Defunct CAP Buff 2: Pyroak

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WIP 2
+Skill Link
-White Smoke
+25 Att
-25 SpA
+15 SpD
+Rock Blast
+Scale Shot (optional)


Dragon Dance STAB Bullet Seed with 95 Att/75 Base Speed backed up by Heat Crash. Its a unique gap in the market, no native access to Skill Link Bullet Seed for any pokemon yet, Rock Head and Scale Shot give coverage. On Sun Teams, Growth gives back some oomph to SpA in exchange for Speed.
(Lurker, but not poster there, so I might be talking complete thrash.)

It's a nitpick, but as far as I'm aware, Bullet Seed + Skill Link is available to both Mega Heracross and Cincinno, though admittedly one is not among us anymore while the other is not exactly OU. Anyway, I find the Scale Shot idea very creative, since Dragon is one of the two types, with Fire, that resists both Pyroak's STABs. I guess that's a neat way to get through Astrolotl and Dragapult, in addition to the Spe boost, on a SD set? Something like SD/Bullet Seed/Flare Blitz/Scale Shot seems a nice set.
 
(Lurker, but not poster there, so I might be talking complete thrash.)

It's a nitpick, but as far as I'm aware, Bullet Seed + Skill Link is available to both Mega Heracross and Cincinno, though admittedly one is not among us anymore while the other is not exactly OU.
Correct: sorry the Unique angle I was gunning at was STAB skill link Bullet seed: Megacross hits harder, but the inclusion of STAB and possible speed tier manipulation (I need to run some numbers on the speed tbf, was phone posting during lunch) could gi give it a direction/objective.
 

Bloopyghost

guging
is a Pre-Contributor
It's sort of a meta reason, but I know all this is gonna be discussed ad nauseum then finally sent to voting. Knowing that, I haven't seen anyone proposing 2 ability changes at once, so I picked my favorites. As someone who primarily plays draft leagues, that change would shoot pyroak straight from tier 4 to tier 1 because of the versatility in team comps you can draft with it. I absolutely don't expect that to be something that passes, but it was a fun theory mon. TLDR I'm still on team chlorophyll but contrary is a cool second place idea
Kj's point is that your buff package is both lacking and unfocused. If you're gonna do this, you should justify why your package has two abilities so you can incentivize people to actually vote for it. All you did was pick two abilities and didn't explain why outside of "versatility," which doesn't make it appealing to vote for.

You also did not address Kj's concern on keeping both Leaf Storm and Overheat on a Contrary package. As Kj points out, there have been several posts in this thread that explain why having both Leaf Storm and Overheat on Contrary Pyroak without any other changes is a bad idea. If you believe it wouldn't be unhealthy, there should be a thorough explanation in your package as to why (again as Kj points out).

I would highly suggest looking at other users’ posts to see how they present their buff packages.
 

dex

Hard as Vince Carter’s knee cartilage is
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As someone who primarily plays draft leagues, that change would shoot pyroak straight from tier 4 to tier 1 because of the versatility in team comps you can draft with it.
Luckily we play the CAP metagame and are doing this buff for that metagame. Just because it “would be good in a draft league” does not make it good for SS CAP, and that really should not be a reasoning for a buff. Having two strong abilities and no other changes lacks the focus of the other packages that have been submitted.
 

reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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Final Submission

+Desolate Land, -White Smoke


In terms of what it does, this is a clear and significant addition of power. This represents Water immunity, a huge boost in the reliability of Synthesis, a boost to Lava Plume and free and reliable Solar Beams. For a Grass/Fire type, that is a lot to get without the generic power of, say, Magic Guard. The issue, of course, is that only Primal Groudon has ever actually gotten Desolate Land, and we have traditionally not worked with those sort of signature abilities.

If we are cool with allowing this, I think it fits what we are looking for really, really effectively.
 
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Final Submission for both.

Buff Idea 1:
+Contrary, -White Smoke
-Earth Power, -Scorching Sands
+10 Spe


EDIT: Eased up the stat nerf after some feedback, by removing the -10 SpA and -10 SpD nerfs and adding back 5 HP on the HP nerf.
EDIT 2: Due to continued feedback on the buff potentially undershooting, removed the HP nerf.

