Looking back at my best Subway teams so far (PKHeX'd, you know it):
JetSawk (291 wins)
Scrafty Triangle (636)
Jump WhimsiTran (325)
And the new contender...
Double Genie Quadrangle (336)
Landorus-T @ Choice Scarf, 252 Atk / enough Spe for 134 stat / rest HP, Adamant, Intimidate; Earthquake / Rock Slide / Fly / U-turn
Thundurus @ Life Orb, 252 SpA / Spe, Timid, Prankster; Thunderbolt / Grass Knot / HP Ice / Protect
Vaporeon @ Sitrus Berry, 252 Def / SpA, Modest, Water Absorb; Scald / Ice Beam / Helping Hand / Protect
Scizor @ Steel Gem, 252 HP / Atk, Adamant, Technician; Bullet Punch / Bug Bite / Swords Dance / Protect
Hey look it's Vappers!! Super cute!!
I remember that turskain called it "an interesting choice" back when I was just starting my Subway adventure and had no idea what I was doing. Now it's finally vindicated.
Backstory: I tried the Gengar team from my last post again but lost very quickly (double RS miss lol) and wondered whether a different structure might work better. JetSawk proved the integrity of the Steel + Water backline with a Scarfer + LOer in front; the Scrafty team showed how good Landorus + Electric upfront with a backline Water-type can be. Do we really need the Water to float? It's usually switching in for Landorus anyway. The frontliner must float, though -- and Thundurus is an easy choice; not only does it provide Grass Knot over Zapdos, but also the coveted 111 Speed tier. What does it matter that my leads are both Blizzard-weak, Froslass -- and by extension most anything else -- won't ever get to attack, and things like Vaporeon or Lapras, which formerly mandated slow play with a Rotom switch, now just get KO'd by U-turn + TBolt too. (Do not ask about Quick Claw Glaceon. It's only on certain trainers since it's set1, but both Ice Workers and Nursery Aides, the latter of which I've learned to respect, use it and it's horrible. But more in a minute.)
Settling on a Water-type was tougher -- gen5 does not lack competition. Obviously it needs to attack with Scald and wield Sitrus Berry, or we could just have Lum Rotom-W again (Electric-type is "pure profit" for it -- there are no downsides at all). Suicune should always be the first consideration -- it's reasonably fast, takes over games with Calm Mind, but also has enough power and bulk off the bat to 2HKO the natural prey of Water-types and live through it. Everything else is measured by its distance to Cune: Milotic has Recover and Haze, but low Defense unless it invests to the detriment of its SpA. Blastoise has Fake Out, but less of everything else (Water Spout is obviously not an argument on TW-less teams). Empoleon dies to EQ -- no thanks (Empoleon is cool on other teams, though; see note at the end). Gastrodon has a great ability for Landorus support and offers more Electric insurance (note how weak the team is to Electric when Lando dies), but is Ice-neutral -- too risky. Politoed powers up opposing Waters and Rain trainers in particular -- really bad (I would have lost at least one particular endgame to Kingdra with Politoed). Starmie is fast, but frail and still kind of weak for the bulk tradeoff. Which leaves us with Vaporeon. It might not seem to do anything special, but it has everything a good Water needs: it is bulky enough to excellently exploit Sitrus Berry while also taking <50% from Lando's EQ (important because it should not die to a crit), hits for more than anything else, and offers "priority" in Helping Hand that leeches off the effective speed and power of its partner. Since the team around Vap is all speedy offense, this is a great fit -- it most commonly boosts Bullet Punch, but sealing endgames can occur with anything next to it.
The choice of Steel is pretty self-explanatory: Scizor kills Ice better than any other Steel except maybe Metagross, which would be weak to EQ. Lum would sometimes be nice to have, but I prefer Steel Gem for versatility (and the HH combo). Freeze to Scizor is usually not the end of the world, either, since it at least stops Ices defensively as well and Vap gets time to soften them up with Scald. The team's "Rock resist" is thus Intimidate, but you can manage; Rock coverage is usually on Grounds and Rocks, which don't get much chance to even fire their attacks, and something like Ampharos Power Gem is pretty much moot because it could just blast the team with Electric moves anyway.
