Rejected Drampa and Simisear in SM PU

[Chloe]

SM PU has been more or less the same over the last few years. The tier had a major departure right before the arrival of Sword & Shield in Mesprit, which drastically affected the metagame due to how prominent it was at the time. The few years since then have shown SM PU develop into a more or less balanced and enjoyable metagame without any action having been taken. There have been two major exceptions to this balance however, and they stick out like a sore thumb to anyone who's played a substantial amount of SM PU.


Drampa is mainly a Choice Specs wallbreaker with no real reliable answers. Its STAB Draco Meteor coming off 135 Special Attack is way too much for the defensive Pokemon present in the SM PU metagame, and hence most games using it come down to prediction, in the favour of the Drampa user. Without a Fairy-type, Drampa's best checks take upwards of 60% from Draco Meteor regardless, and hence get chipped down fairly easily. Pokemon like Clefairy, Cryogonal, Mr. Mime and specially defensive Jellicent are used in part to attempt to deal with it, but can all be overcome using coverage. Clefairy cannot live two presses of Hyper Voice; Cryogonal cannot take two subsequent Fire Blasts in a row even if it is using Recover in between, and the other Pokemon mentioned have issues in their own right. Overall, Drampa is an immensely powerful breaker, one that many believe is too much for the tier.


Simisear is another example of a prominent Fire-type that the pool of Pokemon in SM PU is unable to deal with. Over the few years when SM was the current generation, we saw Pokemon like Houndoom, Pyroar, Charizard and Typhlosion get banned due to our inability to handle such threats defensively in a Z-move oriented metagame. Simisear shares this problem. Using Nasty Plot it's able to overpower the majority of Pokemon with Fire Blast alone. If it wants to get past Pokemon like Jellicent and Lanturn, it can use Grassium Z Grass Knot. Many people run Dragon-types solely to deal with Simisear, but there isn't that large a selection. Drampa gets overwhelmed by optional Focus Blast, whereas Altaria loses to Hidden Power Ice, both of which have seen substantial usage. It is arguably too effective at what it does, and as of late, Hyper Offense and offensive playstyles in general have risen to the forefront of SM PU, in part due to many players wanting to abuse Simisear's offensive prowess in addition to not having to conjure up a middling defensive check to such an offensive powerhouse.

These Pokemon have been brought up repeatedly during the last few years as problems with SM PU, and many have as of late called for action to be taken on them.

Tagging people who have been involved with SM PU recently to invite them to give their thoughts (this is not a voting list by any means). Please feel free to contribute even if you have not been tagged here:

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avarice LordST Xiri tlenit gum robjr Santu ninjadog pdt zS mncmt MZ Ktütverde TJ Taskr termi Finchinator Luthier Spl4sh Antares Lambovino Drud Thiago Nunes Pohjis Expulso Bag of Trixx

Hoping this can lead to healthy discussion pertaining to the two mentioned threats. Thank you for reading.

 

[Leni]

not interested in putting down 8 paragraph reasoning for both mons so i'll keep this short and nice.

Drampa gets the boot, Simisear gets the right to live another day.

Cheers!

Okay, maybe couple words at least about Drampa since it's best check in the metagame in Carbink (that also plays around simisear) can't come in anymore as the meta game finally been shifting more to surf/eball direction on 4th slot. All in all, nothing switches in and everything dies at the end of day to Drampa. So yea, just like before the end of gen, I'm still fan of booting this one out of the stadium

Simisear, use more hakamo-o, its actually nice mon and covers lot of annoying special attackers like Victreebel, Jellicent, Omastar. Happens to cover some physical attackers with its bulk too. Anyhow, think this mon is fine, no complaints

 

[zS]

i think both should go at this point
completely agree with what tlenit said about drampa, it’s way too powerful and the metagame shifted well enough to play around its only check carbink.
however i gotta disagree about the simisear part. i do think hakamo is viable for sure, and rather unexplored in the tier, but idt its sole presence is enough to justify keeping the turt monkey around. this mon’s always 1 threat and a half ingame + it’s a huge pain in the builder. been building a lot of sm during last pupl and i’ve never been in a situation where i thought i was fine into simisear if not for said hakamo. you can’t switch-in without taking huge risks into this, and like 95% of the mindgames where simisear is involved are favoring it given how versatile it is. i don’t think sm is able to absorb this anymore, especially w/ drampa ban (chople / av drampa were fine soft checks into it too).
all in all, i’d get rid of both, would make the tier way healthier in my opinion

 

[Ktütverde]

SMPU has always been extremely offensive except for kangaspikes teams pretty much and some stalls here and there. Most mons don't actually have decent checks (drampa, vic, eel, jelli, simi, mudsdale...) Drampa brings a much needed offensive check to eel and victreebel, and stops ferroseed's leech seed. It can also check jellicent which is very dangerous. Simisear brings an as-much-needed check to icetypes and to vic too, and is a breaker able to break through these cancerous HJAD ferrokanga teams (this is a good thing yes, no matter what HJAD tells you). And of course drampa and simisear are a lot of fun to use (well to me at least!)

