Resource BDSP OU Metagame Discussion Thread

You claimed that the Pokémon options are limited because of one Pokémon and if you think that mons like Scizor Blissey Heatran etc. would stop being everywhere and feel "forced" on the opponent you're not paying attention or something especially when Latias is one of the go to options in HO as is. I've been far more pressured by teambuilding by mons like Zam and Crawdaunt (the latter I definitely wouldn't call broken) than Latios.
I'm not saying those mons will disappear lol. No-one is saying that, there will always be a need for Draco/Psychic switch-ins. What I'm saying is, "I'd like to stop using SpD Scizor or CM Blissey on every non-HO team because they let Crawdaunt, Breloom and Feraligatr in for free constantly and are just outclassed by better sets in general outside of specifically beating Latios". Without Latios (and Zam agree that is dumb) in the picture, the list of what counts as a Draco/Psychic switch-in massively increases and so we get more options for teambuilding and also in-battle, so one crit/SpD drop/set mispredict no longer means throwing a mon.

This meta will always be offense-ruled and no amount of bans will change that, agreed, but right now even Bulky Offense is hard to build without throwing one of these passive mons on your team which suck momentum away like nothing else. SpD Scizor is popular just because if it somehow gets a free turn rather than having to spam Roost all the time it gets to U-turn occasionally, and it can revenge kill certain things. All just so you can not have to throw a mon every time Latios comes in. Cool idea: what if offensive Scizor was a thing again you could use to soak Dracos while not being passive AF?
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 284-335 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Latias Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 252-297 (73.4 - 86.5%) -- not a KO (yes you do get 2HKOed after Rocks by coverage, but that gives a free switch-in to something else.)
This is just an example, but basically my gripe is you can't offensively counter Latios, only revenge it or wall it, and that's what makes HO and stall the dominant styles. Banning it therefore opens up room to not be forced into basically playing stall sets on BO/Balance.

Seriously though, I'd like to hear what are these "other mons" aside from Zam and Latios that supposedly force you to run max SpD Scizor. Every other mon in the meta has proven to have a variety of viable counterplay, even Garchomp which I had misgivings about earlier in the meta.
Also nobody runs Thunderbolt ever and any GSC player will tell you it sucks pretty much solely because it doesn't hit Snorlax
This is off-topic at this point, but I 100% was not saying thunderbolt is good lol. I was saying in all probability Thunder>Thunderbolt even without Snorlax in the picture. The real sign of Snorlax's dominance is the huge amount of phasing in the meta.
banning for the sake of diversity doesn't make a good meta, banning for the sake of a change is even worse.
Agree totally, there is a reason Lando-T has never been banned for. We ban things that are broken (is so good not using it puts you at a disadvantage), uncompetitive (makes luck more important than skill) or unhealthy (ban this as a last resort, restricts the format from proper growth, possibly due to an oversaturation of threats). Latios is broken (the best two mons in the meta are Latios and Latios's 1 splashable counter) and unhealthy (by definition, but this alone shouldn't be a reason to ban something unless 100% needed). Zam is arguably more broken and almost as unhealthy. But Latios is blatantly the root cause of all these "unsets" being mandatory.
Basically, no, I don't want Latios banned just for sake of banning something. I want it banned because it's broken and stupidly easy to use, its "counters" are laughably exploitable, and it forces a snowball effect on teambuilding where you add one passive mon to deal with it, then have to add another to deal with everything that gets free turns off that, and you end up with a stall team.
This will be my last post on this, I think I've made my feelings clear and if you truly believe having a stale meta after like a month is healthy then I can't persuade you lol. The whole point of teambuilding is to come up with something new, not just throw on the same Scizor VoltTurn structure that gets smashed by Crawdaunt again because trying anything else gets you annihilated by Latios.
 
The metagame is completely ossified, has been for some time, and will never develop from here. The best offensive threats are a group of Pokemon that are head-and-shoulders above the rest of the tier in terms of power. Latios, Alakazam, Crawdaunt, Weavile, Starmie, Infernape, Feraligatr, Garchomp, and Mamoswine are all fucked up to varying degrees. All of these Pokemon either have a) very limited counterplay, b) legit no reasonable counterplay, or c) force near-guesses in response. There are simply not enough viable defensive options to cover these Pokemon, be it individually or collectively, they are all far too strong, and facilitating them is far too easy. This means that you're pigeonholed into builds that are incredibly formulaic, and even then, you WILL have glaring holes to a good amount of these top threats, simply because of how hard they hit.

This is subject to change, but as it stands, all of these Pokemon are clearly broken, and I would be open to banning all of them, starting with Latios+Alakazam simultaneously, then Crawdaunt (seriously, how is this bullshit thing not talked about more?), and then going from there.
 
