Youre not wrong that sweepers are generally falling off for balance squads. But this type of setup is a fine mon for HO and seems to be the most obvious and natural fit. Is the aim to make it viable or make it splashable? (genuine question here Lasen )
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Defunct CAP Buff 2: Pyroak
- Thread starter quziel
- Start date
- Status
Is stone edge actually necessary?
Read does it change any match up drastically?
Blitz is only 20 BP weaker and while it chips itself with it, terrain and high HP mitigate this to a degree. Additionally edge has a potential to miss and probably only ever gets clicked on switches, as all notable flying types already outspeed Roak and force it out once they get in safely. If edge has the potential for a OHKO on Torn or even zap, I think adding it is cool, otherwise I think it just bloats the movepool unnecessarily.
solid and simple buff. Probably my favorite atm.
This is an interesting variation of the above buff.
I feel like it’s a bit too convoluted, but glare is a nuts novenas contrary a nuts ability.
This would definitely improve roak a lot.
I also like that keeping leaf storm over overhead forces you to think hard about your move selection because leafstorm fire blast ep is incredible for setting up but losing out on utility as opposed to running just fire ground is definitely a consideration.
i would like to see some more calcs, I think roak definitely has a place as a fun rocker that can fuck up a lot of the common defoggers. I think the question remains if youd run this over balloon Tran or even SpD Tran.
I am not sure if the niche is open enough for roak to actually settle in, if roak would be consistent if the set of foggers changes and if it brings enough utility otherwise, to be easy to slot onto teams.
Pseudo legendary roak!
I have to agree with Pip, that there’s nothing wrong with making roak a pick for only a handful teams, so long as it has a reasonable place to be run on these teams.
Roak on Hyper offense sounds ridiculous, but I think it’s workable.
For what it’s worth roak might actually still work as a fun tank with these stats, as you’d reasonably could run Blitz eq recovery Aroma therapy/toxic or rocks, although for that purpose I would suggest adding slack off to the buff, for more consistent utility.
I think competitive is maybe the better option over defiant, as lava plume is just incredibly spammable, especially with a SpA buff.
I do think this one would need more reliable recovery as well bc Giga drain and Synth don’t ever offer enough, especially since this would probably end up with more defensive sets, than what you are proposing.
cracked!
Im not sure I like it.
Status Spam like that is incredibly annoying and the buff kinda still doesn’t answer where to put roak on a team imo.
Is this crackhead Rotom W/H? Do we have to ban Pult after this?
I really can’t see where this would go.
Final Submission
+ Sheer Force
- Battle Armor
+ 18 Speed
- 20 Attack
+ Slack Off
Sheer Force lets Pyroak take advantage of all of its Coverage and Stab moves with effects like Earth Power, Flamethrower, and Energy Ball to do more damage. +18 speed lets it outspeed Corviknight and Heatran too, and Slack Off is just more PP recovery.
+ Sheer Force
- Battle Armor
+ 18 Speed
- 20 Attack
+ Slack Off
Sheer Force lets Pyroak take advantage of all of its Coverage and Stab moves with effects like Earth Power, Flamethrower, and Energy Ball to do more damage. +18 speed lets it outspeed Corviknight and Heatran too, and Slack Off is just more PP recovery.
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Final Submission
+Competitive
-White Smoke
+20 Special Attack
+10 Speed
+Slack Off
Decided to go with my first buff package bc I realized that Natural Cure forcing Pyroak to switch out a lot might actually result in it taking more chip damage, not less. I also do think that reliable recovery is necessary on Pyroak, so I added Slack Off to the package.
+Competitive
-White Smoke
+20 Special Attack
+10 Speed
+Slack Off
Decided to go with my first buff package bc I realized that Natural Cure forcing Pyroak to switch out a lot might actually result in it taking more chip damage, not less. I also do think that reliable recovery is necessary on Pyroak, so I added Slack Off to the package.
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Hello here with a Mod Post.
I am posting to clarify that any buff packages must follow the ability banlist laid out here. Additionally they are not allowed any legendary signature moves (read, no Glacial Lance, Jungle Healing, nor V-Create).
Thank you and enjoy your day. I am making Gumbo atm, so may your dinner be as nice as mine.
I am posting to clarify that any buff packages must follow the ability banlist laid out here. Additionally they are not allowed any legendary signature moves (read, no Glacial Lance, Jungle Healing, nor V-Create).
Thank you and enjoy your day. I am making Gumbo atm, so may your dinner be as nice as mine.
Final Submission
+Magic Guard
+Flame Body
+Snap Trap
+Spiky Shield
+10 Defence
+20 Attack
-Battle Armor
-Rock Head
-20 Special Attack
-35 Special Defence
-----
For reference, 120/90/115/75/55/60
-Buffs seek to avoid changing CAP3's apparently intended generalised role for Pyroak as a tank and wallbreaker, only now with considerable flexibility. Clefable's versatility in these roles inspired this set of buffs.
-Magic Guard Pyroak would be a capable wallbreaker when paired with Life Orb, and turns Pyroak's normal Stealth Rock weakness into an immunity. This would significantly improve Pyroak's defensive matchups. With Life Orb, Pyroak effectively becomes a 132 Attack behemoth. Life Orb Wood Hammer does 79.2% minimum to maxed Argh, making Pyroak a physical set-up sweeper capable of breaking past it.
-Stats prevent Pyroak from becoming a mixed sweeper. They've been lowered to compensate for Pyroak's immense buff in Magic Guard
- Flame Body turns Pyroak into a Weavile, Urshifu, and Melmetal counter that punishes their multi-hit moves. This is just a better defensive ability compared to Battle Armor of White Smoke, which are just trash now.
-Snap Trap and Spiky Shield are complementary passive damage to Leech Seed and allow Pyroak to fulfill an annoyer role. Combined with a burn from Flame Body, Pyroak can rack up damage quickly.
-Special Defence turns Pyroak into fodder for Venomicon and Tornadus.
-No 16 PP recovery move will further distinguish from Clefable as a principally offense-oriented tank.
------------------
+Field Control Concept
+Drought
+Grassy Surge
+Defiant
+Defog
+30 Attack
-10 Hit Points
-10 Defence
-10 Special Defence
----
110/100/95/95/80/60
New concept: Field Control
User is capable of establishing several different playstyles dedicated to controlling aspects of the field. This may mean terrain, weather, and control over hazards (or a combination of any). User should look to not only provide support, but also have qualities that inherently take advantage of that support.
