Implemented Evasion (Abilities) in SS OU [DONE]

[Finchinator]

Prior thread here

The OU council has received messages about Sand Veil and other evasion related topics this generation. After an uptick in these discussions, the OU council elected to include Sand Veil and Snow Cloak in our most recent tiering survey. The results were as followed:

54.1% of the general public believes action should be taken on Sand Veil and Snow Cloak and 56.94% of the qualified playerbase believes action should be taken on Sand Veil and Snow Cloak.

This majority made it clear that we had to take action on the topics of Sand Veil and Snow Cloak. While it is true that Sand Veil is not very common in SS OU and Snow Cloak is largely in the discussion due to association with Sand Veil, rather than its own practical uses, one can argue that both of these abilities are uncompetitive. Sand Veil (and Snow Cloak) have been banned in prior generations and evasion inducing elements of the game have been filtered out of competitive formats many times. Garchomp is the primary abuser of Sand Veil in the metagame when this strategy is employed, specifically attempting to sweep teams with increased evasion under Sand and Substitute. While this is a viable strategy, it is not the most common way to use Garchomp right now.

There are also other elements of the game such as Brightpowder, which has received mentions in tiering surveys and messages to councilmen. This item can be grouped with the topic of evasion, but would need discussion and support in order for action to be taken (much like anything else).

The SS OU council would like to open this thread to the SS OU playerbase to discuss their beliefs on the tiering of Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and other evasion related elements in this thread. We are hoping to avoid a fully-fledged suspect on this matter and would like to wrap it up by the end of the year at the latest, but our minds are currently open and we encourage anyone with access that is invested in the metagame to leave their thoughts.

 

[Clone]

They should've always been a part of evasion clause as they align with it to a T. Ban them and Brightpowder and get rid of the cheese

 

[dex]

I also agree that evasion abilities and items should fall under the evasion clause. Gettem outta here

 

[ViZar]

Ban them. They add nothing to the games besides frustration and RNG. Bright Powder should be banned alongside them, since it pretty much does the same on a smaller scale but on more Pokemon

 

[ausma]

I've expressed this quite a bit, but I am 100% a proponent of tiering action being taken on Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, and I wouldn't be opposed to seeing action on BrightPowder either considering it fundamentally does the same thing. These points have been explored in great depth and I see no reason to repeat the points that have already been made numerous times far more articulately than I could.

To not just "yes-man" this post, a major counterpoint I saw brought up a few times in the SS OU metagame discussion thread was its sheer impracticality in comparison to King's Rock Cloyster. Having these abilities work means having weather active and only then do you have a shot at dodging a move. However, to me, this is a very moot point. The circumstances and consistency, frankly should not and do not matter when considering what the abilities/items ultimately do and how they bring potentially gamechanging RNG, which renders deliberate opportunity cost management and positioning completely irrelevant and can actively reward poor positioning and play. Banking turns on getting an evasion roll in your favor through abilities and items, no matter how practical this may be, goes against the goal of building a competitive landscape that values optimizing and emphasizing player control. Furthermore, these are mechanisms that have and have had very feasible and consistent tiering action taken upon them before, so there's no real slippery slope to be had here and is a net positive for optimizing competitiveness in the SS OU metagame. +1 on banning them.

 

[LBN]

I'd like to also kickstart adding Acupressure to this, even if its only really a Drapion only thing, it's still the only thing not here thats allowed and gives Evasion and should also fall under Evasion Clause. Sand veil should go, Snow Cloak should go, Bright Powder should go, and Accupressure should go.

 

[devin]

Prior thread here

The OU council has received messages about Sand Veil and other evasion related topics this generation. After an uptick in these discussions, the OU council elected to include Sand Veil and Snow Cloak in our most recent tiering survey. The results were as followed:

54.1% of the general public believes action should be taken on Sand Veil and Snow Cloak and 56.94% of the qualified playerbase believes action should be taken on Sand Veil and Snow Cloak.

This majority made it clear that we had to take action on the topics of Sand Veil and Snow Cloak. While it is true that Sand Veil is not very common in SS OU and Snow Cloak is largely in the discussion due to association with Sand Veil, rather than its own practical uses, one can argue that both of these abilities are uncompetitive. Sand Veil (and Snow Cloak) have been banned in prior generations and evasion inducing elements of the game have been filtered out of competitive formats many times. Garchomp is the primary abuser of Sand Veil in the metagame when this strategy is employed, specifically attempting to sweep teams with increased evasion under Sand and Substitute. While this is a viable strategy, it is not the most common way to use Garchomp right now.

There are also other elements of the game such as Brightpowder, which has received mentions in tiering surveys and messages to councilmen. This item can be grouped with the topic of evasion, but would need discussion and support in order for action to be taken (much like anything else).

