Gen 4 [DPP OU] Hail stall revamp

Are hail teams viable in dpp ou?

  • - Yes, they can be strong, as this team is

  • - Yes, they can be strong, but this team isn't

  • - Yes, they can be viable, as this team is, but never strong

  • - Yes, they can be viable, but this team isn't

  • - No, they aren't


Results are only viewable after voting.
Hi everyone, I’m Denojap and I’m Italian, so please keep that in mind if the wording of this text happens to feel unnatural at times.
I’m a casual player since 2018, and some months ago I came up with the idea of building a hail team, because, you know, hail is crashing down during the battle against Red in HGSS, so I consider it the “ultimate” weather condition.
I initially came across Lady Bug’s old RMTs from 2009 and 2010, and I was glad to see that leading with Abomasnow was a viable idea, since that was exactly what I wanted to do. Also, I liked the fact that both teams had some unusual Pokémon in them.
Lady Bug’s chosen approach was stall, hail favorite strategy as stated in the dedicated Smogon article, and I saw absolutely nothing wrong with that, since most of the times you’ll start the battle switching Abomasnow out and you’ll need some bulky Pokémon to take the hit.
The problem is that the flaws Lady Bug’s teams naturally sported add to the ones related to the changing of time in the DPP OU metagame, letting those builds completely unable to survive in a modern competitive environment. The team from 2009, featuring Abomasnow, Nidoqueen, Gyarados, Blissey, Hitmontop and Rotom-F, can’t literally touch Gengar, has some prominent issues with Dragonite, defensive Rotom-A and Clefable (which wasn’t even a thing back in the days), and relies too much on Rotom-F to counter common threats like Gyarados, Skarmory, Metagross and Bronzong. The squad from 2010, consisting of Abomasnow, Nidoqueen, Skarmory, Blissey, Starmie and Spiritomb, is considerably weak to DDTar, Breloom, Nasty Plot Infernape, Paraflinch or mixed Jirachi and once again Dragonite, besides automatically losing to Clefable and depending too much on Starmie to beat Gyarados and Skarmory.
I know those issues particularly well, since I personally tested the teams for quite a while, only racking up underwhelming results.
The presence of Clefable in the OU tier is definitely the most notable change in the last years, so I found myself trying to edit the 2009 team, which at least had a Fighting-type Pokémon like Hitmontop in it. I eventually came up with a squad I can’t really improve any further, boasting amazing synergy, solid defensive coverage and even some nice combos.
The novelty of my build brought to a not-so-short learning process, but in the end I hit the threshold for the Silver Guts Achievement more than once, peaking at 1393 elo and 64,9% GXE.
I know I’m not the only one in love with hail, since a lot of people used to enjoy Lady Bug’s team and praise his originality, so I’m glad to share my work with all of the DPP OU community.
Obviously, thank you in advance for your comments.

HAIL STALL BY DENOJAP

Following in Lady Bug’s footsteps, I gave nicknames to all of my Pokémon, and I’d kindly ask you not to change them if you’re going to use this team. The nicknames are based on the Yu-Gi-Oh! Ice Barrier archetype.

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Grungnir (Abomasnow) @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Wood Hammer
- Ice Shard

Setting the hail as soon as possible is crucial to start crippling opposing Pokémon from the get-go. This is by far Abomasnow’s best set, because it makes the green-and-white Yeti surprisingly durable with the help of Leftovers, Leech Seed (a very spammable move, which also has an important role in supporting the team) and Protect, while letting it hit hard with Wood Hammer and effectively revenge kill Dragonite, Flygon, Gliscor, Latias, Togekiss, Roserade, Shaymin and weakened opponents with Ice Shard (Protect, and possibly Leech Seed, can be useful to stall out some more HP before actually using priority to close the deal).
Lady Bug had a specially defensive spread, but I don’t find it so useful, because Abomasnow would lose the ability of revenge killing and would leave the team weak to the aforementioned Pokémon (Gliscor excluded). Plus, it usually switches in only on bulky Water-types, Gliscor or Hippowdon, so it really doesn’t need any extra Special Defense investment, whereas the power bonus to Wood Hammer is really helpful, especially against Blissey, Clefable and the sandy hippopotamus.
Matchups-wise, Abomasnow isn’t certainly the best lead in the tier, as it only wins against Swampert, Hippowdon, Empoleon and Starmie, but it still has Protect for prediction against the likes of Azelf and Jirachi. Also, I tried leading with something else, but the sentient Christmas tree is just too functional to give up on opening a game with it.
20 Speed EVs are here to outspeed Clefable, standard 16 Speed Swampert and 0-8 Speed Tyranitar.

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Gantala (Nidoqueen) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic Spikes
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower

Nidoqueen has a lot of different roles, the first of which is to set entry hazards. Stealth Rock is important to let Abomasnow revenge kill Dragonite, while Toxic Spikes just make stall-oriented strategies super effective. The last two slots feature Earth Power, a reliable STAB, and Flamethrower, the only Fire-type move in my party and a solid weapon against Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor and Magnet Rise Magnezone.
Lady Bug used a Relaxed nature with Earthquake in place of Earth Power, but the extra Speed is invaluable to be faster than Adamant Rhyperior, 128 Speed Machamp, SubSeed Breloom (Nidoqueen would otherwise lose to it), Skarmory, some Metagross and 4 Speed Heatran (the 16 Speed EVs serve this specific purpose), while hitting Tyranitar harder isn’t needed, because I already have a really solid plan for it in Hitmontop, with Vaporeon as an emergency check and Toxic Spikes as back up. Furthermore, using a Bold nature instead of a Relaxed one has some minor additional benefits, such as taking less damage from Dynamic Punch confusion and suffering less from being tricked either Choice Scarf or Choice Specs.
Speaking of which, Nidoqueen is clearly my main Trick absorber: it doesn’t really mind being choiced, and trading Black Sludge to an opponent can cause severe damage, especially in conjunction with hail, three Protect-mons (Abomasnow, Vaporeon and Umbreon) and Abomasnow’s Ice Shard. The toothless dinosaur also makes for an excellent pivot into U-turn thanks to Poison Point, and really pulls its weight as my only Heracross counter as well as my best answer to Lucario, SubPunch Breloom and non-lead Machamp. Nidoqueen is great against physical Infernape too, and can always come in on a predicted Close Combat or U-turn (should Poison Point activate), so it’s basically my first switch-in on the burning ape if the opponent sends it out in the early game.
Last but not least, Nidoqueen serves the purpose of absorbing Toxic Spikes, which would otherwise be really problematic for this team, even with Hitmontop spinning them away.

