Metagame BDSP LC (New bans/unbans @ post #33)

BDSP LC
BDSP LC is where all your first stage pals from BDSP can duke it out. This thread will be the primary hub for all resources, suspect tests, quickbans and metagame discussion for the format.

RULES
Mechanics:
Battle mechanics are identical to those in Pokemon Sword and Shield, with the exception of Dynamax being removed. Any items introduced after Generation 4 with in-battle effects, excluding Pixie Plate and Roseli Berry, are unavailable.
Clauses: Smogon-wide Clauses apply.
Available Pokemon: Pokemon are allowed if they are level 5, first stage in an evolutionary line, and have national dex number #001-493.
Bans:
  • Pokemon: Gligar, Meditite, Misdreavus, Munchlax, Murkrow, Scyther, Sneasel, Tangela, Vulpix, Yanma
  • Moves: Baton Pass, Sticky Webs
  • Abilities: Moody

RESOURCES
Viability Ranking
Sample Teams & Sample Sets
Role Comp
Speed Tiers
The resources are in a preliminary state and will be updated and improved as the metagame is explored further.

Council:
Kodiak_45
Laroxyl

OTHER RESOURCES
Fille's Teambuilding Guide


Please don't make extremely short posts and/or simple questions! These will be deleted. Use the Discord or Simple Questions thread, both of which are linked below.

BDSP Simple Questions, Simple Answers
BDSP Metagames Discord
 
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Fille

Afk
is a Pre-Contributor
LCPL Champion
Viability Rankings

These rankings are meant to represent how viable various Pokemon are in the metagame. Especially given the new nature of the tier, these will likely change as the metagame is developed further.


S Tier

:Abra: Abra
:Drifloon: Drifloon

A+ Tier

:gastly: Gastly
:Magnemite: Magnemite

A Tier

:Carvanha: Carvanha
:Diglett: Diglett
:Machop: Machop
:Onix: Onix

A- Tier

:Croagunk: Croagunk
:koffing: Koffing
:taillow: Taillow

B+ Tier

:Corphish: Corphish
:Mankey: Mankey
:Porygon: Porygon
:Snubbull: Snubbull

B Tier
:Aipom: Aipom
:Chinchou: Chinchou
:Clamperl: Clamperl
:Kabuto: Kabuto
:Omanyte: Omanyte
:Ponyta: Ponyta
:Shellder: Shellder
:Trapinch: Trapinch

B- Tier

:Bellsprout: Bellsprout
:Elekid: Elekid
:Meowth: Meowth
:Oddish: Oddish
:Snover: Snover
:Stunky: Stunky
:Teddiursa: Teddiursa
:Wingull: Wingull

C Tier

:Anorith: Anorith
:Bronzor: Bronzor
:Budew: Budew
:Chimchar: Chimchar
:Cranidos: Cranidos
:Doduo: Doduo
:Hippopotas: Hippopotas
:Houndour: Houndour
:Krabby: Krabby
:Lileep: Lileep
:Mantyke: Mantyke
:Natu: Natu
:Pineco: Pineco
:Poliwag: Poliwag
:Riolu: Riolu
:Sandshrew: Sandshrew
:Slowpoke: Slowpoke
:Squirtle: Squirtle
:Starly: Starly
:Staryu: Staryu
:Tentacool: Tentacool
:Torchic: Torchic
:Voltorb: Voltorb
:Wynaut: Wynaut
:Zigzagoon: Zigzagoon
 
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Role Compendium
This compendium shows what Pokemon can be used to satify various role on the team. More sections are on the way and less viable Pokemon will be removed from here.

Hazards & Removal
Stealth Rock :Anorith::Aron::Baltoy::Bronzor::Chimchar::Cranidos::Diglett::Hippopotas::Kabuto::Lileep::Nosepass::Numel::Omanyte::Onix::Piplup::Sandshrew::Turtwig:
Spikes :Budew::Cacnea::Omanyte::Pineco::Snorunt:
Toxic Spikes :Koffing::Nidoran-F::Nidoran-M::Omanyte::Pineco::Skorupi::Spinarak::Venonat:

Defog :Drifloon::Finneon::Piplup::Stunky::Taillow::Wingull:
Rapid Spin :Anorith::Baltoy::Kabuto::Pineco::Sandshrew::Shellder::Squirtle::Tentacool:
Spin Blockers :Drifloon::Duskull::Gastly::Shuppet:
T Spike Absorbers :Bellsprout::Budew::Bulbasaur::Croagunk::Ekans::Koffing: (Non-Levitate):Oddish::Skorupi::Spinarak::Stunky::Tentacool:

Field Effects & Abusers
Screeners :Abra::Baltoy::Bronzor::Chikorita::Drowzee::Exeggcute::Magnemite::Mime Jr.::Natu::Pineco::Smoochum::Staryu::Turtwig:

