Lower Tiers BW NU Viability Rankings

[cb aaron judge]

agreed re: wartortle, its too slow/passive & the best method of hazard control in this tier is thru offensive pressure/taunt. b rank at best, b- at worst.
with shadow tag & assist/copycat being banned there is zero reason to use gothorita/riolu on a serious team. severely outclassed & should be sent straight to the depths of unranked.

 

[Stories]

Heard through the grape vine that this VR was getting an update post NUSD 2, so I wanted to get my 2 cents in before-hand.

First things first:

UR
UR

Their only niches have been banned, and need to be removed.

Rises

A- A+
Skuntank shuts down so much cheese like and checks extremely potent breakers such as Gardevoir, Misdreavous, Haunter, and Duosion. Stacking these Ghosts and Psychics have shown to be a very powerful and legitimate playstyle and can even be known to overwhelm Skuntank, but these styles also show they completely destroy most balance-oriented teams that don't have Skuntank. Also Pursuit is broken.

B+ A-
Extremely potent lead with solid set diversity. Has positive MU's vs all the top tier dogs.

B B+
Biased as its one of my favorite mons but its the only Volt Switch blocker and Charizard check in the tier, sets up Rocks reliably, spreads burns, and has a free 4th moveslot for HP Grass, Roar, Toxic, etc.

B A-
Niche defensive Grass typing and Grass and Ghost immunity let this thing SD on a lot of bulky teams with very potent Grass and Ground coverage and great speed tier and longevity to continuously pressure slower bulky teams. Way better than some other SD mons like Pinsir or Zangoose.

A+ S
Serperior can come out on top of so many situations thanks to its speed and bulk, and abuse of Hidden Power, being able to surprise would-be checks with HP Psychic, Ice, or Ground, or sticking with Rock and still hitting most of the tier uncontested. Or you can use SubSeed and beat anything regardless. I've won way too many games just by Subbing up with Serp on a bulky water or a predicted status move and just breaking the whole tier open with only a +1/2 Overgrow-boosted Giga Drain.

Drops

A- B+
This thing needs too much going for it to be worth using as a breaker; minimal hazards chip along with free entry, a free Swords Dance, no Protect spam, and the right 4th move in CC or Night Slash and if all these boxes are checked then Zangoose can be a monster.

A A-
Golem does have very powerful tools with Sturdy SR, potential Custap Boom/trading 1-for-1 after getting SR in general, however as teams can afford to become much more bulky after the STag ban, making a 1-for-1 trade just for SR is not as valuable anymore imo.

A+ A
Not a huge drop but another instance of the metagame bulking up slightly and being able to afford to pivot around CB Sawk a little more. Obviously it still hits like a truck and Sawk will probably bounce back once people discover Sub Sawk is also nutty but for now its just not as good as the other A+ mons imo.

The entire C- tier seems like all meme picks that won't ever see serious tournament use. I haven't played outside of serious tournament use but I think the more vetted players (Bughouse cb aaron judge @ whoever else is goated in this tier) can definitely come together and condense the entirety of the C ranks into one tier.


pls keep in mind I'm relatively new to the tier but I think my purely post-Stag ban perspective of the tier could bring some valuable outside opinions. Also I'm 7-1 in NUSD so I'm not a complete noob :P

 

[Finchinator]

The intent is to update this thread entirely with the help of some recent players of the metagame with a vote in the near future, for what it's worth

 

[5Dots]

Had a lot of fun playing in the BW NU Spotlight tour; here’s my thoughts afterwards!:

C+ -> B-
Sun is actually pretty cool. Wide range of abusers and generally fits how well offense is trending right now. Some things to note are how most Mandibuzzes are physically defensive, which give advantages to abusers like Victreebel and HP Rock Exeggutor, and how all the viable abusers bar exeggutor outspeed Scarf Primeape, which otherwise chip the team repeatedly with u-turn. From my experience, Kangaskhan, while still seen often, isn’t a regular sight to disrupt the archetype, which further gives sun benefits.