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Dewloren (Vaporeon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 28 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA
- Wish
- Protect
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Vaporeon is here instead of Lady Bug’s RestTalk Gyarados, which I found way too passive, only being able to check really few threats. Wish support is great and combos well with the other Protect-mons, Surf is the obligatory STAB move and Hidden Power Electric is for Gyarados, which Vaporeon counters pretty well; as a bonus, it lets the watery dog touch Water-types and completely own Empoleon.
Vaporeon is one of the best answers to Infernape in the metagame, my only true Heatran counter (in case of emergency, I can tank a hit with Hitmontop if it’s at full health and retaliate back hard with Close Combat, or I could also stall it out with Umbreon), my main Gyarados and Metagross check (I try to keep Rotom-F concealed until Tyranitar is down, while still maintaining insurance against Metagross’s Explosion with Protect) and my go-to switch-in on Bronzong as well as lead Aerodactyl and Azelf (except for physical choice ones). Other than that, the Water-type Eevelution has a crucial role alongside Abomasnow in easing the rain offense matchup, as it is the bane of every rain team.
The EV spread emphasizes on Vaporeon’s mixed wall capabilities, and keeping Special Defense one point higher than Defense makes sure Download won’t boost Porygon-Z’s Special Attack. 12 Speed EVs are spent to outspeed 8 Speed Scizor and opposing Vaporeon.

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Dewdark (Umbreon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Payback
- Heal Bell

Umbreon took the place of Lady Bug’s Blissey, and, although not as bulky, it really fits this team better. Wish support lets Umbreon and its fellow Eeveelution Vaporeon act as a solid Wish-passing core, which is extremely helpful since Umbreon plays such unique roles for the squad. Payback is for Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokémon, which Umbreon is heavily specialized in countering, having a resistance to Ghost moves and an immunity to Psychic ones. It’s worth nothing that, while the latter feature doesn’t usually mean much in DPP OU due to the rarity of Psychic-type moves, it actually comes in handy when considering that both Nidoqueen and Hitmontop are weak to Psychic.
As far as the last slot goes, Heal Bell lets Umbreon cure itself and its teammates from status, which is incredibly useful in stall builds, and for this team in particular. It also helps Umbreon against Rotom-A’s or Gengar’s Will-O-Wisp and makes for an effective combo with Synchronize, which I often exploit to fight Thunder Wave users. But the main reason why Heal Bell is here is to wake up my Rest-mons, i.e. Rotom-F and most importantly Hitmontop (which doesn’t even have Sleep Talk), letting the latter spin repeatedly and/or come in on Blissey or Clefable without too many problems.
For this Rest Hitmontop+cleric combo I was inspired by Excal’s Hitmontop Stall team from 2018.
Finally, a Sassy nature and 0 Speed IVs ensure Payback will almost always have 100 BP, most notably giving Umbreon an edge against Dusknoir. In addition to this, using Heal Bell to support the team while being slower than things like Blissey, Clefable and Empoleon makes sure you’ll cure yourself too when they inflict you a status condition in the same turn.

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Dai-sojo (Hitmontop) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Foresight
- Close Combat
- Rest

Tyranitar and its permanent sand are by far the biggest problem for hail teams, and not only is Hitmontop one of the most consistent Tyranitar counters, but it’s also the most reliable spinner in the tier thanks to Foresight. Close Combat is the STAB move of choice, hitting everything reasonably hard and being Hitmontop’s best weapon against the green monster, Blissey and Clefable. Rest is to remove status, shrug off defensive Rotom-A’s attacks and survive multiple Blissey’s and Clefable’s Seismic Toss. Although this move is simply mandatory to at least put up a battle against the pink demon, it actually fits Hitmontop well, since its bulkiness allows it to sleep in front of Tyranitar without too many risks when necessary. That being said, the effectiveness and viability of Rest greatly rely on Umbreon’s Heal Bell support.
An Impish nature and almost full investment in Defense are needed to better counter Tyranitar (and the other pesky Pursuit user Weavile), while 32 Speed EVs let Hitmontop be faster than maximum Speed Adamant Rhyperior, 128 Speed Machamp, SubSeed Breloom and all those Pokémon trying to outpace the latter, namely 24-28 Speed Skarmory and Metagross as well as 96-100 Speed Tyranitar.
Hitmontop only has a few specific roles, but without it my team would easily lose to Tyranitar, Clefable, hazard-stacking builds and could possibly have a harder time against Blissey. However, it also makes for a secondary Trick absorber (it’s usually just a hit-and-run Pokémon against offensive teams in any case), and, when its jobs are completed, it can always be a good sleep fodder thanks to Intimidate.

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Zuijin (Rotom-Frost) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard

When creating my hail team, there was one thing I knew for sure: I wanted to exploit Rotom-F’s pseudo Bolt-Beam combination with 100% accuracy Blizzard. The perfect coverage of an Electric- and an Ice-type move is especially useful when considering that defensive Rotom-A is usually seen as a RestTalk user, which must hit as hard as possible with only two moves. As an added benefit, Sleep Talk eliminates the need to worry about Blizzard low PP. To cut it short, Thunderbolt-Blizzard RestTalk Rotom-F is, in my opinion, the main selling point of hail teams.
Although you should play it carefully while Tyranitar is still around, the sentient fridge is totally a fantastic Pokémon, checking a lot of major threats, such as Gyarados, Metagross, Scizor, Breloom, Dragonite, Flygon, Bronzong, Togekiss and non-special Jirachi (especially the ones packing Body Slam). Other than that, Rotom-F is obviously my Sleep absorber, a fairly durable spinblocker thanks to Rest and my main answer to SubSeed Breloom and lead Machamp (which is easily cornered with Hitmontop’s help), as well as my only switch-in on lead Gallade.
0 Speed EVs are necessary to be slower than maximum Speed Adamant Machamp, so that Payback won’t double its power.

THREAT LIST

Here you can find a list of Pokémon I consider problematic, divided into three threat levels (yellow is for tier 3, orange for tier 2 and red for tier 1) and ordered from the least to the most troublesome.

- Non-Specs Zapdos: Nidoqueen is generally my initial switch-in on Zapdos, since the legendary bird usually starts things off using Thunderbolt or U-turn, with the latter scenario having the perk of potentially activating Poison Point.
If I see Zapdos is choiced, then it isn’t a problem for my team. Otherwise, I immediately send Umbreon out and just wait for Synchronize to activate on a Thunderbolt/Discharge paralyisis. In this way, Rotom-F will be able to unleash some super effective Blizzard without worrying about Zapdos’s faster Roost removing its Flying-type, and even Vaporeon will be able to finish it off. The case of Umbreon getting hit by Toxic on the first switch is worth mentioning, and it surely represents a favorable circumstance.
When certain information on the electric bird’s moveset is available, more options pop up: if Zapdos lacks Heat Wave, then Abomasnow becomes a counter, if it doesn’t carry Roost, Rotom-F can rely less on Umbreon to deal with it.
Obviously, when facing Zapdos I prioritize setting up Stealth Rock, and, if it happens to be at low health, I can always revenge kill it with Abomasnow’s Ice Shard.
Because of my rather gimmicky way to deal with this Pokémon, I thought of giving Vaporeon Toxic instead of Hidden Power Electric, so that I could catch it on the switch or while using Roost, and then stall it out with Umbreon. Toxic would also pair pretty well with my stall-oriented strategy in general, but it would come at the cost of leaving my team ultimately weak to Gyarados.

