Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings: mk. IV

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As far as lead VR goes, the last VR thread did have one so we'd have a good place to start. Just giving it a quick glance it seems fairly accurate, although the D ranks and half the C ranks could probably be purged (I have not seen anyone lead blissey since 2010)

Also agreeing with empoleon staying where it is, agility sets are not the only thing it can do, its a good lead and competent special tank that can switch into latias.
 
Hi question coming from someone just getting into dpp. What does mesprit have over the uxie and azelf? It seems to me that its outclassed on both spectrums, but it also has healing wish. I was thinking maybe like a more bulky attacker with a scarf with healing wish would be an ok set?
 
Lovely11 its sorta a mix of both where its a rock setter with some offensive presence, boltbeam coverage (thunderbolt and ice beam) is also huge for certain offensive teams bc unlike azelf you don't have to boom to stop the dragonite / gyarados from setting up on you. healing wish is huge too yeah
 
Hi question coming from someone just getting into dpp. What does mesprit have over the uxie and azelf? It seems to me that its outclassed on both spectrums, but it also has healing wish. I was thinking maybe like a more bulky attacker with a scarf with healing wish would be an ok set?
Remember that Latias also gets healing wish... That set that you described would have a hard time not being outclassed by latias imo... Unless you meant as a scarf lead.
 
Hi question coming from someone just getting into dpp. What does mesprit have over the uxie and azelf? It seems to me that its outclassed on both spectrums, but it also has healing wish. I was thinking maybe like a more bulky attacker with a scarf with healing wish would be an ok set?
I think Mesprit actually has a lot of unseen potential in DPP right now. Ninjax touched on the basics: a BoltBeam set and its potential to use Healing Wish. The reason why Mesprit should be used over something like Latias is because of its unique role compression with its two main sets. The role compression Mesprit offers is a Stealth Rock user that resists Fighting and is immune to Ground and Spikes/Tspikes. With quite a bit of defensive investment and BoltBeam coverage, it can function as a very solid check to DDDnite and DDGyara. It has a lot of flexibility within that set though. I'd say Thunder Wave would be the most popular filler but you can drop tbolt or ice beam for moves like U-turn and Hidden Power Ground on trapping teams, for example, that want a way to chip Metagross / Heatran. I've specifically tried something like that with Torment Tran + Dugtrio before and it fit quite well. With odd moves you can shift some of its EVs to SpD so you can more easily take a hit from Starmie and U-turn into Dugtrio, and also function more like a soft check to Zapdos.

Healing Wish fits best on a Choice Scarf set with Trick, Stealth Rock, U-turn, and Healing Wish. Basically it's a Choice Scarf Uxie that has access to Healing Wish, which nothing else can do. It can be very appealing for certain teams and probably falls under the radar a lot; I didn't particularly notice this set until I saw Marshall.Law use it. It also has Knock Off and some more offbeat moves like Grass Knot and Fire Punch, so there's probably a lot of room for creativity with it as well.
 

SFG

Snom is Fucking Great
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Hi! First of all, this VR is really complete and accurate, nice job! However, I noticed some elements that I think we can change. Obviously, it's only my opinion as a really young player in this tier.

Heracross: B- B

Obviously, increasing usage of skarmory hinders Heracross really hard. However, B- is definitively too low for me. Thanks to his powerful STABs and his awesome attack, this mon can hit a large majority of the metagame very hard (I don't think he has any switch in, except Skarmory, Hippowdon and bold Jirachi for the choice scarf). With a choice scarf, he can revenge kill a plethora of threats and with a choice band, he has literally no switch in. The bug/ fighting double type, besides giving him STAB on Close Combat and Megahorn, allows him to switch on some ground/ dark/ fighting/ grass attacks, especially from ttar, loom, flygon or hippowdon. Finally, it's also an efficient sleep absorber, thanks to guts + sleep talk, combined with his resistances to both breloom's STABs.

Vaporeon: C- C+

Tbh, I don't really understand how this mon can be so low in the ranking. The choice specs, even if he's uncommon, can hit some teams really hard, thanks to his 180 BP Hydro Pump combined with a good special attack. The defensive set, even if he can be pretty passive, can also wall a lot of Pokémon like Heatran, Empo, Flygon, Jirachi or Gengar (even if the specs is still better imo). In any case, the choice specs set deserves C+ for me.

Lucario: A- A

As Excal said, Lucario is probably one of the biggest threats that we have to considerer during team building. SD and agility sets, even if any decent build is prepared for them, have both potential to sweep entire teams (and tbh agility luke is one of the best cleaner in this tier for me). Even without setup, it's really hard to switch on Lucario, especially on a choice band set. That's why, even if he has checks, this mon deserves A rank for me.


That's all for me! Thanks to Adri for his carefull re-reading. Once again, you did an awesome job on this rank, an this post is only the opinion of a really young player of the tier! Thanks for reading, and Merry Christmas everyone! :psywoke:
 
Hi! First of all, this VR is really complete and accurate, nice job! However, I noticed some elements that I think we can change. Obviously, it's only my opinion as a really young player in this tier.

Heracross: B- B

Obviously, increasing usage of skarmory hinders Heracross really hard. However, B- is definitively too low for me. Thanks to his powerful STABs and his awesome attack, this mon can hit a large majority of the metagame very hard (I don't think he has any switch in, except Skarmory, Hippowdon and bold Jirachi for the choice scarf). With a choice scarf, he can revenge kill a plethora of threats and with a choice band, he has literally no switch in. The bug/ fighting double type, besides giving him STAB on Close Combat and Megahorn, allows him to switch on some ground/ dark/ fighting/ grass attacks, especially from ttar, loom, flygon or hippowdon. Finally, it's also an efficient sleep absorber, thanks to guts + sleep talk, combined with his resistances to both breloom's STABs.

Vaporeon: C- C+

Tbh, I don't really understand how this mon can be so low in the ranking. The choice specs, even if he's uncommon, can hit some teams really hard, thanks to his 180 BP Hydro Pump combined with a good special attack. The defensive set, even if he can be pretty passive, can also wall a lot of Pokémon like Heatran, Empo, Flygon, Jirachi or Gengar (even if the specs is still better imo). In any case, the choice specs set deserves C+ for me.