Blizzard is actually still pretty bad. Vap's hour to shine came when it defeated Flareon + Quick Claw Glaceon from a Nursery Aide, Mirror Coat notwithstanding, in a 1-2 situation (which was 3-2 before EXTREME KILLER GLACEON toggled, obviously). Then Battle #300 was vs. a Janitor packing Abomasnow / Absol / Articuno / Empoleon, Swagger plus triple Blizzard (I U-turned T1 for fear of a Fly miss, which might have been overcautious). I barely got out alive and probably only because Thundurus did not hit itself on a crucial turn. If the Eruption Entei / Typhlosion ever crits Lando T1, there is most likely trouble as well.
The loss occurred to Garchomp / Archeops / Haxorus / Salamence (Biker). Garchomp was Scarfed and killed Lando with crit Outrage. Haxorus came in for the KO'd Archeops, and I had no chance against double Outrage spam unless I had gotten lucky with targeting. (Garchomp didn't hit itself and immediately snapped out of confusion right afterwards, Haxorus had Persim Berry).
Anyhow, there you have 300 with Scarf Lando-T -- it can be done, as I had assumed previously. Maybe not with Rotom ;)
tldr: This is my legacy: Water good, Electric/Ground good, priority good, balance good.
PS. I also tried Froslass (with backline Empoleon + Latios, and Scarf Lando-Incarnate -- still with U-turn, though), mostly for curiosity about how much work Destiny Bond does for the Gengar team. It did roughly as well as Froslass will ever do (169 wins). As mentioned, Empoleon is pretty cool, compressing the Water/Steel backline into a single slot, taking SE only from what Lando resists/is immune to, and bashing Ices with Flash Cannon (don't use IB, Scald/Grass Knot/Flash Cannon is best). The loss occurred to a legendary trainer with triple genies and DMeteor Latias -- just too much outspeeding going on (for added fatality, my Latios had 30 Spe IV HP Fire) and Empo being dead to Thundurus TBolt in the endgame.
PPS. I think Sableye is a cool suggestion in a vacuum but unfortunately doesn't seem like the choice for Lando -- takes too much damage from EQ (unless Air Balloon lol -- I guess it could get away with that) and Gravity isn't so great either (you don't want to take away your own team's crucial immunities), if anything I'd use it for FO, priority Leer and guaranteed Froslass dunking with Sucker Punch + Lando's attack. Add Recover in slot 4 (Prankster Recover so good). Still pretty passive, unfortunately -- same reason why I don't like to use things like Alomomola.
JetSawk (291 wins) Scrafty Triangle (636) Jump WhimsiTran (325)And the new contender...
Double Genie Quadrangle (336)Landorus-T @ Choice Scarf, 252 Atk / enough Spe for 134 stat / rest HP, Adamant, Intimidate; Earthquake / Rock Slide / Fly / U-turn
Thundurus @ Life Orb, 252 SpA / Spe, Timid, Prankster; Thunderbolt / Grass Knot / HP Ice / Protect
Vaporeon @ Sitrus Berry, 252 Def / SpA, Modest, Water Absorb; Scald / Ice Beam / Helping Hand / Protect
Scizor @ Steel Gem, 252 HP / Atk, Adamant, Technician; Bullet Punch / Bug Bite / Swords Dance / Protect
Hey look it's Vappers!! Super cute!!
I remember that turskain called it "an interesting choice" back when I was just starting my Subway adventure and had no idea what I was doing. Now it's finally vindicated.
Backstory: I tried the Gengar team from my last post again but lost very quickly (double RS miss lol) and wondered whether a different structure might work better. JetSawk proved the integrity of the Steel + Water backline with a Scarfer + LOer in front; the Scrafty team showed how good Landorus + Electric upfront with a backline Water-type can be. Do we really need the Water to float? It's usually switching in for Landorus anyway. The frontliner must float, though -- and Thundurus is an easy choice; not only does it provide Grass Knot over Zapdos, but also the coveted 111 Speed tier. What does it matter that my leads are both Blizzard-weak, Froslass -- and by extension most anything else -- won't ever get to attack, and things like Vaporeon or Lapras, which formerly mandated slow play with a Rotom switch, now just get KO'd by U-turn + TBolt too. (Do not ask about Quick Claw Glaceon. It's only on certain trainers since it's set1, but both Ice Workers and Nursery Aides, the latter of which I've learned to respect, use it and it's horrible. But more in a minute.)
