Metagame BDSP Pure Hackmons

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Daylight

angels roll their eyes
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Hello!

I’m posting here because I wanted to talk about the past issues with Sword and Shield Pure Hackmons, their more far-reaching consequences, as well as a possible solution to these issues. As the current Gen 8 Hackmons hub, this thread seemed like the best place to do it. Thank you to Anubis and Lego for your insight regarding this topic.

As I’m sure everyone reading this is aware, Sword and Shield Hackmons is currently defunct because of issues including HP Editing, the Dynamax Exploit, and Eternamax that rendered the metagame essentially unplayable.

Pure Hackmons is currently defined as a metagame where you can use anything that can be hacked into the game and used in local battles. And going by this definition, Eternamax and a Pikachu with an HP stat of 65,536 should indeed be legal in PH because they can be hacked into the game and played with in local battles. However, not all hacks are created equal and to understand this better, you have to understand these different kinds of hacks to the game, and what you can accomplish with each kind of hack.

There are a variety categories of hacks possible, but to summarize a few: ROM hacking is editing the program of the game itself, RAM hacking is editing the running data of the game, Save File editing is probably what most people are familiar with when they think “hacks” (think PKHeX), and then there are patches and cheat codes.

HP Editing and Eternamax, the two main things that killed Sword and Shield Hackmons, are only possible with RAM hacking—edits to the running data of the game. (And ROM hacking in the case of Eternamax.) The issue here is that those two things just scratch the surface of what RAM hacks are capable of. For example, RAM hacks can be used to make it so your moves always crit or to make your ice beams always freeze. Take a look at this video (courtesy of Anubis)—and note that this isn’t just a local battle, it’s an online battle.

The essence of this is: if you choose to allow Eternamax, HP Editing, and the Dynamax exploit, then you also need to allow for such things as manipulation of the battle rng because they are categorically the same.

I say this not to kick the dead horse that is Sword and Shield Pure Hackmons, but to point out a deficiency in the way PH is currently defined. You can apply a cheat to your game that makes it so your moves always crit or your scalds always burn and use them in a local battle—that is something you can “hack in game” and “use in local battles.”

Obviously, things like HP Editing and the manipulation of the the battle rng render any format unplayable. And because of the way PH is currently defined, this is an issue that both exists in past generations and will continue to exist in future generations. It’s arguably even worse in past generations, where the host of a local battle can force their manipulated rng on the guest. Something needs to be changed.

One possible solution to this is to more clearly specify what kind of hacks, categorically speaking, Hackmons encompasses.

For example, we could specify that Hackmons refers only to hacks that don’t modify the program of the game itself (ROM hacks, patches, etc.) and that persist upon reboot and healing (which would exclude RAM hacks) and, of course, that are able to be played with in a local battle (so things like generation 6’s EV limit would remain). Rebooting the game flushes anything stored only in RAM and healing flushes transient party stats. With those stipulations, the hacks that persist are ones that are in the spirit of PH such as moveset and ability edits to individual Pokemon.

It could look something like this:

“Anything that can be hacked in-game, persists upon reboot and healing, and is usable in local battles is allowed, with no bans or clauses. The program of the game itself is unmodified. In other words, all existing Pokémon can use any move and any ability as long as it can be used in local matches against other players!”

What this proposed definition of PH means for Gen 8:

In short, were the new definition or a similar solution to this adopted, Sword and Shield Hackmons might actually be playable. Eternamax is only injectable through edits to the running data of the game or through ROM hacking and does not persist upon reboot and healing. Same for HP Editing and the Dynamax Exploit. Other battle-only forms hacked into the game like Zacian-Crowned and Cramorant-Gorging also do not persist upon reboot. And that’s basically it.

What this means for Gen 6 and 7 PH:
Very little to nothing would actually change for generation 6 PH as unlike the battle-only forms in generation 8, Megas and Primals hacked into the game do persist upon reboot. Similarly, for generation 7, Crystal Free Z-moves (CFZs) hacked into your Pokemon’s movesets also persist upon reboot.

What this could mean for future generations:
One benefit of adopting this or a similar solution is that it creates a consistent litmus test for what’s permitted in PH.
Say a new exploit is discovered. You then ask "Is it still there if you save, reboot the game, and heal your party ingame?"
If yes -> consider it to be added.
If no -> not eligible.

