Giratina (Mixed Attacking Spinblocker)

[timetwister]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/giratina

[SET]
Name: Mixed Attacking Spinblocker
Move 1: Hidden Power Fire
Move 2: Shadow Sneak
Move 3: Draco Meteor
Move 4: Outrage/Dragon Claw
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Brave
IV: 31 / 31 / 30 / 30 / 31 / 14
EV: 252 ATK / 4 DEF / 252 SATK

Why this set deserves to be on site:
-This provides a bulkier alternative to Giratina-O and allows for Leftovers recovery
-Still can deal plenty of damage, and can still spinblock of course!
-The addition of Pressure together with the greater bulk sets it apart from the Giratina-O set.

Additional Comments:
-The given IV's are the best possible for Brave HP Fire, in my opinion, though there are a couple of others to consider:

30 / 31 / 30 / 30 / 31 / 18
31 / 31 / 30 / 30 / 31 / 2
30 / 30 / 31 / 30 / 31 / 14

-I'm not convinced that Dragon Claw is a choice (as I haven't tested it myself), but the drop in power is very concerning.
-If you decide to use the 2 Speed spread, shift the 4 EV's from Def to SPE so that you outspeed 8 Speed EV Adamant Scizor by one point.

Teammates and Counters:
-Thunder Wave support is always welcome as it makes up for the fact that we're cutting speed to keep bulk. An excellent pokemon for such support would be Groudon as Giratina can take the strong Water attacks from Kyogre and Palkia that are aimed at Groudon.
-Of course, you'll need someone to lay the entry hazards for Giratina to protect. Forretress is quite possibly the best choice as Giratina resists Fire (Forretress' only weakness) and Forretress resists the Dragon, Ice, Ghost, and Dark weaknesses of Giratina.

 

[Despotar]

I would mention trick room as a good support move for Giritina, as that makes this set all the more viable. If you do so, use this IV spread. 31 / 31 / 30 / 30 / 31 / 2.
Also, this pairs well with the Ubers SD scizor set, as they resist each others weakness's,
and also both get usage from trick room's effect.
I like the look of this set.

 

[RaikouLover]

this is IDENTICAL to Giritina-O, cept Giritina-O hits harder, and has mostly the same bulk since you arent investing in defenses...

 

[timetwister]

this is IDENTICAL to Giritina-O, cept Giritina-O hits harder, and has mostly the same bulk since you arent investing in defenses...

Except Giratina has base 120 defenses to Giratina-O's base 100 defenses. Also, it has Pressure instead of Levitate.

Yes, it is supposed to resemble the Giratina-O set, but be a bulkier alternative.

 

[Critical_Hax]

Actually, I've seen this be highly effective as an Anti-Lead as well, though I agree Giratina-O probably performs the role of a non-lead Spinblocker better for most teams. I know someone ran a Max Speed Variant, and I suspect it was maxed SpA with Shadow Sneak and Outrage purely there for their utility. He ran Haban Berry and it beat my own Giratina-O lead. Perhaps something like this is also viable, since this would be my personal preference, rather than a slower Anti-lead Spinblocker.

 

[shrang]

Except Giratina has base 120 defenses to Giratina-O's base 100 defenses. Also, it has Pressure instead of Levitate.

Yes, it is supposed to resemble the Giratina-O set, but be a bulkier alternative.

Which means, guess what?? Toxic Spikes now affects you, pretty much neutering your Leftovers.

 

[Megan_Fox]

the large drop in attack power and susceptibility to toxic spikes makes this set not worth it imo

 

[timetwister]

Which means, guess what?? Toxic Spikes now affects you, pretty much neutering your Leftovers.

the large drop in attack power and susceptibility to toxic spikes makes this set not worth it imo

I, personally, disagree with your Toxic Spikes argument.

I think we can all agree that the most common Toxic Spiker by far is Forretress. Since most of the time, you will be switching Giratina into Forretress, the Toxic Spikes won't matter the first time. Then, suppose the forretress user Toxic Spikes on the switch and then switches out (most likely scenerio), then, later in the battle, when it comes back in, and you come back in, yes you get poisoned, but you're in better shape than you would be had you been Giratina-O considering Stealth Rock. Also, you may have gotten in a Rapid Spin in yourself in the mean time!

Since the main point of this set is to spin block, I'd rather take the recovery options. Also, I like the fact that Giratina is never 2HKO'd by Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout.

*calcs in rain:

Scarf Kyogre Water Spout @ full HP vs. Giratina-O: 51.5-60.5%
Scarf Kyogre Water Spout @ 245/342 (Max damage of Shadow Sneak taken into effect) vs. Giratina: 36.7-43.3%

Scarf Kyogre Water Spout @ full HP vs. Giratina: 39.5-46.7%
Scarf Kyogre Water Spout @ 275/342 (Min damage of Shadow Sneak taken into effect) vs. Giratina: 31.7-37.4%

I think this shows how bulky Giratina is, even without EV investment.

