Tournament CAPCL II - Policy Discussion

[SHSP]

Happy start of Scarlet and Violet, everyone! With the coming of both a new gen and the winter season, the CAP metagame mods want to open up discussion on the latest addition of CAP Champions League! This year's will be hosted by myself and Wulfanator, and we want to cover a few things while we have a little bit of time.

Slot Number- The last CAPCL was a six slot tournament, but we upped the slot number to 8 in our latest CAPPL. Which should be preferable here? Keep in mind the generally accepted differences between CAPCL (a tournament designed to be more experimental) and CAPPL (the premier tournament with an intended wider reach). This of course ties in nicely to the next topic of discussion;

What Tiers?- CAPCL has been discussed as a more experimental team tour, leading to a lot of debate in our past editions about what tiers should make the cut for it and which should be left out. This season will have an additional wrinkle, as the mod team fully intends for this to be a tournament including SV CAP. With that in mind, how should the slots be divvied up between tiers? Additionally, should we entertain any sort of Bo3 slot as we have done in the past?

Some more specific tiers we'd like discussion on are as follows, with some elaboration:

SV CAP
SS CAP
SM CAP
ORAS CAP
BW CAP
DPP CAP
CAP Monotype
BDSP CAP


SV CAP- How many slots? It is our new current gen, but it will be incredibly young as a tier.
Old Gens- SS and SM are our best developed old gens that are coming off of lots of tournament appearances in Gen 8 proper. ORAS is in a weird position where it's well established compared to some of the older gens, but young compared to SS and SV. BW had an appearance in last CAPCL and seems like a good fit for this tour. DPP is one of the most divisive old gens that has had much more growth compared to where it was in the leadup to last CAPCL.
Other Tiers- Monotype was a strong fit in the last CAPCL, and had some fringe discussion for CAPPL. BDSP was in discussion for CAPPL but was decided against for it's status as a newer, unproven tier, a bad fit for CAPPL but perhaps not for CAPCL? Are there any tiers or other metas that are worth considering?

Management Pricing- this is a question we have every pre-season. How should we handle manager pricings this season?

We're looking at a very tentative mid-January start date for this, but with the start of the new gen stuff like movepool updates to come that is subject to change. We'll keep everyone in the loop on that info as it comes- for now let's take some time and hash this stuff out!

 

[pannu]

I'm not gonna make a lengthy post but I would like to see little to none ss cap this tour as I think the meta needs a break, let the new SV and lesser played old gens shine. 6 slots seems optimal cuz this tour is bound to be smaller than PL was.

Sv
Sv
Sm
Oras
Bw
Dpp

IMO the optimal lineup

 

[quziel]

The more I think about it the more I think we benefit from being an 8 slot tournament for CAPCL.

I think 3 SV slots is about perfect for our needs; its a new meta that will be in need of a lot of meta development, but doing any more could lead to exhausting the player pool. At the same time, any less and we aren't getting as much info about the new meta as we could be getting.

Similarly, I think representing SS, SM, ORAS with one slot a piece is good for us. They're all metas that have are relatively developed, have relatively solid playerbases, and shouldn't be too hard to get players for.

Monotype saw play last CAP CL, and while I was no help prepping for it, it seemed fun. The players here aren't going to draw from our usual pools (to an extent), and the games were of solid quality.

That gets us to 7, and the last can be a choice between either BW or DPP. I'm not hugely biased in favor of either.

 

[dex]

I'm of the opinion that CAPCL should focus on the lesser played metas I.E. CAP "OMs" and older gens. However, not all of the available choices are made equal.

Tier Discussion:

SV CAP - It should obviously be in. The question here is how many slots. This is dependent on how many slots there are for the tour as a whole (2 SV for 6 slot or 3 SV for 8 slot). I'll get to what number of slots is best later.

SS CAP - I think it would be nice to have a tour without SS, flatly. It is the most recent gen, which IMO CAPCL should not focus on. However, there is merit to capitalizing on the money tour's outreach, as SS CAP unquestionably has the largest number of people who have at least played the tier. 30k Joeshh baby.

SM CAP - The crowd favorite should definitely be in. It's now an old enough gen to qualify for this tour.

ORAS CAP - Similarly to SM, ORAS should be a lock for its established player base and age.

BW CAP - Perhaps this is a less-agreed upon take, but BW CAP should also be locked in. BW OU is a fairly popular meta and, honestly, the two tiers are incredibly similar.

DPP CAP - The odd ball of the old gens, DPP is a take-it-or-leave-it option. It would be cool to inspire actual progress for the tier through this tour, but DPP is absolutely the most alien of the old gens due to its mechanical differences and, from my limited knowledge of the meta, it plays quite differently from DPP OU, so there would absolutely be a learning curve. Right now, I think it should be in, but it is between this and my beloved SS.

