Metagame BW LC

iss

let's play bw lc!
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I'd like to give some quick thoughts on the metagame after BW LC Cup and LPL. I've played a ton of games with standard-ish teams recently, and I think there are some real shifts that have happened even in the standard balance space.

The rise of Vullaby

At the end of the last VR, we had Vullaby at the top of A- as the 11th best Pokemon. This past LPL, it was the 6th most used Pokemon with a 63% win rate. What changed? Well, we realized that even without a strong Dark-type STAB attack, physical Vullaby was incredibly strong into the metagame. The near-lack of viable Flying-type resists allows it to put on tons of pressure; look at the turn one situation in this game, for example. While the lack of Berry Juice prevents it from truly serving as a catch-all offensive pivot, bulkier Eviolite + Roost sets are a lot more viable in the slower BW metagame. I personally think fast Vullaby is really good, too. Nasty Plot is also always lurking and has to be carefully accounted for.

...and the fall of Porygon

On many of my recent teams, I've found myself filling holes usually plugged by defensive Porygon with physical Vullaby instead. Porygon has suffered for a while from being pressured by Pokemon it theoretically counters: it can't switch into LO Abra or Gastly, and other sets often carry something to beat it (Trick + Black Sludge, Taunt, etc.). Porygon's best matchup is probably Staryu, but it can't win in the long run if it doesn't have Thunderbolt- see this game for a demonstration. Even the Diglett countertrap can be problematic due to Final Gambit. I think Porygon is still a strong threat that every team must have a long-term answer to, but over time the answers have certainly gotten more numerous.

Evolution of defensive (?) Mienfoo

One of the underappreciated aspects of BW over the last two years has been managing Mienfoo in balance mirrors. I think I have picked up a lot of edge from two small things: (1) understanding when to trade Knock Offs, and (2) running slightly more optimal spreads. On the latter point, I spent a long time running 13 Speed, which provides well-rounded 23 / 14 / 14 defenses- allowing for excellent pivoting against the entire metagame. However, the rise of 14 Speed Eviolite Snover (which comes close to a 2HKO with Blizzard) forced some adaption. Over the past few months, I've been exclusively running 15 Speed with 23 / 12 / 14 defenses. The idea is to maintain the same pivoting potential against special attackers like Chinchou, Magnemite, and Staryu (which tend to be the things that Mienfoo is best suited to deal with) while being consistent against all Snover sets. I have found this to be very strong for consistency.

Some others have been trying even more Speed investment, or occasionally Attack investment. This has coincided with the rise of Substitute + Payback Mienfoo, which flips the Gastly matchup around completely. I've found these sets to be interesting, but will let others say more about them. I do wonder where this evolution will end up; I feel that the special threats in BW are strong enough that dropping Special Defense isn't sustainable, but I've been wrong before.

Along these lines, we'll have a VR update soon-ish. Hope to see you all in LCPL!
 

DC

Kpop Main, No Brain
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I've been following BW recently as a way to learn the meta before LCPL, and an interesting development I saw over the course of the LPL season (as well as BW Cup) was the rise of double Water cores, specifically Staryu + Chinchou. I generally saw a rise in traditional balance playstyles and a drop-off in more offensive/HO teams, which has benefitted these types of cores. Staryu has sorta become the catch-all defensive answer to basically every threat in the tier; it just has the innate combination that you want in a great defensive Pokemon: decent bulk, status to annoy multiple different Pokemon, and recovery + ability to remove status to ensure that it wins most 1v1s. I've even seen sets where Rapid Spin (which was one of its central roles in BW prior) gets dropped in favor of another status move (a set like Scald / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Recover). I definitely think that it should be A+ in the new VR. Chinchou's rise is something that aligns with Staryu, as it is one of Staryu's best checks as well as partners. Magnemite really dropped off in this meta (had like a 15% WR in LPL), and Chinchou replaced it as the premier Volt Switch user due it part to its better defensive utility. Having a Water immunity is nice in the tier (and the few Pokemon that can switch into it just gets pivoted on with Volt Switch), and Chinchou facilitates that plus all of the great offensive threats in the tier like Vullaby, Diglett, and Gastbra. It might also warrant a rise in the new VR.
 
I'd like to give some quick thoughts on the metagame after BW LC Cup and LPL. I've played a ton of games with standard-ish teams recently, and I think there are some real shifts that have happened even in the standard balance space.

The rise of Vullaby

At the end of the last VR, we had Vullaby at the top of A- as the 11th best Pokemon. This past LPL, it was the 6th most used Pokemon with a 63% win rate. What changed? Well, we realized that even without a strong Dark-type STAB attack, physical Vullaby was incredibly strong into the metagame. The near-lack of viable Flying-type resists allows it to put on tons of pressure; look at the turn one situation in this game, for example. While the lack of Berry Juice prevents it from truly serving as a catch-all offensive pivot, bulkier Eviolite + Roost sets are a lot more viable in the slower BW metagame. I personally think fast Vullaby is really good, too. Nasty Plot is also always lurking and has to be carefully accounted for.

...and the fall of Porygon

On many of my recent teams, I've found myself filling holes usually plugged by defensive Porygon with physical Vullaby instead. Porygon has suffered for a while from being pressured by Pokemon it theoretically counters: it can't switch into LO Abra or Gastly, and other sets often carry something to beat it (Trick + Black Sludge, Taunt, etc.). Porygon's best matchup is probably Staryu, but it can't win in the long run if it doesn't have Thunderbolt- see this game for a demonstration. Even the Diglett countertrap can be problematic due to Final Gambit. I think Porygon is still a strong threat that every team must have a long-term answer to, but over time the answers have certainly gotten more numerous.

Evolution of defensive (?) Mienfoo

One of the underappreciated aspects of BW over the last two years has been managing Mienfoo in balance mirrors. I think I have picked up a lot of edge from two small things: (1) understanding when to trade Knock Offs, and (2) running slightly more optimal spreads. On the latter point, I spent a long time running 13 Speed, which provides well-rounded 23 / 14 / 14 defenses- allowing for excellent pivoting against the entire metagame. However, the rise of 14 Speed Eviolite Snover (which comes close to a 2HKO with Blizzard) forced some adaption. Over the past few months, I've been exclusively running 15 Speed with 23 / 12 / 14 defenses. The idea is to maintain the same pivoting potential against special attackers like Chinchou, Magnemite, and Staryu (which tend to be the things that Mienfoo is best suited to deal with) while being consistent against all Snover sets. I have found this to be very strong for consistency.

Some others have been trying even more Speed investment, or occasionally Attack investment. This has coincided with the rise of Substitute + Payback Mienfoo, which flips the Gastly matchup around completely. I've found these sets to be interesting, but will let others say more about them. I do wonder where this evolution will end up; I feel that the special threats in BW are strong enough that dropping Special Defense isn't sustainable, but I've been wrong before.

Along these lines, we'll have a VR update soon-ish. Hope to see you all in LCPL!
It is more like a change and not exactly a fall of Porygon, it is so good vs the trending water teams, being a soft check and a pain to the likes of smoochum and snover is also very beneficial

I have some usage of it on vulla teams but more often than not i prefer chinchou for the momentum generation the vullachou teams naturally are good at

Porygon definetilly change and is still the best all purposes special glue a mon you cant really get worse by Just bringing it on the builder
 

Fille

Afk
is a Pre-Contributor
LCPL Champion
So I Did the Thing that I Promised to Do
:mienfoo::vullaby::chinchou::gastly::omanyte::diglett:

I'm just gonna precourse this by saying it's been a while since we had a proper VR update, and there's a few things missing and a few notable changes that really needs to be made, so to begin a new discussion I figured I'd give my 2023 meta takes. I'll first just drop what my VR would look like right now based on how I build and prep, as well as how it feels to play the different mons into current common matchups. I've also made adjustments based on how other notable people builds, and trends I've seen while discussing with other enthusiasts.

