Announcement Gen 9 S/V National Dex UU Metagame Discussion

I am curious about people's opinions on the meta right now, so here are some questions for y'all:
postes by lupla, the idea was from mareanie but he can't double post kek
1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)

1) Hyper Offense - lots of broken mons rn, obviously means ho is broken as well, but ho is pretty lame to play imo
2) Bulky Offense - tier has a lot of really solid pivots and broken breakers, bo good too and also the most enjoyable to play
3) Stall - with ho being so good stall has to have some kind of niche, and is more fun to play/build than ho is. There's just something satisfying about watching all the volcs, zamas, and shifus fail to do damage. Also garg is so broken LOL
4) Balance - yeah balance is kinda rough. Eventually you will fall apart to something. Not sure that running fat but not fully committing is the way to go here. Running more pivots instead of walls ala BO just seems better.

2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
use :sv/garganacl: on ho, bo, balance, and stall and you will win.
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
:sv/polteageist: ho is kind of insane paired with hazard control. you chip the tinglu, get up psychic terrain, and win. might deserve a ban at some point after the more broken stuff is gone.
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
i'll echo what others said in rain, especially megapert. completely agree that gren is the most broken element, although plot torn might be broken too. megapert just isn't that good with all the rotoms, dnites, latis, etc.
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
:sv/clefable: really doesn't get enough love. cm sets with knock/trick barb are unwallable, unaware cm is one of the only reliable answers to volc, especially with tera dragon, which also allows clef to beat sd urshifu, zard y, and megapert. yet out of all the teams i have in my builder, the only ones that have clef are the ones i built.
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use? garganacl is broken lol
7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use? clef, see above
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex UU?
punching gloves shifu is the one i've seen, and it's really good. While the damage boost isn't that great, you save all kinds of chip from potential life orb and opposing helmets.
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex UU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
Using new stuff is always fun, but it can be hard to build a reliable team. I'll give it a 7.
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex UU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?
4, there's a ton of broken mons but fortunately the worst offender in chiyu is gone. other stuff that probably has to go includes volc, gren, and melm.
 
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I am curious about people's opinions on the meta right now, so here are some questions for y'all:
postes by lupla, the idea was from mareanie but he can't double post kek
:sv/melmetal::sv/ting lu::sv/dragonite:

Touching on the above as I do think BO is the most consistent way to win right now, but these are the three main Pokemon I'd have to give the most credit to on such teams. Melmetal in particular gets a special mention as its already by far one of the scariest and most defining aspects of the tier on its own - it's just that BO makes it even less expendable and negotiable than it already is, if mostly because of the increased flexibility that Choice Band and Punching Glove sets have with the proliferation on pivoting support these archetypes bring to the table, as well as the instant hit-taking but no less passive nature of AV sets being far more valuable there. Ting-Lu is another key component of the general metagame and BO is certainly no exception, it's an incredible mixed wall that provides crucial hazard and anti-offense support for said offensive teammates to reliably function and fall back on when paired up with Tera types. Lastly, Tera Normal Dragonite stands out as the best all-purpose wincon to have by far, bringing immense utility to the table between its useful defensive profile and priority ESpeed against the overwhelming styles of HO and Rain, while being incredibly difficult to reliably handle with Dragon Dance sets of its own.

:sv/iron valiant:

Iron Valiant is arguably my favorite new drop of the generation, and easily passes in both conceptual and competitive aspects. I've notably been enjoying the use of mixed sets with Life Orb or Booster Energy as the item of choice, which help fix most of its issues with instant power and coverage against the overall metagame. STAB Fairy + Fighting + Ghost with Tera is super deadly against a lot of teams right now and additional moveslot options (Knock and TWave/Bolt being my preferences) come together to make it a formidable wallbreaker, as its ability to go both physical or special means would-be checks can't immediately switch into it safely due to the threat of giving free opportunities to certain sets. SD, Specs, and CM in particular are all viable alternatives with a wide variety of other Tera types to choose from and there's rarely anything that can cover all four.

:iron valiant: + :weavile:

Here's an offensive core that I've especially enjoyed using and believe will help get the most of out Iron Valiant's potential. Mixed sets can occasionally struggle to beat common Psychics such as both Slowking formes that have been rising since the Chi-Yu ban, alongside Tornadus-T's continued prevalence as an offensive pivot, with the latter even being able to outspeed non +1 sets and threaten an OHKO in return. Banded Weavile aims to remedy this by punishing players overrelying on said maneuver to switch around it, as Weavile can easily come in on the predicted double to chip these answers down with Pursuit or even force a Terestialize, preventing them from being able to safely check Valiant out of 2HKO range. It also provides additional support against faster threats such as +2 Rillaboom and +2 G-Moltres with a priority Ice Shard to help pin down more offensive matchups, which don't carry as many long-term resists in general. While Valiant helps weaken shared checks such as Tapu Fini and can easily abuse Pokemon such as Iron Hands or Melmetal that Weavile tends to bring in to wallbreak itself.

:sv/aegislash::sv/aegislash-blade:

I especially enjoy using Aegislash to plug holes into the gaps of most defensive teams, and it's honestly weird to see how little people tend to prepare for this in the long-run. To simply put it, KingsTox + Shadow Ball with Defense investment is currently an incredible combination to have. It's everything other defensive steels like Scizor and Jirachi want to be when it comes to forcing game-to-game progress, and Aegislash absolutely gets more than enough chances to use it with the sheer amount of opportunities it currently gets, such as within its designated role of handling the combination some of the most dangerous Fighting and Psychics around, namely M-Medicham, Tapu Lele, and all Zamazenta sets barring Tera Dark, on top of being able to further abuse Substitute and neutral Tera types to reinforce its matchups against these types of teams after grabbing said opportunity, like against Amoonguss and the Slowtwins.

:sv/iron jugulis:

I honestly thought Iron Jugulis was going to be trash, but having seen and recently used the Scarf set for myself, it surprised me. Should you manage to hit your Hurricanes on a good day, this can genuinely put in work. Tera-Boosted Flying-STAB coming off Base 108 Speed (ignore Scarf Kart and Lati) is very solid for cleaning late-game with a lack of offensive resists in its own right and Knock + U-turn support helps keep it fresh in fatter matchups. Not a game-changer in the slightest but a very enjoyable take on an otherwise average mon regardless. s/o to lupla for the support as always

Bag Punching Glove SV Sprite.png
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Bag Heavy-Duty Boots Sprite.png
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Echoing much of what was said already, Punching Glove definitely stands out for some of the stuff it enables down here, namely Urshifu and Melmetal. Other things I will mention include the importance of Boots on the defensive metagame from previously and the new addition of Booster Energy, which outside of the aforementioned Valiant, has already been shown to have a huge albeit limited impact on some of the Pokemon above, some of which we could potentially get and thus need to look out for.

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This was fun to do and it's always nice to have to see fresh discussion prompts that help lighten the mood so we can instead focus on what's most enjoyable to us right here and right now. Again, thanks.
 
My turn!

1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall

1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
1. Hyper Offense
2. Bulky Offense
3. Stall
4. Balance

2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
:tornadus-therian:
I personally believe Tornadus-T is the best Pokemon in the tier, and big part of it is its ability to offer so much for every team out there. Great speed control, hazard removal in a meta where Spikes are still lowkey spammed, Knock Off + U-turn alongside broken Regenerator is just great. Rain is also excellent right now, which Torn-T is a great asset for.

3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
:rillaboom:
Personally am quite the fan of Rillaboom. Both Choice Band and Swords Dance are excellent breakers in the tier - Tera Grass Rillaboom is a whole demon, shit dropped my Tornadus-T from 100 to 0 with a single Wood Hammer. Offers great Rain matchup with Grassy Glide which is valuable for any team out there, not to mention the passive recovery from Grassy Terrain even benefits bulkier builds.

4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
:swampert-mega:
Already talked a bit about it before but I fully believe how broken Rain is is completely blown out of proportion, and especially this fat fuck gets ban hype for some reason. Mega Swampert is a great Pokemon ofcourse, but not at all broken. It's not difficult to pivot around and with stuff like Rillaboom, Tera Normal Dragonite, Tera Water Buzzwole, Gastrodon, Dauntless Shield Zamazenta and some cool Scarfers like Serperior and Meowscara, I feel like Mega Swampert is kept in check quite easily throughout most games.