-Pyroak is now a setter for multiple team archetypes which themselves have complimentary synergy. As noted by someone else, two other Grass CAPs have Drought, thus forming a sort of support core with redundant weaknesses. Similarly, Drought Pyroak's Solar Beam could benefit from Tapu Bulu's Grassy Surge.
-Drought provides a functional Water resistance and Growth set-up. Pyroak has several moves that benefit from the presence of Sun.
-Defiant Pyroak acts as an offensive pivot and check to Astrolotl and Webs while also punishing Defog.
-Grassy Surge Pyroak is a priority sweeper that may open the door up to Grass Spam. Has a functional Earthquake resistance.
-Floral Healing acts as a counterpart to Synthesis that heals 2/3 HP in Grassy Terrain. It is also a 16 PP healing move. This means both setter sets would have access to 2/3 healing.
+Magic Guard
+Flame Body
+Snap Trap
+Spiky Shield
+10 Defence
+20 Attack
-Battle Armor
-Rock Head
-20 Special Attack
-35 Special Defence
-----
For reference, 120/90/115/75/55/60
-Buffs seek to avoid changing CAP3's apparently intended generalised role for Pyroak as a tank and wallbreaker, only now with considerable flexibility. Clefable's versatility in these roles inspired this set of buffs.
-Magic Guard Pyroak would be a capable wallbreaker when paired with Life Orb, and turns Pyroak's normal Stealth Rock weakness into an immunity. This would significantly improve Pyroak's defensive matchups. With Life Orb, Pyroak effectively becomes a 132 Attack behemoth. Life Orb Wood Hammer does 79.2% minimum to maxed Argh, making Pyroak a physical set-up sweeper capable of breaking past it.
-Stats prevent Pyroak from becoming a mixed sweeper. They've been lowered to compensate for Pyroak's immense buff in Magic Guard
- Flame Body turns Pyroak into a Weavile, Urshifu, and Melmetal counter that punishes their multi-hit moves. This is just a better defensive ability compared to Battle Armor of White Smoke, which are just trash now.
-Snap Trap and Spiky Shield are complementary passive damage to Leech Seed and allow Pyroak to fulfill an annoyer role. Combined with a burn from Flame Body, Pyroak can rack up damage quickly.
-Special Defence turns Pyroak into fodder for Venomicon and Tornadus.
-No 16 PP recovery move will further distinguish from Clefable as a principally offense-oriented tank.
------------------
+Field Control Concept
+Drought
+Grassy Surge
+Defiant
+Defog
+30 Attack
-10 Hit Points
-10 Defence
-10 Special Defence
----
110/100/95/95/80/60
New concept: Field Control
User is capable of establishing several different playstyles dedicated to controlling aspects of the field. This may mean terrain, weather, and control over hazards (or a combination of any). User should look to not only provide support, but also have qualities that inherently take advantage of that support.
-Pyroak is now a setter for multiple team archetypes which themselves have complimentary synergy. As noted by someone else, two other Grass CAPs have Drought, thus forming a sort of support core with redundant weaknesses. Similarly, Drought Pyroak's Solar Beam could benefit from Tapu Bulu's Grassy Surge.
-Drought provides a functional Water resistance and Growth set-up. Pyroak has several moves that benefit from the presence of Sun.
-Defiant Pyroak acts as an offensive pivot and check to Astrolotl and Webs while also punishing Defog.
-Grassy Surge Pyroak is a priority sweeper that may open the door up to Grass Spam. Has a functional Earthquake resistance.
-
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Sadly, you cannot target yourself with Floral Healing, so the only mon getting access to 2/3 healing in this Pyroak case is Pyroak's Doubles partner...or Pyroak's opponent.
Thanks for the heads up, Floral Healing was supposed to be a replacement for Jungle Healing. It's too bad we still have that stupid arbitrary "legendary-exclusive" rule that has no actual basis in GF's game design, looks like a lot of really good buff packages are going to get disqualified for it.
Hello! After a long deliberation with the mod team and after an extremely hectic week, I am here to present: preliminary slate!
I will not bore you with any idle chit chat, here's the things that I wish to slate:
Keep in mind this thread will remain for 48h so that discussion can be help. If the community wishes to make any changes to any of the Buff Packages slated, the original submitter may follow through and implement the changes. Anyhow, here's some explaining as to why things got slated:
There were a lot of submissions that were still WIP that I unfortunately couldn't take into account. Some commentary on some submissions that didn't make it but quite broadly:
-Drought and Chlorophyll both would be failures in my eyes, as Sun is at BEST a feast or famine playstyle and without it being good at the moment I do not want to risk the metagame getting even more volatile towards the playstyle and just call it a day after splashing a new coat of paint on Pyroak without actually making it viable. Self setting was also not in the books as a viable idea since all it does realistically is lower Hurricane's accuracy.
-Some Buffs built around Sleep Moves ideas were submitted but they all felt overbearing the more I thought about them and as such I opted not to include them.
-Any Buff that tried adding 3-4 completely different options hoping to get at least one of them stick was immediately excluded from discussion as it felt like too many cooks in the kitchen whilst lacking a strong direction-coincidentally the exact problem Pyroak faces as is.
-A lot of buffs completely missed the balancing mark by giving absurd stats to Pyroak so upon discussion with mod team they slowly got axed.
You may now discuss this slate, which is not set in stone. It's the 6th where I live so Happy National Lame Duck Day!
QUICK EDIT:
I will not bore you with any idle chit chat, here's the things that I wish to slate:
Keep in mind this thread will remain for 48h so that discussion can be help. If the community wishes to make any changes to any of the Buff Packages slated, the original submitter may follow through and implement the changes. Anyhow, here's some explaining as to why things got slated:
- Spoo's Grassy Surge makes it a heavy hitter- literally. It's definitely on the stronger side of things considering how much Attack it gains, but the counterplay both defensively and offensively is there through recoil and/or revenge killing it with any faster threat (something like Balloon Heatran outspeeds while Lando-T can creep for it). Slack Off + terrain keeps it healthy with ease but if Grassy Terrain runs out it's not as strong as some other BuffedRoaks.