- Paraflinch Jirachi: when my opponent brings Jirachi out, the first thing I do is to check its item. If hail (or Stealth Rock) reveals Jirachi’s Leftovers, then I switch Umbreon in, since my opponent is likely to use a paralyzing move and will be punished by Synchronize. Once paralyzed, the pesky wishing star is basically harmless, but the application of the plan gets tricky if Umbreon has already been revealed by the time Jirachi is first sent out. In this situation and without proper prediction, Jirachi could deal massive damage to my team.
Note that, if the Leftovers Jirachi is actually a Superachi, Umbreon is still the best Pokémon to switch in.
If Jirachi doesn’t hold Leftovers, then it shouldn’t be a problem at all.
For the sake of safety against Paraflinch Jirachi, I thought of teaching Rotom-F Will-O-Wisp instead of Blizzard. It would be a very spammable move, and would give me the upper hand in a lot of situation, but the loss of Blizzard would make me even worse against Breloom.

- Kingdra: its stellar typing, combined with the number of sets it can use, just make Kingdra a big threat. I have Toxic Spikes (which can be however absorbed by Qwilfish in rain teams, or cured with Rest), and pretty much all of my team (except for Nidoqueen, provided that it wasn’t tricked a Choice Scarf) can be somehow useful to take down one or another version of the king of the abyss, but it is usually not that simple, or I just end up losing important pieces while carrying out the task.

- Choice Specs Latias: Umbreon can take a Choice Specs Latias’s Draco Meteor and heal itself with Wish+Protect, but it must be at almost full health to do so, which is even more difficult to achieve if the opponent happens to have anything else that can only be countered by Umbreon. While I can still revenge kill it with Abomansow, the lack of either Blissey or a Steel-type can be a significant problem when facing such a powerhouse.

- Breloom: although I am in theory prepared for this one, it usually proves itself a major problem.
When I see Breloom, I immediately switch Rotom-F in to take Spore and use Sleep Talk. If the mushroom dinosaur lacks Substitute, then I stick to Rotom-F to try to hit it with Blizzard. If Breloom does have Substitute, the situation gets trickier.
Basically, if Rotom-F hits the mushroom dinosaur before it can set up a Substitute, it means I am faster and my opponent is probably a SubSeed set, so, if I haven’t knocked it out with Blizzard yet, I just Rotom-F in, since it can only be hurt by Leech Seed.
Otherwise, I am statistically facing SubPunch Breloom, so I go to Nidoqueen as soon as I break the Substitute, forcing the friendly dinosaur out with Flamethrower. Later in the game, if I predict a Seed Bomb when Breloom isn’t behind a Substitute, I can opt to first bring Hitmontop in to have Intimidate lower its Attack before actually going to Nidoqueen.
Rotom-F and Nidoqueen (always with Hitmontop’s support) are also secondary checks respectively to SubPunch and SubSeed Breloom.
While all these plans certainly sound good, there’s almost always something going wrong in practice. Also, I am basically helpless against the rare fast SubSeed Breloom.

- Clefable: even if this team was specifically built to have some solid chances against Clefable, it actually ended up being weak to it.
Hitmontop puts the pink demon in a dangerous position, and Abomasnow’s Wood Hammer hurts it a lot, but the former is too easily worn down by Seismic Toss, and the latter can’t really switch in because of its weakness to Stealth Rock and Clefable’s immunity to Leech Seed. While it’s true that Rest grants Hitmontop more longevity, its base HP stat is so low that it risks to be KOed by few Seismic Toss before even having the chance to recover, especially when Leftovers have been removed by Knock Off.
All in all, countering Clefable is generally just too tricky for a team which heavily relies on passive damage.

- Leech Seed Venusaur: I’m lucky this thing isn’t so frequent in the OU environment, because it’s a significant issue. Although this version of Venusaur is usually seen as a special attacker, not even Umbreon can take it on, since its damage output is just too poor to beat a decently bulky Leech Seed user.
Being Rotom-F my only Pokémon that can actually put up a sort of a challenge against the prehistoric frog, I usually have something else take Sleep Powder (I still have Umbreon to wake it up), then I go to Abomasnow to take either Leaf Storm or Leech Seed and finally bring Rotom-F in on the coverage move. This is a strongly unreliable plan though, since Rotom-F can’t tank Venusaur’s attacks so well, and it is always at risk of being Pursuited, not to mention the fact that I’m forced to use one of my Pokémon as a sleep fodder.
While Venusaur can still be revenge killed by Abomasnow’s Ice Shard, its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes makes it even more problematic.
I thought of giving Vaporeon Blizzard instead of Hidden Power Electric to relatively make up for my weakness against this Pokémon, making me simultaneously better against Zapdos, Breloom and Latias as well, but the loss of reliability in checking Gyarados would once again be a huge letdown.

- Wish+Calm Mind Jirachi: seriously, I can’t touch this one. Umbreon is immune to Psychic and can paralyze Jirachi when hit by a Serene Grace Thunderbolt, but I just hardly accomplish anything with that. Sure, Nidoqueen can outspeed a paralyzed Jirachi and hit it super effectively with Earth Power, but what can it do against a Pokémon with boosted Special Defense?

REPLAYS

Here you can see my team in action:
Replay 1- annihilating a full setup sweeper team
Replay 2- nice teamwork showcase
Replay 3- Black Sludge wins me a game
Replay 4- defeating Paraflinch Jirachi
Replay 5- defeating Choice Specs Kingdra
Replay 6- defeating Choice Specs Latias and Kingdra
Replay 7- epic stall war
Replay 8- defeating a 1558 elo player
 
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awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RMT Leader
Hey!

Love the art, I genuinely think Hail teams in gen 4 are underrated because a decent amount of Pokémon in OU are not resistant to ice so they will take damage, and Blizzard is a great move to spam due to the power and typing.

I think the EVs in Abomasnow could work, I think the reason Lady Bug had a special defensive spread is to manage to keep it alive.

I won't recommend any new Pokémon because I think this team in terms of synergy and typing works pretty well. I think to fix the SubCM Rachi issue and to not try to play pressure stall with Umbreon vs Zapdos I personally think adding Curse and removing Heal Bell could work in your favor.

1663987605795.png

Heal Bell > Curse
Heal Bell is vital to this team and I think Vaporeon should take initiate it to drop a move instead of Umbreon, Payback will for sure hit harder since Umbreon will be slower after each Curse setup and you can have an option for a late game sweeper. This exact set (With Curse) has been a MVP of mine in the past and has given me much success in past Smogon tours (DP UU). A base power of 150 is nothing to mess with when it comes to Payback (As long as you hit last).
1663987799188.png

Hidden Power Electric / Protect > Heal Bell
I think Vaporeon picking up Heal Bell makes more sense because I don't think both Wish Cleric need Protect, but if you value the toxic spike stall than I say keep it. I will say Hidden Power Electric can be nice for Gyarados I don't think it's super important because Rotom exists (+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Frost: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) As long as Rotom is in full health it can definitely take a waterfall and kill it with thunderbolt, just switch off after you predict a dragon dance.

Lastly you said you might have problems with Breloom, Scizor, and grass types in general, I understand the importance of Hitmontop for Tyranitar and Rapid Spin but I think Tentacruel wouldn't be a bad option (Just an idea) to handling those Pokemon. Gives you the option of a rapid spinner and someone who can set up spikes as well, and you can than take off toxic spikes on Nidoqueen and give it Thunderbolt / Blizzard.

Aside from that great team, and I hope you have continued success.
 
Hey!

Love the art, I genuinely think Hail teams in gen 4 are underrated because a decent amount of Pokémon in OU are not resistant to ice so they will take damage, and Blizzard is a great move to spam due to the power and typing.

