Gen 5 BW OU Viability Ranking Thread - RoA edition

Status
Not open for further replies.
But Kyurem-B does not stick to mixed attacker, it's the most powerful Outrage on earth, banded Kyurem-B is a beast, it OHKOs a lot of stuff (Skarm with Fusion Bolt being the most impressive) and can be a good Scarf (being faster than +1 Dnite / Gyara and threatening them is cool).

So I'd say Hydreigon and Kyurem-B should be at the same level.
this is the key part. their niches actually aren't that comparable. the advantages of special based lo kyub vs hydrei are pretty trivial aside from resoundingly threatening hippo (important in the context of dragmag where the set is most commonly seen) and checking lo starmie. hydrei is almost always better in the special/mix department because of its more unforgiving coverage and higher splashability from being less hazard prone and adding on a fire resist that can be helpful against tran especially if you go full special. furthermore, special hydrei's ability to switch headlong into mew/jellicent/other waters and get real dark with them is another valuable feature for the sand offenses in which it thrives that kyub doesn't offer. that one needed emphasis.

now hydrei's niche held against the full scope of kyub, including the physical sets (mainly cb) where it distinguishes itself from the entirety of ou, is a more difficult analysis, but i'd be inclined to designate them both A+ with a slight edge in hydrei's favor. for me, it simply boils down to hydrei's aforementioned splashability filtering into the consistency and ease of play of its slot, factors that i think s/upper a should epitomize. layman's version: it switches into more attacks, it switches more freely into hazards, it therefore fires off more attacks while being almost as damaging as kyub's highest break potential sets, etc etc.

if u really wanna grasp unforgiving coverage tho i suggest u load up that cb N.I.G.G.A. with about two moveslots sometime. it's a higher opportunity cost selection but a higher reward for sure to punish people who like to be able to switch.
 
#
Hydrei can take Scald as well and is even not annoyed by burn most of the time (well it is because of the -12%, but it does not get a power drop on some moves as Kyurem does (only true if it does not have superpower tho).

The defensive types of Kyurem-B is bad, it does not resist to fire when Hydrei does (well at least it's not weak to Ice attacks), and if you want to make a comparison between Kyurem and Hydreigon, you should take thses sets into account :

(M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk (if no Superpower)
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast / Focus Blast / Superpower
- Roost

@ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Mild Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Roost

They are similar. Main differences are :

Hydreigon not having a real counter, Kyurem Black is stopped by sDef Jirachi (unless drops from Earth Power).
Hydreigon is immune to Spikes and is neutral to SR when Kyurem-B takes damages from Spikes and lost 25% on SR.
Hydreigon can easily switch on Water-type moves (mainly Scald) since he does not mind a burn (unless Superpower), Kyurem-Black would loose power with Fusion Bolt.
Hydreigon can prevent CM Reuniclus to set up.
Hydreigon is faster than Kyurem-B.
Kyurem-B has a batter bulk (able to take a Secret Sword from Scarf Keldeo at full and OHKO back with Fusion Bolt).
Kyurem-B is a better switch in to Bulky Grounds like Hippowdon.
Kyurem-B does not suffer 4MSS to hit everything it wants to hit (well, it could happen if you opt for Focus Blast > Earth Power to have an easier time with Ferrothorn)

For all these reasons Hydreigon is better than Kyurem-B when it's about to be a mixed attacker.

But Kyurem-B does not stick to mixed attacker, it's the most powerful Outrage on earth, banded Kyurem-B is a beast, it OHKOs a lot of stuff (Skarm with Fusion Bolt being the most impressive) and can be a good Scarf (being faster than +1 Dnite / Gyara and threatening them is cool).

So I'd say Hydreigon and Kyurem-B should be at the same level.
Yeah, agree with pretty much everything there. Both should be A+ as they are more offensively threatening than most Dragon types in A+ but have notable drawbacks (low Speed stat) which make them on par with Latios as offensive threats. Also, CB Kyurem is amazing, especially with Tailwind support.
 

