Tournament DCL I - Format Discussion

[Slowpoke Fan]

natdex is very non explored and deciding the specific format with natdex is a headache. if we do something like follow smogons official natdex format, thats a format that has never really had a chance on the big stage in draft and i dont think it would make sense for this tournament to be the first place where it gets representation

That sounds reasonable, but will there ever be representation for National Dex draft leagues on Smogon? This argument will forever be applicable if nothing is done to give a stage of any sort to the format in the case that it is rejected for the DCL. I apologise for going off a tangent here, but I believe that this is a real concern with Smogon draft leagues going forward considering the replies in the thread so far.

 

[Feyy]

Firstly, it was not included on the draft league circuit which makes it an outlier for a team tour like this. It ends up making external sources of information necessary to check for the players of value, whereas you can easily check the circuit results here to see a player's performance in the tiers. Not saying this is a deal-breaker, but it is something to consider.

The VGC forums had a draft tour a while ago. While the number of signups isn't as big as the classics tour (128 compared to about 400~), i still believe this is a good and easy to access resource to assess player value. Additionally, as the Doubles draft scene has been growing bigger and bigger, i don't doubt that results from tours like DPL and Derby could be used as resources as well. Definitely harder to get to these resources than just checking circuit results but I don't think these resources are that far out of reach of anybody's hands.

While I think that many VGC players delve into singles at least a bit, there are a significant number of singles players who have never been interested in VGC, at least not enough to seriously build or learn the format. This isolates the slot to one where you cannot get any value out of them outside of their niche, and where your other slots cannot help them out with testing or build ideas.

I think qsns has written a very good post about this point. I've also been in these team environments as a doubles player in a team full of singles slots. In BLT, both my teammates and the Pangoros' team, which i joined after regular season as a support, showed interest in the tier and helped with tossing ideas around and testing ideas. I've also think in draft, the most important aspect is prep and most draft players can prep well for any format as long as they just have the fundamentals of prepping down. I saw this in the most recent team tour that had both singles and VGC draft, PWS, we had 3 mainly VGC player, despite that I think most of my mocks and ideas come from teammates in the singles slots.

Also just adding on to this post with a couple things i've had a thought about and discussed since my initial post
I agree with Hacker that as the other format for old gens, SS makes the most sense as it's the most recent gen. I'm personally also for VGC + SS, although if no VGC, I think SS + SM would be best. ORAS would probably fit best if the slots were 2 SV/ 2 SS/ 2 SM/ 2 ORAS.
I don't think current gen LC is too playable in draft as it is right now and would probably need to be natdex. I've stated what I think about natdex as a format above already. I do hope in the future we will see natdex as a format in circuit next year to set a precedent for the next DCL though.

 

[vengabenga]

In terms of adding extra formats, I'm of the opinion that VGC is the only real candidate that could be added; LC and LT are just very underexplored and don't have enough of a playerbase. ADV also has gotten a very mixed reception from the few times it's been tried.

The problem then, though, is that options for the final slot end up being less than ideal: adding an extra slot to any of the 3 older gens already locked in ends up snubbing the other two, and 4 SV slots is overdoing it.

Thus, there's really only 2 solutions that come to mind for me:

Expanding the amount of slots from 8 to 10: this would mean a 3-2-2-2 lineup for gens 9-6, with the final slot being VGC. I think this pretty elegantly fixes most of the issues with 8 slots, at the cost of adding 2 extra drafts to make.

If no VGC:

8 slots, but the last 2 are managers' choice: 3-1-1-1 would be assumed as an initial 6, and then the managers of both teams pick 1 of SWSH/USUM/ORAS to round out the 8.

 

[Happygate]

I've been thinking long and hard about this for a little while now, and I want to offer up my two cents on the formats. I think my biggest and hottest take is that the 2 formats should be standard SV (tera preview). The newest format, in my opinion is always the most important because it allows for new, break-out talent to shine. It's also the easiest format to get into and the meta is always changing especially compared to later gens, which I'm sure most of you have joked about them being "solved." As I'll argue later, I think we should add older gens instead, but adding two more SV's is probably the best option imo because we only have so much time with SV as the current gen format, and everyone will be hungry to prove their salt in the current metagame, even if they do play the older ones.