5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
:aerodactyl-mega:
I currently find Mega Aerodactyl quite the threat, as its base 150 speed lets it outspeed the entire unboosted meta - huge in a meta where Zamazenta is as dominant as it is. If Zamazenta has already activated Dauntless Shield earlier in the match, Dual Wingbeat actually KO's after Rocks (and has an 87.5% to kill from full without chip), which is crazy good. Mega Aerodactyl also does well into Substitute Serperior, Volcarona, and loves the fact that most Gastrodon are Specially Defensive right now. It's not perfect obviously, Rain and Melmetal are quite bad for it, but I still think this Pokemon deserves a bit more recognition.

6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
:annihilape:
Broken monkey is broken. Specially Defensive Bulk Up can just steal away so many games for absolutely free and I continue to love every second of it.

7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
:medicham-mega:
Trailblaze Mega Medicham is a lot of fun currently and since the meta is still somewhat more offensive, it can steal away a lot of games just like Annihilape, just a bit less extreme.

8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex UU?

Punching Glove is an obvious answer, but I haven't used any of the others ones though. All I can say is that Punching Glove is an insane item and makes both Melmetal and Urshifu-RS even better than they already were in Generation 8.

9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex UU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
The meta is really fun since we have so many more tools than in Generation 8, so I'd currently give it around a 7 or 8 on basis for fun.

10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex UU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?
However, the tier is not at all competitive and so many Pokemon currently can just steal away games no matter how perfect you play. Zamazenta, Volcarona, Melmetal and Greninja are all obvious bans for me, though both Mega Charizard X and Y, Annihilape and Espathra are on my radar as well. And then I haven't even mentioned stuff like Mega Mawile and Nasty Plot Tornadus-T...
 
Mega Swampert ban hype is kind of silly, even if we assume rain is broken (I'm split on it myself) he isn't even a top 5 issue in terms of rain, especially with how many checks for it are floating around. Something like Greninja continues to be a lot more immediately annoying imo.

Annihilape is also incredibly annoying, same with Zamazenta and Tornadus-T. All of them feel like way too much for the current tier and they're super unfun to deal with. Melmetal being down here is also not my favorite, not 100% sure how I feel about Deoxys-D though since I haven't run into it a lot.
 
1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
1. Bulky Offense
2. Hyper Offense
3. Stall
4. Balance

2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
Speaking strictly for Hyper Offense since it's the team style I build the most currently. Would also post a Bulky Offense pokemon but ion want this to be too long.

:Kommo-o:
Tera Normal Boomburst Kommo-o is a menace and has very little answers defensively once it's able to Clangerous Soul. +2 Boomburst is extremely tough to switch into and would be defensive checks such as Spdef Jirachi, Aegislash, Celesteela (steel types in general) fear Flamethrower cooking them to hell. The best answers from experience are Unaware Spdef Clef, Spdef Sableye (not common & can't touch it back) and Scarf Blacephalon as a soft answer. Checking it offensively isn't that easy either due to defense raises. Also personally I run Bulletproof since it allows you to use stuff like Venusaur-M as set up fodder and allows you to not be revenged by Scarf Lele since it blocks Focus Blast.

a game where I used it https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexuu-1748309914-0ntgdgw9korvduhffb4s9mkrjryflaopw

3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
:Urshifu-Rapid-Strike:
Idc if he's broken this thing is hilarious to use bruh. Swords Dance Urshifu is absurd and often finds itself winning games on team preview. At a certain point in the game you'll SD, click Surging Strikes and watch things just plummet as if they never existed. Punching Glove is the go to item for the most part on SD Urshifu, but I've also been told Fight-Z is also solid as well. Tera Water is the main Tera you'll use for the most part, but I don't see why you couldn't go Tera Fight if you really want to break past Tangrowth that bad, while also making yourself neutral to Grass to beat offensive answers such as Glide Rillaboom, Kartana and Meowscarada.

4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?

:Swampert-Mega:
Gonna be honest everyone has said it, but it's true that Swampert-Mega is extremely overrated. Like Mareanie said, there's ample ways to handle it and most of said ways are already relatively common options for a multitude of other reasons in their own right. They just also happen to handle Pert as well. Rain as a whole rn is extremely easy to farm wins with, but that's not mainly due to Swampert. A big hand in that is how easy it is for Gren and Manaphy to spiral out of control in games + Pelipper being an extremely good weather setter.

5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
:Iron Moth:
Poison/Fire is an extremely spammable typing and coming off of 140 base special attack this thing hits quite hard. But, the main selling point of this pokemon IMO is T-Spikes. T-Spikes allows Moth to actually break past certain defensive answers such as Spdef Sableye and Ting-Lu. Also has a decent Sun MU.

6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
:Rabsca:
I will say it, Trick Room is honestly alright. I will owe it partially to this ugly fucker & and partially to Melmetal being absolutely stupid. But, Rabsca allows you to unironically TR once, go into your strongest pokemon and play ultra aggressively & somewhat recklessly since you're able to revive that pokemon once and maybe twice a game due to leppa berry. It's not a crazy consistent playstyle, but it's fun as hell.


7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
:Rillaboom:
Tera Grass is stupid.

8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex UU?
Punching Glove is wild. Quite literally just an indirect buff to Urshifu who's already one of my favorite pokemon in the tier. Second option is prolly Loaded Dice, but I've only used it on DD Baxcalibur.


9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex UU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
7 it's fun to use broken stuff

10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex UU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?
This shit a 2 bruh, ain't nothing competitive bout this tier atm.
 
I am curious about people's opinions on the meta right now, so here are some questions for y'all:
postes by lupla, the idea was from mareanie but he can't double post kek


1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall

1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex UU?
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex UU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex UU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?

this post was shamelessly stolen from the OU thread
ooh lemme try this
1. I'd say Bulky Offense is defo the best of the bunch with HO and Balance not being far behind and Stall being left to rot. (1st: Bulky Offense: 2nd: Hyper Offense: 3rd: Balance: 4th: Stall
2. Can't answer for Stall, but ik that Bulky Offense, HO, & Balance all love having Torn-T on their team either as a Nasty Plot Sweeper or a Defog supporter. On Bulky Offense, Annihilape is defo the best Pokemon with Volc not being far behind. At least when I tried to build HO teams, HO loves having Iron Moth w/ Tera Grass as a Mid Game Breaker. Can decimate teams and I would defo back a Suspect for Iron Moth. On Balance, I really want to answer this, but I cannot, for the life of me, think of anything. If I come up with something, I'll edit this.
3. I LOVE using Mega Gardevoir on HO/BO since it just hits really hard for no reason. On BO specifically, I've found success with HDB Unaware Clefable since it can just sit around and set up Calm Minds. On HO, ik a lot of people run Anni & Volc, but I would not be surpised to see some weird choices that absolutely flip a game, like Tinted Lens Lokix or Mega Manectric joining the HO Club.
4. Defo goes to Torn-T. Like hands down Torn-T is the most overrated Pokemon. It will defo suck when it gets banned eventually because oh boy we all know its coming.
5. Slither Wing. When Torn-T does get banned, don't be suprised to see this guy rising the ranks.
6. Gonna pull the bitch easy choice and go with Iron Moth solely cuz it can absolutely destroy games. If it had Quiver Dance, it would become a war crime shoved into a Switch Cartridge.
7. Mega Gardevoir. Psychic/Fairy is a great STAB combination that is taken to the stratosphere with extra coverage like Aura Sphere to handle Steels looking to block Pixilate Hyper Voice or Psychic/Psyshock. I do, however, believe its strongest set is CM 3 Attacks. Here's the thing, most teams are packing Annihilape or something that doesn't wanna take a Hyper Voice from Mega Gardevoir, so they switch out. You read that switch right, and now you can start packing shit up! I genuinely believe Mega Gardevoir will be a prominent threat once the tier cools down.
8. I haven't really tried any of the new items. I wanna try out Clear Amulet eventually, but I have no idea how I wanna run it in the tier.
9. I'd give the tier a solid 9 for enjoyment. It just feels like Offense Heaven to me and I love it (except when Speed Boost Blaziken comes out then I wanna curl up in a ball and explode)
10. On the other hand, this tier is like a weak 4 in terms of Competitiveness. Some stuff like Annihilape, Tapu Lele, Torn-T, Kartana, Greninja, Manaphy, Iron Moth, Volcarona, Blaziken, Zamazenta, & Aegislash NEED TO BE BANNED. You could literally take 6 of these listed Pokemon, put them on an HO team, and easily win games. I do think Annihilape and Volcarona need to go first, but I really wanna see how the tier could develop with Zamazenta or Manaphy (if Manaphy stays, rain HAS to go), and if Torn-T gets banned, there goes half my teams LMAO.