Lucario: A- A

As Excal said, Lucario is probably one of the biggest threats that we have to considerer during team building. SD and agility sets, even if any decent build is prepared for them, have both potential to sweep entire teams (and tbh agility luke is one of the best cleaner in this tier for me). Even without setup, it's really hard to switch on Lucario, especially on a choice band set. That's why, even if he has checks, this mon deserves A rank for me.


That's all for me! Thanks to Adri for his carefull re-reading. Once again, you did an awesome job on this rank, an this post is only the opinion of a really young player of the tier! Thanks for reading, and Merry Christmas everyone! :psywoke:
Vaporeon's problem is that it's directly outclassed in all of its roles. The defensive set is pretty much a shittier Milotic with Wish, which isn't enough to make up for its shortcomings. Since it has to run Wish + Protect, Vaporeon can only fit one of Roar/Toxic/HP Electric into its moveset. Meanwhile, Milotic frees up a moveslot with Recover and can comfortably run both Haze and HP Electric. Although Wish is useful for team support, its reliance on Protect is predictable and exploitable. As for the Specs set, there's little reason to use it over Specs Kingdra, which can actually outspeed things and is backed by STAB Draco Meteor. I don't necessarily think that Vaporeon is bad, but much like Rhydon vs. Golem in RBY, the viability of one mon can influence the relative viability of another.
 
Vaporeon's problem is that it's directly outclassed in all of its roles. The defensive set is pretty much a shittier Milotic with Wish, which isn't enough to make up for its shortcomings. Since it has to run Wish + Protect, Vaporeon can only fit one of Roar/Toxic/HP Electric into its moveset. Meanwhile, Milotic frees up a moveslot with Recover and can comfortably run both Haze and HP Electric. Although Wish is useful for team support, its reliance on Protect is predictable and exploitable. As for the Specs set, there's little reason to use it over Specs Kingdra, which can actually outspeed things and is backed by STAB Draco Meteor. I don't necessarily think that Vaporeon is bad, but much like Rhydon vs. Golem in RBY, the viability of one mon can influence the relative viability of another.
Choice Specs Vaporeon is significantly stronger than Kingdra, and Water Absorb is an extremely useful ability with all the Choice Band Swamperts running around, not to mention that Vaporeon is super light so even offensive Empoleon can have a bit of difficulty combating the specs set. I think as a lead, the ability to OHKO Colbur Azelf with a lot of special bulk and even have very good odds at OHKOing Lum Metagross (which isn't running 252 HP as much as it used to) is very useful. Not that I think it's better than specs Kingdra but these differences definitely warrant using it on certain teams and mean that it isn't directly outclassed. I also think beyond a specs set, Vaporeon has some other cool options that are a bit unexplored. I definitely recognize its issues, but I do agree with SFG that C- is way too low for it.
 
thanks for the last few posts guys. it's been a while, holidays are over and spl is starting so it's time to start this up again. I'm sure we'll all be keeping an eye on what happens. anyone is welcome to post so long as they back up what they have to say.

I made some small rearrangements myself; I moved blissey down to the bottom of A- and moved milotic up to A- as it feels a cut above dug/uxie and friends in B+.
Heracross: B- B

Obviously, increasing usage of skarmory hinders Heracross really hard. However, B- is definitively too low for me. Thanks to his powerful STABs and his awesome attack, this mon can hit a large majority of the metagame very hard (I don't think he has any switch in, except Skarmory, Hippowdon and bold Jirachi for the choice scarf). With a choice scarf, he can revenge kill a plethora of threats and with a choice band, he has literally no switch in. The bug/ fighting double type, besides giving him STAB on Close Combat and Megahorn, allows him to switch on some ground/ dark/ fighting/ grass attacks, especially from ttar, loom, flygon or hippowdon. Finally, it's also an efficient sleep absorber, thanks to guts + sleep talk, combined with his resistances to both breloom's STABs.
the cb set struggles vs. gliscor and nidoqueen, but other than that, I agree with what you've said entirely. hera is quite good so long as he's played to his strengths - for cb, that would be not overrelying on him defensively (most notably against breloom) and getting him into the best position to mess stuff up (double into clef as opposed to eating seismic toss in addition to sr + sand). scarf megahorn is also quite a weapon against starmie/ttar offense, crushing accompanying pokes like rachi, flygon and loom; heatran is of course an incredibly risky switch, and with sr up, zap/dnite/gyara are uncomfortable + exploitable.

hera fits the company of the B pokes moreso than B- and is the best poke in that rank against the meta as a whole, so I've moved him to the topmost position in B rank, edging out raikou.

Vaporeon: C- C+
Tbh, I don't really understand how this mon can be so low in the ranking. The choice specs, even if he's uncommon, can hit some teams really hard, thanks to his 180 BP Hydro Pump combined with a good special attack. The defensive set, even if he can be pretty passive, can also wall a lot of Pokémon like Heatran, Empo, Flygon, Jirachi or Gengar (even if the specs is still better imo). In any case, the choice specs set deserves C+ for me.
I put vap in C- with the defensive set in mind, but I agree that with the growing popularity of specs, which is genuinely good, it deserves to move up. I put it at the top of C+ ahead of mesprit, which I think is fair.

Lucario: A- A
As Excal said, Lucario is probably one of the biggest threats that we have to considerer during team building. SD and agility sets, even if any decent build is prepared for them, have both potential to sweep entire teams (and tbh agility luke is one of the best cleaner in this tier for me). Even without setup, it's really hard to switch on Lucario, especially on a choice band set. That's why, even if he has checks, this mon deserves A rank for me.
not a fan of cb, but luc is definitely dangerous. ice punch is really difficult to counter with glis/nido/zap, but that brings up other issues, mainly scarftar/gengar without bp - it's pretty nasty when gar is actually a good switchin. restalk rotom coming back hurts a lot as well, since it's far more difficult to pursuit. the prominence of fire punch jirachi means luc has been relegated to more of a wallbreaking role than sweeping, but I find mixape (especially with leftovers) tends to do that better thanks to speed (hugely important against opposing offense) and stab fire blast for the fighting-neutral steels as well as gk for pert and a semi-free slot to play with (uturn, mach, hp ice/elec). in the current metagame, luc definitely feels more in line with magnezone suicune and friends than the comparative giants of A. having said that, luc should probably rise within A- so I have risen him to be in between machamp and kingdra. I'm open to more discussion on this.

at your guys' behest, I have thrown together and implemented a rough lead ranking. I left out junk/stuff that doesn't get used anymore (examples being weavile for the former, mamoswine for the latter). I think I got everything relevant but let me know if I've forgotten something!
 
at your guys' behest, I have thrown together and implemented a rough lead ranking. I left out junk/stuff that doesn't get used anymore (examples being weavile for the former, mamoswine for the latter). I think I got everything relevant but let me know if I've forgotten something!
Great job with the small adjustments, I agree with all of them and I think you placed stuff really well, so thanks for that!