Monotype CAP - Of the "OMs", Monotype CAP is the easy choice. Not only was it a tier in last CAPCL, but it was also a tier in TPPL, a much larger tournament. It does have some troubling aspects to it (SV Monotype isn't exactly "figured out" at the moment), but it is a solid choice.

CAP OM Bo3 - This has yet to be suggested but I figured I would throw it up as a possibility. The SV OM scene is already up and running, and given CAP's history of OM mashup tours and the surprising overlap between the two communities, it would be a really cool option to include. Obviously, the Bo3 tag is a bit daunting, but I don't think it would feel right to include just one of them. The three OMs I would suggest would be Godly Gift, STABmons, and CAAAP. Please for the love of god do not bring up Reevolution despite CAP playing host to the world's best Reevolution player quziel.

BDSP CAP - No. I speak as the CAP player who likely has the most experience with BDSP OU in saying that this is not a real option. The time has passed for us to include BDSP in a team tour. Not only that, but the tier is fairly busted with stuff like Arghonaut and Krilowatt. Not a good idea.

NatDex CAP - Yeah, this exists. Honestly, I don't think it would be a good idea to include this one, as it is omega unproven, but it is an option I suppose.

Slot Discussion:

I think 8 slots is both achievable and preferable. CAP has had a lot of growth in the past year, and the spike of activity that SV has brought Smogon should be taken advantage of fully. 8 slots is simply optimal as well for including more of the "wackier" tiers that don't see as much tour activity, which is what CAPCL should be all about.

Suggested Format:

SV
SV
SV
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP/SS - Prefer DPP
Monotype/OM Bo3 - Prefer Monotype

Manager Pricing and Money Pool:

There is never a right answer with manager pricing. However, I think a flat price makes the most sense. Every other option, like polling managers for prices or using past experience, is way too jank. IIRC something that has been done in the past is setting manager self-buys at 12.5% of the total money pool. Given that I support an 8 slot format, I think a money pool of 120k would make the most sense, setting manager self-buys at 15k, which is pretty nice. While that may over/undervalue a few managers, I don't think it's too egregious in any way.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Slots: I honestly don't really see a reason that we shouldn't go with 8 slots here. CAP has grown quite a bit over the course of this year, plus Smogon as a whole is seeing an increase in activity due to us being in the beginning stages of Gen 9.

Tiers: I would suggest SV/SV/SV/SS/SM/ORAS/BW/X. I'm really not sure what I want in the 8th slot to be entirely honest. I'm sort of leaning towards wanting a second SS slot (Since I do think that having multiple SS slots it's a decent way to keep the interest of the players who participated in the money tour), but I understand why some people might not want to have a second SS slot since many of us are sort of getting tired with Gen 8. That being said, I wouldn't be entirely against DPP, although my main concern with featuring it is that I'm sort of worried about how alien the tier might be for a lot of players (Due to both mechanical differences from newer gens and because, to my knowledge, DPP CAP and DPP OU are fairly different, and the resources we have for DPP CAP we have at the moment aren't very great to say the least). Also, if we are going with 8 Slots, Gen 9 should absolutely have a minimum of 3 slots, as that is the golden standard for current gen. However, I'm not really comfortable going with any more than that though, just because the tier is quite unstable due to being so new.

 

[spoo]

8 slots is the way to go. It's true that CAPCL theoretically shouldn't see as many signups as PL, given that it's during the winter, no CA prize, difference in tiers, etc - however, our last CAPCL actually had more signups than any TT before it, so I think we'll see an amount that's at least comparable to last PL and enough to support 8 slots. This also allows for more tier diversity; when we have heavy overlap with CAPPL in terms of tiers but a quantifiable drop in prestige and signups/interest, this tour sorta starts to become a miniature, worse version of PL, instead of a tournament with a unique identity and benefits.

As for tiers, my philosophy is that we should be giving priority to our fledgling oldgens and certain OMs, namely Monotype, that are able to support themselves (ie they have a real playerbase and some previous development). I think this tour is a great pipeline for old-oldgens to receive the necessary development in order to justify their inclusion in CAPPL, our premier tour with an identity rooted in featuring old generations.

CAPCL, on the other hand, has no such commitment to our best oldgen metagames; our most developed and "premier" oldgens - SM, and now SS - can stand to be left out of this tour, just as SM was left out of last CAPCL. While you could argue that SM needs further development post-Jumbao nerf, it was firmly developed (some would even say solved) before the nerf, has a strong and well-established playerbase, and I think overall just has the least to gain (aside from SS) from being included here. These might sound like reasons in SM's favor if anything - its inclusion would likely improve the quality of the tour from a competitive standpoint - but honestly I'd prefer this tournament to prioritize tiers with more playerbase reach (Mono) or younger tiers that would greatly benefit from serious tournament play (BW/DPP).

