special Attackers: :xatu::octillery: :magmar: :magnemite: :flareon: :seadra: :dewgong: :gastly: :abra: :houndour: :ninetales: :porygon: :omanyte:

Mixed Attackers: :weezing: :wigglytuff: :rapidash: :murkrow:

Setup Sweepers

Swords Dance: :kingler: :lickitung: :cubone: :seaking: :parasect: :farfetch’d: :weepinbell: :beedrill: :bayleef: :gloom: :tentacool: :sandshrew:

Growth: :flareon: :sunflora: :tangela: :parasect: :ariados: :poliwhirl:

Belly Drum: :poliwhirl: :charmeleon::azumarill: :slowpoke: :lickitung::clefairy:

Curse: :sudowoodo: :wigglytuff: :fearow: :pidgeot: :stantler: :hitmonchan: :graveler: :dunsparce: :weezing: :noctowl: :ariados: :hitmontop: :mantine: :venomoth: :togetic: :machoke: :croconaw: :pupitar: :porygon:

Sharpen: :onix: :porygon:

Meditate: :primeape: :hitmonlee: :elekid: :machoke:

Agility: :ledian: :fearow: :farfetch’d: :pidgeot: :ariados: :hitmonchan: :hitmontop:

Other Offensive Roles

Pursuit: :houndour: :murkrow: :elekid: :pidgeot: :fearow: :pupitar: :ariados: :dunsparce: :dugtrio: :hitmonchan: :raticate:

Explosion/Self-Destruct: :weezing: :sudowoodo: :pineco: :exeggcute: :gastly: :onix: :grimer::shellder: :voltorb:

Weather Setters/Abusers

Rain Dance: :dragonair::wigglytuff: :mantine: :sneasel:

Rain Abusers: :seadra: :chinchou: :octillery:

Sunny Day: :persian: :rapidash: :wigglytuff: :sudowoodo:

Sun Abusers: :magmar: :rapidash: :flareon: :sudowoodo:

Sandstorm: :graveler: :sudowoodo: :dugtrio: :corsola: :shuckle: :pupitar: :rhyhorn: :onix: :lickitung:

Sand Abusers: :sudowoodo: :dugtrio: :graveler: :corsola:

3:Utility Roles

Baton Pass users and Recipents


Baton Pass: :ledian: :flareon: :ariados: :farfetch’d: :venomoth::aipom:

Baton Pass Recipents: :cubone: :octillery: :fearow: :xatu:

Screen and Charm users

Reflect: :dragonair: :wigglytuff: :bayleef: :noctowl: :ninetales: :ledian: :stantler::flareon: :sneasel: :rapidash: :venomoth: :ivysaur: :magnemite: :tentacool:

Light Screen: :ledian::dragonair: :azumarill: :stantler::bayleef: :flaaffy: :parasect: :ivysaur: :chinchou: :drowzee::machoke:

Charm: :persian: :togetic: :wigglytuff: :flareon::rapidash: :nidorina: :snubbull: :flaaffy:

Paralysis Spreaders

Thunder Wave: :wigglytuff: :dragonair: :flaaffy::porygon: :abra: :chinchou: :magnemite: :slowpoke: :clefairy:

Stun Spore: :venomoth::exeggcute: :tangela: :butterfree: :parasect: :gloom: :skiploom: :weepinbell:

Body Slam: :rapidash: :dewgong: :arbok: :hitmonchan: :hitmonlee: :kingler: :lickitung: :magcargo: :magmar: :ninetales: :parasect: :persian: :primeape: :raticate: :wigglytuff: :graveler: :poliwhirl: :wartortle:

Glare: :arbok: :dunsparce:

Trappers and Partial Trappers

Mean Look: :golbat: :murkrow: :gastly: :smoochum: :grimer:

Spider Web: :ariados:

Whirlpool: :azumarill: :dewgong: :corsola: :octillery: :mantine: :chinchou: :croconaw:

Wrap: :shuckle: :lickitung::dragonair::arbok:

Sleepers

Hypnosis: :persian: :rapidash: :stantler: :noctowl: :ninetales:

Sleep Powder: :tangela: :exeggcute: :venomoth: :ivysaur::butterfree: :skiploom: :weepinbell:

Lovely Kiss: :poliwhirl::nidorino: :nidorina::snubbull:

Sing: :wigglytuff: :clefairy:

Spore: :parasect:

Phazers

Roar: :ninetales: :croconaw: :rhyhorn: :flareon::persian: :stantler: :rhyhorn: :snubbull: :onix:

Whirlwind: :pidgeot: :noctowl: :golbat::fearow: :venomoth: :butterfree: :yanma:

Miscellaneous

Encore: :dewgong: :shuckle: :togetic: :skiploom::machoke: :clefairy: :skiploom: :abra:

Heal Bell: :snubbull:

Destiny Bond: :weezing: :wobbuffet: :gastly:

Haze: :xatu: :weezing: :dragonair::arbok: :wartortle::mantine:

Perish Song: :azumarill: :wigglytuff: :dewgong: :gastly:

4:Defensive Roles:

Physically Defensive: :sudowoodo: :kingler: :graveler: :weezing: :tangela: :magcargo: :exeggcute:

Specially Defensive: :hitmonlee: :mantine: :flareon: :ledian: :noctowl: :dragonair: :hitmonchan:

Mixed Walls: :dewgong: :shuckle: :wigglytuff: :chinchou: :azumarill: :hitmontop: :corsola: :dunsparce: :lickitung: :ninetales:
:wartortle: :machoke:

Reliable Recovery Users

Recover: :corsola: :porygon: :staryu:

Moonlight: :sneasel: :nidorina: :nidorino: :exeggcute: :clefairy: :gloom:

Synthesis: :sunflora: :parasect: :tangela: :bayleef: :ivysaur: :skiploom:

Counters/Checks to top Metagame threats

Xatu Checks/Counters: :dewgong: :sneasel: :magnemite: :chinchou: :sudowoodo: :houndour::xatu:

Dewgong Checks/Counters: :chinchou: :primeape: :hitmonlee: :elekid: :azumarill::hitmonchan: :hitmontop:

Weezing Checks/Counters: :xatu: :dugtrio: :magnemite: :sudowoodo: :venomoth: :graveler:

Octillery Checks/Counters: :dewgong: :chinchou: :bayleef: :mantine: :magnemite:

Magmar Checks/Counters: :rapidash: :dewgong: :azumarill: :chinchou: :octillery:

Primape Checks/Counters: :exeggcute: :weezing: :fearow: :xatu: :arbok: :pineco:
I'm updating this because I'm bored and it offends my eyes. Only viable pokemon here, none of this crap like parasect or nidorino,. This also means if there are no viable users of a move then that move will not be listed. Also I am extending the definition of "viable" but not so much as to include actual garbage, just usable/functional garbage. Placements are still somewhat ordered by general effectiveness in my personal opinion.

GSC NU ROLE COMPENDIUM MK II.

1. The Hazard Game

Spikes: :pineco:

Rapid Spin: :graveler: :pineco: :hitmontop: :hitmonchan:

2. Offensive Roles

Physical Attackers: :stantler: :fearow: :dugtrio: :primeape: :persian: :wigglytuff: :kingler: :graveler: :porygon: :sudowoodo: :pupitar: :dunsparce: :gloom: :hitmonlee: :raticate:

Special Attackers: :xatu: :octillery: :dewgong: :porygon: :chinchou: :flareon: :magnemite: :ninetales:

Mixed Attackers: :weezing: :magmar: :flareon: :rapidash:

- Setup Sweepers

Swords Dance: :kingler: :lickitung: :farfetchd::gloom: :cubone: :seaking:

Curse: :stantler: :wigglytuff: :porygon: :sudowoodo: :weezing: :gloom: :dunsparce: :venomoth: :arbok:

Growth: :flareon: :tangela: :sunflora:

Agility: :ledian: :farfetchd: :ariados: :porygon:

Meditate: :primeape: :hitmonlee:

Belly Drum: :poliwhirl: :lickitung:

- Other Offensive Roles

Pursuit: :houndour:

Explosion/Self-Destruct: :weezing: :pineco: :sudowoodo: :graveler: :exeggcute: :gastly:

Thief: :persian: :stantler: :weezing: :porygon: :magmar: :primeape: :exeggcute: :tangela:

- Weather

Sunny Day: :magmar: :ninetales: :flareon:

3. Utility Roles

- Baton Pass


Growth Pass: :flareon:

Agility Pass: :ledian: :farfetchd:

Swords Dance Pass: :farfetchd:

Curse Pass: :venomoth:

Growth Pass Recipient: :dewgong: :xatu: :octillery: :magmar: :wigglytuff: :magnemite:

Agility Recipient: :stantler: :cubone: :wigglytuff: :magmar: :weezing: :pupitar:

Swords Dance Recipient: :dugtrio: :stantler: :fearow: :primeape: :persian: :rapidash: :wigglytuff: :hitmonlee:

Curse Pass Recipient: :stantler: :wigglytuff:

- Screens

Reflect: :dragonair: :ledian: :ninetales: :bayleef: :pineco: :magnemite:

Light Screen: :dragonair: :stantler: :ledian: :bayleef: :azumarill: :chinchou:

- Paralysis Spreaders

Thunder Wave: :porygon: :dragonair: :chinchou: :wigglytuff:

Stun Spore: :gloom: :exeggcute: :tangela: :venomoth:

Body Slam: :wigglytuff: :hitmonlee: :kingler: :lickitung: :bayleef:

Glare: :dunsparce: :arbok:

Thunder: :chinchou: :magnemite: :weezing: :primeape: :porygon: :wigglytuff:

- Trappers

Spider Web: :ariados:

Whirlpool: :azumarill:

Wrap: :shuckle:

- Sleepers

Hypnosis: :persian: :stantler:

Sleep Powder: :exeggcute: :tangela: :gloom: :venomoth:

Lovely Kiss: :poliwhirl:

- Phazers

Roar: :ninetales: :flareon:

- Miscellaneous

Encore: :dewgong:

Destiny Bond: :weezing: :gastly:

Haze: :weezing: :mantine:

Perish Song: :azumarill:

4. Defensive Roles

Physically Defensive: :weezing: :sudowoodo: :graveler: :kingler: :tangela: :shuckle:

Specially Defensive: :hitmonlee: :chinchou: :flareon: :noctowl: :mantine: :hitmontop:

Mixed Walls: :dewgong: :ninetales: :wigglytuff: :octillery: :porygon: :dunsparce: :lickitung: :rapidash:

- Reliable Recovery Users

Recover: :porygon: :corsola:

Moonlight: :gloom: :sneasel: :exeggcute:

Synthesis: :bayleef: :tangela: :sunflora:

- Checks/Counters to relevant Metagame threats (no particular order)

Xatu: :dewgong: :houndour: :magnemite: :octillery: :ninetales: :rapidash: :wigglytuff: :porygon: :flareon: :dunsparce: :persian: :sneasel: :xatu::azumarill:

Octillery: :chinchou: :hitmonlee: :octillery::dewgong: :porygon: :gloom: :dragonair: :exeggcute: :bayleef: :mantine::hitmontop::azumarill:

Weezing: :ninetales: :xatu: :weezing: :dugtrio: :sudowoodo: :graveler: :pupitar: :rapidash: :shuckle:

Stantler: :xatu: :fearow: :pineco: :weezing: :sudowoodo: :porygon: :primeape: :graveler: :shuckle:

Dugtrio: :octillery: :dewgong: :pineco: :xatu: :fearow: :exeggcute: :gloom: :bayleef::azumarill:

Fearow: :graveler: :sudowoodo: :pupitar: :magnemite: :dewgong: :weezing: :shuckle::corsola:

Dewgong: :chinchou: :wigglytuff: :primeape: :stantler: :hitmonlee: :porygon: :dunsparce: :persian: :octillery: :mantine::hitmontop::azumarill:

Primeape: :weezing: :gloom: :xatu: :fearow: :exeggcute: :pineco: :dugtrio: :shuckle:

Wigglytuff: :pineco: :weezing: :primeape: :magnemite: :sudowoodo: :pupitar: :graveler: :hitmonlee: :magmar: :octillery: :gastly: :shuckle::corsola:

Kingler: :xatu: :weezing: :magmar: :pineco: :primeape: :sudowoodo:

Chinchou: :wigglytuff::stantler: :dugtrio: :hitmonlee: :primeape: :persian: :dunsparce: :magnemite:

Magmar: :ninetales: :octillery: :rapidash: :dugtrio: :sudowoodo: :graveler: :pupitar::azumarill:

Flareon: :octillery: :dewgong: :chinchou: :sudowoodo: :graveler: :pupitar: :dugtrio: :rapidash: :ninetales: :stantler: :mantine: :kingler::azumarill:

Rapidash: :octillery: :dewgong: :sudowoodo: :graveler: :pupitar: :porygon: :dugtrio: :rapidash: :flareon: :kingler::corsola::azumarill:

Ninetales: :octillery: :dewgong: :chinchou: :sudowoodo: :graveler: :pupitar: :dugtrio: :hitmonlee: :rapidash: :flareon::azumarill:

Graveler: :octillery: :dewgong: :porygon: :dugtrio: :stantler: :xatu: :gloom: :exeggcute: :tangela: :primeape: :hitmonlee: :kingler::azumarill:

Sudowoodo: :octillery: :dewgong: :dugtrio: :porygon: :primeape: :gloom: :exeggcute: :hitmonlee: :kingler::azumarill:

Hitmonlee: :weezing: :xatu: :fearow: :gloom: :pineco: :exeggcute: :dugtrio: :rapidash: :primeape: :shuckle: :gastly:

Magnemite: :ninetales: :dugtrio: :pupitar: :rapidash: :graveler: :hitmonlee: :primeape: :stantler: :weezing: :flareon: :magmar:

Porygon: :wigglytuff: :ninetales: :magnemite: :pineco: :weezing: :primeape: :hitmonlee: :sudowoodo: :pupitar:
 
Last edited:

BeeOrSomething

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Underrated Threats in GSC NU

Sneasel
:gs/sneasel:
Sneasel @ Leftovers / No Item
Ability: No Ability
- Return
- Screech
- Toxic / Thief
- Moonlight
Sneasel is a hard counter to Xatu and a great answer to RestTalk Dewgong with its Ice/Dark typing, solid special defense, and Moonlight for healing, using them to spread damage with Screech, Toxic or Thief, and Spikes support from Pineco. The main difference with this set is the lack of Dynamic Punch, which imo is definitely an improvement because poisoning the rocks and such is much better than trying to hit them with an highly inaccurate move. Sneasel should be paired with Pineco (for obvious reasons) and Graveler (since it struggles with Pineco), which can be a little constricting. Toxic is a move you can click much more freely and wears down Graveler and the other rocks quite fast, but Thief can be used to cripple Weezing. I think Toxic is generally better since if the opponent has a rock AND Weezing you can only choose to cripple one of them, made even worse if the opponent switches their Pineco into your Thief instead of something else, however it still has merit because Toxic does nothing to Weezing. Main problems with Sneasel are the difficulty of putting it on a team, compounded by competition with Houndour, Weezing existing, and it having quite a lot of common weaknesses, potentially being ran out of Moonlight in certain situations due to low pp, and hating status. However, it's a pretty nice enabler for more Xatu-weak physical-based Spikes + Graveler offenses, though admittedly this is quite a small window of parameters. Solid B-tier Pokemon.