The SS OU council would like to open this thread to the SS OU playerbase to discuss their beliefs on the tiering of Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and other evasion related elements in this thread. We are hoping to avoid a fully-fledged suspect on this matter and would like to wrap it up by the end of the year at the latest, but our minds are currently open and we encourage anyone with access that is invested in the metagame to leave their thoughts.

I even linked you a replay in which it shows how uncompetitive the item can truly be, it's just people haven't been abusing it. However, with kyurem being gone, i can see people trying out new stuff and i won't be surprised if we see sand veil brightpowder chomps and stuff like that. I'd just get rid of them at this point.

 

[Pheo]

King rock has been banned 7-8 months after the release of dlc2, during the olt, only when ppl were starting to abuse of it on cloyster. If we could avoid this situation with an other item/mons, it will be better in my opinion

 

[Jirachee]

Here's a question: if you're not going to tolerate Sand Veil / Brightpowder / anything Evade related now, when are you ever going to tolerate them?

Sand Veil and Brightpowder were part of tiering discussions as far back as 10 years ago! The truth is that the community has always hated anything Evade related and it's unlikely to change; I don't think the call for banning these would quiet down unless there was a major change in Evade mechanics which is fairly unlikely.

Shouldn't these just be placed on the permanent banlist alongside Kyogre and OHKO moves? It'd save time at the beginning of Gen 9. You can always revisit it if Game Freak introduces widespread 120 BP Swift clones or something...

 

[Finchinator]

Here's a question: if you're not going to tolerate Sand Veil / Brightpowder / anything Evade related now, when are you ever going to tolerate them?

Sand Veil and Brightpowder were part of tiering discussions as far back as 10 years ago! The truth is that the community has always hated anything Evade related and it's unlikely to change; I don't think the call for banning these would quiet down unless there was a major change in Evade mechanics which is fairly unlikely.

Shouldn't these just be placed on the permanent banlist alongside Kyogre and OHKO moves? It'd save time at the beginning of Gen 9. You can always revisit it if Game Freak introduces widespread 120 BP Swift clones or something...

I would like to think any conclusions drawn in this thread can pave the way for future generation’s initial banlists if we have a strong enough consensus.

This does depend on some variables we do not yet know for sure though, of course.

 

[Aqua Jet]

I also support banning all evasion abilities, as well as Acupressure. Previously, the OverUsed council opted to ban King's Rock on the premise of being uncompetitive. I feel that the same logic can be applied to abilities such as Sand Viel and Snow Cloak, therefore we should ban them. Despite being almost a year old, I think that this replay clearly demonstrates the issues I have with keeping them in OverUsed.

 

[MANNAT]

Just ban every purely RNG associated item and ability (ie quick claw, bright powder, sand veil, etc). Regardless each individual strategy’s effectiveness, they’re still pretty uncompetitive and add quite literally nothing of value to the metagame. These bans should apply to every gen as a whole too, it’s absolutely ridiculous that they aren’t already applied. BTW you should all try cauliflower tacos, they're vegan and super healthy while being absolutely scrumptious. FlamingVictini happy holidays man, I hope your irl is going alright.

 

[Hera]

+1 to all the arguments posted here, although I am a bit iffy on Acupressure because there are legitimate sets that aren't just based on the boosting of evasion (although none that are considered viable in an OU context). Still, if it is agreed that Acupressure falls under Evasion Clause, I would not complain.

Side question: why are these abilities, moves, and items being considered banworthy now? This is not me saying they aren't, and I was not around for Gen 6-7 tiering discussions, but the ideas that stuff like King's Rock and Bright Powder are banworthy because they are uncompetitive seems to be a new idea, or at least one that is now seeing popular support. I don't believe there have been any major mechanic changes involving the main culprits or evasion, so why is this gaining traction now? Sorry if this question has already been asked and answered in a previous thread.

 

[Finchinator]

Side question: why are these abilities, moves, and items being considered banworthy now? This is not me saying they aren't, and I was not around for Gen 6-7 tiering discussions, but the ideas that stuff like King's Rock and Bright Powder are banworthy because they are uncompetitive seems to be a new idea, or at least one that is now seeing popular support. I don't believe there have been any major mechanic changes involving the main culprits or evasion, so why is this gaining traction now? Sorry if this question has already been asked and answered in a previous thread.

Sorry for what is bound to be a longer answer, but I needed some context to explain things here.

I think this is largely a testament to procedural improvements and community philosophy shifting, which has been a recurring theme for uncompetitive matters over the generations.

As for the former, we, as a council, have grown more in-touch with our playerbase through surveys and keeping a closer eye on things like the metagame discussion thread in OU. Sand Veil and Snow Cloak have been just as uncompetitive and maintained this degree of sporadic usage in the metagame itself all generation, but aside from a thread that never took-off earlier this generation, the only times it was brought up were briefly in passing or without any consequential follow-through.