 

[capefeather]

"MAS" Giratina Draco Meteor vs Rock Polish Groudon: 56.4% - 66.7%
"MAS" Giratina Shadow Sneak vs Rock Polish Groudon: 12.2% - 14.6%

I really, really don't like that this never KOes RP Groudon, especially since:

Rock Polish Groudon Dragon Claw vs "MAS" Giratina: 54% - 63.5%

... Yeah, I'd rather not.

Then, suppose the forretress user Toxic Spikes on the switch and then switches out (most likely scenerio), then, later in the battle, when it comes back in, and you come back in, yes you get poisoned, but you're in better shape than you would be had you been Giratina-O considering Stealth Rock.

Giratina isn't affected by Stealth Rock? O_O

 

[Megan_Fox]

i dont really get the point of that calc because seeing that all giratina can do is deal shadow sneak kyogre to prevent it from being 2hko'd.

And if its not a switchin, both giratina forms will get a chance to outrage in which the difference of power is shown

Giratina-O- 71.3% - 83.9% good chance of OHKO after sr and 1 layer of spikes

Giratina-52.2% - 61.9%

I, personally, disagree with your Toxic Spikes argument.

I think we can all agree that the most common Toxic Spiker by far is Forretress. Since most of the time, you will be switching Giratina into Forretress, the Toxic Spikes won't matter the first time. Then, suppose the forretress user Toxic Spikes on the switch and then switches out (most likely scenerio), then, later in the battle, when it comes back in, and you come back in, yes you get poisoned, but you're in better shape than you would be had you been Giratina-O considering Stealth Rock. Also, you may have gotten in a Rapid Spin in yourself in the mean time!

how so they both take SR damage?

edit: capefeather beat me to it, also his point of rp don is yet another reason, giratina-o is one of the select few that are guarenteed to beat rp don

 

[timetwister]

Yes, but with Leftovers, you effectively halve the damage taken by SR as opposed to, that's what I was saying in terms of "better shape."

And I have another point I didn't really feel needed to be brought up, but I now feel it needs to be said. I'm in no way saying this is the "100% best alternative to Giratina-O" and that "everyone should use this instead of Giratina-O!" I thought the entire point of these analyses were to provide options for people. The vast majority of wi-fiers are unable to use Giratina-O due to the fact that it is not allowed on wi-fi without an Action Replay code. I think this should be listed as an option for Giratina, so that wi-fiers have something to go on.

 

[capefeather]

OK. Giratina-O achieves the same stats as the set ITT with 92 Atk / 160 Def / 92 SpA / 160 SpD with 4 EVs to spare, at which point I guess the decision is between Leftovers recovery and Levitate. So you're basically going to have to convince us that Leftovers + Pressure is significantly better than Levitate is, or run significantly more defensive EVs on the set. I say the former because there's a reason the MAS Giratina-O description pumps all the EVs into Atk/SpA/Spe (actually many reasons as the description demonstrates) so if this Giratina ~ equivalent-stats Giratina-O < analysis Giratina-O, then there's no point. The latter puts you in competition with Great Wall and Calm Mind Giratina. Yeah, I don't know if you'll win that battle.

I understand that you're presenting an alternative and not an improvement, but to lose out on beating immediate threats such as Groudon and Rayquaza, as well as Blissey on stall, is asking for a lot in exchange for not getting 2HKOed immediately by Scarf Kyogre Water Spout. The strength in MAS Giratina-O is that it can pose a large offensive threat while still having just enough natural bulk to stop the other guy from rampaging through your team. Giratina-O already has arguably the best mixed defenses in the game other than its Altered Forme.

EDIT: Oh, yes, and you're also competing with twash's Lead Giratina atm.

 

[timetwister]

OK. Giratina-O achieves the same stats as the set ITT with 92 Atk / 160 Def / 92 SpA / 160 SpD with 4 EVs to spare, at which point I guess the decision is between Leftovers recovery and Levitate. So you're basically going to have to convince us that Leftovers + Pressure is significantly better than Levitate is, or run significantly more defensive EVs on the set. I say the former because there's a reason the MAS Giratina-O description pumps all the EVs into Atk/SpA/Spe (actually many reasons as the description demonstrates) so if this Giratina ~ equivalent-stats Giratina-O < analysis Giratina-O, then there's no point. The latter puts you in competition with Great Wall and Calm Mind Giratina. Yeah, I don't know if you'll win that battle.

I understand that you're presenting an alternative and not an improvement, but to lose out on beating immediate threats such as Groudon and Rayquaza, as well as Blissey on stall, is asking for a lot in exchange for not getting 2HKOed immediately by Scarf Kyogre Water Spout. The strength in MAS Giratina-O is that it can pose a large offensive threat while still having just enough natural bulk to stop the other guy from rampaging through your team. Giratina-O already has arguably the best mixed defenses in the game other than its Altered Forme.

EDIT: Oh, yes, and you're also competing with twash's Lead Giratina atm.

Well, to be fair, I think that both Giratina and Giratina-O handle Rayquaza in the same manner as both OHKO with Draco Meteor, and both are OHKO'd by Draco Meteor should Rayquaza get it off first (same with Outrage on physical Rayquaza variants).