Pidgeot
:gs/pidgeot:
Pidgeot @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Reflect / Return
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Pidge appears hard outclassed by Fearow, and for the most part, it is. However, it has some notable advantages. The main ones are access to Reflect and better bulk (more so on the special side). Higher special defense allows Pidgeot to be favored to survive a 3HKO from Xatu Hidden Power Ice/Electric, though Double-Edge recoil pushes it over the line. This is more just a demonstration of Pidgeot's solid bulk. Return can be used as a second strong STAB move since Pidge lacks Drill Peck and is more so for when Pidgeot is on an offensive team whether over Fearow or alongside Fearow. However, I want to mostly focus on Reflect. Reflect allows Pidgeot to be the best non-Shuckle answer to RestTalk Stantler who otherwise walks all over more balanced/defensive teams. Pidge is faster, has enough bulk to have a decent chance to survive a 3HKO from Frustration, is completely immune to both Spikes and Earthquake, 3HKOes Stantler back with STAB Double-Edge, has Rest and Sleep Talk to keep it consistently healthy, and most importantly has Reflect to prevent Stantler from really doing meaningful damage and forcing it out. Normal also being the amazing typing it is has minimal resists, and rock types like Graveler can get worn down. Main issues with Pidgeot are of course competition with other normal types, mainly Fearow, having a lot of weaknesses like Ice, Electric, and Rock, and while it's pretty bulky it still doesn't have quite enough for threats like Octillery, Fearow, STAB Fire Blast users, etc.

Raticate
:gs/raticate:
Raticate @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Super Fang
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Rat is another decently strong pure normal type with STAB Double-Edge and a couple other cool tools. Super Fang and outrunning Xatu and Primeape are the most notable reasons to use Rat. Super Fang does good damage to everything, importantly chunking Weezing and the rocks a lot harder than Double-Edge. With Super Fang, Rat doesn't necessarily need much else so RestTalk is nice to keep it alive against Dewgong and Xatu and such. Super Fang accuracy is kind of a bitch lol it's so annoying when it misses. Rat also doesn't have enough power to KO things with one Double-Edge after using Super Fang so sometimes opposing RestTalkers can just roll rest after Rat uses Super fang and Double-edge and then be right back at 100% health and ready to hit Raticate hard again. Rat also has heavy competition with Fearow being both slower and weaker so ideally you should use Rat alongside Fearow. Rat really likes having Pineco and Graveler support too. Probably around B tier or so.
Raticate @ Leftovers / No Item
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Super Fang
- Hidden Power [Water] / Hidden Power [Ground] / Thief
- Screech / Thief
This Rat chooses to drop RestTalk for maximum utility/disruption. Hidden power water puts a serious charge into Graveler and Pupitar, being able to do more than super fang when the rocks are full and finishing them off after a super fang. HP Ground can be used instead to smack Magnemite, though Magnemite isn't very common. Thief steals the Leftovers from Weezing, Dewgong, a rock, or some other Pokemon. Screech when combined with Spikes, Rat's speed, and STAB Double-Edge can spread some serious damage onto the opponent's team. This Rat should be used alongside Fearow. Imo this is a mostly better version of lead disruptor Pidgeot (Dedge/HP Grass/Toxic/Thief) since it's faster, has Super Fang, is slightly stronger, and can use Screech. RestTalk will be more consistent because it has actual longevity but I still think this set is good in its own way.

Lickitung
:gs/lickitung:
Lickitung @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Earthquake
- Protect
In the lead, this Lickitung is surprisingly dangerous. It's quite bulky and gets a pretty easy SD against common leads like Xatu and with Protect is hard to take down. Does a lot of damage early game and 2HKOes Pineco after an SD. Consistently can take down 1-2 pokemon against the right team. Not all perfect though. It has basically no defensive utility, has awful matchups against lead Weezing, Pineco, and Persian, and is smacked by fighting moves and explosion. Also really slow. I think it's B or at least B- worthy though.

Furret
:gs/furret:
Furret @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Surf
- Amnesia / Protect
Mini Stantler. Surf is the only reason to use this thing. 38.5% chance to OHKO Graveler from full and becomes guaranteed if you hit it with Double-Edge on the switch or have Spikes up (that Graveler somehow hasn't spun away yet) or it's poisoned. Also 3HKOes Sudowoodo with Spikes up and does 60+ to Pupitar. Curse + Amnesia mimics Stantler's Curse + Light Screen, and Furret's Double-Edge is actually ever so slightly stronger than Stantler's Frustration, albeit with recoil. Furret should really be used alongside Stantler ideally. Not having Earthquake is a major pain and makes it severely worse vs Weezing (and also Magnemite), Stantler doesn't have to take recoil to use its STAB move, and Stantler has slightly more special bulk. Decent pokemon, maybe like C or at best B- tier.

Seaking
:gs/seaking:
Seaking @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk
- Swords Dance
- Double-Edge / Return
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Agility
Kingler 2. Much specially bulkier and access to Agility. Kingler is individually much better but if you really want the special bulk or you can afford to use both of them on the same team, Seaking can put in work.

Noctowl
:gs/noctowl:
Noctowl @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Return
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Extremely bulky, with 100 base HP and 96 base special defense. Doesn't even take 30% from Xatu Hidden Power and Octillery Surf only does a couple percent more. As per usual, still plenty of flaws. Weak to Ice, Electric, and Rock, severely vulnerable to crits, will likely lose to other Curse users, hates Explosion, physically frail before setup, helpless against normal resists, etc. Still a decent choice.

Sets people should use more

Sunny Day Ninetales
:gs/ninetales:
Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Sunny Day
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Sunny Day Tales is really good. Ninetales tends to struggle with power and Octillery, and Sunny Day (somewhat) fixes both of those. Turns a lot of 3HKOes into 2HKOes and 4HKOes into 3HKOes. Under sun, Dewgong only does about 25 to Ninetales with Surf and takes 36-43 back from Flamethrower, Chinchou is completely neutered because Surf gets weakened to nothing and Thunder becomes 50% accurate, and Oct gets weakened enough to where things like RestTalk Stantler can actually become decent switch-ins. You lose out on Toxic so things like the rocks and Kingler and Porygon and such become a bit harder for Ninetales to deal with but I think the benefits of Sunny Day are really nice. Toxic still has its place though.

Hidden Power Rock Kingler
:gs/kingler:
Kingler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Swords Dance
- Return / Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Surf
The premise of this set is that standard HP Ground Kingler has Xatu struggles because it gets 2HKOed by Psychic and Hidden Power Electric, is slower, and neither +2 Return nor +2 Double-Edge can OHKO back. HP Rock at +2 OHKOes Xatu (and also Fearow) while retaining the extremely strong hit on fires. Surf makes sure the rocks aren't a decent answer now that Kingler no longer has HP Ground. The main downside is losing the large hit on Weezing, with Return being very unfavored to 2HKO when Weezing is at full and Double-Edge only doing a little over 60% at max, with the recoil also pushing Kingler into range of Weezing's Thunder. Surf also means you don't have Substitute to abuse full paralysis or predict booms. Still quite a good set and good at luring Xatu. Also very self sufficient generally.

Mixed Flareon
:gs/flareon:
Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Double-Edge
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
RestTalk Flareon is essentially just a bruiser version of Rapidash, being much slower and a little physically frailer but far far stronger, having a whopping 130 attack stat and 95 special attack. Double-Edge is even practically guaranteed to 3HKO HP Electric Octillery without Spikes and very favored to 3HKO Ice Beam Octillery without Spikes. Flareon has very middling speed though as well as low physical bulk and quite a few weaknesses, as well as competition with Ninetales, Rapidash, and other breakers like Magmar and Stantler. Very good set though, abuses the hell out of Ninetales and Xatu.
Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Water]
- Baton Pass / Protect
A different take on mixed Flare, having much worse longevity in exchange for coverage to directly hit rock types hard rather than having to wear them down over time in addition to having a slot for utility in the form of dry pass or protect. Unfortunately this set is a bit overshadowed by RestTalk because it's less self-sufficient and gets less entry points but I think people should use it more.

Sunny Day Magmar
:gs/magmar:
Magmar @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch / Hidden Power [Grass]
- Cross Chop
- Sunny Day
High key Sunny Day is much better than HP Ground or Thief. Rapidash, Flareon, and other Magmar aren't common enough and Ninetales still bullies HP Ground Magmar because it's faster, is so bulky it still dodges a 3HKO, and just poisons Magmar. Thief meanwhile is only a one time use and means Magmar doesn't have Leftovers when it first gets on the field, and you have to click Thief instead of a better attacking move. Sunny Day however can be used multiple times, retains Leftovers, weakens water moves and Thunder accuracy, and makes Magmar's Fire Blast ultra powerful, and it was already the most powerful unboosted special attack in the tier. Sunny Day especially tips the Dewgong matchup into Magmar's favor, similar to the way it does for Ninetales. I think it's really quite good and makes Magmar extremely dangerous, especially into more balanced teams without Ninetales.

Hidden Power Rock Hitmonlee
:gs/hitmonlee:
Hitmonlee (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
HP Rock makes Hitmonlee a bit more self-sufficient against Xatu and Pineco, 3HKOing both. Weezing and Gloom are even more of an issue than with Body Slam or Double-Edge but with proper team support you can wear them down. Lee still has the bulk and power to take on Oct, Gong, Chinchou, etc. The second move to hit fires and Gong for serious damage can be nice at times too. No Body Slam hurts a bit in situations other than against the poisons too though, i.e. Primeape, Kingler, Dugtrio, etc. Still a solid set though.

Curse Porygon
:gs/porygon:
Porygon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
Nothing particularly special about this set, just bog standard Curse Porygon. BoltBeam Porygon struggles heavily with doing damage to bulky RestTalkers that aren't weak to Thunder or Ice Beam, and Curse fixes that. Still has basically the same issues as BoltBeam Porygon but much more snowballing potential. I think both variants are good but Curse is probably a bit more consistent since it has less bad matchups and a higher ceiling. Definitely used less than it should be.

Some sets I want to see used

Curse Amnesia Persian
:gs/persian:
Persian @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Iron Tail
- Amnesia
Kind of like a different version of Furret. A bit frailer and weaker, but much faster. Iron Tail seems weird but it's a lot more accurate than Hypnosis and can 2HKO all 3 rocks after a Curse boost, and Persian is so fast that even at -1 it still outspeeds the rocks. Furret's Surf tends to be better at breaking the rocks though because it's 100% accurate, you don't need to boost for it to do serious damage, and it threatens to OHKO Graveler. I think this Persian could be cool though and maybe see success. Weezing is still a pain though.

RestTalk-less Wigglytuff
:gs/wigglytuff:
Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Fire Blast
- Protect
Similar idea to the SD Eq Protect Lickitung. Start off the game with generally good bulk and use Curse, then spam your attacking moves. Fire Blast does 84-99% to Pineco, so you hit it hard as it Spikes up and then Double-Edge if you haven't used Curse yet or click Protect if you have as it explodes. Essentially this Wigglytuff's purpose is to just click buttons until it dies. Protect blocks booms ofc but also gives some extra Leftovers healing.

3 Attacks Dragonair
:gs/dragonair:
Dragonair @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder Wave
- Fire Blast
- Surf
- Thunder
This set isn't really new, if anything it's actually quite old, but it hasn't seen use in a long time. 3 attacks Dnair is like BoltBeam Porygon but with more coverage and actual resistances but no Recover. Can't really touch neutral targets obv but Blast + Surf + Thunder really only leaves Primeape, Hitmonlee, and pure Normals as the Pokemon that can take hits well and Twave helps reduce the list of good answers even further. Bit slow, not the bulkiest, and moves are inaccurate, but I think this Dnair could put in work.

Thief Primeape
:gs/primeape:
Primeape
Ability: No Ability
- Cross Chop
- Thunder
- Thief
- Substitute / Double-Edge
Regular RestTalk-less Primeape but with Thief instead of Substitute or Double-Edge to cripple Weezing or Gloom. Loses out on a moveslot and doesn't have Leftovers when first switching in but if you manage to keep Primeape alive then it's gonna be a lot harder to switch into the next time you bring it in.
Primeape @ Mint Berry
Ability: No Ability
- Cross Chop
- Thunder
- Thief
- Rest
Doubling down on Thief, now with Mint Berry and Rest for a one time full heal before using Thief afterwards. RestTalk is a bit more consistent especially since you're probably going to have to use Rest earlier than you think but it's a neat idea.

Hidden Power Ground Gloom
:gs/gloom:
Gloom @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk
- Curse
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Moonlight
Stun Spore-less Gloom can work decently well, though only on very specific teams. Best on Graveler balance teams where Gloom has proper support and your team needs help against Magnemite and you don't have any particular teammate that really wants paralysis. However ofc Stun Spore tends to be a better choice, but I still think this set is good in its own way. "Use Stun Spore + HP Ground and drop Curse" no because then Gloom is weak af.

