From Untiereds to Ubers

[Champion Leon]

Wait hang on Pyukumuku already won whoops

Uhh

I’ll resub Wormadam-Grass instead I guess. Everyone go change your votes and let’s all never mention the fact that we collectively forgot that I won once (I didn’t think fourth place counted as a win and I never checked the OP to be proven wrong lmao)

I changed my vote for yours. Also, don’t forget to vote as well! ;)

4th Place can win if it ties with others ;)

I am rooting for it, and I know I mentioned it’s a good pick last slate!

Here is a congrats to you!

 

[anaconja]

BIG VR OVERHAUL

wailord -> a-
this mon counters pdon but only checks ndm/luc-mega if rocks arent up, its like an arc-water that trades more physical bulk for less support options
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wailord: 194-228 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- 45.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wailord: 387-456 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

slaking -> b
idk how this mon got so high, sure it has high stats but it also has a bad offensive typing and no boosting moves/abilities so its just a weird physical tank with severe 4mss.

lumineon -> a-
not really sure what it does but unique typing and good movepool makes it pretty interesting

persian -> b-
this thing sucks lol

castform -> b
the only set i could see this having a niche in would be as a double-hazard suicide lead which makes it okay but definitely not deserving of a+

torterra -> b
essentially a more powerful arc-ground but slow as hell without the good defensive typing of ndm, and i dont know when grass stab will be useful to me

rotom-fan -> b-
decent bulk let down by no recovery, no guard hurricane + thunder is good but not amazing, basically its only niche is setting static signal and then probably dying

solrock -> b
wow this beats pdon. the problem is that it gets rekt by everything else (gengar-mega, ndm, ogre, yveltal, etc.). its passivity doesn't help it either.

ariados -> a-
fast sticky web setter, but not so good to put it in a rank

corsola -> b+ or b
same boat as castform, but it has protean. this can be used for mind games but not sure how effective that would be.

noctowl -> b-
bro what does this do, 80 bp moves off of 105 spa ain't doing shit

stunfisk -> b+
the defensive typing is extremely crunchy but the abilities/moves are okay so w/e

ursaring -> a- or b+
in a pretty offensive meta having low speed as a wallbreaker kinda sucks. dunno how good tr is though.

carnivine -> a-
janky revenge killer, but i feel like its initial power is pretty underwhelming

wishiwashi -> b
the ability is cool and all but kyogre-primal kinda craps on its viability

turtonator -> b
have no idea what this does except be a bad physical tank

farfetch'd -> a-
probably has trouble with naturally bulky mons like salamence-mega and zygod, also easily revengeable

simisage -> a-
so its like a lucario-mega but crunchy. ok.

zebstrike -> b+
good anti-offense mon but against bulkier teams it just kinda fails.

mr mime -> b
wonder room setter?? and also some bouncer that needs wish + protect to recover?? thats wack and anything but a- rank

wigglytuff -> a
yo this is a fairyceus but fat as shit and has magic guard/thicc fat. probably worth dropping wow over, though its also pretty slow so fairyceus still has some merit somewhere.

pachirisu -> b-
ever heard of dual screens in ubers? me neither

cherrim -> c
needs too much support and then you get rekt by pdon switching out or pogre switching in, plus 100 atk at +1 isnt even that good anyway

sunflora -> b+
failing to hit the large amount of dragons in the tier is a nogo from me

muk -> b+
sure it beats xerneas and cm arceus and marshadow, but that's about it. plus it has less support options and bulk. it does free up an arceus slot though.

ledian -> c
no idea what this does

maractus -> c+
slow, weak, bad typing, only bright side is dual spikes which isnt even that good anyway

lunatone -> c+
this like only beats ultra necrozma and sets rocks and does 0 else

rapidash -> b-
its fast and all but it has too low initial power and no easy way to boost due to its bad bulk

magcargo -> c+
theres no going around it, fire/rock sucks. use pdon.