Not gonna say much on BDSP/NatDex CAP because I think they are truly awful picks. SV/ORAS/BW/DPP/Mono, and to a lesser extent SM, are what I consider to be the strongest options for this tour. As for what should be locked in, at least 3x SV, 1x BW, and 1x Monotype should be guaranteed. SV is our flagship metagame right now (or when it becomes playable) while BW and Mono have proven themselves to be great picks during last CAPCL - in fact, as a manager last CL who had to draft Mono/BW slots and paid close attention to the pools, I would argue Monotype actually performed better than BW in terms of signups & quality of games. I would also like to argue for ORAS's inclusion, mostly on the basis that it's still undergoing active tiering/development and it being in the last installment of CL.

After thinking a lot about what to do with the last two slots, I'd like to support DPP. Full transparency, the tier will probably be utterly migraine inducing to draft for and support, just as BW was for like 5/6 teams last CL; however, team tour representation is the only way these things can truly get off the ground and see growth. The last slot is a big question mark - a 4th SV would be the best way to jumpstart development for the tier but it would also literally be half the lineup, while SM avoids that issue but turns the tier into CAPPL-lite with Monotype>SS. Other options like Bo3 or OMs aren't really appealing to me.

All that being said, this is my proposal: SV / SV / SV / SV > SM / ORAS / BW / DPP / Mono

 

[shnowshner]

8 slots should definitely work given how the last two major SS tournaments saw such huge numbers of signups compared to the previous large tournaments. There is obvious interest in CAP metas following the decent amount of press we got from the money tour and, if this summer's CAPPL was any indication, opening up to 8 slots seemed to get more people confidence in signing up and getting drafted.

SV should have three slots. It's the newest generation and we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to not get the ball rolling in its development, especially with the massive shift in play Terastallization has introduced.

SS would be fine to include as it retains a knowledgeable playerbase and we did have like 200+ people playing it for a cash prize not too long ago. Granted, many are simply riding with whatever the current generation is, but given the mixed feelings for Tera at the moment I can imagine enough people would be fine sticking with familiar territory versus getting fished by random Water/Dark/idk fuckin Poison Cawmodore. The burnout on SS is definitely real and fully understandable, but I wouldn't say the tier doesn't have any room left for experimentation, especially after the many surprises money tour brought.

SM should be added. People seemed to have turned hard from "solved metagame i hate building for" to "best metagame ever made" even before Bao got nerfed. Definitely looks like it's going through a renaissance right now + it'd be nice to see how the meta has changed post-Drought Jumbao.

ORAS good, nothing else to say. I know there has been a lot of kerfuffle about, well Kerfluffle and its place in the tier, though I have zero experience with the tier nor do I know if there are plans to do anything or if the playerbase is fine keeping things as-is.

BW is where things get a bit iffy, partially because BW OU is already a bit of a mess along with a playbase of slightly dubious size. It's worked fine in the past and I doubt things would be a problem now, the biggest question to me is if people would be more interested in something else instead.

DPP CAP is certainly one of the metagames of all time. It has a playerbase, semi-regular roomtours on PS, and there are resources for it. Pretty unfortunate that most of us lack interest or hesitate to try DPP out, but it is quite alienated from the rest of CAP metagames and the state of its metagame + the CAPs within are rather far removed from the rest of our main metagames and the way we like to keep them maintained, a natural result of it being made before almost all of us were around. BW is kinda similar in this regard, but is wholly more familiar and simple to get into thanks in large part to Team Preview existing, along with any other important mechanical changes introduced then that DPP lacks. I would like to echo sentiments that DPP will continue being in this underdeveloped state its in the more we divert our attention from it, so if there's any interest in keeping the oldest playable CAP generation around I think we should get around to it sooner than later.

CAP OMS

In general I think there's some that we can include on their own, and others that can be included as a Bo3 option. I'm not fully sold on all of them because of how early in the generation we are, and thus the rather small amount of information and development these have gotten compared to the main SV tiers like OU.

LC is another one of those metagames that exists. There's some funky stuff down there right now and tbh if we feel like doing something more experimental this isn't a bad option. Perhaps something we'd need to discuss further w.r.t. movepool updates for CAPs and Prevos if we don't want to have Cawdet and Solotl terrorize the metagame again and try to actually make CAP LC a real thing.

Monotype would be an excellent fit, for two mains reasons: first, we've seen it garner interest from last CAPCL and have competitive merit as well. There's no serious mechanical learning curve you need to get under your belt like other OMs present, but rather an understanding of which team types are strong and what sort of matchups you should expect. Secondly, Monotype banned Tera, and I envision a decent number of people willing to take up the metagame to experience new SV stuff without such a contentious mechanic permeating how you build and play the tier.

Natdex feels a bit too unproven/untested for me to support it, and there's still a decent amount in the air about base National Dex and its identity.