As a final aside, it’s worth noting that should this or a similar solution be adopted, nothing new needs to be added to make Sword and Shield Hackmons playable, so it shouldn’t be heavy on developer time.

However, regardless of whether or not SwSh Hackmons will be revived or not, some rework of PH’s definition needs to happen for the continued playability of both past and future generations of Hackmons.
 
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Hello!

I’m posting here because I wanted to talk about the past issues with Sword and Shield Pure Hackmons, their more far-reaching consequences, as well as a possible solution to these issues. As the current Gen 8 Hackmons hub, this thread seemed like the best place to do it. Thank you to Anubis and Lego for your insight regarding this topic.

As I’m sure everyone reading this is aware, Sword and Shield Hackmons is currently defunct because of issues including HP Editing, the Dynamax Exploit, and Eternamax that rendered the metagame essentially unplayable.

Pure Hackmons is currently defined as a metagame where you can use anything that can be hacked into the game and used in local battles. And going by this definition, Eternamax and a Pikachu with an HP stat of 65,536 should indeed be legal in PH because they can be hacked into the game and played with in local battles. However, not all hacks are created equal and to understand this better, you have to understand these different kinds of hacks to the game, and what you can accomplish with each kind of hack.

There are a variety categories of hacks possible, but to summarize a few: ROM hacking is editing the program of the game itself, RAM hacking is editing the running data of the game, Save File editing is probably what most people are familiar with when they think “hacks” (think PKHeX), and then there are patches and cheat codes.

HP Editing and Eternamax, the two main things that killed Sword and Shield Hackmons, are only possible with RAM hacking—edits to the running data of the game. (And ROM hacking in the case of Eternamax.) The issue here is that those two things just scratch the surface of what RAM hacks are capable of. For example, RAM hacks can be used to make it so your moves always crit or to make your ice beams always freeze. Take a look at this video (courtesy of Anubis)—and note that this isn’t just a local battle, it’s an online battle.

The essence of this is: if you choose to allow Eternamax, HP Editing, and the Dynamax exploit, then you also need to allow for such things as manipulation of the battle rng because they are categorically the same.

I say this not to kick the dead horse that is Sword and Shield Pure Hackmons, but to point out a deficiency in the way PH is currently defined. You can apply a cheat to your game that makes it so your moves always crit or your scalds always burn and use them in a local battle—that is something you can “hack in game” and “use in local battles.”

Obviously, things like HP Editing and the manipulation of the the battle rng render any format unplayable. And because of the way PH is currently defined, this is an issue that both exists in past generations and will continue to exist in future generations. It’s arguably even worse in past generations, where the host of a local battle can force their manipulated rng on the guest. Something needs to be changed.

One possible solution to this is to more clearly specify what kind of hacks, categorically speaking, Hackmons encompasses.

For example, we could specify that Hackmons refers only to hacks that don’t modify the program of the game itself (ROM hacks, patches, etc.) and that persist upon reboot and healing (which would exclude RAM hacks) and, of course, that are able to be played with in a local battle (so things like generation 6’s EV limit would remain). Rebooting the game flushes anything stored only in RAM and healing flushes transient party stats. With those stipulations, the hacks that persist are ones that are in the spirit of PH such as moveset and ability edits to individual Pokemon.

It could look something like this:

“Anything that can be hacked in-game, persists upon reboot and healing, and is usable in local battles is allowed, with no bans or clauses. The program of the game itself is unmodified. In other words, all existing Pokémon can use any move and any ability as long as it can be used in local matches against other players!”

What this proposed definition of PH means for Gen 8:

In short, were the new definition or a similar solution to this adopted, Sword and Shield Hackmons might actually be playable. Eternamax is only injectable through edits to the running data of the game or through ROM hacking and does not persist upon reboot and healing. Same for HP Editing and the Dynamax Exploit. Other battle-only forms hacked into the game like Zacian-Crowned and Cramorant-Gorging also do not persist upon reboot. And that’s basically it.

What this means for Gen 6 and 7 PH:
Very little to nothing would actually change for generation 6 PH as unlike the battle-only forms in generation 8, Megas and Primals hacked into the game do persist upon reboot. Similarly, for generation 7, Crystal Free Z-moves (CFZs) hacked into your Pokemon’s movesets also persist upon reboot.