Some leads you may want to consider putting in the lead VR: Scizor, Suicune, Vaporeon, Blissey

Choice Scarf Scizor is a great pivoting lead, provided that there is a good answer in the back for Machamp/Zapdos. Nidoqueen pairs nicely in the back because of this. Suicune makes for a pretty decent lead overall, as it can match up decently vs Metagross, Swampert, and even Machamp. Choice Specs Vaporeon has some nice benefits as a lead: teams that lack an answer to strong Water-types in the back and match up badly vs Vaporeon will suffer and it can get a ton of early momentum, notably KOing SpD Colbur Azelf and has decent odds to OHKO Lum Berry Metagross. Blissey is quite a decent lead, better than Clefable on paper but it's the exact same idea.
 
Can Blastoise be included in the leads list? It acts like a weaker Empoleon, but with access to rapid spin. The general strategy is to hydropump or ice beam on turn one (Dragonite cannot OHKO Blastoise), then follow it up with either rapid spin or aqua jet to finish off focus sash opponents.
 
Now that SPL is over, I'd like to propose some rises and drops in the current VR:

Rises:
Latias: A —> A+
Latias is a ridiculously good Pokemon. Boasting #2 in usage during this SPL and a 53% win rate, it’s no coincidence that it has been featured on more than half of the teams used this season. Latias is easily one of the best Choice Scarf users due to its incredible Speed tier enabling it to outspeed +2 AgiliGross, +2 DD Gyara, and its extremely high customizability. In addition, it finds many opportunities to pivot in as a revenge killer because of its great typing and ability, and even with Timid its Draco Meteor and Thunderbolt are more than powerful enough to do the job. Other utility moves like Trick, Thunder Wave, and Healing Wish are extremely effective on these sets. Yes, it can be trapped by Tyranitar, but I honestly find that I get great use out of Scarf Lati every time I use it. It’s just so ensuring versus opposing offensive teams and even stuff like Rain. Of course, in addition to its Scarf set it has a slew of other potent sets it can utilize, like Choice Specs, Calm Mind, and bulky ones with moves like Toxic and Reflect that have seen some usage this SPL. I rate Latias very highly personally, better than the likes of Starmie, Rotom-A, Skarmory, Breloom, and Infernape, but regardless I think Latias in A is not representative of how viable it is in the current metagame.

Swampert: A —> A+

Swampert is an incredibly solid option for almost any team. Defensive sets have been on the rise again, as people are finding more creative ways to circumvent stall weaknesses while using it (ie. Scarf Magnezone, Calm Mind Clefable, etc). It’s a fantastic option both offensively and defensively, and its typing is incredibly desirable right now. I think it should be the bottom of A+, and I’d say it’s probably better than Infernape, simply due to the fact that I feel like you always get something great out of Swampert regardless of its shortcomings.

Clefable: A —> A+

Clefable is the best it has ever been. People are discovering new unique sets like Life Orb, and Bold Calm Mind seems to have skyrocketed in usage, as it not only combines immaculately with Dugtrio, but it has a tremendous amount of utility versus both offensive and defensive teams. It functions as a soft check to Dragon Dance Dragonite and a very solid one versus Dragon Dance Gyarados. Defensive teams can have a very hard time dealing with Calm Mind Clefable over a long game. I’d put it in the bottom of A+; Clefable is just that fucking good.

Dugtrio: B+ —> A-

Dugtrio saw increased usage and success this SPL, and it’s definitely not a coincidence. I think Latias has enabled Dugtrio to some extent, as its defensive value has helped compensate for some of Dugtrio’s flaws in the builder. While Dugtrio is by no means “broken”, it is very synergistic with in-meta sets right now like Calm Mind Clefable. Although there will always be some unreliability when using Dugtrio, it usually doesn’t have too difficult of a time doing its job. Personally, I’d see it above Roserade and below Kingdra in the current iteration of the VR.

Magnezone: A- —> A

Magnezone has a lot going for it, even outside its trapping potential. It’s got great typing, insane power with its great offensive Electric-typing, and a shockingly versatile set of tools at its disposal. Choice Scarf Magnezone has seen increased usage, which is great not only to enable a lot of defensive teams but also complete offensive ones as well. It can revenge kill threats like Gengar, Lucario, Infernape, as well as combine very nicely with defensive Pokemon like WishTect Jirachi, Calm Mind Clefable, and Swampert. I’d just put it at the bottom of A rank probably.

Gastrodon: C —> B

As shown in SPL, Gastrodon has a specific niche in the metagame. Sticky Hold enables it to run an effective Curse set that can switch into Clefable nicely, be immune to Trick and Knock Off, and take advantage of its great defensive typing + access to Recover. I’d definitely put it next to Quagsire somewhere, as those Pokemon are extremely comparable, with each having access to a unique ability to distinguish the two.

Nidoking: UR —> C-

While it hasn’t really been proven too much, I think Nidoking’s actually pretty decent. Think of it like a Nidoqueen that can outspeed Heatran and Adamant Lucario that can be EVd to have quite decent defensive utility regardless with its typing. In addition, its speed enables it to reliably shut down Skarmory with Taunt and even threaten it with some offensive attacks, meaning unlike Nidoqueen, it is less of a liability. I liked a set that was something like Taunt, Toxic Spikes, Super Fang, and Earthquake, which also enabled it to threaten defensive teams pretty nicely (especially Clefable). Definitely consider putting Nidoking in C-.