I don't agree that the metagame is bad far from it but I do agree that thinking banning a single Pokémon will change anything long-term is a naive notion. I say leave the metagame as is since I very much enjoy the offensive nature you seldom see nowadays, but if one really wants a change you need to group up said threats heavily because most people hate the concept of bans that change absolutely nothing.
 
I don't agree that the metagame is bad far from it but I do agree that thinking banning a single Pokémon will change anything long-term is a naive notion. I say leave the metagame as is since I very much enjoy the offensive nature you seldom see nowadays, but if one really wants a change you need to group up said threats heavily because most people hate the concept of bans that change absolutely nothing.
I think what theotherguytm is getting at is that threats like Zam / Latios make the metagame unhealthly (which is a much less ill-defined term for the current meta than just bad). Additionally, I have to heavily disagree with you here. I'm not sure how you came to such a contrary conclcusion from what theotherguytm said, but the purpose of removing multiple or singular pokemon is specifically dedicated to affect the long-term health of the tier, which is extremely far from a naive notion.

I hate to see conundrums like these, justifying no action on clearly unbalanced or unhealthy things in the tier on the basis that others still exist. We saw this with the Manaphy suspect as well, albeit, with some differences. Moral of the story, you can't eat an elephant whole, and you can't go denting the health of the tier just because you want to eat said elephant whole.
 
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I quite frankly didn't see Manaphy as an issue and, unlike Gengar's leave, had a relatively small impact but it was voted for so I will not say much. I will say unhealthy is extremely subjective I would argue the past few gens OU are very unhealthy as they relied very heavily on stat creep and the overwhelming power of balance made things like hax far more for an unhealthy and overall unfun experience. You'll quickly learn preaching that in gen 8 or something is pointless metas will handle threats differently and that isn't a bad thing.

I also have no clue why there is an argument at all in-terms of banning ethics the skewing almost feels intentional at this point. I'm saying if you really think Latios or x offensive mon is unhealthy then group them by type or whatever and ban them together an individual ban would solve none of your complaints. The discussion should be on offensive psychics/darks or whatever.
 
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I quite frankly didn't see Manaphy as an issue and, unlike Gengar's leave, had a relatively small impact but it was voted for so I will not say much. I will say unhealthy is extremely subjective I would argue the past few gens OU are very unhealthy as they relied very heavily on stat creep and the overwhelming power of balance made things like hax far more for an unhealthy and overall unfun experience. You'll quickly learn preaching that in gen 8 or something is pointless metas will handle threats differently and that isn't a bad thing.

I also have no clue why there is an argument at all the skewing almost feels intentional at this point. I'm saying if you really think Latios or x offensive mon is unhealthy (Which I don't I think there are offensive measures to make them balanced you simply can't just win by having a mon stat check them much) then group them by type or whatever and ban them together an individual ban would solve none of your complaints. The discussion should be on offensive psychics/darks or whatever.
Right. I wasn't gonna get into this because others made pretty good points about why the pokemon in question are an issue as well as the issues the tier currently has, but this makes me say a couple of things.

Manaphy was a problem because it had a negative impact on balance teams and made them extremely hard to build without very specific pokemon such as unaware Clef just so they didn't fold to it. Manaphy represents a problem the tier has overall, not that you have to use specific pokemon, but specific sets on specific pokemon. Those sets usually being suboptimal and/or exploitable.

No one is arguing Scizor or Blissey or Heatran would stop being used. The latter is amazing anyways but balance and bulky teams would love to stop being forced to using spdef scizor which is a weak passive blob, and Blissey can be sometimes the same at times, so they don't get run over by Latios. This extends to Alakazam as well, who also happens to contribute to the many scarfers syndrome in the meta.

You say the last few gens of OU are unhealthy but I want to know in what way? What sort of negative element of those tiers exist (or existed)? The only arguably problematic elements were Magearna in in gen7. And that was more of a general multipurpose pokemon.

You say that different tiers have different ways of handling threats but there's a difference between doing so in a healthy manner and unhealthy manner.

More than anything you seem to be a little biased towards offense and against balance/bulky teams. For me I like experimenting and tend to lean towards BO teams, so it is incredibly difficult to build a team without relying on one or both of Spdef Scizor and Blissey, heavily limiting the team structures I can use.

Everyone has their preferences and that is totally fair but I don't think it's right to let those preferences interfere with trying to look at a situation in the metagame objectively as possible.
 