Sorry to make this very long, I just had some strong opinions regarding certain topics.
 

Runo

Blehhhhhoooooouughhh.....
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Lupla said:
1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall

1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
  1. Hyper Offense
  2. Bulky Offense
  3. Stall
  4. Balance
HO is incredible and that makes sense for the start of a meta: It has so much to work with and few consistent checks so ofc it's going to be top tier in this lawless meta. BO is also really good since it also got some new toys from the upper tiers and the new gen, it too also has a lot to work with and presents good consistency against other playstyles. Stall is :worrywhirl:, but that's a step up from last gen, where it was completely unviable by the end of the gen. Stall is pretty matchup fishy with no Chansey/Blissey to fill up the void. But given the tools it has, it can put in the work in a lot of games. I'm not even gonna touch on Balance because I don't like it and never have.
Lupla said:
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
1671734983291.png
1671735045029.png
1671735085850.png
1671735145487.png
(Latias)
These mons aren't really playstyle specific but each of them are elite threats who can fit on a ton of builds. All of them provide a fair degree of defensive utility and all can act as powerful win-conditions against a weakened team (Melm with its Tera Steel DIBs, Aegi with its SD sets, Torn with NP, and Lati with literally every CM set).
Lupla said:
3. What are some fun Pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles?
1671732963095.png
Stall - It's a bit goofy but Special Defensive Flygon can give Stall some solid role compression against threats like Charizard Y or Volcarona. While also sporting an immunity to both Ground and Electric Types, letting it easily gain momentum off of volt-switches from Rotom-Wash, while also being able to outlast a lot of hazard setters like Ting-Lu or Gastrodon.
1671732862688.png
HO - Possibly broken but there's more than enough ways to check this mon in the builder. The real reason I consider this mon a terror is the same reason as last gen: Double Dance + Z Move sets. Sometimes it doesn't even need the Z-move, it can also run HDB/Life Orb + Tera Electric and still be a monster.
1671732835765.png
BO - Tera Grass Banded Wood Hammer is kinda :worrywhirl:, but fairly easy to handle. It's really good to have if you really hate playing against Rain. SD sets are also killer.
1671732805450.png
Balance - Clefable is kinda nutty on Balance and Stall builds. It has almost boundless utility and is incredibly potent as a win condition with CM sets.
Lupla said:
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
:sv/Dragonite:
The below usage stat is from round 1 of the ongoing NDUU Kickoff. Let it be a mark of shame.
| 13 | Dragonite | 6 | 9.68% | 0.00% |
Dragonite had solid use throughout round 1 and yet had that marvelous win rate of 0. I can't say for certain but the amount of bulky steels in addition with exemplary revenge killers in the meta makes it hard for Dragonite to actually sweep. Lets hope it does better in future rounds, but it probably won't.
Lupla said:
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
:SV/Weavile:
Who let Weavile back into NDUU smh, Tera just makes Band sets nearly impossible to switch into consistently and it's still a monster even without Tera. Oh yeah this mon also has Pursuit in case you forgot. Good luck keeping your Mega Latias or Tornadus alive.
Lupla said:
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?

Garganacl can be pretty oppressive sometimes. I use it on Stall and Salt Cure makes it really easy to force progress against a lot of fatter teams. That move is really gross to the point where it makes Garganacl borderline unhealthy for the meta. Iron Defense Body Press is also a really scary win-con because it can just sit on most physical attackers, and if it Teras into Fairy or Water then it's pretty much impossible to stop without an incredibly strong special attacker.
Lupla said:
7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
:sv/Melmetal:
Instead of going in depth about why I like to use Melmetal, I'm just gonna post clips of Melm tearing up teams like a Terrier when it sees a rat.
Melm cutting down 3 mons because Specs Lele missed Focus Blast
Melm beating up on a Stall after Dondozo was removed
Melm effortlessly ripping through a team
Melm is really scary because if you make a mistake or get unlucky when it's out on the field, then your ass is getting pounded.
Lupla said:
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex UU?
1671721445192.png

I'm using Melm a lot, so I would be a fool to not run Punching Glove on it. It's like that item was made solely for Melm because it's more than capable of running away with the game with that and Tera steel. Urshifu also makes good use of the item with SD Sets being kinda beastly to switch into.
Lupla said:
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex UU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
8/10, This tier is quite goofy right now and I'm enjoying the chaos. Also, Stall isn't completely unviable this time. :blobpex::swole::quagchamppogsire::fukyu:
Lupla said:
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex UU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?
2/10, Too many brokens plz ban. I give it a 2 because it's obviously an toxic metagame, but nowhere near the levels Day 1 NDOU looked like (which is my only reference point tbh)

On another topic: I really hope that the NDOU suspect voters (myself included) decide to ban Tera. I don't give two shits about the health of OU, I care about the tiers below and the Tera suspect is a golden opportunity to balance this tier by proxy (Which is why I got reqs for it in the first place).
:weavile::dragonite::Kommo-o::Volcarona::Melmetal::Annihilape::Espathra::Tapu Lele::Polteageist:
All these mons and more are ridiculously constraining on the builder because Tera requires you to run incredibly fat/specific counters to them such as Ting-Lu, Bronzong/Jirachi, Dondozo, etc. So removing Tera makes them considerably easier to handle.

This whole post needs spacing because it's kinda hard to read, but I'm only gonna touch on your #10 answer.
10. Some stuff like ... Iron Moth ... & Aegislash NEED TO BE BANNED.
These two are kinda L takes not gonna lie:
:Iron Moth:If you're referring to Iron Moth's Booster Energy + Agility sets, I'm pretty clueless as to how this mon would realistically setup on any top tier threat in the meta because this mon just gets shattered by any physical attack and most of the special attackers, outside of Aegi and possibly Volcarona, are able to consistently punish it as it sets up. However, I will say that Specs sets are fairly nasty to switch into. Although it's a bit prediction reliant, it has really good coverage in both its STABs + Energy Ball and that natural power and speed is really REALLY alluring. Powerful? Yes. But broken? I don't know about that.
:Aegislash:While on the topic of powerful but not broken mons, Aegislash is without a doubt a strong top tier threat but the only thing that makes it even close to broken in my eyes is its incredible set diversity, which it can't even do correctly because the current meta invalidates a lot of its sets. I'd actually go so far as to say the Aegislash is HEALTHY for the meta. Not the use "broken checks broken" argument, but Aegislash is a valuable piece of the meta that helps check a lot of the broken mons like Zama, Tornadus-T (not really broken, but that's debatable), Lele, Kartana without SD, etc. I wouldn't be so keen to ban it just yet.

The rest of those mons I can understand/agree with, although I'd like to see Blaziken used more before I consider it a threat. Also 2 things that you missed: Espathra and Polteageist, both are incredibly powerful sweepers and both use Tera to their advantage to become unwallable. It's really easy to setup with those mons and VERY easy for them to spiral out of control and dominate the match.
 
Archetype Overview
Bulky Offense > Hyper Offense > Stall > Balance.

I think most people would be inclined to say HO is the best given all the broken stuff going around but as I'm playing more and more games, I am starting to realise that a well-built hyper offence team can trip up a lot of common hyper offensive archetypes. I was building BO before but Arishemm was the first player to really make me wonder "wow BO can really mess up HO". Stuff like Rotom-W, Melmetal and Ting-Lu are a pain for most HO teams to deal with since you can screw up their breakers by status, wearing them down or simply going for the trade. HO is still the bomb so it's getting second. I'll get to stall later but Balance rn feels like the worst team style by far. Balance in this metagame feels like a bad midground between the offence and defence in the metagame, but it does a lacklustre job at exerting both offensive and defensive pressure.

:clefable: :sableye-mega: :skarmory:

I know we're on the Gen 9 gravy train of "wow stall sucks" but rn we have fairly good tools at our disposal that make stall actually viable as an archetype. First of we don't have Chi-Yu and we don't have Gholdengo. Second of all, we have incredible tools for Stall such as Skarmory, Clefable, Hippo, Gastro, Tornadus-T, Mega Sableye, Garganacl, Quagsire and Dondozo. I never booted up the stall I had, so I can't say if all of these mons have a place. The third thing going in Stall's favour is that a lot of traditional stall breakers (think Hoopa-U, Mega Hera, DemonMew) all feel like deadweights in the current metagame. The final thing going for stall is that it exerts a surprising amount of offensive pressure. CM Clef, IronPress Garga and even the rare Dozo are all vicious set up Pokemon that double as defensive plugs. Stall does have to contend with this metagame being fast-paced and hazard control being king. But keep in mind, we always have our good friend torn to defog all the hazards away.