If I had to give my own take of what I would want the two formats should be, it should be 1 ORAS 1 SWSH. ORAS, especially ORAS Draft, in my opinion is draft at the highest level. Everything about that metagame is conducive to a good time. Games are always a good length; team structure is perfect is open-ended, with a lot of balance thriving but room for stall and hyper-offense to thrive; and ORAS feels like pure skill is always rewarded in the tier, something I can't say about say tera in SV or even like Z moves in USUM (though that may be a bad take of mine). ORAS is just a sugar rush for me, and even though it's decently solved, it doesn't matter because every match is fun. As for SWSH, I think it's the most beginner friendly draft. Players aren't punished like they are by say hazards in previous gens (with the addition of HDB). They also don't need to worry about Z moves and megas. On top of that, the pokemon in this meta are easy to understand. Zeraora, Tapu Koko, and Spectrier offer unmatched speed tiers that balance out teams nicely; Melmetal, Buzzwole, and Zapdos provide a lot of new dimension by being bulky breakers; Torn, Glowking, and Rillaboom provide clear, valuable support options while being versatile enough to change up sets between say pure support or set-up sweepers. Personally, I feel comfortable enough to give a player of any skill level a brief rundown of SWSH and pokemon and how it works and I think they would have a fun time, and that's something I value in a metagame.

If there's some metagames I wouldn't mind seeing, but don't necessarily want, it's ADV and LT/LC. Adding in a LT/LC option would round out the year nicely, with them both being C-tier tournaments, but I can't say I like watching or playing the metagame myself. As for ADV, ADV is hype as all else, but it's skillset is just so far off from what the other gens bring to the table that I don't want it. But if you've never seen Emerald Open or an ADV draft before, it's super cool and really fun to watch. (Shout-out to Jeroni, my goat.)

The metagames I really just don't want to see is VGC/DOU. I don't want to dog on these formats, they are very valuable and offer a cool, new perspective on the game and how to play, it's just not one I care about. Don't really have anything else to say here without being too mean. (I actually think I was already pretty mean to it as is).

The other metagames not mentioned, I have no opinion towards, if they're added, I'll likely skip watching the replays, unless I want to watch a player in it. And yeah, that's my opinion. I don't know, not really too sure how to end this off. Best of luck organizers trying to get any cohesive ideas out of this, good luck to all future captains and players. I'm really looking forward to this team tour, it's probably going to be a must watch event for me this year, and I want it to be a good one. Just really excited, draft is in a good place right now and we're in good hands here. <3 <3

 

[Toxinalpaca]

I agree with Vengabenga on expanding the starting slots to 10.

Honestly the draft community is very big and diverse, having 10 slots allows more of the community to participate in the team tour. And just as Venga explained it’ll make everyone happy about the oldgens AND VGC

 

[iPetBigfoot]

VGC would be cool.

 

[Perplexer]

I will also add, that if the issue of adding VGC is that it will be "too isolated"

You could fix this by adding both VGC and DOU draft (or an old VGC gen) to increase the slots / impact of having doubles players on a team, over simply one slot that people could just sack, and encourage teams to draft 2-3 doubles players, creating a lot more of a discussion within teams around the formats.

(But also I'm super bias so maybe ignore me)

edit: this is what PWS does w/ 2 vgc slots, and it seems to be well received

 

[Tjb145]

For me personally, I would lean towards allowing for captains to choose a tier each week out of SWSH, USUM, and ORAS to round out the games in the series (both sides cannot pick the same tier) . This system is tried and tested in other draft league team tours and ultimately avoids the inevitable debate of which one of these tiers should have less games as everyone would have different reasonings for their own personal choices.

I am open to the idea of the introduction of new formats, with the major standout candidate being VGC. My slight concern with going with VGC would be what it is subsequently paired with. The above system would not suffice as only one team would get to select a tier, granting them a major advantage that cannot be evened out across the season in a fair manner. Low-Tier and Little Cup can work, but choosing which one has preference over the other is also complicated. Older gen formats are the other option, but a large plethora of them are under-explored in the Draft League format and can lead to tiering complications or in the case of ADV is currently not in a healthy metagame state. National Dex...... is a can of worms I would personally not want to see opened due to rule complications and a major lack of exploration into the metagame compared to Paldea or Galar Dex respectively.

