Metagame Convergence [DLC 2 Bans]

[Kingofthesun]

To answer this, OM's current tiering policy dictates that Pokémon bans are prioritized over move and ability bans in the case when only a sole donor is present for the element. This is why Lilligant was axed and not Victory Dance.

As for Populatiom Bomb, in that case it would require us to ban both Maushokd and Tandemaus, which at that point voids the distinction, so we just ax the problematic move.

It may not be pleasing to you, but that is how it is, and we will be following OM Tiering Policy.

I would like to preface that I am not complaining about the bans, I just came to a realization as a consequence of this conversation and would like to share it.

The universal rule of the OM is the following: " Pokémon gain access to the abilities and Movepools of all Pokémon that share their typing." which, technically isn't true. Rather "All pokemon of a shared typing have access to a specific pool of moves and abilities". This second definition comes from the idea that the OM being played is it's own game in a vacuum based on this AAA post. The first one is necessary as an explanation relative to the existing series of Pokemon we all know, so we can understand the OM and how it works, and it's a very good one at doing exactly that.

The way the OM works mechanically, is if you are of type A then you have access to moves B and Abilities C. Any Normal type gets access to Population Bomb, period. Even if Maushold was the only Pokemon that got Population Bomb, banning Population Bomb and a random Normal type with objectively worse offensive stats than the main abusers would be against tiering policy; The former is broken, and is therefore banned, but the latter is an extremely arbitrary ban. While Lilligant-Hisui was clearly banned due to having "donated" Victory Dance as mentioned in the original banning post of Lilligant-Hisui. Same principle applies to abilities which, at the time of posting this, Komala is legal, but Comatose is banned, which, in conjunction with the Lilligant-Hisui ban, is inconsistant against the current standard of banning "donators".

Again, not hating on the bans, I just noticed in inconsistency in tiering policy, which I know Smogon takes VERY seriously and wanted to throw in my 2 cents. The OM could just be determined by "donators" but, that is very inconsistent with how other OMs handle their tiering policies. (AAA revoking ditto's ability to use imposter, most notably).

TL:DR banning pokemon based on moves/abilities that they donate is arbitrary relative to the mechanics of the OM.

 

[KittenLasers]

I would like to contest the Converge clause. I have greatly disagreed with the addition of such a clause since it's inception but have never gotten around to expressing my disagreement as I didn't know whether my concerns would be taken under consideration, but the recent tiering actions I feel are so bizarre that I intend of vocalizing my disagreements with it now.

Let's say we're in OU at a time where Espathra was still running around and proved itself to be unmanageable and requiring action. Why ban Espathra itself over banning other obvious aspects that are making Espathra unmanageable, like Speed Boost or Stored Power for example? I'm not saying banning SB or SP on just Espathra, which would be a complex ban, but just banning one of SB or SP entirely, on any pokemon, which would be bans that are simple in their logic. Quite obviously because SB or SP aren't broken on every other pokemon they're on - you would be removing valid options from the game that are not problematic, like the option of running Speed Boost on Yanmega or Stored Power on Cresselia etc.

The Converge clause makes it impossible to ban a particular pokemon as an abuser without removing all the moves/abilities they contribute to their respective convergence pools, even if said moves/abilities pose absolutely no issue themselves. I believe that because of this that the Converge clause goes against what I believe is one of smogon's most chief tiering principles in minimizing the amount of options that are removed from the game.

My suggestion is that the Converge clause is repealed and instead distinctions between abuser bans and full bans are made. For example, Magearna and Urshifu-RS should only be banned as abusers, meaning they themselves cannot be used but their moves/abilities still contribute to their pools, meaning pokemon like Tinkaton and Quaquaval can still use Shift Gear and Surging Strikes respectively. A pokemon should only be fully banned if they prove themselves to be broken in multiple aspects, like for example Arceus or Koraidon. Not only are both Arceus and Koraidon too strong themselves, but they both donate broken things to their respective pools. For Arceus, it gives a phenomenal movepool that would likely push many monotypes to the point of being broken, while Koraidon would give Kommo-O Orichalcum Pulse, which I personally cannot see being manageable.

I believe that doing this would simplify how bans are handled as it would allow for you to ban abusers specifically instead of forcing collateral in moves/abilities being made unable for other non-broken mons that would've previously made use of them.