This is a very different take on the Contrary buff. This one allows Pyroak to keep both Overheat and Leaf Storm, which gives it a very large amount of boosting and extremely high power potential. In exchange, I've substantially docked its bulk, particularly on the special side, in order to make it easier to revenge kill. I've also removed its special Ground coverage, which forces it to decide between running Earthquake and being walled by Heatran. The Speed boost is just there to give it a more workable speed tier that allows it to naturally outspeed Corviknight.

Possible changes: the stat numbers are very open to adjustment. Also open to removing Earthquake. However, I'm fairly set on removing special Ground coverage to keep it from being completely unwallable.

For reference, its stats now look like this:
120/70/105/95/90/70

An example set might look like this (stolen from snake_rattler with the appropriate adjustments):
Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 212 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Leaf Storm
- Earthquake / Toxic / Stealth Rock / Aromatherapy
- Synthesis

44 Spe EVs allows it to outspeed Arghonaut. You have the mandatory combination of Overheat and Leaf Storm, alongside Synthesis for recovery. Earthquake allows Pyroak to hit Heatran and Astrolotl, although at a reduced level due to the lack of investment and Pyroak's low Attack. The other slashes are various utility moves that can be used to take advantage of the switches Pyroak can force. Toxic and Stealth Rock are both fairly explanatory, but Aromatherapy both helps Pyroak with its own issues with Toxic and allows it to serve as a cleric in a meta with very few clerics.

Note that on neutral targets, Overheat and Leaf Storm are identical.

+2 212 SpA Pyroak Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Arghonaut: 330-390 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Arghonaut: 82-97 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

212 SpA Pyroak Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 199-235 (52 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 397-468 (103.9 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 105-123 (33.1 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 209-246 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

212 SpA Pyroak Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 60-72 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 121-144 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 241-285 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 212 SpA Pyroak Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 120-142 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

0- Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 184-220 (47.6 - 56.9%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 204-244 (52.8 - 63.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Astrolotl: 138-164 (38.6 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Astrolotl: 124-148 (34.7 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Buff Idea 2:
+Flower Veil, -White Smoke
+Calm Mind


EDIT: Removed Slack Off due to concerns about stalling out Hurricanes.

Flower Veil is a good ability that only works with Grass-types, and is currently stuck on a non-Grass type. Now that this buff attaches it to a Grass-type, it provides Pyroak with useful benefits, such as the ability to absorb status (namely Toxic) and ignore stat drops (such as from Fire Lash Astrolotl and Shadow Ball Dragapult). Both of these traits lend themselves to defensive boosting, which is why Calm Mind is added to give Pyroak some offensive presence. Slack Off is added to give reliable healing.

Possible changes: for more offensive presence, I might consider switching to Nasty Plot instead, allowing it to fulfill a similar role to how Venonicom-Prologue currently works. I am also open to adding in a Special Attack boost to give Pyroak better initial firepower. Immunity could work as an alternative that just provides the Toxic immunity, although it is difficult to argue past Flower Veil's additional defensive qualities.


Example set probably looks like this:
Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast / Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Synthesis / Giga Drain

60 Speed EVs outspeed Corviknight, the rest is dumped into HP and Defense. This is a fairly basic setup with Calm Mind as the setup move, alongside Fire and Ground coverage. I set Flamethrower as the first slash for Fire STAB due to its reliability, but one could also go with Fire Blast for more power or Lava Plume for the burn chance. Earth Power is very useful for dealing with defensive Pokemon like Heatran and Toxapex that would otherwise get in the way of a sweep. Synthesis is the reliable recovery of choice, although one might opt to run Giga Drain instead to hit Arghonaut and get healing that way.

0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 282-332 (63.5 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 186-222 (41.8 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 140-168 (31.5 - 37.8%) -- 89% chance to 3HKO
Can outtank 0 SpA Tornadus-T at +1 into +2.

56+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 360-426 (81 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 240-284 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
56+ SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Unlikely to survive two Zapdos Hurricanes unless already starting at +2 or higher.

0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 92-110 (30.2 - 36.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 136-162 (44.7 - 53.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 182-216 (59.8 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Toxapex can come in and Haze away the boosts at +1, but it becomes more difficult with Earth Power at +2 or higher.