What this could mean for future generations:
One benefit of adopting this or a similar solution is that it creates a consistent litmus test for what’s permitted in PH.
Say a new exploit is discovered. You then ask "Is it still there if you save, reboot the game, and heal your party ingame?"
If yes -> consider it to be added.
If no -> not eligible.

As a final aside, it’s worth noting that should this or a similar solution be adopted, nothing new needs to be added to make Sword and Shield Hackmons playable, so it shouldn’t be heavy on developer time.

However, regardless of whether or not SwSh Hackmons will be revived or not, some rework of PH’s definition needs to happen for the continued playability of both past and future generations of Hackmons.
If this is accepted, I can't wait to play the new gen8! I think it might be really fun
 
My personal recollection is that Gens 1-2 PH are unplayable due to arbitrary code execution, which allows you to edit the Gameboy games in pretty much any way you want, from RNG manipulation to even adding new mons to the game (if you're really skilled). You can even stick SpongeBob footage in a Gen 1 game if you're good enough!

As a result, I think sorting out a definition of PH that results in more playable generations will be harder to do than we might think, and I suspect we are working with a baseline assumption that anything allowable in local battles must remain allowed in PH, regardless of how unplayable the meta gets as a result.
 
My personal recollection is that Gens 1-2 PH are unplayable due to arbitrary code execution, which allows you to edit the Gameboy games in pretty much any way you want, from RNG manipulation to even adding new mons to the game (if you're really skilled). You can even stick SpongeBob footage in a Gen 1 game if you're good enough!

As a result, I think sorting out a definition of PH that results in more playable generations will be harder to do than we might think, and I suspect we are working with a baseline assumption that anything allowable in local battles must remain allowed in PH, regardless of how unplayable the meta gets as a result.
I think what Daylight is getting at is that we should change the definition of PH to anything that is playable and local battles and persists upon reboot. In this case, since things like Eternamax do not persist upon reboot, they would not be in the gen8 PH scene. Arbitrary code execution is a form of RAM hacking (I think), and so it would not persist upon reboot. As a result, it wouldn't be allowed in the gen1 PH scene if this definition were to be adopted.

Edit: It's actually "Anything that is usable in local battles, and persists upon reboot plus heal from pokecenter." I think this makes arbitrary code execution even less allowed if it were to be adopted, but idk much about gen1 in general, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
 
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DaWoblefet

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The essence of this is: if you choose to allow Eternamax, HP Editing, and the Dynamax exploit, then you also need to allow for such things as manipulation of the battle rng because they are categorically the same.
I like the idea of disallowing RAM hacks broadly, but I disagree that your given examples are categorically the same. It seems to me that there's a fundamental difference between RAM hacking during the battle, and RAM hacking before the battle. My understanding with the battle RNG mad haccs Anubis has done in the past is that it's all during the battle itself. Now, I may be wrong on that and you can just manipulate everything in advance of the battle (or at least enough to make us hate it). I think it'd be a shame, for example, not to have hackable Cramorant or Zacian forms available just because after rebooting the game or completing a battle, the forms get sanitized back to normal, when they would otherwise function perfectly fine. Perhaps it's a worthy trade-off policy-wise.

Another point that I don't know if we've got policy on is how to handle effects that when hacked in, crash the game. I would think that things that allow the player to crash the game should either be unusable or else cause the player to lose the game. For example, using Substitute with Eternamax crashes the game (or Sub with any pre-Dynamaxed Pokemon), because there's no Dynamaxed Substitute model. You can similarly cause crashes with spread moves or exclusive animations with pre-Dynamaxed Pokemon, or by Transforming into Eternamax incorrectly. Pre-Dynamaxed Pokemon, for example, don't require RAM hacking, so you've still got that to deal with that policy-wise even if you ban RAM hacking.
 