B- -> UR
The only notable quality Bastiodon offers is its access to Roar compared to other Stealth Rock setters and maybe Metal Burst, but it’s too prediction reliant to hit Metal Burst and it’s hard to get roar up in such an offensive-based metagame. (Especially) Regirock and even Probopass tend to be better at setting up Stealth Rock, since the former has more utility options with Thunder Wave and Sunny Day, Probopass can pivot with Volt Switch while also having Sturdy, and perhaps most importantly, both can actually damage foes to compensate for their sluggishness. Base 52 Attack is awful, especially since it doesn’t have means to threaten out other stealth Rock setters like Golem or Sawk that can nullify Metal Burst from doing its job.

C- -> UR
Agree with Togkey’s removal of C- rank, there isn’t really a point of using all of these mons since all of them are outclassed by one or more more useful Pokemon.

B+ -> A-
Might be surprising to see considering Garbodor‘s access to Spikes, but Weezing is still serves the role of a physical wall very well, notably able to survive Adamant Choice Band Sawk’s Earthquake before crippling it with Will-o-Wisp, which Garbodor cannot do! Another benefit is that Levitate allows it to perform much better against Stealth Rock setters like Golurk, Piloswine, and Golem, which, unlike Garbodor, gets destroyed by their Ground STABs. Weezing’s access to Taunt makes it more reliable at stopping Alolomola from distributing Wishes and Miltank from using utility moves, something Garbodor wishes it could do.

 

[Meri Berry]

Here's the Viability Rankings Update we've all been waiting for, more drops than rises. No reasoning because I don't know enough about BW, but some others can post their reasoning in the thread for me. Also, we won't do another slate until after NUPL likely, but if there's any consensus about minor tweaks to the VR in the thread or new noms since the slate went up, I can change the VR accordingly. Thank you to all the voters listed below! The sheet can be found here.

Voters for this slate:
Bughouse
cb aaron judge
Finchinator
Lily
Links
Nalorium
Shuckleking87
Togkey

Tiering Changes

Rises:
A+ -> S
A- -> A+
A- -> A+
A- -> A
A- -> A
B+ -> A
B+ -> A-
B -> A-
B -> B+
B- -> B
B- -> B
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C -> C+
C -> C+
C -> C+
C- -> C
C- -> C
C- -> C

Drops:
S -> A+
S -> A
A+ -> A
A+ -> A
A+ -> A
A+ -> B+
A -> A-
A -> A-
A -> A-
A -> B+
A -> B+
A -> UR (shadow tag banned)
A- -> B+
A- -> B+
A- -> B+
A- -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B
B+ -> B-
B+ -> B-
B+ -> B-
B+ -> B-
B+ -> C+
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> B-
B -> C+
B -> C+
B -> C+
B -> C
B -> C
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C+
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C+ -> C-
C+ -> UR
C+ -> UR
C+ -> UR
C+ -> UR
C+ -> UR
C -> C-
C -> C-
C -> C-
C -> UR
C -> UR
C -> UR
C -> UR
C -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR
C- -> UR

 

[laserduck]

What is the reasoning for Charizard, Samurott, and Eelektross falling in the VR? I'm pretty new to the tier

 

[Stories]

What is the reasoning for Charizard, Samurott, and Eelektross falling in the VR? I'm pretty new to the tier

Many changes to the meta have dictated their drops;

Many Charizard checks were often removed from the game or crippled by Shadow Tag Gothorita, such as Alomomola, Regirock, Miltank, and many common Stealth Rock setters like Seismitoad and Golurk. Now that Shadow Tag is banned these Pokemon are much more common / don't have to use Shed Shell / are better in general. Charizard is still very good but the Pokemon in S rank simply are better.

Samurott and Eelektross are in a similar boat of sorts. They are balance killers but balance has gotten much better recently. Samurott and Eelektross also have very middling bulk despite their poor speed, so they are often found throwing out one or two big hits then going down.

All 3 of these Pokemon struggle greatly against Serperior as well, which has risen to be one of BWNU's top Pokemon.

These aren't the only reasons for their drops but I hope that gives you an idea of how the meta is simply different than what it was back when those 3 were considered better than they are now.

 

[laserduck]

Many changes to the meta have dictated their drops;

Many Charizard checks were often removed from the game or crippled by Shadow Tag Gothorita, such as Alomomola, Regirock, Miltank, and many common Stealth Rock setters like Seismitoad and Golurk. Now that Shadow Tag is banned these Pokemon are much more common / don't have to use Shed Shell / are better in general. Charizard is still very good but the Pokemon in S rank simply are better.

