Project Don't Use That, Use This! (Closed)

[Tuthur]

Votes are now open.
Set 1:
- Wishiwashi
- Beheeyem

Set 3:
-Floatzel
-Simipour

Since there is only one submission for set 2, here is the winner for set 2:

Set 2: Defensive Pivot Silvally-Water

Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 100 SpA / 136 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Surf / Ice Beam
- Defog
- U-turn

Silvally-Water, while hitting less hard than Octillery and having a less coverage options, has better defensive stats, Speed and utility movepool. This allows Silvally-Water to act as a better tank, with this spread Silvally-Water outspeeds Shiftry and OHKO it with U-turn after SR, and do heavy damages with Thunderbolt to every Water-types, even Mareanie and Swanna which are neutral to Octillery's Energy Ball, while maximazing Silvally-Water overall bulk and ability to take on Fire-types such as Combusken and Rapidash.

 

[7shoes]

Wishiwashi
Simipour

 

[DirtyPenguin]

Wishiwashi
Simipour

 

[Tuthur]

Wishiwashi
Simipour

Here are the winners:

Wishiwashi @ Life Orb
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Fire]


Really simple, Wishiwashi is just a better Octillery. It's lower speed makes it a better TR sweeper, it has WAY WAY better offensive stats, it is a pivot with U-Turn, and is also more bulky. It's coverage may not be superb compared to Octillery, but like I said, the change in offensive stats and bulk always makes Wishiwashi a better option.

Simipour @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Knock Off

Simipour's movepool has nothing to be envious of Octillery's one. Also Simipour while having slighly lower offense, has a far higher speed, allowing it to namely outspeed Silvally, Swanna and Leafeon. With this set Simipour can at least 2HKO with some prediction every Pokémon not nammed Silvally-Water, Pyukumuku or Mareanie (the latter doesn't come safely once Knocked Off), which makes this set a far more effective breaker than Octillery.

 

[Tuthur]

Slate 16: Let's talk about Byron's favorite Pokémon: Bastiodon.

Set 1: Physically defensive

Bastiodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Roar / Protect
- Metal Burst / Rock Blast

Set 2: Specially defensive

Bastiodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Roar / Protect
- Metal Burst / Rock Blast

Set 3: Curse

Bastiodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rock Blast
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Bastiodon has one of the highest bulk available in ZU (60/168/138) and a lot of resistances as well as a toxic immunity thanks to its Steel-type. Bastiodon is in fact one of the few available full evolved Steel-types in ZU with Probopass and Mawile. Bastiodon biggest issue is its passivity due to awful offense (52/47) which prevents it from dealing any significant damage with its STAB move. Therefore Bastiodon relies heavily on Toxic and Metal Burst to beat what it's supposed to check, which makes it very easy to switch into. But here isn't Bastiodon sole issue, Bastiodon's typing is also far from good due to two quag weaknesses to Fighting and Ground as well as a weakness to Water, 3 very common offensive type in ZU which limits Bastiodon ability to check Pokémon. Finally Bastiodon doesn't have access to any sort of recovery outside of Leftovers and Rest which is extremely bad for a Pokémon that relies on Metal Burst to deal significant damages and needs to stay several turns on the field to stall its target with Toxic.

 

[7shoes]

Set 1
Sandslash @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic / Knock off
- Earthquake

Sandslash is a good mon in ZU thanks to its access to Stealth Rock and rapid spin,
-and few other moves like Knock off and Toxic
its ground type is pretty interesting and immune it to electric moves and reduce Stealth Rock damages.
Moreover it can easily 1v1 Golem which is the most common lead in the ZU metagame.


(and one of the ugliest mon)

 

[Oathkeeper]

Slot 1: Physically Defensive

Golem @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Golem is just better when it comes to physical defense. Bastiodon may be able to take a few more than Golem, but Golem doesn't have the 4x weakness to Fighting, just a 2x and unlike Bastiodon, Golem can reliably fight back since Metal Burst is not a guaranteed thing.

Slot 2: Specially Defensive

Probopass @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy / Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 HP / 172 SpD / 84 Spe
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon / Earth Power
- Volt Switch
- Toxic / Taunt

While Bastiodon and Probopass share the same typing and thus, weaknesses, Probopass has some better perks. Of them includes the ability to pivot with Volt Switch, reliably hit the opponent with Flash Cannon or Earth Power, and even Taunt would be opposing rockers. Probopass can even trap other Steels like Mawile and Metang.

Slot 3: Curse

Muk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Poison Jab
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Muk is just an overall better user of Curse + RestTalk. It only has 2 weaknesses in Psychic and Ground and once it gets going with Curse, it is practically eating up both types of moves. It has a resistance to Fighting unlike Bastiodon and once again, reliably hits with Poison Jab. Not much else to say!​

 

[Tuthur]

Set 1: Defensive Mawile

Mawile @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss / Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Pain Split / Super Fang

Physically defensive Mawile shares Bastiodon Steel-type and thanks to Intimidate also packs a good physical bulk. However Mawile has a better typing with allows it to better check Normal-types due to not being quad weak to their most common coverage move in Earthquake, but also allows it to handle Shiftry, one of the best Pokémon in the tier. Also Mawile's support movepool is better than Bastiodon's one with semi-reliable recovery in Pain Split, Knock Off and less passive offensive move in Seismic Toss and Super Fang.