I think the EVs in Abomasnow could work, I think the reason Lady Bug had a special defensive spread is to manage to keep it alive.

I won't recommend any new Pokémon because I think this team in terms of synergy and typing works pretty well. I think to fix the SubCM Rachi issue and to not try to play pressure stall with Umbreon vs Zapdos I personally think adding Curse and removing Heal Bell could work in your favor.

View attachment 454737
Heal Bell > Curse
Heal Bell is vital to this team and I think Vaporeon should take initiate it to drop a move instead of Umbreon, Payback will for sure hit harder since Umbreon will be slower after each Curse setup and you can have an option for a late game sweeper. This exact set (With Curse) has been a MVP of mine in the past and has given me much success in past Smogon tours (DP UU). A base power of 150 is nothing to mess with when it comes to Payback (As long as you hit last).
View attachment 454738
Hidden Power Electric / Protect > Heal Bell
I think Vaporeon picking up Heal Bell makes more sense because I don't think both Wish Cleric need Protect, but if you value the toxic spike stall than I say keep it. I will say Hidden Power Electric can be nice for Gyarados I don't think it's super important because Rotom exists (+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Frost: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) As long as Rotom is in full health it can definitely take a waterfall and kill it with thunderbolt, just switch off after you predict a dragon dance.

Lastly you said you might have problems with Breloom, Scizor, and grass types in general, I understand the importance of Hitmontop for Tyranitar and Rapid Spin but I think Tentacruel wouldn't be a bad option (Just an idea) to handling those Pokemon. Gives you the option of a rapid spinner and someone who can set up spikes as well, and you can than take off toxic spikes on Nidoqueen and give it Thunderbolt / Blizzard.

Aside from that great team, and I hope you have continued success.
Hi man and thank you so much for your comment. I clearly see these are totally valuable ideas, so I want to give you quite an in-depth analysis of them.
First we have Umbreon. Adding Curse to make it better against defensive CM Jirachi and Zapdos is certainly more than reasonable, and I thought of doing so in some occasions. Losing the ability of immediately healing from the numerous statuses that usually inflict Umbreon is a bit of a letdown though, since Synchronize would lose effectiveness and I wouldn’t be able to check defensive Rotom-A anymore.
Then we have Vaporeon. While giving it Heal Bell would be totally natural if Umbreon loses it, the fact is that both Protect and Hidden Power Electric are too important. Protect is fundamental to check Bronzong, Metagross and Heatran due to them having Explosion, and it is invaluable to keep Vaporeon healthy and let it come in repeatedly against Infernape and Heatran. Hidden Power Electric as you know lets vaporeon check Gyarados, and while I have another counter for it in Rotom-F, it must be at good health to take on the sea serpent. Practically, if my opponent switches Gyarados out when they see Rotom-F and bring Pursuit Tyranitar in, the battle is pretty much over. Sure, I could always predict it and bring Hitmontop in on the switch, but I ultimately think it would become too much of a challenge to overcome a common threat like Gyarados.
Finally, we have Tentacruel in place of Hitmontop. This is unfortunately not viable because I would automatically lose to Clefable. Rest on Hitmontop is irreplaceable in order to effectively try to take the pink demon down, so, by extension, I can’t really think of losing my only Fighting-type.
Hope I’ve been exhaustive. Thank you again for your comment, and have a nice day :)
 
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awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RMT Leader
Hi man and thank you so much for your comment. I clearly see these are totally valuable ideas, so i want to give you quite an in-depth analysis of them.
First we have umbreon. Adding curse to make it better against defensive cm jirachi and zapdos is certainly more than reasonable, and i thought of doing so in some occasions. Losing the ability of immediately healing from the numerous statuses that usually inflict umbreon is a bit of a letdown tho, since synchronize would lose effectiveness and i wouldn’t be able to check defensive rotom anymore.
Then we have vaporeon. While giving it heal bell would be totally natural if umbreon loses it, the fact is that both protect and hp electric are too important. Protect is fundamental to check bronzong, metagross and heatran due to them having explosion, and it is invaluable to keep vaporeon healthy and let it come in repeatedly against infernape and heatran. Hp electric as you know lets vaporeon check gyara, and while i have in rotom another counter for it, it must be at good health to take on the sea serpent. Practically, if my opponent switches gyara off when they see rotom and brings pursuit ttar out, the battle is pretty much over. Sure, i could always predict it and bring hitmontop out on the switch, but i ultimately think it would become too much of a challenge to overcome a common threat like gyara.
Finally, we have tentacruel in place of hitmontop. This is unfortunately not viable because i would straight up automatically lose to clefable. Rest on hitmontop is irreplaceable in order to effectively try to take the pink demon down, so, by extension, i can’t really think of losing my only fighting-type.
Hope i’ve been exhaustive. Thank you again for your comment, and have a nice day :)
Thank you for replying Denojap, like I said I wasn't too pressed on the tentacruel suggestion just because I do like Hitmontop it was just to counter things like Breloom and Scizor, but Tyranitar might be the most overused OU pokemon in the metagame so I understand.


If you're worried about just Umbreon's status vs the whole team then we might come to agreement on maybe implementing a Rest + Sleep Talk set for Umbreon. Instead of you needing 3 moves (Heal Bell, Protect, Wish) for recovery and status cure you could just have 2 moves (Rest + Sleep Talk) and then you can add Curse on the additional slot. This would be a plausible idea I think just because if you needed wish cure for the team, Vaporeon is already providing that. The set would look like this:

1664120973539.png

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Curse
- Payback

Only a suggestion, but regardless thank you for the response and I wish you luck with the team.
 
Thank you for replying Denojap, like I said I wasn't too pressed on the tentacruel suggestion just because I do like Hitmontop it was just to counter things like Breloom and Scizor, but Tyranitar might be the most overused OU pokemon in the metagame so I understand.


If you're worried about just Umbreon's status vs the whole team then we might come to agreement on maybe implementing a Rest + Sleep Talk set for Umbreon. Instead of you needing 3 moves (Heal Bell, Protect, Wish) for recovery and status cure you could just have 2 moves (Rest + Sleep Talk) and then you can add Curse on the additional slot. This would be a plausible idea I think just because if you needed wish cure for the team, Vaporeon is already providing that. The set would look like this:

View attachment 455033
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Curse
- Payback

Only a suggestion, but regardless thank you for the response and I wish you luck with the team.
Hi bro and thank you once again for your carefully reasoned comment.
RestTalk curse Umbreon is an interesting Pokémon indeed, and it would be superior to my current Umbreon set in the sense it would have the possibility to sweep in the late game and counter defensive CM Jirachi, but the inability to heal itself without relying on Rest means Umbreon would just become less effective in the early-mid stages of the game.
Other than that, Heal Bell is too important for Hitmontop and because my team is really vulnerable to status in general.
While I know this build isn’t the strongest in the world because it has at least four borderline Pokémon in it, I also think that it should be actually overturned in order to be improved, because everything is kinda untouchable at the time being.
Nonetheless, thank you again for your help, I wish you the best :)
 