STABmons: this is one of the simplest OMs to understand at its core, really only requiring you to be aware of inheritance mechanics (i.e. Sylveon getting Normal-type moves from Eevee or Clefable having access to Normal moves you can transfer from when it was Normal-type) and what moves demand respect in the builder. All said, CAPs in general are very strong, highly scrutinized Pokemon that often lack certain tools for a reason, so we'd have to deal with the consequences of various CAPs being given insane moves they definitely shouldn't have. At the same time, this is the easiest pipeline to wholesale experience Jet Punch Arghonaut and that would be pretty funny.

AAA: Similar situation to the above, though it's easier to grasp as a concept due to being "select an ability to a legal one in the builder" with zero other stipulations outside of the one-per-team limit. Unlike STAB, however, it can be a bit more involved to figure out what a particular Pokemon is running, and with the tier still very early and lots of frankly insane abilities available right now (Poison Heal, Good as Gold, Ruin abilities, Box legend abilities, Fur Coat/Ice Scales) I don't know if its got a solid enough foundation to be a competitively balanced tier alongside the rest of the tour. To say nothing of what happens when you let stuff like Kerf/Nect/Chrom have actual Abilities or free Persistent.

GG: Godly Gift is in a bit of a weird spot right now, with Koraidon/Miraidon being the only two "normal" Gods, and the four OU banned mons, of which one is Flutter Mane (sorta outclassed though not outright bad), one is Houndstone (the funny but it's got pretty mediocre stats), and one is Palafin (457 BST). I don't think it's unworkable since the fundamentals of GG are reasonable enough and it is quite popular overall.

The last three I bring up specifically because they have actual precedent behind them. I think there's a couple other OM/CAP crossovers that have potential but we'd be going into very unfamiliar territory with them, and it'd probably be best to stick with ones we have some prior experience with and could quickly identify key issues with (such as GG Cari being demonic).


I am considering if I want to make some sort of form/survey to get better results on what people are interested in playing versus what people would want to see played. Throwing a bone to DPP/OMs would be nice for its fans, but if signups can't muster up a group of people actually interested in pushing the tiers forward, they'd probably end up dragging the tournament down. Similarly, it could tell us if SS still has a following or if consensus is that people would rather take a break from SS. There's also questions of how would we get people to participate, how can we moderate the results, and the ultimate question of do we even want to bother making one. I think it still might be handy even if just as a way for PR people to share their thoughts on what they would want to play in a way that's easier than writing a post but more detailed than one of the forum reacts.

 

[pannu]

i wanted to say that if were gonna include anything om-like it should be nd cap, other oms seem a bit mickey mouse and frankly i think that nd cap is quite similar to how bw and mono were last year irt resources and metagame development, there's nothing wrong with starting with 6 slots and making it 8 if the signups allow it or vice-verse IMO. also please do not put bo3 in a tour which people will not be heavily invested in

 

[Kaede]

speaking as nd leader

I dont think ND CAP should be featured, they're merely stuck at a discord level right now and recently lost one of their leaders and 2 council members, leaving them with one leader and council member and with the discord dying off in terms of discussion. Its also why I dont see gen 9 nd cap becoming a thing.

if any of you wanna try and restart it for gen 9 we'd love it if you do, can hit up Sulo and see the game plan from there.

@ format i dont have much thoughts on it but i dont agree with shoving off SS completely. Just signing up the gen to be overlooked as a tier and become dead in developments post. Its better to keep the momentum of the tier going slowly rather than just killing it off.

SV CAP
SV CAP
SS CAP
SM CAP
ORAS CAP
BW CAP
DPP CAP
X CAP

admittedly i dont have much thoughts on the last one, Monotype CAP probably fits best, was featured last CAP CL. Bo3 retro gens also doesnt sound like a bad idea or bo3 last 3 gens but yea i dont feel strongly about any of these.

 

[Sulo]

speaking as nd leader

I dont think ND CAP should be featured, they're merely stuck at a discord level right now and recently lost one of their leaders and 2 council members, leaving them with one leader and council member and with the discord dying off in terms of discussion. Its also why I dont see gen 9 nd cap becoming a thing.

if any of you wanna try and restart it for gen 9 we'd love it if you do, can hit up Sulo and see the game plan from there.

@ format i dont have much thoughts on it but i dont agree with shoving off SS completely. Just signing up the gen to be overlooked as a tier and become dead in developments post. Its better to keep the momentum of the tier going slowly rather than just killing it off.

SV CAP
SV CAP
SS CAP
SM CAP
ORAS CAP
BW CAP
DPP CAP
X CAP

admittedly i dont have much thoughts on the last one, Monotype CAP probably fits best, was featured last CAP CL. Bo3 retro gens also doesnt sound like a bad idea or bo3 last 3 gens but yea i dont feel strongly about any of these.

just confirming that i would be super down to co-lead with someone more knowledgeable ab cap bc rn things r dying off in ndcap atm. hmu if you'd wanna help develop resources for it, on disc as Sulo#7802.

anw to avoid a no substance one-liner, i do agree w 2 sv slots + every oldgen till dpp + an om; adding an om would be p good for further developing those metagames and while a tour like this might not be the best testing ground (if it should be one at all for the more niche metagames), it could still prove to be incredibly beneficial for them.

as such:
sv, sv, ss, sm, oras, bw, dpp, om (mono/gg/stab etc)

 

[Garrett]

Jokes aside to oldgens, this is the opportunity of the year to run them back. It would be pointless to have these tiers and not use this. tour. BW and DPP may need a staggered week of “the council deliberates and applies a hot patch to make them slightly more enjoyable and better in the builder” but I think that’s more than fine.