 

[xTimeCrystal]

PLEASE can we reorder the ban list in alphabetical order so i can read it properly

 

[Katz89]

I have played over 100 games this convergence cycle and can I just say I am so thankful Chimeco exists exactly now

Fortune Teller (Cresselia) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Nuzzle
- Haze

I have played stall and almost exclusively stall and while Fortune Teller the Cresselia has been one of the weaker ends of it, the fact it has heal bell is just my friend. The only users are mono Normal and mono Psychic types from Chansey and Chimeco respectively, but with Magic Bounce and Nuzzle from Hattrem it is a really cool cleric mon. I have seen Lumina Crash and Calm Mind sets work out well too, but Calm Mind sacrifices defensive utility and Lumina Crash is easy to play around with good switching so I will always respect the Cres.
I might swap out haze since I already have a prankster haze mon for "break in case of set up sweepers" but like with Heal Bell Wish and Nuzzle you kinda just have a free 4th move for whatever and a really good support mon. Unlike Psychic/Fairy mons it doesn't have Teleport which is a big issue, but the upside of heal bell is more than worth it imo. If a psychic/fairy heal bell user or a pure psychic teleport user(Beheeyem anyone?) in the second DLC would change this balance though. Idk I just like games that go for 250 turns as I slowly win a won game while trying to not run out of PP.

 

[Katz89]

I do just want to bring up how annoying Fighting/Poison and Water/Dark are with the signature moves of their hisuan forms. Water/Dark doesn't have the most insane users imo, but it does stray into the territory of just getting a win button a la sharpness ceaseless edge, and it makes Greninja even more dangerous since you have to prepare for either a hard hitting special/specs set or a hazard spamming and hard hitting ceaseless edge sharpness spammer. Poison/Fighting is generally fine if you have counterplay, at least from my experience as the 1 stall enjoyer, but Dire Claw is so freaking annoying since against anything that isn't a steel type you have to play the 50% game of getting statused and while poison is fine to eat and doesn't affect poison types that's still a 33% chance of just getting screwed. Couple that with the fact they have set up in swords dance and bulk up, unburden sets with air balloon or normal gem fake out, and fighting stab for steel types, they are so freaking annoying even if they aren't the worst thing ever.
If I had to propose any action it would possibly be banning Ceaseless Edge just for being a dumb spam move with not many great counters besides Umbreon, I'll probably have to try them out first though, and almost definitely banning Dire Claw and possibly Sneasler as a whole not for being broken exactly but just creating toxic playstyles where you aren't playing around what can wall an unburden swords dance sweeper but you're playing around what can counter a sweeper AND take a random status whenever the (usually Okidogi) feels like.
Also in an unrelated case Landorus Therian with Toxic Heal is maybe not as great as I've seen but is just annoying since it takes one free switch and can start setting up free sweeps. Not that big of a threat though given it's pretty frail, just an annoying guy I put up with for max max ultra-defense Intimidate Gligar. Also very biased since Toxic Heal is my friend when I use it to stall.

 

[Mywookiearmy]

I do just want to bring up how annoying Fighting/Poison and Water/Dark are with the signature moves of their hisuan forms. Water/Dark doesn't have the most insane users imo, but it does stray into the territory of just getting a win button a la sharpness ceaseless edge, and it makes Greninja even more dangerous since you have to prepare for either a hard hitting special/specs set or a hazard spamming and hard hitting ceaseless edge sharpness spammer. Poison/Fighting is generally fine if you have counterplay, at least from my experience as the 1 stall enjoyer, but Dire Claw is so freaking annoying since against anything that isn't a steel type you have to play the 50% game of getting statused and while poison is fine to eat and doesn't affect poison types that's still a 33% chance of just getting screwed. Couple that with the fact they have set up in swords dance and bulk up, unburden sets with air balloon or normal gem fake out, and fighting stab for steel types, they are so freaking annoying even if they aren't the worst thing ever.
If I had to propose any action it would possibly be banning Ceaseless Edge just for being a dumb spam move with not many great counters besides Umbreon, I'll probably have to try them out first though, and almost definitely banning Dire Claw and possibly Sneasler as a whole not for being broken exactly but just creating toxic playstyles where you aren't playing around what can wall an unburden swords dance sweeper but you're playing around what can counter a sweeper AND take a random status whenever the (usually Okidogi) feels like.
Also in an unrelated case Landorus Therian with Toxic Heal is maybe not as great as I've seen but is just annoying since it takes one free switch and can start setting up free sweeps. Not that big of a threat though given it's pretty frail, just an annoying guy I put up with for max max ultra-defense Intimidate Gligar. Also very biased since Toxic Heal is my friend when I use it to stall.