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EDIT: I know that low ladder is just crowded with players trying this team out or taking inspiration from it. While I did expect someone to like my RMT because hail is so cool (pun intended) and overlooked, I honestly didn’t anticipate such success.
I’m glad so many people liked my idea, but please, feel free to contact me if you want to know something about the building process or if you need some advice.
I’ve never looked for recognition, but if no one has ever reached out to me for this team yet it has been such a common sight in low ladder for months, I think it gets a bit disrespectful.
I’ve personally witnessed some players making some changes in my build that can’t really work, and talking with me would just prevent you from wasting time and energy.
Also, if you are interested in hail I’m only happy to have a talk with you, because, you know, confrontation is key to success.
Anyway, thank you all a lot for the attention you gave to my team, I bet Lady Bug couldn’t possibly imagine that his work would have such an intense revamp 13 years later :)
 
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Hi everyone, I’m Denojap and I’m Italian, so please keep that in mind if the wording of this text happens to feel unnatural at times.
I’m a casual player since 2018, and some months ago I came up with the idea of building a hail team, because, you know, hail is crashing down during the battle against Red in HGSS, so I consider it the “ultimate” weather condition.
I initially came across Lady Bug’s old RMTs from 2009 and 2010, and I was glad to see that leading with Abomasnow was a viable idea, since that was exactly what I wanted to do. Also, I liked the fact that both teams had some unusual Pokémon in them.
Lady Bug’s chosen approach was stall, hail favorite strategy as stated in the dedicated Smogon article, and I saw absolutely nothing wrong with that, since most of the times you’ll start the battle switching Abomasnow out and you’ll need some bulky Pokémon to take the hit.
The problem is that the flaws Lady Bug’s teams naturally sported add to the ones related to the changing of time in the DPP OU metagame, letting those builds completely unable to survive in a modern competitive environment. The team from 2009, featuring Abomasnow, Nidoqueen, Gyarados, Blissey, Hitmontop and Rotom-F, can’t literally touch Gengar, has some prominent issues with Dragonite, defensive Rotom-A and Clefable (which wasn’t even a thing back in the days), and relies too much on Rotom-F to counter common threats like Gyarados, Skarmory, Metagross and Bronzong. The squad from 2010, consisting of Abomasnow, Nidoqueen, Skarmory, Blissey, Starmie and Spiritomb, is considerably weak to DDTar, Breloom, Nasty Plot Infernape, Paraflinch or mixed Jirachi and once again Dragonite, besides automatically losing to Clefable and depending too much on Starmie to beat Gyarados and Skarmory.
I know those issues particularly well, since I personally tested the teams for quite a while, only racking up underwhelming results.
The presence of Clefable in the OU tier is definitely the most notable change in the last years, so I found myself trying to edit the 2009 team, which at least had a Fighting-type Pokémon like Hitmontop in it. I eventually came up with a squad I can’t really improve any further, boasting amazing synergy, solid defensive coverage and even some nice combos.
The novelty of my build brought to a not-so-short learning process, but in the end I hit the threshold for the Silver Guts Achievement more than once, peaking at 1393 elo and 64,9% GXE.
I know I’m not the only one in love with hail, since a lot of people used to enjoy Lady Bug’s team and praise his originality, so I’m glad to share my work with all of the DPP OU community.
Obviously, thank you in advance for your comments.

HAIL STALL BY DENOJAP

View attachment 454645

Abomasnow @ Leftovers
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Wood Hammer
- Ice Shard

Setting the hail as soon as possible is crucial to start crippling opposing Pokémon from the get-go. This is by far Abomasnow’s best set, because it makes the green-and-white Yeti surprisingly durable with the help of Leftovers, Leech Seed (a very spammable move, which also has an important role in supporting the team) and Protect, while letting it hit hard with Wood Hammer and effectively revenge kill Dragonite, Flygon, Gliscor, Latias, Togekiss, Roserade, Shaymin and weakened opponents with Ice Shard (Protect, and possibly Leech Seed, can be useful to stall out some more HP before actually using priority to close the deal).
Lady Bug had a specially defensive spread, but I don’t find it so useful, because Abomasnow would lose the ability of revenge killing and would leave the team weak to the aforementioned Pokémon (Gliscor excluded). Plus, it usually switches in only on bulky Water-types, Gliscor or Hippowdon, so it really doesn’t need any extra Special Defense investment, whereas the power bonus to Wood Hammer is really helpful, especially against Blissey, Clefable and the sandy hippopotamus.
Matchups-wise, Abomasnow isn’t certainly the best lead in the tier, as it only wins against Swampert, Hippowdon, Empoleon and Starmie, but it still has Protect for prediction against the likes of Azelf and Jirachi. Also, I tried leading with something else, but the sentient Christmas tree is just too functional to give up on opening a game with it.
20 Speed EVs are here to outspeed Clefable, standard 16 Speed Swampert and 0-8 Speed Tyranitar.

View attachment 454646

Nidoqueen @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Point
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic Spikes
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower

Nidoqueen has a lot of different roles, the first of which is to set entry hazards. Stealth Rock is important to let Abomasnow revenge kill Dragonite, while Toxic Spikes just make stall-oriented strategies super effective. The last two slots feature Earth Power, a reliable STAB, and Flamethrower, the only Fire-type move in my party and a solid weapon against Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor and Magnet Rise Magnezone.
Lady Bug used a Relaxed nature with Earthquake in place of Earth Power, but the extra Speed is invaluable to be faster than Adamant Rhyperior, 128 Speed Machamp, SubSeed Breloom (Nidoqueen would otherwise lose to it), Skarmory, some Metagross and 4 Speed Heatran (the 16 Speed EVs serve this specific purpose), while hitting Tyranitar harder isn’t needed, because I already have a really solid plan for it in Hitmontop, with Vaporeon as an emergency check and Toxic Spikes as back up. Furthermore, using a Bold nature instead of a Relaxed one has some minor additional benefits, such as taking less damage from Dynamic Punch confusion and suffering less from being tricked either Choice Scarf or Choice Specs.
Speaking of which, Nidoqueen is clearly my main Trick absorber: it doesn’t really mind being choiced, and trading Black Sludge to an opponent can cause severe damage, especially in conjunction with hail, three Protect-mons (Abomasnow, Vaporeon and Umbreon) and Abomasnow’s Ice Shard. The toothless dinosaur also makes for an excellent pivot into U-turn thanks to Poison Point, and really pulls its weight as my only Heracross counter as well as my best answer to Lucario, SubPunch Breloom and non-lead Machamp. Nidoqueen is great against physical Infernape too, and can always come in on a predicted Close Combat or U-turn (should Poison Point activate), so it’s basically my first switch-in on the burning ape if the opponent sends it out in the early game.
Last but not least, Nidoqueen serves the purpose of absorbing Toxic Spikes, which would otherwise be quite problematic for this team, even with Hitmontop spinning them away.