Walrein: UR —> C-

Walrein’s got enough of a niche to where it definitely deserves to be on the VR. It has high potential if you can execute a strategy around it well.

Drops:
Starmie: (Lower in A+)

Only going to specify Starmie when it comes to dropping something within a rank. Starmie is honestly not that favorable in the meta right now, evidenced by its significantly reduced usage rate and 20% winrate. Starmie is still a fantastic Pokemon for all the reasons it has always been, but it can be a bit of a liability, as it can force you into awkward conundrums with Tyranitar and with new trends like double Stealth Rock users, people are accounting for Starmie’s presence significantly more. In addition, Latias has definitely shifted the metagame slightly in favor of stacking Spikes-immune Pokemon together and creating structures more resistant to hazards overall in favor of Starmie. Latias is also quite a nice soft check versus Starmie itself. That said, I’d only drop Starmie like 2 or 3 spots within A+, but I really do not think it’s “more viable” than Pokemon like Rotom-A and Latias.

Infernape: A+ —> A

Infernape is a behemoth of a Pokemon, but Latias’s presence has caught up to it. Not necessarily that Latias itself is a check to Infernape therefore Infernape is worse, but Dugtrio’s surge in usage combined with the fact that there’s a lot more counterplay to Infernape than meets the eye definitely has discouraged some people from using it. Choice Band Infernape is awesome, but you hardly see it right now because when you use Infernape, you very often want to pack Grass Knot for Swampert or even Hidden Power Ice for Dragonite and Gliscor. It’s still fantastic, but having it lead the A rank of Pokemon feels right.

Nidoqueen: A- —> B+ (or lowest point in A-)

Nidoqueen is damn good at what it does; however, I think it has many undesirable traits that not only contributed to its low usage this SPL but also make it "less viable" than the rest of the A- Pokemon. While it's great at setting Toxic Spikes, it's not good at keeping them up versus Starmie teams alone. In addition, its power is extremely lacking, and even with some room for creativity in its moveset, Nidoqueen really suffers from 4MSS. It can often be deadweight vs defensive teams and the fact that its standard set is setup fodder for Skarmory makes it less desirable to use overall. I don't think it is "more viable" than options like Milotic and Roserade. I think Nidoqueen requires way more support to work effectively, or alternatively you have to very much go all in on a full hazards strategy. I see it more as a B+ Pokemon with Hippowdon (even though I could see Hippowdon being A- as well).

Shaymin: B+ —> B

I’ve honestly tried everything to justify Shaymin. Its Life Orb set is good, but it’s not that consistent because Shaymin overrelies on Seed Flare to really dismantle defensive teams. The imperfect accuracy, low PP, and somewhat low odds for a SpD drop mean it often doesn’t quite pack the punch that it should. Leech Seed Shaymin is extremely hard to make work consistently. It has its great matchups, but something like Leech Seed Breloom is just much more desirable right now, as it has almost all the benefits of Leech Seed Shaymin but it’s much better versus defensive teams. Breloom is one of the only Leech Seed users that can force out Clefable with ease, which is such a important trait to have. Clefable is not a Pokemon that you can reliably remove from a game, meaning Leech Seed Shaymin always has the possibility of being dead weight. In addition, having to choose between Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Ice can be very annoying. Pairing Leech Seed Shaymin with Magnezone is no easy feat, as this core is ridiculously restrictive and often creates a significant Heatran issue. Celebi, which is the most comparable Pokemon to Shaymin, simply has far more utility. Shaymin either just above or just below Heracross is more representative of its place in the metagame. I also want to add that I don't think it was even used once in SPL, which is not a coincidence.

Medicham: C- —> UR

I think Medicham is an inferior Pokemon. Sure, it can function as a Fake Out lead and win versus Machamp and Empoleon, but I think even with that it’s difficult to justify. Some Empoleon run Chople Berry and Protect in the lead slot, and Machamp lead isn’t as incredibly common anymore. Lum Berry Gallade beats Machamp just as convincingly and is a bit more threatening to Empoleon overall, as it can force those structures to choose between Stealth Rock and Hydro Pump. I know no one really cares about this Pokemon, but I figured I’d throw that in.
 
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I will make some more shifts in the future, but for now, these are definitely worthy changes to be made:
Latias: A —> A+
Latias is a ridiculously good Pokemon. Boasting #2 in usage during this SPL and a 53% win rate, it’s no coincidence that it has been featured on more than half of the teams used this season. Latias is easily one of the best Choice Scarf users due to its incredible Speed tier enabling it to outspeed +2 AgiliGross, +2 DD Gyara, and its extremely high customizability. In addition, it finds many opportunities to pivot in as a revenge killer because of its great typing and ability, and even with Timid its Draco Meteor and Thunderbolt are more than powerful enough to do the job. Other utility moves like Trick, Thunder Wave, and Healing Wish are extremely effective on these sets. Yes, it can be trapped by Tyranitar, but I honestly find that I get great use out of Scarf Lati every time I use it. It’s just so ensuring versus opposing offensive teams and even stuff like Rain. Of course, in addition to its Scarf set it has a slew of other potent sets it can utilize, like Choice Specs, Calm Mind, and bulky ones with moves like Toxic and Reflect that have seen some usage this SPL. I rate Latias very highly personally, better than the likes of Starmie, Rotom-A, Skarmory, Breloom, and Infernape, but regardless I think Latias in A is not representative of how viable it is in the current metagame.
I think Latias has finally earned it on the strength of its Scarf set. Some of the utility sets have shown themselves to be more consistent than the Calm Mind sweepers so that helps.

Swampert: A —> A+
Swampert is an incredibly solid option for almost any team. Defensive sets have been on the rise again, as people are finding more creative ways to circumvent stall weaknesses while using it (ie. Scarf Magnezone, Calm Mind Clefable, etc). It’s a fantastic option both offensively and defensively, and its typing is incredibly desirable right now. I think it should be the bottom of A+, and I’d say it’s probably better than Infernape, simply due to the fact that I feel like you always get something great out of Swampert regardless of its shortcomings.
Agreed.