Jirachee

phoenix reborn
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
By the way, I've made my "own" list of how I think BW OU should be ranked, I've even ordered the pokes in order of how good they are rather than alphabetically. Just some food for thought o.o

S Rank:

Garchomp
Keldeo
Tyranitar
Landorus-Therian
A Rank:

A+
Alakazam
Jirachi
Politoed
Latios
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
Volcarona
Scizor
Reuniclus
Starmie
Hydreigon
Kyurem-Black
Breloom​

A
Heatran
Terrakion
Jellicent
Gliscor
Gyarados
Mamoswine
Dragonite
Thundurus-Therian
Tornadus
Rotom-Wash
A-
Gastrodon
Tentacruel
Amoonguss
Latias
Mew
Hippowdon
Gengar
Celebi​

B Rank:

B+
Slowking
Magnezone
Gothitelle
Kyurem
Lucario
Toxicroak
Salamence
Abomasnow
Sableye
B
Forretress
Excadrill
Moltres
Sharpedo
Victini
Kingdra
Mienshao
Weavile
Froslass
Metagross
B-
Dugtrio
Chansey
Feraligatr
Quagsire
Slowbro
Roserade
Virizion
Conkeldurr
Xatu
Cobalion​

C Rank:

C
Azumarill
Aerodactyl
Azelf
Jolteon
Haxorus
Heracross
Infernape
Cresselia
Espeon
Ninetales
Chandelure
Wobbuffet
Darmanitan
Empoleon
Shaymin
Cloyster
Nidoqueen​
D Rank:

D
Blissey
Raikou
Staraptor
Vaporeon
Donphan
Nidoking
Bisharp
Togekiss
Venusaur
Cofagrigus
Ditto
Garbodor
Jynx
Kabutops
Porygon2
Scrafty
Smeargle
Bronzong
 
By the way, I've made my "own" list of how I think BW OU should be ranked, I've even ordered the pokes in order of how good they are rather than alphabetically. Just some food for thought o.o

S Rank:

Garchomp
Keldeo
Tyranitar
Landorus-Therian
A Rank:

A+
Alakazam
Jirachi
Politoed
Latios
Ferrothorn
Skarmory
Volcarona
Scizor
Reuniclus
Starmie
Hydreigon
Kyurem-Black
Breloom​

A
Heatran
Terrakion
Jellicent
Gliscor
Gyarados
Mamoswine
Dragonite
Thundurus-Therian
Tornadus
Rotom-Wash
A-
Gastrodon
Tentacruel
Amoonguss
Latias
Mew
Hippowdon
Gengar
Celebi​

B Rank:

B+
Slowking
Magnezone
Gothitelle
Kyurem
Lucario
Toxicroak
Salamence
Abomasnow
Sableye
B
Forretress
Excadrill
Moltres
Sharpedo
Victini
Kingdra
Mienshao
Weavile
Froslass
Metagross
B-
Dugtrio
Chansey
Feraligatr
Quagsire
Slowbro
Roserade
Virizion
Conkeldurr
Xatu
Cobalion​

C Rank:

C
Azumarill
Aerodactyl
Azelf
Jolteon
Haxorus
Heracross
Infernape
Cresselia
Espeon
Ninetales
Chandelure
Wobbuffet
Darmanitan
Empoleon
Shaymin
Cloyster
Nidoqueen​
D Rank:

D
Blissey
Raikou
Staraptor
Vaporeon
Donphan
Nidoking
Bisharp
Togekiss
Venusaur
Cofagrigus
Ditto
Garbodor
Jynx
Kabutops
Porygon2
Scrafty
Smeargle
Bronzong

Haven't played the new metagame, but any reason Heatran is still A-Rank? With the large nerfs to sun, I would assume it would deserve a drop. Other mons like Darmanitan and Infernape also seem like they could drop for the same reason.
 
Heatran's main source of viability never came from being a sun semi-staple, rather its ability to handle steels and dragons while spreading residual damage and taking hits like a champ. It was also never a great sun counter with its classic defensive set (its best throughout the gen, god help you if you're weak to it and face one cause it is a bitch to play around) due to the threat of Dugtrio, unless you were running Flame Charge / Scarf and got SR up in which case you were in business... but still. These sets also clean up hard against a lot of weatherless/sand offense with the slightest bit of support so they weren't purely an anti sun idea. To reiterate, sun nerf should not mean Tran drops.
 