Samurott and Eelektross are in a similar boat of sorts. They are balance killers but balance has gotten much better recently. Samurott and Eelektross also have very middling bulk despite their poor speed, so they are often found throwing out one or two big hits then going down.

All 3 of these Pokemon struggle greatly against Serperior as well, which has risen to be one of BWNU's top Pokemon.

These aren't the only reasons for their drops but I hope that gives you an idea of how the meta is simply different than what it was back when those 3 were considered better than they are now.

Thank you for the great response! What makes Serperior one of the top Pokemon?

 

[Expulso]

Thank you for the great response! What makes Serperior one of the top Pokemon?

my 2 cents, togkey or others feel free to add:

- the speed tier is excellent -- pretty much only scarfers and kanga force it out.
- most grass type checks take a lot from the right hidden power (ground/rock) and dont have longevity (outside of mandibuzz); for instance garbodor and skuntank are very quickly overwhelmed.
- its unboosted power is also solid enough, particularly with LO and/or spikes support. finally, it finds a lot of opportunities to come in and start attacking because of how a ground/rock is on almost every team and that many teams also have a water.

offensive grasses in general are really nice, i've been throwing a sawsbuck or serp onto almost every team. great speed, power, and useful defensively to pressure the rocks, grounds, and waters in the tier mean they offer quite a lot

 

[Bughouse]

fwiw I don't think eelektross struggles with serp much at all...

Eelektross has some natural bulk and its spikes immunity normally means it's pretty healthy, so Giga Drain is hardly a huge immediate threat to it, while Eel has Flamethrower or can even just U-Turn out, doing big damage/breaking sub while slow pivoting to a better Serp check.

I think the bigger deal behind Eel dropping is just that the meta became a bit more favorable to the Rotoms/Eel may have just been a touch too high to begin with. It's still very good.

The main changes to the meta I feel have been caused by Goth's departure leading to Alomomola being able to carry Leftovers again, as well as more frequent use of it these days as a special or mixed wall rather than much more of a pure physical wall (in terms of investment, but also Lefties is even more important for this.) This has spiraled in a number of different ways from there, since it is such a consequential Pokemon in the meta.

I'm not going to theorize too hard what all those changes were but I definitely do think Mola being a much better special wall and having Leftovers has been consequential in the worsening of Zard and Rott. Specs Zard/Special LO Rott just don't steamroll Mola anymore. You would think an improvement to Mola would have made Eelektross's strong Tbolt that much more important, but it hasn't panned out that way. It's still very good. Just didn't get better.

 

[Links]

credit to PKGaming and FlareBlitz for the idea; credit to Annoyer and DTC for running the original thread; credit to Keiran for the amazing banner '3'

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Welcome to the NU viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted. After we have came up with a tier list that most people agree upon, it will go on-site somewhere in the NU hub.

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Viability Ranking Council
For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.

• Keiran

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Tier List
Without further ado, here is the initial tier list with the rough definitions of each tier (note: Pokemon are ordered alphabetically).