Reflect Ninetales
:gs/ninetales:
Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Reflect
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Unique defensive option that gets overshadowed by Toxic and Sunny Day, and unfortunately for a good reason. Toxic hits a lot, mainly the rocks, and Sunny Day boosts Ninetales's sometimes lackluster power and somewhat neuters the waters, however Reflect can do cool things too. The main use is for against normal types like Stantler and Fearow, Dugtrio, and somewhat blocking explosions from the likes of Weezing. It also has a lot of pp. The use case is extremely minor but it's a good move.

Curse Weezing
:gs/weezing:
Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunder
- Explosion
- Curse
Standard Weezing but with Curse for boosting Sludge Bomb and Explosion instead of a coverage option or different utility move. Kinda like Haze but it's not instant and boosts Sludge Bomb too. Has pretty decent potential imo.

RestTalk Magmar
:gs/magmar:
Magmar @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch / Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Just a funny idea. Fire Blast is strong as hell and Tpunch/HP Grass are good choices for coverage. The idea is that Magmar struggles with longevity and status making it much worse at checking stuff like Xatu and Gloom and Cross Chop is mostly a bonus for normals/rocks while the last move tends to be interchangeable/filler, so why not use RestTalk? Set obviously has quite a few issues and the extra coverage + ability to use Sunny Day of AoA Magmar is probably more consistent, but who knows? RestTalk Magmar is probably good enough in its own right exclusive of other Magmar to give a spin.

3 Attacks Chinchou
:gs/chinchou:
Chinchou @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
Essentially, Chinchou kind of gets no switches besides Octillery/Dewgong and Ninetales, and usually you'd rather switch something else into Ninetales, and Chinchou has plenty enough bulk (resists Water) to kind of get away with not using RestTalk, so you maximize your movepool with Ice Beam to hit Gloom (and maybe freeze) and broken Thunder Wave for paralysis. RestTalk is far more consistent but this set is pretty cool.

Maybe there's something here...

Seadra
:gs/seadra:
Seadra @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Protect / Rain Dance / Agility
Mini Magmar of sorts, but water type. 95 special attack is tied with Xatu for third highest in the tier and actually having access to Hydro Pump unlike Octillery. 95 defense and 85 speed helps quite a lot too. Pretty shitty special defense though, poor longevity, Pump accuracy is questionable, a lot of competition, etc etc. Could be a hidden gem in the right situation though.

Flaaffy
:gs/flaaffy:
Flaaffy @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk / 26 Def
- Thunder
- Fire Punch
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Thunder Wave
I stole the idea for this set from the 3 attacks + Twave Ampharos set for UUBL. Probably doesn't work that great in practice for Flaaffy because unlike Ampharos it's relatively paper (and still extremely slow and no longer has a Jolteon to come into battle on) but it might be alright idk.

Venomoth
:gs/venomoth:
Venomoth @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Stun Spore / Sleep Powder
- Curse
- Sludge Bomb
- Baton Pass
MrSoup first tried this out against me in an extremely funny sequence where he just wanted to pull it off once with a lead Moth and I used a lead Stantler and I crit first turn 4 times and Stun Spore missed another 5 or 6 times. As for what Moth does, the idea is to pass a Curse boost mainly to Stantler, but it likely also works well with something like Wigglytuff. There's a lot of flaws with Moth but Baton Pass can be busted at times so maybe it can pull something off successfully.

Machoke
:gs/machoke:
Machoke @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Cross Chop
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
Pair with Houndour + Graveler + other fighting type (Primeape) and then this mon has a reason to be used. No Rock Slide because Houndour is there for Xatu and you want Body Slam for Gloom. Earthquake is cool on paper for making it by far the best fighting type at not completely folding to Weezing but the other fighters are so much better in every other way that it's not really worth it.

Voltorb
:gs/voltorb:
Voltorb @ Miracle Berry
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Explosion
Funny hyper offense lead with double screens and, while extremely weak, explosion! Dnair is largely better but boom and base 100 speed is funny enough to where maybe it can do something. Good matchup against lead Xatu and Octillery too.
 
Last edited:

MrSoup

my gf broke up with me again
is a Tiering Contributor
RBTT Champion
Underrated Threats in GSC NU

Sneasel
:gs/sneasel:
Sneasel @ Leftovers / No Item
Ability: No Ability
- Return
- Screech
- Toxic / Thief
- Moonlight
Sneasel is a hard counter to Xatu and a great answer to RestTalk Dewgong with its Ice/Dark typing, solid special defense, and Moonlight for healing, using them to spread damage with Screech, Toxic or Thief, and Spikes support from Pineco. The main difference with this set is the lack of Dynamic Punch, which imo is definitely an improvement because poisoning the rocks and such is much better than trying to hit them with an highly inaccurate move. Sneasel should be paired with Pineco (for obvious reasons) and Graveler (since it struggles with Pineco), which can be a little constricting. Toxic is a move you can click much more freely and wears down Graveler and the other rocks quite fast, but Thief can be used to cripple Weezing. I think Toxic is generally better since if the opponent has a rock AND Weezing you can only choose to cripple one of them, made even worse if the opponent switches their Pineco into your Thief instead of something else, however it still has merit because Toxic does nothing to Weezing. Main problems with Sneasel are the difficulty of putting it on a team, compounded by competition with Houndour, Weezing existing, and it having quite a lot of common weaknesses, potentially being ran out of Moonlight in certain situations due to low pp, and hating status. However, it's a pretty nice enabler for more Xatu-weak physical-based Spikes + Graveler offenses, though admittedly this is quite a small window of parameters. Solid B-tier Pokemon.

Pidgeot
:gs/pidgeot:
Pidgeot @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Reflect / Return
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Pidge appears hard outclassed by Fearow, and for the most part, it is. However, it has some notable advantages. The main ones are access to Reflect and better bulk (more so on the special side). Higher special defense allows Pidgeot to be favored to survive a 3HKO from Xatu Hidden Power Ice/Electric, though Double-Edge recoil pushes it over the line. This is more just a demonstration of Pidgeot's solid bulk. Return can be used as a second strong STAB move since Pidge lacks Drill Peck and is more so for when Pidgeot is on an offensive team whether over Fearow or alongside Fearow. However, I want to mostly focus on Reflect. Reflect allows Pidgeot to be the best non-Shuckle answer to RestTalk Stantler who otherwise walks all over more balanced/defensive teams. Pidge is faster, has enough bulk to have a decent chance to survive a 3HKO from Frustration, is completely immune to both Spikes and Earthquake, 3HKOes Stantler back with STAB Double-Edge, has Rest and Sleep Talk to keep it consistently healthy, and most importantly has Reflect to prevent Stantler from really doing meaningful damage and forcing it out. Normal also being the amazing typing it is has minimal resists, and rock types like Graveler can get worn down. Main issues with Pidgeot are of course competition with other normal types, mainly Fearow, having a lot of weaknesses like Ice, Electric, and Rock, and while it's pretty bulky it still doesn't have quite enough for threats like Octillery, Fearow, STAB Fire Blast users, etc.

Raticate
:gs/raticate:
Raticate @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Super Fang
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Rat is another decently strong pure normal type with STAB Double-Edge and a couple other cool tools. Super Fang and outrunning Xatu and Primeape are the most notable reasons to use Rat. Super Fang does good damage to everything, importantly chunking Weezing and the rocks a lot harder than Double-Edge. With Super Fang, Rat doesn't necessarily need much else so RestTalk is nice to keep it alive against Dewgong and Xatu and such. Super Fang accuracy is kind of a bitch lol it's so annoying when it misses. Rat also doesn't have enough power to KO things with one Double-Edge after using Super Fang so sometimes opposing RestTalkers can just roll rest after Rat uses Super fang and Double-edge and then be right back at 100% health and ready to hit Raticate hard again. Rat also has heavy competition with Fearow being both slower and weaker so ideally you should use Rat alongside Fearow. Rat really likes having Pineco and Graveler support too. Probably around B tier or so.
Raticate @ Leftovers / No Item
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Super Fang
- Hidden Power [Water] / Hidden Power [Ground] / Thief
- Screech / Thief
This Rat chooses to drop RestTalk for maximum utility/disruption. Hidden power water puts a serious charge into Graveler and Pupitar, being able to do more than super fang when the rocks are full and finishing them off after a super fang. HP Ground can be used instead to smack Magnemite, though Magnemite isn't very common. Thief steals the Leftovers from Weezing, Dewgong, a rock, or some other Pokemon. Screech when combined with Spikes, Rat's speed, and STAB Double-Edge can spread some serious damage onto the opponent's team. This Rat should be used alongside Fearow. Imo this is a mostly better version of lead disruptor Pidgeot (Dedge/HP Grass/Toxic/Thief) since it's faster, has Super Fang, is slightly stronger, and can use Screech. RestTalk will be more consistent because it has actual longevity but I still think this set is good in its own way.

Lickitung
:gs/lickitung:
Lickitung @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Earthquake
- Protect
In the lead, this Lickitung is surprisingly dangerous. It's quite bulky and gets a pretty easy SD against common leads like Xatu and with Protect is hard to take down. Does a lot of damage early game and 2HKOes Pineco after an SD. Consistently can take down 1-2 pokemon against the right team. Not all perfect though. It has basically no defensive utility, has awful matchups against lead Weezing, Pineco, and Persian, and is smacked by fighting moves and explosion. Also really slow. I think it's B or at least B- worthy though.

Furret
:gs/furret:
Furret @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Surf
- Amnesia / Protect
Mini Stantler. Surf is the only reason to use this thing. 38.5% chance to OHKO Graveler from full and becomes guaranteed if you hit it with Double-Edge on the switch or have Spikes up (that Graveler somehow hasn't spun away yet) or it's poisoned. Also 3HKOes Sudowoodo with Spikes up and does 60+ to Pupitar. Curse + Amnesia mimics Stantler's Curse + Light Screen, and Furret's Double-Edge is actually ever so slightly stronger than Stantler's Frustration, albeit with recoil. Furret should really be used alongside Stantler ideally. Not having Earthquake is a major pain and makes it severely worse vs Weezing (and also Magnemite), Stantler doesn't have to take recoil to use its STAB move, and Stantler has slightly more special bulk. Decent pokemon, maybe like C or at best B- tier.

Seaking
:gs/seaking:
Seaking @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk
- Swords Dance
- Double-Edge / Return
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Agility
Kingler 2. Much specially bulkier and access to Agility. Kingler is individually much better but if you really want the special bulk or you can afford to use both of them on the same team, Seaking can put in work.

Noctowl
:gs/noctowl:
Noctowl @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Return
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Extremely bulky, with 100 base HP and 96 base special defense. Doesn't even take 30% from Xatu Hidden Power and Octillery Surf only does a couple percent more. As per usual, still plenty of flaws. Weak to Ice, Electric, and Rock, severely vulnerable to crits, will likely lose to other Curse users, hates Explosion, physically frail before setup, helpless against normal resists, etc. Still a decent choice.

Sets people should use more

Sunny Day Ninetales
:gs/ninetales:
Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Sunny Day
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Sunny Day Tales is really good. Ninetales tends to struggle with power and Octillery, and Sunny Day fixes (somewhat) both of those. Turns a lot of 3HKOes into 2HKOes and 4HKOes into 3HKOes. Under sun, Dewgong only does about 25 to Ninetales with Surf and takes 36-43 back from Flamethrower, Chinchou is completely neutered because Surf gets weakened to nothing and Thunder becomes 50% accurate, and Oct gets weakened enough to where things like RestTalk Stantler can actually become decent switch-ins. You lose out on Toxic so things like the rocks and Kingler and Porygon and such become a bit harder for Ninetales to deal with but I think the benefits of Sunny Day are really nice. Toxic still has its place though.

Hidden Power Rock Kingler
:gs/kingler:
Kingler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Swords Dance
- Return / Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Surf
The premise of this set is that standard HP Ground Kingler has Xatu struggles because it gets 2HKOed by Psychic and Hidden Power Electric, is slower, and neither +2 Return nor +2 Double-Edge can OHKO back. HP Rock at +2 OHKOes Xatu (and also Fearow) while retaining the extremely strong hit on fires. Surf makes sure the rocks aren't a decent answer now that Kingler no longer has HP Ground. The main downside is losing the large hit on Weezing, with Return being very unfavored to 2HKO when Weezing is at full and Double-Edge only doing a little over 60% at max, with the recoil also pushing Kingler into range of Weezing's Thunder. Surf also means you don't have Substitute to abuse full paralysis or predict booms. Still quite a good set and good at luring Xatu. Also very self sufficient generally.

Mixed Flareon
:gs/flareon:
Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Double-Edge
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
RestTalk Flareon is essentially just a bruiser version of Rapidash, being much slower and a little physically frailer but far far stronger, having a whopping 130 attack stat and 95 special attack. Double-Edge is even practically guaranteed to 3HKO HP Electric Octillery without Spikes and very favored to 3HKO Ice Beam Octillery without Spikes. Flareon has very middling speed though as well as low physical bulk and quite a few weaknesses, as well as competition with Ninetales, Rapidash, and other breakers like Magmar and Stantler. Very good set though, abuses the hell out of Ninetales and Xatu.
Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Hidden Power [Water]
- Baton Pass / Protect
A different take on mixed Flare, having much worse longevity in exchange for coverage to directly hit rock types hard rather than having to wear them down over time in addition to having a slot for utility in the form of dry pass or protect. Unfortunately this set is a bit overshadowed by RestTalk because it's less self-sufficient and gets less entry points but I think people should use it more.

Sunny Day Magmar
:gs/magmar:
Magmar @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch / Hidden Power [Grass]
- Cross Chop
- Sunny Day
High key Sunny Day is much better than HP Ground or Thief. Rapidash, Flareon, and other Magmar aren't common enough and Ninetales still bullies HP Ground Magmar because it's faster, is so bulky it still dodges a 3HKO, and just poisons Magmar. Thief meanwhile is only a one time use and means Magmar doesn't have Leftovers when it first gets on the field, and you have to click Thief instead of a better attacking move. Sunny Day however can be used multiple times, retains Leftovers, weakenes water moves and Thunder accuracy, and makes Magmar's Fire Blast ultra powerful, and it was already the most powerful unboosted special attack in the tier. Sunny Day especially tips the Dewgong matchup into Magmar's favor, similar to the way it does for Ninetales. I think it's really quite good and makes Magmar extremely dangerous, especially into more balanced teams without Ninetales.