I fundamentally disagree with messing with fully-explored oldgens : we shouldn't pretend we have discovered anything relevant since the end of gen7. I also often call for drampa and primeape and others to get the boot, but I don't actually mean it, that's how the tier is and it's all right to get bored of it after playing the same combos for years. Then I understand that some of us want the tier to change, but I'd argue that in this case we can just play another tier. Fully-explored metagames are not supposed to leave much room for actual innovation or metagame evolution, it's just about re-using the goold old combos we figured out long ago.

Note : I do not think we can take action on SMPU or ORASPU like we did with BWPU (throh ban, gothorita ban, rain ban, simipour ban...) because BWPU never was a main gen. Just in case someone was thinking of using this argument against my points.

 

[LordST]

The question that has been plaguing SM PU for years: what to do with the two brokens? I'm pretty confident if both of these were to go we would be well and truly done with problematic mons. There are a few others you could argue are broken in some way or another (Vic and Jelli come to mind) but the two in question are clearly a step above all others.

I'll premise with this: I'm of the opinion that both of these mons are "broken" by the traditional definition we use on this site. Both put an undue burden in the builder and necessitate either bringing hard checks to each specifically that would otherwise be mediocre OR building in a way that leaves zero openings for the two to make a meaningful impact, potentially leaving yourself weaker to other strategies. However, when it comes to oldgens the question I'm more concerned with instead of whether they are broken or not is would banning them improve the quality and enjoyment of the tier. So to entertain myself and hopefully some of you reading this, I'd like to explore what the tier might look like without them.

SMPU without Simisear
Banning Simi is a much scarier prospect to me since it really is our last viable fire type. We all know PU can't have good fire types in any gen. Sure we've used some other things here and there, but they are either niche breakers with very clear and exploitable flaws (Camerupt, Combusken) or mediocre defensive utility mons we only tried because Simisear is broken (Monferno, Rapidash). Simisear alone has made offense the dominant strategy in SM for a long time. It's just simply easier to focus on maintaining offensive momentum rather than try and cover Simis plethora of breaking options and coverage. If Simisear were to go, I think we would see a rise in fat semi-stall/balance cores. Think stuff like CryoClefFerro. You can use stuff like that right now viably, but you are very much shoehorned into building a certain way by bringing at least one (probably better off with two) hard stop(s) to the monkey. Defensive dragons, Grumpig, Rindo Jelli, etc all find their way onto teams like this right now because of Simi's presence. If we were to ban it, I believe structures like this would become more dominant as they no longer have to dedicated a whole slot with a meh mon just for our one fire type. I'm not sure if this would make the tier more enjoyable or not, but I think it would at least objectively be a tier with more competitive balance and integrity.

SMPU without Drampa
I think banning Drampa would have slightly less impact than banning Simi but would still change how the tier plays drastically. Unlike Simisear, Drampa enjoys a lot of defensive utility thanks to amazing Normal/Dragon typing and an immunity to Grass. Drampa is almost always a valuable pick on a team because in addition to being the most powerful breaker in the tier it can also function as your check to a lot of metagame staples like Leafeon/Victreebel, Jellicent, Ferroseed, Eelektross, etc. Like Ktut said above, if it were to go we would potentially feel more stress trying to check some of these. When building against Drampa its basically bring a fairy (we have like 2.5 viable ones) or just hope you can outplay. Even if you do bring a fairy you still need to outplay it just makes it a bit easier. Fairyvally and Clef get two shot by HVoice, Mime can die to Fire Blast after rocks, and not even Carbink is safe from the stray Surf/Eball. If you choose to not bring a fairy you are almost certainly taking a trade with it at best as not even bulky steel types can take two Specs Dracos. Even with all this being said I don't think banning would change the tier much at least visually the way a Simisear ban would. A lot of the tools people use right now to help vs Drampa like Spdef Jelli, Max Spdef Eel, Fairyvally, etc are solid mons that check other threats in the tier. It's not like Simisear in that way where a lot of its checks are exclusively used for it. If we were to ban Drampa and leave Simisear I don't think too much changes, you will just never have to play those high stress games again where you hope you click the right button when it comes in. Whether thats a good thing or not, again, I don't feel like I have a strong opinion one way or the other.


So there you have it, a lot of words with no solution offered! While I can't make up my mind about what to do with these problem children I hope I could at least help some of you organize your thoughts on the matter. To close out I'd like to offer some adjustments I've made with my teams specifically in the last PUPL in relation to these two.

Offensive Cryogonal with HP Ground
When I think about Drampa and Simisear and how to combat them both Cryo is often a mon that comes to mind. The interaction between the three has become one of the main driving factors of the tier as people have discovered it really is one of the best hazard control options on offer. Being able to check all sorts of stuff while maintaining an amazing speed tier is how it finds its way on to so many of my teams and specifically this PUPL i used HP Ground almost exclusively in its last slot and often paired it with a LO. For most of its life in PU Cryo has preferred HP Fight, Fire, Toxic, or Knock in its last slot but with the soaring popularity of Simi and targets for the other HPs falling a bit out of favor, running HP Ground has become a no brainer to me. With LO Simi will always die to Freeze Dry into HP Ground, and has a chance to die in one after rocks. Even if you want to maintain Leftovers for defensive purposes, HP Ground is still valuable in denying Simi a sub. Running this set gives you a Drampa check that can't be abused by Simi and has an amazing speed tier. Those three attributes alone give it immense value in the current metagame.