:mienfoo::vullaby::larvesta::diglett::ferroseed::natu:

Filles Updated Viability Rankings
Note that there is some inconsistency in orders within ranks; For S and A+ they're in order of viability, for B+ and B I've put the 4 pokemon I wouldn't personally need to go out of my way to include on a team at the top, as I deem them better than the rest of their rank, but moreso from an ease of use and versatility perspective. Bottom of B and top of B- are kind of linked, they should be in different ranks, but just so they're still somewhat together still I've put them at the bottom and top respectively. For C ranks I added the 2 most notable new additions at the top, as I genuinely think they can serve a purpose in the coming few tournaments, considering how the metagame is currently evolving.

S
:mienfoo: Mienfoo
:gastly: Gastly

S-
:abra: Abra

A+
:vullaby: Vullaby
:chinchou: Chinchou
:diglett: Diglett
:snover: Snover

A

:staryu: Staryu
:porygon: Porygon
:drifloon: Drifloon
:ferroseed: Ferroseed

A-
:smoochum: Smoochum
:bronzor: Bronzor
:pawniard: Pawniard
:trapinch: Trapinch
:omanyte: Omanyte
:natu: Natu

B+
:larvesta: Larvesta
:tirtouga: Tirtouga
:archen: Archen
:carvanha: Carvanha
:timburr: Timburr
:clamperl: Clamperl
:drilbur: The Claw


B
:elekid: Elekid
:frillish: Frillish
:ponyta: Ponyta
:tentacool: Tentacool
:aipom: Aipom
:shellder: Shellder
:magnemite: Magnemite
:hippopotas: Hippopotas

B-
:lileep: Lileep
:doduo: Doduo
:cranidos: Cranidos
:foongus:Foongus
:dwebble: Dwebble
:slowpoke: Slowpoke
:wynaut: Wynaut
:budew: Budew
:riolu: Riolu
:croagunk: Croagunk
:cottonee:
Cottonee
:zorua: Zorua


C
:munchlax: Munchlax
:onix: Onix

:magby: Magby
:trubbish: Trubbish
:shelmet: Shelmet
:lickitung: Lickitung
:darumaka: Darumaka
:exeggcute: Exeggcute
:houndour: Houndour
:wingull: Wingull
:larvitar: Larvitar
:stunky: Stunky
:golett: Golett
:taillow: Taillow
:snivy: Snivy
:mantyke: Mantyke
:axew: Axew
:bagon: Bagon
:deino: Deino


So for my thoughts on every individual mon, I'll put a link to the sets I have in mind specifically in the picture of the mon. I'll also try to include some notable team structures and / or matches wherever suited. I'll also go through the list from top to bottom, instead of looking at rises first and then drops etc. Do also note that I attempted to write this up 3 weeks ago, but half of everything I'd written down got deleted, so everything B+ and below might be a bit more sparse than originally intended. Might be for the better though.

:abra::diglett::porygon::vullaby::tirtouga::drifloon:

:gastly:Gastly from A+ to S:

I think this is something most people agree on, so I won't elaborate too much. The defensive sets are as great as ever at breaking down the general checks to Gastly and its companions, while the LO set is still powerful without losing that defensive utility specifically vs Mienfoo. We've also gotten better at utilizing its diverse movepool with a wider variety in moves used on LO Gast and more team specific attacking options on defensive, and Sucker Punch (and Protect even vs common scarfers), just making it even more difficult to handle and generally a mon that sticks around until the endgame. Despite actual solid competition for the slot of offensive ghost in both Drifloon and Frillish, both of which are also terrifying in their own ways, Gastly just keeps finding its way into our teams every single time and still has untried potential with its deep movepool. I'm even taking a liking to Scarf Gastly now, albeit only in the way Corckscrew has been using it so shoutouts to him. Idk I'm just repeating what has been said with every raise, but as I go on building it becomes more apparent to me that Gastly is just that easy to slap on and always benefits the team somehow, either with its defensive profile or for its offensive utility. Rise of SubFoo is a problem, but even then there is the possibility of Torment sets, and the likelihood of Foo getting trapped by say a Dig in the back if Gastly has to fodder.

:abra: Abra from A to S-:

Wide array of coverage options, but doesn't halfkey require Sucker Punch and/or Substitute and LO can actually reliably 2hko even full Spdef Porygon with Psychic into Hp Fighting or double Hp Fighting if 26 hp Pory. The rise of Vullaby in the last few weeks of LPL kinda makes it a bit worse, but even for that it has Shock Wave, Charge Beam and Hidden Power Ice/Elec so it's not a big deal even. Idk it's fast it's strong the main reliable way of dealing with it is faster Diglett Beat Up (And there's even team structures that relies on that interaction happening) or a free turn with Vullaby, and it has the movepool to adapt to virtually any metagame change that comes, as it has recently, despite mediocre usage this LPL fsr. It's strong, it does strong good, and it does strong fast, stronger and faster than any other pokemon without a Choice Scarf or Choice Band. It's also a lot easier to get in now as before you'd generally have to get a free turn or pivot in with Mienfoo as that was the only reliable defensive pivot that didn't bring in something Abra didn't threaten, but now we have both Vullaby and Chinchou as reliable slow pivots and less notably Larvesta (As well as Chou+Larv being solid offensive scarf pivots), so getting it in on a forced switch is easier than ever.

I'm really just echoing what I've been saying for a year or so, but there isn't much new to say, the metagame has changed drastically since back then and it's still a top breaker. It's versatile in the thing it does really well.

:vullaby: Vullaby from A- to A+:

I have been very vocal about this change before, for defensive profile and Nasty Plot reasons, but now even moreso with the rise of offensive Eviolite pivot which I'm ashamed to say I never even considered trying before LilyAC used it in LPL LOL. Since then it's been an integral part of many team structures, and while there's probably some disagreement on what spread should be ran, we all agree it's good. Still checks the same mons that NP did (although Gastly slightly less ngl), but now also pressures walls that could switch in earlier like Pory coming in to twave it. Also functions like Mienfoo and Chinchou does in bringing in offensive threats more easily. It can also replace Porygon as a neccessary backbone vs a multitude of strong special attackers, namely as a switch-in to Ghost and Psychic types, provided there's a good way around Blizzardspam along with it. That way you can get more offensive presence (and Knock support) from your defensive backbone, while more easily bringing in your offensive breakers and sweepers.

Essentially, I think NP is kinda down to A/A- rank again, but the offensive Evio Pivot is A+ as fuck, if not higher.

:chinchou: Chinchou from B+ to A+:

Ye this is an incredibly high jump, but it's become such an integral part of offense builds ever since the Iss brokens was popularized. Personally I'm also a huge fan of the bulky pivot, as it works similarly to how Mienfoo / Vullaby does, but actually baits in mons like Ferroseed and Porygon to chip for your strong special attackers. It can also act as your Elec immunity, meaning Dig/Pinch-less structures can be ran with this thing, whereas otherwise you just hard lose to VoltTurn (And people don't seem to understand how problematic this is idgi?). Chinchou is also a very valuable part of such structures, and can blanket check a plethora of big mons both as a scarfer and as an Eviolite mon, without giving up on its versatility. If you don't prep well for it, you lose to it. That simple. Even fucking Illuminate is a viable option, allowing it to Vswitch down Porygon on its own to put it into Hydro 2hko range for itself. I may be the only one who wants to do that though. Illuminate Toxic Staryu anyone?

Notice how I said Dig/Pinch-less instead of Ground-less? Yeah we'll get to that far down the list.

:snover: Snover from A to A+:

Essentially its defensive profile with Eviolite has proven to be quite useful, and Blizzard + Giga Drain is fairly difficult to switch in on, especially combined with Protect, the fear of status (Freeze or Toxic, even Leech Seed!) and a potential Hidden Power for Steels or Fires. It hardwalls shit like Staryu and is a very welcome switch-in to Chinchou, granted fearing Hidden Power Fire from anything and everything is mildly annoying. Ground resist is also fairly nice, forcing out the likes of Diglett, Trapinch and Drilbur, and its strong Ice STAB threatening out slower Vullaby and Hwave-less Natu, while Giga Drain threatens slower waters like Frillish and Tirtouga as well. Just lowkey has a way to be annoying to every single high-meta mon. Hail chip is also a good asset, idt that's been said but it really is if you play it well.