Clefable: A —> A+
Clefable is the best it has ever been. People are discovering new unique sets like Life Orb, and Bold Calm Mind seems to have skyrocketed in usage, as it not only combines immaculately with Dugtrio, but it has a tremendous amount of utility versus both offensive and defensive teams. It functions as a soft check to Dragon Dance Dragonite and a very solid one versus Dragon Dance Gyarados. Defensive teams can have a very hard time dealing with Calm Mind Clefable over a long game. I’d put it in the bottom of A+; Clefable is just that fucking good.
Also agreed.

Bottom of A+ now goes: Breloom, Lati, Pert, Clef, Infernape. This is not a knock against Ape - we just haven't been seeing as much of them, so this more accurately reflects the current meta. I personally think it's just a matter of time before it reminds everyone how obscenely dangerous it is.

Dugtrio: B+ —> A-
Dugtrio saw increased usage and success this SPL, and it’s definitely not a coincidence. I think Latias has enabled Dugtrio to some extent, as its defensive value has helped compensate for some of Dugtrio’s flaws in the builder. While Dugtrio is by no means “broken”, it is very synergistic with in-meta sets right now like Calm Mind Clefable. Although there will always be some unreliability when using Dugtrio, it usually doesn’t have too difficult of a time doing its job. Personally, I’d see it above Roserade and below Kingdra in the current iteration of the VR.
I agree, Dug has established itself to be a cut above the B+ Pokemon, so it's moved up. However, it does have its well-known major drawbacks, so I refrained from moving it up too high - I think between Milotic and Blissey is fine.

Magnezone: A- —> A
Magnezone has a lot going for it, even outside its trapping potential. It’s got great typing, insane power with its great offensive Electric-typing, and a shockingly versatile set of tools at its disposal. Choice Scarf Magnezone has seen increased usage, which is great not only to enable a lot of defensive teams but also complete offensive ones as well. It can revenge kill threats like Gengar, Lucario, Infernape, as well as combine very nicely with defensive Pokemon like WishTect Jirachi, Calm Mind Clefable, and Swampert. I’d just put it at the bottom of A rank probably.
Here is where I finally disagree. Zone has its place, but I don't think its standing in the meta has changed that much to where it was before. I think the company in A- is an accurate representation. However, I do think it deserves to be the top Pokemon in that rank, up from #2, and so it is.

Gastrodon: C —> B
As shown in SPL, Gastrodon has a specific niche in the metagame. Sticky Hold enables it to run an effective Curse set that can switch into Clefable nicely, be immune to Trick and Knock Off, and take advantage of its great defensive typing + access to Recover. I’d definitely put it next to Quagsire somewhere, as those Pokemon are extremely comparable, with each having access to a unique ability to distinguish the two.
I'm glad Gastro is finally seeing usage. However, I think the top slot in B- where it would be just ahead of the similarly-supported Cresselia is fairer - for now at least, to avoid too huge an immediate jump.

Nidoking: UR —> C-
While it hasn’t really been proven too much, I think Nidoking’s actually pretty decent. Think of it like a Nidoqueen that can outspeed Heatran and Adamant Lucario that can be EVd to have quite decent defensive utility regardless with its typing. In addition, its speed enables it to reliably shut down Skarmory with Taunt and even threaten it with some offensive attacks, meaning unlike Nidoqueen, it is less of a liability. I liked a set that was something like Taunt, Toxic Spikes, Super Fang, and Earthquake, which also enabled it to threaten defensive teams pretty nicely (especially Clefable). Definitely consider putting Nidoking in C-.
He's worth trying. Not a crime to add him considering some of the C- Pokes.

Walrein: UR —> C-
Walrein’s got enough of a niche to where it definitely deserves to be on the VR. It has high potential if you can execute a strategy around it well.
Yes indeed...

Starmie: (Lower in A+)

Only going to specify Starmie when it comes to dropping something within a rank. Starmie is honestly not that favorable in the meta right now, evidenced by its significantly reduced usage rate and 20% winrate. Starmie is still a fantastic Pokemon for all the reasons it has always been, but it can be a bit of a liability, as it can force you into awkward conundrums with Tyranitar and with new trends like double Stealth Rock users, people are accounting for Starmie’s presence significantly more. In addition, Latias has definitely shifted the metagame slightly in favor of stacking Spikes-immune Pokemon together and creating structures more resistant to hazards overall in favor of Starmie. Latias is also quite a nice soft check versus Starmie itself. That said, I’d only drop Starmie like 2 or 3 spots within A+, but I really do not think it’s “more viable” than Pokemon like Rotom-A and Latias.
This is a bit of an Infernape situation for me - I think Starmie has a lot of potential to mess the meta up, but that's not what we're seeing right now, and Starmie has slipped. I put it in between Skarmory and Breloom - I still find it generally ahead of Latias given that even if Mie doesn't do so well on its own, getting spin off is big and can somewhat make up for the fact that it's reluctant to switch in in some battles, whereas Lati doesn't have that same kind of utility.

Infernape: A+ —> A
Infernape is a behemoth of a Pokemon, but Latias’s presence has caught up to it. Not necessarily that Latias itself is a check to Infernape therefore Infernape is worse, but Dugtrio’s surge in usage combined with the fact that there’s a lot more counterplay to Infernape than meets the eye definitely has discouraged some people from using it. Choice Band Infernape is awesome, but you hardly see it right now because when you use Infernape, you very often want to pack Grass Knot for Swampert or even Hidden Power Ice for Dragonite and Gliscor. It’s still fantastic, but having it lead the A rank of Pokemon feels right.
Speaking of... anyway I think this is definitely too harsh. Dropping it within A+ is fine, even to the lowest slot, but no further. It absolutely needs to stand separately from the Pokemon in A. It has an entirely unique place in the metagame, being explosive like nothing else, and it is too important to drop any lower.