Heatran's main source of viability never came from being a sun semi-staple, rather its ability to handle steels and dragons while spreading residual damage and taking hits like a champ. It was also never a great sun counter with its classic defensive set (its best throughout the gen, god help you if you're weak to it and face one cause it is a bitch to play around) due to the threat of Dugtrio, unless you were running Flame Charge / Scarf and got SR up in which case you were in business... but still. These sets also clean up hard against a lot of weatherless/sand offense with the slightest bit of support so they weren't purely an anti sun idea. To reiterate, sun nerf should not mean Tran drops.
Don't forget that wonderful Shed Shell bullshit, hahaha.

I think a lot of players just forgot Heatran's general uses outside the whole sun countering thing. No way in hell is it worse because Sun being pretty much dead now.
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis the 5th Smogon Classic Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 14 Championis a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
Big Chungus Winner
I mean, nobody sane in their right minds put SpDef Heatran
on a team and said "Sun Counter: Check" ever since like late 2011 when everyone and their mother put their mandatory mole alongside Ninetales and Venusaur. That is until Scarf Tran got some usage. And while we're talking about Heatran, Air Baloon 3 Atks is a pest for most Sand builds who hate dealing with strong special attackers with good coverage. It is particulary useful vs some offense where it can deal with a handful of members from Scizor to Garchomp/Dnite pre-baloon popping (Smurf's HO for example).

About Alakazam
, I can see the argument steel is making, I'm not particulary opiniated on the matter... Alakazam is borderline S for me too, might be better than Lando-T.

Regarding your list Jirachee, here are the changes I'd make, granted they reflect my preferences in the tier:
  • Breloom all up in the A+ Rank, between Politoed and Latios. Spore is too good in this tier, strong priority (with a good typing!), hits like a truck in general and the support set are incredibly good as well (Bulk Up/LS, good status absorber with passive recovery). Spore means you usually needs at least 2 very good checks to Breloom if you don't wanna be weak to it.
  • Volcarona needs to drop a bunch, it's "just" a great (might be the best) LGS that is anti-metagame by nature, but it provides very little to the team outside of that, and it requires support in the form of Spinning/Taunt Spam to work consistently. It will also struggles as soon as you face a team with a scarfer that can take care of it (but these teams have other weaknesses ofc). Anyway, I'd put it at the bottom of the A+ rank.
  • Starmie above Reuniclus imo, MAYBE above Scizor and the steel army too. It's the best Spinner in the tier (Offensive Starmie usually gets the one spin needed to set up Volcarona afterwards, while Defensive isn't too bad). Anyway, what makes Starmie so good is its Rain Offensive set, versatility + speed makes it a threat to p.much every playstyle and it's the biggest weatherless deterrent (with Scarf Keldeo I'd say) now that Sun are gone.
  • I'd put Heatran in A+ and Hydreigon/Kyurem-B at the top of A. Hydreigon is mostly a metagame trend that is already not as good as it used to now that the tier is shifting to a more offensive nature (losing to Hydreigon and Reuniclus isn't fun after all!). Terrakion might fit between Kyurem/Hydreigon actually, as soon as people realize SD Rock Gem is the way to go since it one shots Reuniclus and post-Intimidate Lando-T.
Those are the main changes I wanted to bring up, as far as the upper ranks go.

There are a lot of minor stuff I'd move around, but it's mostly coming from the fact that I like using them instead of the Pokemons ahead in the rankings (example: my trusty Mienshao ahead of Victini or Kingdra that I've pretty much never used).

I'd add these Pokemons to the rankings too:
  • Lapras
    probably has a better niche than half the shits in D-Rank and even some C-Rank (Haxorus in 2015? Empoleon?).
  • Magneton
    is a poor man's Magnezone, but it outspeeds the ever-present Alakazam and Starmie, definitly worth a spot imo.
  • Tangrowth
    is kind of a worse Amoonguss, but the better defense, lack of psychic weakness and most importantly ground resistance can be worth it at time.
  • Zapdos'
    coverage can be really hard to switch in. Most Rain teams actually have a lot of troubles with it for example, and so do the Tyranitar builds without Heatran. It's also deceptively bulky and once again, the coverage and naturally high SpA helps it deal with a handful of threats.
Maybe Wobbuffet could be worth a spot, but I feel like it's a very unexplored Pokemon, even after all these years of BW. Always felt it had a lot of potential but nobody really thinks about it when they build and it might not be worth the effort after all.
EDIT: Just noticed it's already ranked, woops!