80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 248-294 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 168-198 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
80 SpA Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb vs. +2 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyroak: 126-150 (28.3 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
Pyroak can eventually outtank Slowking-Galar Sludge Bomb, but it does fairly pitiful damage back:
+2 0 SpA Pyroak Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO
 
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Garrett

Banned deucer.
Final Submission - Ronnie Coleman's Inner Fire
+25 Atk
-30 SpA
-10 SpD
+20 Spe
+Jungle Healing
-Rock Head
+Flame Body

  • Jungle Healing facilitates chances to be a Dragon Dance sweeper which fears no crippling status, which would be unique to this mon, giving it an immediate niche to set up on non-Haze Toxapex and many defensive mons that rely on status to stop opposing setup.
  • To give another closely-related option, Pyroak could run a purely defensive set with Flame Body which punishes all of multihitting Melmetal, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, and Weavile, is an excellent stopblock to Kartana spamming moves, and is a consistent check to every annoying defensive Landorus-T (and being able to Jungle Healing off any Toxic is great). Flame Body could absolutely still be used on the Defensive Dragon Dance set, too. Flame Body is an offensive meme on Volcarona and Heatran, so I'd like to see a real defensive utility for once.
The speed buff lets it tie with Dragonite (the competing defensive Dragon Dance sweeper) and allows it to outspeed far more (base 110's, etc. which I think gives enough potency) with a Neutral nature at +1 Speed. It can also creep mons such as Defensive Lando-T more comfortably with this. I think to compensate for some of these buffs, it should be much more scared of faster special attacking sweepers/revenge killers, hence the SpD drop.
 
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Final Submission
+50 Attack
-25 Sp. Atk
+10 Speed
+Head Smash

  • +1 and Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, and EdgeQuake dunks on nearly every tank/wall in the tier, including Toxapex, Zapdos, and Heatran
  • 70 speed allows roak to outpace Clefable, Corviknight, Venomicon, Magnezone, and Scizor
  • +1 speed with a neutral nature outspeeds Blacephalon, Alolan Ninetales, Kartana, and anything slower
  • +1 speed with a jolly nature outspeeds Weavile, Tornadus-T, Syclant, Venomicon-E, Cawmodore, Astrolotl (and anything slower)
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 180-214 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 456-536 (114.2 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pyroak Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 482-570 (114.7 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 392-464 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pyroak Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 374-444 (94.9 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 410-486 (104 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 408-482 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Equilibra: 518-612 (126.9 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cyclohm: 218-258 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Buzzwole: 374-444 (89.4 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pyroak Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 380-450 (110.4 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pyroak Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 418-494 (109.1 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Pyroak Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venomicon: 418-492 (111.7 - 131.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pyroak Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 372-438 (102.7 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Zephyri

put on your headphones and burn my city
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator
WIP

+Sticky Hold
-Battle Armor
+26 SpD
+37 Atk
-30 SpA
+207 kgs
+Stone Edge
+Recover
+Leaf Blade

(new stats: 120/107/105/60/116/60)

Pyroak has pretty fat defenses and kinda cool fairy/steel resistances, so I thought I'd try to play into those aspects of its build instead of the offensive prowess offered by Fire/Grass STABs. Being un-knockable makes it into a sorta cool check to Weavile/Clef/Fini, esp with a reliable 120p steel type move to deal damage with. The SpD boost actually makes you insanely fat on the special side, being 3hkod by Torn-T/Lele, with Stone Edge/Heavy Slam giving you reliable coverage to beat those mons. My buff intends to push Pyroak towards a Zapdos-esque tank mon, except you check/threaten a different set of mons and can set rocks.

Set:

Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Heat Crash
- Recover
- Heavy Slam/Stone Edge/Leaf Blade/Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam/Stone Edge/Leaf Blade/Stealth Rock

0 Atk Pyroak Stone Edge vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Astrolotl: 196-232 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Pyroak Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 182-216 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak: 168-198 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Pyroak in Psychic Terrain: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Pyroak Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (iron head is with heavy slam numbers)
0 Atk Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 204-242 (51.1 - 60.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pyroak: 144-171 (32.4 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Pyroak Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (same as before, iron head is with heavy slam numbers)
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
WIP

+Sleep Powder
+Recover
+Stakeout
+45 Def
-15 Spe
-20 SpA
-Leaf Storm
-White Smoke


This buff is designed to leverage Pyroak's excellent three/two move coverage. Sleep Powder and Stakeout are the focal point of this buff. The idea is to force the opponent into a catch-22 when switching into Pyroak. You either have to eat a potential Sleep Powder or a Stakeout hit. If Pyroak goes for Sleep Powder, then you are once again caught in another catch-22; stay in while sleeping, or eat another Stakeout hit.