View attachment 454647

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 28 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SpA
- Wish
- Protect
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Vaporeon is here instead of Lady Bug’s RestTalk Gyarados, which I found way too passive, only being able to check really few threats. Wish support is great and combos well with the other Protect-mons, Surf is the obligatory STAB move and Hidden Power Electric is for Gyarados, which Vaporeon counters pretty well; as a bonus, it lets the watery dog touch Water-types and admiringly check Empoleon.
Vaporeon is one of the best answers to Infernape in the metagame, my only true Heatran counter (in case of emergency, I can tank a hit with Hitmontop if it’s at full health and retaliate back hard with Close Combat, or I could also stall it out with Umbreon), my main Gyarados and Metagross check (I try to keep Rotom-F concealed until Tyranitar is down, while still maintaining insurance against Metagross’s Explosion with Protect) and my go-to switch-in on Bronzong as well as lead Aerodactyl and Azelf (except for physical choice ones). Other than that, the Water-type Eevelution has a crucial role alongside Abomasnow in easing the rain offense matchup, as it is the bane of every rain team.
The EV spread emphasizes on Vaporeon’s mixed wall capabilities, and keeping Special Defense one point higher than Defense makes sure Download won’t boost Porygon-Z’s Special Attack. 12 Speed EVs are spent to outspeed 8 Speed Scizor and opposing Vaporeon.

View attachment 454649

Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Payback
- Heal Bell

Umbreon took the place of Lady Bug’s Blissey, and, although not as bulky, it really fits this team better. Wish support lets Umbreon and its fellow Eeveelution Vaporeon act as a solid Wish-passing core, which is extremely helpful since Umbreon plays such unique roles for the squad. Payback is for Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokémon, which Umbreon is heavily specialized in countering, having a resistance to Ghost moves and an immunity to Psychic ones. It’s worth nothing that, while the latter feature doesn’t usually mean much in DPP OU due to the rarity of Psychic-type moves, it actually comes in handy when considering that both Nidoqueen and Hitmontop are weak to Psychic.
As far as the last slot goes, Heal Bell lets Umbreon cure itself and its teammates from status, which is incredibly useful in stall builds, and for this team in particular. It also helps Umbreon against Rotom-A’s or Gengar’s Will-O-Wisp and makes for an effective combo with Synchronize, which I often exploit to fight Thunder Wave users. But the main reason why Heal Bell is here is to wake up my Rest-mons, i.e. Rotom-F and most importantly Hitmontop (which doesn’t even have Sleep Talk), letting the latter spin repeatedly and/or come in on Blissey or Clefable without too many problems.
For this Rest Hitmontop+cleric combo I was inspired by Excal’s Hitmontop Stall team from 2018.
Finally, a Sassy nature and 0 Speed IVs ensure Payback will almost always have 100 BP, most notably giving Umbreon an edge against Dusknoir. In addition to this, using Heal Bell to support the team while being slower than things like Blissey, Clefable and Empoleon makes sure you’ll cure yourself too when they inflict you a status condition in the same turn.

View attachment 454650

Hitmontop @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Foresight
- Close Combat
- Rest

Tyranitar and its permanent sand are by far the biggest problem for Hail teams, and not only is Hitmontop one of the most consistent Tyranitar counters, but it’s also the most reliable spinner in the tier thanks to Foresight. Close Combat is the STAB move of choice, hitting everything reasonably hard and being Hitmontop’s best weapon against the green monster, Blissey and Clefable. Rest is to remove status, shrug off defensive Rotom-A’s attacks and survive multiple Blissey’s and Clefable’s Seismic Toss. Although this move is simply mandatory to at least put up a battle against the pink demon, it actually fits Hitmontop well, since its bulkiness allows it to sleep in front of Tyranitar without too many risks when necessary. That being said, the effectiveness and viability of Rest greatly rely on Umbreon’s Heal Bell support.
An Impish nature and almost full investment in Defense are needed to better counter Tyranitar (and the other pesky Pursuit user Weavile), while 32 Speed EVs let Hitmontop be faster than maximum Speed Adamant Rhyperior, 128 Speed Machamp, SubSeed Breloom and all those Pokémon trying to outpace the latter, namely 24-28 Speed Skarmory and Metagross as well as 96-100 Speed Tyranitar.
Hitmontop only has a few specific roles, but without it my team would easily lose to Tyranitar, Clefable, hazard-stacking builds and could possibly have a harder time against Blissey. However, it also makes for a secondary Trick absorber (it’s usually just a hit-and-run Pokémon against offensive teams in any case), and, when its jobs are completed, it can always be a good sleep fodder thanks to Intimidate.

View attachment 454651

Rotom-Frost @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Thunderbolt
- Blizzard

When creating my hail team, there was one thing I knew for sure: I wanted to exploit Rotom-F’s pseudo Bolt-Beam combination with 100% accuracy Blizzard. The perfect coverage of an Electric- and an Ice-type move is especially useful when considering that defensive Rotom-A is usually seen as a RestTalk user, which must hit as hard as possible with only two moves. As an added benefit, Sleep Talk eliminates the need to worry about Blizzard low PP. To cut it short, Thunderbolt-Blizzard RestTalk Rotom-F is, in my opinion, the main selling point of hail teams.
Although you should play it carefully while Tyranitar is still around, the sentient fridge is totally a fantastic Pokémon, checking a lot of major threats, such as Gyarados, Metagross, Scizor, Breloom, Dragonite, Flygon, Bronzong, Togekiss and non-special Jirachi (especially the ones packing Body Slam). Other than that, Rotom-F is obviously my Sleep absorber, a fairly durable spinblocker thanks to Rest and my main answer to SubSeed Breloom and lead Machamp (which is easily cornered with Hitmontop’s help), as well as my only switch-in on lead Gallade.
0 Speed EVs are necessary to be slower than maximum Speed Adamant Machamp, so that Payback won’t double its power.

THREAT LIST

Here you can find a list of Pokémon I consider problematic, divided into three threat levels: yellow (tier 3), orange (tier 2) and red (tier 1).

- Clefable: although this team was specifically built to have some solid chances against it, Clefable is still some sort of a pain. Hitmontop puts the pink demon in a dangerous position, and Abomasnow’s Wood Hammer hurts it a lot, but the former is too easily worn down by Seismic Toss, and the latter can’t really switch in because of its weakness to Stealth Rock and Clefable’s immunity to Leech Seed. While it’s true that Rest grants Hitmontop more longevity, its base HP stat is so low that it risks to be KOed by few Seismic Toss before even having the chance to recover, especially when Leftovers have been removed by Knock Off.

- Non-Specs Zapdos: Nidoqueen is generally my initial switch-in on Zapdos, since the legendary bird usually starts things off using Thunderbolt or U-turn, with the latter scenario having the perk of potentially activating Poison Point.
If I see Zapdos is choiced, then it isn’t a problem for my team. Otherwise, I immediately send Umbreon out and just wait for Synchronize to activate on a Thunderbolt/Discharge paralyisis. In this way, Rotom-F will be able to unleash some super effective Blizzard without worrying about Zapdos’s faster Roost removing its Flying-type, and even Vaporeon will be able to finish it off. The case of Umbreon getting hit by Toxic on the first switch is worth mentioning, and it surely represents a favorable circumstance.
When certain information on the electric bird’s moveset is available, more options pop up: if Zapdos lacks Heat Wave, then Abomasnow becomes a counter, if it doesn’t carry Roost, Rotom-F can rely less on Umbreon to deal with it.
Obviously, when facing Zapdos I prioritize setting up Stealth Rock, and, if it happens to be at low health, I can always revenge kill it with Abomasnow’s Ice Shard.
Because of my rather gimmicky way to deal with this Pokémon, I thought of giving Vaporeon Toxic instead of Hidden Power Electric, so that I could catch it on the switch or while using Roost, and then stall it out with Umbreon. Toxic would also pair pretty well with my stall-oriented strategy in general, but it would come at the cost of leaving my team ultimately weak to Gyarados.