Set 2: Bronzor

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Psywave
- Stealth Rock
- Rest

Bronzor shares similar resistances with Bastiodon but has less weakness which allows it to better handle Bouffalant, Swanna, Servine just to name a few. It may have weaknesses to Dark, Fire and Ghost that Bastiodon doesn't have. However there is no common Dark special attacker in the tier, Fire types all carry a Ground or Fighting move, so Bastiodon isn't a threat to them, for Ghost-types Misdreavus already beats Bastiodon, Drifblim often carries Hidden Power [Fighting], so the only real Pokémon Bronzor misses over Bastiodon is Ghostvally. That makes Bronzor beat far more Pokémon than Bastiodon, but also thanks to Psywave Bronzor is far less passive than Bastiodon.

Set 3: Curse Lickilicky

Lickilicky @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Knock Off / Return
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Lickilicky has a slightly better Special bulk than Bastiodon and slighly worse Physical bulk. Lickilicky packs less weakness than Bastiodon, allowing it to find more opportunity to setup with Curse. Also thanks to its ability Lickilicky can't be Taunted which further eases it to set up. Also this Lickilicky can't catch your opponenet off guard since it's far rarer than the standard Wish Pass set.

 

[Tuthur]

Set 1: Physically Defensive Cradily
Set 2: Specially Defensive Muk
Set 3: Nothing (No viable Curse users outside of Muk, Munchlax, and Sligoo, and the former is the only relevant mon out of the three; and somebody sniped me for that)

Please write this up.

 

[War Incarnate]

Please write this up.

I actually decided not to submit this slate after some more consideration.

 

[Tuthur]

Votes are open.
Set 1:
-Sandslash
-Golem
-Mawile

Set 2:
-Probopass
-Bronzor

Set 3:
-Muk
-Lickilicky

My votes:
Golem
Bronzor
Muk

 

[Rav3]

Golem
Bronz
Muk

 

[Tuthur]

So here are the winners:
Set 1:

Slot 1: Physically Defensive

Golem @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 Def
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

Golem is just better when it comes to physical defense. Bastiodon may be able to take a few more than Golem, but Golem doesn't have the 4x weakness to Fighting, just a 2x and unlike Bastiodon, Golem can reliably fight back since Metal Burst is not a guaranteed thing.

Set 2:

Set 2: Bronzor

Bronzor @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Toxic
- Psywave
- Stealth Rock
- Rest

Bronzor shares similar resistances with Bastiodon but has less weakness which allows it to better handle Bouffalant, Swanna, Servine just to name a few. It may have weaknesses to Dark, Fire and Ghost that Bastiodon doesn't have. However there is no common Dark special attacker in the tier, Fire types all carry a Ground or Fighting move, so Bastiodon isn't a threat to them, for Ghost-types Misdreavus already beats Bastiodon, Drifblim often carries Hidden Power [Fighting], so the only real Pokémon Bronzor misses over Bastiodon is Ghostvally. That makes Bronzor beat far more Pokémon than Bastiodon, but also thanks to Psywave Bronzor is far less passive than Bastiodon.

Set 3:

Slot 3: Curse

Muk @ Leftovers
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Poison Jab
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Muk is just an overall better user of Curse + RestTalk. It only has 2 weaknesses in Psychic and Ground and once it gets going with Curse, it is practically eating up both types of moves. It has a resistance to Fighting unlike Bastiodon and once again, reliably hits with Poison Jab. Not much else to say!

 

[Tuthur]

Slate 17: Fire Monotype S-rank, Torkoal

Set 1: Support

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: White Smoke / Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Lava Plume
- Explosion / Toxic / Yawn

This set uses Torkoal's main appeal: its access to both Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock as well as its high physical bulk. However Torkoal loses to almost every hazard setters (Lava Plume is a 4HKO on standard Bronzor) and is weak to every kind of hazards making it a mediocre Spinner. As a hazard setter Torkoal is a bit better due to its ability to wall physical Silvally form, but it still loses to Swanna, Altaria and special Silvally form which are very common. Also with such a weakness to hazard and no reliable recovery Torkoal is unable to effectively perform a wall role.

Set 2: Shell Smash

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: White Smoke
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Rock]

Torkoal has access to one of the best setup move in the game in Shell Smash, while Torkoal has the bulk to setup, correct Special Attack and good offensive coverage. However Torkoal is super slow and at +2 in Speed it gets outspeed by 90 positive nature Pokémon such as Mr Mime and the most common in the metagame such as Swanna, Electivire and Silvally. This makes Torkoal unable to sweep unless it succeeds to set up 2 Shell Smash which is very unlikely.