- Snake has a very clear and strong Contrary mid-game breaker into what could become a sweeper; the removal of Leaf Storm makes sure that Grass-types like Arghonaut and to an extent Slowking can effectively check it. It also turns Astrolotl and (sometimes) Dragapult into a favorable match-up. This gives Pyroak a very strong direction without becoming overbearing.
- Dex submitted a change built around Magic Guard, removing 2 of Pyroak's biggest weaknesses: Stealth Rock and Toxic. As such, it's either a Life Orb attacker similar to Krill but even more utility packed in, or just a good Utility mon that beats Heatran consistently. It's not as aimed as some of the other buffs in here but it still hits all the benchmarks we wish it to, especially so with more reliable recovery with Slack Off.
- Darek submitted Grass-type Volcanion. Yep. Another immunity through Flash Fire is very much welcome and the great firepower makes it a slow and targetted tank. If Volcanion can work in OU with a supersoaker Scald, then surely Pyroak can serve a similar role without a move as insane as Steam Eruption while carving its own niche.
- kjnjkmjk1 actually submitted two things and they both made the slate for different reasons: The contrary submission keeps Leaf Storm as part of Pyroak's movepool but removing all special Ground-type coverage, making Pyroak have to pick between utility of Stealth Rock/Aroma/Toxic and hitting Heatran + Astrolotl with Earthquake. With less overall bulk, this version of Pyroak is pressured more easily but also provides a lot more pressure with its STABs. Keeps the ideology of being a somewhat slow tank.
- Flower Veil Roak is a unique Calm Mind user which not only ignores most status but also can't get its defenses dropped by Fire Lash and Shadow Ball. With proper prediction, the Flying-types that already switch into Pyroak can take it down but a carefully played Pyroak can definitely do a ton of damage while safely switch into the likes of Landorus-T and certain Astrolotl. The direction this takes us in is both unique and in line with what Pyroak can achieve.
- Literally a last minute edit, BALLSMASHER adds a very unique Defiant submission but don't let it fool you, this very likely will be a Rock Head set which beats everything not named Tornadus-T. I believe this is the best Dragon Dance submission even if it's really well hidden, as it doesn't overly buff Pyroak but still allows it to blow things up and the option to explode certain Defoggers such as Landorus-T and Zapdos is very, very compelling. No bulk changes means that Tornadus-T is still a big STOP sign without compromising its viability.
There were a lot of submissions that were still WIP that I unfortunately couldn't take into account. Some commentary on some submissions that didn't make it but quite broadly:
-Drought and Chlorophyll both would be failures in my eyes, as Sun is at BEST a feast or famine playstyle and without it being good at the moment I do not want to risk the metagame getting even more volatile towards the playstyle and just call it a day after splashing a new coat of paint on Pyroak without actually making it viable. Self setting was also not in the books as a viable idea since all it does realistically is lower Hurricane's accuracy.
-Some Buffs built around Sleep Moves ideas were submitted but they all felt overbearing the more I thought about them and as such I opted not to include them.
-Any Buff that tried adding 3-4 completely different options hoping to get at least one of them stick was immediately excluded from discussion as it felt like too many cooks in the kitchen whilst lacking a strong direction-coincidentally the exact problem Pyroak faces as is.
-A lot of buffs completely missed the balancing mark by giving absurd stats to Pyroak so upon discussion with mod team they slowly got axed.
You may now discuss this slate, which is not set in stone. It's the 6th where I live so Happy National Lame Duck Day!
QUICK EDIT:
The goal is to be able to have even a small niche that is not reliant on all the stars aligning (see: sun being good in a specific metagame). Think of Hazehawk always being able to to remove boosts and have priority Roost moreso than "Nasty Plot Aurumoth is good for the next 2 weeks until people learn what it does".
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The Flower Veil Calm Mind route seems like the best modest way to go about this. It acts as a combination of White Smoke and Magic Guard (excluding Rocks) to prevent chip damage and Astrolotl from taking advantage of it and allows it to take full advantage of the stats it already has to be a pretty good sweeper and status absorber. The Magic Guard route is my second favourite of the slate as it acts as a slightly better Flower Veil if Rocks are that big of a problem compared to Astro and allows Pyroak to hit everything hard without prior setup. It even allows for niche Dragon Dance sets to be used since Magic Guard eliminates Life Orb damage and recoil, so Flare Blitz + Wood Hammer spam can be a gimmicky, yet somewhat viable strategy for those who want to play around with that. The whole Grass Volcanion idea is pretty decent, but I feel like it’s a bit boring of a route tbh. Boring could be just what it needs though, so it isn’t all too bad of an idea. The buffs that allow for better SpA potential seem like the best fit for Pyroak so far.
Comments from snake!
Spoo's Grassy Surge:
I like this Pyroak build a lot! Swords Dance sweeper seems very capable, and the weight increase motivates Pyroak to choose between Heat Crash and Flare Blitz. As a reminder, although Rillaboom and Tapu Bulu exist as Grassy Surge users, Pyroak can break through Steel-types much more easily between its current access to Fire-type STAB and High Horsepower, as well as being significantly bulkier. I'm unsure if Pyroak would deviate from a Swords Dance + 3 Attacks set, but that set seems extremely capable on its own with the stat buffs spoo proposes.
snake's Contrary:
Obviously, this is my favorite buff package! I'm satisfied with how this is able to use Pyroak's rather odd statline to good effect. It has a lot of offensive potential, but it'll take a turn to really ramp up. Having access to Contrary Overheat, Giga Drain, Earth Power, and Slack Off is a good solid basis, with alternative utility options buried in Pyroak's movepool.
Dex's Magic Guard:
This buff package definitely works. It turns Pyroak into a massively defensive stalwart, and I'd argue this is the only ability that allows it to do so. I appreciate the -10 Special Defense to help counteract Magic Guard's massive strength. However, I don't really see an offensive Life Orb taking off as hard as others do. We've see what happens when Magic Guard users must rely on Life Orb to function for damage output with Krilowatt - they become allergic to Knock Off, rather than be effective Knock Off absorbers. What I do see is Pyroak taking advantage of Life Orb for as long as it can before it inevitably must absorb Knock Off for its team, which is fine. However, this distinction is important.