Hidden Power Rock Hitmonlee
:gs/hitmonlee:
Hitmonlee (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- High Jump Kick
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
HP Rock makes Hitmonlee a bit more self-sufficient against Xatu and Pineco, 3HKOing both. Weezing and Gloom are even more of an issue than with Body Slam or Double-Edge but with proper team support you can wear them down. Lee still has the bulk and power to take on Oct, Gong, Chinchou, etc. The second move to hit fires and Gong for serious damage can be nice at times too. No Body Slam hurts a bit in situations other than against the poisons too though, i.e. Primeape, Kingler, Dugtrio, etc. Still a solid set though.

Curse Porygon
:gs/porygon:
Porygon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
Nothing particularly special about this set, just bog standard Curse Porygon. BoltBeam Porygon struggles heavily with doing damage to bulky RestTalkers that aren't weak to Thunder or Ice Beam, and Curse fixes that. Still has basically the same issues as BoltBeam Porygon but much more snowballing potential. I think both variants are good but Curse is probably a bit more consistent since it has less bad matchups and a higher ceiling. Definitely used less than it should be.

Some sets I want to see used

Curse Amnesia Persian
:gs/persian:
Persian @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Iron Tail
- Amnesia
Kind of like a different version of Furret. A bit frailer and weaker, but much faster. Iron Tail seems weird but it's a lot more accurate than Hypnosis and can 2HKO all 3 rocks after a Curse boost, and Persian is so fast that even at -1 it still outspeeds the rocks. Furret's Surf tends to be better at breaking the rocks though because it's 100% accurate, you don't need to boost for it to do serious damage, and it threatens to OHKO Graveler. I think this Persian could be cool though and maybe see success. Weezing is still a pain though.

RestTalk-less Wigglytuff
:gs/wigglytuff:
Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Fire Blast
- Protect
Similar idea to the SD Eq Protect Lickitung. Start of the game with generally good bulk and use Curse, then spam your attacking moves. Fire Blast does 84-99% to Pineco, so you hit it hard as it Spikes up and then Double-Edge if you haven't used Curse yet or click Protect if you have as it explodes. Essentially this Wigglytuff's purpose is to just click buttons until it dies. Protect blocks booms ofc but also gives some extra Leftovers healing.

3 Attacks Dragonair
:gs/dragonair:
Dragonair @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder Wave
- Fire Blast
- Surf
- Thunder
This set isn't really new, if anything it's actually quite old, but it hasn't seen use in a long time. 3 attacks Dnair is like BoltBeam Porygon but with more coverage and actual resistances but no Recover. Can't really touch neutral targets obv but Blast + Surf + Thunder really only leaves Primeape, Hitmonlee, and pure Normals as the Pokemon that can take hits well and Twave helps reduce the list of good answers even further. Bit slow, not the bulkiest, and moves are inaccurate, but I think this Dnair could put in work.

Thief Primeape
:gs/primeape:
Primeape
Ability: No Ability
- Cross Chop
- Thunder
- Thief
- Substitute / Double-Edge
Regular RestTalk-less Primeape but with Thief instead of Substitute or Double-Edge to cripple Weezing or Gloom. Loses out on a moveslot and doesn't have Leftovers when first switching in but if you manage to keep Primeape alive then it's gonna be a lot harder to switch into the next time you bring it in.
Primeape @ Mint Berry
Ability: No Ability
- Cross Chop
- Thunder
- Thief
- Rest
Doubling down on Thief, now with Mint Berry and Rest for a one time full heal before using Thief afterwards. RestTalk is a bit more consistent especially since you're probably going to have to use Rest earlier than you think but it's a neat idea.

Hidden Power Ground Gloom
:gs/gloom:
Gloom @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 24 Atk
- Curse
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Moonlight
Stun Spore-less Gloom can work decently well, though only on very specific teams. Best on Graveler balance teams where Gloom has proper support and your team needs help against Magnemite and you don't have any particular teammate that really wants paralysis. However ofc Stun Spore tends to be a better choice, but I still think this set is good in its own way. "Use Stun Spore + HP Ground and drop Curse" no because then Gloom is weak af.

Reflect Ninetales
:gs/ninetales:
Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Reflect
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Unique defensive option that gets overshadowed by Toxic and Sunny Day, and unfortunately for a good reason. Toxic hits a lot, mainly the rocks, and Sunny Day boosts Ninetales's sometimes lackluster power and somewhat neuters the waters, however Reflect can do cool things too. The main use is for against normal types like Stantler and Fearow as well as blocking explosions from the likes of Weezing. It also has a lot of pp. The use case is extremely minor but it's a good move.

Curse Weezing
:gs/weezing:
Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunder
- Explosion
- Curse
Standard Weezing but with Curse for boosting Sludge Bomb and Explosion instead of a coverage option or different utility move. Kinda like Haze but it's not instant and boosts Sludge Bomb too. Has pretty decent potential imo.

RestTalk Magmar
:gs/magmar:
Magmar @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Thunder Punch / Hidden Power [Grass]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Just a funny idea. Fire Blast is strong as hell and Tpunch/HP Grass are good choices for coverage. The idea is that Magmar struggles with longevity and status making it much worse at checking stuff like Xatu and Gloom and Cross Chop is mostly a bonus for normals/rocks while the last move tends to be interchangeable/filler, so why not use RestTalk? Set obviously has quite a few issues and the extra coverage + ability to use Sunny Day of AoA Magmar is probably more consistent, but who knows? RestTalk Magmar is probably good enough in its own right exclusive of other Magmar to give a spin.

3 Attacks Chinchou
:gs/chinchou:
Chinchou @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave
Essentially, Chinchou kind of gets no switches besides Octillery/Dewgong and Ninetales, and usually you'd rather switch something else into Ninetales, and Chinchou has plenty enough bulk (resists Water) to kind of get away with not using RestTalk, so you maximize your movepool with Ice Beam to hit Gloom (and maybe freeze) and broken Thunder Wave for paralysis. RestTalk is far more consistent but this set is pretty cool.

Maybe there's something here...

Seadra
:gs/seadra:
Seadra @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Protect / Rain Dance / Agility
Mini Magmar of sorts, but water type. 95 special attack is tied with Xatu for third highest in the tier and actually having access to Hydro Pump unlike Octillery. 95 defense and 85 speed helps quite a lot too. Pretty shitty special defense though, poor longevity, Pump accuracy is questionable, a lot of competition, etc etc. Could be a hidden gem in the right situation though.

Flaaffy
:gs/flaaffy:
Flaaffy @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk / 26 Def
- Thunder
- Fire Punch
- Hidden Power [Water]
- Thunder Wave
I stole the idea for this set from the 3 attacks + Twave Ampharos set for UUBL. Probably doesn't work that great in practice for Flaaffy because unlike Ampharos it's relatively paper (and still extremely slow and no longer has a Jolteon to come into battle on) but it might be alright idk.

Venomoth
:gs/venomoth:
Venomoth @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Stun Spore / Sleep Powder
- Curse
- Sludge Bomb
- Baton Pass
MrSoup first tried this out against me in an extremely funny sequence where he just wanted to pull it off once with a lead Moth and I used a lead Stantler and I crit first turn 4 times and Stun Spore missed another 5 or 6 times. As for what Moth does, the idea is to pass a Curse boost mainly to Stantler, but it likely also works well with something like Wigglytuff. There's a lot of flaws with Moth but Baton Pass can be busted at times so maybe it can pull something off successfully.

Machoke
:gs/machoke:
Machoke @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Cross Chop
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
Pair with Houndour + Graveler + other fighting type (Primeape) and then this mon has a reason to be used. No Rock Slide because Houndour is there for Xatu and you want Body Slam for Gloom. Earthquake is cool on paper for making it by far the best fighting type at not completely folding to Weezing but the other fighters are so much better in every other way that it's not really worth it.

Voltorb
:gs/voltorb:
Voltorb @ Miracle Berry
Ability: No Ability
- Thunder
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Explosion
Funny hyper offense lead with double screens and, while extremely weak, explosion! Dnair is largely better but boom and base 100 speed is funny enough to where maybe it can do something. Good matchup against lead Xatu and Octillery too.
I like how every mon here comes with the caveat of "well... it struggles into weezing"

In all seriousness though, great post. Although, I'd be scared if FNH sees it (tagging him so he does). According to him, he's invented half of the stuff in this post

1691808391499.png

1691808473817.png
Also, HP Fire gloom is a great lure for pine while also hitting magnemite just like ground does.
 
Sneasel
:gs/sneasel:
Sneasel @ Leftovers / No Item
Ability: No Ability
- Return
- Screech
- Toxic / Thief
- Moonlight
Sneasel is a hard counter to Xatu and a great answer to RestTalk Dewgong with its Ice/Dark typing, solid special defense, and Moonlight for healing, using them to spread damage with Screech, Toxic or Thief, and Spikes support from Pineco. The main difference with this set is the lack of Dynamic Punch, which imo is definitely an improvement because poisoning the rocks and such is much better than trying to hit them with an highly inaccurate move. Sneasel should be paired with Pineco (for obvious reasons) and Graveler (since it struggles with Pineco), which can be a little constricting. Toxic is a move you can click much more freely and wears down Graveler and the other rocks quite fast, but Thief can be used to cripple Weezing. I think Toxic is generally better since if the opponent has a rock AND Weezing you can only choose to cripple one of them, made even worse if the opponent switches their Pineco into your Thief instead of something else, however it still has merit because Toxic does nothing to Weezing. Main problems with Sneasel are the difficulty of putting it on a team, compounded by competition with Houndour, Weezing existing, and it having quite a lot of common weaknesses, potentially being ran out of Moonlight in certain situations due to low pp, and hating status. However, it's a pretty nice enabler for more Xatu-weak physical-based Spikes + Graveler offenses, though admittedly this is quite a small window of parameters. Solid B-tier Pokemon.
As the person who first thought about Sneasel in 2023 and decided to build with it, great post. This explains Sneasel effectively. Sneasel is decent in GSC NU and shouldn't be underestimated. I would like to add that HP Ground is a good fit over Toxic if you want to make Sneasel more offensive. It helps out against Fires, Rocks, and Weezing.

Here is my favourite team with Sneasel.
gsc-nu-hitmonlee.pnggsc-nu-sneasel.pnggsc-nu-weezing-sprite.pnggsc-nu-octillery-sprite.pnggsc-nu-graveler.pnggsc-nu-pineco-sprite.png

This team makes use of Sneasel's talents and supports it back. Hitmonlee hates Xatu, but Sneasel counters it. Sneasel hates Primeape, but Weezing answers it. Sneasel can give entry to Pineco, so you have Graveler to spin away Spikes. Team struggles into certain threats (I.E, HP Water Weezing), but I would still consider this a tournament worthy team. It is especially good if your opponent uses a lot of Xatu.
 
As the person who first thought about Sneasel in 2023 and decided to build with it, great post. This explains Sneasel effectively. Sneasel is decent in GSC NU and shouldn't be underestimated. I would like to add that HP Ground is a good fit over Toxic if you want to make Sneasel more offensive. It helps out against Fires, Rocks, and Weezing.

Here is my favourite team with Sneasel.
View attachment 558128View attachment 558129View attachment 558130View attachment 558131View attachment 558132View attachment 558133

This team makes use of Sneasel's talents and supports it back. Hitmonlee hates Xatu, but Sneasel counters it. Sneasel hates Primeape, but Weezing answers it. Sneasel can give entry to Pineco, so you have Graveler to spin away Spikes. Team struggles into certain threats (I.E, HP Water Weezing), but I would still consider this a tournament worthy team. It is especially good if your opponent uses a lot of Xatu.
I feel like with this team, the mu vs hp water Weezing is kind of just... impossible lol.

I'd say dewgong over oct would make it more bearable
 

BeeOrSomething

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GSCPL IV Team Dump

This GSCPL was pretty fun. I built (mostly) new teams each week with the help of some friends like MrSoup and dawnbuster, and I performed very well, going 7-0 in NU in the regular season and only losing in semifinals to some Counter Ape shenanigans and a misplay or two. Additionally, of course, I just really, really love playing this tier.

(Note: All these pastes will have the funny names I used. Remove them yourself)
Week 1 - vs MrSoup
:gs/weezing: :gs/porygon: :gs/fearow: :gs/octillery: :gs/graveler: :gs/magmar:

https://pokepast.es/5ac1fbe00f531666
I started this team off with a pretty simple idea, Curse Porygon + Weezing, and then added onto it. I went with Fearow as my bird for its great synergy with Porygon when it comes to Dewgong and Graveler. I then added on Octillery as my obligatory bulky water, and then Graveler for a solid normal resist and good synergy with Porygon when it comes to Pineco. I didn't really know what to choose for my last Pokemon between three different options - Sunny Day Ninetales, Sunny Day Magmar, and Pineco. Ultimately I went with Magmar as it was the most powerful of the three and, unlike Pineco, had real speed and defensive utility beyond switching into a physical attacker once. I am aware this team is incredibly weak to Chinchou, however when building it I forgot Chinch existed lol. This team is probably one of the weaker ones I built for that reason, but it's pretty good when the opponent isn't using Chinch. If you don't want to be so Chinch weak, I would probably recommend replacing Magmar with RestTalk Stantler or Porygon with Wigglytuff or RestTalk Stantler.