Set 3: Double Dance

Torkoal @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flame Wheel
- Curse
- Amnesia
- Rest

This set uses Torkoal great all arround bulk to boost it further with Curse and Amnesia. Thanks to White Smoke Torkoal can't get hit by a critical hit which makes this strategy less risky than it looks. However Torkoal needs to much Curse boosts to become dangerous with Flame Wheel a very weak STAB move and is susceptible to be abusted by most wallbreakers such as Swanna, Electivire and Marowak. Also this set is very susceptible to Taunt as well as Haze and Unaware that aren't uncommon in ZU. Combine this with Torkoal's lack of set up opportunity due to its weakness to every hazard, and you have a defensive sweeper that can never setup.

Note that is Don't Use That, Use This last slate. If you want to host it after me, just ask any moderator if you're allowed to do so. Also votes will open for this slate on Friday's morning (GMT +2) and close on Sunday's evening (GMT +2).

 

[275p]

Set 1 Defensive

Sandslash @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Sandslash is just a better spinner than Torkoal in general, due to a better defensive typing, a resitance to stealth rock, while also having acces to knock off to do something against spin blockers like Gourgeist XL and Silvally Ghost. Its defense stat, while not as high as Torkoal, is high enough to tank enough physical attacks and theatens physical attackers like Combusken and Electivire with a stab Earthquake.

Set 2 Shell Smash

Crustle @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Crustle is a better shell smash sweeper due to its higher attack stat and ability to threaten pokemon like Swanna with its rock type moves. It also has a similar defense stat like Torkoal and has a slightly higher speed tier, thus outspeeding after a shell smash boost pokemon like Floatzel.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

Set 2:

Simisear @ Firium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Ice / Taunt
- Grass Knot / Focus Blast

Special attacking Fire-type sweeper? I think I got the Pokemon for you. Much better coverage and speed, and much stronger to boot. Not nearly as bulky as Torkoal but does the sweeper job much better due to its Speed.

Set 1:

Komala @ Leftovers
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Wish
- Protect

Komala functions better as a bulky Rapid Spin user despite lacking hazard setting of its own. Its ability is excellent for a defensive Pokemon, has better overall bulk, and still has some utility in Wish. Does worse overall against a lot of Torkoal's primary prey but at the same time Knock Off cripples a lot of those Pokemon and Komala has enough bulk to handle a lot of Special Attackers in the tier. This set + a Golem or something can do a hell of a lot more than Torkoal can in one slot.

Set 3:

Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 164 SpD / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Facade / Return
- Slack Off
- Taunt / Substitute

So that Double Dance set is a bulky physical attacker/sweeper of sorts? Well, the closest thing to that in this tier is fellow Hoenn Pokemon Vigoroth. Vigoroth has better offensive prescence, isn't weak to Rocks, has access to Taunt screwing over stuff like Pyukumuku and Haze users that crap all over Double Dance Torkoal, has reliable recovery, and all in all is just a lot easier to use and a lot more effective than the steam turtle.

 

[Tuthur]

Oops I completely forgot to open votes, yesterday. Anyway now they are open:

Set 1:
-Sandslash
-Komala

Set 2:
-Simisear
-Crustle

Melons-N-Soda wins with their Vigoroth due to being the only submission for set 3.

Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 164 SpD / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Facade / Return
- Slack Off
- Taunt / Substitute

So that Double Dance set is a bulky physical attacker/sweeper of sorts? Well, the closest thing to that in this tier is fellow Hoenn Pokemon Vigoroth. Vigoroth has better offensive prescence, isn't weak to Rocks, has access to Taunt screwing over stuff like Pyukumuku and Haze users that crap all over Double Dance Torkoal, has reliable recovery, and all in all is just a lot easier to use and a lot more effective than the steam turtle.

My votes are:
Sandslash
Simisear

 

[DirtyPenguin]

and

 

[War Incarnate]

Sandslash and Crustle, cuz why the heck not?

 

[Tuthur]

I forgot to close this lol.
Here is the winner:

Set 1 Defensive

Sandslash @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Sandslash is just a better spinner than Torkoal in general, due to a better defensive typing, a resitance to stealth rock, while also having acces to knock off to do something against spin blockers like Gourgeist XL and Silvally Ghost. Its defense stat, while not as high as Torkoal, is high enough to tank enough physical attacks and theatens physical attackers like Combusken and Electivire with a stab Earthquake.

Set 2 Shell Smash

Crustle @ Rockium Z
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Crustle is a better shell smash sweeper due to its higher attack stat and ability to threaten pokemon like Swanna with its rock type moves. It also has a similar defense stat like Torkoal and has a slightly higher speed tier, thus outspeeding after a shell smash boost pokemon like Floatzel.

 

[7shoes]

Is this still alive ?

 

[Celever]

Is this still alive ?

Slate 17: Fire Monotype S-rank, Torkoal

Note that is Don't Use That, Use This last slate. If you want to host it after me, just ask any moderator if you're allowed to do so. Also votes will open for this slate on Friday's morning (GMT +2) and close on Sunday's evening (GMT +2).

Doesn't look like it. In fairness community interest in this was exponentially waning.

 

[7shoes]

Oh didn't see my bad