As the dude that ran the OM tours, it’s important to remember that usually a couple CAP mons would break the tier they were in. The surprise bans are ok in tours where there’s no hardcore competitive drive. Here, I imagine the broken surprises of SV CAP AAA or CAP STAB would get OM mainers angry to build around every thing. CAP Mono is probably the safest but even that is almost guaranteed to be crazy given the restricted dex and weird type diversity in gen 9. I also think the 1v1 community is cracked and would be ok to run back for REAL CAP 1v1 (no random battles, the 1v1 format with a few more CAP mons). Ultimately, the issue with the OMs is that most OMs are barely functional right now because SV is barely functional. Mono and 1v1 are cutting it close.

As for managers, I don’t care too much, but I think if we increase slots they should be lower to self buy because we may have a bigger and presumably better pool to pull from, like we saw in CAPPL if the Whims could learn how to purchase a team.

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

am in support of 8 slots, have felt that it was difficult to slot in only six people into the starting lu in both of the recent team tours

SV CAP
SV CAP
SV CAP
SS CAP
SM CAP
ORAS CAP
BW CAP
Mono CAP

3xSV is a no brainer. SS should absolutely stay - its in a great place with recent metagame development, both due to buffs and money tour. SM and ORAS are excellent tiers which generated (mostly) positive responses in the recent past. [oras kerf is being looked at as we speak!]. Mono is good for reasons mentioned above (new playerbase without overlap / success last time). As for the last slot, i think BW is a great fit, its easily the best option remaining, and with the gems banned the "state of the tier" is also better.

strongly against the inclusion of oms rn. things may spiral out of control if we use this tour as a sandbox, given that there is not much to go off of

 

[Brambane]

I agree with 8 slots. I also agree with the six of 3SV 1SwSh 1SM 1Oras.

The other two slots I don't feel super strongly about. I greatly enjoy BW CAP, and the metagame likely benefits from the loss of Gems since it means that defensive CAPs like Arghonaut, Malaconda, Mollux, and Revenankh no longer get blown to pieces by stuff. I am one of the few, few, FEW players that probably enjoys DPP CAP, albeit that metagame feels admittedly unstable since stuff like Rev and Kit are absolutely bonkers good. However, the tier deserves a place to be tested and CAPCL is probably it.

I personally don't like Monotype Bo1 based on my experience in last CAPCL (both with the games we won and we lost) but making it Bo3 is probably too tall of an ask. I think the metagame would be a fine addition regardless of my personal chagrin to it, the community is solid and the meta tests the CAPs in an interesting way. Let's ban Cawmodore from SV CAP Monotype out of the gate though please.

If we are okay with doing something like Bo5 or Bo7, I love 1v1 as a metagame and think the addition of SV CAPs would be interesting. I don't expect the general CAP playerbase to bite on this, and don't have a good enough pulse on the 1v1 regulars if they would buy-in the the tour.

If we are going ahead with a CAP OM, I would probably go for AAA of the bunch. The Bo3 between Godly Gift, STABmons, and AAA is dangerously spicy but sounds a bit like a meme slot that I would force Zephyri to play every week.

There is one other format I want to put out there: a doubles option. If we want boldly go where no CAP has gone before, either Doubles OU + CAP or VGC/Battle Stadium Doubles + CAP sounds like the most fun. This metagame is mostly untested outside of like me and snake, and SV is completely new ground. A lot of the CAPs have inherent synergy with doubles in their kits, and it would likely let CAPs shine in a new way. Personally, I think the Bo3 VGC format is the most interesting. Also let's you use Sheer Cold Krilowatt to risk it for the biscuit.

In order of preference for the last two slots: BW > CAP VGC > Mono = 1v1 = CAP Doubles OU > DPP > AAA > Bo3 OMs

And let's just do a flat price for managers this year, some will probably be overpriced and some will definitely be underpriced, but I like the 12.5% of the pool that dex mentioned.

 

[roxie]

Excited to see Monotype talk about this, but I haven't been in communication with CAP Moderators about SV CAP Monotype. Flying and Steel have way less support for Cawmodore; however, that doesn't justify necessarily give broken Pokemon permission to remain in the tier. It's moreso the general (CAP Monotype) tier being completely fresh and SS being a completely different ballgame compared to our metagame with Screens/Unaware/General New Additions. The tier is better off just applying the current Monotype banlist then apply same type clause for the time being.