Week 2 - vs Fluore
:gs/lickitung: :gs/octillery: :gs/weezing: :gs/flareon: :gs/dunsparce: :gs/fearow:

https://pokepast.es/004cca1318d20c9d
At the start of the week, I just spewed off a bunch of ideas in my channel in my team server and picked one I liked and found interesting enough, and I chose lead SD Lickitung, a very effective surprise set that Dawn came up with during our hundreds of friendly games earlier in the year. From there, I knew I just wanted a strong defensive core, and that using Pineco would likely impede that so I needed to have mostly self-reliant powerful offensive threats, so I threw on Octillery was my bulky water, Weezing because it's amazing and because fighters are a huge threat to this team, Flareon for its high power and ability to effectively answer Ninetales, Magmar, and Xatu, Dunsparce as a win condition and my primary Dewgong/Chinchou check, and then Fearow as my bird of choice for its good Dunsparce synergy and because Xatu is a lot weaker without Spikes while Fearow is relatively okay without them. I quite like this team personally, it's very unique and Lickitung and Dunsparce are pretty dangerous. Also Dunsparce is just as good as Wigglytuff really the only meaningful difference is that Wigglytuff additionally has Body Slam and Double-Edge (and also seems to attract negative hax twice as often as the average pokemon). Use Dunsparce more guys it's good!

Week 3 - vs Medeia
:gs/xatu: :gs/weezing: :gs/octillery: :gs/pineco: :gs/wigglytuff: :gs/stantler:

https://pokepast.es/05b9d5a5297a44ef
I came up with a novel idea for lead Stantler with Hidden Power Fire and Light Screen and added these other 5 pokemon on because they are good, Wigglytuff being especially notable for its great synergy with HP Fire Stantler sniping Pineco and spreading damage with Light Screen and strong moves (as well as just wanting to try out Wigglytuff). However, while testing with MrSoup, he just flat out told me that keeping Stantler in the back and using Curse instead of HP Fire would just be like straight up better, and I realized he was right, so I did. Probably the most "normal" team I used this tournament, but not a bad thing, this team is pretty good for a reason.

Week 4 - vs Monai
:gs/persian: :gs/xatu: :gs/weezing: :gs/octillery: :gs/pineco: :gs/pupitar:

https://pokepast.es/945a08105bc2b0ef
After like 2 weeks of wanting to use Persian and just not, I committed myself to using Persian this week. However, I also wanted to use Pupitar because it's a good Pokemon and it resists Normal, and traditional lead Persian + Pupitar left me either without Weezing (ass) or without a solid Dewgong/Chinch answer (ass), so I just threw RestTalk on Persian as cope which makes this team barely hang on. Not the best team but it's a fun one and a pretty good application of RestTalk Persian imo. You could also use RestTalk Stantler but I really wanted to use Persian and also Persian is much faster (not needed but it's nice to have).

Week 5 - vs Innovamania
:gs/octillery: :gs/fearow: :gs/weezing: :gs/pineco: :gs/primeape: :gs/porygon:

https://pokepast.es/375f610c919f0fd0
I didn't really know what to use this week so I just started with some good Pokemon and then threw on Primeape because I didn't want to lose to normals. Last is Porygon because it helps with Duggy, Xatu, kind of Octillery, kind of Fearow, helps force paralysis/damage on opposing Pineco and Weezing to help out Primeape and Fearow, and because it's just really good. Very fun and offensively potent team but it's fairly weak to Fearow.

Week 6 - vs Real FV13
:gs/persian: :gs/fearow: :gs/weezing: :gs/octillery: :gs/pineco: :gs/stantler:

https://pokepast.es/1cd9d0a39ca90be7
I wanted to use a double normal team but the Graveler version felt a bit Xatu weak for my tastes and I felt I could outplay opposing Pineco and normals well enough, and lead Persian is broken + it matched up well into FV's scout + good synergy with other normals. RestTalk Stantler is busted. Imo rolling with Weezing, RestTalk Deer, and Elec Oct is a better way to do triple normal than Esta's Beam Oct + Chinch + Curse LS Deer simply bc you are Weezing (very good Pokemon). Good team.

Week 7 - vs Estarossa
:gs/stantler: :gs/weezing: :gs/dewgong: :gs/pineco: :gs/primeape: :gs/dugtrio:

https://pokepast.es//d46679c4f038c1f3
Felt like changing it up a bit and using Dewgong this week. Dewgong + Weezing + RestTalk Deer + Pineco is a great core that enlightened me this week (that I also plan on making a post on sometime soon) so I threw that on as my basis. For the last two slots, I was going between a lot of different combinations of options that included Octillery, Porygon, Graveler, Fearow, and of course, Primeape and Dugtrio, and I eventually decided on choosing Primeape + Dugtrio rather than Octillery + Dugtrio or Octillery + Primeape. Yes this is bird-less, I don’t think you necessarily need a bird with Dewgong. Solid structure and fun team but I didn't play the game the best, though I still won. Octillery is a bit hard with this structure but you can use OctGong if you desire and Dewgong + high offensive pressure is still a fairly decent way to deal with it.

Semifinals - vs Real FV13 (round 2)
:gs/stantler: :gs/weezing: :gs/octillery: :gs/pineco: :gs/magmar: :gs/fearow:

https://pokepast.es/a847f1f1d88748cc
Wanted to use Octillery and Stantler again because I felt they were the best option into FV's scout. Obligatory Weezing. Pineco fits along very naturally for helping with normals and because this is a highly aggressive team. Chose Fearow for concerns of Dugtrio, Primeape, Stantler, and general high speed. The last slot was a flex option that I ultimately chose Magmar for as it has phenomenal synergy with Weezing and Fearow. I also considered bringing the team Sanke Carp used in semifinals (which I built and had as my main alternative option when discussing what to use with MrSoup) but I chose this instead because it felt more immediately comfortable considering what I had been using this tour. I probably should've done way more in this game against FV but my Weezing died on turn 3 to Counter Primeape and I made a misplay or two and just didn't exploit possible entry points for Magmar the best.

I would also dump the team I used for GSC UU in Semis Tiebreak but this is the GSC NU thread, I don’t really want to make a short post just for one team, and the game didn’t matter, so sorry! Hope you enjoyed reading the rest of this though :blobuwu:

This tier is awesome I love it. Also I balled out which helps I think lol. See you all in NUCL and ALTPL in a month! :blobnom:
 
Lots of purple, but not a lot of psychic bird. New king of the tier?
Yes.

782040FC-EF52-4FF6-8EC5-F12AB5222D9A.png

This is an opinion I have had for a while now, Weezing is the best Pokemon in GSC NU these days by a fairly big margin. Xatu is still good, but I don’t think its even top 5 anymore. Xatu is mediocre against several common Pokemon and doesn’t help check most of the really dangerous Pokemon.

Weezing, on the other hand, is an absolute monster. Weezing is both offensively and defensively dominant. Offensively, it has high base power moves with secondary effects (Sludge Bomb poision, Thunder paralysis) and good Attacking stats. There are only a few Pokemon that can switch into Weezing (I.E, Ninetales, Sudowoodo/Graveler, Dugtrio). These are still far from perfect answers though. Graveler is OHKOd by Hidden Power Water while Dugtrio and Sudowoodo despise Poision. Ninetales is a good check, but like any other Pokemon that doesn’t resist Normal, Weezing can OHKO it if it desires. Weezing’s Explosion is excellent at forcing trades and removing problematic threats. Its very difficult to stop Weezing from going kaboom because of its high physical bulk. Defensively, Weezing is very bulky on the physical side and resists Fighting. This makes it the premier check to Primeape, a Pokemon who is otherwise very threatening. Its also able to take hits from Pokemon like Fearow and Hitmonlee.

Weezing is so good because it is so versatile, both in how it performs and in movesets. When you put Weezing on your team, you get a threatening mixed attacker, an Explosion user, and a physical tank. Weezing is a surprisingly unpredictable Pokemon. When its sent out, you never know if its running Fire Blast or Hidden Power Water in the last slot. You have to try and scout that, or your Graveler is getting OHKOd by HP Water. You don’t even have to run these moves though. Haze is an underrated option for stopping setup users, while Curse boosts the power of your Sludge Bomb and Explosion. You might even run into Thief or Rest Weezing once in a while.

I believe that nearly every team is improved by using Weezing. Weezing is almost a necessity on offensive teams, a large amount of the teams in this tier, because of the risk you take against Primeape, Fearow, and Curse Normals without it, and because you lose that amazing boom. You can’t always fit it on Spikeless teams with Gloom, but it’s feasible and worth it to do so because the Pokemon you get out of it is the best in the tier.

Weezing is the sole S rank in GSC NU. Stantler is a monster as well, but even he can’t match the beauty that is GSC NU Weezing.
 

BeeOrSomething

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The Untapped Potential of the Dewgong + Weezing + RestTalk Stantler Spikes Archetype as an alternative to standard Octillery Spikes
(Alternatively, you can use RestTalk Primeape over Stantler, but I wanted to focus on Stantler in this post because it's simpler and usually better)

:gs/stantler: :gs/dewgong: :gs/weezing: :gs/pineco:

Recently during GSCPL while building teams with the help of dawnbuster during week 7, I came to a realization that this core of Dewgong, Weezing, Stantler, and Pineco is an incredibly potent structure with strong metagame coverage and a ton of flexibility. I figured I'd share my thoughts on the archetype and some details about it.

What Each Pokemon Does

RestTalk Dewgong
:gs/dewgong:
Dewgong @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Dewgong is the star of the show here. RestTalk Dewgong is a great Pokemon, being quite difficult to take down and a very sturdy check to Xatu while also helping a lot with other threats like Dugtrio, Fearow, Weezing, Graveler, and Flareon. Dewgong's Speed is really great, it outspeeds a lot of stuff like, importantly, Weezing. Surf + Ice Beam is a pretty potent STAB combo really only held back my Dewgong's middling Special Attack, though the super effective coverage and Ice Beam being able to freeze Octillery helps a lot. Dewgong is just generally a very difficult to take down and moderately strong threat, and it's a great Pokemon.

Weezing
:gs/weezing:
Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sludge Bomb
- Thunder
- Explosion
- Fire Blast / Hidden Power Water
Weezing is a phenomenal Pokemon and in my opinion, the best in the tier. It's amazing offensively with such great coverage and solid stats, Explosion is a great tool for a safety button to shut down a dangerous threat or making aggressive plays, and importantly for Dewgong, is the best answer to Primeape and Hitmonlee. The last slot is pretty flexible, Fire Blast hits Magnemite, Gloom, and Pineco while Hidden Power water hits Graveler, Pupitar, and Sudowoodo, and you can even use moves like Haze or Protect. Weezing works amazingly with Dewgong and is just something I think you should be trying to use on as many teams as possible. Dewgong also helps cover Xatu and Dugtrio really well for Weezing.

RestTalk Stantler
:gs/stantler:
Stantler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Stantler is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier with its high Attack, solid Speed, and perfect coverage with its STAB + Earthquake. RestTalk helps keep Stantler alive to keep outputting offense and importantly makes it a solid check to Dewgong, Chinchou, and even Weezing if needed as well as letting it take more risks with staying in an extra turn to fire off an attack. Stantler has next to no reliable counterplay beyond Pidgeot and Shuckle, with Pidgeot being hard to fit on teams due to competition with Fearow and Shuckle extremely passive and only working on stall, which is incredibly uncommon. The extent of beating Stantler is Pineco, Xatu, Fearow, forcefully removing it with an Explosion user, and attempting to out-offense it, all of which are unreliable or can be fairly easily outplayed by the Stantler player. Stantler is just a monster and provides an amazing blend of unstoppable offense and valuable defense.

Pineco
:gs/pineco:
Pineco @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Spikes
- Explosion
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic / Hidden Power Water / Giga Drain
Pineco's Spikes bring a ton of value, massively accelerating offense and evening the field against an opposing Spikes team. Pineco is also a fairly decent one time stop to things like Primeape, Stantler, and Wigglytuff that can use them to set Spikes and maybe even use Explosion, especially if you double in Pineco instead of switching it straight into an attack. Pineco can even Rapid Spin away Spikes if given the chance to do so or if in a situation where using Rapid Spin is a better play than using Spikes. The last slot goes to something that can help it beat the rocks, namely Graveler, and maybe something else, overall fairly interchangeable. You can definitely go without Spikes with these first three Pokemon, but I will be focusing on the version of this structure that does use Pineco as it is what I have experimented the most with and Spikes make outputting offense much easier, especially with Dewgong's lower power level.

Options for the final two slots

Primeape
:gs/primeape:
Primeape @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Cross Chop
- Thunder
- Double-Edge
- Substitute

Primeape @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Cross Chop
- Thunder
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Primeape provides powerful Fighting-type offense to help with Normals like Stantler and Wigglytuff, solid speed control, assistance against Sudowoodo, additional defensive utility when it comes to handling Waters like Dewgong, and just general high power with its great Attack stat, high base power moves, and Spikes support. Both Substitute sets and RestTalk sets work fine on this structure since you already have RestTalk Stantler to help with flexibility, sets with Sub are much better into Pineco, can abuse paralysis better, and have Double-Edge for accuracy and hitting Gloom, while RestTalk is better at switching into stuff like Dewgong, Chinchou, and Stantler and lets it sometimes stay in on Weezing an extra turn to gather more chip and maybe paralysis with Thunder.

Dugtrio
:gs/dugtrio:
Dugtrio @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Screech
- Substitute
Dugtrio helps with switching into Weezing, is extremely fast, helps to weaken Octillery, is an actual switch-in to Thunder from Magnemite and Chinchou, can threaten out Fires, and is a strong abuser of Spikes with Substitute and Screech. Screech can also be emergency defensive utility if there's a Curse Normal staring you down and you're willing to trade most or all of Duggy's HP to not like lose. Screech accuracy is a bitch sometimes and it can be hard to get entry for Duggy but if you can without taking too much chip and can make smart plays, it will be very worth it.

Fearow
:gs/fearow:
Fearow @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Drill Peck
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Fearow most importantly is a Flying-type, easing counterplay against Dugtrio and Stantler. Fearow is also just really powerful and quite fast, and it helps more against Primeape to keep Weezing from being worn down too fast (though be careful of switching into Thunder). Fearow is also a pretty good Spikes abuser. However, it is notable that using Fearow worsens the Chinchou, Magnemite, and Rock-type matchups even further, so I would say Dugtrio is likely the best option to go along with Fearow for the final two slots.