 

[DrMario64]

natdex is very non explored and deciding the specific format with natdex is a headache. if we do something like follow smogons official natdex format, thats a format that has never really had a chance on the big stage in draft and i dont think it would make sense for this tournament to be the first place where it gets representation

lc is the same sentiment above, since if we do lc it would have to be natdex, tho it is more popular but i dont think there is a good format that stays consistent with natdex's identity on this website

Nat dex is like, the perfect format for draft. Gimmicks aside, it allows the use of all the moves and mons not in the current games so I'm not even gonna argue for all of megas, tera, and z. It's not even some completely new format either it just has all of the elements from the OU formats that were apparently so good they got auto-locked in as part of the format pool. I just can't imagine where the headache part is since picking gen 9 natdex with both z moves and tera completely banned is probably one of the best possible draft formats.

The other reasons against it you brought up just don't really make sense. It hasn't had a chance on the big stage? Isn't that the point of asking us what we want the last couple formats to be? Plus I've seen a lot of people wanting more modern gen slots in the comments and natdex is perfect for that. The sheer amount of tools and mons at people's disposal beyond just being dumb gimmicks makes for a much more entertaining format both to play and to watch in my opinion. This tournament seems like the perfect place for it to get representation specifically because of how many more tools we get access to and thus how many more strategies arise compared to a normal OU format.

 

[Meowscarada!]

I know the question was aimed at someone else, but as someone in agreement with the poster

National dex really is not something you want to touch on. Simple reason being, there is no way to create an equal playing field for old and new pokemon.

1) More being available does not equal more viable options per se, reduced scald distribution made more mons able to switch in, literally all physical water resists. Reduced knock off makes more eviolite users viable as well as other pokemon depending on items. On top, reduced distribution makes the ones that do get the move more valuable.
2) as examples Hidden power and toxic used to be moves on every pokemon.
Gen 8 and 9 pokemon miss out on those, and are at an immediate disadvantage.
Do you just ban those when not learned by level up?
I would say obviously, yes. But that would cause a debate certainly.
3) interaction of old pokemon with new mechanics. We all remember stuff like shedinja and liepard. The normal ladder already has shown the format does not work.
The format is based on assumptions, who knows certain new moves would fail with say assist?
People may say just ban stuff that is broken, the format is bound to have other problems

Even if you answer all 3, there is controversy whatever you decide.

 

[DrMario64]

National dex really is not something you want to touch on. Simple reason being, there is no way to create an equal playing field for old and new pokemon.

1) More being available does not equal more viable options per se, reduced scald distribution made more mons able to switch in, literally all physical water resists. Reduced knock off makes more eviolite users viable as well as other pokemon depending on items. On top, reduced distribution makes the ones that do get the move more valuable.
2) as examples Hidden power and toxic used to be moves on every pokemon.
Gen 8 and 9 pokemon miss out on those, and are at an immediate disadvantage.
Do you just ban those when not learned by level up?
I would say obviously, yes. But that would cause a debate certainly.
3) interaction of old pokemon with new mechanics. We all remember stuff like shedinja and liepard. The normal ladder already has shown the format does not work.
The format is based on assumptions, who knows certain new moves would fail with say assist?
People may say just ban stuff that is broken, the format is bound to have other problems

There is no need to create an equal playing field for old and new mons that just happens in every format. 18 pointers will be stronger than 5 pointers that's just how it is. In reality it's up to the player to form a cohesive team that works well together rather than wanting 8 or so mons that are good on their own just because they have more moves.

Your first point goes both ways. More distribution of a centralizing move makes as many things viable than less distribution of a centralizing move, but to the first thing you said, a higher distribution of that move acutally DOES equalize the playing field more because more mons get access to said moves like knock off, scald, hazards, defog, etc. Teams being able to have access to budget mons with these tools is much healthier than raising the price of the handful of mons that happened to keep them just because they are the only ones that have access to those moves

New mons are not hurting over not getting hidden power. Nowadays, every new mon has some sort of niche whether it's a sig move or ability. Old mons getting hidden power and pursuit do not automatically have an advantage over these new mons that have had such an effect on raising the overall power level. If that were the case, it just gets reflected in the tier list. Plus hidden power is cringe in draft anyways so I doubt people are going to lose sleep if it were banned.