I like the idea of disallowing RAM hacks broadly, but I disagree that your given examples are categorically the same. It seems to me that there's a fundamental difference between RAM hacking during the battle, and RAM hacking before the battle. My understanding with the battle RNG mad haccs Anubis has done in the past is that it's all during the battle itself. Now, I may be wrong on that and you can just manipulate everything in advance of the battle (or at least enough to make us hate it). I think it'd be a shame, for example, not to have hackable Cramorant or Zacian forms available just because after rebooting the game or completing a battle, the forms get sanitized back to normal, when they would otherwise function perfectly fine. Perhaps it's a worthy trade-off policy-wise.

Another point that I don't know if we've got policy on is how to handle effects that when hacked in, crash the game. I would think that things that allow the player to crash the game should either be unusable or else cause the player to lose the game. For example, using Substitute with Eternamax crashes the game (or Sub with any pre-Dynamaxed Pokemon), because there's no Dynamaxed Substitute model. You can similarly cause crashes with spread moves or exclusive animations with pre-Dynamaxed Pokemon, or by Transforming into Eternamax incorrectly. Pre-Dynamaxed Pokemon, for example, don't require RAM hacking, so you've still got that to deal with that policy-wise even if you ban RAM hacking.
I think accepting the proposed definition would solve the issues discussed in the second paragraph. Pre-Dynamx doesn't persist upon reboot+heal, so you wouldn't be able to use it. It is a shame you wouldn't be able to use things like zac-c or zygarde-complete (or maybe thats better for the metagame), but I personally think it's a good trade-off.
 

Daylight

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Pre-Dynamaxed Pokemon, for example, don't require RAM hacking, so you've still got that to deal with that policy-wise even if you ban RAM hacking.
That’s why my proposed solution is not to say “RAM hacking is banned” but to tighten the definition of what’s permissible with a stipulation like “does it persist after you save, reboot, and heal your party?” From what Anubis showed me, Pre-Dynamaxed Pokemon do not persist as Pre-Dynamaced mons after reboot and healing.

I like the idea of disallowing RAM hacks broadly, but I disagree that your given examples are categorically the same. It seems to me that there's a fundamental difference between RAM hacking during the battle, and RAM hacking before the battle. My understanding with the battle RNG mad haccs Anubis has done in the past is that it's all during the battle itself. Now, I may be wrong on that and you can just manipulate everything in advance of the battle (or at least enough to make us hate it). I think it'd be a shame, for example, not to have hackable Cramorant or Zacian forms available just because after rebooting the game or completing a battle, the forms get sanitized back to normal, when they would otherwise function perfectly fine. Perhaps it's a worthy trade-off policy-wise.
I actually am not sure about your first point. I don’t know whether the rng has to be manipulated during the battle, if it’s set up before it, or if it's possible either way. Regardless, the current PH definition of anything that can be hacked and “used in local battles” has enough ambiguity that either way it’s problematic.

I suppose it could be interesting to think about RAM hacking before versus during the battle in terms of policy. However, if we make that distinction and only ban the latter—that is, hacking that happens mid-battle—it doesn’t actually solve any of the issues PH has. Cramorant-Gorging and itemless Zacian-Crowned work fine but then you also have to allow HP/party stat editing which was the true death knell for Gen 8 PH. And even then, manipulation of the battle RNG might still be possible prior to the battle (I’ll have to talk to Anubis again), in which case there’s literally no benefit.

This is why I think the simplest and most elegant solution—and the most in the spirit and intention of PH—is just a simple check:

If I save, reboot the game, and heal, is the thing I hacked still there? If no, it’s not eligible for PH. If yes, it is.
 

Anubis

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I like the idea of disallowing RAM hacks broadly, but I disagree that your given examples are categorically the same. It seems to me that there's a fundamental difference between RAM hacking during the battle, and RAM hacking before the battle. My understanding with the battle RNG mad haccs Anubis has done in the past is that it's all during the battle itself. Now, I may be wrong on that and you can just manipulate everything in advance of the battle (or at least enough to make us hate it). I think it'd be a shame, for example, not to have hackable Cramorant or Zacian forms available just because after rebooting the game or completing a battle, the forms get sanitized back to normal, when they would otherwise function perfectly fine. Perhaps it's a worthy trade-off policy-wise.
I think the point should not to be focusing on the categories, because categories of hacking are not as clean as anyone wants to make them out to be, and nitpicking the method makes it harder to sustain for users who are not as technically knowledgeable.