(Side note: Stall also has the advantage of having melm checks built-in)

:Ting-lu: :pelipper: :damp-rock:
I have nowhere near enough experience to give definitive thoughts on #2. I think a lot of archetypes have room for variation given the current metagame. Ting-Lu is the closest thing I would say that is a Bulky Offense staple but you have room for variation (maybe slotting hippo or gastro > Big Ting). Surprisingly even Rain doesn't seem to have hard and fast staples. Ideally, it's Pelipper, M-Pert, Gren, Manaphy, Torn +1 but a dude got to #2 with a team that doesn't have M-Pert, Gren or Manaphy. Riddle me that. I'll touch on it later on but there's a lot of cracker stuff of rain that needs some love like Keld, Urshifu, Floatzel (yes you read that right, credits to adem) and Skewda.

:tornadus-Therian:

Tornadus-T as an answer for question #2 (what Pokemon are staples...) is cheating. I know this gets stated a lot in the past but Tornadus can be used on virtually every single archetype from Stall to Bulky Offence to Hyper Offence. You can even justify Torn-T on Webs, Screens and Trick Room (as the reserve fast mon). If you have a free team slot, you should almost always consider Torn-T for that. That is to say if you haven't already used it in the first few slots. Far and away the best hazard control in the metagame and has very solid speed control to boot.


Stuff I Like (combining questions 3, 5, 6, 7)
I have used a lot of stuff in this metagame. I have more things that I have in my builder. And finally, I have a few things I have a week to test out for kicks. There is a lot I like here. I should have kept a notepad for all the wacky stuff I encountered whilst laddering but I will look through my builder for now.
:charizard-mega-y:

If you squeezed them hard enough, you could pack the switch-ins to this thing into a little gondola and take them on a scenic trip to Venice. It's standard procedure at this point: If it moves, click fire blast. If it tanks fire blast, click fire blast again. If it's a water type (except pelipper), click solar beam.

:Charizard-mega-x:
I should probably run Dragon Dance like a normal human being but I had tons of fun with Swords Dance + Scale Shot. Zard-X also does what you expect it to. I see this going soon ngl but we will have it for 2 months guaranteed.

Leads
:azelf: :mew: :ribombee: :shuckle: and the trick room crew :hatterene: :cresselia:

Explaining why these pokemon are good feels like explaining why cars have wheels. I will say the weakest link here is shuckle and if it weren't for the convenience of Webs + Rocks, I wouldn't even stick it here on this list. Regardless, I believe that all of them are workable and fulfil unique roles in the current metagame.

Mew is the traditional lead whilst Azelf has taunt, boom, knock off and a significantly smaller margin of error. Rest should be fairly straightforward. Shout out to Runoisch's ribombee

:meowscarada:

Keep in mind that this is the fastest scarfer we have available and outspeed virtually every swift swimmer running +attack or +special attack on rain. Damage output can be augmented by terastalisation but once OU bans it, it will be a lot more noticeable. I have been running spikes on the last slot but I feel I never get the perfect opportunity to click it. You are more than welcome to run something like Play Rough for Kommo-o.

:garganacl:

It is insane how this thing refuses to die. You always have to tip-toe around it since it can come in fairly easily on something like Tornadus-Therian, get an Iron Defense up and be a thorn in the side. You can slot it in most builds but I'm really liking the Hippo + Garga combo. Might be a bit passive but having boosted special defense is always a boon.

:hoopa-unbound:

I know I said this thing felt like a dead weight. That is true (especially when your opponent has something like U-turn Torn + Mewoscarada) but substitute makes it significantly more useful. When you do manage to set up a substitute, it is a menace for slower teams to handle. Substitute also provides a safety net from offensive barrages so you can pick off at least 2 Pokemon.

:rotom-wash:

This thing has saved me so many times against Trick Room Melmetal teams and against Rain that I had to repay my gratitude somehow. Rotom-Wash scratches the itch that few mons can in the builder. The physically defensive pivot is easily its best set but I can see scarf being useful. I run T-wave over will-o'-wisp (with pain split so I at least do something to melm) to help out with speed control but will-'o-wisp is definitely more reliable.

:iron-valiant:

I learnt the true power of this Pokemon after I got humiliated by this in a game. Swords Dance seems to be the straightforward option but the Calm Mind set is a truly potent late-game sweeper. Fairy + Fighting gets the job done against most of the metagame and you could always slap on shadow ball or thunderbolt for nuisances like Jirachi or Aegislash.

:floatzel: :barraskewda:

Two swift swimmers that I'm not seeing a lot of buzz around. Both are capable of two shotting a large portion of the tier. Of the two, I reckon Skewda has the slight edge as its higher attack means a lot more when it's facing a gastrodon. But both are exhilarating to use in-game and I reckon you should give both a shot sometime.

:keldeo:

Specs Keldeo is tough to fit on rain but it brings the advantage of breaking through a lot of annoying threats for rain or softening up special walls for Greninja. I mentioned it's a tough fit and it sure is. Either you sacrifice greninja (arguably the crux of rain outside the pelipper + Mpert core), manaphy (the tankiest mon on rain) or the +1 (and have a team with 5 electric weeks and one tera grass target). None of these choices are easy to make.

:hydreigon:

I have seen maybe two of these on the ladder. I might double-check usage for the tours but I doubt this was brought to many games. If you are running any set, I would advise you to run specs. Nasty Plot sounds good on paper but you are locking your tera option from the builder. Nonetheless, Specs does have its fair share of switch-in opportunities and places pressure on the defensive cores of many bulky offensive teams.

:jirachi:

I won't speak much on this since I haven't used it too much but man is this a pain to kill after it terastalises.

:victini:
Tad underexplored but Z-celebrate is great now that Chi-Yu is gone. Once the meta stabilises, we will definitely start seeing more choiced Tinis as the latis get more usage.

:thundurus-therian:

Prankster T-Wave has come in clutch in so many games. It overlaps quite a bit with thundurus otherwise. At this point in time, I struggle to fit coverage since Prankster T-wave is a huge selling point for me. Hopefully, when the meta settles down a bit, I can crowbar coverage to hit the Mega Latis, Ting-Lu and Gastro.

:bisharp:

Not the mon you expected to see here I presume. Bisharp does struggle a lot with Zamazenta being one of the top dogs but it has valuable priority and an okay typing to make do with it. I haven't run eviolite but I would imagine that helps with a few calcs.

:cradily:

The funniest mon I have ever used. Good sponge into rain without Urshifu but you'll take on a maximum of two threats on rain. Bad on literally any other normal team but I like it for the mirror match. Also means my rocker doubles as a rain check and (more importantly) isn't Mega Swampert.
Overrated Stuff?
Rain is going to be the answer I will sheepishly say to follow the crowd. Rain is definitely good. But broken? Not atm with the exception of Greninja.


There are things I would nominate like Sun and Screens but both have potential on paper and I don't see the two often. It does suck that all we have for dual screens are Klefki, Mewostic, Morgrem, Sableye and Scream Tail. Likewise, Sun is at a point where you're better off stacking fire types + Venu + maybe Hatt and a ground (gl with the ground). Scovillain is Dragonite food (plus it wastes the tera slot you should be reserving for Volcarona) and the photosynthesis mons are outgunned in this power ratrace. But maybe the Chicken, the Bunny and Mothra are enough to carry the archetype.

New Items?

Punching Glove, no contest. However, outside of Urshifu and (maybe!) Scizor I'm not sure what else runs this. Clear Amulet could be nice but we have very few intimidators outside of Gyara (which turns into Mega half the time anyway). Loaded dice could be used on like Baxcalibur ig.

Booster Energy is nice on Iron Valiant. I don't see the need to cut into speed to get the special attack raise since I think Valiant is plenty strong for its purpose as a cleaner.

Rate the Meta (/10)

Fun?

9. No really. It sucks losing games quickly, especially to the likes of Volcarona, but it's very enjoyable atm.

Competitive?

3 Not even close to being balanced. It's not even that stuff here is uncounterable. Yes, we got a lot of rubbish in Alpha but even post Alpha we're going to be having problems balancing the metagame. As it stands, this metagame is trending very heavily towards the broken-check-broken spectrum. Keep in mind, we might not even keep defensive staples such as Tapu Fini, Ting-Lu or Gastrodon by Jan, so good luck then. It's reaching a point where you could ban stuff by throwing darts and we would end up with a (slightly) healthier meta.
 