It's hard for me to argue with someone who saw the reliance of typing and raw defensive or offensive stats of Gen 7/really any post gen 4 OU that made it the biggest "you win or lose by team preview to one-out-of-a-million threats or if your one lure/nuke succeeds or fails at best case" and viewed it positively. That's an opinion you're welcome to have but there are those who appreciate a gen whose main win condition isn't through simply having the bigger number but by having multiple soft checks that must focus on calculated switch-ins with a team that can loosely handle everything feasibly, much like DPP's lifespan while it was the main series and I think a lot of people who viewed BDSP as fun would agree. It actually feels pretty unique and is a completely different shift from the past 4 generations and I would rather keep that unique flare than trying to turn a game into a bootleg current gen.

If you STILL view this as a bad thing and want to ban the 10+ mons that stop something like Stall or hard balance (of which Latios is one of the least offenders) then address it in bulk. These x type offensive threats are almost interchangeable doing otherwise is just banning for the sake of banning. That is as objective as I can possibly get whether you view this positively or negatively is on the person analyzing.
 
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Xilefi

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Small clarification on my post and the general discussion. The general pace of the metagame is a simple fact that does not necessarily indicate a balance or health problem. The same goes for how I feel about it. I think looking at whether a format is enjoyable is a valid discussion for the general attractiveness of a format, but the biases involved make it unsuitable for a discussion of balance.
 
Why has Shaymin-s been banned? I asked this in the monotype thread specifically but he was a great answer to the myriad of bulky waters out there
 
Why has Shaymin-s been banned? I asked this in the monotype thread specifically but he was a great answer to the myriad of bulky waters out there
I cannot speak for monotype, but the issue with Sky Shaymin is that it was practically uncounterable and took skill out of the equation because between Seed Flare (40% chance to harshly lower Sp. Defence), Air Slash (30% flinch chance), and Serene Grace (doubles the chance of added effects to occur, meaning Seed Flare now has an 80% chance to drop SDef and Air Slash has a 60% flinch chance), it can single-handedly dismantle teams (for the record, flinch + Serene Grace isn't exclusive to it, but it's much faster than the other mons that are known to do this, with 127 base speed vs Jirachi's 100 and Togekiss's 80). That's... pretty nasty, to put it lightly.

EDIT: I will also note that Sky Shaymin has the dubious honor of being one of the few Pokemon to be unanimously banned. It was that much of a pain in the ass.
 
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With the core meta largely settled (for the moment), curious individuals enter a phase where they decide to screw around in builder and see if they can find anything with the potential to shake things up, if only a bit, Pokemon that most players would overlook. One such individual has finally managed to compile a selection of gimmicky options that saw some significant success in practice, so here are a few options for the more experimental player.

:dp/Steelix:
Steelix @ Life Orb
Sheer Force
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
-Earthquake
-Iron Tail
-Ice Fang
-Crunch

By far the gimmickiest set I'll be highlighting today, this Steelix set displays how ridiculous Sheer Force can be with the right moves. Steelix happens to have some key qualities, namely its fairly solid dual typing and naturally great physical bulk affording it switch in opportunities vs stuff like Scizor and Weavile. While I was initially hesitant on learning BDSP took away Iron Head, Iron Tail's 130 BP post Sheer Force means that it straight up demolishes Clefable and all but the most physical bulky Togekiss (still 43.8% to OHKO), countering any non-Flamethrower Kiss and even speed creeping Clef with paralysis support. Its Ground typing makes it the only Steel type immune to Electric, meaning it's a rare Steel not afraid of Zone. Ice Fang can potentially OHKO non-PhysDef Gliscor; initially had Fire Fang for the meme but switched to Crunch so Washtom can't switch in for free. Steelix tends to only score 1 KO a game, so it's best used on offense teams that can capitalize on that one KO with partners like Infernape and Starmie; also might be good to have another Ground type so Lix doesn't bare sole responsibility for Volt blocking.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1523604489
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1523660527
Rating: Pure Gimmick

:dp/Abomasnow:
Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Snow Warning
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty/Naive Nature
-Blizzard
-Giga Drain
-Focus Blast/Earthquake
-Earthquake/Ice Shard/Aurora Veil

Herald of the perpetually forgotten weather, Abomasnow packs a complementary STAB combo with anti-Steel coverage, using Scarf to outspeed and guaranteed OHKO Latios after just one round of Rocks chip. Now, Snow has some very notable counters: Rachi, SpD Scizor, Blissey, Clefable if some SpD investment and Heatran if not EQ; thing is, these mons are the only safe switch ins, and these particular Pokemon are usually tasked with switching into a lot of attacks throughout a game, meaning offensive teams can easily overwhelm them and let Obama clean up the endgame. Scarf Obama finds its home on these teams, getting around annoying mons like Washtom, Gliscor and Tangrowth and providing hail chip that can help its team score crucial KOs, plus Rapid Spin Starmie is a pretty solid partner. You need Blast or EQ to target Steels (accuracy fears vs burn fears), or use Shard to revenge kill DD Dragonite or Aurora Veil to further support offensive teammates, potentially making it a niche but useable HO setter. Nature depends on whether you want an easier switch in vs Washtom or Gliscor.
[Gen 8 BDSP] OU replay: okispokis vs. gible808 - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1527062876
Rating: Gimmick, but Good