If you want to go into details about method, consider:

Cheat codes change the game execution, but are they RAM hacks? Are they ROM hacks? What if I press a button to activate it, is that different from me manually editing that location in RAM?

Does adding a file make the hack invalid? Does it matter where I add the file on my Switch? In what way is a cheat code different from a patch or a layeredfs mod versus how people might have done it in the past with ROM hacking? Is adding my save file to be reimported also banned because you don't like files? Why are some files okay but others not okay?

Why is it okay for a human to make the edit but not okay for a patch to make the same edit? For example, being concerned about method would mean you are not okay with Eternamax obtained from ROM hacks that change wild encounters into Eternamax, but you are okay with a human doing the exact same change to an overworld spawn for the same result.

If you are okay with me editing byte X on a mon to change IVs, then you should be okay with me editing any other bytes on the mon, right? It's not different to edit attack IV vs current HP vs current status effects.

Please understand that I'm not saying these all need answers. The fact is you have to draw the line in the sand somehow, and your goal is to pick a sustainable set of rules that best encompasses the spirit of the metagame. I don't think the correct approach is to come up with an exhaustive list of every hack you want and every hack you don't want, because it would make the metagame fundamentally harder to understand, enforce, and maintain.

The proposal handles a few things well in that it removes hacks that are generally considered unfun, eliminates other unfun exploits that would fall within the rules and are yet to be implemented, and provides an easy way for future leadership to evaluate whether a mechanic should be added in the future. I think that or something similar should be considered.
 

aerobee

Pure Hackmons
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VR Update! (7/17/22)

RISES

:jirachi: UP from C to B
:lugia: UP from UR to B-
:arceus: (Psychic) UP from C to C+
:giratina: UP from C to C+
:heatran: UP from D to C+
:groudon: UP from D to C-
:ho-oh: UP from D to C-
:blissey: UP from UR to C-
:aerodactyl: UP from UR to D
:articuno: UP from UR to D
:gliscor: UP from UR to D

DROPS

:arceus: (Rock) DOWN from A to B+
:arceus: (Dragon) DOWN from A- to B+
:slaking: DOWN from B to B-
:kyogre: DOWN from C to C-

Explanations:

RISES

:dp/jirachi:

Comatose Jirachi is an excellent check to Mewtwo lacking Fire-type coverage for it, as it sports a 4x resistance to Stored Power and a neutrality to Fighting- and Bug-type coverage, as well as a resistance to Moonblast, that could be used as coverage to threaten other checks like Arceus-Dark and the occasional Heatran. Additionally, Jirachi resists STAB attacks from many of the better Arceus formes, like Arceus-Flying, Arceus-Grass, and Arceus-Fairy, so it contributes as a defensive check in a wide variety of matchups. Jirachi dislikes Trick and what is possibly the best Pokemon in the metagame in Arceus-Ghost, as well as Mewtwo running Fire Blast, however, so it struggles with much of the offensive metagame. Jirachi's positive qualities justify a rise to B rank.


:dp/lugia:

Lugia actually has a fair bit going for it - while it needs Comatose to properly check what it needs to check, its bulk, immunity to Sticky Web, and fairly good defensive typing for the metagame give it decent niches. The combination of immense special bulk and resistance to Stored Power mean it usually survives two Stored Powers from Life Orb Mewtwo after a Shell Smash, something that nearly nothing else can boast of without getting smacked by coverage that Mewtwo commonly runs. Lugia has issues, however, especially with Arceus-Ghost, common Taunt users (though it can somewhat circumvent this by running Nuzzle), Stealth Rock weakness, and a vulnerability to Trick, so its defensive capabilities aren't universal; however, ultimately it has been underrated and a rise to B- rank is warranted.


:dp/arceus: (Psychic)

Arceus-Psychic is basically Lugia but less specially defensive, slightly more powerful, and has a more useful speed tier. It trades the ability to near consistently switch into boosted Life Orb Mewtwo's Stored Power for being able to speed tie other Arceus formes, which leaves it nearly as good as Lugia; it rises slightly to C+ rank.