Fairyvally feat. coverage
Similar to Cryo, Fairyvally is a balance and bulky offense staple that Simi can normally abuse and force kills versus. By simply slapping Surf on Supportvally or Rock Slide on SDvally you keep the mon from being a liability vs it. Surf on Support does come with some tough opportunity cost; giving up Pshot/U-turn is a rough proposition and limits what the mon can accomplish in its support role, but if the team comp requires it I think the trade off can be worth it, but only in some situations. Rock Slide on SD is a stronger pick imo since it never really has much need for its 4th move anyways. U-turn is really just good for early game utility and other options like Psychic Fangs almost never get clicked. Multi Attack into Rock Slide will pretty much always kill, meaning Simi can't setup and start punching holes in your team. Just like with the Cryo set, the ability to use a valuable bulky offense staple without being abused by Simi is a strong tool.

Mr. Mime in general
It seems people have finally caught on with this past PUPL, but this is a legit mon. Scarf is probably its best set providing a solid speed tier and H wish, but NP is also something that can reliably punch holes in opposing teams. Fairy/Psychic STAB is pretty hard to switch into, and it can usually find opportunities to come in thanks to its usable special bulk and typing. Though with all that being said, forcing Drampa to predict is the only reason this mon really gets used over better options. But with the tier being so offense focused, being able to do that with an offensive tool instead of a defensive one is very valuable. Use more Mime its like our 4th best scarfer !

Things that can revenge Simi without a Choice Scarf
I feel like one of the problems people run into with Simi is a lot of the times they end up in a situation where they are forced to kill Simi with their scarfer and get abused for it afterwards. Running mons like Kadabra and Dodrio can help alleviate this issue and strike back with offensive momentum of your own. These two in particular dont see many resists atm, so try them out they will probably work well for you!

Thanks for reading, this post turned into something a lot longer than I initially thought going in you can blame Chloe

 

[MZ]

I'm very much with a lot of the sentiments that have already been shared with regard to Simisear. It's a massive pain in the ass a lot of the time, but also something we really can adapt for both offensively and defensively and genuinely adds something to the meta in a way to stave off fat balance teams from being a bit too fat balancey for anything to handle without thoroughly invalidating the style. I'd say Drampa is manageable too, but at least there you're not losing a ton out of the meta and the arguments on counterplay are a lot more difficult given how well it clicks. Still, I just can't look at current SM PU and think anything near the extreme level of "Drampa is too broken and dominating the meta". I think we can and should absolutely re-evaluate their place in the meta, but for me the evaluation comes out to no bans.

 

[rien]

Okay so I rambled a bit on PU disc and was asked to post it here too, keep in mind that I haven't played SM in like 2 years or maybe more but looking at some recent PUPL replays it looks like not much has changed if at all so it should make me qualified-ish to post my thoughts on the matter? Apologies in advance if anything is not concise and/or factually correct, if anything I said is really stupid feel free to tear me apart lol

TL;DR: Drampa should stay, Simisear needs to go (or at least needs to go first).

ok

Hi hello yes I've been dead for a while and I'm probably not up to date with SM so I won't be making a full post, but if the meta is anything like it was 2-ish years ago then Simisear needs to go and Drampa needs to stay (or at least Simisear should go first)

I probably won't be too coherent so apologies in advance

Yes Drampa is super strong but it's also kinda slow and there's a good selection of fightings/fairies/ices that can OHKO/2HKO it if running z move/specs, and if it's specs there are plenty of top tier mons that can take advantage of it

Other than that its range of sets also feels healthy for a more balanced/BO meta, like banning it might destabilize the meta quite a bit

Meanwhile Simisear is just really fast and scary and there's really no good way of defensively dealing with it outside of niche mons like Altaria

I feel like taking it out of the meta won't fundamentally change it, like you won't be forced to run Altaria and shitty coverage moves on Fairyvally/Cryo, and Jelli might get a bit better, but that's it really

Anyway so yeah I think Drampa is not only healthy-ish but also keeps SM interesting and engaging, it's just a mon I can't imagine the meta without, like I wouldn't see the meta without jelli or eel or nape

e: after reading the other replies, I also somewhat agree with both Ktut's reluctancy to change what is already a well-established metagame and LST's focus on the enjoyability of the meta rather than just addressing sheer brokenness.

 

[Chloe]

Now that the thread has been open for a few months it seems pretty clear that for the most part the consensus is that the meta is fine even with these threats and that tiering action isn't necessary.

PUWC is about to start so it's good to have our decision on this prior. If opinions were more divided than they are, this may have led to a vote, but there's not enough pro-ban sentiment to justify that. It's important to note however that there's still a possibility this topic gets revisited in the future if opinions on Drampa / Simisear start to devolve.

No action will be taken on Drampa & Simisear in SM PU. Thank you to everyone for their feedback!