Sun Setters :Anorith::Diglett::Onix: (Sunny Day) :Riolu: (Prankster Sunny Day)
Sun Abusers :Charmander: (Solar Power) :Bellsprout::Bulbasaur::Cherubi::Exeggcute::Oddish: (Chlorophyll)

Rain Setters :Mantyke::Omanyte: (Rain Dance) :Riolu: (Prankster Rain Dance)
Rain Abusers :Anorith::Buizel::Finneon::Goldeen::Horsea::Kabuto::Mantyke::Omanyte::Poliwag::Psyduck::Surskit:(Swift Swim)

Hail Setters :Snover: (Snow Warning)
Hail Abusers: N/A

Sand Setters :Hippopotas: (Sand Stream) :Anorith::Diglett::Onix:
Sand Abusers :Sandshrew: (Sand Rush) :Diglett::Nosepass::Shellos: (Sand Force)

Item Removers
Knock Off :Abra::Anorith::Bellsprout::Corphish::Kabuto::Krabby::Lickitung::Machop::Omanyte::Shuppet::Skorupi::Tentacool::Wingull:
Thief :Abra::Aipom::Bellsprout::Carvanha::Cranidos::Croagunk::Diglett::Doduo::Drifloon::Duskull::Ekans::Elekid::Exeggcute::Gastly::Glameow::Houndour::Kabuto::Koffing::Lickitung::Machop::Magby::Mankey::Meowth::Mime Jr.::Natu::Omanyte::Paras::Porygon::Rattata::Sandshrew::Skorupi::Snubbull::Spinarak::Stunky::Surskit::Taillow::Teddiursa::Voltorb::Zigzagoon:
Covet :Aipom::Cyndaquil::Growlithe::Mankey::Meowth::Teddiursa::Zigzagoon:

Offensive Setup
Belly Drum :Charmander::Cubone::Lickitung::Magby::Poliwag::Slowpoke::Teddiursa::Zigzagoon:
Shell Smash :Clamperl::Omanyte::Shellder::Squirtle:
Dragon Dance :Bagon::Barboach::Charmander::Corphish::Dratini::Horsea::Larvitar::Totodile:
Sword Dance :Anorith::Bellsprout::Cacnea::Charmander::Corphish::Cranidos::Cubone::Doduo::Goldeen::Krabby::Lickitung::Lileep::Oddish::Riolu::Sandshrew::Skorupi::Snover::Teddiursa::Tentacool::Torchic::Totodile:
Nasty Plot :Cacnea::Chimchar::Croagunk::Houndour::Meowth::Mime Jr.::Riolu::Stunky:

Priority
Fake Out :Aipom::Buneary::Chimchar::Croagunk::Glameow::Meowth::Mime Jr.::Squirtle:
Extreme Speed :Dratini::Zigzagoon:
Quick Attack :Buneary::Cyndaquil::Doduo::Elekid::Glameow::Natu::Rattata::Riolu::Surskit::Taillow::Torchic::Trapinch::Wingull:
Aqua Jet :Anorith::Carvanha::Corphish::Dratini::Kabuto::Squirtle::Surskit::Totodile:
Mach Punch :Magby:
Sucker Punch :Cacnea::Croagunk::Diglett::Ekans::Gastly::Glameow::Houndour::Mime Jr.::Natu::Rattata::Spinarak::Stunky:

Trappers
Arena Trap :Diglett::Trapinch:
Shadow Tag :Wynaut:

Scarfers
Physical :Machop::Mankey::Krabby::Cranidos:
Special :Gastly::Houndour:
 
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Speed Tiers

Tier 0 (32+ Speed)
Speed StatPokemonBase SpeedNatureBoostEVs
38Aipom, Buizel, Buneary85+Speed+2236
36Buizel85Neutral+2236
34Carvanha, Chinchou, Drifloon, Goldeen, Surskit63–70+Speed+2252 (63 Spe), 236 (65 Spe), 220 (67 Spe), 196 (70 Spe)
34Anorith, Doduo75Neutral+2236
32Kabuto, Cranidos, Horsea55–60+Speed+2236 (55 Spe), 212 (58 Spe), 196 (60 Spe)
32Carvanha, Drifloon, Goldeen, Surskit63–70Neutral+2252 (63 Spe), 236 (65 Spe), 196 (70 Spe)