Darek's Grass-type Volcanion:
Honestly, this is a super solid build. It encourages 3 Attacks + Recovery or 2 Attacks + Utility + Recovery well enough, and Flash Fire increases its defensive utility to an acceptable level. Lava Plume / Leaf Storm / Earth Power / Slack Off sounds very obnoxious, but not impossible, to switch into.
kjnjkmjk1's Contrary:
This Contrary build can build up Special Attack boosts much faster than mine, but it just doesn't feel as coherent. It's odd seeing Earth Power going away after Pyroak having had it for so long.
kjnjkmjk1's Flower Veil:
Flower Veil + Calm Mind is a strong combination, as having a Toxic-immune Pokemon that's not Poison or Steel-type is unique. I don't really like this option as much as I do others, but I can't deny that it's a valid one.
BALLSMASHER's Defiant:
I sort of doubt that Defiant will see much use, but it's there. Dragon Dance sweeper just doesn't seem like the move to focus on for reasons Lasen listed.
My personal top three would be:
Spoo's Grassy Surge:
I like this Pyroak build a lot! Swords Dance sweeper seems very capable, and the weight increase motivates Pyroak to choose between Heat Crash and Flare Blitz. As a reminder, although Rillaboom and Tapu Bulu exist as Grassy Surge users, Pyroak can break through Steel-types much more easily between its current access to Fire-type STAB and High Horsepower, as well as being significantly bulkier. I'm unsure if Pyroak would deviate from a Swords Dance + 3 Attacks set, but that set seems extremely capable on its own with the stat buffs spoo proposes.
snake's Contrary:
Obviously, this is my favorite buff package! I'm satisfied with how this is able to use Pyroak's rather odd statline to good effect. It has a lot of offensive potential, but it'll take a turn to really ramp up. Having access to Contrary Overheat, Giga Drain, Earth Power, and Slack Off is a good solid basis, with alternative utility options buried in Pyroak's movepool.
Dex's Magic Guard:
This buff package definitely works. It turns Pyroak into a massively defensive stalwart, and I'd argue this is the only ability that allows it to do so. I appreciate the -10 Special Defense to help counteract Magic Guard's massive strength. However, I don't really see an offensive Life Orb taking off as hard as others do. We've see what happens when Magic Guard users must rely on Life Orb to function for damage output with Krilowatt - they become allergic to Knock Off, rather than be effective Knock Off absorbers. What I do see is Pyroak taking advantage of Life Orb for as long as it can before it inevitably must absorb Knock Off for its team, which is fine. However, this distinction is important.
Darek's Grass-type Volcanion:
Honestly, this is a super solid build. It encourages 3 Attacks + Recovery or 2 Attacks + Utility + Recovery well enough, and Flash Fire increases its defensive utility to an acceptable level. Lava Plume / Leaf Storm / Earth Power / Slack Off sounds very obnoxious, but not impossible, to switch into.
kjnjkmjk1's Contrary:
This Contrary build can build up Special Attack boosts much faster than mine, but it just doesn't feel as coherent. It's odd seeing Earth Power going away after Pyroak having had it for so long.
kjnjkmjk1's Flower Veil:
Flower Veil + Calm Mind is a strong combination, as having a Toxic-immune Pokemon that's not Poison or Steel-type is unique. I don't really like this option as much as I do others, but I can't deny that it's a valid one.
BALLSMASHER's Defiant:
I sort of doubt that Defiant will see much use, but it's there. Dragon Dance sweeper just doesn't seem like the move to focus on for reasons Lasen listed.
My personal top three would be:
- snake's Contrary
- Spoo's Grassy Surge
- Darek's Grass-type Volcanion
Spoo's Grassy Surge:
Grassy Surge is simple, instantly gives us a role on a team, and is meaningfully different from the existing Grassy Surge users. W.r.t. Rillaboom we have the defensive ability to take far more hits thanks to greater bulk, can bypass Corviknight more easily, and can more feasibly run HHP, letting us have a slightly easier time vs pex, at the cost of losing Knock Off, U-turn, and a lot of initial speed. Vs Tapu Bulu we lack Stone Edge, Horn Leech, and a lot of initial speed losing us the ability to bypass Zapdos/Torn nearly as easily, but are a bit better into Corv and have GGlide. That said I'd like to see spoo cut speed enough to make us slower than Torn at +1 Spe cause this really doesn't need the flexibility to also be an exceptional DD mon.
snake's Contrary:
Good defensive utility thanks to Pyroak's great initial stats, and Contrary specifically covering the Astrolotl and Dragapult (more generally Sball user) matchups, amazing offensive presence thanks to Contrary Overheat, and some interesting moveslot options with stuff like Aromatherapy slotting easily onto the chassis. That said, this is one of the submissions that can most easily get out of control. I think if this is voted in it'll have a lot of attention from the metagame council in the tuning stage.
Dex's Magic Guard:
This one will work but it does not bring joy to me. It'll likely be mid-low when voting comes around for me.
Darek's Grass-type Volcanion:
Another solid build that would likely reach success. This has solid defensive utility, great power, and workable longevity. Don't have much to comment on; its a good build that should place highly.
kjnjkmjk1's Contrary:
I think this build undershoots the mark a tad. Losing ground-type coverage, significant bulk, and also being forced to rely on Synthesis do make me worry a tad that it'll be left a bit too weak to really see niche usage. I'd like to see kj either add Slack off or remove the HP nerf here.
kjnjkmjk1's Flower Veil:
This is one of the two spreads where I worry about potentially overshooting the mark. Toxic Immune CM with the sheer defensive stats that Pyroak brings to the table is something where I could see it destabilizing the meta a tad. That said it does bring a fair bit of defensive utility to any team it is slotted onto. I'd have to see how to plays in practice before saying much else, but there's a load of power here. Overall this is a package that has a lot of potential, but is locked into one gameplan.
BALLSMASHER's Defiant:
This is definitely a DD build. It will be an off-pick on HO that wants a better zera/koko matchup, but is imo unlikely to be a fixture.
My ranking is likely
Snake Contrary > Spoo Surge > Darek Volc > KJ Contrary > Ballsmasher Defiant > KJ Flower Veil = Dex Mguard
Not that any are bad, as its all a good slate, just my personal preferences here.