toucannon -> a-
with the influx of grass and ground types, toucannon's typing becomes very useful

relicanth -> c
defensive barrier sucks since you can only use it for 3 turns

watchog -> a-
it's a faster and more offensive yveltal

dusknoir -> b-
it's a much slower and less versatile marshadow basically

electivire -> b+
same boat as zebstrika

walrein -> b-
regice -> b
walrein is less versatile regice

tropius -> b+
this mon is lowkey mega dumb with its heal bell attack and burn/seed shit

bastiodon -> a-
why the FUCK is bastiodon in b- dude its the highest bulk mon AND it has recovery

rampardos -> b+
rock/fighting is good and rampardos is fast and it gets coverage why is this in b-

butterfree -> b
its fast lele with qd wtf

lapras -> c-
lol this mon sucks

huntail -> b
its smash protean/adapt whats this doing in c

also in

 

[G-Luke]

How are there no Ubers on the viability rankings of an Ubers based metagame

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I could be wrong, but the rankings are just for the Untiered mons for now.

 

[G-Luke]

Then whats is the point of ranking them then? The viability rankibgs reflect how good they are in the meta, and Ubers exist in the meta. So ignoring ubers not only defeats the purpose of the ranking, but probably makes them wildly inaccurate too.

 

[alephgalactus]

737373elj Chimecho
Fragmented Arbok
SteelixPrismGX Shiftry
OM! Delcatty
Heavyweapons Mann Golem-Alola
alephgalactus Pyukumuku Wormadam-Plant

 

[Champion Leon]

Then whats is the point of ranking them then? The viability rankibgs reflect how good they are in the meta, and Ubers exist in the meta. So ignoring ubers not only defeats the purpose of the ranking, but probably makes them wildly inaccurate too.

I just wanted to see where the original Pokemon we created fall amongst each other

If you check the 1st page, I listed them both separately. But I guess due to time remaining, we can skip phase 1 of my ranking plan mentioned on the previous page, and just consider them all on the same list.

EDIT-

I’ll give some more time for everyone to post their thoughts on the original Ubers as well, since I am sure some must have fallen / risen due to our creations.

Also, I had believed Mr. Mime has Wish, when I created it bc I mentioned it in the post. I will add it to the post and Spreadsheet. Recovery is implemented as it was meant to be. Mr. Mime at 130 HP and 115 Def puts it at higher physical bulk than Arceus. Mr. Mime is no slouch.

With access to STAB Fairy moves, Nasty Plot, Barrier, Calm Mind, etc. Mr. Mime can set up and avoid Status thanks to Magic Bounce. What is not to love about it? Plus it has a naturally good movepool with status and SpA coverage.

Poison-types are also vulnerable to STAB Psychic moves, so it’s able to use Fairy for Darks that are immune to Psychic and Psychic for Poison-types.

It’s not perfect, but it can definitely hold its own. Wonder Room undermines stuff like Chansey, and other one-sided Defensive foes, so it’s not a random ability, it can put in the work. With Magic Bounce it can be a good switch in, with Soundproof and Perish Song it can force out anything.

 

[Champion Leon]

S tier

S+


S





S-

A tier

A+












A



<—Arceus
<— Arceus-Fairy














A-

<—Arceus-Dark

B tier

B+
<—Arceus-Water














B
<—Arceus-Ground

<—Arceus-Flying





<—Arceus-Poison



















B-

/
<—Arceus-Grass

C tier

C+










<— Arceus-Electric



C


<— Arceus-Rock





<— Arceus-Steel



C-

<—Arceus-Dragon
<—Arceus-Ghost

New list created by 737373elj and sent by かたわれ時

This includes all Ubers and fUtU Winning Pokemon Slates.

I will try and compare this list to Anaconja and any other suggestions made later this week. Currently it is 5:30 AM PST, so it’s too early to handle this right now.

Pleass recognize the efforts being made to follow requests: Consolidation of both lists for VR with icons, and open dialogue in the first place.

I will work on this later this week when I am more available, rather than when I need to prepare for work.