:dp/Shedinja:
Shedinja @ Focus Sash
Wonder Guard (duh)
252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Shadow Sneak
-X-Scissor
-Shadow Claw
-Will-o-wisp

It's Shedinja. You know the drill: watch out for hazards, blank scary offensive mons like Magnezone, Azumarill and Latios who currently have no way of touching you. Loss of Boots and SD really sucks, Garchomp and Ttar delete it by existing (special Shed is too weak to do anything of note), and Heatran choosing Flame Body is not great. So on top of dealing with hazards, you need teams that are specifically good against these three; that need and Shed's current lack of breaking power means I feel it is actually best on offense, as opposed to stall where it compounds weaknesses to hazards and Crawdaunt. Shed doesn't do much by itself, but with proper support it can guarantee wins since most teams usually only have 2 things to touch it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1534071674-1cg88z61cekki9852r5er73tm7syyczpw
(Requisite salt) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1533778729
Rating: It's Shedinja.

:dp/Lapras:
Lapras @ Leftovers
Water Absorb
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Freeze-Dry
-Surf
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

My most recently used mon in this post, Lapras' STABs are surprisingly hard to switch into barring a handful of specially bulky mons (specifically Blissey, Clefable, SpD Scizor, Jirachi, defensive Togekiss) even without investment; all but Blissey fear the potential freeze off of the high PP STAB Freeze-Dry while offensive Steels like Zone and Lucario struggle to take Surf repeatedly. Like Obama, Lapras is particularly hard to answer late-game, as offensive teams often eliminate its few answers by then and it doesn't have to worry about hazards as much. Great bulk and Water Absorb allow Lapras to tank quite a few key threats; Feraligatr's +1 Crunch isn't a guaranteed 2HKO while Lapras cleanly 2HKOs Beam variants and almost always 2HKOs Punch variants, and 2 consecutive Specs Dracos from Latios never KOs from full without a crit. These STABs are strong enough that the reliance on RestTalk for recovery isn't as burdensome as you'd think, even with Sleep Talk's chance of failing key turns. That said, the Rocks weakness can cut into its longevity and Fighting types can exploit it even if they can't come in safely: fortunately Lapras doesn't have to be alone.
:Lapras: + :Gliscor: + :Heatran:
In my experience, Lapras + Heatran + physDef Gliscor is a surprisingly solid defensive core wherein each member can also contribute offensively. Heatran provides Rocks, takes Grass moves for Lapras and thanks to Magma Storm + Taunt can potentially remove all of Lapras' defensive switch ins while Lapras feeds off Water moves aimed at it and Gliscor; Water immunity means Lap takes the Surf Specs Lati needs to break Tran, allowing the two to hard stop the Jet with careful prediction. Gliscor provides a physical backbone to the core, plus removal for Lapras, Ground immunity for Tran, Electric immunity for Lap, a Fighting resist for both partners, and pivoting support, while Tran and Lapras sufficiently cover its Ice weakness. Mamo is really the only thing that can reliably break the core, and it still needs to be wary of Lapras Surf. This core is definitely best use with offensive teammates that can pressure the few core breakers, and I would recommend an additional Fighting resist.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1543108328-y1550kebtzcomxvy0z3j9v26ag1gyivpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1543676219
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1543842389
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1543111711
Rating: Genuine niche pick?

:dp/Lanturn:
Lanturn @ Choice Scarf
Volt Absorb
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid/Modest Nature
-Volt Switch
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt/Scald

Inspired by the weird set I kept seeing in BDSP Monotype, Scarf Lanturn sets itself apart from Washtom- by being arguably the single best counter to Washtom, blocking Volt, resisting Hydro, not caring about burn and unlike the mostly solid Gastrodon can't even be ruined by ScarfTrick. The typing + Volt Absorb means Lanturn also blanks Magnezone, Togekiss, most standard Heatran, and Starmie can only break with both prior chip and high rolls on Analytic Hydros. Lanturn, unlike Washtom, also packs Ice Beam to OHKO Gliscor after Rocks and usually OHKO offensive Chomp after Rocks and Scald to provide burns and shore up its bulk; Tbolt alternatively guarantees OHKO on Crawdaunt and Starmie post one-LO hit. Even with its mediocre SpA, non-Modest Hydro is strong enough to guarantee an OHKO vs both Mamoswine and Nidoking which you handily outpace. Timid gives you that prime speed (speed creep Jolly Weavile by one point), while Modest can make up for damage shortcomings but you don't outpace Lati anymore.
(Do not forget to nature your Pokemon. No particular reason for saying this. Nope.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1537862958
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1537895358-fmcrpl693z94vwwrmkaszapjadbktk7pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1537900287
Rating: Gimmick, but Good