 

[Hacker]

Nat dex is like, the perfect format for draft. Gimmicks aside, it allows the use of all the moves and mons not in the current games so I'm not even gonna argue for all of megas, tera, and z. It's not even some completely new format either it just has all of the elements from the OU formats that were apparently so good they got auto-locked in as part of the format pool. I just can't imagine where the headache part is since picking gen 9 natdex with both z moves and tera completely banned is probably one of the best possible draft formats.

In any league I have participated in or spectated, I have not seen a single league follow the NatDex format played here on Smogon this gen. This would be the first time its played so i think including it in the inaugural tournament would be a mistake when we have options to include established formats and NatDex for draft just isnt really established

The other reasons against it you brought up just don't really make sense. It hasn't had a chance on the big stage? Isn't that the point of asking us what we want the last couple formats to be?

This would be its first chance on the big stage, yes. However, I think it should be established elsewhere first. Whether that be including it in our circuit for next year or whatever else we could do to include it. Right now the format is just very under explored and it isnt established at all like the oldgens are. Whenever the format gets standardized, has a player base, etc then I think it could definently have a place in this tournament but right now I just don't think it does

 

[Toxinalpaca]

[

For me personally, I would lean towards allowing for captains to choose a tier each week out of SWSH. USUM and ORAS to round out the games in the series (both sides cannot pick the same tier) . This system is tried and tested in other draft league team tours and ultimately avoids the inevitable debate of which one of these tiers should have less games as everyone would have different reasonings for their own personal choices.

I am open to the idea of the introduction of new formats, with the major standout candidate being VGC. My slight concern with going with VGC would be what it is subsequently paired with. The above system would not suffice as only one team would get to select a tier, granting them a major advantage that cannot be evened out across the season in a fair manner. Low-Tier and Little Cup can work, but choosing which one has preference over the other is also complicated. Older gen formats are the other option, but a large plethora of them are under-explored in the Draft League format and can lead to tiering complications or in the case of ADV is currently not in a healthy metagame state. National Dex...... is a can of worms I would personally not want to see opened due to rule complications and a major lack of exploration into the metagame compared to Paldea or Galar Dex respectively.

I understand that vgc does start an issue on what to pair with it, but I think it brings so much new people into the draft equation that I think it’s a necessity. For this reason I want to propose the idea of 2 vgc or 1 vgc 1 Dou, Something that people such as Qsns and Perplexer have said before. I’ve witnessed first hand how many people are hyped and skilled in the vgc community, meeting lots of fun new people over this year. We’ve seen 2 vgc slots work before with singles such as in PWS S3. This way everyone doesn’t worry about which Oldgen gets less games while satisfying the rapidly growing vgc/dou community and leading to community growth

 

[GeniusX]

Strongly against adding 2 unique niche formats as the remaining 2 slots due to the nature of draft team tours. While I do recognize the growth of formats such as VGC Natdex and LC I think they are better suited to have individual tours to promote their player base than inclusion in the team tour.

By adding 2 unique formats managers are essentially forced to draft specific players to play and prep those tiers. Managers alrdy do this for standard tiers but there’s much more overlap between tiers such as sm and Oras than sm and vgc. This creates a situation where the individual drafted is isolated to that specific tier where they are the only one that understands said tier at a high level in the team as it’s unreasonable for managers to draft multiple players for 1 niche slot alone.

One of the best things about draft compared to other team tours is the prep that comes from hours of discussion and mocks. Some of the most innovative and unique prep I’ve seen have come from team tour settings in the past. The inclusion of 2 unique tiers most likely will stray away from this unique aspect of draft team tours and become smth more similar to other smogon tours where players only focus on their own matchups mainly. I’m not necessarily saying that the remaining players on the team won’t help or mock these niche tiers, just that the help they can offer is minimal due to their lack of understanding with the tier. This means the prep aspect is mostly handled by 1 player alone for these niche tiers, essentially taking away from the magic that is draft team tours.

Now by adding 2 niche tiers we multiply this issue by twofold, where 2/X players on a team are now isolated and have no one else to discuss prep for their format at a high level within their team.

There are also logistical issues such as not having a viable sub if a specific player of a niche format can’t play in a given week but these issues are secondary to the one I stated above.