As you can probably tell, I'm not that experienced at writing things like this, so I don't really know what kind of damage calculations you'd like to see and I was hoping more for feedback rather than utter bashing (to which I have to thank you capefeather for a well put argument). I can tell you that Giratina always survives Specs Kyogre Ice Beam, while Giratina-O does not.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

Even not counting Toxic Spikes, you have Spikes to worry about. For a spin blocker, Levitate is probably the best ability there is, and also noting that Tina-O's power boost outweighs Giratina's bulk and leftovers, since it doesn't take Spikes damage, after all.

In one word: "outclassed". Giratina has other ways to abuse it's bulk, and this isn't one of them.

 

[Theorymon]

I am probably going to have to say no on this. Sure its bulkier than Giratina-O, but as a mixed attacker the loss in power and getting hit by Toxic Spikes isnt worth it.

 

[Madray]

Seems viable to me as an anti-spinner, since Foretress will be dealing less damage with Payback (just a certain 5HKO taking Leftovers into account), while Giratina can 2HKO with HP Fire. Here are the calcs:

Giratina's HP Fire @ Specially Defensive Foretress (assuming full HP and Sp. Def EV investment :
 298 Sp.Att vs 240 Sp.Def & 354 HP (280 Base Power): 252 - 300 (71.2% - 84.7%)

Giratina's HP Fire @ Specially Defensive Foretress (while raining) :
 298 Sp.Att vs 240 Sp.Def & 354 HP (140 Base Power): 128 - 152 (36.2%  - 42.9%)

Foretress's Payback (44 Att EVs) @ Giratina (4 def EVs, 0 HP EVs, 30 Def IVs):
227 Att vs 276 Def & 441 HP (200 Base Power): 120 - 142 (27.2% - 32.2%)

As you can see, this Giatina can take out Forretress with ease, even if Spikes are on the field. Toxic Spikes are only viable on Foretress anyway in Ubers, so Giratina will be probably not be poisoned. However, Giratina lacks the power of Giratina-O, and thus can't do that much to other Pokes. Seems better off if you just use Giratina-O as your anti-spinner.

 

[Jibaku]

This on its own is a good set, but Giratina-O's existence drags it down despite the bulk. As people has said, For Lefties + extra bulk you lose more than a Life Orb's worth of power (bar HP Fire) and the immunity to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and even Earthquake (which is actually one of Giratina-O's main methods of switching in, and there is a fair amount of Earthquakes you can switch in on), and capefeather pointed out a Giratina-O spread that matches this Giratina's stats perfectly. Since this set lacks recovery or the ability to stall, Pressure isn't going to help it.

This set has two HUGE merits. One is the element of surprise, the other is the ability to use it on WiFi without resorting to AR. With those in mind, I think a mention in Optional Changes would suffice, rather than an actual set.

 

[shrang]

Basically, what a spin-blocker needs is a combination of i) durability and ii) offensive momentum. Giratina-O is good because it has reasonable durability (Maybe an understatement) and great offensive momentum. Giratina-A is viable because of its huge durability (See Great Wall and Calm Mind set) but not as much in the momentum field. However, with this set, you are basically taking away the one thing that makes Giratina-A usable over Giratina-O (Its durability) and giving it more offensive momentum, which won't get it to Giratina-O's level. You're pretty much taking away what it does best and giving it a mediocre alternative. It's like giving 252 HP/128 Def/128 SpD or something like that to Gengar and telling it to spin block. Another example, this is like telling your 100m sprinter to go train to be a marathon runner when you have a perfectly good marathon runner ready to go.

However, Jibaku does raise a good point that since you can't use O readily on WiFi, it is probably worth a mention that Giratina can do the same job (Albeit not as well) should a WiFi player want to use it.

 

[Fireburn]

To be honest the lack of offensive power really hurts this set's effectiveness and being hit by Spikes/TSpikes really makes it easier for Stall teams to take down. I really don't think this is worth using even on Wi-Fi. Giratina-O just does this kind of thing so much better even though its more expected.

Rejecting. Sorry bro, I hope this doesn't discourage you from future contributions.

 

[ToF]

I was gonna add onto what Jibaku said. This set is surprisingly effective because of its sheer unpredictability. That, and its basically assumed that every non-origin Giratina carries Will-O-Wisp and Rest, which means its pretty easy to get surprise kills on things like CM Latias, Forretress before it sets up, and even stupid Mewtwo users.

Maybe it shouldn't be a spinblocker set persay, but definitely this set has merit because of the surprise factor.

 

[Misa]

Since this set works better as an Anti-lead compared to a Mixed Spinblockers, maybe you could change this analysis into describing how Giratina works better as an Anti-lead compared to a Spinblocker.

Then again, Giratina-O would fare as an Anti-lead just as fine, so I'm not sure if this set is worth it.

 

[mtr]

Merits a mention for Wifi Ubers players, but other than that there's no reason to use this over Giratina-O, as others have stated.

 

[Theorymon]

Okay this will just get a mention on optional changes, locking.