Stakeout is an absurdly strong ability held back solely by its awful distribution. This ability is so strong that I knocked 20 points off of Special Attack and remove Leaf Storm in order to temper Pyroak's damage output. Pyroak has a few traits that make it a pretty cool Stakeout user:
1. Very hazard weak -- This makes Life Orb and Choice Specs much tougher the utilize for Pyroak and makes it vulnerable to pivoting and doubles
2. Slow - This buff leaves Pyroak at a miserable 45 base Speed. This caps out with Timid at 207. Against faster threats, Pyroak cannot follow up with another attack, granting faster mons with recovery some counterplay if they eat this hit; examples include Mew and Zapdos.
3. Defensive utility -- Sleep Powder is quite good, but Pyroak needs a little more to do in order to slot onto teams even with Stakeout. This is why the buff includes Recover and +45 Defense. Pyroak has a stoic 120/150 physical bulk with this buff; only Avalugg boasts greater tankiness. Without any investment, Pyroak is looking at 381/336/216 defenses. This is exceptionally good, which I think is necessary for a buff that encourages SpA investment and a typing as defensively flawed as Fire/Grass.

How strong is 70 Attack / 75 Special Attack Stakeout?

252+ SpA Stakeout Pyroak Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 268-316 (70.1 - 82.7%)

That's a lotta damage!! Another example:

252+ SpA Stakeout Pyroak Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 255-301 (64.7 - 76.3%)
252+ SpA Pyroak Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Clefable: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 1.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

2 Fire Blasts is stronger than 2 Overheats. With a little chip, Pyroak can very consistently threaten the mixed defensives Clefable. This makes Pyroak a formidable breaker / physical wall hybrid against slower balanced teams. I went with Sleep Powder over Spore because inconsistency is admittedly a balancing point. You still play as if the Sleep Powder hits, but when it misses it may open up other potential outplay avenues, similar to whenever Magma Storm or Hurricane misses.

This is a very complex buff with a lot of different aspects and takes a weird Pokemon in an even weirder direction. However, I am confident in its effectiveness, despite its quirkiness.
 
WIP

+Pressure
+30 Speed
- White Smoke


I'm late to the party with this one, but I wanted to make a suggestion that preserves Pyroak's potential as a SubSeeder - by trying to replicate SubRoost Kyurem's set. Pyroak has enough base HP to easily hit 101 substitutes, and has access to both Leech Seed and Synthesis to sustain itself. The +30 speed actually brings it in line with Kyurem. Pyroak's fire STAB makes it a more effective user of Leech Seed because Grass types like Ferrothorn or Jumbao need to be cautious about switching in.

Example Set:
Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 92 HP / 164 Def / 252 Speed
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Lava Plume

Will mess with nature/EVs and some stats later as well hopefully but wanted this out there.
 
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quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
Hello, it is my belief that routes primarily focused on Dragon Dance are dangerous (read, more likely to fail).

I'll make the following claims:
1) Bypassing Argh is necessary for any "one and done" sweeper in CAP to reach viability.
2) Having midgame utility is the easiest route to viability for a sweeper in CAP (read priority, speed, or useful resists).

Notes:
  • By "one and done" I mean a dedicated sweeper that isn't leveraging its typing for midgame utility (see Garchomp/Roost Dnite in OU not CAP), and doesn't have strong priority (see Weavile).
  • It is difficult for us to leverage our typing midgame by virtue of Zeraora / Clefable, two mons we'd like to take on, commonly carrying Knock Off, which makes setting up lategame far more difficult.
  • Generally speaking late game sweepers are a bit out of fashion in CAP atm as its very difficult to play 5v6 atm. Note Azumarill, Necturna, Cawmodore being near gone from anything but really HO.
Most of the packages I've seen that focus on a Dragon Dance set can satisfy 1), but fail on 2) as they lack priority, and largely focus on preserving Rock Head. Some examples of these include Pip's, BasedWhat's, and Tommaniacal's. My worry here really is that they don't offer the midgame utiltiy to really get a place on a team; just look at Dragonite which has exemplary stats, a wide movepool, but because it can't guarantee midgame utility (in CAP, it can in OU because it doesn't have to worry about Argh), it sees little CAP usage. There are some packages that manage to sidestep this by including powerful utility moves such as Sleep Powder (DLC's).