:dp/Rotom-Heat:
Rotom-Heat @ Choice Scarf
Levitate (duh)
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Volt Switch
-Overheat
-Nasty Plot
-Trick

Paired with the Scarf Lanturn for my meme "Dual Rotom" team, Heattom actually has some notable benefits over its soaked sibling. Comparatively, its typing gives it key resistances to Electric, Grass, Bug, and especially Fairy. Overheat obviously gives it a better matchup vs Scizor, Magnezone, Jirachi and Tangrowth, but by far its best advantage is over Clefable, as on top of Trick shenanigans it can resist Moonblast (without Rocks, standard Clef only 2HKOs offensive at +4) while having a stronger STAB option thanks to Clef's own Unaware ignoring the one drawback of Overheat, 2HKOing neutral Clef without SpD investment (guaranteed with Rocks). Heattom should not be your sole Clef answer, but it is a great stopgap vs it. That said, Rocks and Water weakness do mean Heattom is probably unable to use a defensive set like Wash can, so I'd recommend sticking to the Scarf set.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1537851334-o1kewmjt0pxen86yz7zdqidm30l5guypw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1537910331
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1537997438
Rating: Genuine niche pick?

Sheer Lix (pokepast.es)
Let it Snow (pokepast.es) (somehow forgot hazards; thought about not including this team tbh)
Salty Shed (pokepast.es)
Lap it Up (pokepast.es)
Turn (pokepast.es)
 
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Well Darkrai is out now.
It's obviously insta-Ubered like Skymin was anyway but I guess the guide page could be updated soonish for timing and whatnot-as well as curiosity for sets that Drai can run in the G4 remakes during his post DV nerf days.
 
Could the Latios suspect test and likely ban salvage what little is left of this tier? Or, will the prevalence and rise of yet another oppressive offensive threat (of which there are quite a few that could take the lead) lead to a few more haphazard suspect tests until nobody cares anymore and the tier is left to rot.
I've said my peace about this before, and wholeheartedly feel like the tier is in a threat knot ball at the moment. Though, I wouldn't be so pessimistic as to suggest that the tier would be left to rot if we dealt with multiple suspect-worthy threats. It's healthy progress, you can't eat an elephant whole and you can't make progress advance too quickly or there could be oversights.

This metagame got an 8/10 last survey and no, Latios being banned would change next to nothing.
The most recent survey showed rather lackluster results compared to the last one, and a significant dissatisfaction with Latios in the current metagame, mind you. The overall results from the community were a mixed bag, and nowhere near as positive as an exaggerated 8/10 would suggest-- not to mention the fact that the only rating of the current metagame which was close to this was the average of a few qualified players rather than the entire playerbase, which is not an accurate estimate of the whole (though usually an informed one made by players that perform at higher levels of play in the tier). I have the same thing to say about the pessimism as before, it's healthy progress, and you wouldn't know how much things changed until after it is gone.

[EDIT]

Please don't exaggerate information from your source.
 
I've said my peace about this before, and wholeheartedly feel like the tier is in a threat knot ball at the moment. Though, I wouldn't be so pessimistic as to suggest that the tier would be left to rot if we dealt with multiple suspect-worthy threats. It's healthy progress, you can't eat an elephant whole and you can't make progress advance too quickly or there could be oversights.



The most recent survey showed rather lackluster results compared to the last one, and a significant dissatisfaction with Latios in the current metagame, mind you. The overall results from the community were a mixed bag, and nowhere near as positive as an exaggerated 8/10 would suggest-- not to mention the fact that the only rating of the current metagame which was close to this was the average of a few qualified players rather than the entire playerbase, which is not an accurate estimate of the whole (though usually an informed one made by players that perform at higher levels of play in the tier). I have the same thing to say about the pessimism as before, it's healthy progress, and you wouldn't know how much things changed until after it is gone.

[EDIT]

Please don't exaggerate information from your source.
I think you bring up a really good point. A lot of my own frustrations with the meta generally come from that messy first Latios suspect test and I think that this tier has felt like a dog chasing its own tail for quite a while now, which is a really bad problem to have when you're a competitive format for a game that's only like five months old lmao. I guess stuff like this can be hard to predict, too. Once Latios is (hopefully) gone, there will probably be another oppressive offensive threat, but that mon's exact effects can't really be determined right now because the bigger fish is literally being fried right now.