- Paraflinch Jirachi: when my opponent brings Jirachi out, the first thing I do is to check its item. If hail (or Stealth Rock) reveals Jirachi’s Leftovers, then I switch Umbreon in, since my opponent is likely to use a paralyzing move and will be punished by Synchronize. Once paralyzed, the pesky wishing star is basically harmless, but the application of the plan gets tricky if Umbreon has already been revealed by the time Jirachi is first sent out. In this situation and without proper prediction, Jirachi could deal massive damage to my team.
Note that, if the Leftovers Jirachi is actually a Superachi, Umbreon is still the best Pokémon to switch in.
If Jirachi doesn’t hold Leftovers, then it shouldn’t be a problem at all.
For the sake of safety against Paraflinch Jirachi, I thought of teaching Rotom-F Will-O-Wisp instead of Blizzard. It would be a very spammable move, and would give me the upper hand in a lot of situation, but the loss of Blizzard would make me even worse against Breloom.

- Kingdra: its stellar typing, combined with the number of sets it can use, just make Kingdra a big threat. I have Toxic Spikes (which can be however absorbed by Qwilfish in rain teams, or cured with Rest), and pretty much all of my team (except for Nidoqueen, provided that it wasn’t tricked a Choice Scarf) can be somehow useful to take down one or another version of the king of the abyss, but it is usually not that simple, or I just end up losing important pieces while carrying out the .

- Breloom: although I am in theory prepared for this one, it usually proves itself a problem.
When I see Breloom, I immediately switch Rotom-F in to take Spore and use Sleep Talk. If the mushroom dinosaur lacks Substitute, then I stick to Rotom-F to try to hit it with Blizzard. If Breloom does have Substitute, the situation gets trickier.
Basically, if Rotom-F hits the mushroom dinosaur before it can set up a Substitute, it means I am faster and my opponent is probably a SubSeed set, so, if I haven’t knocked it out with Blizzard yet, I just Rotom-F in, since it can only be hurt by Leech Seed.
Otherwise, I am statistically facing SubPunch Breloom, so I go to Nidoqueen as soon as I break the Substitute, forcing the friendly dinosaur out with Flamethrower. Later in the game, if I predict a Seed Bomb when Breloom isn’t behind a Substitute, I can opt to first bring Hitmontop in to have Intimidate lower its Attack before actually going to Nidoqueen.
Rotom-F and Nidoqueen (always with Hitmontop’s support) are also secondary checks respectively to SubPunch and SubSeed Breloom.
While all these plans certainly sound good, there’s almost always something going wrong in practice. Also, I am basically helpless against the rare fast SubSeed Breloom.

- Choice Specs Latias: Umbreon can take a Choice Specs Latias’s Draco Meteor and heal itself with Wish+Protect, but it must be at almost full health to do so, which is even more difficult to achieve if the opponent happens to have anything else that can only be countered by Umbreon. While I can still revenge kill it with Abomansow, the lack of either Blissey or a Steel-type can be a significant problem when facing such a powerhouse.

- Leech Seed Venusaur: I’m lucky this thing isn’t so frequent in the OU environment, because it’s a significant issue. Although this version of Venusaur is usually seen as a special attacker, not even Umbreon can take it on, since its damage output is just too poor to beat a decently bulky Leech Seed user.
Being Rotom-F my only Pokémon that can actually put up a sort of a challenge against the prehistoric frog, I usually have something else take Sleep Powder (I still have Umbreon to wake it up), then I go to Abomasnow to take either Leaf Storm or Leech Seed and finally bring Rotom-F in on the coverage move. This is a strongly unreliable plan though, since Rotom-F can’t tank Venusaur’s attacks so well, and it is always at risk of being Pursuited, not to mention the fact that I’m forced to use one of my Pokémon as a sleep fodder.
While Venusaur can still be revenge killed by Abomasnow’s Ice Shard, its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes makes it even more problematic.
I thought of giving Vaporeon Blizzard instead of Hidden Power Electric to relatively make up for my weakness against this Pokémon, making me simultaneously better against Zapdos, Breloom and Latias as well, but the loss of reliability in checking Gyarados would once again be a huge letdown.

- Wish+Calm Mind Jirachi: seriously, I can’t touch this one. Umbreon is immune to Psychic and can paralyze Jirachi when hit by a Serene Grace Thunderbolt, but I just hardly accomplish anything with that. Sure, Nidoqueen can outspeed a paralyzed Jirachi and hit it super effectively with Earth Power, but what can it do against a Pokémon with boosted Special Defense?

REPLAYS

Here you can see my team in action:
Replay 1- annihilating a full setup sweeper team
Replay 2- nice teamwork showcase
Replay 3- Black Sludge wins me a game
Replay 4- defeating Paraflinch Jirachi
Replay 5- defeating Choice Specs Kingdra
Replay 6- defeating Choice Specs Latias and Kingdra
Replay 7- epic stall war
Replay 8- defeating a 1558 elo player
Def change vaporeon to a bulky starmie for speed, and u could go sub leech seed loom over hitmontop. Also really weak to metagross and honestly any physical attacker lol
 
Def change vaporeon to a bulky starmie for speed, and u could go sub leech seed loom over hitmontop. Also really weak to metagross and honestly any physical attacker lol
Man, I honestly have mixed feelings about your comment. The Starmie and Breloom suggestion is nice, and I’ll get back to it later, but your criticism about Metagross and physical attackers is just the furthest statement possible from reality. The two archetypes my team is most effective against are actually physical attack and choice abusers, and Metagross is one of the Pokémon I like to see the most. When I built my team I specifically made sure every physical threat would be largely covered, because no one wants to be destroyed by a random setup sweeper. I genuinely feel upset that I even have to demonstrate it, but here we go:
  • Metagross: Vaporeon and Rotom-F. I love to see it especially because with Vaporeon’s Protect and Rotom-F’s typing the metal threat is likely to explode for nothing. You can see how I handle (it’s actually more than just handling) Metagross in Replay 1 and Replay 5;
  • Dragonite: Rotom-F and Abomasnow’s Ice Shard;
  • Gyarados: Vaporeon and Rotom-F. This is also one of my favorite to battle;
  • Infernape: Nidoqueen, Vaporeon and Toxic Spikes. Literally few stall teams are so well covered against the burning ape;
  • Lucario: Nidoqueen and, when it lacks Cruch or is choiced, Rotom-F. Hitmontop can check it in a pinch;
  • Machamp: Rotom-F and Nidoqueen. Hitmontop helps Rotom-F beat lead variants. The same applies as for Infernape: few stall teams are so well prepared for Machamp;
  • Scizor: Vaporeon, Rotom-F and, against Sword Dance sets, Nidoqueen. The latter and Rotom-F are also very solid pivots into U-turn;
  • Tyranitar: Hitmontop devours it, Vaporeon and Toxic Spikes are backup plans. Tyranitar is the Pokémon I like to see the most.
If all of this evidence wasn’t enough, there is always Replay 1, where I effortlessly get rid of a full physical attacker team.