Tier 1 (21 - 30 Speed)
Speed StatPokemonBase SpeedNatureBoostEVs
30Diglett, Voltorb, Elekid95–100+Speed+1236 (95 Spe), 196 (100 Spe)
30Drifloon70Neutral+2116
30Kabuto, Cranidos, Horsea55–58Neutral+2212 (58 Spe), 196 (60 Spe), 236 (65 Spe)
30Dratini, Mantyke, Bulbasaur45-50+Speed+2236 (45 Spe), 196 (50 Spe)
28Diglett, Voltorb, Elekid95–100Neutral+1236 (95 Spe), 196 (100 Spe)
28Abra, Ponyta, Staryu, Magby83–90+Speed+1252 (83 Spe), 236 (85 Spe), 196 (90 Spe)
28Dratini, Krabby, Mantyke50Neutral+2196
28Exeggcute, Omanyte, Larvitar, Bellsprout, Cubone, Corphish35–41+Speed+235 (236 ), 40 (196 ), 41 (188 )
28Anorith, Gastly, Stunky74–80+Speed+174 (244 ), 75 (236 ), 80 (196 )
27Abra, Ponyta, Staryu, Magby83–90Neutral+1252 (83 Spe), 236 (85 Spe), 196 (90 Spe)
26Exeggcute, Omanyte, Larvitar, Bellsprout, Cubone35–41Neutral+2236 (35 Spe), 196 (40 Spe), 188 (41 Spe)
26Paras, Rhyhorn, Oddish, Aron25–30+Speed+2236 (25 Spe), 196 (30 Spe)
26Drifloon70Neutral+2None
26Gastly, Stunky74–80Neutral+1244 (74 Spe), 196 (80 Spe)
25Mankey, Cyndaquil, Houndour, Remoraid, Drifloon, Carvanha, Spoink, Onix, Chinchou65–70+Speed+1196 (60 Spe), 236 (65 Spe), 220 (67 Spe), 196 (70 Spe)
24Mankey, Cyndaquil, Houndour, Remoraid, Drifloon, Carvanha65–70+Speed+1236 (65 Spe), 196 (70 Spe)
24Eevee, Wailmer, Cranidos, Barboach55–60+Speed+1236 (55 Spe), 212 (58 Spe), 196 (60 Spe)
24Aron30Neutral+2196
22Eevee, Wailmer, Cranidos55–60Neutral+1236 (55 Spe), 212 (58 Spe), 196 (60 Spe)
22Magnemite, Krabby, Dratini, Bagon, Bulbasaur, Venonat45–50+Speed+1236 (45 Spe), 196 (50 Spe)
21Magnemite, Krabby, Dratini, Bagon, Bulbasaur, Venonat45–50Neutral+1236 (45 Spe), 196 (50 Spe)
21Teddiursa, Porygon, Larvitar, Cacnea, Gible, Snover, Machop, Corphish35–42+Speed+1236 (35 Spe), 196 (40 Spe), 188 (41 Spe), 180 (42 Spe)

Tier 2 (15 - 20 Speed)
Speed StatPokemonBase SpeedNatureBoostEVs
20Diglett, Voltorb, Elekid95–100+SpeedNone236 (95 Spe), 196 (100 Spe)
19Abra, Aipom, Buneary, Buizel, Ponyta, Staryu, Meowth, Glameow, Poliwag, Taillow, Magby83–90+SpeedNone252 (83 Spe), 236 (85 Spe), 196 (90 Spe)
18Anorith, Gastly, Doduo75–80+SpeedNone236 (75 Spe), 196 (80 Spe)
17Chinchou, Mankey, Goldeen, Houndour, Smoochum, Drifloon, Carvanha, Surskit, Onix, Natu65–70+SpeedNone252 (63 Spe), 236 (65 Spe), 220 (67 Spe), 196 (70 Spe)
17Anorith, Gastly, Doduo75–80+SpeedNone236 (75 Spe), 196 (80 Spe)
16Eevee, Kabuto, Chimchar, Cranidos, Spoink, Horsea55–61+SpeedNone236 (55 Spe), 212 (58 Spe), 196 (60 Spe), 188 (61 Spe)
16Mankey, Goldeen, Houndour, Chinchou, Drifloon, Carvanha65–70NeutralNone252 (63 Spe), 236 (65 Spe), 220 (67 Spe) 196 (70 Spe)
15Magnemite, Swinub, Dratini, Bagon, Mantyke45–50+SpeedNone236 (45 Spe), 196 (50 Spe)
15Eevee, Kabuto, Chimchar, Cranidos, Squirtle, Horsea55–61NeutralNone236 (55 Spe), 212 (58 Spe), 196 (60 Spe), 188 (61 Spe)
15Drifloon70NeutralNone116