A handful of users mentioned Sand Veil (and evasion related elements) as time elapsed and approached the council about it, so we figured there may be a larger amount of support if we prompted players and posed it as a question in our survey and a topic in the subforum. Doing this rather than waiting for people to approach us, essentially taking the initiative, was the big change here. In prior generations, something like this would usually be spurred by a non-council member posting a PR thread that gained traction immediately after it was posted, but now we are trying to keep up and be proactive with tiering. Upon including this in our survey, we received the results I alluded to in the OP -- majority support for acting on Sand Veil (and Snow Cloak) -- and now here we are steps closer to actual action.

As for the latter, people have taken a more proactive approach to ensuring a competitive landscape in our flagship metagames in more recent years, which has been a recurring theme throughout Smogon tiering history. The dark days of BW tiering and the ancient times that preceded it pretty much ignored a lot of these uncompetitive, topical discussions altogether besides BW banning Sand Veil to help free Garchomp -- things like Baton Pass and trapping abilities roamed free throughout the generation.

Eventually people began noting how uncompetitive these topics were and they gained traction, getting banned from generation 6 and/or 7 which led to it trickling backwards into generations 4 and 5. The point is that, as a community, we are growing more cognizant of what makes our games less competitive and more firm in our pursuit to remove these elements from our game. The recent wave of "RNG bans", if you will, involving King's Rock in a few generations and perhaps this thread with Sand Veil/Snow Cloak/Brightpowder, if anything comes of this, would be a continuation of that and another chapter in our evolution tiering wise.

Ultimately the answer to your question is that this conversation could have happened sooner this generation or even during a time before that, but it has not and all we can do in the present is be more perceptive and continue to improve, so that's what we are trying to do.

And never apologize for asking a genuine question. I hope this answer was satisfactory because I know you are not the only one thinking "why now?"

 

[Lalaya]

I apologize if I remember things wrong or anything like that, but didn't we have a Evasion Clause once upon a time? Not sure why we ever got rid of that, and we definitely should implement that back to eliminate any form of Evasion boosting on yourself to get rid of this extra layer of RNG nobody really wants in a competitive game. Yes, Pokèmon is inherently RNG, but we can at least limit how much we can get screwed by it, especially at literally either no cost or at a marginal cost that you instantly get back if the game decides it's your moment to win, not to mention Evasion is quite literally the only thing you can't control ever (I'm mostly talking about BDSP OU experiences I'm having, but I saw at least 10 games either decided by or facilitated by Tyranitar + Sand Veil Garchomp and one of our first Sample Teams was a Snow Cloak hail, so uhhh...)

It's nothing overly major tbh since it's still only a marginal problem we encounter every once in a while instead of something gamebreaking like King's Rock on Cloyster, an already competent Pokémon (and in due time, probably all Skill Link users would have enjoyed it anyway), but we should definitely address it once and for all-

(also this should cover any main tier tbh, not just SS OU)

 

[Katy]

Hello,

I consider Sand Veil + Bright Powder as really uncompetetive, but not only this. This isn't where the 'party of evasion' stops. It is also a thing in lower tiers and could be deemed problematic in SS OU as well. I think Snow Cloak also falls under this circumstance of being uncompetetive. Evasion boosting abilities and items should definitely be considered as banned altogether, as they add nothing to the game - at least nothing competetive - its a gimmick and for fun, yes, but If we wanna aim for the best competetive mindset, fun should not be factored into it.

Also in a competetive environtment, I dont think those things can be fun whatsoever. If we want to aim for the best competetive stage here, we should ban the following: Sand Veil, Bright Powder, Snow Cloak, or at least Bright Powder, if we don't want to aim for a full ability ban, as Bright Powder just 'add an extra layer' on top of the usual ability, therefore making the evasion even more RNG based.

I think the best way to add a competetive factor is with removing the abilities + the item and as lalaya said and as I have figured out myself in some games in lower tiers is the fact, that this could effect them too to some degree.

 

[Finchinator]

If anyone objects to us acting on topics in this thread, please post in the next 24-48 hours. We plan to act promptly here given the amount of support currently and the council discussed the matter with the tiering administrator yesterday.

 

[Finchinator]

The SS OU tiering council has decided to ban Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and Bright Powder from the SS OU metagame effective immediately. This decision has been approved by tiering administration.

As discussed in the above posts, these abilities and item are used strictly to increase evasion, which the community does not deem a competitive strategy within our metagame given the tiering survey and this thread. On the basis of being uncompetitive and the near unanimous support, we are proceeding with this ban in a prompt fashion to improve our metagame. If anyone has questions on the process or decision, feel free to shoot me a PM anytime.

Tagging Marty and Kris in order to get these implemented when possible. Thank you to everyone who participated and happy holidays everyone!

 

[Finchinator]

Lax Incense is also being banned with the above; it does the same exact thing as Bright Powder and I neglected to group it as an oversight. That is entirely on my shoulders and I apologize for not including it initially. As such, Lax Incense will also be banned.

Sorry for the second tags: Kris Marty