Nidoqueen: A- —> B+ (or lowest point in A-)
Nidoqueen is damn good at what it does; however, I think it has many undesirable traits that not only contributed to its low usage this SPL but also make it "less viable" than the rest of the A- Pokemon. While it's great at setting Toxic Spikes, it's not good at keeping them up versus Starmie teams alone. In addition, its power is extremely lacking, and even with some room for creativity in its moveset, Nidoqueen really suffers from 4MSS. It can often be deadweight vs defensive teams and the fact that its standard set is setup fodder for Skarmory makes it less desirable to use overall. I don't think it is "more viable" than options like Milotic and Roserade. I think Nidoqueen requires way more support to work effectively, or alternatively you have to very much go all in on a full hazards strategy. I see it more as a B+ Pokemon with Hippowdon (even though I could see Hippowdon being A- as well).
Eh, I'm still not sure about this. The (anti-Starmie) support isn't any different from what you'd generally need with Skarmory. Speaking of Skarm, opposing ones set up all over defensive teams regardless. I also don't really find Queen to have moveset problems - it does what it needs to do fairly consistently. Hell, I don't even think it needs TSpikes necessarily. It's still useful as hell and I don't think it should drop lower because of how key it remains in the metagame - it's definitely more impactful than Milo and Rade.

Shaymin: B+ —> B
I’ve honestly tried everything to justify Shaymin. Its Life Orb set is good, but it’s not that consistent because Shaymin overrelies on Seed Flare to really dismantle defensive teams. The imperfect accuracy, low PP, and somewhat low odds for a SpD drop mean it often doesn’t quite pack the punch that it should. Leech Seed Shaymin is extremely hard to make work consistently. It has its great matchups, but something like Leech Seed Breloom is just much more desirable right now, as it has almost all the benefits of Leech Seed Shaymin but it’s much better versus defensive teams. Breloom is one of the only Leech Seed users that can force out Clefable with ease, which is such a important trait to have. Clefable is not a Pokemon that you can reliably remove from a game, meaning Leech Seed Shaymin always has the possibility of being dead weight. In addition, having to choose between Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Ice can be very annoying. Pairing Leech Seed Shaymin with Magnezone is no easy feat, as this core is ridiculously restrictive and often creates a significant Heatran issue. Celebi, which is the most comparable Pokemon to Shaymin, simply has far more utility. Shaymin either just above or just below Heracross is more representative of its place in the metagame. I also want to add that I don't think it was even used once in SPL, which is not a coincidence.
I still think Shaymin has absolutely tremendous upside, but there's no denying that its downsides can be very frustrating. Until it makes a return, it will be beneath Raikou.

Medicham: C- —> UR
I think Medicham is an inferior Pokemon. Sure, it can function as a Fake Out lead and win versus Machamp and Empoleon, but I think even with that it’s difficult to justify. Some Empoleon run Chople Berry and Protect in the lead slot, and Machamp lead isn’t as incredibly common anymore. Lum Berry Gallade beats Machamp just as convincingly and is a bit more threatening to Empoleon overall, as it can force those structures to choose between Stealth Rock and Hydro Pump. I know no one really cares about this Pokemon, but I figured I’d throw that in.
No complaints here.

Everything is updated. Looking forward to more posts!
 
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Blastoise: UR -> C-
Lead ranking: UR-> B-


I mentioned Blastoise for a lead slot earlier, but received no response. As such, I am requesting it again, but this time with more information & references to back it up.

Blastoise acts as an effective anti lead, combining Empoleon's bulk and access to priority, with Starmie's spinning capabilities. Hydro pump is capable of 2HKOing common leads such as Metagross, Swampert, Jirachi and Machamp [1], while its pairing with ice beam lets Blastoise 1HKO Heatran, Dragonite, and Gliscor. Aqua jet finishes off frail opponents such as Azelf, Aerodactyl, and Infernape, while rapid spin removes entry hazards, filling a unique niche.

Although it possesses a useful move poll, Blastoise's speed is outclassed by Starmie [2], and it fails to deal much damage to bulky grass & water types. As such, I request it be considered for C- and B- ranks, in usage and lead tiers respectively.

[1] https://www.smogon.com/dex/dp/pokemon/blastoise/ou/
[2] www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLOne_ZaKns
 
Flygon A-A+(Probably the bottom of A+)

Scarfgon is an utterly fantastic Pokémon in the DPP OU metagame.It does well against the top three Pokémon in this VR(Jirachi,Tyranitar,Heatran) and is amazing paired with Magneton to trap its biggest counter in Skarmory aswell as the less common Bronzong.Not a lot of Pokémon want to swap in to it because Outrage and Earthquake hit so hard.This thing rules on Dragmag teams it’s not even funny.Having a Stealth Rock resistance aswell as an immunity to Earthquake,Spikes and Toxic Spikes makes it so hard to wear down especially when it’s checks like Gyrados,Suicune,Milotic and Swampert tend to get worn down.The biggest problem with Flygon is the fact that Latias can give it competition and Outrage licking it in which your opponent can capitalise on
E07C4F80-56D1-4C3E-83BB-9E35F8C43BB5.png


Edit:Scarf Flygon would also be great against Latios if it was OU.I am actually currently working on a Yotube video on why Latios is balanced in OU(No SDew ofcourse lol)
 
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I dont know anywhere else to post this but,would it be time to test Latias brother,Latios in DPP OU?It has been 11 years since Latios was first voted Uber in March 2009 but Latias was retested and while Latios is extremely powerful and would most likely be S rank I think we should try again 11 years later,Heck we could even make a separate”Latios Ladder” to see.I just finished the Youtube video in which I explain why I think it should be in DPP OU.It has a giant pursuit weakness and is incredibly weak to things like Passho Tyranitar,Blissey,Scarf Tyranitar,Scizor and Scarf Flygon.If anyone would like to watch it i can link it
 
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Can Blastoise be included in the leads list? It acts like a weaker Empoleon, but with access to rapid spin. The general strategy is to hydropump or ice beam on turn one (Dragonite cannot OHKO Blastoise), then follow it up with either rapid spin or aqua jet to finish off focus sash opponents.
I have read your latter analysis of Blastoise as a lead, but I want to discuss its viability in further details in a more general setting considering the current metagame.

Blastoise's main problem is that he is outclassed in every niche he has.

As an utility Rapid Spin user, he is outclassed by Starmie due to its better speed and access to an instant recovery move in Recover, which Blastoise critically lacks. This, for the most part, offsets Starmie's inferior bulk as Blastoise is worn down much more quickly by entry hazards and toxic. Starmie has also access to a wider movepool (Dual screens, Thunderbolt, ...). Forretress is also one of the better options due to it being capable of using both rapid spin and spikes. Forretress has more opportunities to use rapid spin because of its amazing bulk and typing walling a number of threats in the metagame (forcing, along with Scizor, other mons to start carrying fire type coverage move such as Jirachi and T-Tar Fire-Punch or Magnezone HP-Fire) Blastoise can't possibly take care of.