:porygon: Porygon from A+ to A:

The first drop for me. It was kinda an evil neccessity in previous metagames to blanket so many mons, as well as Trace Arena Trap shenanigans, but Chinchou kinda fucks it a bit nowadays and we have a new backbone option with more offensive pressure in Vullaby, so while Porygon still stays a solid staple option that'll benefit many teams, it's just not as dominant in its role anymore. Fuck, there's even fat structures with neither Vull nor Porygon now, but with Bronzor as a backbone, and Ferroseed is still Ferroseed so there's that as well. There's just too much competition and Porygon does its role really well and has its niches over the other options, but it's harder to justify on every team nowadays. It didn't really get worse, we just got more options.

:drifloon: Drifloon from A- to A:

It's really just a more forceful ghost alternative, that can clean late-game or break well early-game, and can still function as a mid-game Foo check, Good to pair with Gastly, good in its own rights. There's really nothing new to say about it that you don't already know, Flame Orb set is a new thing though and that's cool and kinda does what TrickSludge Gastly does but then is slightly stronger afterwards and bird STAB is nice. I honestly just moved it up to A because I think it's better current meta and easier to put on teams than the A- mons. No actual new-meta benefits or anything really. Even Oran Berry Recycle sets look promising now.

:ferroseed: Ferroseed from A- to A:

Very similar reasoning as to Drifloon, it hasn't really gotten much better, and while it does appreciate the shift in Vull sets and Chinchou being so prominent, it's moreso up because we've gotten better at building Ferro structures I guess and Hyper Offense doesn't have the same chokehold on the meta anymore, eventhough it's still very good but that essentially means Ferro can do shit other than suicide hazards and that's quite valuable. I mean, it uses the extra time to suicide hazards, don't get me wrong, but its defensive profile is actually valuable as a defensive backbone now as an easy in on Staryu/Chinchou/Smashers, as well as some Abra and Gastly ykyk. Spikes is also slightly more valuable rn, as we opt for longer games with Foo/Vull structures rather than the HO fest we had for a while with Ghostspam, Abragast, Iss brokens and Clamperl teams all over.

Idk it's Ferro, Ferro does what it always has and probably always will, and I've spent too much time already talking about it. Gravity is cool though.

:smoochum: Smoochum from ??? to A-:

I think I nominated for B+ / A- last time and people agreed on B / B+, but it never got the actual update so here it is again. I did a long write-up on it last time, and it hasn't stopped doing Smoochum things. It generally appreciates the Vull rise though as 1. helps bring it in and 2. one more defensive staple to hit hard with Blizzard. It's fast, it's strong, and it has proven not to just be a cheese pick, and while it hasn't seen much use in the current edition of LPL, it has remained solid throughout classics. It's the strongest current meta scarfer, is fairly difficult to switch in on if you don't have a Bronzor, and doesn't require much support other than the requirement of an A+ mon on your team.

:bronzor: Bronzor from B to A-:

This is a pretty hot jump, but it is the only steel type with reliable(ish) recovery in a metagame where Psychics, Ghosts and Frostitutes run rampant. It's by no means a hard stop to the three most common ones, as all have access to Knock Off and especially Gastly enjoys running Trick sets, but it's a good in to trade with LO sets, as well as a full stop to most Abra sets as few of them actually run Knock, same for Drifloon. It also hard walls Porygon and Snover, two mons that are otherwise very difficult to switch in on, and giving your Mienfoo some free time to check other mons that it might want to without getting paralyzed or frozen (Or you know, allows Timburr to be ran). Also the easiest way to stop shit like Smoochum, has the actual slots for versatility as you only really require Recycle + Psychic, the rest can be anything team specific from Toxic to SR to CM to even screens or protect or coverage options like Flash Cannon or Earthquake. It's not too difficult to switch in on, but Psychic hits the right stuff hard enough, and CM/Toxic are annoying enough for bulkier mons that could otherwise attempt to wall it back. Not having the option to Toxic it really helps for its longevity, and the typing in Steel for shit I already mentioned and Levitate leaving it walling Diglett/Pinch aka not just intrappable but an actual in on both if needed, as well as being a pokemon that can afford to run Stealth Rock while coming in early and multiple times makes it great for role compression on structures that wants to focus more on other kinds of offensive pressure. Also RestTalk is still viable and honestly is the only viable RestTalk set.

Tl;dr it has a plethora of solid qualities and while it's a very passive mon for the most part, it has the tools neccessary and the moveslots available to role compress many vital slots into one for newer structures that wants to spend less slots on a bulky backbone and hazards and more on the offense. Can also be used for just general good typing and rocks if you want to as well, or even CM wincon ish.

:pawniard: Pawniard from B+ to A-:

Sub+Swords Dance abuses the hell out of shit like Porygon/Ferroseed/Bronzor/Lileep/Snover, and is nice Wincon or breaker on quite a few teams. Steel typing is nice, Dark typing is nice, and it also appreciates the rise in Phys Vull over Heat Wave NP since you kinda threaten out and can SD as a result. Wish I had the replays to show it in action, anyone who's been testing teams with me knows it's terrifying, but I brought it 2 in LPL matches where one I had a safe ish win path and the other one it got high roll crit into 5 hits so it didn't get to do its thing after all. So much for 5 hp Subs lol (I'm still salty as I'm writing this). Substitute is also a great measure for forcing shit to actually attack into you, allowing for a more reliable Sucker Punch. Scarf still good, you can still run a support variant with like SR and Twave and Knock ig but like I'm not a fan for Ferro/Bronzor reasons. See a modern SubPunch set I suppose.

:trapinch: Trapinch from B+ to A-:

Realistically it's one of the two Ground Types you'll consider for your team for defensive Ground presence (Yes, that's including Diglett and excluding Drilbur/Hippopotas and you'll just have to hear me out cause they both have their reasons for not being included, albeit works if neccessary). It's been featured as a major part of one of the best and most adaptable teams of the past year, the Iss Brokens, and structures alike . Trapping is just as good, but it's slot as a Ground type is more in demand now with the huge relevance of Chinchou, and the lower Pory usage helps it not get countertrapped so that's also nice. And for those who feel you can drop into a match without an elec immunity, chall me on PS and without one and I'll show you why it's a requirement for your team to even be considered mediocre. If there's a relevant Vswitcher, you need a good immunity to it.

:omanyte: Omanyte from B+ to A-:

3 reasons: 1. Vullaby rise, and other birds still being relevant. 2. One of, if not the best, offensive hazard setter currently, with all 3 hazards available for more offensive teams or teams that doesn't want their Tspiker to be Tentacool. 3. The only Eviolite smasher that can OHKO Mienfoo.

And it can do all these in 1 single set! Also just a fairly reliable early-game breaker / late-game cleaner, one that can set up on WoW mons which, along with the Foo OHKO, is a huge up vs its biggest competition, Tirtouga. Kinda 4mss tho as you really want all 3 of Hp grass, Hp Fire and Epower along with Surf/Hydro and Smash and preferably a Sub or a hazard depending on set. Also just hazard stacking with Knock is also alright still nothing's really changed there.

:natu: Natu from A+ to A-:

So there's a lot here. IT WAS ranked so high because it was deemed a solid Mienfoo counter that brought good hazard control, nearly deleted Ferroseed from the meta even and with CM was a solid wincon that the standard Toxic/WoW users couldn't just status and outlive. Also Wish a bit later down the road. Now, however, it has struggled with the rise of Vullaby, Chinchou and hail, as well as the general focus on solid Hyper Offenses with GastBra (Some with less emphasis on hazards) that just pummels through Natu. Furthermore, it doesn't really properly counter Mienfoo either, as a U-Turn out is doing ok damage and then there's suddenly a faster Ghost, Dark, Ice or Electric mon in your face and Natu gotta out while chipped. Slowfoo can even tank a Psychic to U-Turn freely into other shit that doesn't wanna tank a Psychic, like Gastly for example, just further exemplifying how Natu just doesn't do one of its core jobs best, and Ferroseed doesn't even have to set hazards to be of use in the current metagame, so shit's back for full strength. Wish still serves other purposes tho, so that's still a very good mon ngl.

I do have faith in new, offensive takes though, since meta is fatter but the fattest shit is not there anymore so there's some viability to midground offensive mons. I'm not too high on Life Orb, but it has seen use and can be quite good in certain match-ups, and I've been messing with Future Sight variations as well as Choice Scarf, which provides it with the speed to contend with other fast Psychic and Ghost types.

