OU Discussing deoxys defense for ou

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I will prefix this by saying I am not by any means a respectable bw ou player and not going to pretend I have authority on the subject but do play the tier a decent amount and am a big nerd who looks at the teambuilder for too long instead of copy pasting a team and moving on like a sane person.


Now to get into the meat of this post, why not let deoxys defense free in bw ou?

No really, I get that it is deoxys defense(deo-d) and it's banned in ou in the previous gen and the following gens but in all honesty to me it seems not that much more valueble over the other premier spikes using defensive pokémon in the tier and frankly seems like it would fit in as just another option at the moment while serving as a mid ground inbetween other spikes users while still having a niché of it's own to add to the meta without taking away from others.

Overall skarmory(skarm) and ferrothorn(ferro) both have ups on deo-d with their sand immunity as well as spikes immunity and water resist respectively.

Fortress also still has it's own uses with volt switch and rapid spin over deo-d despite it becoming less and less seen over the years even if bringing it up.

Generally what deo-d brings to the table as a spikes user is it's use of taunt and knock off which are both seen already with skarm and ferro but unlike the two deo-d lacks the long term sustain via sand and spikes immunity skarm has and the resistance to water as well as electric to prevent deadly rain abusers like ferro does.

deo-d does still have a good defensive typing for the meta in mono psychic type but isn't really outstanding as it boils down to a reistance to psychic and fighting without a major weakness to pursuit trapping due to it's bulk and taking extra chip from U-turn.

Generally the psychic resist lets it check stuff like reuniclus and alakazam without also having a weakness to focus blast.

Most the fighting types around have other stabs that will hit deo-d fine and force it to recover.

The pursuit weakness while not major like in the case of other pursuit weak pokémon that downright get deleted by pursuit is still fairly notable on deo-d as it will have trouble switching in after getting a bit taken off it from pursuit and while it could run superpower for the premier pursuit user ttar I don't imagine that helps it much past that and ends up making it miss out on it's own benifits as using it would cut into it's long term pressence from moves like taunt, knock off and nightshade.


Overall I think that deo-d would be good in the bw ou metagame but held back by it's flaws from lack of immunity to passive damage common in the metagame and lack of resistances to get good switch-in's in the metagame.

I may be missing something or other however and would like to know if that is the case and I missjudged how deo-d would likely affect and interact with the current bw ou metagame years after it's banning.

I could see it being fine re-added in a similar case to latias in dpp ou (minus the requirement to ban a pokémon as a result like was done with dugtrio during that) or it being the straw that breaks the back of the jenga tower that makes up the bw ou metagame or adding some stability to the metagame with it's more generalized kit as a spike setter/defensive pokémon.

Discussion is apreciated.
 

Finchinator

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I feel that Deoxys-D would make the hazard problem go from noteworthy to at the forefront of our metagame. Removing Spikes is a nag and it limits the viability of a lot of Grounded options as is, so this would be a lot of addition by subtraction for me given how bulky and accessible Deoxys-D can be.

In addition, Deoxys-D has recovery and a surplus of utility options that would make it the most consistent hazard setter in the metagame. I don’t really feel this would be a positive change for the tier personally.
 

Jirachee

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I voted in the Deoxys-D suspect 11 (!!) years ago now. I voted to ban it and I still think that was the right decision.

You bring up Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and while both of these can get hazards up reliably, they don't do it as quickly as Deoxys-D. The main difference is that Deoxys-D doesn't really have an exploitable weakness; it can afford to set up hazards as early as turn 1 regardless of what the opponent sends in.

Custap / Salac Skarm is the closest thing to it in terms of speed of setting up, but doesn't have Deoxys-D's incredible versatility. The fact is that Deoxys-D doesn't rely on its item at all to get the job done in 95% of scenarios so you can just pick and choose what counter you'll fuck over. The possibilities are endless: Mental Herb, Colbur Berry, etc.. Back then, people even ran Electric Gem Thunder to KO Xatu.

You mention Pursuit as a problem for it, which makes me feel like you're missing the point of the Pokémon: it's simply trying to set hazards up and once that's done, Deoxys-D's health is irrelevant. Most players simply sacrificed it once 2 layers were up.

Given how hard it's always been to counter entry hazards in BW I can't ever see Deoxys-D being fair and balanced.
 
This is such a dumb proposal.It has taunt,recover,toxic,twave,spikes,sr, 180 defences and base 90 speed, ridiculous for ou, which already has enough issues as is
 
This is such a dumb proposal.It has taunt,recover,toxic,twave,spikes,sr, 180 defences and base 90 speed, ridiculous for ou, which already has enough issues as is
Now you are making me think about how f'd it would be if deo-d had 180 defenses or better hp, I do see the reasoning with the minor numbers diff aside as the more notable number of it's 90 base speed on a defensive mon like it is problematic
 
I voted in the Deoxys-D suspect 11 (!!) years ago now. I voted to ban it and I still think that was the right decision.

You bring up Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and while both of these can get hazards up reliably, they don't do it as quickly as Deoxys-D. The main difference is that Deoxys-D doesn't really have an exploitable weakness; it can afford to set up hazards as early as turn 1 regardless of what the opponent sends in.

Custap / Salac Skarm is the closest thing to it in terms of speed of setting up, but doesn't have Deoxys-D's incredible versatility. The fact is that Deoxys-D doesn't rely on its item at all to get the job done in 95% of scenarios so you can just pick and choose what counter you'll fuck over. The possibilities are endless: Mental Herb, Colbur Berry, etc.. Back then, people even ran Electric Gem Thunder to KO Xatu.

You mention Pursuit as a problem for it, which makes me feel like you're missing the point of the Pokémon: it's simply trying to set hazards up and once that's done, Deoxys-D's health is irrelevant. Most players simply sacrificed it once 2 layers were up.

Given how hard it's always been to counter entry hazards in BW I can't ever see Deoxys-D being fair and balanced.
Yeah honestly despite it's defensive qaulities I can see how that would be leveraged to enable more offense and see your point.

Thanks for the explanation :)
 
I feel that Deoxys-D would make the hazard problem go from noteworthy to at the forefront of our metagame. Removing Spikes is a nag and it limits the viability of a lot of Grounded options as is, so this would be a lot of addition by subtraction for me given how bulky and accessible Deoxys-D can be.

In addition, Deoxys-D has recovery and a surplus of utility options that would make it the most consistent hazard setter in the metagame. I don’t really feel this would be a positive change for the tier personally.
It makes sense that deo-d having the combination of some many options would be toxic even despite typing being lesser to the other spikes setters.

Wouldn't need to care about the longer term when it can easily take a hit and ensure hazards while limiting it's opponents from doing the same.
 

peng

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play nice, tdog

as another person who played back when deo-d was around, have to agree with jirachee here. Deo-d is just too diverse in its options to beat common attempted counter-leads for it to be a healthy presence. Mons like HO Skarmory are already pretty good and have 1 set. Deo-D is faster, bulkier, and has a movepool rivaled only by Mew, giving it a silly number of sets.

Sure, it mostly just uses Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt, and Magic Coat, but it has such a deep movepool that it can run weird sets that 1v1 every hazard control counterplay if it wants to. You can beat Tentacruel (Psycho Boost), Starmie (Thunder), Excadrill (LO Superpower), Taunt Aero/Azelf/Terrak (Mental Herb + TWave + Taunt, or Magic Coat), or Xatu (Skill Swap). If you want to go at it offensively and remove it before it can get multiple hazards, your options are basically Band or Scarf Tyranitar (beaten by LO Superpower, or Colbur) and CB Scizor (Hidden Power Fire).

Yes, everything above saw usage 10 years ago. As did even weirder stuff like Red Card, which i kind of forget the purpose of.

There's also a bunch of stuff that we never properly explored before like TrickScarf, Trick Flame Orb, Counter, and Mirror Coat, as well as the fact its a handy dual Screens setter and can mess with you hard if you run into it thinking its dual hazard.

If you are really interested in the history of why Deo-D is banned and some of the discussion of the common sets, this is the old suspect thread from 2013:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-bw-ou-suspect-testing-round-10-hazard.3478726/page-3

its broken af
 

Gamer1234556

"Because... Scald is a shit Ferro answer!!!"
Apologies for the rather condescending (and now deleted) post I made earlier. For compensation, I will make a post that is at least a bit more sensitive and that actually has more effort put into it (and hopefully this one doesn’t get taken down).

Honestly, I feel like a general question that needs to be asked is what purpose does unbanning Deoxys-D serve for the tier? Does it benefit the metagame in any healthy way? Or you just unbanning stuff for the sake of it? Because to me it seems like this situation really falls in the latter category.

Generally what deo-d brings to the table as a spikes user is it's use of taunt and knock off which are both seen already with skarm and ferro but unlike the two deo-d lacks the long term sustain via sand and spikes immunity skarm has and the resistance to water as well as electric to prevent deadly rain abusers like ferro does.
As many others pointed out, Deoxys-D has Recover, nullifying any issues of passive damage. And while it can’t switch into Specs Keldeo’s Hydro Pumps safely, it takes 20% from Secret Sword, and the moment it gets in, Rain teams are barely going to make any progress against it without turning games into never ending status wars.

The pursuit weakness while not major like in the case of other pursuit weak pokémon that downright get deleted by pursuit is still fairly notable on deo-d as it will have trouble switching in after getting a bit taken off it from pursuit and while it could run superpower for the premier pursuit user ttar I don't imagine that helps it much past that and ends up making it miss out on it's own benifits as using it would cut into it's long term pressence from moves like taunt, knock off and nightshade.
Tyranitar actually has a deceptively tricky time trying to Pursuit-trap all the Psychics consistently. It is forced into awkward Pursuit-Crunch mind games with Reuniclus, and the fact that it loses to Latios and Alakazam if it isn’t at full health doesn’t help matters much. So imagine adding another Psychic that Tyranitar has to trap while trying to trap the others? And keep in mind that Deoxys-D is way faster than Tyranitar, and can even break through it with Counter.

Also, without attack investment, Landorus-T's U-turns doesn't even 3HKO to Deoxys-D (given it has some defense investment). As for Scizor, it DOES do a lot better damage with U-turn, but Scarf sets are a lot rarer and from my knowledge, are restricted to Rain Balance. Volcarona does heavy damage with Bug Buzz without Quiver Dance boosts, but gets ruined by Mirror Coat. There are some of the better answers to Deoxys-D in the tier, and the fact that they are either niche, or can't even check it properly goes to show how problematic Deoxys-D will be for the tier.

Most the fighting types around have other stabs that will hit deo-d fine and force it to recover.
Pairing Deoxys-D with something like Excadrill pretty much invalidates Choice Band Terrakion. If that wasn't enough, Choice Band Breloom can't even KO it with Bullet Seed, meaning that Deoxys-D can just stall it out with Recover. I already argued about Keldeo, so I won't bring that up.

Generally the psychic resist lets it check stuff like reuniclus and alakazam without also having a weakness to focus blast.
While this IS a fair point, the fact that Deoxys-D amplfied so many other problems of the tier leaves me to believe that it does more harm than good for the tier.

Oh and just too add some more points, Jellicent is a defensive pokemon with a rather respectable speed tier of 60, meaning that it can actually take on Tyranitar with Wisp and some smart play. Now imagine a defense pokemon that is significantly faster than Jellicent, and one that Tyranitar will pretty much pull it's teeth out to take out, only to be overwhelmed by Deoxys-D's other partners.

So many people also brought up how good Deoxys-D's movepool really is, so I am not going to bring that up.

Overall, I feel like Deoxys-D will just turn BW OU into a glorified stall-fest. Scald itself is already pretty controversial of a move as is, but having to rely on Scald just to beat Deoxys-D is beyond reasonable. It doesn't even have that bad of a standing in BW Ubers, so what does unbanning it really do?
 
I feel that Deoxys-D would make the hazard problem go from noteworthy to at the forefront of our metagame. Removing Spikes is a nag and it limits the viability of a lot of Grounded options as is, so this would be a lot of addition by subtraction for me given how bulky and accessible Deoxys-D can be.

In addition, Deoxys-D has recovery and a surplus of utility options that would make it the most consistent hazard setter in the metagame. I don’t really feel this would be a positive change for the tier personally.
This was my immediate thought. The problem is bad enough with Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Tyranitar, Jellicent, etc. Deo-D was insufferable even when Xatu and Espeon were more common and Dugtrio and ST were around to cheese pressure hazard stacking cores. The sorta tripolar metagame we have now with rain / sand balance / drag mag doesn't really help with the hazard problem either. We end up with a bunch of teams that just have to ignore hazards because there's too much opportunity cost to go for a spin or sometimes to run a spinner at all. If anything from a hazard perspective I'd rather see Ferrothorn banned than Deo-D unbanned. But I know that's unlikely, and would open up a whole different disaster of a mess.

On the defensive side it's obviously not overbearing. It's a horrendous wall but too proficient as a support mon imo.
 
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