Even then, Milotic and Vaporeon function better as bulky water-types than Blastoise does. Milotic has also access to a recovery move, a wider movepool, has a greater special bulk and an ability that allows it to function as a statuts absorber (mostly burns to prevent physical sweepers from being crippled), boosting its defense by 50% along the way. Vaporeon, while having a less reliable recovery in the form of Wish, is superior to Blastoise due to its greater special bulk, way more useful ability and higher special atk which lets it hit common threats harder.

Blastoise is a nice 'mon that possess very good qualities (bulky water-type with access to Rapid Spin) , but in my books he firmly belongs in UU where the 'mons mentionned above won't overshadow him. As a lead though, he might be worth a shot. He should be around C/C- in the lead VR.
 
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I have read your latter analysis of Blastoise as a lead, but I want to discuss its viability in further details in a more general setting considering the current metagame.

Blastoise's main problem is that he is outclassed in every niche he has.

As an utility Rapid Spin user, he is outclassed by Starmie due to its better speed and access to an instant recovery move in Recover, which Blastoise critically lacks. This, for the most part, offsets Starmie's inferior bulk as Blastoise is worn down much more quickly by entry hazards and toxic. Starmie has also access to a wider movepool (Dual screens, Thunderbolt, ...). Forretress is also one of the better options due to it being capable of using both rapid spin and spikes. Forretress has more opportunities to use rapid spin because of its amazing bulk and typing walling a number of threats in the metagame (forcing, along with Scizor, other mons to start carrying fire type coverage move such as Jirachi and T-Tar Fire-Punch or Magnezone HP-Fire) Blastoise can't possibly take care of.

Even then, Milotic and Vaporeon function better as bulky water-types than Blastoise does. Milotic has also access to a recovery move, a wider movepool, has a greater special bulk and an ability that allows it to function as a statuts absorber (mostly burns to prevent physical sweepers from being crippled), boosting its defense by 50% along the way. Vaporeon, while having a less reliable recovery in the form of Wish, is superior to Blastoise due to its greater special bulk, way more useful ability and higher special atk which lets it hit common threats harder.

Blastoise is a nice 'mon that possess very good qualities (bulky water-type with access to Rapid Spin) , but in my books he firmly belongs in UU where the 'mons mentionned above won't overshadow him. As a lead though, he might be worth a shot. He should be around C/C- in the lead VR.
I think you have missed the point. It was written in my original post that Blastoise is outclassed as a bulky water, and rapid spinner.

The niche Blastoise fills better than other Pokémon is rapid spin+priority. This let’s Blastoise remove hazards and finish leads carrying a focus sash. It’s meant to be run on teams that can not fit rapid spin anywhere else, and want an easier time dealing with suicide leads.

An example where this happens, would be on a team that normally runs Empoleon as a lead, but the owner saw a need to run rapid spin somewhere, and didn’t want to change their team too much.

I agree with all your comparisons where Blastoise is outclassed. Which is why I suggested it be added to the bottom of the lead list.
 
I think you have missed the point. It was written in my original post that Blastoise is outclassed as a bulky water, and rapid spinner.

The niche Blastoise fills better than other Pokémon is rapid spin+priority. This let’s Blastoise remove hazards and finish leads carrying a focus sash. It’s meant to be run on teams that can not fit rapid spin anywhere else, and want an easier time dealing with suicide leads.

An example where this happens, would be on a team that normally runs Empoleon as a lead, but the owner saw a need to run rapid spin somewhere, and didn’t want to change their team too much.

I agree with all your comparisons where Blastoise is outclassed. Which is why I suggested it be added to the bottom of the lead list.
Fair enough.
I also support putting Blastoise at the bottom of the lead VR.

I dont know anywhere else to post this but,would it be time to test Latias brother,Latios in DPP OU?It has been 11 years since Latios was first voted Uber in March 2009 but Latias was retested and while Latios is extremely powerful and would most likely be S rank I think we should try again 11 years later,Heck we could even make a separate”Latios Ladder” to see.I just finished the Youtube video in which I explain why I think it should be in DPP OU.It has a giant pursuit weakness and is incredibly weak to things like Passho Tyranitar,Blissey,Scarf Tyranitar,Scizor and Scarf Flygon.If anyone would like to watch it i can link it
It would be interesting to have a suspect test on Latios.
While I can imagine he will likely be at the very top of S-Rank, I do not feel like he'll be overcentralizing.

He makes the perfect Choice Specs user with an excellent speed but his damage output is not something that we've never seen.
I did some calcs to see what Latios could do against the most prominent threats in the metagame, here there are:

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi (Scarf Jirachi): 170-201 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Grass Knot vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar (Choice Band T-Tar) in Sand: 262-310 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross (Lead Metagross): 215-253 (59 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is impressive, but I can see T-Tar and Blissey being consistent counters to Latios just as they are for Latias, with Jirachi capable of going head to head with it:

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 530-626 (175.4 - 207.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

- 252 Atk Jirachi (Scarf Jirachi) Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Again, This is all hypothetical and I might be completely wrong here.

Have a good day.
 
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Sputnik

Bono My Tires are Deceased
is a Contributor Alumnus
:aggron:
So I'm pretty new to the tier, and I'm sure that much more experienced players have considered this, but I am interested to know why Aggron isn't currently somewhere in the C to C- range on the VR. Some folks in the discord (which is an incredibly useful resource to new players, thanks y'all) helped me build a paraspam team with Choice Band Aggron, and it is a potentially devastating option if you play your cards right. It definitely suffers from the fact that a couple of its defensive checks (Swampert and Bronzong being the big ones) are common options, and man that defensive typing can be exploited by almost every offensive option in the tier. But with paralyze and hazard support the thing is an absolute monster. I'm not gonna pretend that Aggron is some undiscovered treasure in the current metagame. Far from it. But it seems like it could be worthy of a spot lower down on the VR, and if there's a reason as to why it isn't then I would be very interested to know why.
 