With that being said, I'm not entirely opposed to a more offensively oriented tier if it's not as unhealthy as it is right now. Gen 4 quite frankly didn't have such powerful defensive strategies as are available in the more recent crop of mons, and I don't necessarily see that disposition leaving BDSP
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
Could the Latios suspect test and likely ban salvage what little is left of this tier? Or, will the prevalence and rise of yet another oppressive offensive threat (of which there are quite a few that could take the lead) lead to a few more haphazard suspect tests until nobody cares anymore and the tier is left to rot.
Well, it's definitely a starting point into healing this tier, since it would be a less offensive presence to teambuild for, especially considering how certain sets are basically alive just thanks to a combination of either two of Latios/Alakazam/Weavile
Just checking two of them instead of three would open different sets and less reliance on Scizor to do it, for instance
It won't fix the problems instantly, either, because in my humble opinion there's still work to be done, but it's definitely the right step ahead into lessening the burden this tier currently feels.
 
Could the Latios suspect test and likely ban salvage what little is left of this tier? Or, will the prevalence and rise of yet another oppressive offensive threat (of which there are quite a few that could take the lead) lead to a few more haphazard suspect tests until nobody cares anymore and the tier is left to rot.
I don't know if my point leads anywhere. It's maybe too pessimistic but I don't think the metagame can be fixed in the short term.
GF has achieved (zmoves gigamax kappa) a balance over time in terms of defensive and offensive potential. This does not happen in BSDP due to a basic problem: offensive resources are MUCH superior to defensive ones.
Gengar was broken. Latios is broken. Zam is broken. Scizor (consequently) is kinda broken...
I think we could be testing and banning offensive threats forever. Garchomp will be the new Latios. Breloom will go insane etc, etc...
The fact that they have been provided with moves such as Nasty Plot, Psyshock, Scald etc, abut also defensive mons not having many resources (no good defensive items + many walls can't learn good recovery moves) makes it extremely difficult to converge towards stability between styles.
My point is: do we really have a need to fix each and every metagame to the point where it becomes extremely distorted? I think it was a wise move to ban Gengar because he was really oppressive, but should we keep trying to fix an alternate metagame that has fundamental issues?

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 317-374 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
I don't know if my point leads anywhere. It's maybe too pessimistic but I don't think the metagame can be fixed in the short term.
GF has achieved (zmoves gigamax kappa) a balance over time in terms of defensive and offensive potential. This does not happen in BSDP due to a basic problem: offensive resources are MUCH superior to defensive ones.
Gengar was broken. Latios is broken. Zam is broken. Scizor (consequently) is kinda broken...
I think we could be testing and banning offensive threats forever. Garchomp will be the new Latios. Breloom will go insane etc, etc...
The fact that they have been provided with moves such as Nasty Plot, Psyshock, Scald etc, abut also defensive mons not having many resources (no good defensive items + many walls can't learn good recovery moves) makes it extremely difficult to converge towards stability between styles.
My point is: do we really have a need to fix each and every metagame to the point where it becomes extremely distorted? I think it was a wise move to ban Gengar because he was really oppressive, but should we keep trying to fix an alternate metagame that has fundamental issues?

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 317-374 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While I think you do bring up a good point, offensive resources being more powerful than defensive resources was the case in gen 4 with the crop of mons, though to a lesser extent. There's a lot of brokenness with the crop of offensive mons, I agree, but most of the arguments that I've seen for banning Latios aren't that it's broken (it is, but mainly indirectly) but that it's needlessly restrictive and unhealthy for the tier. That's the opinion that I most identify with. When it comes to powerful offensive mons, I do think it should be taken on a case-by-case basis and not just trying to ban the offensive powerhouses because they make bulky balance struggle.
 

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
:infernape: :dp/infernape: :infernape:
You know, Infernape is already a good mon, but it always had the problem of being a just bit slower than Latios while also not being able to spam its stabs as freely as anyone wants, i see the monkey sun king as one of the biggest winners of this change, unless everyone does default to Latias now and use the same teams with her instead as the higher bulk is annoying, but is much easier to handle so is not that big of a problem, both her and Latios didnt really switch in that well, is more about having one faster mon less to worry about. One of the bests mons got a bit better.

:azumarill: :dp/Azumarill: :azumarill: :breloom: :dp/breloom: :breloom:
Also, check your team doesnt become weak to priority now that one of the reasons bd azumarill and sd breloom werent as popular as they should is gone, but again, Latias kind of does the job just fine so may not much change as long as she can keep up with the expectatives of being "latios but balanced".

In the other hand, more passive mons now have a set up sweeper less to worry about, like the slowtwins who were already good after the gengar ban.
 