:mienfoo::vullaby::gastly::diglett::ferroseed::elekid:

:larvesta: Larvesta from B to B+:

There are definitely changes I want to make to my sets to adjust to current meta, but in general I've always been a pusher of max attack Larvesta because you resist all of Mienfoos stronger moves, and have decent natural bulk (And solid burn potential), so you don't neccesarily need the bulk, hence focusing on strong pivoting and being threatening to switch in on is 100% worth. I also prefer 15 speed or more over bulk, as you outspeed standard Natus and 100% outspeed Evio Snover which in theory you don't need to outspeed, but not tanking a Toxic / random Hp Rock is nice and considering that hail limits Msun healing you don't have the longevity vs Blizzardspam that would be desired. Anyways, Larvesta is the only mon in the entire meta that actually punishes Mienfoo for clicking U-Turn, while being a strong and potent attacker itself and being good against other meta staples like our many steel types, Snover, and having the natural bulk and power to 1v1 a plethora of other big threats. It is also the safest option against the newly popular SubFoo set, further improving its presence in the tier. 15 Defense fast sets can also be considered now for Adamant Vullabys. Offensive Fire is has just been so fucking good for so long now honestly.

Stealth Rocks still are problematic though.

:tirtouga: Tirtouga from B to B+:

See Omanyte, but can't OHKO Mienfoo while holding an Eviolite, and hence isn't as versatile, as well as lacking Spikes and Tspikes. I still prefer it though because it has slightly better bulk, and Solid Rock makes it incredibly difficult to OHKO, even with HJK and the odd HP Grass. Just see Vullaby rising making Rocks even more valuable, as well as Larv being more relevant again and Ponyta/Archen still being relevant anti-meta picks.

Ftr, Splash Plate, Water Gem, Life Orb and Rock Gem are all fun and ok options as well, but less consistent. I wouldn't ladder with them, but I'd def bring to a tour match.

:timburr: Timburr from A+ to B+:

It can't consistently come in and check things the way Mienfoo can. We have too many Mid-level Special attackers like Porygon, Snover, Magnemite, Chinchou and Staryu that Mienfoo can consistently come in on and check, cripple or pivot on with Regenerator, but Timburr just can't do that, it just forces out once and then get's 2HKOd next time. Drain just isn't a reliable enough healing option in Gastly/Drifloon/Frillish/Natu/Larvesta/Vullaby meta, and it's so evident everytime it's brought. It can still 1v1 almost any mon in the tier, but the general team structures now are either so fluid that it's simply not relevant enough of a factor, and even vs HO there's always still gonna be a Gastly or a Drifloon to limit that relevance. You simply can't justify it over Mienfoo anymore bar for very specific builds with mons like Bronzor that doesn't mind sitting on most of these midrange special attackers, and even then Mienfoo is generally just a better option for getting in the stronger, faster mons safely. Despite not working in the same way, Timburr still exists in direct competition with Mienfoo and with how BW is currently evolving, it's just not keeping up. Resurgence of Sand stall teams does, however, work as a slightly redeeming factor for it, and Rock Types being relevant, Especially Smash Omanyte, does mean it's got at least some good mid-game factors going for it over Mienfoo. Strong mon, incredibly strong and threatening when on the field, but hard to justify in the builder, and getting in in general.

:clamperl: Clamperl from A- to B+:

Protect is still kinda forced, so you're sitting in the builder forced to pick between Hidden Power Grass for Chinchou, Hidden Power Fire for Ferroseed or Ice Beam for Lileep. God help you if you face 2 of them at the same time. While it does force some pressure from the back of the team, it doesn't provide any defensive utility like the Oma/Tirt does, hence why it's moving down.

:drilbur: Drilbur from A- to B+:

So on paper it does a lot of good things. 17 Speed, Offensive Ground type with Mold Breaker that can set Stealth Rock even on Natu, and Rapid Spin. In a match though it only gets to do one of these 3 things unfortunately, so it's not nearly the role Compression it promises, and suicide rockers to 5 v 6 in current meta is just not worth it, even on a Hyper Offense. Furthermore, it isn't nearly bulky enough, nor threatening enough, to be an adequate Elec Immunity, just flat dropping to Chinchou Hydro (unless max spdef) or just in general being overly threatened by scald burns. If caught on Vswitch even, there are just so many good switch-ins to Drilbur, that it can't adequately take advantage of said Vswitch unless that's your moment to Spin or SR. Diglett is even frailer, but at the very least it can actually trap on a Vswitch if given the chance, and trap slower Chinchous. I will have it said tho that it is a nice scarfer, and I do like SD sets for Paraspam and other offenses, especially vs Vull/Larv/Ferro/Snover meta, so for those aspects I still think it has B+ Viability, but as a Spinner you don't really deal with any of the Ghosts consistently enough even to be relevant. Spdef is interresting tho.

:elekid: Elekid from ??? to B:

First off let's make it clear; Life Orb Elekid is garbage speedtie fishing. Air Balloon tho. Now Elekid itself isn't immediately threatening against too many things. It is, however, a great tool for chipping a variety of mons while maintaining or regaining momentum, while still being problematic for a couple key mons in the metagame such as Staryu, Abra, Gastly, Diglett, Vullaby, Natu and just a bunch of good waters and flyings. AB also means it's actually never getting trapped, which, while difficult to do with Chinchou, is very much a possibility. The natural speed allows it to still check the fast waters and frailies like a scarf Chinchou would, but without the 5050 chance to get hardtrapped on a Vswitch. Protect also means you can get notable chip on even Fake Out Mienfoo if needed.

:frillish: Frillish from A- to B:

So same as Natu really, it just doesn't cut it as a Mienfoo check anymore, especially not with Stealth Rock meaning it'll take insane chip every time it's coming in on Foo U-Turn. Even when not coming in on Foo Turn, it's naturally slower, meaning Foo still gets to U-Turn regardless. Ferroseed is also more trending, Vull rise doesn't help much and Chinchou is everywhere. Still a good spinblocker though, and Scarf sets are a menace, but they don't have the same defensive utility anymore.

:ponyta: Ponyta from B- to B:

Same as last post. Good anti-meta mon. Sunny Day is also viable vs all the Hail. Just Hail + Steels resurgence helps a lot really.

:tentacool: Tentacool from B+ to B:

Like. Good Tspikes setter, can bait Natu and other shit. Counters Snover pretty hard and can't be broken by Toxic Staryu. Doesn't mind Gastly too much. Has Knock Off. Won't really ever get to spin. Can't really check Mienfoo, and not even Larvesta anymore due to U-Turn into Digletts. Grounded Poison is fairly relevant though. Fun movepool.

:magnemite: Magnemite from A- to B:

Chinchou, Diglett, Trapinch and then Mienfoo + Pory also makes its life hell. Trapping Ferro is nice but it also gives "free spikes" whereas Natu sits on it. Fishy mon, I wanna try Evio though.

:hippopotas:Hippopotas from A to B:

And here's the huge one. It's fat as shit and hence close to impossible to OHKO, and will essentially guarantee you Stealth Rocks up, even vs Natu teams since Crunch has that juicy 20% to drop Defense. However, once it's gotten Rocks up it's just a huge momentum sink, and you don't really deal with any relevant meta mons anymore. Like what the fuck do you do? Can't even check Electrics properly, like yeah Scarf Chinchou locked into Vswitch gotta hard out now but what the fuck do you against whatever comes in? Earthquake is nice but doesn't break anything really, and it has solid coverage options and Toxic but it's only ever on that one good Chinchou catch that you get to use them, and you'll be effectively rendered useless against Drifloon, Natu and Gastly without Crunch, and you can't do shit to Vull without Rtomb or Toxic, and like what do you even do vs Ferro or Snover or Foos? So many good combinations of mons on a team, and you can't punish any of the switches hard enough unless you have the exact right coverage for that specific mon, and even then that's essentially just on the off chance tjhat you catch a Volt Switch from a fucking Water Type. Trapinch and Diglett struggles equally with Chinchou, but the thing is that once they've gotten in on the Chinchou Vswitch (or an Evio one after a kill), they actually remove it. Hippo just sits there and doesn't do anything and Chinchou can freely hop out.