----

My feeling is that packages that include powerful midgame utility are the most likely to succeed such as Astra's, which includes STAB Grassy Glide, which instantly gives it a place on some teams as "Rillaboom that checks Koko/Melm and eats Corv". Jewvia's package is very similar to Astra's but focuses on special sets while also giving Calm Mind. I think there is some potential here, but the lack of Grassy Glide does make it meaningfully harder to fit onto teams. Snake Rattler's package is also one I favor as Contrary gives it both an insane offensive threat (broken Overheat), and adds Dragapult as a mon it can potentially check, which instantly gives viability.

Dex's package doesn't necessarily give midgame utility, but Magic Guard freeing up the item slot lets Pyroak leverage its bulk very easily, and is thus likely a successful path. Brambane's Spore/Berserk package likely has a bit of potential behind it, but I do worry about 4MSS, and the lacking explicit power from Berserk. His Stakeout package def fixes this but I'm having difficulty evaluating it due to the mix of buffs given. MrMeat's and Amamama's packages are Chlorophyll centric, and as such my prior concerns are still present. I do not want to play with fire w.r.t. Sun either being unviable or straining the meta. kj's second buff is something I like as Toxic Immune Fire-type is a mon that will always have some potential, and Calm Mind does offer some interesting things. I do worry it might not be quite strong enough, but there's a nice foundation here. Zephyri's package is interesting refocusing Pyroak into a pure tank that can swap into Zeraora forever, but I don't quite know if that's enough to get us to viability as our palette of resists is still a bit threadbare.

I do not have the energy to cover anything.

Summary is: Contrary gives us immediate power and lets us check Pult, Grassy Surge is nice, Sleep Approaches are cool but engender 4MSS, Chloro still worries me.
 
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shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
quick q: what's stopping us from adding chlorophyll on top of another ability? pyroak has 2 useless abilities already and the third one is only useful if we go a route that intentionally wants it to stay
 

dex

Hard as Vince Carter’s knee cartilage is
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a CAP Contributor Alumnus
quick q: what's stopping us from adding chlorophyll on top of another ability? pyroak has 2 useless abilities already and the third one is only useful if we go a route that intentionally wants it to stay
Because Chlorophyll on top of another ability is a distraction from giving Pyroak a defined role and justifying it on teams. Furthermore, introducing another matchup fishy mon like ChloroRoak would be is just not a healthy way to go about this.
 
+Reckless
-Rock Head
+40 Atk
-15 Def
-15 SpA
+20 Spe
+Recover
+Horn Leech


Decided to try something else here and take advantage of the dual 120 BP STAB recoil moves Pyroak has (as well as a bonus in the form of Reckless Wild Charge) to boost them with Reckless, with the recoil being offset by its base 120 HP, though it does incentivize a four attacks breaker set unless you’re real gutsy and use a DD Reckless set. The attack boost is something that it sorely needs, while the defense reduction makes it easier to revenge kill. Special attack reduction is just so its BST isn’t as high. The speed allows it to outrun Heatran as well as Corvi. Recover because it absolutely needs 16 PP recovery and Horn Leech so it doesn’t immediately kill itself with recoil, plus Grass/Fire/Ground is already good offensive coverage
 
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WIP #2

+Natural Cure
-White Smoke
+Slack Off
+15 Special Attack
+20 Speed


This has a similar goal to my previous buff package (preserving Pyroak's current role by making it better against its threats) but more balanced overall rather than just purely offensive. Think of this buff package as Starmie, but instead of removing hazards, it sets them. Natural Cure helps to reduce chip damage by letting Pyroak cure any Toxics it has been inflicted with whenever it switches out. Slack Off also helps to mitigate chip damage, especially in the event that Pyroak has been Knocked Off. SpA and Speed boosts increase Pyroak's offensive presence. +20 in Speed specifically lets Pyroak outspeed Heatran as well as Corviknight. This buff package makes Pyroak faster but a little weaker than my first package to help set them apart.