Octillery
:gs/octillery:
Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 14 HP / 28 Atk
- Surf
- Hidden Power Electric
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Octillery + Dewgong seems quite strange, but OctGong is pretty good if you can fit it. Dewgong is much better at handling Xatu, Fearow, Dugtrio, Flareon, and Rapidash while Octillery is much stronger and is far superior into other Octillery, Ninetales, Magmar, Sudowoodo, Graveler, and Wigglytuff, and while both of these Pokemon are relatively ok at handling all of these individually, using both helps make a team really secure against these threats. Using both Octillery and Dewgong does make it harder against things like mainly Chinchou and Magnemite but also to a lesser extent Stantler, Persian, Porygon, Weezing, and Primeape, but overall I would say it's definitely worth considering.

Graveler
:gs/graveler:
Graveler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 22 HP / 26 Atk / 24 Def
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
Graveler's main jobs are to get in the way of Pineco to help out Stantler, clear Spikes with Rapid Spin, be a switch-in to Fire Blast Weezing, switch into Magnemite if needed, help with Fire-types, resist Normal to make checking Fearow and, if willing to boom, Wigglytuff and Porygon easier, and provide an emergency button or powerful breaking tool with Explosion. Graveler can also be fairly scarely offensively with the help of Spikes and its huge STAB Earthquake, though the awful Speed really hurts. The Speed is really atrocious though, and Graveler has quite a few exploitable weaknesses including some that overlap with Dewgong's weaknesses (Chinchou, Primeape, Stantler, Hidden Power Grass Magmar to name a few), and unless using Primeape as an additional last alongside Graveler, having anti-Pineco for just Stantler may not be worth it when compared to the benefits other Pokemon provide. Still a strong option.

Curse Porygon
:gs/porygon:
Porygon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse
- Double-Edge
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
Porygon helps with switching into opposing Dewgong, Xatu, and Octillery and Stantler (if at high health). It's also just an amazing overall win condition and Thunder Wave and Recover are amazing moves. Porygon can also help overload Pineco and Weezing and forces Sudowoodo and Graveler to trade with it. Not much to say really, Curse Porygon is just a fantastic Pokemon that synergizes well with Stantler.

Lead Persian
:gs/persian:
Persian
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Hypnosis
- Thief
- Screech
Since this core of 4 Pokemon is so great at covering most of the metagame, you can put mostly whatever offensive Pokemon in these last 2 slots, so why not Persian? Lead Persian helps accelerate offense a lot and can force a Thief and/or Hypnosis on things like Weezing, Pineco, Octillery, Dewgong, Stantler, Sudowoodo, Graveler, etc. Lead Persian is generally just such a hugely destructive force and works well with Stantler, Pineco, and Weezing while helping Dewgong make up for the power loss compared to Octillery while not really taking away from from the defensive integrity of the team.

RestTalk Flareon
:gs/flareon:
Flareon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Double-Edge
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Flareon is probably the hardest to fit out of all of these because of complications with Octillery, Stantler, Sudowoodo, and Dugtrio defensively but it helps out a ton with lessening the greater weakness to Fires that using Dewgong over Octillery brings, as well as being an alright Magnemite answer. Flareon is really strong and Pineco's Spikes and Stantler's additional breaking power and defensive utility are great support for it and help to mitigate some of Flareon's issues and force more pressure on Octillery, though it's still hard to ignore that using Flareon does make the team worse into Octillery regardless of how much it takes from Double-Edge. Good choice if you can fit it, but it's pretty hard to relatively IMO.

Xatu
:gs/xatu:
Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Psychic
- Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Ice
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Xatu is the least specific of everything here, but it's a fairly good Spikes abuser that's fast, puts pressure on Octillery, and helps with Stantler, Weezing, Primeape, and Dugtrio, but worsens issues with Fires, Porygon, Wigglytuff, Sudowoodo, Magnemite, Chinchou, and kind of Octillery. Not too much to say really. Would personally choose HP Electric instead of HP Ice.

Chinchou
:gs/chinchou:
Chinchou @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf
- Thunder
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Chinchou is kinda hard to fit because I have an allergy to knowing how to use it it's not great into Stantler, Primeape, and Wigglytuff, and it doesn't help too much with Fires considering all of them use Double-Edge or Sunny Day, but it's good with Spikes and makes the Octillery issue go away, and if you manage to land Thunders, Chinch can still sting Stantler and Primeape fairly hard and maybe even score a paralysis.

What's the difference between using Dewgong and using Octillery?

Advantages
- Much better into Xatu and Fearow
- Somewhat better into Dugtrio
- Better into Rapidash and Flareon
- Better into Pupitar and Graveler (weak to Rock but Pupitar and Graveler usually don't like clicking Rock moves if they can avoid it + Dewgong is much faster and has 2 super effective stabs + Stantler/Primeape/Dugtrio abuse them clicking a Rock move + RestTalk)
- Better into Weezing
- Better into Grasses

Disadvantages
- Much worse into opposing Octillery (Dewgong isn't necessarily bad into it because you can freeze it and Dewgong dodges a 3HKO from HP Electric, but generally it's much preferable to just immediately hit it hard, especially since Dewgong can sometimes give Octillery an easy full heal even if heavily chipped)
- Much worse into Sudowoodo
- Much worse into Magmar and Sunny Day Ninetales
- Much worse into Primeape
- Overall worse into Stantler (roughly stalemate bar crits/freezes, Octillery hits much harder but is easily 3HKOed while Dewgong and Stantler both miss out on 3HKOs majority of the time, Dewgong can help with pivoting in Primeape/Fearow/Xatu/Pineco more safely but often you'd rather just hit it harder and not give as easy entry)
- Worse into Wigglytuff/Dunsparce


Overall, I would say Octillery is more often than not a better Pokemon than Dewgong, but Dewgong's merits on more standard Spikes offenses are still very worth considering and I encourage people to try it out more, it's a very flexible and fun to build/use structure. Thank you for reading.
 

MrSoup

my gf broke up with me again
is a Tiering Contributor
RBTT Champion
:gs/shuckle: GSC NU Stall :gs/bayleef:

GSC NU is a tier largely dominated by offense and occasional balance. That's for good reason, these play styles are very strong and match up well into most of the metagame. The extremes of tier, on the other hand, see little attention. "HO" -- or whatever that means in GSC-terms -- is not very common. These structures of boomspam, BP chains, growthpass, etc are seen as fishy. While I do think these strategies are much, much, better than many give credit, to a large extent it's true, as they typically have very unfavorable yet uncommon matchups that may make them not worth bringing. The other extreme is stall, which is a playstyle that is practically untouched. Not only do people not like playing stall, it also has had very little testing, experimentation, and theory-monning over the history of GSC NU, especially in recent days. However, as recent meta trends have brought "safe" Rest-reliant offense/balance structures to the forefront, stall, in my opinion, has become incredibly strong as it matches up nearly unbeatably into the most common structures today.

What does stall look like in GSC NU?

GSC NU stall has 4 critical components, but is actually incredibly, incredibly flexible. These four components are:
  1. Shuckle
  2. Rapid Spin
  3. Water + Electric Check
  4. Water + Ice Check
While these all have several pokemon and build strategies to go from (except Shuckle, he's mandatory), I'll use this thread as an opportunity to show the build process behind what is the best stall in my opinion, as well as give other options to fulfill each roll along the way. There are countless options here as many mons synergize very differently with each other!

:gs/shuckle: Shuckle :gs/shuckle:

Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Rest
- Toxic
- Defense Curl
- Wrap/Encore/Flash/Rollout

Shuckle is the bread and butter of this team and is the reason it functions. In the current state of GSC NU, Shuckle hard-counters about 90% of the most common Pokemon, including but not limited to: Stantler, Weezing, Fearow, Xatu, Porygon, Rapidash, and Gloom, while checking many more important Pokemon like Flareon, Magmar, Primeape, Ninetales, and Hitmonlee. Wow that's a lot of role compression! And what Shuckle lacks, his 5 other team members try to make up for. His goal is to spread Toxic, waste important pp on the opponent like Fire Blast and Thunder, and generally do nothing, which is okay in GSC NU. If there's no Spikes on the field and the opponent is not threatening special attack boosts (1 niche set on Flareon) or SD + move Shuckle is weak to (there are a few, so don't do nothing versus them), there's really nothing wrong with doing nothing because Defense Curl has 61 pp and will outlast boosting mons using Curse, Meditate, etc. That's also why I prefer Wrap the most as a fourth move, as it has a lot of pp and forces the opponent to use pp instead of switching. The other options can work if planned accordingly, but they either lack in pp or consistency. Now, this is a big "if" in order to facilitate Shuckle's passiveness, so assembling a team that can help is crucial, particularly when it comes to Spikes.

Shuckle can do a lot, so naturally it has a lot of pressure on it -- pressure that can make it crumble with stuff like crits or paralysis. Not only do Shuckle's teammates attempt to counter the things shuckle can not outlast, but they also attempt to relieve this pressure by not having to use it as a check for everything, as you only have 16 rests. Before we delve into the next team slot let's remind ourselves of our three remaining necessities (Rapid Spin, Water + Electric Check, Water + Ice Check) while ALSO considering the many ifs and buts that will arise once you've reached the end of your building: below are several key issues that stall has that, when picking your other 5 pokemon, you want to check as many boxes as possible. It's near impossible to be perfect into each, but strengthening your team into what you most expect to play against is critical. They're listed in general importance to the structure within three tiers (top most bottom least):

Having a win conditionDugtrio answer(s)Growth counterplayToxicing/removing Pineco (or Delibird)Kingler counterplayPrimeape backup
Magnemite answer(s)Help with strong fire moves (from Magmar, Ninetales, and Flareon)Xatu backupThief/Hypnosis counterplaySudowoodo counterplayHaving enough Rests to outlast Toxics
HP Water Weezing backupHave a lot of pp on something threateningDon't get spinblockedPupitar backupResistance to weird/niche cheese (Poliwhirl, perish trap, 3 attacks waters)

Hopefully it's apparent why Shuckle struggles with many of these. Some of the upcoming partners to Shuckle may even compound these. That's why they're important to keep in mind when building out the rest of the squad. It may seem like a lot, but a lot of it fits together in the end, and no one has ever consistently won with a singular pokemon.

:gs/hitmontop: Rapid Spin :gs/hitmontop:

Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Rapid Spin
- High Jump Kick/Toxic/Hidden Power Rock

The preferred Rapid Spin user on stall isn't even considered NU. Hitmontop, the PU legend, has many qualities that make it the best stall partner over the other options. Top is a great blanket special defensive check to many of stall's bigger problems, such as Chinchou, Dewgong, and Magnemite. While Hitmontop will never be a sole check to these Shuckle threats, having another option to relieve pressure from the team is a huge plus. Hitmontop also sports a higher defense stat than Hitmonchan at the expense of speed and attack, which is generally more useful for situations where you might have to stay in on a Stantler or Dugtrio, etc. However, NU has no perfect spinner, and Hitmontop can actually lose the spikes game in the long run. This is because Pineco commonly runs toxic, which can force Rests while Spikes are up, allowing the pinecone an opportunity to explode with a bad rest talk role. Because of this, it's critical for another member to Toxic Pineco or give Hitmontop the ability to do this itself/use HP rock (HP rock also prevents being spinblocked from the rare Gastly). Otherwise, you may struggle to keep Spikes off, which is absolutely critical to most NU stalls, as they seldom can afford spikes of their own.

:gs/hitmonchan:
Hitmonchan (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Rapid Spin
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- High Jump Kick/Toxic/Hidden Power Rock

:gs/tentacool:
Tentacool @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Surf/Hydro Pump

There are two other valid options for spinning on stall. The first is Hitmonchan, which does nearly the same thing as Hitmontop with worse defenses, except it outspeeds Delibird by one point, the only other spiker in the tier. Although uncommon, if you expect to fight the Christmas bird, Hitmonchan will provide you much better utility. Tentacool, on the other hand, serves a wildly different purpose. It still spins, but aside from that its main advantage is that it ALWAYS beats Pineco, similar to Tentacruel in OU (disregarding the presence of Gastly). It also has several other advantages, acting as a decent Dewgong check (although eventually you will get frozen) and strong special attacker. It massively lacks in the aforementioned rare Delibird MU however, almost certainly leading to a loss after being Thiefed. It also doesn't contribute as much outside of the spike war. While the hitmons may be able to help with Thunder switches and normal types, Tentacool worsens these matchups, requiring extra assistance in other areas of the team.

Finally, there are two rapid spinners that are fringe. Graveler can work with even a Rest set but stacks so many similar strengths and weaknesses with Shuckle that it's very redundant. Staryu can also potentially work with recover, but can easily be statused by Pineco. It can, however, work similarly to how Starmie does in OU vs Cloyster when poisioned. On the whole, though, I feel Tentacool serves this role better.

:gs/bayleef:Water + Electric Check :gs/bayleef:

Bayleef @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Synthesis
- Toxic/Razor Leaf/Hidden Power Fire/Hidden Power Rock
- Return
- Swords Dance

Bayleef @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Light Screen/Reflect/Growl
- Body Slam/Toxic /Growl
- Synthesis
- Razor Leaf

Yet another non-NU pokemon, Bayleef shines on stall. It's main purpose is countering HP Electric Octillery, while also helping vs Chinchou along with your spinner (although it doesn't enjoy paralysis). NU massively lacks good grass types, which is why stall sort of settles for Bayleef. The reason it's prefered, however, is its strong Spdef stat compared to other grasses, along with its access to SD. As it will mainly be stomaching special attacks with only 8 Synthesis pp, it's important to avoid pokemon like Tangela and Exeggcute, which may have better stats but cannot face Octillery with ease. SD is an extremely important aspect of Bayleef despite its average attacking stat. This is because it allows it to threaten the opponent, forcing pp usage of critical moves, and potentially win in the end game. Much of the time, it will SD but then be forced to switch from something like a Weezing pivot. However, it also may be able to start dishing out strong Returns if at +2 in front of an Oct or Dug, causing slow but steady progress with its massive pp. It's last slot is flexible, but something to pressure Pineco is great, or else its a free switch. Toxic is preferred as this option, as it also prevents rock types from walling Bayleef. Bayleef also helps stall a lot in the Dugtrio matchup, making it very doable for the stall player, as the grass dinosaur nicely checks it along with your water type.