Runo

Blehhhhhoooooouughhh.....
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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How would you guys rank these guys? Fill in the VR list and make a post abt it below!
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I would love it if a VR Thread (or Personal VR Thread idrc) was created for these, because I foresee this clogging the thread overtime. Also put Electrode and Dracozolt on this list plz ty.
I'm not gonna be bothered to explain any ranking below A+. If you're surprised by anything, I mainly ranked based on my experience with these mons (ex: Nidoking being C tier because I rarely saw it, but it still managed to put in considerable work.)
S and A+ Tier Rankings
S Tier
S

:Melmetal:Melm is probably at it's peak right now. It wasn't even included in SV and yet it got two new toys: Terastallization and Punching Gloves. Tera Steel just makes Melm broken since it's fat af AND impossible to switch into. Then you combine that with Punching Gloves or god forbid Choice Band? Chef's kiss.
:Zamazenta:Zama is legit just the best mon in the metagame, would you expect any less from a mon that's also an A+/S tier threat in OU? It doesn't belong here.

S-
:Tornadus-Therian:I'm a bit hesitant to rank it at pure S just cuz I don't think it's at the same level as Melm or Zama, but it's definitely better than any other the A+ mons. Mans is an titan and is one of the most influential mons in the tier. Dare I say, it helps hold the tier together. Its utility Defog sets are always appreciated, and its Nasty Plot sets are very uh nasty to switch into.
:Greninja::Volcarona:Both of these mons are clear cut among the rest, they're incredibly powerful breakers that you can slap on any team and you generally can't go wrong with using.

A Tier
A+

:Aegislash: Once again, Aegislash is practically running this tier behind the scenes. This is probably the best mon in the tier that isn't broken to some degree just because it's Swords Dance sets are very strong, while it's SubTox sets are hilariously annoying to deal with at times. It's very splashable and can be sometimes hard to predict one of the many sets it can viably run.
:Charizard-Mega-X::Charizard-Mega-Y: Both these mons are super duper broken. They both hit like a freight train and are really hard to account for in the builder. However it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that they require exemplary around the clock hazard control, because if you can't get rocks removed then they're pretty much crippled.
:Kartana:Best Scarf user in NDUU alpha? And it's a revenge killer that can snowball into a win-condition? Sign me up.
:Pelipper::Swampert-Mega:Rain is insanely strong right now. We have both Pelipper AND Mega Swampert like omfg this is ridiculous. Granted, if it was just those mons then I wouldn't call it broken. But Rain also has demons like Greninja, Thundurus, Tornadus, and Manaphy to work with. Not to mention rarer but potent shit like Crawdaunt, or Kingdra, or Barraskewda, or Floatzel, or Urshifu, or any damn water wallbreaker of choice at this point.
:Tapu-Fini:Fini's a great glue mon and is an incredible blanket check to some of the tier's most fearsome threats like Greninja, Zard X, Volcarona, Rain, etc. Defog sets are also very good and Whirlpool is a funny way to screw over Stall and Balance cores.

Xurkitree Tier
X

:Xurkitree: God I hate this bundle of wires, so uncompetitive with Z-Hypnosis. Facing it almost feels like flipping a coin (that's biased in Xurkitree's favor) because despite being the most telegraphed mon in existence, you're still banking on Hypnosis not landing and if it does land then you're fucked. Every time I see it I feel like I have to pray to god that it misses Hypnosis. I hope it gets banned and rots in UUBL forever.

edit: THE VR IS LABLED "SEIZURE WARNING" FOR A REASON
 
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I am curious about people's opinions on the meta right now, so here are some questions for y'all:
postes by lupla, the idea was from mareanie but he can't double post kek


1) Hyper Offense
2) Bulky Offense
3) Balance
4) Stall

1. Rank the above in terms of how much you prefer the above playstyles and how effective/good they are in your opinion (1 being the best and 4 being the worst)
2. What Pokemon do you think are staples for each playstyle, or are very good for each specific playstyle?
3. What are some fun pokemon you like for each playstyle, or for some playstyles
4. Most overrated Pokemon in your opinion?
5. Most underrated Pokemon in your opinion?
6. Favorite new Generation 9 pokemon to use?
7. Favorite non-gen9 Pokemon to use?
8. Have you tried out any of the new items? If so, are there any you like or any that are making a solid impact in Natdex UU?
9. On a scale of 1-10, how much are you enjoying Natdex UU, with 1 being the least and 10 being the most?
10. On a scale of 1-10, how competitive do you find Natdex UU, with 1 being the least competitive and 10 being the most competitive?

this post was shamelessly stolen from the OU thread
1) Hyper Offense
In this tier it seems to just be the easiest style to build and play. Anyone who's faced me on ladder knows I've been spamming a trick room team, the top of the ladder is spamming rain, the team that got me top 100 in the first place was HO, goated style. Staples would be Lele, urshifu I think has a lot of potential, greninja or just rain mons.

2) Bulky Offense
This seems pretty good too, as long as you accept that your bulk is mostly there to set up your offence. There's so much stupidly powerful stuff running around that trying to wall any amount of the meta reliably is close to a fool's errand which will become evident in my comments on the last two styles. However, if played and built right, I'm confident that BO can be just as good as the rain offence and other such styles running around, if not better, due to having more available tools in a game to handle every style. Staples here, I think, would be annihilape, mega mane and cinderace could be incredible, what with it being able to switch up hazards, and potentially sweep with its new addition of swords dance and a solid tera type.

3) Stall
To elaborate on the above; melmetal + annihilape + char-y + lele? There is barely a hope in hell of reliably walling the entire metagame, even for stall. But, as always, stall finds a way. Garganacl is the most frustrating mon in the tier to break, dondozo is excellent for beating physical threats, regenerator cores are alive and well with torn-t, the slows in all their forms and other such mons going around, there are plenty of options for the style to try and survive the onslaught. A team not prepared for stall properly will lose to it, but I find that it's much easier here to actually have a stallbreaker that isn't just dead weight into offense.

4) Balance
I hate that I'm saying this. I'm a balance player at heart, through and through. But fuck me is it bad here. You get all the weaknesses of a stall adverse meta while also not getting enough of the benefit of the offense to keep up. Lele is good, skarm is good, there's enough stuff here that balance feels like it should be good, but unless you're prepared to make a really fat balance team you're either losing to offence or, unless you have the space to pack a stallbreaker, losing to stall. It's infuriating. I do think a solid balance team could find good results, but you'd have to pilot it well or end up incredibly passive using things like ting-lu, skarm. Mega venu could be a good pick here, actually, if you want a slightly out there pick.

In terms of overrated, and put down your pitchforks, I don't actually like zamazenta that much ngl. I probably just haven't used it that much or... at all... but every zam I've met has just died so far. Granted that's because melm trick room is insane, but still. There's a hell of a lot that's good on any team that beats it, with notable inclusions being torn, lele and urshifu (specifically swords dance variants here, since band misses out on an OHKO with strikes). It's still incredible, and very easy to make a team that loses to it because you don't have these checks, so it's still going to be king of the tier for that reason. But because its checks are also some of the best mons around, I don't find it as ridiculous as people seem to make out.

Underrated mon, though, would have to be annihilape. I barely see it on ladder, despite its ability to decimate defensive play and take two or three kills versus offence with tera water. Obviously it can just die if you get a bad matchup, and no priority is annoying, but it's reliably useful and/or a wincon in almost every match I play with it when using my BO team.

Favourite new mon would be Ape too, because of the above, and favourite old gen would be urshifu-R, though that's more because of how it can just win games in OU than any experience using it in UU. If I had to pick my favourite specifically for UU use, that would be Lele. So versatile, best speed control in the tier when scarfed, future sight pulls stall apart if played well, all the coverage you could need, it's great.

New items I don't really think are making much of an impact, but I feel like the punching glove has some hidden use that no-one has unlocked yet. That along with booster energy being limited by the mons it's used by, I could very much see booster valiant getting used to great effect at some point due to its outstanding speed tier at +1 beating basically every scarfer in the tier, and a fair chunk of the swift swimmers.

For how much I'm enjoying Natdex UU, it would be a 2 9. This tier is wild and I love every moment of it, but there are a few bans that probably need to happen before it's perfect, but even without that it's still amazing to play in.

Edit for the above: I have no idea why I thought the scale was 1 best 10 worst lmao

For how competitive it is, probably a 5? Rain is the obviously dominant style in the meta, zam needs to get yeeted and probably melm too, then it'll be great. There's the obvious question of tera too, but that's a discussion for another thread, so I'll not elaborate on that any further.

I believe that's everything, I maayyy post some sets at some point? I don't think I have anything insane rn, though, we'll see how it goes.
 
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It is honestly kind of ridiculous that Annihilape is allowed in this tier. I hope he is one of the first bans once NDUU starts dealing those out, he is way too restrictive without a lot of good counterplay moreso here than in OU, and he spirals out of control more consistently. Have not had half as much trouble with things like Rain Greninja at this point in comparison.

Urshifu is also incredibly annoying, it getting tera water in rain is some of the most unfun moments I've had playing Pokemon.
 
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Made a looping version of Denji and Power's little dance, perfect for a  Discord banner etc : r/ChainsawMan

What's up it's the guy from the rarely used coming in with shifts because Mareanie is asleep, im gonna put a small talk on it as well since this is gonna be lots of fun!



Raises:

:charizard-mega-y: From UU to OU
:cresselia: From UU to OU
:dragonite: From UU to OU
:greninja: From UU to OU
:Hatterene: From UU to OU
:iron valiant: From UU to OU
:melmetal: From UU to OU
:pelipper: From UU to OU
:Rotom-Wash: From UU to OU
:swampert-mega: From UU to OU
:torkoal: From UU to OU
:tornadus-therian: From UU to OU
:urshifu-rapid-strike: From UU to OU
:venusaur: (:venusaur-mega:) From UU to OU
:volcarona: From UU to OU

Drops:

:ditto: From OU to UU
:excadrill: From OU to UU
:gliscor: From OU to UU
:iron treads: From OU to UU
:tyranitar:(:tyranitar-mega:) From OU to UU


(:torkoal:):sv/ninetales:(:pelipper:):sv/politoed:(:swampert-mega:) :sv/seismitoad: (:venusaur:) :sv/scovillain:(:tornadus-therian: nope)
So the main weathers lost almost their entire body and core, leaving the playstyle with just legs to run away and torment ND RU instead. The gen 5 weather duo is by far worse replacements for Sun and Rain with very little role compression to fit in, the abusers aren't happy with this either as only Manaphy survived just to hang out with these mid weirdos. While Seismitoad does the ground role fine (or maybe fitting treads in idk) while also being a decent rain abuser in its own right, Scovillain (for me) is just not a good Venusaur replacement at all, that type combo sounds pleasing at first but in reality it wishes to have a strong neutral coverage like Venusaur had due to the abundance of Dragons and Fires that resist its moves, being a lot more fragile with minimal resistances doesn't help it either, with the only advantage being a Steel resist for Scizor and that's about it, it's too fragile to actually survive most attempts on revenging it.


:sv/rotom-wash: :sv/tornadus-therian:
These two were a godsend for teambuilding, being good glues that cover up pretty much everything. Rotom-W being THE Melmetal answer that didn't made teams passive while also keeping in check almost every rain abuser and most importantly reliable hazard control. Torn-T fills in the same bill but in higher demand thanks to it's Fighting and Grass resist agaisn't Zamazenta, Kartana or Rillaboom and good natural bulk that withstood neutral hits like a champ (such as when fighting the Zards, Scarf Lele, Most Aegislash variants, etc), with Regenerator making it the best pivot in the tier and an excellent addition to any core. Terastallization also expanded the amount of stuff they could handle like Rotom-W turning a 360 in bad matchups or Torn-T avoiding a lot of damage and keeping itself at high ranges with both of them using a Fairy or Dragon change.


:sv/melmetal: :sv/volcarona:
THANK GOD OU TOOK THESE OML. By far the biggest offenders in how teambuilding had to be managed as these two aren't as simple as "play around it" when a bad matchup popped up, no sir, these two INSTANTLY won if you didn't prepared for them and even if you did you'd still get obliterated. Melmetal is straight up unwallable, even the defensive oriented ones do SO MUCH damage to resists like Gastrodon and speaking of those defensive Melms, while those were a good part of the tier, the Gloves or CB sets were menaces that not had to be kept in mind at all times but thanks to Tera, they could win regardless of anything you have. Volcarona was also obnoxious already and while the counterplay for it did exist, it wasn't the best one as those were vulnerable to a decent amount of chip damage to the point where they wouldn't check Volc anymore (Like Zard Y or Ting-Lu) but some like AV Glowking weren't even able to win a 1v1 to begin with.


:sv/excadrill:
If you ask me, Gen 8 ND OU sand can be transferred, updated and then put into the test as pmuch every tool the last gen had is availabe in here (except for Pex and Corv). Excadrill looks to fit into the meta in a similar matter like in OU if we talk about its sets but the enviroment favors offensive sets A LOT with the lack of Zapdos and Corviknight as well as many physical walls that check it being less popular around here, a notable decrease in ways for offense to punish it due to no M-Lopunny, Ash Gren or Garchomp. The presence of Rillaboom, Zamazenta or Scarf Kartana to name a few are still present but this looks like a better outcome than what it had around the end of the last gen.

:sv/tyranitar: :sv/tyranitar-mega:
instead of making this longer (and also being lazy) im calling my trap card to explain it for me Niadev


Notable Mentions:

:urshifu-rapid-strike: The UU mon itself has left us

:zamazenta: | 100 | Zamazenta | 1.126% |

:gliscor: my dream of glisc and serp is fulfilled, ty

:iron treads: better exca lead except when u fight goblins
 
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Gren got taken as Ash-Gren when everyone spammed battle bond despite that form not existing anymore but it should be just gren raising
So it's just an issue of Showdown stats reading Greninja with Battle Bond as Ash-Gren because it assumes it can still turn into it when it should just be Greninja? That makes sense I guess, I was pretty confused when Ash-Gren showed up on the usage stats. Can't say I'm sad to see the frog go though, good riddance imo.
 
Quick thoughts on the new drops now that there's been a bit of leeway in experimentation here.

Gliscor:


Notable Movesets
:toxic orb: Defensive :toxic orb:, :TR01: Swords Dance :TR01:


Gliscor finally makes it's formal return to the lower tiers after it's lifelong era of UU dominance in the early stages of SM. Most likely being able to pick up where the previous dominant Flying-type: Tornadus-T, left off in a few areas, namely as a check to several Fighting-types like Zamazenta lacking Ice Fang, Aegislash, and a few new ones to add to its repertory, like Tyranitar lacking Ice Punch and Nihilego. Access to Poison Heal alongside access to moves such as Toxic, Taunt, Knock Off, and even Swords Dance to pair with the defensive stats/typing it has, all go a long way in making it a unique mix of offense and defense within such a versatile threat. With the proliferation of defensive cores currently centered around specific Pokemon used to handle huge swaths of the offensive metagame at once, like Hippowdon and Celesteela, Gliscor can easily find opportunities to safely setup itself or generate momentum for its team throughout the match with additional moves such as U-turn, Stealth Rock, and Defog.


Iron Treads:


Notable Movesets
:leftovers: Utility Rapid Spin :leftovers:, :assault vest: Assault Vest :assault vest:


Boasting a tremendous amount of utility under its offensive belt, Iron Treads will mostly certainly be a sight worth looking forward to in the teambuilder. Having such an all useful defensive typing with key resistances to Rock, Dragon, Fairy, and Psychic, along with immunities to both Electric and Poison, high speed, and a great selection of Utility moves to pile from will be sure to give it a place on a lot of offensive teams looking to mix and match their way into role compression, such as rotating between its choices of Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin, or even opting for both to go with the likes of Volt Switch and/or Knock Off, although Assault Vest over Leftovers could also be a worthwhile option on defensive spreads to help pivot around the likes of Tapu Lele, Kyurem, and Special variants of Aegislash, all while remaining offensively adept itself. Nevertheless, Iron Treads also had to drop alongside the big gun Excadrill, and will be unlikely to claim the offensive advantage over it due to crucially lacking Swords Dance. That said, having Ice Spinner for the ever-present Defog Gliscor as a Stealth Rocker could prove enough to separate it in this category.


Tyranitar:



Notable Movesets
:choice band: Choice Band :choice band:, :leftovers: Defensive Stealth Rock :chople berry:, :assault vest: Assault Vest :assault vest:


The king (of the monsters?) is back, and arguably in a better time than ever. Tyranitar is looking to be a really strong and versatile force in this metagame. Being able to easily run a slew of great sets to find its way onto a wide variety of team structures; be it a simple Choice Band set for more immediate power against bulk, a nice Specially Defensive Stealth Rocker centered around Sand that can lay hazards and focus more on its roles against the plethora of Psychics in the tier, like Alakazam and the Lati twins, or even an Assault Vest variant to act as a nice mesh between the two in offensive regards. Beyond this, its access to Pursuit along with its typing and bulk provides the tier with a very much appreciated role as the only other Pursuit trapper available aside from Weavile, separating itself from the latter through its ability to directly switch into and remove Blacephalon and Nihilego, while also potentially being able to do the same against other offensive monsters such as Kyurem and Charizard-Y lacking Focus Blast.


Tyranitar-Mega:



Notable Movesets
:tr98: Dragon Dance :tr98:, :hard stone: Offensive Stealth Rock :hard stone:


The past generation was unfortunate to have been unable to live with its biggest failure, and it all brings it back to this. M-Tyranitar looks to be quite the offensive threat if the following is to be any proper indicator of what's to come, possessing some of the most ludicrous bulk to ever be allowed for a sweeper of its own league under Sand, along with the claims to back it up, such as being able survive the likes of Scarf Zamzenta's Close Combat under screens after hazards. It's likely that the new Tera mechanics (turns out it wasn't banned after the recount) will at least help to keep M-Tyranitar in check early on, as certain revenge killers such as Banded Rillaboom may have it easier when it comes to revenge killing it with STAB moves should they continue to have their place here, while defensive Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Tangrowth may also be able to just get by with defensive Tera-types to help resist a would-be super effective attack, thus avoiding the 2HKO from it in a pinch.


Excadrill:



Notable Movesets
:normalium z: Sand Rush :steelium z:, :leftovers: Mold Breaker + Swords Dance :leftovers:, :focus sash: Suicide Lead :focus sash:


Excadrill, despite not having gotten too many useful moves over the past two generations, did gain a significant buff to Rapid Spin, having the +1 boost to speed means that Excadrill now has the potential to find use as a sweeper outside of Sand teams. This, alongside it retaining the use of Z-Moves as a new drop, comes together to form the moment of painting Excadrill in its prime, especially as it can also fully contribute as an alternative suicide lead for HO teams against the prominence of M-Sableye, with no Helmet Lando-T or Corviknight to stop it unlike in OU. Despite this however, the prominence of physically defensive Pokemon such as opposing Hipppowdon, Slowbro, Buzzwole, and Skarmory, all might be a bit too much for Sand Rush Excadrill to reliably break teams at the moment, though a Sand team's ability to extract value from such a reliable spinner and potent speed control option that when compared to the previous abuser, Dracozolt, should ensure that it retains a form of usefulness and consistency in this type of situation.


Ditto:



Notable Movesets
:choice scarf: Choice Scarf :choice scarf:


Ditto finally dropped into the lower tiers after its brief stint in OU from the last shift. The continued flux of offensive sweepers and playstyles will likely suffice to give it an offensive niche, although this too could potentially drop off over more reliable options available should such an encompassing demand ever fail to persist moving forward.
 
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Niadev

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The Greninja and Battle Bond Greninja situation is currently being discussed by higher ups, hopefully we'll have an update soon. As for the meanwhile, on PS Torrent/Protean Greninja is legal but not Battle Bond, so we'll go with that until a decision is made.

Also, Tera suspect voting was extended to tomorrow so we'll have to wait and see on that front.
 

Runo

Blehhhhhoooooouughhh.....
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1672677478948.png

MELM IS GONE LET'S GOOOOOOOOO!!!
Broken ass mofo deserved a BAN, not some silly rise to OU. When the inevitable Trick Room hype dies down, what do you think is gonna happen to Mr. Double Iron Bash? It is going to drop back down to UU and terrorize us once again. The very second it drops, just quickban it. I don't wanna see this scum in UU ever again. Lupla already explained it pretty well in this post, so instead I'm going to talk about a mon that has been overlooked during the Melm meta.
the-wall-aggron.gif

IT'S AGGRON TIME BABY WOOOOOO!!!!!
With Melmetal gone, this mon is no longer outclassed so now it can fill much of what Melm did defensively as a powerful tank.
:sv/Aggron-Mega:
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake / Fire Punch
- Toxic / Fire Punch
The standard set from SMUU looks really good here. Allowing for archetypes like Rain to keep all of the defensive utility melm provided IN ADDITION to being a stealth rocker, so now mons like Swampert-Mega Seismitoad no longer need to run rocks and can affordably run much needed coverage like Power Whip. Outside of rain, it also gives teams a powerful new check to Tapu Lele, Gardevoir-Mega, Mawile-Mega, and more. Mega Aggron looks like a solid replacement to Melmetal and I hope that the community will consider using it on their builds as an alternative. And hey if you don't like the fact that MAggron takes up a Mega Slot, there's always :Registeel: Regishit.

This is the team I've been using Mega Aggron on, and it does its job really well.
:Politoed::seismitoad::Kingdra::Aggron-Mega::Latias::Manaphy:
(click on icons for paste)
This team is also a nice opportunity to showcase how Rain is still fairly strong despite losing a lot of what made it viable. Rain still has a lot of strong breakers to work with such as Kingdra, Barraskewda, Floatzel, and Broken Manaphy. The overall decentralization of Rain paves the way for new breakers to join the fray, such as Seismitoad, Gyarados, or Drednaw. These are just one of many options Rain has in the coming days and shows that Rain still has life left.​
 
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dhelmise

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The Greninja and Battle Bond Greninja situation is currently being discussed by higher ups, hopefully we'll have an update soon. As for the meanwhile, on PS Torrent/Protean Greninja is legal but not Battle Bond, so we'll go with that until a decision is made.

Also, Tera suspect voting was extended to tomorrow so we'll have to wait and see on that front.
Update on this, Battle Bond Greninja will be tiered alongside Torrent/Protean Greninja now, meaning Greninja is fully OU.
 

Niadev

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NatDex UU Stage 1: Strange Days Ahead​

The council has officially conducted its first vote. As a result, Annihilape, Espathra, Mega Charizard X, Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, and Zamazenta are all banned from National Dex UU effective immediately.

Annihilape - #979 - Serebii.net Pokédex
Espathra - #956 - Serebii.net Pokédex




:sv/annihilape: Annihilape
Annihilape might not seem like a very threatening Pokemon from the get-go with its average attacking stats in a tier filled with much greater physical forces than it. However, one notable and crucial factor stands out: Rage Fist, a move that can very easily allow Annilhape to snowball out of control when attacked repeatedly, which has since given it the opportunity to rain fire with a nearly unstoppable Specially Defensive Bulk Up set utilizing Drain Punch and Taunt, easily setting up on the likes of defensive Pokemon such as Skarmory and Ting-Lu attempting to force status, while being similarly difficult to break through with common offensive Pokemon thanks to its great natural bulk, lack of weaknesses further compounded by the ability to abuse defensive Terastallization types to escape common type weakness (notably when using Water), and perfect neutral coverage between its boosted Ghost + Fighting STAB. Couple this with other more recent adaptations, such as Tera Steel over Water to turn the tables on potential would-be stops like Specs Kyurem’s Freeze Dry and Meowscarada’s Flower Trick, or Chesto Berry + Rest for an instant healing option against more aggressive builds, and Annilihape was simply too much of a teambuilding restriction to be worth keeping around, thus being quickbanned.

:sv/espathra: Espathra
With a set of Max Defense Spread with Calm Mind/Protect/Dazzling Gleam/Stored Power and Tera Fairy, handling Espathra was virtually impossible. Speed Boost not only let it quickly outspeed the entire offensive meta but boosted the power of Stored Power on top of Calm Mind. After one Protect and two CMs, Stored Power already reaches a base power of 160 with a +2 in special attack (+3 speed and 2 CMs = 20 + (7 * 20) = 160).

Due to becoming pure Fairy and the recovery offered by boosted STAB Dazzling Gleam, it was extremely difficult to kill without a strong physical steel-type move (the last relevant Pokemon capable of this, Melmetal, also rose last shift, and Mega Mawile never had the space for it either), and combined with its rapidly powered up Stored Power was able to snowball incredibly quickly to tear teams to shreds without status. Insufficiently strong steel moves would also trigger a likely Weakness Policy, propelling Stored Power even faster. As if that wasn’t enough, it could potentially even run Substitute over Protect to inconvenience checks even more.

Throw screens into the mix, making Scizor’s Bullet Punch incapable of doing much more than activate Weakness Policy, and nothing short of landing a Toxic on it before it accumulated too many boosts and/or got Substitute up could stop it reliably, and even then was likely to take quite a few Pokemon with it. Paralysis didn’t even inconvenience it all that much due to Speed Boost allowing it to boost past the speed drop. For these reasons, Espathra has been quickbanned.