 

[SHSP]

Thank you guys so much for the great discussion this early on! You're certainly giving us a lot to work with, and I want to take some time to pry for some more specifics.

Re: Slots- Overwhelming consensus so far is that 8 is the way to go slot number wise, but is it worth considering the "start at 6, bump up with signups" approach that has been suggested?

Re: Tiers- Lot of talk about these, and it seems like this is gonna be the hardest bit of this to work out, so I want to make sure we discuss this to death if we need to. Specifically,

SS and SM have mixed approval in this thread so far, leaning slightly positively towards their inclusion. It's also led to proposals like Spitfire's and Kaede's, which focus heavily on the old gens- SS, SM, ORAS, BW and sometimes DPP. Is this approach to CAPCL- an old gens focus that loops in some of the more developed ones in SS, SM and ORAS- preferable?

A more OM's focus approach has been less supported by comparison, but ideas like an OM Bo3 slot have been thrown for consideration. Are things like this, especially early in the gen, effective slots?

I've also got a few questions for some specific tiers and metas-

DPP- On paper, this is the tournament for DPP to shine in. Underdeveloped old gen meta with a lot of potential and needing an arena to showcase itself in. However, compared to where say, BW CAP was pre-CAPCL I, DPP has a few more challenges, namely the jarring differences both between it and any future CAP meta and from DPP OU entirely, as put by others in thread and in Discord conversation. Spoo's post to start the thread is an argument in favor- it may be a hard sell for this tournament, but neccesary for the meta to be sustainable. Other posts have raised issues with the tier and the signups it would draw. I'd love to hear more about DPP, if it deserves a lot in the first place, and if it can sustain a team tour's worth of slots for this time around.

Mono- So, I may have forgotten when discussing this originally that Monotype is, you know, also going through the gen transition to SV, as Roxie pointed out earlier today. Is SS Mono more worth discussing, here, considering the status of the now-oldgen?

Dubs- Brambane's post suggested the addition of a dubs meta, which would not be the first time CAP Dubs has seen the light of day- it was a mainstay of the first three CAPTTs (CAPPL before a namechange, for those who are fresh to this). It making a grand return would be a huge ask, compared to even some of the SS-era OMs- it has no real userbase, resources, or exploration, and it is a format that on paper seems hard to find support for from a primarily singles-playing community. Despite the uphill climb that the format would clearly face, is it worth looking into either a Dubs or a VGC option here? Do they have other positives they can bring to the tournament, or even future additions?

Thanks for the discussion so far, again. The team has been discussing some internally and we'll likely be kicking that discussion up into gear in the near future!

 

[Garrett]

SV 1
SV 2
SS
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP/CAP VGC/CAP Mono
CAP VGC/CAP Mono

I guess I saw DPP CAP different than quite a few people on this thread. A number think it's either past a point of no return or requires more hot patching than Overwatch 2. After considerations, I think 2 SV is enough. It seems that the friendlier OMs are more conducive to receiving guaranteed player signups (and probably is way healthier to get in contact with other parts of the forums as early as we can in the gen). If we want to maximize signups we probably axe BW for a third SV and denounce those old gens as dead.

8 slots is fine.

Mono- So, I may have forgotten when discussing this originally that Monotype is, you know, also going through the gen transition to SV, as Roxie pointed out earlier today. Is SS Mono more worth discussing, here, considering the status of the now-oldgen?

Straight up ask the Mono community. Reach out and figure out what stacks more bread for the hosts and the prospective players.

Dubs- Brambane's post suggested the addition of a dubs meta, which would not be the first time CAP Dubs has seen the light of day- it was a mainstay of the first three CAPTTs (CAPPL before a namechange, for those who are fresh to this). It making a grand return would be a huge ask, compared to even some of the SS-era OMs- it has no real userbase, resources, or exploration, and it is a format that on paper seems hard to find support for from a primarily singles-playing community. Despite the uphill climb that the format would clearly face, is it worth looking into either a Dubs or a VGC option here? Do they have other positives they can bring to the tournament, or even future additions?

Thanks for the discussion so far, again. The team has been discussing some internally and we'll likely be kicking that discussion up into gear in the near future!

I prefer VGC > Doubles because of the pull VGC has. Just look at YouTube views. That solves your resource and motivation-to-develop-and-innovate problem.

 

[dex]

SV
SV
SV
SS
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP

This is now the format I think is best due to Monotype's immaturity as a tier. Doubles formats I don't think should be featured in a team tour due to their general state of unprovenness. Have a couple unofficials for doubles formats before including it here.

There should be 3 SV slots. Will the quality of the games be absolutely peak? Probably not, but this is the best way to develop the tier. Going less than 3 should not be an option.

 

[shnowshner]

I think it might be worth keeping CL "main tiers" focused this early in the gen as it means we only need to focus on SV in terms of damage control and meta development. Would hopefully be easier on Managers/Teams to only worry about SV as the unexplored metagame versus having to figure out something like CAP VGC which has zero resources or history behind it.