Bayleef has another defensive set available, with stuff like Growl and grass STAB. This set does not attempt to be a threat, but instead prevent set-up and continue to counter Octillery. It may run passive and give the opponent too many opportunities, but it certainly is the right choice on many stalls that already have a win condition. Just be careful of GSC screens and defensive rollover with Shuckle!

:gs/gloom:
Gloom @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sleep Powder/HP Fire/HP Rock/Razor Leaf
- Swords Dance
- Sludge Bomb/Return
- Moonlight

:gs/sunflora:
Sunflora @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 24 Def
- Synthesis
- Growth
- Razor Leaf
- Hidden Power [Fire]/Toxic

Gloom is almost identical to Bayleef's offensive set, but provides a stronger stab attack and the option to status. This can poison or sleep Pineco, ensuring a strong matchup against spikes. It can also run Return for more pp or the same options as Bayleef for rocks/Pineco. The biggest differentiator is its poison typing, which can help versus non-Meditate Primeape, but is largely a hinderance in being an ineffective
Dugtrio check and no longer being useful in the Xatu MU. Gloom certainly has a strong role on stalls with better Dugtrio and Xatu match ups, however, as its statusing abilities shine through while also being immune to Pineco Toxic! Sunflora is the same concept in theory, but slower, as its boosting move only gives a +1. It's also frailer defensively, making Dugtrio scarier. However, it has a massive Special attack stat, allowing it to be more threatening immediately once the opponent has a poisoned Xatu/Fearow. This is an unexplored but certainly viable option.

There are a few more fringe choices. Parasect is similar to Bayleef but weak to Dugtrio's Rock Slide. It does have 100% accurate Spore and a greater attack stat, however. It also has the option for STAB on HP Bug. Dragonair is much more of an NU-mainstay while also countering Octillery. It is more immediately threatening too with moves like Thunder and Fire Blast. Its main issue, however, is that it lacks pp and is not a win condition. It's largely a do-nothing Pokemon in my opinion on stall.

:gs/dewgong: Water + Ice Check :gs/dewgong:

Your core is nearly complete. Your Shuckle, spinner, and waterelec check are likely walling 80% of the meta with ease. The most common hole that's on most teams that you're missing is now a switch in to Dewgong and Ice Oct. While your spinner is likely helping here (a hitmon or tent), they're not reliable enough to always win this interaction, ESPCIALLY BECAUSE OF FREEZE CHANCE. This slot is required bc it's essentially a freeze sack/immune. Moreover, it's likely to help you in general for like, not losing against other common threats.

Dewgong @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf
- Ice Beam/Encore/Toxic/HP Electric
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Dewgong is the easiest go-to for this slot. It's immune to freeze, can stall opposing Dewgong, and generally just helps against special attackers like Xatu. There's not much else to say. It's a really good Pokemon and helps build your fat. It even gives you backup into things like Fearow, Dugtrio, or Weezing. Where it's slightly faulty is it not being punishing against Pineco without Toxic, and not running 2 attacks really weakens your effectiveness against basically everything else. It can also be an easy opportunity for stuff like Kingler to get the set up on you without Encore. Encore is a nice option to prevent set up, but its awkward in conjunction with Rest and severely limits your pp. Overall though, it's the most solid pick for this slot.

:gs/azumarill:
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf
- Light Screen
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

:gs/octillery:
Octillery @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
Hidden Power: Electric
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

:gs/mantine:
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Haze
- Surf
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

:gs/tentacool:
Tentacool @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Surf/Hydro Pump

This fourth slot is where your creativity can start to run wild. You're essentially just looking for a sturdy water type, so you have many options depending on what the rest of your squad is like. Azumarill is seldom thought of these days but does fit on stall. It's even more passive than gong though against things like Pine and Kingler, but it can compress some roles with Light Screen. Again, just be careful with this and Shuckle's stat rollover! Octillery is a more offensive option and is totally valid. It will actually win the Dewgong MU eventually rather than pp stall, and threatens Kingler and Pineco substantially. It's certainly a good choice. Mantine is passive but makes up for its passivity with Haze, at least not becoming free for Kingler. It's biggest advantage, however, is that IT'S NEARLY THE ONLY THING YOU CAN TECH TO ALWAYS BEAT GROWTH PASS. There's options like Roar tales and Haze Weezing, but these are weaker than a Haze Mantine, which completely stops Flareon in its track (they do not run HP Electric). The downside to this is that you are 4x weak to electric and not resistant to ice. With Mantine's massive spdef, this isn't an issue as much as it might seem vs Gong or Oct, but it still can wear you down against a good opponent. The electric weakness is the piece that holds me back more from recommending Mantine, however. This slot serves usually as a help vs Xatu, which is semi-threatening to stall with crits and drops, often requiring a pp stall by switching between Shuckle and several other allies. As Xatu often runs HP elec, this mon will become useless against the psychic bird, so you must shore up this weakness elsewhere if you wish to run Mantine. My last recommendation is Tentacool again with the same set as before. Having two spinners can never hurt, but it can get warn down by gong and oct without Rest and is also a victim to being bad into Xatu. As such, this requires strong support.

:gs/weezing: Your Other Two Goons :gs/ninetales:

For your last two spots, the world is your GSC NU oyster so long as you don’t stack weaknesses and are aware of what you are likely to face. Using the four that I’ve built within this thread, it’s useful to look at the table of stall issues I gave at the beginning and assess what needs addressing.

Currently, the following are the biggest issues I spot:
  • Growth Counterplay
  • Removing Pineco
  • Magnemite Answers
  • Fireblast Answers
  • Primeape Backup
  • Kingler Counterplay
Stall benefits a lot from poison type, usually Weezing, primarily as a check to Primeape but also another physical wall to ease pressure from Shuckle. Weezing in particular benefits from incredible variability in movesets and many options to stop Kingler, who’s access to SD and Surf/HP Rock threatens the existence of stall entirely.

:gs/weezing:
Weezing @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Sludge Bomb
- Curse/Haze
- Rest/Pain Split
- Sleep Talk/Explosion/Thunder/Protect

Rest Talk Weezing is extremely uncommon in NU, given its mixed diversity for offensive options, but it fits perfectly on stall. In conjunction with STAB Sludge Bomb with the chance to poison Pineco and a move to prevent getting set up on, Weezing often gets the ability to sit on threats like Gloom, Kingler, and Primeape, who often try to whittle away at Weezing with repeated hits and status. The option between Curse and Haze is an interesting one. Mono Curse gives your stall a win condition if not already present while still stopping the likes of Meditate Primeape and Curse Gloom. Haze, on the other hand, gives stronger respite vs Kingler and potentially a last ditch hope against Growth Pass, although not reliable in the slightest. Other options using Pain Split as recovery, but this is far less defensive and risks longetivity.

:gs/ninetales:
Ninetales @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Flamethrower
- Toxic/Reflect/Roar
- Sleep Talk/Roar
- Rest

Ninetales fits nicely as the last Pokemon here, but in all truth nothing as the last will give you that perfect MU into everything. Ninetales helps with the holes Magnemite and fire types can deal to the current team, as well as offering another pokemon who doesn’t give free spikes to Pineco. Ninetales also shores up another Xatu switch, allowing Dewgong to more freely handle water types. Finally, Ninetales offers several remedies to big issues depending on its set. Reflect can help with Kingler and Primeape while Toxic can whittle away at them. Roar is a fantastic stop to Growth Pass, as Flareon is quite useless into it unless sleeping. This option has bad synergy with Sleep Talk, though, so some sacrafises most likely will need to be made here depending on your needs.

:ninetales::shuckle::hitmontop::bayleef::dewgong::weezing:

This is the final created team. While it doesn’t cover every possible base, it offers the most outs to possible situations in my opinion. Out of the issues that should be watched for, Growth Pass and Gastly (spin blocking) are its biggest roadblocks, but these can be changed with risk reward by adjusting movesets (Roar Tales for example). However, there are many, many more Pokemon who haven’t been listed that can fill ranks in the last four slots depending on how your team has shaken out. I’ll try to briefly yet succinctly describe their niche.

:gs/lickitung:
Lickitung @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Earthquake
- Rest

Lickitung offers a slow wincondition that can make use of the many doubles and passive play you’re likely to face when using a stall team. Abusing things like Gloom, Dragonair, and Chinchou are quite easy for it, especially with status and good rolls against sleeping Pokemon. It's also one of the rare decent leads on stall. Use this if you lack a wincon and could use some bulk.

:gs/wigglytuff:
Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Curse/Charm
- Body Slam
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Wigglytuff is similar to Lickitung insofar as it’s a normal wincon, but its much more defensively sound, acting as a decent check to stuff like Chinchou, Magnemite, and Dewgong that your team may need. Moreover, it can run an Umbreon-like set from OU with charm, albeit not nearly as good in its MUs, and spread status for allies. It's also a decent lead.

:gs/pineco:
Pineco @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin/Hidden Power Grass/Rest
- Explosion/Protect/Reflect/Hidden Power Grass
- Toxic

Stall can fit spikes! Spikes are an amazing asset in GSC, and can act as your sole wincon on stall. While Pineco does gain access to Rapid Spin, it absolutely cannot act as your main spinner, as it cannot consistently beat other Pineco with any set whatsoever. It can be a backup spinner, however, and even act as a great way to trade Pineco by Toxicing the opponent or baiting an Explosion. It doesn’t check much else, but can break Dugtrio and Kingler subs, preventing potential set-up, making it a difficult but worthy add in a MU fish.

:gs/stantler:
Stantler @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Return
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Stantler can do what it does on many teams and act as your offensive threat on stall. It switches into stuff like Magnemite, Chinchou, Gloom, and Weezing, and starts asserting offensive pressure. It’s similar to Wigglytuff, but it won’t necessarily shore up your weaknesses to any big threats like other options will.

:gs/pidgeot:
Pidgeot @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Double-Edge
- Reflect
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This thing isn’t great on stall because it compounds many of your issues such as Rock weaknesses and Elect/Ice weaknesses, but its offensive pressure, countering of Stantler, and access to Reflect can help against physical threats like Dugtrio and Kingler.

:gs/gastly:
Gastly
Ability: No Ability
- Destiny Bond
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Thief/Haze

Gastly is interesting on stall. It allows you to spinblock opposing enemies and pp stalls mono-normal attackers with Haze. Thats about it though aside from trading with Dbond. Also mono-normal resistance isn’t too great when you have a Shuckle who does nearly the same thing.

:gs/porygon:
Porygon @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Double Edge
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
- Curse/Ice Beam

Porygon is just like Wigglytuff but can’t take status in exchange for having 32 recover pp. It’s much more threatening but also more passive and awkward to use.

:gs/corsola:
Corsola @ Leftovers
Ability: No Ability
- Surf/Toxic
- Rock Slide/Toxic/Sandstorm
- Recover
- Screech/Curse/Harden

This thing can probably fit on stall because it has broken recover, but it’s kind of really hard and I haven't quite figured it out; it would basically do the same thing as Shuckle while getting stalled out by Curse users unless you’re packing Harden. Sandstorm stall could be interesting though and in some cases it could maybe even replace Shuckle??!

:gs/houndour:
Houndour
Ability: No Ability
- Fire Blast
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Thief

If for some reason you believe your opponent is bringing Gastly. Otherwise it’s awful.

That should be nearly every Pokemon viable on stall aside from niche techs or uncharted territory. Now I’ll show how many options you have with stall considering this wide array of Pokemon, with the acknowledgment that you will be sacrificing your match up into some stuff depending on your build.

:weezing::shuckle::hitmontop::bayleef::dewgong::wigglytuff:
:wigglytuff::shuckle::hitmontop::bayleef::dewgong::lickitung:
:ninetales::shuckle::hitmontop::sunflora::mantine::wigglytuff:
:weezing::shuckle::hitmontop::bayleef::dewgong::stantler:
:ninetales::shuckle::tentacool::bayleef::octillery::weezing:
:ninetales::shuckle::tentacool::bayleef::stantler::weezing:
:pineco::shuckle::hitmontop::gloom::dewgong::ninetales:

Final Remarks

Stall is a largely unexplored playstyle, but it’s shown me dividends in tournament play. It’s incredibly flexible and can be adjusted based on your opponent. Its main strength is the lack of prep for it in the builder, as well as current meta trends that heavily favor it. Because full offense and BP are not popular right now, stall enjoys a fantastic MU against bulky balance/offense. It's my hope that this post encourages people to look into this playstyle a little more in the builder, and add some more depth to this amazing meta!
 
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BeeOrSomething

Daylight Savings Time sucks
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Plume tour is finished now so I'm dumping my teams I used

Note: VILE PILE 7 is missing because it was a MrSoup team

VILE PILE 1
:gs/ninetales: :gs/octillery: :gs/vileplume: :gs/graveler: :gs/porygon: :gs/stantler:
https://pokepast.es/44cd3826e241ce2b

VILE PILE 2
:gs/octillery: :gs/vileplume: :gs/hitmonlee: :gs/graveler: :gs/houndour: :gs/weezing:
https://pokepast.es/4505c88f4d18029b

VILE PILE 3
:gs/ninetales: :gs/graveler: :gs/vileplume: :gs/pidgeot: :gs/octillery: :gs/primeape:
https://pokepast.es/d42cae4965b2a607

VILE PILE 4
:gs/weezing: :gs/dewgong: :gs/flareon: :gs/pineco: :gs/primeape: :gs/vileplume:
https://pokepast.es/094520365a474001

VILE PILE 5
:gs/ninetales: :gs/dunsparce: :gs/fearow: :gs/octillery: :gs/vileplume: :gs/graveler:
https://pokepast.es/95a9c8150a2c262a

VILE PILE 6
:gs/wigglytuff: :gs/kingler: :gs/lickitung: :gs/vileplume: :gs/primeape: :gs/porygon:
https://pokepast.es/21ff5b20f97ac5f1

VILE PILE 8
:gs/persian: :gs/xatu: :gs/rapidash: :gs/pineco: :gs/vileplume: :gs/octillery:
https://pokepast.es/dede91282d604122

VILE PILE 9
:gs/flareon: :gs/dewgong: :gs/pineco: :gs/primeape: :gs/vileplume: :gs/xatu:
https://pokepast.es/58afcd90e9cf17ba

VILE PILE 10
:gs/flareon: :gs/octillery: :gs/primeape: :gs/vileplume: :gs/graveler: :gs/porygon:
https://pokepast.es/7fe9b0854dbcc493

VILE PILE 11
:gs/flareon: :gs/dewgong: :gs/primeape: :gs/vileplume: :gs/graveler: :gs/porygon:
https://pokepast.es/4f2c103e915e7162

VILE PILE 12
:gs/ninetales: :gs/hitmonlee: :gs/vileplume: :gs/graveler: :gs/pidgeot: :gs/kingler:
https://pokepast.es/f3f8867b42aebdfa


Final thoughts:
SD Plume is busted and extremely warping let's not free it

s/o MrSoup
 

BeeOrSomething

Daylight Savings Time sucks
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Both ALTPL and NUCL are over now, so I'm gonna dump the teams I used for them.