SFG

Snom is Fucking Great
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Latios: why sould it stay banned from DPP OU


In front of the many arguing posts for a Latios unban, I decided to post my opinion about it. As usual, I don't pretend to have universal truth!

The fact is Latios is just too powerful for DPP OU and can threaten 99 percent of the current metagame.
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi (Scarf Jirachi): 170-201 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Jirachi is one of the most bulky Pokemon in this tier and he resists DM, but he can switch on Latios only once. Even if it's an offensive one, that seems just incredibly powerful. Furthermore, even Spécially Defensive Jirachi... isn't a switch in:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery


- 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Grass Knot vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar (Choice Band T-Tar) in Sand: 262-310 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 229-270 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (great chances to 2HKO even after the drop, guaranteed 2HKO with rocks)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 252-297 (65.2 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To be honest, I don' really understand the aim of this calc in your post. This shows that Band Ttar can't even switch on DM and pursuit, like it works with Latias. Thereby, Ttar isn't a switch in to Latios.

In fact, we can do the same conclusion with a large majority of Latias usualy checks:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 291-343 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 206-244 (61.6 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Bronzong: 170-200 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Bronzong: 126-149 (37.2 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Bronzong: 139-164 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 92+ SpD Bronzong: 186-220 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



Finally, Latios' best switch ins are Blissey (which is 2HKO'ed by DM after SR + 3 spikes) and Spé Def Empoleon (which come only twice). Unban Latios would mean you have to play on of this two (and we saw that this isn't even a guarantee to handle with Latios), or sacrifice a Pokemon to be able to trap Latios. This is definitely broken, brainless and unhealthy for me.That's why I think there no reason to unban Latios and he it wouldn't bring anything to ther tier, except instability. Furthermore, I didn't even talked about the DD one, which would be an enormous threat to. This post isn't complete at all, and it would take hours to detail, but I think it's a good summary of why Latios should stay banned from DPP OU.

Thanks for reading, and have a nice day!
 
A brief explanation of my rationale behind this starting point:

Jirachi and Tyranitar are the only S ranks thanks to their unrivaled impact on the landscape of DPP through their near-irreplaceable utility on both offense and defense. Jirachi dictates so much of the metagame with its numerous powerful Iron Head sets, while Tyranitar's sand, monstrous bulk and versatility are as critical as ever.

Breloom and Infernape remaining in A+ with Latias around may seem strange but I assure you they deserve this rank. If Lati's running Leftovers it's going to get Pursuited with ridiculous ease; remember that Pursuit was quite a crucial component of supporting these two even before Lati. If it's not running Leftovers it's not as easy to immediately Pursuit but it also struggles to even switch into Ape and Loom to begin with, getting thumped by their attacks with rocks and sand. This applies mostly to the increasingly popular special MixApe with Leftovers, meaning it's not getting worn down while hitting Latias on the switch, since the Band sets of course pack U-turn. Latias hardly impedes either of these two from messing with the popular defensive teams and feasting on the offensive water trend - Breloom is self explanatory, while Infernape enjoys the waters losing bulk, allowing it to more easily pummel them with Grass Knot or Banded CC. Both of them of course have Mach Punch, which is valuable as ever.

These flaws of Latias' are why I have it as low as A as opposed to the general consensus of A+ or even S. I really don't think it's all that good. The detriments outlined in the previous paragraph are a big reason why - if it's choiced it gets worn down switching into attacks so Pursuit isn't even that necessary, without Specs it is weak as hell, and even with Specs it gets walled quite easily by what were already some of the best, most suffocating defensive Pokemon and combinations in the meta. If you play aggressively enough to where it's not eating attacks as it comes in, then it becomes a much better Draco bomber, but the same could be said for Dragonite, which is also a lot more punishing in its versatility.

Speaking of A, Swampert unleashing its offensive side has propelled it to a far more prominent place in the meta and earned it the topmost rank here ahead of some really important Pokemon, which speaks to how effective it's become. Gyarados is ranked highly since in addition to CB and DD sets being fearsome weapons, Intimidate alongside its excellent defensive typing is crucial in giving offensive teams a backbone. The power of semistall has seen Clefable, Gliscor, Nidoqueen and Bronzong earn A rank as well, with Zong also being great on offense thanks to its ability to thwart threatening Pokes and launch a powerful offensive assault in return.

Former A+ constituents Zapdos and Dragonite have dropped significantly in metagame impact and thus in the ranks as well. This is not because they are not excellent Pokemon, but because they are not as easy to use - they have huge potential upside but can be stonewalled (Zap) or worn down incredibly quickly (Nite) by these powerful semistall teams. They also face competition with Latias and are sometimes checked by it. Personally, I think people will remember the tools these two have and as a result just how fearsome they can be, but for now they are more at home in A.

Magnezone's seen a large spike in general usability, and thus leads off A- rank. Killing Skarm is crucial with how strong semistall is, it can take out or at least severely cripple the Jirachi variants that pressure the metagame so hard, and with Magnet Rise, it beats defensive Bronzong. We even see a decent number of defensive Empoleon these days. This is a ton of utility, and it's now got Specs Latias to take advantage of this steel killing.

Milotic, Dugtrio and Uxie are now truly parts of the metagame; they are effective, people know it, and thus they deserve B+ rank.
So I just had an interesting conversation with someone saying that Clefable is 100% better than Blissey. I want to say that no Clefable is not bad but! I do feel like Blissey has some advantages on some teams. I brought this topic up with some of my high ladder friends and they seem to think that Bliss is generally better (they could be wrong). So do you think that Clefable is 100% better than Blissey?
 
So I just had an interesting conversation with someone saying that Clefable is 100% better than Blissey. I want to say that no Clefable is not bad but! I do feel like Blissey has some advantages on some teams. I brought this topic up with some of my high ladder friends and they seem to think that Bliss is generally better (they could be wrong). So do you think that Clefable is 100% better than Blissey?
I'm the one he had the argument with, and idk why you puttin words into my mouth kiddo. I said clef is better overall, which it is.
 
Great timing; I actually just made a video on this very topic that should hopefully clear things up.


In short, yes, Clefable is better overall, but Blissey is still a great Pokemon and it repeatedly proves itself when it shows up in tournament play. I've used it a lot and think it perfectly facilitates some of the most effective bulky offense teams out there.
 
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