Been playing a LOT of Conv this month as well (AYOO ANOTHER STALL PLAYER! :D) and wanted to give my thoughts and respond! 100% agree on the Fighting/Poisons being a nightmare because of the game design wonder that is Dire Claw (move should be restricted imo, I think Sneasler is fine), but I heavily disagree that CEdge doesn't have 'the most insane users'. You touched on it with Gren, but I think that's cutting it a little too much slack. This thing is a nightmare, since it outspeeds basically every relevant mon in the tier, is a coin toss on whether it will be a Specs breaker, Banded/Scarfed fast hazard stacker/flipper, Black Glasses/Any item tbh hazard stacking menace, or the most egregious in Nasty Plot sweeper. There is genuinely not many options to beat the Plot set after it gets a boost outside of maybe Blissey, and niche priority users/scarf because of how fast it is, and with Adaptability you are forced into 50/50s with Dark Pulse where if you flinch you lose the game. And remember, with just how many different sets Gren can run, you ALSO have to make that coin flip before it even uses a move! Definitely should've been suspected/banned, as it alongside Dire Claw I found really unhealthy for the metagame. Regarding Lando I feel it's fine for the most part, not particuarily bulky enough to perma stay in with PHeal and eaten alive by the regenwaters/Umbreon, but can be annoying if you don't prepare for it.

Quick edit because I forgor: I've been teching in Psychic on my Regen waters (so Vap and Milo). It one shots the Fighting/Poisons that expect to wall you with Dry Skin and it is REALLY funny to humble them ;)

 

[Mywookiearmy]

Shout outs to some other fun and strong mons, starting with Iron Moth, it unfortunately is slower than the Sneeze, Bugs Bunny and Gren (and it doesn't appreciate the regens of the tier) but it is pretty scary if it is allowed to setup a plot. Scream Tail as well, a REALLY bad option for stall (don't use it), but it is an insane boon for the offensive teams that need a bulky support/pivot. Haxorus as well was a fun thing to goof around with this gen, 2 shotting Umbreon with your DMaw Banded Outrages while having First Impression for priority. Scizor is another really annoying mon, absolutely dismantles stall since it can coin flip against the unaware fires with rock blast and one shot outright if it gets 5 hits. Ogerpon and Shaymin are fun ones, Shaymin being able to run Contary Leaf Storm or Boomburst Throat Spray, whereas Ogerpon can do Contary Superpower or become Rillaboom 2.0. Lastly I want to shoutout Garganacl, a mon I've loved using with a SpD AV set to sit on tons of special threats, like Zapdos, the Fire/Ghosts, and destroying Scream Tail, as well as being able to spin.

Been a fun month and a fun OM guys, loved the discussions and I hope to see it on ladder again this gen! :)

 

[Gambit_Gamin]

With the Indigo Disk DLC 2 coming out soon, I have decided to post an interesting mon below:

Primarina @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
Primarina has 74 base attack so with 252 Attack EVs and an Adamant Nature + Huge Power, your final attack stat is 542. Use Belly Drum and you get 2168 attack :)

 

[Parascuffed]

With the new DLC having dropped a little while ago, I figured I'd outline some of the most intersting mons in the unpatched meta. Will start with the most broken and work my way down.


Probably the most broken mon in the DLC, and for pretty obvious reasons. Swapping out Slow Start in favor of damage amp abilities like Guts or even defensive options like Terashell makes it an obscene Wall Breaker and Sweeper. +2 Max Attack Guts CC does about 82 minimum to a Max Defense Fluffy Umbreon, and Facade + Knock handles any remaining defensive walls. Factoring in Regi's very respectable bulk and solid speed tier, it has the potential to come in multiple times in one game and threaten a sweep or at least a kill. To make matters even worse, it has a near-limitless movepool thanks to another new DLC addition...