Potential sample set:

Pyroak @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Slack Off
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power
 
Final Submission

+ 7 HP
+ 35 Atk
- 5 Def
- 25 SpA
- 10 SpD
+ 8 Speed
+ Flash Fire, - White Smoke
+ Flame Body, - Battle Armor
+ Immunity, - Rock Head


  • This set was inspired by Tommanical's submission, in that it eschews flashy, dramatic changes in favor of something lower-key, while trying to address some of the concerns raised in quziel's post, specifically wrt mid-game defensive utility.
  • All 3 of Pyroak's abilities have been replaced with slightly better ones, each aimed at improving its defensive profile in some specific way.
    • Flash Fire gives a fire immunity, helping it switch into mons like :heatran: and :astrolotl:.
      • It's also the single most flavorful ability pyroak could theoretically have, and I'd argue it should be stapled to the end of every buff package for this reason alone.
    • Immunity gives a poison immunity with no extra frills, helping against mons like :landorus-therian:, :heatran:, and :toxapex:.
      • Afaict this poison immunity is ~70% of what Magic Guard is trying to achieve, and ~99% of what Flower Veil is trying to achieve.
      • Note that, by technically replacing Rock Head, Immunity becomes Pyroak's new Hidden Ability.
    • Flame Body punishes U-Turn spammers such as :landorus-therian: and :corviknight:, and also physical attackers in general like :melmetal: and :urshifu-rapid-strike:.
      • I deliberated over whether to remove Rock Head in favor of this. Ultimately, I decided that Pyroak's HP stat is high enough that it doesn't take that much damage from recoil anyway, and the ability to dissuade U-Turn et al would be more valuable overall.
    • Additionally, because none of these abilities telegraph themselves, the possibility of each indirectly buffs the others. Compare how :heatran:can effectively run Flame Body over Flash Fire, as, even if it runs Flame Body, opponents won't use fire moves on it, because of the likelyhood it's running Flash Fire instead.
      • Though Magic Guard is undoubtedly a stronger ability in a vacuum, I'd argue Immunity actually synergizes better because of this. With Magic Guard, if you ever see Pyroak avoid recoil damage or bootsless hazard damage, you know it can be safely hit with fire and contact moves; conversely, if it ever does take damage from those, you know it can be poisoned. With Immunity, a well-played Pyroak could go entire games without revealing what buttons can be safely clicked against it.
  • Stats were reshuffled. The new spread is 127/105/100/70/80/68 (BST 550)
    • Base 105 atk, at +1, OHKOs :corviknight: with Flare Blitz after stealth rocks. Against :toxapex:, with neutral-natured 252 Atk, +1 Earthquake 2HKOs (useful for Dragon Dance variants), as does +2 Eq into +0 Eq (useful for Swords Dance variants).
    • Base 68 speed at +1, with a +Spe nature, outspeeds Jolly :weavile: and Modest :dragapult:, while with a neutral nature it outspeeds base ≤109s. Unboosted, it outspeeds :corviknight:, and has a couple of other funky benchmarks, like potentially outspeeding +1 0 Spe :equilibra:
    • Shifting points from defenses to HP reduces relative damage from recoil, and increases the relative efficacy of defense EV investment. It also keeps Pyroak's BST at 550, which is pointless but aesthetically pleasing. I don't believe the minor drop in overall bulk affects any relevant calcs.
 
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spoo

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We surging boys

Final submission
Grassy Surge > White Smoke
Weight = 300kg
+40 Atk, -30 SpA
+5 Spe
+Slack Off
-Dragon Dance


New stat spread:
120 70 105 95 90 60 (540) -> 120 110 105 65 90 65 (555)

110 Attack:
+2 HHP into +0 HHP always takes out Toxapex from full health with terrain recovery

Weight = 300kg
Heat Crash hits 100BP against Corv, Torn, and Lando, 120BP against Zapdos and Venomicon

65 Speed:
Gets the jump on Venomicon, & 252 Speed outspeeds 0 Speed Landorus-T but Lando can run a small amount of investment to creep. I appreciate the dynamic of beating Lando by default but letting it pick whether or not it wants to make a small sacrifice in bulk in order to outspeed. It also requires Heatran to run significant investment to outspeed, which defensive sets will likely never do (offensive Air Balloon still outruns).

Slack Off:
This is admittedly my bias showing, and is more of a QoL change than anything. Still, it technically enables bulkier SD/utility sets as a possibility, which is sorta cool since none of our current GSurge users have great longevity. It also helps future-proof the mon a tad if its niche ever changes and it starts needing to rely on 50% recovery, aka it does more to make sure we won't need to be buffed again.