8 slots means we can very easily go 3 SV and every oldgen. This sounds optimal imo for ensuring competitiveness while also providing enough uncharted territory from SV and largely DPP.

If people want to try adjustable slots based on signups, I think we either drop BW + DPP or lower SV to 2 if people want BW preserved. I like 8 most so neither is something I have strong opinions on.

 

[roxie]

I think it would be fine to just not include oms because the name of the tour is cap champions league and Ngl I’ve literally never heard of cap [vgc/doubles/insert random om like aaa] ever. Ultimately we should always try to have some sort of kickoff tour for any type of om included inside of the tour. Sv is one month in and if I can’t count on my fingers 6 or 8 players that currently play cap monotype considering the amount of support I put into that tier…I assure you there isn’t enough for any other for Sv cap + insert om.

SV
SV
SV
SS
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP

This is now the format I think is best due to Monotype's immaturity as a tier. Doubles formats I don't think should be featured in a team tour due to their general state of unprovenness. Have a couple unofficials for doubles formats before including it here.

There should be 3 SV slots. Will the quality of the games be absolutely peak? Probably not, but this is the best way to develop the tier. Going less than 3 should not be an option.

 

[Steam Buns]

Been pleasantly surprised by the amount of support for both BW and DPP, and I'd like address all of the discussion I've seen for them so far. As well as briefly giving my thoughts on the other potential slots.

DPP
I've seen concerns about both the quality of resources for DPP and it's Balance, neither of which I see as issues currently, the VR and set compendium are both entirely up to date and samples have an update on the way. In my opinion the tiers balance Issues are also massively overstated. When the DPP CAP was much younger a number of threats seemed almost impossible to deal with, but the tier still was severely underdeveloped. Reliable counterplay does exist for everything you face it will just take players some time to become familiar with it.

There is one other major concern with DPP CAP that I won't dispute, it is VERY different to OU. You could illustrate this with the fact that the 4 highest spots on the vr are all capmons or that almost every team has a spinner and a spinblocker. Unlike BW CAP which expands upon OU without drastically changing what already works, DPP is more limited, you can't simply take an ou team change one thing and call it a day. Needless to say, drafting and supporting for DPP will be nightmarish, HOWEVER, what makes this tier great is that it rewards skill and fundamentals above all else and there is never a matchup or position you can't outplay to win. So as long as we can find people willing to play it, I can guarantee some of the most interesting and competitive games will come out of DPP.

BW
Less to say here, I really think BW is most obvious choice after SV and ORAS, like DPP the balance issues are very overstated, it's obviously not perfect, but having played a lot of BW OU recently I can very confidently say building for CAP still feels far better. Since BW was in the last CAPCL I expect the meta to mostly just pick up where it left off and likely experience even more development this time around.

Everything else
I'm fairly indifferent to both SM and SS, they are fine to have but I don't think they should be priorities. OMs are a weird one, I'm not very familiar with any of them but current gen OMs seem like too much of a gamble. However SS 1v1 CAP and SS Mono CAP are both worth considering in my opinion, it probably just comes down to whether there is enough of a player base.

 

[spoo]

i really liked cap monotype in last year's capcl but the concerns about the tier in gen 9 are definitely understandable - it's ultimately up there with every other cap OM as being simply too young right now. i don't think it would really make sense to include SS capmono, either, so it seems best that we leave it out altogether for now, though hopefully it can make it into next year's edition of the tour

will also support the notion that other OMs (doubles, natdex, 1v1, vgc, stab, whatever else) are going to be poor choices for us. we shouldn't be literally inventing tiers for the sole purpose of shoehorning them into this tournament. i am a big fan of including developing OMs in capcl, just like we did with capmono and BW (not an OM per se but still) last year, but those tiers still had some baseline meta/playerbase development. the suggestions to include formats in one of our two main TTs that genuinely haven't had a single game played in them since gen 9 - some of which being not that much better off even in gen 8 - are not ones that i feel comfortable supporting. sorry but i can guarantee that these tiers will be total shitshows for everyone involved if they make it into this tournament

given that the recent generational transition left most OMs without time to develop, dex's suggestion of 3sv + every pastgen is probably our best bet. the suggestion to have a backup 6-tier plan seems nice on paper, but i think it won't pan out in reality - for example, in a 6-slot format like 3SV/ORAS/BW/DPP, starting off by accepting SS + SM and then wiping them away if we don't have enough total signups feels like it would have some obvious complications. likewise it'll be much harder to hit the threshold for 8 slots if we don't start with those tiers right away; ie, if we need 300 signups (arbitrary number) to justify 8 slots, and say 100 of those signups would come from SS/SM, we'll never reach enough signups for 8 slots with a format like SV/ORAS/BW/DPP even if we actually would have by starting with SS/SM right away. i think these issues exist regardless of whatever tiers we end up choosing so we should really just commit to either 6 or 8 off the bat.