Grassy Surge is simple, instantly gives us a role on a team, and is meaningfully different from the existing Grassy Surge users. W.r.t. Rillaboom we have the defensive ability to take far more hits thanks to greater bulk, can bypass Corviknight more easily, and can more feasibly run HHP, letting us have a slightly easier time vs pex, at the cost of losing Knock Off, U-turn, and a lot of initial speed. Vs Tapu Bulu we lack Stone Edge, Horn Leech, and a lot of initial speed losing us the ability to bypass Zapdos/Torn nearly as easily, but are a bit better into Corv and have GGlide. That said I'd like to see spoo cut speed enough to make us slower than Torn at +1 Spe cause this really doesn't need the flexibility to also be an exceptional DD mon.
snake's Contrary:
Good defensive utility thanks to Pyroak's great initial stats, and Contrary specifically covering the Astrolotl and Dragapult (more generally Sball user) matchups, amazing offensive presence thanks to Contrary Overheat, and some interesting moveslot options with stuff like Aromatherapy slotting easily onto the chassis. That said, this is one of the submissions that can most easily get out of control. I think if this is voted in it'll have a lot of attention from the metagame council in the tuning stage.
Dex's Magic Guard:
This one will work but it does not bring joy to me. It'll likely be mid-low when voting comes around for me.
Darek's Grass-type Volcanion:
Another solid build that would likely reach success. This has solid defensive utility, great power, and workable longevity. Don't have much to comment on; its a good build that should place highly.
kjnjkmjk1's Contrary:
I think this build undershoots the mark a tad. Losing ground-type coverage, significant bulk, and also being forced to rely on Synthesis do make me worry a tad that it'll be left a bit too weak to really see niche usage. I'd like to see kj either add Slack off or remove the HP nerf here.
kjnjkmjk1's Flower Veil:
This is one of the two spreads where I worry about potentially overshooting the mark. Toxic Immune CM with the sheer defensive stats that Pyroak brings to the table is something where I could see it destabilizing the meta a tad. That said it does bring a fair bit of defensive utility to any team it is slotted onto. I'd have to see how to plays in practice before saying much else, but there's a load of power here. Overall this is a package that has a lot of potential, but is locked into one gameplan.
BALLSMASHER's Defiant:
This is definitely a DD build. It will be an off-pick on HO that wants a better zera/koko matchup, but is imo unlikely to be a fixture.
My ranking is likely
Snake Contrary > Spoo Surge > Darek Volc > KJ Contrary > Ballsmasher Defiant > KJ Flower Veil = Dex Mguard
Not that any are bad, as its all a good slate, just my personal preferences here.
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I would add -Dragon Dance to spoo's buff.
65 Speed gives 251 Speed, which is enough to outspeed Tornadus-T. +1 Jolly Flare Blitz has a 12.5% chance to OHKO 252/4 without a boosting item of any kind, which means that you really don't need much to blow past what should be (imo) a fairly reliable offensive answer to Pyroak. Boosted Wood Hammer's from a Dragon Dance set sound also terrifying under Grassy Terrain, especially since Pyroak has the raw HP and healing from terrain to mitigate the recoil. But the big difference between spoo's and Mr. SMASHER9000's physical submissions is spoo's Grassy opens up both Swords Dance Grassy Glide and defensive utility of pseudo-EQ res+ Slack Off. There is just a lot going on here, and I don't like the idea of giving Grassy Surge the flexibility between Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. It feels like an immense pressure in the teambuilder that doesn't need to be there; Swords Dance Grassy Surge looks good enough to boost Pyroak's relevancy without making me need to tear my hair out trying to run several different answers for its offensive sets.
I don't have much else to say about the rest, although I am curious to see if people will vote for both Contrary packages close in rank or if they will compete so much with each other that neither can succeed in moving past poll 1.
edit: quz's proposal of cutting speed would work too, although cutting DD is a better net gain imo
65 Speed gives 251 Speed, which is enough to outspeed Tornadus-T. +1 Jolly Flare Blitz has a 12.5% chance to OHKO 252/4 without a boosting item of any kind, which means that you really don't need much to blow past what should be (imo) a fairly reliable offensive answer to Pyroak. Boosted Wood Hammer's from a Dragon Dance set sound also terrifying under Grassy Terrain, especially since Pyroak has the raw HP and healing from terrain to mitigate the recoil. But the big difference between spoo's and Mr. SMASHER9000's physical submissions is spoo's Grassy opens up both Swords Dance Grassy Glide and defensive utility of pseudo-EQ res+ Slack Off. There is just a lot going on here, and I don't like the idea of giving Grassy Surge the flexibility between Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. It feels like an immense pressure in the teambuilder that doesn't need to be there; Swords Dance Grassy Surge looks good enough to boost Pyroak's relevancy without making me need to tear my hair out trying to run several different answers for its offensive sets.
I don't have much else to say about the rest, although I am curious to see if people will vote for both Contrary packages close in rank or if they will compete so much with each other that neither can succeed in moving past poll 1.
edit: quz's proposal of cutting speed would work too, although cutting DD is a better net gain imo
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After making a (poor) Calm Mind set and a poor Contrary set... I much prefer the options here to what I've made. I am leaning towards snake's Contrary and kjnjkmjk1's Flower Veil as my top two picks right now, as they exemplify both of those routes in great ways and give Pyroak a clear defined niche where it can thrive.
Outside that, I really like the idea of Darek's Grass-type Volcanion. This is a very powerful bulky offensive threat that generates a lot of switch ins and can actually make use of its offensive options very well. The bonus SpA also helps inflate its stats by quite a bit too, giving it more of a threatening presence.
To look at the other side of the coin, I am not a big fan of BALLSMASHER's Defiant set. Even as far as Dragon Dancer sets go, I dont think these simple stat buffs are enough to make Pyroak viable. Likewise, I feel there is no chance at all that Defiant will ever be used over Rock Head. This looks like a change that's just gonna buff Pyroak from bad to less bad but still unviable. I'm not as big of a fan of it, but I would much rather go with Spoo's Grassy Surge buff set instead for the same niche.
Outside that, I really like the idea of Darek's Grass-type Volcanion. This is a very powerful bulky offensive threat that generates a lot of switch ins and can actually make use of its offensive options very well. The bonus SpA also helps inflate its stats by quite a bit too, giving it more of a threatening presence.
To look at the other side of the coin, I am not a big fan of BALLSMASHER's Defiant set. Even as far as Dragon Dancer sets go, I dont think these simple stat buffs are enough to make Pyroak viable. Likewise, I feel there is no chance at all that Defiant will ever be used over Rock Head. This looks like a change that's just gonna buff Pyroak from bad to less bad but still unviable. I'm not as big of a fan of it, but I would much rather go with Spoo's Grassy Surge buff set instead for the same niche.
I agree with many of the points brought up so far and am generally a big fan of the slate, although I believe kjnjkmjk1's Flower Veil should be removed from the slate. CM sweepers tend to be very matchup fishy by nature, and immunity to Status coupled with sheer bulk and few resistances poses a very serious threat to many builds. With a metagame that already feels bloated in terms of threats, adding yet another wincon doesn't seem to be the right play.
Breaking down Pyroak's specific type weaknesses, Rock-type moves are pretty much nonexistent outside of the occasional coverage Stone Edge. Poison only makes a meaningful appearance on Slowking-G, and at +1 SpD, 252 HP/ 0 SpD Roak easily avoids a 2hko and can never be poisoned. Flying is where the main answers come in: Gapdos and Venom-E can always take out Roak but can't switch in on Lava Plume. However, the main crux of the issue comes down to the Special Flying-type attackers.
Of all the counterplay listed so far, by far the most splashable answers are these special flying types: Tornadus-T, Venomicon-P, and Zapdos. Here's where the crux of the problem lies: CM Pyroak can cheese its most common answers by dodging Hurricane. Given the nature of CM Roak as a bulky wincon, I fear this will frequently force situations of "If I miss this Hurricane I lose" which is obviously undesirable.
Admittedly, other counterplay exists in Encore Astro, Haze Pex, and Circle Throw Argho, but with Wisp generally being preferred over Encore on Astro, and Slowbro stocks being incredibly high for the bulky water slot, many teams are left with having a Hurricane user as their main Roak answer.
That being said, I propose we either a) Remove this package from the slate or b) Remove Slack Off from the package. Forcing CM Roak onto 8 PP recovery makes counterplay a bit more inconsistent, as Roak boosting out of Hurricane 2hko range is less problematic for the opponent now. So yeah that's the end of the post ig
Breaking down Pyroak's specific type weaknesses, Rock-type moves are pretty much nonexistent outside of the occasional coverage Stone Edge. Poison only makes a meaningful appearance on Slowking-G, and at +1 SpD, 252 HP/ 0 SpD Roak easily avoids a 2hko and can never be poisoned. Flying is where the main answers come in: Gapdos and Venom-E can always take out Roak but can't switch in on Lava Plume. However, the main crux of the issue comes down to the Special Flying-type attackers.
Of all the counterplay listed so far, by far the most splashable answers are these special flying types: Tornadus-T, Venomicon-P, and Zapdos. Here's where the crux of the problem lies: CM Pyroak can cheese its most common answers by dodging Hurricane. Given the nature of CM Roak as a bulky wincon, I fear this will frequently force situations of "If I miss this Hurricane I lose" which is obviously undesirable.
Admittedly, other counterplay exists in Encore Astro, Haze Pex, and Circle Throw Argho, but with Wisp generally being preferred over Encore on Astro, and Slowbro stocks being incredibly high for the bulky water slot, many teams are left with having a Hurricane user as their main Roak answer.
That being said, I propose we either a) Remove this package from the slate or b) Remove Slack Off from the package. Forcing CM Roak onto 8 PP recovery makes counterplay a bit more inconsistent, as Roak boosting out of Hurricane 2hko range is less problematic for the opponent now. So yeah that's the end of the post ig
Gonna call it a day a bit early since I asked all of the submitters to (potentially) edit their posts so I could get some extra sleep. With that, the slate is:
Package 1 by Spoo
Package 2 by snake_rattler
Package 3 by dex
Package 4 by Darek
Package 5 by kjnjkmjk1 (Contrary)
Package 6 by kjnjkmjk1 (Flower Veil)
Package 7 by BALLSMASHER9000
Between the discussion in this thread and the discord, some minor edits have been made to both of kjnjkmjk1's submissions and spoo's. As such, I am even happier with the current slate than I originally was. The next step of course is to put all of these options up for voting! I am done for the moment and I will see you all very soon. May the best option win!
Package 1 by Spoo
Package 2 by snake_rattler
Package 3 by dex
Package 4 by Darek
Package 5 by kjnjkmjk1 (Contrary)
Package 6 by kjnjkmjk1 (Flower Veil)
Package 7 by BALLSMASHER9000
Between the discussion in this thread and the discord, some minor edits have been made to both of kjnjkmjk1's submissions and spoo's. As such, I am even happier with the current slate than I originally was. The next step of course is to put all of these options up for voting! I am done for the moment and I will see you all very soon. May the best option win!
Since everything is finalized and it's right before voting time, I think I'd like to offer some thoughts on a few slate options that I am for and against. I'll do my best to keep it short since there's very little else that can be done to sway people aside from just minor discord chats.
My top three from the slate in no particular order are spoo's Grassy Surge option, snake's Contrary option and Darek's Grass Volcanion option. I feel that all three of these options have a very reasonable amount of balancing that will allow Pyroak to have a relevant niche in the metagame. Spoo's Grassy Surge option is a great example of this as it allow Pyroak to fill a role that we're already seen with Rillaboom and Tapu Bulu, but is unique in that Pyroak has real ways to threaten Corviknight and Skarmory. the package also removing Dragon Dance I think is a wonderful way to show that there was a consideration in ensuring that Pyroak isn't strictly overpowered. the same sentiment is seen in snake's contrary (which I vastly prefer to kj's contrary package). The removal of Leaf Storm I believe is a necessary evil that keeps Pyroak from spamming two very powerful moves to boost. The set snake presents is a very reasonable one in my eyes, and I admire the means of only removing what was added this gen. Darek's Grass Volcanion set , while simple, is also very straightforward to understand and glean implications it would have on the metagame. Clearly adding an immunity ould absolutely increase Pyroak's viability, making it a reasonable Heatran and Astrolotl check. I think it's very straightforward, though I wish ome calcs had been included in the post.