:sv/charizard-mega-x: Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard X has always been a threatening sweeper - the following generation has since been no exception for it. A solid typing, high-powered STABs with great neutral coverage further boosted by Tough Claws, a good base 100 Speed, and access to both Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, has not only made it a staple on hyper offense teams, but on bulky offense and balance structures as well.

Having little to no reliable defensive counterplay both before and after a boost, with even physically defensive Pokemon such as Slowbro and Hippowdon often being short of 2HKOed by a +1 Dragon Claw or Outrage respectively, despite being unable to KO back at most. While other options such as Roost have since also popped up in order to mitigate its issue with longevity, frequently punishing teams with weak scarfers like Kartana attempting to switch around it to make it faint from its own recoil, in addition to various supporting options from teammates like Healing Wish Jirachi and Clefable, or Terrains from Rillaboom and Tapu Fini to aid its sweeping capabilities and increase the amount of destruction it could cause in a match.

Added onto this, Mega Charizard-X is also neutral to Ice Shard after Mega Evolving, resistant to Grassy Glide and Bullet Punch, and has the resistances afforded by its typing to gauge setup opportunities on Pokemon like Rillaboom, Rotom-Heat, and Kartana, further enhancing its offensive capabilities in practice in spite of its limited opportunities on the field, even without taking into account all of the above. Because of this, it was judged unhealthy for the time it was in and therefore got quickbanned.

:sv/mawile-mega: Mega Mawile
Mega Mawile is an incredibly powerful wallbreaker that managed to set itself apart even in a meta with Tera Steel Melmetal by virtue of access to Swords Dance and Sucker Punch, enabling it to not only tear walls to pieces but potentially clean lategame at +2 once any bulky faster dark resists have been taken care of. For reference, +2 Sucker Punch OHKOs even somewhat physically bulky neutrals such as Kartana after very minimal chip damage.

In addition, the combination of Play Rough and Knock Off hits almost the entire meta for neutral, with +2 Knock Off doing incredible damage even to neutral Pokemon, and I don’t think I need to elaborate too much on what +2 Play Rough does to anything on the wrong end of it, 2HKOing even extremely bulky resists such as Amoonguss.

Even unboosted Play Rough is obscenely powerful, effortlessly 2HKOing every unresisted Pokemon short of incredibly physically defensive Pokemon like Dondozo, meaning it could run coverage on AoA sets for what few Pokemon could deal with Play Rough + Knock Off. Pretty much the only reliable defensive checks were Mega Venusaur, who could outspeed and threaten it with Earth Power, but lacks passive recovery and thus is easily worn down in the long-run due to Synthesis’s limitied PP, and Dondozo, who is passive and only has RestTalk for passive recovery.

Overall, it shouldn’t be too surprising that Mega Mawile has been quickbanned.

:sv/medicham-mega: Mega Medicham
Mega Medicham is in a fairly similar boat to Mega Mawile, but trades Swords Dance for a respectable base 100 speed tier, enabling it to outspeed almost the entire defensive metagame. Close Combat replaces High Jump Kick from earlier gens, making Mega Medicham far more reliable for a minimal drop in power and far less scared of ghost types or misses - and let me be clear, Close Combat still obliterates anything that does not resist it, chunking even certain resists.

In addition, it still has Zen Headbutt, which still does a ton to anything that doesn’t resist it, as well as a surprisingly wide range of coverage, such as Ice Punch for Mega Latias, Thunder Punch for Slowbro, and even the choice to run Fire Punch for Aegislash in certain cases. Additionally, Mega Medicham also got access to Trailblaze this gen, allowing it to take on a sweeper role, as well as preventing revenge killing attempts from the likes of Scarf Tapu Lele, Weavile, and Alakazam. It could also choose to run Fake Out to more safely mega evolve and better handle faster offensive Pokemon by forcing chip damage, making it not useless against highly offensive teams.

This incredible wallbreaking prowess and loss of multiple downsides from the previous gen have merited its quickban from NatDex UU.

:sv/zamazenta: Zamazenta
Zamazenta was an utter menace offensively, as to be seen by it being the first box cover legendary to have ever dropped into a UU tier. Sporting a great base 138 Speed stat, a benchmark that has since defined the offensive metagame around it, and many great neutral coverage options to go along with its superb natural bulk and Dauntless Shield ability, preventing even the few physically offensive revenge killing options from being able to force it out on the first turn it was in, like with Mega Aerodactyl.

The brute strength of Choice Band sets utilizing Terastallization on its Fighting STAB was ultimately a subject of controversy within its own realm of absurdity in this metagame, easily 2HKOing its way through the plethora of would-be defensive checks in the tier, many of which resisted the move to begin with. The likes of Tapu Fini, Clefable, and even Mega Latias were all just a few of the examples commonly blown away by it on the switch or two, while others that weren’t such as physically defensive Aegislash and Galarian Slowking could easily be beaten by a few simple, easy-to-fit adaptations within the tier, be it an offensive Howl set featuring Tera Dark to beat the former two, or by using FuturePort support from Slowbro and Galarian Slowking itself to help break past Buzzwole and Mega Venusaur, where Zamazenta remained arguably the best and most prominent abuser behind this mechanic. All in all, Zamazenta was simply too overbearing for the tier from a conceptual standpoint, and was quickbanned.



The full voting list can be seen here:



AnnihilapeCharizard-Mega-XEspathraGyaradosKartanaLatias-MegaManaphyMawile-MegaMedicham-MegaRillaboomTapu LeleVictiniZamazenta
ArishemQuickbanAbstainAbstainDo Not BanSuspectDo Not BanSuspectSuspectabstainDo Not BanDo Not BanSuspectQuickban
sanguineQuickbanQuickbanQuickbanSuspectSuspectDo Not BanSuspectQuickbanQuickbanDo Not BanQuickbanSuspectQuickban
luplaQuickbanQuickbanQuickbanSuspectSuspectDo Not BanSuspectAbstainQuickbanSuspect (5)SuspectSuspectQuickban
MudkipBeansQuickbanabstainQuickbanNo actionQuickbanDo Not BanDo Not BanQuickbanQuickbanDo Not BanNo actionSuspectQuickban
N_MareanieQuickbanSuspectQuickbanno actionSuspectDo Not BanSuspectQuickbanQuickbanSuspectQuickbanSuspectQuickban
NiadevQuickbanQuickbanQuickbanSuspectSuspectDo Not BanSuspectQuickbanQuickbanDo Not BanSuspectSuspectQuickban
PuboQuickbanQuickbanQuickbanSuspectSuspectDo Not BanSuspectQuickbanQuickbanDo Not BanSuspectSuspectQuickban
RyujiQuickbanQuickbanQuickbanSuspectSuspectAbstainDo Not BanQuickbanQuickbanDo Not BanQuickbanSuspectQuickban
OutcomeQuickbanQuickbanQuickbanSuspectSuspectDo Not BanSuspectQuickbanQuickbanDo Not BanSuspectSuspectQuickban

(EDIT: to clarify, because of the number of Suspect outcomes (no, we are not suspecting multiple things simultaneously) and the fact we are likely to have more quickbans, 'Suspect' will mean 'keep an eye on it' for the time being until such a time as there are less 'Suspect' outcomes)

In addition to the above, several other Pokemon were also brought up for moderate discussion within council lines, and thus the following watchlist will remain as follows:

:aegislash: Aegislash
:gyarados: Gyarados
:kartana: Kartana
:kyurem: Kyurem
:manaphy: Manaphy
:latias-mega: Mega Latias
:rillaboom: Rillaboom
:tapu lele: Tapu Lele
:thundurus: Thundurus
:victini: Victini
:weavile: Weavile



Tagging Kris to implement this. Thanks.

Trying posting it here and in its own thread for traction, going to see if it works better this way or if it's just unnecessary
 
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The council has officially conducted its first vote. As a result, Annihilape, Espathra, Mega Charizard X, Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, and Zamazenta are all banned from National Dex UU effective immediately.
Thank god, some of these mons were incredibly irritating to deal with on such a constant basis. Between the bans from tiering shifts and now this I can't say I really have too many complaints about the tier. In terms of the watchlist I pretty much agree with most things there other than Manaphy and Aegislash (I don't think either are overly prevalent or that hard to deal with in the current meta at all) so it looks to me like NDUU is going in a good direction and I can't wait to see how the tier develops :)
 

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