If overwhelming support for a specific format still exists it would be better for the 2 formats to be the same format than 2 unique ones. This would at least help foster some form of high level discussion between 2 team members at least.

But I’m still strongly in support of just having 2 of the standard tiers (Sv,ss,sm,oras) instead.

 

[SparksBlade]

VGC seems to have a decent amount of support and playerbase. Sure it might be a bit isolated (if VGC + Doubles isn't chosen) but I don't think it's that big a deal + if you have a starter you just need support from your team which doesn't have to be specialised VGC support. Just don't mute the VGC channel and help your teammate out.

Low Tiers is cool - current gen but slightly different and I like having more CG stuff unless a tour is designed to not be so. There is a concern of updating the drafting board once the DLC drops so I cannot comment on that aspect, but if people who'll do it are fine with it then I think it's a good addition.

LC I don't like cos there aren't enough mons imo, so the board will have to be very strict to allow for 8 viable-ish drafts. I think this is somewhat of an added pressure on top of already updating the board in a short timespan. Overall I don't like adding LC.

Doubles 6v6 from what I've seen is slightly less popular than VGC, so if we only have one it should be VGC, and I think having both is not the best combination for final two slots.

Old gens - I see the appeal of just adding more SS/USUM/ORAS slots but personally I would prefer more variety. I've been told BW as a draft format is very undeveloped and not suitable as an option. ADV seems to be the most popular old gen (even in this thread) I'd be very interested to see that added as a slot.

Natdex and "chance on big stage"

People arguing that Natdex as a format is still very underdeveloped and not ready for tour make sense. People who say "oh but if it's not in the tour cos it's never been tried, then how will it ever get a chance?!?!?" should just realise - do individual tours. Team tour slots should not be volatile unexplored areas when avoidable. If you want a tour to gain recognition and be considered for teamtours or officials, then start by doing smaller tours for them and gathering attention.

Case study: Ubers Premier League is running its 11th edition right now. GSC was only added two years ago, and after running half a dozen individual tournaments at the least. These tournaments are important for attracting the mainers and introducing the non-mainers at the same time. You gauge community interest from these tours and when from multiple tours you get a consistent feedback, then you try to add them to bigger platforms. You can always run unofficial tournaments - they don't have to be part of the circuit. That's what I do whenever I want to try some format or tier! I just make an unofficial tour!

So if you'd like for Natdex to gain more recognition you'll have to work for it. If you can't be bothered to work for it then that's the end of the talk

VGC, Lower Tier, and ADV are the ones I'd like to be considered for the final two slots, but there are slight concerns that should be kept in mind:

• VGC - currently Regulation D but might change before/mid-tour, in which case the draft board will need to be updated. Also this might require slightly more specialised mainers than all other slots, but I don't think it's that big an issue if managers put in some effort.
• Lower Tier - requires a board update when DLC drops
• ADV - an old gen and we're skipping DPP and BW might seem odd, but it's a safe pick that'll not require any additional work or headache

 

[Reuben_Thomas05]

SV NFE Draft pls

 

[Psycho782]

yes.

(Jokes aside)A natdex draft where u have limited number of tiers like 1ou 2uu 2ru 2pu and stuff like this

 

[100percentpureheat]

draft randbats

 

[MonkeBoi215]

LC and LT together is a bad idea cuz there’s literally another team tour running at the same time doing this. LC is a scuffed format too.
Any of the non preview gens and VGC are also bad ideas because they suck!!! So either we add more of the already decided formats(kinda lame) or add natdex since it’s different enough from the other formats(unlike low tier) without being as bad as the other options.

probably just do 2 of each format tho(natdex and low tier the only realistic alternatives but even those aren’t the best)

 

[young p bands]

no adv=good tour

no lc= good tour


Yw

Disagree

 

[Lindwurm]

vgc bad

little cup good!!!!

 

[100percentpureheat]

if ss is included lets do natdex (no z moves no tera no pursuit no hp), its not often this format gets included, its balanced, and its much more fun than galar dex which we've all played a thousand times at this point

 

[Nyx]

Thanks to everyone who gave their thoughts, I'll be going ahead and closing this thread for now, we'll be announcing the finalised formats in the manager signup post coming out soon™️.