:lileep: Lileep from A- to B-:

Same reason as Hippo really, but actually has more room for coverage as it'll always be paired with Hippo as a rocker (or can free up rocks on Hippo). Regardless, Mienfoo exists, and so many of the mons it is supposed to check are often teched out to beat Special Walls like Porygon, Ferroseed, Bronzor and Vullaby regardless, so they generally have the tools to get through Lileep easily enough. Meanwhile Lileep doesn't have the flexibility in coverage and status that mons like Ferroseed, Vullaby and Porygon do. Like Ferroseed is in the same position ish, but it has double hazards to set and Mienfoo doesn't want to tank a Twave usually, whereas Toxic is less problematic. Alas.

:doduo: Doduo from C to B-:

Birdspam is strong. Doduo is difficult to switch in on. Brave Bird from anything really is. Essentially just a mon that I'd generally be willing to bring a team based around to a tour match.

:budew: Budew from B to B-:

I just genuinely struggle to find a team where you'd rather have this over Ferroseed or Omanyte or even Dwebble. Idfk. Still has the movepool to have a purpose, and some people do swear by it so ig I won't drop it to C.

:cranidos: Cranidos from ??? to B-:

Really just this. The rise of a fatter meta means that strong mid-speed Wallbreakers are more in demand, and Cranidos does that really well. Prior to that match I also brought a hail vs Corckscrew in a testmatch, and he smoked me just the same with that fuck. Don't trust Mister Magnus tho, it's a bad rocker.

:foongus: Foongus from B to B-:

I was gonna drop it to C, BUT regen vs Mienfoo (Especially current SubFoo trends) is valuable, and it is a grounded Poison Type that can threaten things with Stun Spore and has a good typing and bulk for dealing with mons like Staryu and the likes.

:croagunk: Croagunk from C to B-:

Solid typing with Dry Skin current meta, can Substitute up on Staryu, Mienfoo, Ferroseed and still fucks shit like Snover / Porygon somewhat and can threaten mindgames in the same Way Mienfoo does vs like Gastly. Not a great mon still though, and lack of Regen makes it bad at the Substitute + Payback shenanigans. Sucker Makes a bit up for it though.

:cottonee: Cottonee from ??? to B-:

I'm not a fan, but there's been plenty HO squads that relies on the utility it provides to set up its sweepers, and they do seem to work so like Memento encore stuff and it has knock and stun spore and can like tailwind and I wanna try Subseed at some point ngl. Dunno what spreads people run though.

:zorua:Zorua from ??? to B-:

So I've been messing around with it recently and Illusion allows for some incredible gameplay if you're willing too, not only with Nasty Plot but with moves like Pursuit etc. I'm in general a huge fan of the move Pursuit, and Zorua looked like a potent user of the move for just chipping a variety of mons, not neccessarily trapping them. I've messed around with it a fair bit, and with the amount of mons that say Chinchou or Mienfoo just naturally threaten out that otherwise requires minimal chip to be OHKOd by common strong Special Attackers makes it very potent.

:munchlax: Munchlax from ??? to C:

So for this one and the next C-rank mon, honestly with the amount of strong special attackers we have it just feels like it should be good. I think something along the lines of Evio 4 attacks could genuinely be good, but I'm not sure how to EV it yet or any shit like that. Still, it should hold some value in Hail/Abra/Chinchou/Staryu meta.

:onix: Onix from ??? to C:

So it has been viable ish before to like Rock vs Natu ig and Archen existed? As well as being an Elec Immunity. However, with Vullaby being so big now and just in general birds being more common than before it should actually hold an ok place in the meta, and a fast rock type (with potential WA procc) without defeatist issues sounds like a sold deal but idrk how good it'll be just yet. See Vull / Onix relations in SM and mid Swsh tho. I feel like it could be good now, not fantastic, but warrant a slot on some teams. Fire types are also common ish now, this is an actual safe switch-in to standard Scarf/Band Pony, although it does mind Will o Wisp. Same goes for Drifloon.

:drilbur::gastly::mienfoo::porygon::abra::chinchou:


:gastly::vullaby::mienfoo::diglett::chinchou::pawniard:

:staryu::vullaby:
So we've seen a shift this past LPL from the HO meta that we had last year and to a more Balanced and Bulkier metagame, and the big one most people have commented on and noticed; The rise of Eviolite Pivot Vullaby. It allows for a more dynamic way of checking faster special attackers, while being difficult to switch in on due to the combination of Knock and U-Turn both allowing for solid breaking and versatility in crippling / contra keeping momentum, whereas Brave Bird still hits like a plane. There's also been a rise in Staryu usage, as DC said, and after talking some to iss Staryu has been appreciated recently as a good status spreader, with backbone capabilities in Rapid Spin + Recover and Scald just being the great move it is. Like Scald is often such a free move to click, and a burn will likely grant you progress against literally anything, even Porygon due to forcing Recover and a free Foo Switch-in. However, I've personally never found the use for it, and while it's the only good Spinner we have due to its potency to deal with all 3 best ghosts, it still usually dies attempting to spin, while I often want it to do so much more for me. However, people have been opting for dual status over Spin recently, so it seems I'm not the only one thinking the same. Iirc Iss figured Staryu as a top 5 mon in the current metagame, and I can definitely see the consensus for it, but I also dislike relying on 30% Scald Burns to make progress in a few too many Matchups, like vs Ferroseed for example. It's also just Rapid Spin is a bad move. Very good support, but so so bad. Natu is just generally the better option for most teams, denying it completely instead of forcing 5050s with Gastly (That btw still beats Staryu if Eviolite Pain Split unless Psychic Staryu), or hoping Frillish lacks Giga Drain and still being unable to spin until later down the road, crippling other meta staples like Vullabys or Snovers on your team.

:hippopotas:
There's also been a small rise in Sand again, which I think I touched upon enough with my Hippo Lileep post. Essentially, Lileep can be good, but what Iss said about Porygon above still stays true about Lileep, and Lileep just is a further worse momentum loss as it can't really threaten say Mienfoos switching in. Hippo also is just such a bad mon. Again, for reasons mentioned above. Sticking two of these momentum sinks on the same team just doesn't make for a solid structure, even if on paper they can blank certain mons. Now Lileep-less Sand still has a place, but there's still the Hippo issue. Just generally feel unless you're making good use of Sandstorm with your rock types or like Sand Force Diglett, it's just not worth much. Bronzors versatility does, however, actually fits sand very well in my humble opinion, especially when SR isn't required as a slot on it (Or opens up for more versatile Hippo sets), and gives a freepass vs most hail teams and checking Staryu / certain Abras much better than Lileep can.

:mienfoo:
My favourite developement though is Substitute Payback Mienfoo, courtesy of Kodiak_45. I've struggled with HJK misses in my games not gonna lie, and my main issue with it is that there's such a high risk to spamming that, but at the same time the safest way to do it is from behind a substitute. it's just been so big in so many of the games where I brought it, but I've also lost all 3 games I brought it to a High Jump Kick miss so like fuck Mienfoo. It keeps most of the pivoting and checking utility it has though, and while losing Knock Off is annoying, the main things making Foo good still exists while also making it a great wincon. Especially with the fat meta we have right now, being able to substitute on forced switches is such a huge benefit (See Pawniard, Cranidos, Snover and the good old AbraGastly for other solid examples). SubToxic Staryu anyone? I wanna do that.

:chinchou:
Essentially, Mienfoo/Vullaby/Staryu/Gastly/Ground or Chinchou is such a strong base. It's really slow though, but that just something you gotta live with. I also really like Foo/Chinchou/Diglett/Vullaby, leaves you more open to Fights but doesn't straight lose to them, and there's always the option of running Gastly or Drifloon with it. Mienfoo/Larvesta/Natu is also fun to work with , and Larvesta has so much utility going for it when Rocks aren't on the field. Bronzor/Vullaby is also a fantastically fun core, and I love how versatile just the two slots combined ends up working. Ferroseed is also a mon I quite frankly didn't expect to rise back up, but at the same time with everyone being in love with Staryu again it does make a lot of sense. Also we're all tired of Porygon. We've spammed that mon for 2 years straight, it's time to let the duckling rest. Maybe we'll get a Swan in a few months, who knows? Essentially Foo/Ferro/Gastly/Diglett cores allows for easier play around Chinchous without leaving you too weak to hazards, and like if they do bring spikestack, stack the fuck back against them for an even field. Isn't like Staryu is gonna spin away 3 layers of spikes and rocks vs Gastly + Diglett lol.