 

[SHSP]

Thanks again to everyone who's posted so far. This has been really great discussion and it's given Wulf and I a lot to discuss. We've come to a few preliminary thoughts we wanted to get out into the thread.

We're leaning towards committing to 8 slots from the outset. We're confident we can attract a good number of signups across the tiers, and we think that picking one and sticking to it is the best course of action compared to starting with a 6 slot proposal and upping it to 8 later.

Tiers wise, we're considering the following proposal:
SV
SV
SV
SS
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP

Three SV slots to start off the generation strong and to give it a heavy introduction, as it will be one of the tiers most unexplored from the get-go. SS, SM and ORAS are well developed both as tiers and playerbases, and fit the overall theme of an all-gens focused proposal. BW is well on its way to that high level of development, and there's no better tournament for it to continue to grow and show it can be a viable option in CAPPL even. DPP has been waiting for a while now, and though it does offer a number of challenges, an expanded slot, all-gen focused CAPCL is a perfect launching point for our most unknown old gen.

We are also leaning towards a fixed price managerial selfbuy. It is more than likely the simplest, cleanest and easiest option for a successful result. No number has been decided on or really thought of much quite yet.

Thank you guys again for the discussion, and I'm keeping the thread open for more surrounding this proposal- we'll be keeping an eye on it! More timing on things like this threads closing, managerial signups and details on SV CAP will come as we figure them out.

 

[D2TheW]

What's up it's ya boy D2 coming at you with the worst takes imaginable. In my opinion, it is almost inavoidable that this tour is gonna be a chaotic mess. This is nobody's fault, it's just how it's gonna be when we have 3 sv slots that are gonna be all over the place. Now some people would argue that this would make the tour bad but I would say it's gonna be fun as shit. As such I am advocating for maximum chaos. This is the opportunity to develop tiers that would otherwise be kinda in a better tour. That being said...

DPP:
My opinion on this tier is no secret. If I had my way we'd strap 5 kgs of Francium to it and chuck it down a well. However, we're not gonna get a better opportunity to give it a shot so I think we should take it. And if it sinks, which seems somewhat likely, at least it got a go. Some real concerns about drafting for this slot but I'm not managing so it ain't my problem frankly if we don't get 6 potential players we can just go back and cut it before the tour starts. Anyone who starts binpin here deserves whatever happens to them btw.

BW:
Shoe in imo. Wasn't bad last time and will hopefully improve with more play.

Oras:
Also a big yes from me, gotta develop post kerf meta.

Mono:
I'd like mono to be included but I defer to whatever mono people say. Doesn't seem like the time is right from what I've heard but the door should be left open if they think it'll work.

OMs:
Obviously we can't do sv oms, not really explicitly against doing ss oms but I just don't really see the point.

1v1:
I play 1v1. I have played cap 1v1 (forma de no normal mons) a fair amount and I have even played a bit of normal 1v1 with caps added. Do not include this. Please.

2v2:
FUCK YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH

Number of Slots:
I don't have a lotta faith in 8 slots. To be brutally honest, looking back at last years signups for this we could not have run 8 and most of the teams drafted couldn't reasonably have fielded 8 starters. I think the custom avi carried signups a lot in pl and I don't think that's gonna stick, even if there will presumably continue to be an uptick in signups. Ultimately I think it's fine to start with 8 slots as long we're prepared to cut to 6 if we have to. Anyone who advocates for 7 slots as an if between number will answer to me and my freshly acquired 2003 Ford Focus.

Lineup:
If we do hit enough quality signups for 8 slots, I support the slots listed in shsps last post of sv x3 and x1 of everything else down to dpp. If we do have to go down to 6 I'd be in favour of cutting ss and sm. Now this is kinda wack but I wanna torture the managers I'd rather we just go all in on developing metas since, as previously mentioned, this tour isn't gonna be the height of competition anyway. I'd rather we include dpp now and determine once and for all if we should turn off the life support and then go back to including ss and sm when cappl rolls around then keep those and leave dpp and bw/oras in the dark. SS and SM are currently doing fine and will be fine when we get to cappl. Obviously if we manage to get 8 slots there's no reason to cut em but if we have to drop to 6 those should be on the block imo. Embrace the chaos.

This is the only time you will ever see me advocate for dpp, good night.

 

[SHSP]

Hey everyone,

After some pretty spirited back and forth, we've arrived at some decisions. Wulf, the other tour hosts/meta mods, and I have decided we're taking the leap to 8 slots this tournament. The format will be as follows:

SV
SV
SV
SS
SM
ORAS
BW
DPP

In addition, we are going with a fixed 12.5k managerial/assistant price point to encourage their play, and keeping the budget of 120k from the 8 slot CAPPL VIII. Managerial signups going up shortly!