 

[alephgalactus]

S tier

S+


S





S-

A tier

A+












A



<—Arceus
<— Arceus-Fairy














A-

<—Arceus-Dark

B tier

B+
<—Arceus-Water














B
<—Arceus-Ground

<—Arceus-Flying





<—Arceus-Poison



















B-

/
<—Arceus-Grass

C tier

C+










<— Arceus-Electric



C


<— Arceus-Rock





<— Arceus-Steel



C-

<—Arceus-Dragon
<—Arceus-Ghost

New list created by 737373elj and sent by かたわれ時

This includes all Ubers and fUtU Winning Pokemon Slates.

I will try and compare this list to Anaconja and any other suggestions made later this week. Currently it is 5:30 AM PST, so it’s too early to handle this right now.

Pleass recognize the efforts being made to follow requests: Consolidation of both lists for VR with icons, and open dialogue in the first place.

I will work on this later this week when I am more available, rather than when I need to prepare for work.

It tickles me to see PDon and Luvdisc in the same viability tier.

 

[G-Luke]

It tickles me to see PDon and Luvdisc in the same viability tier.

Especially since it makes no sense

 

[anaconja]

S tier

S+


S





S-

A tier

A+












A



<—Arceus
<— Arceus-Fairy














A-

<—Arceus-Dark

B tier

B+
<—Arceus-Water














B
<—Arceus-Ground

<—Arceus-Flying





<—Arceus-Poison



















B-

/
<—Arceus-Grass

C tier

C+










<— Arceus-Electric



C


<— Arceus-Rock





<— Arceus-Steel



C-

<—Arceus-Dragon
<—Arceus-Ghost

New list created by 737373elj and sent by かたわれ時

This includes all Ubers and fUtU Winning Pokemon Slates.

I will try and compare this list to Anaconja and any other suggestions made later this week. Currently it is 5:30 AM PST, so it’s too early to handle this right now.

Pleass recognize the efforts being made to follow requests: Consolidation of both lists for VR with icons, and open dialogue in the first place.

I will work on this later this week when I am more available, rather than when I need to prepare for work.

man i have to say, this is worse than the first, there is no possible way marshadow just jumps to s+ and pdon drops to a

here's what my idea of the vr would look like
s: primal groudon, ndm, mega gengar, yveltal
a+: unecro, zygod, marshadow
a: arceus-ground, xerneas, megamence, pogre, ho-oh, bastiodon, silvally-normal
a-: waterceus, fairyceus, darkceus, mmy, lunala, ferrothorn, normalceus, silvally-fairy, silvally-dark, wigglytuff, ursaring, wailord, swanna, granbull
b+: magearna, deo-a, gira-o, smeargle, toxapex, farfetch'd, simisage, zebstrika, electivire, rampardos, ariados, lumineon, watchog, toucannon, lycanroc-midnight, luvdisc, heatmor, golem, bouffalant, parasect
b: naganadel, skarmory, flyingceus, blissey, ditto, giratina, rayquaza, slaking, torterra, solrock, pyukumuku, muk, tropius, huntail, carnivine, regice, unfezant, simisear, delibird, gourgeist, gogoat, shedinja
b-: celesteela, deo-s, lugia, mega diancie, palkia, tyranitar, scizor-mega, corsola, butterfree, stunfisk, sunflora, wishiwashi, dusknoir, walrein, silvally-flying, silvally-water, regigigas, masquerain, drifblim, kecleon, ninjask, poliwrath, politoed, golduck, sudowoodo
c+: klefki, mega lucario, mega sableye, chansey, dialga, dugtrio, greninja, megablaze, mmx, mgyara, mbro, tapu lele, persian, castform, noctowl, mr mime, lunatone, relicanth, silvally-poison, dunsparce, rapidash, swalot
c: poisonceus, muk-alola, dragonceus, rockceus, ndw, excadrill, kyu-w, megakang, megasaur, mewtwo, reshiram, ribombee, skymin, wobbuffet, rotom-fan, magcargo, simipour
c-: aegislash, steelceus, darkrai, kyogre, lando-i, latias-mega, megalop, pheromosa, tapu koko, zekrom, pachirisu, silvally-electric, silvally-ghost, turtonator, rotom-fan
d: ghostceus, electriceus, bugceus, fightingceus, fireceus, iceceus, psychiceus, blaziken, deoxys, deo-d, genesect, groudon, megagross, solgaleo, persian, cherrim, lapras, ledian, maractus, silvally-bug, silvally-dragon, silvally-fighting, silvally-fire, silvally-ice, silvally-psychic, silvally-rock, silvally-steel, spinda, vespiquen