:munchlax:
I would really like to say though that HO shouldn't be discounted just yet, there's still a solid place for it in the metagame and you can't really go wrong with Life Orb Abra, Life Orb Gastly and a trapper. I've personally really enjoyed Eviolite Chinchou to chip the right stuff and bring in shit like Life Orb Abra for free, and especially Inner Focus Abra with Trapinch or Air Balloon Diglett to get a free kill with Abra then Ctrap the trapping Diglett so that Chinchou can roam free and get in whatever strong mons it wants. Chinchou HO builds in general is just really strong in my opinion, as bar Mienfoo there aren't many good checks to it, and Gastly just takes advantage of so many of them with the right chip or moves.

:snover::smoochum::mienfoo::porygon::diglett::frillish:

Small updated role compendium too, I felt the last one is a bad outdated and this should encompass some of the bigger metagame changes that we've had this past year. Most people probably won't bother looking into it, which is a shame cause I even added trapping, weather and tank roles :(​

Filles Updated Role Compendium
Utility
Entry Hazards:
Spikes::ferroseed::omanyte::dwebble::budew::shelmet:
Stealth Rock::diglett::bronzor::ferroseed::tirtouga::omanyte::drilbur::archen::dwebble::pawniard::hippopotas::lileep::larvitar::golett:
Toxic Spikes::omanyte::tentacool:

Hazard Control:
Magic Bounce:
:natu:
Rapid Spin::staryu::tentacool::drilbur:

Clerics and Wish:
Heal Bell:
:chinchou::lickitung::smoochum:
Wish::natu::lickitung:

Other:
Knock Off:
:mienfoo::vullaby::gastly::drifloon::abra::tentacool::tirtouga: :timburr::pawniard::cottonee::aipom:
Memento::diglett::drifloon::cottonee:
Trick::gastly::abra::smoochum::frillish::drifloon::porygon:

Offensive Roles
Wallbreakers:
Physical:
:mienfoo::archen::pawniard::larvesta::drifloon::ponyta::vullaby::cranidos::timburr::drilbur::aipom::carvanha::doduo::darumaka::taillow:
Special::abra::gastly::smoochum::snover::drifloon::chinchou::staryu::carvanha::magnemite:
Mixed::drifloon::archen: :snover:

Choice Item Users:
Choice Scarf:
:chinchou::smoochum::larvesta::frillish::drilbur::mienfoo::pawniard::ponyta::gastly::magnemite::natu::porygon::vullaby::doduo::snover::diglett::darumaka::axew::bagon::deino::larvitar:
Choice Band: :ponyta::doduo::mienfoo:

Setup Sweepers:
Bulk Up:
:timburr::croagunk::mienfoo:
Calm Mind::natu::bronzor::abra:
Nasty Plot::vullaby::smoochum:
Shell Smash::tirtouga::omanyte::clamperl::shellder::dwebble:
Speed Boost::carvanha:
Swords Dance: :pawniard::mienfoo::drilbur:

Priority:
Aqua Jet:
:tirtouga::carvanha:
Fake Out::mienfoo::aipom:
Ice Shard::snover::shellder:
Mach Punch::timburr:
Prankster::riolu::cottonee:
Sucker Punch::gastly::pawniard::diglett::drifloon::natu::chinchou::croagunk::zorua:
Quick Attack: :trapinch::archen::doduo:
Feint: :trapinch::mienfoo:

Trapping:
Arena Trap:
:diglett::trapinch:
Shadow Tag: :wynaut:
Magnet Pull: :magnemite:
Pursuit: :diglett::pawniard::zorua::doduo::munchlax::cranidos:
Trace: :porygon:

Defensive Roles
Walls:
Physically Defensive:
:gastly::staryu::frillish::slowpoke::hippopotas:
Specially Defensive::porygon::vullaby::lickitung:
Mixed::ferroseed::bronzor::lileep::foongus:
Tanks: :gastly::snover::trapinch::timburr::tirtouga::tentacool::omanyte::drifloon::pawniard::munchlax:

Pivots:
Offensive:
:mienfoo::vullaby::chinchou::larvesta::elekid::archen::natu::magnemite::aipom::darumaka:
Defensive::mienfoo::chinchou::natu::larvesta::slowpoke::vullaby::foongus:

Weather
Magic Guard:
:abra:
Overcoat::vullaby::shelmet:

Sand:
Sand Stream:
:hippopotas:
Rock-types::tirtouga::lileep::omanyte::archen::cranidos::onix:
Sand Force::diglett::drilbur:

Hail:
Snow Warning:
:snover:
Blizzard: :smoochum::snover::porygon:


Cheers to whomever actually read through this entire fucking encyclopedia, if anyone feels like sending me my wordcount that'd be fun. Took me a fucking while to write.

:gastly::omanyte::mienfoo::diglett::chinchou::bronzor:
 
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iss

let's play bw lc!
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
At long last, the promised VR update is here! Huge thanks to Fille, Éric, Kaboom, AlyssaVGC, Tack, ninjadog, starmaster, brewfasa, and Kodiak_45 for contributing.
S
:Mienfoo:Mienfoo

S-
:Gastly:Gastly

A+
:Diglett:Diglett
:Abra:Abra
:Vullaby:Vullaby

A
:Porygon:Porygon
:Chinchou:Chinchou
:Snover:Snover
:Staryu:Staryu
:Drifloon:Drifloon

A-
:Ferroseed:Ferroseed
:Natu:Natu
:Trapinch:Trapinch
:Pawniard:Pawniard
:Omanyte:Omanyte

B+
:Timburr:Timburr
:Smoochum:Smoochum
:Frillish:Frillish
:Carvanha:Carvanha
:Clamperl:Clamperl
:Larvesta:Larvesta
:Magnemite:Magnemite

B
:Bronzor:Bronzor
:Drilbur:Drilbur
:Tirtouga:Tirtouga
:Hippopotas:Hippopotas
:Archen:Archen
:Ponyta:Ponyta
:Lileep:Lileep
:Shellder:Shellder

B-
:Aipom:Aipom
:Tentacool:Tentacool
:Elekid:Elekid
:Dwebble:Dwebble
:Budew:Budew
:Foongus:Foongus
:Cranidos:Cranidos
:Stunky:Stunky

C
:Doduo:Doduo
:Riolu:Riolu
:Zigzagoon:Zigzagoon
:Slowpoke:Slowpoke
:Wynaut:Wynaut
:Magby:Magby
:Houndour:Houndour
:Onix:Onix
:Croagunk:Croagunk
:Trubbish:Trubbish
:Axew:Axew
Here are a couple of fun graphics. The first shows the average rank of each Pokemon, with error bars +/- 1 stdev. The second shows the relative change in ranking from the 2021 VR.

bw_vr.png
bw_vr_diff.png


You can see the raw data here, including each player's full rankings.

The biggest takeaway for me is how much disagreement there is between A and B. While everyone agrees that Mienfoo, Gastly, Diglett, and Abra are very good, there's a huge amount of variance in literally everything below that. Some highlights: Natu was ranked between #9 and #24, Frillish was ranked between #8 and #34, and Drilbur was ranked between #6 and #33. The only other thing players seem to agree on is a massive de-ranking of sand teams, with Hippopotas and Lileep suffering huge declines.

After a period of relative stability, it looks like there's still a lot of juice left in this metagame. Just in this first two games of LCPL this week, we've seen an unranked Pokemon and two C-rank Pokemon. I'm excited to see what people come up with!
 
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To elaborate on my earlier post, here are some of my thoughts of the current metagame:

:diglett: :diglett: :diglett: The Elephant in the Room :diglett: :diglett: :diglett:
I find Diglett to be extremely over-bearing in the BW meta - it's ubiquitous and much stronger than in later generations. If I had to guess, I would put its LCPL usage at #1 overall, between 70-80%. Diglett has a variety of viable moves and items, included but limited to:
Items: Life Orb, Eviolite, Air Balloon, Choice Scarf, Passho Berry
Moves: Beat Up, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, SR, Memento, Final Gambit, Thief

So much has been written about diglett's impact on play patterns and switching over the years. I won't re-hash these arguments... that said, I find that dig-proofing your team is the most important aspect of building in modern BW. And that really sucks - it drastically limits your options. Beyond that, diglett causes some really nasty play patterns that are almost impossible to break - i spent a lot of my lcpl brainstorming ways to avoid losing momentum against mienfoo / gastly / diglett loops. I think this mon contributes greatly to the current inbred nature of the tier - where 2 teams are using 50% or greater selection of the same mons. Where items like Shed Shell are now standard. You can also see this effect on Diglett's own item selection - Air Balloon is a direct response to opposing counter-trappers in Trace Porygon, Trapinch, and of course, Diglett. This mon runs modern BW, and the tier is worse for it.

Predictable Play Patterns (Breaking Parity)
:gastly: swaps into :mienfoo:, :mienfoo: u-turns to :diglett:
one of the most annoying pairings to deal with is mienfoo + diglett. This was the case in all modern gens of LC, and now it's true in BW as well. However - unlike ORAS and beyond, Foo's direct counterplay is severely hampered in BW compared to later gens. There are no fairy types. Sleep is banned (RIP foongus). SR is as good as permanent (RIP flying types). What we end up with is Gastly as the best swap to Mienfoo, with fringe secondary swaps taking the backseat (birds - Floon, Vulla, Wingull; ghost(s) - Frillish; and the occasional bug or poison - Larvesta, Foongus). All of these swaps are flawed in some way, but i'll focus on Gastly for the time being. Gastly boasts 30/30 base HP/Def - this is straight garbage, to put it lightly. Diglett can easily come in on a pivot u-turn, and threaten Beat Up or Pursuit vs non-Evio sets. Even the bulkiest Evio Gastly needs to fear LO-boosted Beatup after one round of SR and a foo u-turn. This is a huge change of pace compared to the Misdreavus meta - 60/60 bulk fares a lot better vs Diglett than 30/30. Additionally, double rush teams provided a strategy that honestly just ignored Foo - FooDig ain't shit in the face of a +2 EQ. Likewise the sleep ban (while ultimately good for the meta) nuked Foongus off the map. All meta shifts favor Foo, and especially favor Diglett.

To counter this, I explored other ways to gain an edge vs Foo - against players dropping rockslide on Diglett, Wingull was an interesting option. It can sub on Foo, and isn't scared by Diglett Beat Up the way other checks are. Likewise - Scarf Larvesta with Morning Sun - it passively punishes Foo u-turns and doesn't fear Diglett coming in unless it's scarf (rare set). Additionally morning sun gives it a bit of longevity if it gets Knocked by Foo. Vullaby also makes the list - while it hates tanking a HJK, a Weak Armor speed boost puts it out of range of non-scarf Dig. Great for pivoting into a uturn or fakeout. However - all three of these mons are SR weak.

And guess who happens to be the most consistent SR user in the tier? That's right - also Diglett. Which brings me to my next talking point:

:natu: Hazards in Current BW :natu:
Traditionally, BW LC has been a tier defined by hazard stack. Spinning is the only way to remove hazards, and the historical spinblockers - Missy, Gastly, Floon, and Frillish - were excellent. That meant if hazards went up, they stayed up. That said, the most consistent way to spin in these old metas was simple - Sand Rush Drilbur, occasionally paired with a secondary spinner (Tenta, Staryu, or even Sandshrew). This gave teams looking to play a more balanced, defensive approach a way to work around hazards.

Flash forward to the present: here enters Natu. Natu is another mon that "has been discovered" since the bannings, and it's a great new option to prevent hazards. Natu benefitted immensely from the downshift in offensive power level from the last LC metagame. Misdreavus and the raw power of double rush sand made it a liability - it was a setup and entry point for the most dangerous mons on those teams. Now -with these offensive powerhouses gone and only 20 BP knockoff-, Natu is much less of a liability to use. This pushed a lot of SR users to the point of unviability - Ferroseed, Hippo, etc... they just cannot get SR against Natu. Throw in mons like Tirt, Dwebble, Pawniard, Omanyte etc which struggle to keep up SR against Staryu, and you'll quickly realize that consistent SR users are quite limited. Here's where Diglett comes in - it just doesn't give any fucks about magic bounce. Just trap a mon that can't switch, and click SR. You've invalidated Natu, just like that. Again, Natu was the original gatekeeper here, but Diglett is ultimately benefits from this meta shift the most. And for what it's worth, U-Turn Natu + Diglett is another strong pairing that can cover even more of Natu's poor SR MUs. Uturning birds... I guess this is my final point for now:

:wingull: :natu: Diglett as an Enabler :Vullaby: :Drifloon:
Flying is one of the best offensive types in BW LC - the mons are good (even banworthy in later gens; see Wingull + z, Vulla in SS, Floon... literally everywhere), the type is great (only 2 resists on the Chart), and the coverage is amazing vs top threats (Foo in particular). Diglett just bolsters their power, as most get U-turn, and almost every Flying resist is grounded AND weak to ground. Chinchou? easy pickings. Magnemite? lol nice try. Pawn? sucker doesnt kill Evio Dig... What you're left with as counterplay are scarfers, and Weak Armor rock-types, neither of which truly have the bulk or longevity required to stand indefinitely against a Vulla, or a Floon. The weak armor rocks can be nice - I brought Kabuto as it sports Aqua Jet to prevent scarf Dig or hardtrap dig shenanigans, plus added utility of Knock Off and Rapid Spin. Omanyte is nice too, although struggles (again) with making progress. And Onix unfortunately is terribad... Chou is the mon I see used most as an electric resist, and it is a 50/50 rage-inducing machine. Is it water absorb? Is it volt absorb? Can my trace pory block it? Do i hard diglett on an electric move? And as a scarfer, it's terribly predictable - it HAS to click icebeam or hydro if there's a Dig still in the back. These aren't the only mons that benefit offensively from a Diglett pairing, but they're certainly the easiest to notice given their access to U-turn and raw power level.


Long story short - I would like to see action taken against Diglett in BW. As far as I'm concerned, it's the best mon in bw, it's the most centralizing mon in bw, and its trapping abilities just exacerbate unhealthy play patterns. It needs to go.
 
BW LC has been consistently meddled with post gen in an effort to appeal to newer generations of players. Initially this was to correct the in hindsight short-sighted decision by Blarajan to freeze the tier for the last year or so in preparation for XY. Scraggy, Murkrow and Misdreavus were the Pokemon the community set their sights on. Former two ended up banned in this first wave of changes, justifably so. Come gen 7, Sand Rush and Misdreavus (maybe third times the charm?) are on the table, with Misdreavus the lone one to survive votes again. Gen 8 we have even more changes, with Sleep Moves and Misdreavus going. For the past 4 years this has been BW LC. Sand Veil also got banned amidst some of these changes, but who really cares its not something that should exist in perma weather gens.

Now why did I go through a brief history of the post-cg tiering decisions? Because I would like to highlight how any concept of preserving a tier as it was CG has gone out the door. 5 years ago you were playing a totally different meta, let alone 10. Isolating the old player base, or acting on a tier that for a long time had barely any representation to develop are diff topics I don't seek to cover here. This discussion focuses solely on what current players want.

Currently, BW LC has pretty decent representation in tours, LCPL, LC Classic, LCWC, BWPL, and LPL (biannual LC focused discord team tour). So with a few weeks before the next iteration of LC Classic, I'd like to address the current state of the meta and where the playerbase wants to take it. zf after last LCPL shared his thoughts on the tier, and so far beyond a few disjointed discord conversations between some of the BWers, nothing has came of it. Whatever the majority of us want the tier to be it can become (within reason), and a lackadaisical approach to a tier that could very easily suffer from loss of playerbase again needs to be proactive to address concerns.