Another very silly Pokemon. Smeargle being legal means mono-normals gain access to nearly every existing move in the game. Notable additions to mono-normal movepools include Sticky Web, Ceaseless Edge, Victory Dance, Wicked Blow, and Salt Cure. Smeargle's presence opens up a pandora's box of options for normals, with one of its best applications coming in the form of leads. Ambipom can leverage tools like Sticky Web, Explosion, and Skill-Swap to bypass the typical means of hazard control and maintain momentum for HO teams better than almost any other lead in the meta. Other recipients like Regigigas can abuse absurd tools like Victory Dance to enable sweeps against weakened teams, showing the arrival of Smeargle to be a huge boon for HO.


Deoxys-Speed is another mon with a lot of options, with the most intriguing sets being Magic Guard LO and Magic Bounce Lead. This isn't an issue in a vacuum, though, as every other Psychic type also has these options. The problem with Deoxys-Speed is, well, its speed. It outspeeds every regular mon in the tier, with its speed tier even eclipsing Scarfers under Base 104. This makes the mon a rather potent revenge killer and offensive hazard setter that can potentially shred through unprepared teams. That being said, its presence may prove manageable in a meta with as much priority and general diversity as Convergence.


The arrival of the DLC allows Hoopa-Unbound to answer an age-old question: What if Malamar was good? Hoopa-Unbound does basically everything Contrary Malamar tries to do, but with the stats to back it up. Superpower and Hyperspace Fury allow Hoopa to abuse Contrary, potentially snowballing out of control against fatter teams or Webs builds. Its bad defensive typing, lackluster speed, and lack of recovery make me wonder if it'll actually be all that broken, but only time will tell.

These are just some of the mons that stood out to me as strong options in the new DLC. I haven't been able to play too many matches yet, so time will tell what's truly ban-worthy. I'd love to hear if anyone else has found some strong DLC mons that I haven't mentioned!

 

[Gambit_Gamin]

Probably the most broken mon in the DLC, and for pretty obvious reasons. Swapping out Slow Start in favor of damage amp abilities like Guts or even defensive options like Terashell makes it an obscene Wall Breaker and Sweeper. +2 Max Attack Guts CC does about 82 minimum to a Max Defense Fluffy Umbreon, and Facade + Knock handles any remaining defensive walls. Factoring in Regi's very respectable bulk and solid speed tier, it has the potential to come in multiple times in one game and threaten a sweep or at least a kill. To make matters even worse, it has a near-limitless movepool thanks to another new DLC addition...

To add on to Regigigas, you could also do defensive movesets with moves like Toxic, Recover, Knock, Rapid Spin, Leech Seed, Salt Cure, Heal Bell (etc) with ability being either Intimidate or Natural Cure as well as hazard stack movesets with Ceaseless Edge, Stone Axe, T-Spikes, and Sticky Webs. I expect this mon to be banned within the coming days as well as Smeargle so I don't think this will end up being a long-term problem.

 

[G-Luke]

Just to hammer out the tell tale examples, the following returning Pokémon have been banned from Convergence



Contrary will also be banned, as a multitude of new abusers have debuted that push the ability over the edge.

Kris heads up, thanks in advance

 

[Gambit_Gamin]

I'm here, and I got some cool mons.

@ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Moonlight
- Taunt
394 HP and 700 Defense. That's pretty absurd. Here's a some calc.
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Umbreon: 134-158 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Let's also not forget that this mon has access to Toxic and Moonlight and now thanks to Zoroark, gets Knock Off.

@ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Barb Barrage
- Knock Off
- Flip Turn
- Rapid Spin
Thanks to the DLC bringing back Tentacruel, Toxapex now has access to Knock Off and Rapid Spin, which makes Toxapex an incredible hazard remover. Also, max special defense Assault Vest gives Toxapex a total of 631 Special Defense which is insane when combined with Flip Turn Regenerator. Here's another calc:
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

@ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
Fast and absurdly powerful? This mon is gonna be crazy strong.
252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
You could also go Life Orb Nasty Plot as well.
252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Toxapex: 153-182 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO