Dream World Council Suspect Discussion

[Tobes]

Some council members cooked up this little idea. Basically this is the area where the council members will make the bulk of their arguments for banning and unbanning Pokemon and other aspects of the metagame. This thread is mostly meant to be a focal point of council opinion, and gives them a medium for debate that does not have the contstraints of a realtime debate on IRC. Anything pertaining to banning and unbanning can be discussed here, within reason.

Just to make this perfectly clear, do not post in this thread unless you are a council member. If you do, your post will be deleted and repeat offenders will be infracted.

Everyone is, however, encouraged to post in the general metagame discussion thread, and council members are expected to interact with people discussing in the general metagame thread.

In the interests of transparency, logs of #dwcouncil discussions will also be posted here.

#dwcouncil Logs

http://pastebin.com/EA6tei2R
http://pastebin.com/LRgXRQSj
http://pastebin.com/XD2nKTQT
http://pastebin.com/JKb1sbc0

Thanks to V0x and mostwanted for collecting these. Remember, #dw is always open to discussion, and #dwcouncil is always open to visitors who want to watch the discussions.

Current list of council members:

Tobes (Leader)
Birkal (Second-in-Command)
ala
Frizy
Hawkstar
idiotfrommars
mostwanted
jrrrrrrr
Omicron
shrang
Taylor
V0x

 

[alamaster]

I just wanted to voice my thoughts on the current unbanned pokemon that BW OU does not currently have since they are probably the most “suspect” in the tier.

Once people realized that it was possible to use Baton Pass on Blaziken he went from a big threat to a MAJOR one. The best way to stop him from passing Speed/Attack boosts is priority but there are uncommon methods like Roaring him away with Suicune. Most phazers are weak to his STAB attacks so other than Suicune there aren’t many options. The only priority that can OHKO Blaziken is Aqua Jet but that is pretty uncommon as well. Blaziken isn’t used as much as some of the other threats and that could mask how good it is. Still IMO he’s the closest to broken with great stats for what he needs to do and phenomenal coverage as well.

Still as annoying as ever with near certainty of setting down hazards or getting some screens up. The attacking set is pretty good too. Still, as fast as Deoxys-S is I don’t know if I’d consider it broken. The screens set could become a huge problem in combination with say…..Blaziken with Swords Dance and Baton Pass. Fortunately there haven’t been many of those teams yet. Priority Taunt is the best way to go for shutting down Deoxys-S (unless it has Magic Coat!) and counters include Lati@s, Jirachi, and bulky Water types. I wouldn’t consider Deoxys-S a suspect at this time but that could change depending on how popular the Dual Screens set gets.

Everyone’s favorite sand mole is back. Excadrill is still the best Rapid Spinner in the game and is a threatening late game sweeper. Exca requires that you have a near 100% way of dealing with it, otherwise you risk getting swept. Unfortunately for Excadrill there are a lot of Fighting priority attacks in this metagame that hinders his sweep. Mediocre defenses forces Exca to OHKO checks or it will get KOd back. I might be alone on this, but I still think he is too powerful for the tier.

Sand Veil. That alone is causing a ton of controversy with what we should do with the land shark. Yeah it’s annoying. But broken? Hard to say. Anyone who has played DW most likely has gotten haxed to hell by him. You could argue that hax is a part of the game but this is “preventable” hax if we just banned chomp. Yeah he’s pretty annoying, but I don’t think he’s ban worthy. I’d be for a complex ban involving Sand Veil, as Rough Skin is not as threatening and Garchomp can be a useful pokemon for the tier. Scarf is a great set and Swords Dance could be a potent sweeper, something like how Landorus plays but with a better secondary STAB.

Rain’s best bud is extremely strong with that +3 Tail Glow boost and free Rests whenever is feels (provided there’s Rain of course). It is a great sweeper and a nightmare for stall teams. As for suspect status; I’m on the fence about this one. Sure it has immense power but it does have a couple of hard checks and is not as fast as it would like to be.

Pretty cool pokemon, but not really relevant as far as suspect discussion goes. Hardly anyone uses it and it doesn’t seem anywhere near broken.

One of those pokemon that looks super threatening on paper, but in reality is a little bit underwhelming especially in this tier. Has a ton of uses, from sweeping to priority Taunting/Twaving stuff which can be super useful to slow down Blaziken/Scarfed pokemon such as Genesect. The Nasty Plot sweeper is still really good but unfortunately gets outsped and KOd by a number of revenge pokemon, namely Chandelure who it cannot escape from. Has a lot of potential but with all of the other pokemon people want to try out it gets forgotten about.

Rain’s other best pal, pony is strong and pretty fast too. The difference between it and say Thundurus is that it has a good amount of bulk to it. It hits like a truck too. Has a couple of hard counters but with team support can blow right through those. The immediate power of a Hydropump (especially from Specs in the Rain) almost makes me want to include a Water Absorber on every team I build. I think its a little early but it has the potential to be suspect for sure.

One of my least favorite pokemon, it’s a U-turn spamming machine with the potential to be a really good cleaner thanks to learning all of the elemental attacks. With Rock Polish can sweep as well. Really tough pokemon to get rid of, but I don’t think it has the power to be a suspect. There’s a couple of really good counters such as Heatran that can wall it all day. Still something to always be ready for and every team should have a U-turn sponge. Its one of those pokemon that can fit on nearly any team and be an instant benefit. Who doesn’t love keeping momentum with U-turn and having an end game cleaner to boot?

These pokemon are unbanned in BW OU but gain new abilities that make them top tier threats as well.

Chandelure – Other than Blaziken, this is the prime suspect of DW. The ability to revenge 50% of the pokemon in the tier is huge and it paves the way for a sweep from a teammate. Breloom giving you trouble and you want an Excadrill sweep? Chandelure! Keldeo can’t get a Calm Mind off with Latios switching in? Chandelure! Even teams with Tyranitar will often result in a one for one trade. The fact that you basically have a guarantee to remove something from the game makes Chandelure suspect status in my view.

Technician boosts Breloom’s low powered attacks to the stratosphere and with 100% sleep in Spore makes for the perfect way to set up. I don’t think of loom as a suspect but he is one of the most talked about pokemon in the tier so I figured I’d give him a mention. The moment you see Breloom on an opposing team you must keep your checks healthy, otherwise you are risking a sweep. Its checks can be pretty shaky too, especially if they switch in on a 5 hit Bullet Seed. As long as you play carefully around Breloom, it shouldn’t cause too much trouble.

So yeah just to summarize I wanted to post my thoughts on the current “suspects”. I use that term loosely because nothing is set in stone at this time.

 

[Lemonade]

I think Ditto is an oddity, but I don't have much of an opinion because I really don't see many of them around. Ditto has the ability to revenge kill and counter sweep an entire team if played with caution, which is really not hard. As of right now I don't see it as gamebreaking, mostly because I don't see it, but it feels like it could just completely threaten the majority of offensive teams.

 

[Taylor]

I think Ditto is an oddity, but I don't have much of an opinion because I really don't see many of them around. Ditto has the ability to revenge kill and counter sweep an entire team if played with caution, which is really not hard. As of right now I don't see it as gamebreaking, mostly because I don't see it, but it feels like it could just completely threaten the majority of offensive teams.

Which plays a part when determining whether this tier is just an exchange of OHKOs until both you and your opponent are left with one Pokemon each. This is not the case as there are more suspects than there are team slots, for one.

Ditto can be brought in once you've passed your Speed Boost + Swords Dance from Blaziken to Garchomp, copy their stats and outspeed due to Choice Scarf; it's down the opponent's Ice Shard or resisting your Outrage/Dragon Claw as best they can.

My opinion on Dream World's most appealing suspects are of course Garchomp + Sand Veil and Blaziken with Baton Pass; I can handle them both otherwise. However, if they are to pass those boosts to Garchomp, who's to say you're guaranteed to hit Garchomp?

Dream World offers an alternative to Garchomp in Rough Skin, which would lead to banning single abilities as oppose to banning the Pokemon altogether; I don't want that. I'd rather us keep Garchomp and reconsider the direction of Dream World before banning Garchomp outright.

I also don't want people to claim Blaziken needs to see Ubers as it is a menace in Sun; that's the players' first mistake, in allowing their Sand/Rain team to lose the weather war before it's even started.

I'm also greatful we have Scizor's typing (Genesect) and an equally, if not more, offensively threatning priority user in Technician Breloom. Its staggering power helps revenge kill some of these suspects without much effort. The main issue is Chandelure and how you have to accept you losing Breloom, but will get a chance to set up next turn with their Chandelure being "Choice-locked".