The way I see it, we have 4 routes:
1. Suspect Diglett
2. Suspect something else
3. Retest Misdreavus
4. Do nothing
Do nothing is self explanatory. Right now I'd be voting dnb on Diglett if we went with the suspect route, but if others view it necessary to have a vote on the Pokemon I'd never be opposed to it. For suspecting a Pokemon other than Diglett, lets ideally tackle that after some agreement over Diglett if it gets to that point. Misdreavus is a cold topic, as a lot of the newer BW Players would not have had an opportunity to play with this Pokemon, but it took 3 votes over 5 years to finally put it down.

I will now share solely my own opinions on the tier. An explanation of Diglett for those not experienced in BW LC will be there as well for people just reading.

Note: I've only been back playing BW LC for around a year and I previously refused to play post-missy so I can't speak on the 3 years prior.
The tier is really really aggressive, the offensive tools are just a cut above the defensive options. Flying Gem Pokemon such as Archen or Drifloon (the latter having Unburden to top out at 32 Speed, basically untouchable by the rest of the tier in that regard), Shell Smashers such as Tirtouga and Omanyte, demonically strong Special Attackers in Gastly and Abra. Gastly specifically stands out above all as the clear best Pokemon in the tier IMO, so many sets, Scarf out speeds Tirtouga and Modest Omanyte, Evio Wisp has barely any consistent switch ins and you simply have to throw bodies at it, LO with the right coverage can almost guarantee a 1 for 1. Flame Orb and Black Sludge trick sets for teams w/o much Knock Off support are also capable of just being exceedingly frustrating, without relying on some of the previously mentioned Pokemon to clutch out games. Omanyte is less dynamic than Gastly, but has all the coverage flexibility to hit anything a team can't handle for it. A 2nd set function as a hazard spreader w/ weak armor to set up Rocks and Spikes/Tspikes hyper consistently, threatening the best anti-hazard measure in Natu with Hydro, or using Knock Off on Rapid Spin Staryu before going to a Ghost type to spin block. Can't forget the perma weather chip from Hippopotas or Snover, the latter being no slouch Offensively either.

Now for the Defensive Pokemon. Ferroseed is the best glue in the tier at handling a majority of offensive nonsense, but its extremely vulnerable to people just slapping HP fire on their Porygon or Staryu and clearing the way for a threat. Porygon is extremely passive and abuse-able when its not able to take advantage of thunder-wave to its fullest. has a bit of a 4mss with its coverage and gets overwhelmed by Sludge Bomb poison from Gastly or LO Abra with basically any chip. Mienfoo is the mascot for of LC, and this gen it might be the weakest it ever has been, pre-buff Knock Off means its reliant on Payback to blow past the faster Natu and Gastly, and basically never breaking a Frillish on its own. This is arguable, but I believe Timburr is the better Fighting type atm due to Mach Punch and Guts improving its MU against the smashers and Gastly/Frillish. Priority in general is a massive deal on Defensive Pokemon, Chinchou regularly runs Sucker Punch just to break Diglett subs or finish off a weakened Gastly. Pawniard is mainly Evio over Scarf due to sucker punch being more valuable than Pursuit trapping. Notice how a lot of these Defensive Pokemon mentioned are Special attackers or vulnerable to Psychics? Natu is a big deal too, often when going for more bulky offense type structures if you aren't able to run a Pawniard or Vullaby, your options to cover a Calm Mind Natu are limited outside of preserving your Diglett or LO Gastly to the late-game. It also does the obvious Magic Bounce things of pressuring teams from ever clicking Rocks, a massive deal in a tier with few options for removal.

Given this imbalance I feel like something has to go, and a Diglett suspect is a fair route to suggest (Not in favor of a ban atm). Its an easy target to hate , coming in off of pivot moves from the likes of Vullaby, Mienfoo, and Natu and opening the flood gates for so many of the oppressive offensive threats I've mentioned above. Bulky balance traditionally has a place in the tier, and I've never felt like its as bad as it is now. Where you'd see Lileep Hippo doing sand stall type things, instead Omanyte is using Shell Smash under Sand to ignore special attacks lacking Eball. Diglett final gambiting an extremely healthy Pokemon with no counterplay once brought in to free up a brutal sweep from an Archen or Drifloon. Diglett leaving has potential to increase diversity as well, softening concerns with teams comps being samey to a degree.


Diglett is up there with Gastly as the best Pokemon in the tier, the fastest unboosted speed tier, Arena Trap and access to basically everything it wants between EdgeSlide coverage, SR, Beat Up, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Memento, Gambit. Ghosts not being immune to trapping this gen means the grounded Ghost-types such as Frillish are vulnerable to it. LO nukes a lot of the tier when tied with Knock Off support from Mienfoo or Vull and relatively pain free pivoting into it. Air Balloon counter-traps opposing non-ab and has largely mandated your own Air Balloon Diglett if you want to avoid that ever present interaction. Choice Scarf allows it to outspeed all the Shell Smashers, deleting them outside of Aqua Jet Tirt, Evio can switch into even LO Abra Psychic with proper EVs and consistently trap it. Very flexible, can be tailor-made for any team.

Digletts most egregious interactions in the tier come from Voltturn (largely u-turn), Natu, Vullaby, Mienfoo pivoting into it are brutal lines that you're forced to handle in the team builder because in-game the counter-play is sub par. Pure aggression and trading off Pokemon whenever Diglett goes for a trap is more consistent than trying to play defensively against it.

Where Diglett suffers is that without LO its not particularly strong, and all of its item choices have very clear weaknesses, as well as 4mss. Teams can exploit Digletts not running Rock Slide with aggressive positioning of Drifloon, Vullaby, non-ab with your own ab dig or Porygon. If you ever drop Beat Up you're fodder to Eviolite Wisp Gastly, one of the most common sets of the best Pokemon in the tier. Its also not the most consistent at trapping threats such as Chinchou or Magnemite, whether its outplaying or largely weighted 50/50s is up to you/circumstances of the game it occurs in.


Would really appreciate if ya'll would share your thoughts on the meta, and any desired course of action followed by reasoning. I would hate to see this tier stagnate again like it has in the past. This is not a direct call for a diglett suspect like I initially planned the post to be, as I am not pro-diglett ban, but its more of a call for people to be vocal. Whether its any of the four options, even if you want to call this post unneeded I'd like that more than silence.

Originally wrote this as a post in PR due to some confusion over where it'd belong so ignore some of the phrasing.
sm1s gonna ping the relevant people for me later because its over 15.
Also let us know in the LC discord if you want to help with BW QC/analyses in any capacity, we need to update some sets and analyses.
 
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Star

is a Tournament Directoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Past SPL Championis the defending RU Circuit Championis a Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OGC & Tour Head
I certainly wouldn’t touch the tier. I think it’s very overstated to act like diglett is some oppressive behemoth. Obviously it’s very good but there are plenty of options to build around it (balloon or scarf dig or trace pory or trapinch or shed shell).

Apart from Mienfoo dominating (like it does in literally every LC tier anyway so who cares) I think there is plenty of diversity in this tier and I had fun and success with a lot of different team styles in last years cup. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a tier being “aggressive” or offense being better than defense. If anything it’s a refreshing change of pace and it’s really not hard to adapt and build/play accordingly.

Generally I feel like people are often too eager to touch old gens that don’t need to be touched and would be a shame to fuck with the current state of this tier imo.
 

fatty

is a Tiering Contributor
NUPL Champion
Whole heartedly agree with Star. BW is in the best state it has ever been in and I can’t point to any single thing that I would consider ban worthy at this point. Both Mienfoo and Diglett are weaker in terms of effectiveness than any other gen and are actually vital to the health of the metagame as a whole imo. I also think it’s kind of disingenuous to talk about potentially oppressive mons and then bring up retesting Misdreavus in the same breath, something that would undoubtedly oppress the meta even more. It just seems like testing to force change for the sake of it. Right now I believe we have the flexibility in team building to have a reasonable answer to almost every threat and I wouldn’t mess with anything. Sure, some playstyles and mons are stronger than others, but that’s just the nature of the game. LC especially is known for being offensively forward and I can’t think of a single generation where there are true defensive stalwarts. If anything, with nerfed knock along with mons such as porygon, Ferro, mienfoo, and frillish, I think BW is actually on the higher end of the spectrum in terms of having appropriate counter play for things.
 
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