Vive BW :afrostar:
 
McMeghan raises some good points, and I agree with his sentiments re: breloom and volcarona. I still think Alakazam should probably be bottom of S rank, spikes + magic guard users are still absurdly omnipresent even post wcop tier change. It is just so good at its role as a late game cleaner. You can even use Zammer @ LO w/ charge beam to destroy those sand balance builds that rely on scarf tar as their fastest mons.

Don't agree with Landorus-t being S rank at all, it is just not that great. Scarf lando-t is far too predictable and giving up setup opportunities on a locked move isn't desirable. It doesn't even outspeed volcarona if they are timid.. It is a bit like Thomas Muller, jack of all trades, master of none.
 
McMeghan raises some good points, and I agree with his sentiments re: breloom and volcarona. I still think Alakazam should probably be bottom of S rank, spikes + magic guard users are still absurdly omnipresent even post wcop tier change. It is just so good at its role as a late game cleaner. You can even use Zammer @ LO w/ charge beam to destroy those sand balance builds that rely on scarf tar as their fastest mons.

Don't agree with Landorus-t being S rank at all, it is just not that great. Scarf lando-t is far too predictable and giving up setup opportunities on a locked move isn't desirable. It doesn't even outspeed volcarona if they are timid.. It is a bit like Thomas Muller, jack of all trades, master of none.
I agree with you that the Scarf set isn't great but I've pretty much always used it for the Bulky Pivot set with SR which is by far the best one imo. With Intimadate it has really good Physical Defense while still hitting really hard for a defensive mon.

Double Dance can be really good but it's very match-up reliant because can't find many chances to set up vs certain teams and basically loses to Skarmory every time if your opponent is at least competent.

Therefore, I think it should stay in A+.
 

Reymedy

ne craint personne
is a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Breloom is S rank, period.

Tons of sets, no real counter to all of them, Spore is broken, priority, no more venusaur to wall it, sun team that were too fast paced are now gone.
Probably the best mon alongside Garchomp of the tier.

Excadrill so low looks wrong. Like it's so much better than anything in this B tier.
Kyub and Hydreigon shouldnt be A+, A instead. They need support and there are a lot of matchups where they are purely useless, especially Hydreigon. It's not because they fare well against the "i play ttar and 5 other bulky mons where my fastest mon is jellicent" teams built in 1 minute that they are that easy to build on. If anything, Kyub could stay A+ because it does have a lot of sets so way more flexibility when you build (you can use it in more teams). But Hydreigon, nein, it's too much of a mon to counter a certain playstyle and low speed tier on average teams lacking prio.
Like Terrakion is more viable, one of the few reliable rk to volcarona, it aint as bad against offense, has a lot of sets giving it actually unpredictability and an ability to beat its usual "counters". I dont think it should be A under the counterstyle dragons.


ps : i feel like alak is massively overated because "i got a sand with spikes but absolutly no pressure... oh alakazam, eureka", i dont really see it over, say, scizor which should be among the top of this a+ tier easily
 
Last edited:

FNH

F is for Finchi, N is for Nator, H is for Hater
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I definitely think Breloom should go to S. Seriously the guy is so unpredictable and he has spore. I mean seriously spore is such a pain in the ass to have take if you don't have the lum. It is as broken as fuck. Most of his counters can be pursuit trapped or just get spored if they don't carry lum/sleeptalk. Bulk up set is a pain in the ass to face and the focus punch fighting gem set rekts the shit outta teams. his fighting grass typing gives him great stabs and his access to technician and priority make him an offensive monster. def needs S rank
 
Agree with Breloom for S. That shit is seriously fucking annoying to play against. If it gets in on something slower it basically gets a kill unless the opp has a gliscor or something statused. Good versatility considering it can sweep frail, fast teams which the technichan SD set and makes defensive ones cry with Posion Heal+Bulk Up
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top