 

[Stealthbomber16]

As the guy who submitted Maractus, why the hell is it in the same tier as pdon

 

[Fragmented]

i'd rank stuff like silvally/arceus steel higher on the merit of being able to check the influx of grass types and quiver dancers

arceus-water and ground probs gonna take a hit because of the grass types as well as minor competition from swanna and wailord and whatever p-don checks there are now

dont think mega gengar should be s as most of the things introduced can whack it around with coverage, and mega gengar still suffers from frailty and having to mega before being able to do anything

 

[Fragmented]

Viability Rankings by Anaconja, but put into a more visually appealing format. OM! thoughts?

S

Mega Gengar
Primal Groudon
Necrozma Dusk-Mane
Yveltal

A+

Marshadow
Ultra Necrozma
Zygarde-Complete

A

Arceus-Ground
Bastiodon
Ho-oh
Primal Kyogre
Mega Salamence
Silvally-Normal
Xerneas

A-

Arceus-Dark
Arceus-Fairy
Arceus-Normal
Arceus-Water
Ferrothorn
Granbull
Lunala
Mega Mewtwo Y
Silvally-Dark
Silvally-Fairy
Swanna
Ursaring
Wailord
Wigglytuff

B+

Ariados
Bouffalant
Cloyster
Deoxys-Attack
Electivire
Farfetch'd
Giratina-Origin
Golem
Heatmor
Lumineon
Luvdisc
Lycanroc-Midnight
Magearna
Parrasect
Rampardos
Simisage
Smeargle
Toucannon
Toxapex
Watchog
Zebstrika

B

Arceus-Flying
Blissey
Carnivine
Delibird
Ditto
Giratina
Gogoat
Gourgeist
Huntail
Muk
Naganadel
Pyukumuku
Rayquaza
Regice
Shedinja
Simisear
Skarmory
Slaking
Solrock
Torterra
Tropius
Unfezant

B-

Butterfree
Celesteela
Corsola
Deoxys-Speed
Mega Diancie
Drifblim
Dusknoir
Golduck
/ Gothitelle/Gothorita
Kecleon
Lugia
Masquerain
Ninjask
Palkia
Politoed
Poliwrath
Regigigas
Mega Scizor
Silvally-Flying
Silvally-Water
Stunfisk
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Tyranitar
Walrein
Wishiwashi

C+

Mega Blaziken
Castform
Chansey
Dialga
Dugtrio
Dunsparce
Greninja
Mega Gyarados
Klefki
Mega Lucario
Lunatone
Mega Mewtwo X
Mr Mime
Noctowl
Persian
Rapidash
Relicanth
Mega Sableye
Silvally-Poison
Mega Slowbro
Swalot
Tapu Lele

C

Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Grass
Arceus-Poison
Arceus-Rock
Excadrill
Mega Kangaskhan
Kyurem-White
Magcargo
Mewtwo
Muk-Alola
Necrozma Dawn-Wings
Reshiram
Ribombee
Rotom-Fan
Shaymin-Sky
Simipour
Mega Venusaur
Wobbuffet

C-

Aegislash
Arceus-Steel
Darkrai
Kyogre
Landorus
Mega Latias
Mega Lopunny
Pachirisu
Pheromosa
Silvally-Electric
Silvally-Ghost
Tapu Koko
Turtonator
Zekrom

D

Arceus-Bug
Arceus-Electric
Arceus-Fighting
Arceus-Fire
Arceus-Ghost
Arceus-Ice
Arceus-Psychic
Blaziken
Cherrim
Deoxys
Deoxys-Defense
Genesect
Groudon
Lapras
Ledian
Maractus
Mega Metagross
Silvally-Bug
Silvally-Dragon
Silvally-Fighting
Silvally-Fire
Silvally-Grass
Silvally-Ice
Silvally-Psychic
Silvally-Rock
Silvally-Steel
Solgaleo
Spinda
Vespiquen