 

[shrang]

Okay, personally, I think the main problems in the metagame right now are the fact that we have many, many good sweepers that have very few things checking them. Apart from Blaziken and Garchomp, who I think should be banned outright, a lot of sweepers are only held back by one or two checks. The biggest issue is that most of these checks are easily removed by Chandelure. I've made a list of these before, and I'll reiterate that here just for convenience:

Pokemon in italics cannot hold Shed Shell, or would be extremely disadvantaged beyond losing Leftovers/Life Orb/Berry to hold Shed Shell (mostly Eviolite mons):

Choice Scarf can trap:
- Skarmory
- Ferrothorn
- Scizor
- Jellicent
- Reuniclus
- Latias
- Slowbro
- Forretress
- Tangrowth
- Breloom
- Dusclops
- Serperior
- Virizion
- Lucario
- Heracross
- Jirachi
- Celebi
- Magnezone
- Metagross
- Sableye
- Mew
- Genesect
- Amoonguss
- Dragonite
- Salamence
- Venusaur
- Gliscor
- Hippowdon
- Garchomp
- Gastrodon
- Quagsire

Sub/CM can trap:
- Blissey / Chansey
- Porygon2 (to an extent)

SunnyBeam can trap:
- Politoed
- Pretty much ALL bulky Waters
- Some Tyranitar

Again, this is like half the tier. If you remove a Breloom or Gliscor, Excadrill gets a very easy sweep. If you remove something like Gastrodon, NP Thunder Wave Thundurus gets to virtually broken levels. You can use the SunnyBeamer set to easily win a weather war for your sun team. I know we haven't been using the clauses for a while, but it's good to go back and revisit them since they are still helpful. Chandelure fits the Support Characteristic like freaking glove.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Now, whether it's Chandelure's fault for being able to trap these checks and leading to out of control Pokemon or whether it's these Pokemon's fault for having too few checks is another debate, I really think whatever the cause, this is unhealthy. I feel like I'm playing Ubers when I play DW, except you know, without Ubers. Sure, each threat is loosely checked by something else just like in Ubers, but this is not what we're after. Personally, I don't care, because I like playing Ubers, but why should I play DW when I can just play Ubers? We are trying reach a balanced metagame. So, I reckon we should either: 1) Ban Chandelure and see how things turn out or 2) Ban a whole bunch of sweepers. Personally, I like the "ban Chandelure" route better, since it's so much easier to implement. I'll get to that reasoning now:

Why ban Chandelure?
- Well, I've already gone through how it traps and kills common checks to the big sweepers like Excadrill, Terrakion, Keldeo, Dragonite, Manaphy, etc.

Counter arguments:
1) Stick Shed Shell on your most important checks. I have answered to this before, but I guess for the formality, I'll do it again. Firstly, there are many, many threats that are rampant in DW. This means that you'll likely require more than one check to deal with most of them. Since Chandelure can remove most of these checks, if you REALLY want to guarantee the safety of these checks, you're going to have to run a resist berry or Shed Shell on them. This is very impractical, and in a lot of cases, detrimental to how a Pokemon functions. I know Shed Shell is the most used item on Ferrothorn these days. I use it too on my rain team, and it plain sucks! It is so much harder to make Ferrothorn defend without Leftovers. Just by being there, Chandelure has reduced the effectiveness of walls. It would also be impractical to run a Shed Shell on your bulky Politoed, too, since that's just ridiculous, but you may have to do it if you don't want SunnyBeaming Chandelure from easily winning the weather war for you.

2) The "one-for-one" argument - Not going to lie now, I hate this argument, because it really shows you're not thinking hard enough. Yes, the common scenario is something like "Chandelure traps and OHKOs Gliscor with Hidden Power Ice, Tyranitar comes in and kills Chandelure with Pursuit, 1 for 1, fair trade". Again, Chandelure is NOT a sweeper. I'm not interested in how many Pokemon it kills, it's what it kills. By removing Gliscor, Chandelure would have removed possibly the only reliable check on the opposing team to Excadrill or Terrakion, or whatever. Sure, you may have a secondary check, but it's not going to stand up to Excadrill with a tiny bit of smart play. So, the sort of situation that arises is that after Tyranitar kills Chandelure with Pursuit, in comes Excadrill, sets up a Swords Dance and you are now shitting bricks because your one reliable check to Excadrill just got itself destroyed by Chandelure. It's not just the easy 1v1 swap any more. Sure, I've heard Tobes say that every good team has more than 1 check to Excadrill, but is that really practical? Yes, you are carrying Gliscor, but I bet you that your secondary check is rather flimsy compared to Gliscor. It's like chess, if I have a whole cascade of pawns on one side of the board where I'm clearly dominant and you have the same number of pawns that are blocked, I'd very willingly swap Queens, Rooks, Bishops, whatever to force an endgame where it would be easy for me to just promote a pawn and win. Looking at Chandelure getting trapped and removed as a material trade is just too simple and does not tell you the entire story. I've played many, many games where I've willingly sac'd mons or kept opposing mons alive (eg Chansey) so I can pull off a sweep afterwards. You must look at the big picture with these things.

Okay, I'm also for banning Blaziken and Garchomp, but I think I'll stop for now, I've typed enough for one sitting.