Settling on a Water-type was tougher -- gen5 does not lack competition. Obviously it needs to attack with Scald and wield Sitrus Berry, or we could just have Lum Rotom-W again (Electric-type is "pure profit" for it -- there are no downsides at all). Suicune should always be the first consideration -- it's reasonably fast, takes over games with Calm Mind, but also has enough power and bulk off the bat to 2HKO the natural prey of Water-types and live through it. Everything else is measured by its distance to Cune: Milotic has Recover and Haze, but low Defense unless it invests to the detriment of its SpA. Blastoise has Fake Out, but less of everything else (Water Spout is obviously not an argument on TW-less teams). Empoleon dies to EQ -- no thanks (Empoleon is cool on other teams, though; see note at the end). Gastrodon has a great ability for Landorus support and offers more Electric insurance (note how weak the team is to Electric when Lando dies), but is Ice-neutral -- too risky. Politoed powers up opposing Waters and Rain trainers in particular -- really bad (I would have lost at least one particular endgame to Kingdra with Politoed). Starmie is fast, but frail and still kind of weak for the bulk tradeoff. Which leaves us with Vaporeon. It might not seem to do anything special, but it has everything a good Water needs: it is bulky enough to excellently exploit Sitrus Berry while also taking <50% from Lando's EQ (important because it should not die to a crit), hits for more than anything else, and offers "priority" in Helping Hand that leeches off the effective speed and power of its partner. Since the team around Vap is all speedy offense, this is a great fit -- it most commonly boosts Bullet Punch, but sealing endgames can occur with anything next to it.
The choice of Steel is pretty self-explanatory: Scizor kills Ice better than any other Steel except maybe Metagross, which would be weak to EQ. Lum would sometimes be nice to have, but I prefer Steel Gem for versatility (and the HH combo). Freeze to Scizor is usually not the end of the world, either, since it at least stops Ices defensively as well and Vap gets time to soften them up with Scald. The team's "Rock resist" is thus Intimidate, but you can manage; Rock coverage is usually on Grounds and Rocks, which don't get much chance to even fire their attacks, and something like Ampharos Power Gem is pretty much moot because it could just blast the team with Electric moves anyway.
Blizzard is actually still pretty bad. Vap's hour to shine came when it defeated Flareon + Quick Claw Glaceon from a Nursery Aide, Mirror Coat notwithstanding, in a 1-2 situation (which was 3-2 before EXTREME KILLER GLACEON toggled, obviously). Then Battle #300 was vs. a Janitor packing Abomasnow / Absol / Articuno / Empoleon, Swagger plus triple Blizzard (I U-turned T1 for fear of a Fly miss, which might have been overcautious). I barely got out alive and probably only because Thundurus did not hit itself on a crucial turn. If the Eruption Entei / Typhlosion ever crits Lando T1, there is most likely trouble as well.
The loss occurred to Garchomp / Archeops / Haxorus / Salamence (Biker). Garchomp was Scarfed and killed Lando with crit Outrage. Haxorus came in for the KO'd Archeops, and I had no chance against double Outrage spam unless I had gotten lucky with targeting. (Garchomp didn't hit itself and immediately snapped out of confusion right afterwards, Haxorus had Persim Berry).
Anyhow, there you have 300 with Scarf Lando-T -- it can be done, as I had assumed previously. Maybe not with Rotom ;)
tldr: This is my legacy: Water good, Electric/Ground good, priority good, balance good.
PS. I also tried Froslass (with backline Empoleon + Latios, and Scarf Lando-Incarnate -- still with U-turn, though), mostly for curiosity about how much work Destiny Bond does for the Gengar team. It did roughly as well as Froslass will ever do (169 wins). As mentioned, Empoleon is pretty cool, compressing the Water/Steel backline into a single slot, taking SE only from what Lando resists/is immune to, and bashing Ices with Flash Cannon (don't use IB, Scald/Grass Knot/Flash Cannon is best). The loss occurred to a legendary trainer with triple genies and DMeteor Latias -- just too much outspeeding going on (for added fatality, my Latios had 30 Spe IV HP Fire) and Empo being dead to Thundurus TBolt in the endgame.
PPS. I think Sableye is a cool suggestion in a vacuum but unfortunately doesn't seem like the choice for Lando -- takes too much damage from EQ (unless Air Balloon lol -- I guess it could get away with that) and Gravity isn't so great either (you don't want to take away your own team's crucial immunities), if anything I'd use it for FO, priority Leer and guaranteed Froslass dunking with Sucker Punch + Lando's attack. Add Recover in slot 4 (Prankster Recover so good). Still pretty passive, unfortunately -- same reason why I don't like to use things like Alomomola.
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