I think ultimately these are my top three. I think the other options go a little beyond what's necessary in buffing power. All respect to kj's two submission that got slated, but I think both are far more powerful than what is needed to buff Pyroak. Giving Pyroak two different contrary options, while very cool, makes Pyroak significantly more powerful than what we said we wanted out of this buffing process. The same goes for having Flower veil + defensive boosting. Pyroak being immune to status and stat drops, without any nerfs to defensive stats is incredibly danger. I am just thankful that this package is not given any extra recovery as I genuinely think that this set would be near broken with it 9though maybe I'm overestimating it). This defensive concern also correlates with Dex' package which, while clearly showing concerns about defensive longevity with the boon of Magica Guard, also gets a little too tanky IMO. My main thoughts here go to Clefable which, with Magic Guard and a stat spread of 95 / 70 / 73 / 95 / 90 / 60, manages to be mainstay in the metgame due to its incredibly vast movepool and immunity to Dragon moves. If Pyroak were to have Magic Guard with a 120 / 70 /105 / 95 / 80 / 70 spread, even without an immunity, Pyroak at an unboosted level is more tanky than Clef and has nearly just as wide of a movepool for its typing. I think I'm just a little scared at how effective Pyroak would be given all of the moves it currently has, if it were to obtain Magic guard.
No strong feelings on Ballsmasher's package. If it wins, that's fine with me I suppose.
Anyways, feel free to roast my opinions, but this is just my, admittedly conservative, take.
My top three from the slate in no particular order are spoo's Grassy Surge option, snake's Contrary option and Darek's Grass Volcanion option. I feel that all three of these options have a very reasonable amount of balancing that will allow Pyroak to have a relevant niche in the metagame. Spoo's Grassy Surge option is a great example of this as it allow Pyroak to fill a role that we're already seen with Rillaboom and Tapu Bulu, but is unique in that Pyroak has real ways to threaten Corviknight and Skarmory. the package also removing Dragon Dance I think is a wonderful way to show that there was a consideration in ensuring that Pyroak isn't strictly overpowered. the same sentiment is seen in snake's contrary (which I vastly prefer to kj's contrary package). The removal of Leaf Storm I believe is a necessary evil that keeps Pyroak from spamming two very powerful moves to boost. The set snake presents is a very reasonable one in my eyes, and I admire the means of only removing what was added this gen. Darek's Grass Volcanion set , while simple, is also very straightforward to understand and glean implications it would have on the metagame. Clearly adding an immunity ould absolutely increase Pyroak's viability, making it a reasonable Heatran and Astrolotl check. I think it's very straightforward, though I wish ome calcs had been included in the post.
I think ultimately these are my top three. I think the other options go a little beyond what's necessary in buffing power. All respect to kj's two submission that got slated, but I think both are far more powerful than what is needed to buff Pyroak. Giving Pyroak two different contrary options, while very cool, makes Pyroak significantly more powerful than what we said we wanted out of this buffing process. The same goes for having Flower veil + defensive boosting. Pyroak being immune to status and stat drops, without any nerfs to defensive stats is incredibly danger. I am just thankful that this package is not given any extra recovery as I genuinely think that this set would be near broken with it 9though maybe I'm overestimating it). This defensive concern also correlates with Dex' package which, while clearly showing concerns about defensive longevity with the boon of Magica Guard, also gets a little too tanky IMO. My main thoughts here go to Clefable which, with Magic Guard and a stat spread of 95 / 70 / 73 / 95 / 90 / 60, manages to be mainstay in the metgame due to its incredibly vast movepool and immunity to Dragon moves. If Pyroak were to have Magic Guard with a 120 / 70 /105 / 95 / 80 / 70 spread, even without an immunity, Pyroak at an unboosted level is more tanky than Clef and has nearly just as wide of a movepool for its typing. I think I'm just a little scared at how effective Pyroak would be given all of the moves it currently has, if it were to obtain Magic guard.
No strong feelings on Ballsmasher's package. If it wins, that's fine with me I suppose.
Anyways, feel free to roast my opinions, but this is just my, admittedly conservative, take.
Hello, this is going to be patched in eventuallyTM, but the Metagame council is doing a quick-nerf of Pyroak in order to ensure that the winter seasonal isn't completely screwed up.
The changes that we are going with are the following:
Special Attack: 95 => 75
Slack Off in movepool => Slack Off not in movepool.
The reasoning for these changes is the following. -20 SpA means that modest Pyroak goes from a 100% chance to OHKO Zapdos at +2 to a 50% chance to do so. This also has significant implications for its matchup into pokemon such as Tyranitar and to a lesser extent Tornadus. Additionally by cutting its special attack, we directly take evs from its other stats, indirectly affecting its overall bulk. Removing Slack Off is a secondary change meant to target its longevity in the face of passive damage, which has been a somewhat common complaint about the pokemon, and makes it far weaker in the face of moves such as Knock Off.
We are aiming to look at these changes, especially the Slack Off removal, once we have 2-3 weeks of winter seasonal data. With that said, if anyone participating in the winter seasonal would like to volunteer to send in replays that feature post-nerf pyroak, please do. Again, we will do the final meta council tuning in 2-3 weeks time, so expect an update then.
The changes that we are going with are the following:
Special Attack: 95 => 75
Slack Off in movepool => Slack Off not in movepool.
The reasoning for these changes is the following. -20 SpA means that modest Pyroak goes from a 100% chance to OHKO Zapdos at +2 to a 50% chance to do so. This also has significant implications for its matchup into pokemon such as Tyranitar and to a lesser extent Tornadus. Additionally by cutting its special attack, we directly take evs from its other stats, indirectly affecting its overall bulk. Removing Slack Off is a secondary change meant to target its longevity in the face of passive damage, which has been a somewhat common complaint about the pokemon, and makes it far weaker in the face of moves such as Knock Off.
We are aiming to look at these changes, especially the Slack Off removal, once we have 2-3 weeks of winter seasonal data. With that said, if anyone participating in the winter seasonal would like to volunteer to send in replays that feature post-nerf pyroak, please do. Again, we will do the final meta council tuning in 2-3 weeks time, so expect an update then.
Reopening this thread;
Its time for meta council tuning.