S-Rank​

​

​

​

Alomomola​

Garbodor​

Mandibuzz​

Serperior​

​

​

A-Rank​

​

​

A+​

Charizard​

Golurk​

Kangaskhan​

Rotom-Frost​

Sawk​

Seismitoad​

Skuntank​

A​

Carracosta​

Duosion​

Gurdurr​

Gardevoir​

Misdreavus​

Piloswine​

Primeape​

Regirock​

Rotom-Fan​

Samurott​

​

A-​

Braviary​

Eelektross​

Haunter​

Musharna​

Sawsbuck​

Tauros​

B-Rank​

​

​

B+​

Camerupt​

Drifblim​

Exeggutor​

Golem​

Gorebyss​

Ludicolo​

Miltank​

Roselia​

Swellow​

Zangoose​

​

B​

Electabuzz​

Fraxure​

Regice​

Tangela​

Torterra​

Wartortle​

Weezing​

Zweilous​

​

B-​

Altaria​

Combusken​

Floatzel​

Kadabra​

Liepard​

Metang​

Muk​

Pinsir​

Probopass​

Scraggy​

Shiftry​

Simipour​

Victreebel​

Vileplume​

Volbeat​

​

C-Rank​

​

​

C+​

Audino​

Bastiodon​

Cacturne​

Cradily​

Golbat​

Klang​

Lapras​

Lickilicky​

Linoone​

Mantine​

Simisage​

Swanna​

Throh​

Ursaring​

Vigoroth​

Zebstrika​

C​

Armaldo​

Articuno​

Basculin​

Beheeyem​

Butterfree​

Dragonair​

Electrode​

Jumpluff​

Leafeon​

Mawile​

Munchlax​

Raichu​

Rampardos​

Sneasel​

Swoobat​

Torkoal​

C-​

Ampharos​

Frillish​

Illumise​

Marowak​

Relicanth​

Simisear​

Stunfisk​

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Rules

• Post intellegently; no one will listen to you if you post random blabber that isn't supported by sufficient evidence.
• Do not insult users just because you disagree with them.
• Usage statistics do not determine viability.

OP has been updated

 

[laserduck]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but what are some good team structures for BW NU?

Sun seems pretty good with powerful sweepers Charizard, Sawsbuck, and maybe other niche options like Victreebel. Some sort of Magic Guard Psyspam with Duosion and Kadabra similar to BW OU may also be good due to how powerful hazards are in BW NU. Not sure how viable these structures are though, would appreciate any guidance. Thanks!

 

[Bughouse]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but what are some good team structures for BW NU?

Sun seems pretty good with powerful sweepers Charizard, Sawsbuck, and maybe other niche options like Victreebel. Some sort of Magic Guard Psyspam with Duosion and Kadabra similar to BW OU may also be good due to how powerful hazards are in BW NU. Not sure how viable these structures are though, would appreciate any guidance. Thanks!

Sun (and Rain) are generally mediocre and matchup fishes in my opinion. Not entirely unviable, but the high viability of Charizard and Sawsbuck has to do with their utility just as team members in and of themselves. Victreebel and Shiftry's much lower viability in B- is indicative of full Sun's viability.

Psyspam (or perhaps better thought of as Dark-weak spam, since these structures often use Haunter or Misdreavus instead) is certainly viable, but the main thing you have to consider on such teams is that Skuntank and Mandibuzz are omnipresent, and Skuntank in particular presents a huge problem. So you have to structure these teams such that 1) one of these Pokemon actually threatens to break Skuntank in some way, and that 2) you can get that one out on the field first, so the second that can't really break Skuntank comes out second only after Skunk's been neutralized. Duosion and Kadabra doesn't quite do this really, since although it's nice that they both have Magic Guard, neither is particularly good at beating Skuntank and Kadabra is close to useless against Mandibuzz. It's more likely to be successful doing this with for example Destiny Bond Haunter (especially with Thunderbolt) as one member of the core, since it seriously threatens Mandibuzz and can trade with Skuntank, leaving the doors open for its teammate.

Probably the easiest archetype to understand is KangaSpikes, but see all sample teams here:
https://www.smogon.com/roa/?format=gen5nu

 

[laserduck]

Have there been any meta shifts in this tier now that NUPL has concluded?

 

[Links]

Have there been any meta shifts in this tier now that NUPL has concluded?

Extremely late reply, but at the time nothing major, we'll likely do another VR/Samples update soon and I'd like to get some analyses done as well but only time will tell how much we'll actually be able to get done. Anything that is done however will be post NUSD, so at least a couple more weeks

 

[Bughouse]

rank Staryu at least C+ bc honestly it's a better spinner than Wartortle or Armaldo. I haven't given Torkoal enough thought lately to say on that one. I've also tried out Tentacool somewhat recently and it's an edge case, but not sure I'd rank it yet.
Clefairy and Natu also need a rank, but not sure where
Bronzor and Drilbur probably deserve one, but less sure on these two.

other thoughts:
Mola is not S anymore. Even with Goth gone, and it being able to run lefties instead of shed shell, the meta has easily adapted to taking advantage of it.
Tauros, Musharna, Carracosta, and Braviary are all probably a touch too high
Swellow and Zangoose are much too high

Zweilous, Shiftry, Combusken, Vileplume, and Cacturne are all too low. For 4/5 of these, see: doing well vs Mola, also Serperior, etc. Combusken goes brrrr sometimes and just cleans teams. Needs to be accounted for on any team that is remotely offensive that you don't get counter swept, also threatening to bulky teams w CMs passed to it.

There's also surely a good handful of things that should be unranked