While I think you do bring up a good point, offensive resources being more powerful than defensive resources was the case in gen 4 with the crop of mons, though to a lesser extent. There's a lot of brokenness with the crop of offensive mons, I agree, but most of the arguments that I've seen for banning Latios aren't that it's broken (it is, but mainly indirectly) but that it's needlessly restrictive and unhealthy for the tier. That's the opinion that I most identify with. When it comes to powerful offensive mons, I do think it should be taken on a case-by-case basis and not just trying to ban the offensive powerhouses because they make bulky balance struggle.
My criteria when deciding if a Pokémon is broken usually has more to do with the pressure it exerts outside of the game than in the battle itself. That is, how much I have it in mind when building teams. Latios is a clear example of Pokémon that greatly influence the composition of a team. Latios is (was) a clear example of this: Zor/Zong/Rachi were a must in every balanced/BO team. And Latios paired with Magne/Ape also forced you to help your steel type with some other coverage.
That been said, my point was more about what's coming next. I feel like Zam will be the next one (Scizor will stay with 60-70% usage as the main answer since Blissey is 2KOed w rocks and LO Psyshock). And then Weavile. And then Chomp. Etc.
As I said in my previous post, I think I'm being a bit pessimistic, but maybe we have to assume that this tier will always be offensively oriented it has waaaaaaay too much gunpowder..
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
I'm very happy by the outcome and can only imagine what will happen to the tier from now on, but now we have one less offensive threat to contend on, and we can focus on other imminent problems;
For me there are still two Pokémon that need a solid answer: :alakazam: and :weavile:. Both two are at the top of their strength right now, since Alakazam has less competition to go for and a much better offensive presence than any non-Azelf Psychic-type, while Weavile has virtually no switch-ins outside of Heatran, Infernape and Poliwrath; although with the departure of Latios, Scizor can be optimized to beat both at the same time, they are still very powerful presences that need to be accounted for at every stage of the game, so I'm very curious to see what will happen.

Also, while :latias: isn't a direct replacement, it's still a good Pokémon that can fit most roles Latios did (and has Stored Power and Healing WIsh over Latios, too), without being a super solid breaker like Latios was, overall feeling the lack of immediate power (still a ton, eh) when you're not clicking Meteor.

I don't personally think the meta will change MUCH, but it's definitely getting shaken over losing one of the most formidable presences in the metagame (to point the obvious, even tournament people caught onto Latios by being the second one in usage in two BDSPPL weeks, for instance) and it will be fun to see how popular structures (breaker spam, dragmag, double psychic) will react to it
 

igiveuponaname

A face in a cloud no trace in the crowd.
is a Community Contributor
Let's talk about Lanturn a bit, shall we?

:ss/lanturn:

Lanturn is a very unassuming pokemon, it currently resides in NU, isn't ranked on the OU viability ranking, and it only has 0.01% usage in OU, according to the latest usage stats. It's very easy to understand why that is, its base stats, aside from its astounding base 125 HP, are all below 80, and it's a bulky water type without recovery outside of Rest and Leftovers. To add further insult to injury, it is generally outclassed by the amazing Rotom-Wash, who shares the same typing as Lanturn, has an amazing ability in Levitate, which gives it a Ground immunity, is currently placed at S- on the OU viability rankings, and saw 29% usage in the latest usage stats. Yet despite all of that, I believe Lanturn to be overlooked as an amazing check to pokemon such as :starmie:, :magnezone:, :heatran:, and even :rotom-wash:. Why is that? Because despite the aforementioned flaws, it has a unique set of characteristics which set it apart from the competition and provide a valuable, albeit specific, niche in the metagame.