Edit: -Dragon Dance:
While I'm skeptical of how likely it is that we'd run DD over SD, I don't believe this buff package needs that flexibility regardless, especially since we outspeed Tornadus-T at +1. SD is more than enough for our needs here.
 
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Guess I'll give some feedback since only quziel really has so far.

My current favorites are snake's, Pipotchi's, and D2's. These are all pretty clean and would definitely ensure Pyroak's viability, though D2 I might consider removing Zap Cannon, I think two very powerful moves that guarantee two different forms of status infliction is a bit much, and I don't think Inferno is that much weaker than Fire Blast to point where it would never be used over it.

I'm extremely confused by Jordy's buff package. I don't see how it'd be able to make use of Guts as a single buff as its bad Attack stat and inability to be burned (Toxic Orb would wear it down too quickly in combination with Stealth Rock weakness) would make it even worse than White Smoke or Battle Armor. I'm assuming there's something I'm missing here, like if you aren't finished adding buffs are planning on adding more later, but I think clarification at least would be helpful.

Regarding Chlorophyll. I think it is worse than Drought because with Chlorophyll Pyroak absolutely depends on the support of its teammates to do anything, whereas with Drought Pyroak doesn't really have to worry about that as much. I think there's a potential risk of individual sun setters falling out of favor in the future, which would harm Chlorophyll Pyroak and I think is too risky, but I think Drought is honestly the opposite and might actually help ensure Sun is viable in the future. Unless Sun/Drought gets directly nerfed or something else really drastic happens in the future I am sure that there will definitely be Pokemon able to take advantage of Sun, even if there aren't Chlorophyll mons in the future, any offensive Fire type would really appreciate getting a boost to its Fire type attacks.

The other thing about Drought that Chlorophyll doesn't have is that, assuming Drought is put alongside the right additional buffs, Pyroak does not actually have to be part of the sun archetype in order to have a place in the metagame, as it is perfectly fine with pulling a Mega Charizard Y, again, assuming it gets the right additional buffs. I think it is essentially a better and safer version of Chlorophyll that isn't as reliant on its teammates.
 
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"""long""" time lurker here (since cap 30), this is my first ever post here. i'll be joining the CAP discord (if i find the link), so if theres any concerns about any of these submissions then just ping me there
:ss/pyroak:
WIP Buff 1
+Wonder Skin
+Solar Power

+10 Defense
+5 Special Attack
+10 Attack
+Jungle Healing
-White Smoke
-Battle Armor


Wonder Skin was picked to try to avoid Toxics, Thunder Waves and Taunts. Neuroforce is here for if you dont wanna pick Wonder Skin, and for offensive sets. it gives some Defensive sets some offensive power, as to make them not completely passive. even though i generally view fire/grass as a more specially defensive typing, i decided to keep it as a physical wall. Jungle Healing is a move i find really neat. its there to basically act as self aromatherapy + healing, so you dont have to run that + synthesis, wich is bad because it takes up too many moveslots. Solar Power was put instead of Neuroforce since i did NOT know that Neuroforce was banned, but it might be cool for offensive special sets and sun offense

:ss/pyroak:
WIP Buff 2
+Poison Heal
+20 Defense
+Slack Off
+Power Gem
+Defog
+Extrasensory
-White Smoke


simple buff now, added some moves +poison heal and more defense. extrasensory for mostly zapdos-g but also for some poison types (cough cough Venomicons). Power Gem for flyings, wich can be annoying for it to hit. Defog lets it get rid of hazards easily, but risks letting Bisharp or Zapdos-G get the Defiant boost. Slack Off gives it some reliable recovery
 
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:ss/pyroak:
WIP Buff 2
+Poison Heal
+20 Defense
+Slack Off
+Power Gem
+Defog
+Extrasensory
-White Smoke


simple buff now, added some moves +poison heal and more defense. extrasensory for mostly zapdos-g but also for some poison types (cough cough Venomicons). Power Gem for flyings, wich can be annoying for it to hit. Defog lets it get rid of hazards easily, but risks letting Bisharp or Zapdos-G get the Defiant boost. Slack Off gives it some reliable recovery
Like with Guts, I think giving a Pokemon that is weak to Rocks an ability that requires a specific item is a bad idea, considering the lack of viability of Snaelstrom. While you gave Pyroak 16 PP Recovery (and it already had 8 PP Recovery) which Snaelstrom does not have, I still think that this is extremely risky and not the best direction to go in.
 
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