:dp/giratina:

Giratina does standard Giratina things, except to a MUCH lesser extent than it did in previous generations. Its untrappability is far less valuable in a metagame infested with Neutralizing Gas, and its great bulk is less great than it would be due to the metagame's nature. One thing it does have going for it, however, is a valuable immunity to Trick. Taunt sucks but it can shrug it off by running options like Nuzzle and Dragon Tail. Giratina rises slightly to C+ rank.


:dp/heatran:

Heatran's a good check to Mewtwo lacking Fighting-type coverage - while it does get 2HKOed by boosted Stored Power, it can neuter Mewtwo's offensive prowess with Nuzzle or damage it with Foul Play to the point where 2~3 Life Orb recoils cause Mewtwo to faint afterwards. It also has utility in checking Arceus-Flying, Arceus-Fairy, and Arceus-Grass. It also doesn't have as much of a weakness to unboosted Arceus-Ghost if healthy, even against variants running Low Kick or Close Combat. Heatran rises to C+ rank.

:dp/groudon: :dp/ho-oh:

Groudon and Ho-Oh rise to C- rank due to them having unique, albeit very minor, niches. With Choice Band Groudon can OHKO any Arceus forme weak to its STAB with Precipice Blades, and is just strong enough to OHKO neutral nature Arceus-Flying with Volt Tackle after Stealth Rock. Running Choice Band also leaves Groudon slightly less vulnerable to Trick, as opposing Trick users will still have a Choice item after using the move. Ho-Oh can run a funny Magic Guard set that allows it to come in on Comatose users even when Stealth Rock is on the field; its great special bulk allows it to hardcounter Arceus-Grass and check Arceus-Ghost running Judgment or Shadow Ball as STAB.


:dp/blissey:

Blissey just does Blissey things, soaking special attacks from a metagame that largely forgoes physical attacks; it can also check mixed attackers to an extent, as it can survive Arceus-Ghost's Low Kick after a Shell Smash. However, Blissey has numerous issues, like being extremely passive, having to rely on the likes of Nuzzle, Circle Throw, and Dragon Tail to circumvent Taunt, and being blown past by Stored Power Mewtwo, that hold it back from being a legitimately good special wall. Blissey makes its debut on the VR in C- rank.


:dp/aerodactyl: :dp/articuno: :dp/gliscor:

These Flying-types have extremely fringe niches. Aerodactyl outspeeds Arceus formes while being immune to Sticky Web (and resisting Arceus-Flying's STAB), Articuno is immune to Sheer Cold and has workable special bulk, and Gliscor is immune to Nuzzle and Arceus-Electric's STAB while being a Flying-type. However, the first two Pokemon have a Stealth Rock weakness, and Aerodactyl and Gliscor have relatively poor special bulk that prevent them from checking most Arceus formes effectively. All three Pokemon start off in D rank.


DROPS

:dp/arceus: (Rock)

Arceus-Rock faces too much competition from Arceus-Steel as a Comaphazer that resists Arceus-Flying's STAB while also resisting priority attacks like Extreme Speed. Arceus-Rock fares worse against Arceus-Grass, Arceus-Ghost running Fighting-type coverage, Arceus-Fairy, and some less prevalent Arceus formes like Arceus-Ground and base Arceus. Rock-type STAB does have fairly good neutral coverage, however, and Power Gem has good PP while targeting Arceus-Flying and having its relatively low BP not matter much due to the nature of the metagame. Arceus-Rock drops to B+ rank.


:dp/arceus: (Dragon)

Arceus-Dragon's in a weird spot. On one hand it's a decent Arceus-Grass check, has great STAB moves in Spacial Rend and Dragon Pulse, and has the defensive typing to annoy most Arceus forces in a 1v1. On the other hand, offensive sets are stopped cold by Arceus-Fairy and to an extent Arceus-Steel. Support sets don't seem too terrible but a lot of the time you'd want to run another Arceus forme over it. Arceus-Dragon's weaknesses justify a drop to B+ rank.


:dp/slaking:

Slaking faces very stiff competition from Regigigas in a largely special metagame, and instances where one would run Slaking over Regigigas are very rare. Slaking drops to B-.


:dp/kyogre:

Kyogre's only niche over Arceus-Water is hitting noticeably harder and being slightly scarier in niche rain archetypes. Besides that you'd basically always want to run Arceus-Water, which is already one of the worse Arceus formes. Kyogre drops to C- rank.
 
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