:bw/lanturn:
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch

For starters, let's look at the set shown above. Max HP and max SpDef investment allows Lanturn to switch into attacks from LO Starmie and Specs Zone as well as possible. Volt Absorb means that Lanturn can freely switch in on Thunderbolts from Starmie and Zone, as well as blocking Zone's Volt Switch attempts. Lanturn is also capable of switching in and taking non-Electric attacks from these two as well, even when boosted by Analytic. The only attacks Lanturn truly fears from these two are the rather uncommon Psychic from Starmie, as well as Tri Attack from the uncommon Analytic Magnezone.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 109-129 (24 - 28.4%) -- 22.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 177-211 (38.9 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 160-189 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This ability to switch into these powerful attacks sets Lanturn apart from Rotom-Wash, who even with max HP and SpDef investment, lacks the sheer bulk that Lanturn provides, as well as its immunity to Electric attacks, meaning Zone can freely Volt Switch on an incoming Rotom-Wash who was expecting a Flash Cannon.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Now, I know what you're probably thinking. Why use Lanturn to check these mons when stuff like SpDef :gastrodon:, :blissey:, and :shedinja: exist? To which I say, you have a good point. After all, :gastrodon: boasts both an immunity to Water and Electric, as well as access to Recover, meaning it can switch into Starmie and Zone even easier than Lanturn, as well as play the long game. :blissey:, while not immune to Electric moves, boasts incredible special bulk, meaning it can switch into these attacks with ease and heal them off with Soft-Boiled. :shedinja: is self-explanatory, it's immune to everything Starmie and Zone can throw at it. All of these are amazing qualities to have, but they also have various issues. :shedinja: is the most self-explanatory once again, it will die if you look at it the wrong way. Passive damage and its weakness laden typing means that the Starmie or Zone user can plan out a way to eliminate Shedinja before it hits the field. :blissey: is incredibly passive and would likely need to spend a turn healing off the damage it has taken in order to be able to check these threats in the long term. On top of that, it risks getting trapped and removed from the game by Heatran. :gastrodon: fares the best of these three, but it still has its flaws. Unlike Lanturn, it doesn't resist Starmie's Ice Beam, meaning it can get decently chunked if the Starmie user predicts correctly. Gastrodon will also need to spend a turn using Recover in order to be able to check Starmie in the long term, giving the opponent a free turn to swap to another pokemon, such as :breloom:.

This is where :lanturn:'s second great quality comes in, its access to Volt Switch. When you inevitably bring your Lanturn in on a choiced Electric attack from the likes of Zone and Rotom-Wash, you're going to want to keep the momentum going, and what better way to do that than with Volt Switch? You'd dissuade Ground types such as :gliscor: or :garchomp: from switching in with the threat of hitting them with Ice Beam, or with the threat of being burned by Scald. This will allow you to get a team member on the field practically for free, letting you keep the pressure on the opponent. That is the main problem with the checks mentioned in the paragraph above, they end up being passive and give the opponent free turns to do as they please. Lanturn is the opposite of passive thanks to Volt Switch and Scald.

Now that Lanturn's great qualities have been discussed, how can you help support it? If you want to keep your Lanturn alive for as long as possible, Wish support from the likes of :clefable: is your best bet. This will give Lanturn recovery outside of Leftovers and Volt Absorb, which it will want if you're going to be playing the long game. A bulky Ground resist such as :tangrowth: would also work alongside Lanturn, providing it the backup it needs against Ground types who successfully manage to make their way onto the field. Lanturn would thus fit onto bulkier team styles such as balance, where it can work alongside its teammates in order to check the many dangerous offensive threats in the metagame.

There are other small changes that can be made to :lanturn: when making your team. At its most basic, I believe it should always have max HP and some SpDef investment. 28 EVs into Speed let Lanturn outspeed uninvested :skarmory:, and you can slot in TBolt over TWave if you want a stronger Electric attack. For its moveset, Scald and Volt Switch are a must IMO, since those two moves allow Lanturn to keep the pressure on the opponent, even without any SpAtk investment. Protect can be used over TWave if you want in order to scout choice locked mons, as well as get a bit more Leftovers recovery. Aside from that, there's not much you can swap around in terms of movepool, Whirlpool would be okay I guess, and Eerie Impulse could be funny alongside it, but that seems like more of a gimmick than anything.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1571431933-nw2n23pps97prfhopjqzcy0nd3yipkjpw (Vs Magnezone)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1571250792 (Vs Starmie)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1571366907 (Vs Starmie)

Above are three replays which I believe show the basics of using Lanturn in OU. I'll admit, the replays are not the best examples, but I am simply here to discuss what I believe to be an underrated, genuine niche pick in the metagame. Perhaps a much more skilled and knowledgeable player could wield Lanturn with much better efficacy, but I'll let you guys be the judge of that. (Also I swear whenever I load up my Lanturn team, Starmie and Zone usage plummets, took forever to get these games)

Edit: I realize now I should have probably posted the team used in the replays. Here it is: https://pokepast.es/e520e1c772bb31a3
 
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Some things i'll be trying out post-latios

:bw/salamence:
Salamence @ Choice Specs
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump
- Roost

Haven't tried this yet but on paper it looks good?? There's no need for moxie mence here so i kinda just went intimidate and roost as a 4th move.

:bw/scizor:
Scizor @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- U-turn

Yup, max def scizor the fake weavile check!!!!!

:bw/gliscor:
Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 92 SpD / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Defog
- Roost
- U-turn

Has nothing to do with latios being banned and has everything to do with nidoking as 172 allows it to outspeed it and revenge it with Earthquake, although eq only does like 60 so only do it if you have some way to chip nido into this range, then catch it by suprise​
 

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