NUCL W1 - vs dawnbuster (L)
Lickitung + Kingler Gong Spikes

https://pokepast.es/b31abf71c5034c66
:gs/lickitung: :gs/dewgong: :gs/weezing: :gs/primeape: :gs/pineco: :gs/kingler:
First week of the tour vs dawn, I knew this was likely going to be my hardest opponent. I looked at what dawn was using recently in practice games and just generally what he seemed to be talking about a lot at that time, and I decided I wanted to really focus on bullying an opposing Dewgong Spikes, which meant using (or even stacking) physical setup sweepers. I started with Kingler, and from there, the team flowed pretty naturally. I opted for lead Lickitung instead of something else because I felt like it could cause huge damage and at the very least draw out Primeape or an Explosion early. There's a good argument for using something like Graveler instead of Pineco but I went with it anyways to help a lot with Stantler (which Graveler is not very good at answering), better hide Kingler since Dawn would likely think I had something like Fearow or Dugtrio last, and to help out Primeape and Weezing offensively. In battle, I was very close to winning, but one crucial misplay and dawn's Primeape never missing Thunder sealed the deal. One of my favorite teams I built during NUCL.

ALTPL2 W1 - vs MrSoup (W)
Lead Fearow + Meditate Ape Spikeless

https://pokepast.es/032fbb77881f52be
:gs/fearow: :gs/weezing: :gs/octillery: :gs/wigglytuff: :gs/graveler: :gs/primeape:
Once again, facing the hardest opponent of the tour in the first week. The number one thing I was concerned about going in was the stall matchup, so I was basically entirely focused on building around something along the likes of Swords Dance Kingler, Pupitar, or in this case, Meditate Primeape. I started with the idea of Meditate + Rest Primeape to try and completely destroy stall, but I replaced Rest with Substitute because I figured it would still be good enough and it's nice against non-stall teams. Eventually, I settled on taking a prior team I had made and replacing the sixth Pokemon with Primeape since the rest of the team basically had everything I wanted to support it. I also put Fearow in the lead since I wanted more control over my Octillery and it's much better into leads like Persian, Primeape, and Stantler. Team still isn't like super fantastic into stall since RestTalk Weezing with Curse or Haze can still beat Primeape, but with Graveler and Octillery it's got like enough of a chance. I also built another similar Meditate Primeape team with a more immediate offensive direction but ended up settling on this one because I felt like Wigglytuff would be a strong pick against Soup. Pretty fun team but realistically it's probably worth replacing Meditate Primeape with either a RestTalk Primeape or some other Pokemon.

NUCL W2 - vs Estarossa (W)
Hitmonchan Stall

https://pokepast.es/de22e60a4d633b4b
:gs/ninetales: :gs/dewgong: :gs/shuckle: :gs/bayleef: :gs/hitmonchan: :gs/weezing:
Every since NUCL started I'd been pretty set on loading stall when I eventually played Estarossa. Pretty much all of his teams he had used up to this point were destroyed by stall, and quite a lot of them (including the one he brought to our match) were poor into RestTalk Dewgong too. Hitmonchan over Hitmontop here because it's faster than Delibird and Estarossa had been preaching it. That's about it really.

ALTPL2 W2 - vs DiannieRatson (W)
Pupitar + Thief Xatu Spikes

https://pokepast.es/4c4cb76b6edaa4bb
:gs/octillery: :gs/xatu: :gs/weezing: :gs/pineco: :gs/stantler: :gs/pupitar:
By week 2 of ALTPL, I had already figured out Juoean had been building for the Snorlaxes considering both Diannie's very unusual week 1 team compared to what she normally brought to tournaments in the past and the fact that Sabelette was the manager of the Snorlaxes. I had also been playing some practice games with MrSoup and using some good old Xatu Spikes, and was having a lot of fun. Coincidentally, Juoean teams, especially her more recent ones with much less Dewgong, tend to be quite weak to Xatu with Spikes on the field. Naturally, I settled on using Xatu Spikes this week. I wanted to use Dugtrio, but I assumed Juoean would probably be giving Diannie a team with multiple normals, including at least one Curse normal, so I wanted to account for that by using Pupitar instead. Around this time, dawn had just started experimenting with Thief Xatu on aggressive Spikes teams to solid effect, and there wasn't really anything that made me feel like I wanted RestTalk since I didn't plan on switching Xatu into a Weezing or Primeape Thunder, so I threw it on the team to kick the shit out of Octillery and Wigglytuff. I also considered Ninetales + Pidgeot instead of Xatu + Pupitar but felt the potential of Xatu and Pupitar were too great to give up on. Lo and behold, Pupitar was incredibly important in the match and Xatu ended up claiming all six kills. There's also an argument for using Rapidash instead of Weezing but I wanted the better security into Ape since I had a Pupitar and I didn't want to put all of my reliance for answering Curse normals onto Pineco and Pupitar.

NUCL W3 - vs Real FV13 (W)
Flare Grav Pidge Spikeless

https://pokepast.es/7e05d4f2f54941cc
:gs/octillery: :gs/flareon: :gs/weezing: :gs/graveler: :gs/stantler: :gs/pidgeot:
Started pretty simple here, wanted to use Oct + Flareon to handle his extremely high fire (mostly Ninetales) usage and because Flareon is a generally strong Pokemon and helps with checking Weezing and Xatu. After that, I knew I wanted Graveler since Oct + Flareon Spikes is awkward more often than not and both really like having Spikes and/or Spin support. FV had also just been using Pineco a lot, especially on some stranger balance-ish teams. Stantler went on as the Gong/Chinch check because it just looked really strong into his scout, though you could definitely use Primeape here for being better against the Curse normals. Pidgeot last because I was desperately in need of help against Stantler and Dugtrio and I felt fine sacrifcing Fearow's better offensive profile for more defensive security.

ALTPL2 W3 - vs Oathkeeper (L)
Deer Ape Xatu Spikes

https://pokepast.es/c3bb9f1e10c572ea
:gs/stantler: :gs/xatu: :gs/weezing: :gs/octillery: :gs/pineco: :gs/primeape:
I was pretty much entirely focused on Oathkeeper's historical struggles with building a team sound into Xatu that wasn't a fat, passive team. I also didn't really have the creative juices flowing during this week, so I just wanted to use something simple. Stantler felt almost too good not to use against Oath, and I didn't feel a particular need for a ground type, so I just filled it out with Primeape. Extremely basic but good team.

NUCL W4 - vs plznostep (W)
Persian Fearow Wiggly Triple Normal Spikes

https://pokepast.es/38b22ade620b1e2d
:gs/persian: :gs/fearow: :gs/weezing: :gs/octillery: :gs/pineco: :gs/wigglytuff:
Going in, I knew plznostep was inexperienced in the tier, and from all my time playing and watching other people play, I knew stacking normals would be a great idea since most newer players don’t know the proper ways to deal with them in the builder and in battle. Persian was a pretty obligatory pick, then I threw on Pineco since Persian works best on Spikes teams from my experience and because I felt it would be a potent pick into a player with lesser knowledge of how to handle it. I also wanted to use a Curse normal, meaning Wigglytuff because I needed a switch-in for Chinch and Gong. Lastly, I debated using Xatu, but I just went with Fearow to help overload with the other two normals and to draw out a normal resist or Weezing early. Pineco should probably be Giga Drain here ftr. Pretty simple team.

ALTPL2 W4 - vs Banbadoro (W)
Lead Pine + Dash + Thief Xatu + Curse Stantler

https://pokepast.es/aab91c6b52c57579
:gs/pineco: :gs/rapidash: :gs/xatu: :gs/primeape: :gs/octillery: :gs/stantler:
I accidentally loaded my ALTPL W4 team for NUCL W5 so I loaded my NUCL W5 team for ALTPL W4 (doing this one first because I made it first). I don’t think too much thought went into it, I just wanted to load Rapidash + Thief Xatu because dawn was messing with it a lot in test games and it was super potent. I went with Primeape to be more secure against normals and to help switch into the waters, and I had Rapidash for shutting down Weezing. Pineco lead went on to prevent any Persian BS and because I didn’t really have another good lead besides Octillery, which I wanted to have more control over in terms of HP instead of chucking it out from the get-go. Pretty fun team.

NUCL W5 - vs BigFatMantis (W)
Lead Talk Weezing + Flare Crab Pidge

https://pokepast.es/7711f42518a9257e
:gs/weezing: :gs/primeape: :gs/dewgong: :gs/flareon: :gs/kingler: :gs/pidgeot:
I felt like using something fun and maybe a little wacky since Banbadoro was an inexperienced player. I was also getting incredibly fed up with Primeape both in tournament games and especially in practice games, so I had an interest in RestTalk Weezing. Conveniently, I was messing with Thief Primeape and Kingler, which eventually turned into RestTalk Primeape + Rock Kingler + Pidgeot (for Stantler and Dugtrio), which then turned into wanting Dewgong for Xatu and Fearow and Flareon for Xatu and Sunny Fires, meaning I had the perfect team for RestTalk Weezing to fit on (you can also use Graveler over Flareon if Pineco matchup is too much of a concern). I accidentally ended up bringing this team to NUCL instead of ALTPL, but I think it worked out okay since Rock Kingler throttled BFM's Farfetch'd and I won for ALTPL anyways. I'm overall quite happy with this team.

NUCL SEMIS - vs dawnbuster (W)
Lead Curse Stantler + Pory + RestTalk Weezing

https://pokepast.es/326c8e2578f3a8c2
:gs/stantler: :gs/dewgong: :gs/weezing: :gs/primeape: :gs/graveler: :gs/porygon:
I was kinda just building teams with ideas I figured could be good into dawn, and I settled on rolling with Porygon because it’s busted and dawn had always had mild trouble handling it. I wanted to use lead Curse LS Stantler too since I felt I could cover Persian well enough and it could bait out Pineco for Primeape and Porygon and start the game off super strong, similarly to lead Lickitung but with better surprise factor. Graveler here felt pretty mandatory since I have a million Pine-weaks on this team. After this, I decided to make Weezing RestTalk because otherwise I get blown up by Primeape, especially since dawn had been using it a lot, and the surprise factor and help against Persian is always nice. One of my other favorite teams I made during NUCL.

ALTPL2 FINALS - vs Banbadoro (L)
Lead Counter Lickitung + Dug Oct Birdless

https://pokepast.es/cf5e56f735f7f851
:gs/lickitung: :gs/stantler: :gs/weezing: :gs/octillery: :gs/pineco: :gs/dugtrio:
Once I got started on building, I had a pretty solid idea of what the pool of Pokemon I wanted to pull from was, but very little idea of which combination of six beyond wanting to use a pretty basic core of Stantler, Weezing, Octillery, and Pineco. I experimented with Fearow, Dugtrio, Pupitar, and Porygon/Wigglytuff. Then I had a pretty silly idea. "Does Lickitung learn Counter?" It does. Counter is at first pretty silly but it's not that bad on paper; lead Lickitung baits out Primeape and you can smack it for an OHKO with Counter, assuming you don't get crit, which can be a big trade for a high octane offense. It can also make up for a lack of Earthquake against something like Graveler or Weezing because they are forced to use a physical move to hit Lickitung. Lastly, I was pretty confident I wanted a ground type. I debated using Pupitar but ended up choosing Dugtrio since I felt Pupitar would make the team too slow with Stantler as the fastest Pokemon and everything else being under even Flareon. Sadly, I didn't really get to play the game, but I still think the team as a whole is neat.

NUCL FINALS - vs DiannieRatson (W)
Dash Dug + Miracle Pine + RestTalk Xatu

https://pokepast.es/82248bc9017f42e8
:gs/pineco: :gs/xatu: :gs/octillery: :gs/primeape: :gs/rapidash: :gs/dugtrio:
I looked at Diannie’s scout and figured XaDug would be an amazing bring with so many of her teams weak to one or both. I didn’t think I would need Thief on it considering Spikes support and the Xatu-fragility of most of her offenses, so I just used RestTalk. I knew she used a ton of Persian, so I wanted Pine in the lead with Miracle (would also help with Pory or Wiggly if either showed up). I debated using Stantler but figured I needed Primeape to cover Curse normals. Team is pretty weak to Fearow and Xatu with Weezing last, and help against other Weezing is always appreciated when using Primeape (even if I already had Dug and Xatu), so I threw on Dash to cover these roles and to provide Speed control and additional help against fires.

I’d just like to shoutout MrSoup and dawnbuster for helping me with teambuilding/giving look-overs/playing test games throughout NUCL and ALTPL from time to time.

Overall, I may not be the most creative builder in terms of using wacky/conventionally bad Pokemon to solid effect like someone like MrSoup may be, but I hope I am at least able to show my ability to make good teams with good mons but unusual combinations of said Pokemon (even if ironically most of the teams here are quite standard in structure).

Free GSC in NUPL. That is all.
1709247002497.png
 

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