 

[G-Luke]

i'd rank stuff like silvally/arceus steel higher on the merit of being able to check the influx of grass types and quiver dancers

arceus-water and ground probs gonna take a hit because of the grass types as well as minor competition from swanna and wailord and whatever p-don checks there are now

dont think mega gengar should be s as most of the things introduced can whack it around with coverage, and mega gengar still suffers from frailty and having to mega before being able to do anything

Are these not almost 100% outclassed by Necrozma-Dusk Mane? Arceus-Steel doesn't run defensive sets in Ubers, and Silvally is less defensive Arceus. Besides, what influence of Grass types? Like I can name 3, maybe four decent Grass type additions to the tier, and Simisage is the only one that can be argued to be very impactful. And it beats Steel types other than Necrozma DM and Magearna 1v1 anyways, so those mons should be lowered if anything. I think NormalCeus could drop down to B rank too, cuz more mons beat it and it competes with Silvally Normal.

 

[Champion Leon]

Viability Rankings by Anaconja, but put into a more visually appealing format. OM! thoughts?

S

A+

A

A-

B+

:farfetch

B

B-

/

C+

C

C-

D

Thanks I can copy and paste this later.

I just arrived home at 8 PM PST, and now I am going to have dinner.

I’ll post this later as the new official list.

Anaconja since you liked the post, I will assume you approve? I think this can be a final draft for the time being, as we can adjust new slate winners 13 and eventually 14 as well.

Also I would like to announce for Slate 14, I will allow a BST up to 700, so people can feel their submissions are able to better match up to Ubers.

If you feel 700 is too much, I can scale it down to 675, but overall, we need viability, I am intaking feedback for more BST maximum.

 

[earl]

Thanks I can copy and paste this later.

I just arrived home at 8 PM PST, and now I am going to have dinner.

I’ll post this later as the new official list.

Anaconja since you liked the post, I will assume you approve? I think this can be a final draft for the time being, as we can adjust new slate winners 13 and eventually 14 as well.

Also I would like to announce for Slate 14, I will allow a BST up to 700, so people can feel their submissions are able to better match up to Ubers.

If you feel 700 is too much, I can scale it down to 675, but overall, we need viability, I am intaking feedback for more BST maximum.

I wouldn't worry about the limit being too high- it should fall to the voters to determine what submissions would work for the mod, not an artificial BST limit (within reason, of course)

 

[Champion Leon]

I wouldn't worry about the limit being too high- it should fall to the voters to determine what submissions would work for the mod, not an artificial BST limit (within reason, of course)

My point is to keep it within reason. For example someone might say, uh oh these guys don’t even need a Mega to have these BST.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Should we have a buffing slate for the more UP Untiereds?

 

[Champion Leon]

Should we have a buffing slate for the more UP Untiereds?

Ya, I think the only way to do this is Slate 14, we can have a nomination where you can submit a new Pokemon from the Untiered list, AND you can nominate Pokemon to have a buff.

I’ll have 2 voting categories-

A. Vote for your next new favorite fUtU mon from the Untiered list.
B. Vote to buff your favorite previous winner, within reason. (I.e. Let’s not give Shedinja Sturdy again)
I will allow Scoopapa to weigh in how much he is willing to code in buffs.

Afterall, I won’t let him have to code all 70+ Pokemon, so to me a maximum of 3 new Pokemon and 7 old Pokemon might be fair so he has time to code in 10 Pokemon and not feel overwhelmed.

Scoopapa let me know your thoughts on the maximum amount of Pokemon you want to have to deal with for Slate 14.
———————
Scoopapa replies to my inquiry and mentioned that he is willing to implement up to a total of 10 new Pokemon next slate!
———————
If we have a tie where there is more than 10 Pokemon who get the max number of votes, then we can just let Scoopapa decide since ultimately he will need to code it in, as well as input from myself since I am Leader.

 

[Scoopapa]

Since I'm behind on coding please keep the customs to clones of existing things this time around, much appreciated.