Moving on to the Pokémon you suggested, they definitely make sense, which shows you are surely a good player and that you were probably just in a hurry when writing the second part of your comment.
I see you not only made sure to add Pokémon with similar types as the ones you’d take out, but you also wanted to keep their overall roles: Starmie would be the spinner in place of Hitmontop and Breloom would have Leech Seed to compensate for the loss of Vaporeon’s Wish.
If you go deeper, however, you can notice that those two Pokémon would significantly worsen the defensive coverage of my team, making me susceptible to five types, whereas my current team only is weak to two types, with them being Psychic and Flying, two true rarity in OU moves-wise.
In addition to this, my team consists of one tank, one special, one mixed and three physical walls (which adds up to the reasons why my build is everything but weak to physical attackers), so replacing a mixed wall like Vaporeon with a physical wall like Starmie isn’t really a good idea, especially because my Water-type is supposed to be my only true Heatran counter. Also, losing Protect means that I can’t have the usual advantage in Explosion mind games against the likes of Azelf, Bronzong and, speaking of the devil, Metagross, all Pokémon that Vaporeon gladly switches in on.
Breloom is broken, but one of the main reasons Vaporeon’s Wish is here is because Umbreon must be at full health to even have a chance to work, and Leech Seed just doesn’t give it enough HP back. Furthermore, Hitmontop is a sort of secondary Heatran check, and changing it with Breloom would just make me weaker against it, which would add up to Starmie’s negative influence and make me ultimately weak to the legendary Pokémon.

Anyway, like I said your suggestions are a serious attempt, so I appreciate your effort a lot. You should know by now that I’m a bit disappointed about your criticism, but you ended up giving me an opportunity to showcase some of the qualities of my team, so it’s fine.
 
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Hi, I love 4 gen hail teams and your team looks great, a very original hail stall (not using Walrein, that's extremely original). Everything is very well explained and other users gave you a lot of feedback, I will only focus on Jirachi (but my suggestions will help you against other counters like Clefable and Venusaur), because you say is a huge counter for you. The only way I think you can handle Jirachi in a better way without changing the structure of the team perhaps would be replacing Nidoqueen by Gliscor.

Gliscor plays a similar role than Nidoqueen: sets up rocks, resists Fighting (walls Lucario) and provides ground stab coverage, but also has some other benefits: innmune to both spikes, breaks stall, gives you another ground inmunity, and most important, hits Jirachi harder no matter how many Calm Mind it used and resists Psychic much better than Nido. But of course Gliscor has some cons for your team: no toxic spikes, no absorbing t spikes, and no fire coverage (Fire Fang Gliscor seems a worse option than Flamethrower Nido, but in the worst case Gliscor still has some fire coverage).

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Roost


This set could fit really well on your team (keeping in mind those things that you would lose by removing Nido). Some calcs showing how his bulk could help your team:

+3 252 SpA Jirachi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 264-312 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 145-172 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 139-165 (39.2 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


This Gliscor outspeeds everything you mention that your Nidoqueen outspeeded and is a good answer against steel: checks and Taunts Scizor, makes Forretress and Skarmory useless, counters Jirachi really well and is even a great answer versus Magnet Rise Magnezone, since Gliscor is always faster so Magnezone could never set up a Magnet Rise in front of him (but it could do it against Nidoqueen), so you won't have that urgency for having a Fire type move. Moreover, Gliscor works really well against non Ice Beam Clefable, Leech Seed Venusaur and Breloom (Taunt prevents it from using Spore or Substitute, which gives you safer switches into the mushroom), all of them are on your threatlist.

I also used Infernape on my hail semi stall team and it gave me great results, removing every Jirachi, but it would be impossible to fit Nape on your team. I leave a link to my hail team if you are interested on it:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-a-very-original-hail-semi-stall.3680040/
 
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Hi, I love 4 gen hail teams and your team looks great, a very original hail stall (not using Walrein, that's extremely original). Everything is very well explained and other users gave you a lot of feedback, I will only focus on Jirachi (but my suggestions will help you against other counters like Clefable and Venusaur), because you say is a huge counter for you. The only way I think you can handle Jirachi in a better way without changing the structure of the team perhaps would be replacing Nidoqueen by Gliscor.

Gliscor plays a similar role than Nidoqueen: sets up rocks, resists Fighting (walls Lucario) and provides ground stab coverage, but also has some other benefits: innmune to both spikes, breaks stall, gives you another ground inmunity, and most important, hits Jirachi harder no matter how many Calm Mind it used and resists Psychic much better than Nido. But of course Gliscor has some cons for your team: no toxic spikes, no absorbing t spikes, and no fire coverage (Fire Fang Gliscor seems a worse option than Flamethrower Nido, but in the worst case Gliscor still has some fire coverage).

Gliscor @ Leftovers
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Taunt
- Roost


This set could fit really well on your team (keeping in mind those things that you would lose by removing Nido). Some calcs showing how his bulk could help your team:

+3 252 SpA Jirachi Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 264-312 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Infernape Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 145-172 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 139-165 (39.2 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


This Gliscor outspeeds everything you mention that your Nidoqueen outspeeded and is a good answer against steel: checks and Taunts Scizor, makes Forretress and Skarmory useless, counters Jirachi really well and is even a great answer versus Magnet Rise Magnezone, since Gliscor is always faster so Magnezone could never set up a Magnet Rise in front of him (but it could do it against Nidoqueen), so you won't have that urgency for having a Fire type move. Moreover, Gliscor works really well against non Ice Beam Clefable, Leech Seed Venusaur and Breloom (Taunt prevents it from using Spore or Substitute, which gives you safer switches into the mushroom), all of them are on your threatlist.

I also used Infernape on my hail semi stall team and it gave me great results, removing every Jirachi, but it would be impossible to fit Nape on your team. I leave a link to my hail team if you are interested on it:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-a-very-original-hail-semi-stall.3680040/
Hi Gazpacho, nice to meet you. I’ve seen you posted quite a bit of RMTs, you know, I sincerely appreciate your will to share your knowledge and your ideas, this is the best way to convince new players to dive into the deep sea of competitive Pokémon and to give experienced players some food for thought. Nonetheless, it seems you like using original Pokémon for your teams, which is something we have in common and also another thing that I have to give you credit for, because creativity allows the meta to evolve.

Speaking of your suggestions, the point is that I don’t really care about losing to Wish+Calm Mind Jirachi: every team has its weaknesses, and this is frankly a minor one. The problems of my build are basically named Clefable and Breloom, and I can actually see my team reach much higher elo if it weren’t for them. My hatred for Breloom got my try to fit Gliscor in my team, as I find an Ice Fang/Wing Attack+Roost set to be a good answer to the mushroom dinosaur, but I didn’t succeed. On the other hand, dropping either of these two moves would make Gliscor just an inferior Nidoqueen for this team, since it wouldn’t be a better counter to Breloom and I would lose my Toxic Spikes setter and absorber as well as my Trick absorber.

As far as your team goes, I surely find it an interesting take on hail stall. I think a Slack Off Infernape can be a terrific way to deal with Clefable, and it could be an intriguing experiment to try to fit it in a build. I’m more than available to team up or just have some confrontation to give hail a name with a new even stronger team :)
 
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