At this point we've seen roak enter the meta, proceed to be a literal dump truck of a mon, and get quick-nerfed. The meta council is going to propose tuning starting from its current state (that is post 20 spA nerf), however we'd like some input from the wider community. While Pyroak is definitely not overpowered currently, some of us do feel like it could still deserve some adjustments to bring it to a more healthy place. It definitely can feel unfair at points when most of the counterplay to Roak sorta just loses to it after missing a Hurricane / Stone Edge against it, and the pace at which it gains power does feel quite worrying given its exceptional mixed bulk.
To summarize the previous quick-nerf that the meta council implemented, we removed 20 Special Attack, changing from 95 to 75, and removed Slack Off. We think these changes are probably still safe to stay, however if anyone has thoughts on how to make Pyroak feel a tad more interactive / fair to play against, we'd love to hear them, and these chances can be altered if a sufficiently persuasive argument on other routes is given.
Its time for meta council tuning.
At this point we've seen roak enter the meta, proceed to be a literal dump truck of a mon, and get quick-nerfed. The meta council is going to propose tuning starting from its current state (that is post 20 spA nerf), however we'd like some input from the wider community. While Pyroak is definitely not overpowered currently, some of us do feel like it could still deserve some adjustments to bring it to a more healthy place. It definitely can feel unfair at points when most of the counterplay to Roak sorta just loses to it after missing a Hurricane / Stone Edge against it, and the pace at which it gains power does feel quite worrying given its exceptional mixed bulk.
To summarize the previous quick-nerf that the meta council implemented, we removed 20 Special Attack, changing from 95 to 75, and removed Slack Off. We think these changes are probably still safe to stay, however if anyone has thoughts on how to make Pyroak feel a tad more interactive / fair to play against, we'd love to hear them, and these chances can be altered if a sufficiently persuasive argument on other routes is given.
To propose some changes myself, the main thing that really strikes me about Pyroak is how reliant any revenge killing is on high-power low accuracy moves, and how it can just demolish a lot of the users of those moves if they ever miss. This is less true in the age of strata spam, but its titanic bulk is really where I get worried here. A change that I think could work would be a significant HP nerf, on par with -10-15 base HP. We could probably go a tad further if we added Slack back, but w/e. Its important to note that the mon itself is balanced atm, I just sorta want to adjust counterplay to the mon.
How do people feel about removing Earth Power so Roak has to rely on Scorching Sands for its Ground coverage? It's a noticeable drop in power that makes it a lot worse into mons like Heatran, Astro, Pex, and Glowking.
I could also see removing Aromatherapy so that Pyroak is much more vulnerable to status (maybe cut Safeguard as well).
Weird mon to balance because a lot of the weaknesses it has are either uncommon, such as Poison and Rock, or have consistency issues, like Flying and Rock. A bulk cut would mean it has to further constrain its investment to reach certain benchmarks, which makes it overall worse, but there's not really a way to make Torn hit Hurricane more often.
I could also see removing Aromatherapy so that Pyroak is much more vulnerable to status (maybe cut Safeguard as well).
Weird mon to balance because a lot of the weaknesses it has are either uncommon, such as Poison and Rock, or have consistency issues, like Flying and Rock. A bulk cut would mean it has to further constrain its investment to reach certain benchmarks, which makes it overall worse, but there's not really a way to make Torn hit Hurricane more often.
Probably in the minority here, but I don't really think Pyroak needs additional changes in all honesty. Outside of Hurricane misses, I honestly never really felt that counterplay was really unfair, or that it really felt super-restricting when teambuilding, and Stratagem's recent surge only helps add to the amount of stuff in the current metagame that can keep Pyroak in check.
That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to quziel's proposal of a drop to Base HP just to open up a bit more counterplay, I'm just not really in the camp that it's really necessary to keep it in check. Removing Aromatherapy is also on the table if we decide to go forward with additonal changes, as I do think that giving Pyroak more of a vulnerability to status would help give it an additional level of counter-play for defensive teams.
(Obviously this is in respect to Pyroak's current state. It goes without saying that we shouldn't bring back 95 SpA + Slack Off).
That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to quziel's proposal of a drop to Base HP just to open up a bit more counterplay, I'm just not really in the camp that it's really necessary to keep it in check. Removing Aromatherapy is also on the table if we decide to go forward with additonal changes, as I do think that giving Pyroak more of a vulnerability to status would help give it an additional level of counter-play for defensive teams.
(Obviously this is in respect to Pyroak's current state. It goes without saying that we shouldn't bring back 95 SpA + Slack Off).
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Even after the first nerf, I feel like Pyroak has the same problem it did before where it can kinda just stay in and trade well into a lot of answers. That being said, Pyroak is kinda-sorta-but-not-really balanced by the fact that the mon is quite difficult to build with. Pyroak lacks the speed, meaningful resists, and immediate power to justify a teamslot, but when it comes in is still incredibly stupid.
I feel like we need to have a more concise direction on what sort of role we want Pyroak to perform because at the moment it feels a lot like a Fat Deathball. On paper I think we all wanted to have a defensive mon that can provide utility via Rocks/Aromatherapy, but in practice this mon functions more like a tank, and I think we should lean into that more. I think we should strive for something kinda-sorta-similar to Melmetal where it has the potential to stay in and trade well into a lot of threats but is limited by its speed and longevity.
Because of this I feel like my go-to nerf would be to remove Synthesis. It forces Pyroak players to manage their health better so they can't just hard switch into Landorus and such, and also opens up a lot more revenge killing options by letting your chip become more meaningful. So yeah idk this was kinda rambly
However this does not address the fact that LO + 4 attacks TR Roak is cheating
I feel like we need to have a more concise direction on what sort of role we want Pyroak to perform because at the moment it feels a lot like a Fat Deathball. On paper I think we all wanted to have a defensive mon that can provide utility via Rocks/Aromatherapy, but in practice this mon functions more like a tank, and I think we should lean into that more. I think we should strive for something kinda-sorta-similar to Melmetal where it has the potential to stay in and trade well into a lot of threats but is limited by its speed and longevity.
Because of this I feel like my go-to nerf would be to remove Synthesis. It forces Pyroak players to manage their health better so they can't just hard switch into Landorus and such, and also opens up a lot more revenge killing options by letting your chip become more meaningful. So yeah idk this was kinda rambly
However this does not address the fact that LO + 4 attacks TR Roak is cheating
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