 

[Champion Leon]

Since I'm behind on coding please keep the customs to clones of existing things this time around, much appreciated.

Yes, rule enforced.

Also, I will make another rule that for the 7 Pokemon that can be buffed, we only select Pokemon listed in B or lower (not B+), so we can really help the Pokemon that needs it most. Afterall, we don’t need to help A, or B+ because they are viable enough as is.

Use Fragmented ‘s list above to view B, B-, C+, C, C-, D.

Also, due to how much some of these need a buff, like those in D, I am removing any flavor/lore expectations, as it will be too limiting for us when they may need all the help they can get. So yes, a Fire type can have Ice Beam.

 

[かたわれ時]

Elj says he regrets completing it so hastily. Especially when he looks at all these negative comments.
OM! Should he just rebuild the rankings or are you okay with anaconja’s?

Edit: OM I think we shouldn’t make the BST limit any higher than Slaking’s BST. After all, isn’t buffing the Pokemon supposed to come from unorthodox strategies that can actually work? Try 625. (This is also a reason why so many Pokemon are ranked so far down on the VR: they don’t use good enough strategies to be able to compete with true-blue Uber, and their stats prevent them from outclassing Ubers or even work well.)
But if you still want the mons to be buffed, I won’t stand in your way (not that I could), but remember that giving Pokemon crazy stats was what we strived to keep away from, an goes against the original reasoning of fUtU.

 

[Champion Leon]

Elj says he regrets completing it so hastily. Especially when he looks at all these negative comments.
OM! Should he just rebuild the rankings or are you okay with anaconja’s?

Edit: OM I think we shouldn’t make the BST limit any higher than Slaking’s BST. After all, isn’t buffing the Pokemon supposed to come from unorthodox strategies that can actually work? Try 625. (This is also a reason why so many Pokemon are ranked so far down on the VR: they don’t use good enough strategies to be able to compete with true-blue Uber, and their stats prevent them from outclassing Ubers or even work well.)
But if you still want the mons to be buffed, I won’t stand in your way (not that I could), but remember that giving Pokemon crazy stats was what we strived to keep away from, an goes against the original reasoning of fUtU.

I agree and understand, however when we see stuff ranked in the D rank, it becomes clear that they need more support.

Also, I completely understand how Elj used the rankings in a manner based on the descriptions, and quite frankly it’s all a guessing game until we actually play and see the metagame for what it is in the tournament.

While the list is imperfect, it got the topic back on track and finally gave a basis for us to consider what should move up and down, rather than doing it from scratch.

As the current leader, and having not seen Jamis361 post in this thread, I will effectively change the rule on keeping the stats low and relying on strategy.

Afterall, we are not able to make enough Pokemon unique when we have over new 70 Pokemon plus the original Ubers, so with similar typing, stats (Walrein, Regice) and role, we have to focus on what works.

I don’t think going over 600 is an issue as long as we don’t min max. While 700 may be high, I think we could get away with 675, bc that is certainly enough to make our Pokemon competitive with Ubers. Afterall, no one will use our creations if they are purely, or even mostly (most of the time) outclassed by the originals, and it’s harder to balance things if they end up having to run out of BST points available.

For now I will keep the new 700 BST limit for this slate (people can edit until TOMORROW, HALLOWEEN AT 5:30 PM PST) to allow buffing their current nominations before voting closes.

This new 700 BST will also be used for the old Winner Buffs and new Pokemon fUtU ideas in Slate 14. Overall, the aim is trying to save the concept with a more realistic approach.

On a side note, I noticed Jerry got banned as well.

——————

On a positive note:

Please sign up for the Tournament on Nov 9.

Scoopapa is working very hard to code this Metagame, and it would a shame to not try it out in the biggest Playtesting we may have for this Gen 7.

So, I want everyone to save the date, sign up, and participate!

1. OM! PST
2. 737373elj
3. Scoopapa
4. かたわれ時
5. Stealthbomber16 CST
6. The Cruelest EST
7. Anaconja PST
8.
Etc.

If I missed your name, let me know.

When signing up, please provide your timezone.

 

[Stealthbomber16]

Alright let’s go

in