Tier 3 (4 - 14 Speed)
Speed StatPokemonBase SpeedNatureBoostEVs
14Teddiursa, Porygon, Larvitar, Shroomish, Cacnea, Gible, Snover, Machop, Corphish, Cubone, Exeggcute, Omanyte, Bellsprout35–42+SpeedNone236 (35 Spe), 196 (40 Spe), 188 (41 Spe), 180 (42 Spe)
14Magnemite, Swinub, Dratini, Bagon, Mantyke, Croagunk, Krabby45–50NeutralNone236 (45 Spe), 196 (50 Spe)
14Barboach60NeutralNone116
13Rhyhorn, Oddish, Aron25–30+SpeedNone236 (25 Spe), 196 (30 Spe)
13Porygon, Larvitar, Cacnea, Gible, Snover, Corphish, Cubone, Exeggcute, Omanyte, Bellsprout35–42NeutralNone236 (35 Spe), 196 (40 Spe), 188 (41 Spe), 180 (42 Spe)
13Onix, Chinchou, Tentacool, Stunky67–74NeutralNone220 (67 Spe), 196 (70 Spe), 220 (74 Spe)
12Paras25+SpeedNone236
12Rhyhorn, Oddish, Aron25–30NeutralNone236 (25 Spe), 196 (30 Spe)
12Spoink, Wailmer, Kabuto55–60NeutralNoneNone
11Trapinch10+SpeedNone196
11Krabby, Shuppet, Mantyke45–50NeutralNoneNone
10Numel, Shroomish, Squirtle, Snover, Machop, Cubone, Phanpy, Koffing35–40NeutralNoneNone
9Aron, Paras, Lickitung, Rhyhorn, Makuhita, Duskull, Hippopotas, Grimer, Nosepass25–32NeutralNoneNone
9Cranidos, Wailmer58–60-SpeedNoneNone
8Azurill, Lileep, Wynaut, Bronzor, Wooper20–23NeutralNoneNone
8Shuppet45-SpeedNone0IV
7Trapinch, Munchlax5–10NeutralNoneNone
6Bronzor, Duskull23–25-SpeedNone0IV
5Trapinch10-SpeedNone0IV

Huge thanks to Just a Bee for adapting the DPP LC speed tiers done by eric the espeon to make this.
 
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The initial banlist for the tier was made by Fiend and consisted of Gligar, Meditite, Murkrow, Scyther, Sneasel, Tangela, and Yanma.

In the week leading up the the BDSP LC Kickoff tour, council and others have played matches to explore the tier. After this initial exploration, we have decided to quickban Misdreavus and Vulpix. Ban reasoning for Vulpix will be added soon.

Regarding why we have decided to ban Vulpix and not Chlorophyll, this is mainly because we wanted to keep in line with the history of Little Cup bans and avoid complex bans by banning a Pokemon rather than an ability. If we find that Chlorophyll remains broken with manual sun, we may reconsider this in the future.
PokemonAlkioneCorporal LeviEveFilleHSOWAmegatyler30
Misdreavus​
Ban (reasoning)​
Ban (reasoning)​
Abstain​
Ban (reasoning)​
Ban (reasoning)​
Abstain (reasoning)​
Vulpix​
Ban​
Ban (reasoning)​
Abstain​
Ban (reasoning)​
Ban​
Ban (reasoning)​
As can be seen, Misdreavus was banned with a 4-0-2 vote and Vulpix with a 5-0-1 vote.
 
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Berks

has a Calm Mind
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
reposted from my post in the tournament thread:

hey so, just wanted to suggest that we ban zigzagoon right off the bat? there is no eviolite so the only things that beat a set up ziggy with rocks or a spike up are:

- Ghosts at or above 16 Speed :gastly: :drifloon:
- Normal resists at or above 16 Speed :onix: :cranidos:
- Scarfed Normal resists :magnemite:
- Stray Flame Body burns :ponyta:
- Sash Abra :abra:
- Fake Out revenge killing :aipom: :meowth: :croagunk:

Anything else dies to ESpeed / Thief / Dig on Zigzagoon, and switching out of Dig means you need something to switch into Dig, which means something would die anyways. SturdyJuice users slower than 16 Speed (all of them except Onix) get their Berry Juice stolen, so they don't work.

Ziggy is really easy to set up considering that there is some really good Memento support between already good mons like Diglett, Vulpix, Stunky, and Drifloon, among others.

All of the winning mons I listed are good mons, so the force of ziggy might not be too crazy, but there's only 10 mons up there, and only Gastly, Drifloon, Onix, Magnemite, and Sash Abra are guaranteed wins 1v1 considering the potential Cran speed tie if not scarfed and the fact that Flame Body is a 30% burn and Pony might even prefer Flash Fire. Not to mention, all of those except the ghosts and some of the Fake Out revengers are trappable by Trapinch.

Zigzagoon should not be allowed in this format, thank you.
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
reposted from my post in the tournament thread:

hey so, just wanted to suggest that we ban zigzagoon right off the bat? there is no eviolite so the only things that beat a set up ziggy with rocks or a spike up are:

- Ghosts at or above 16 Speed :gastly: :drifloon:
- Normal resists at or above 16 Speed :onix: :cranidos:
- Scarfed Normal resists :magnemite:
- Stray Flame Body burns :ponyta:
- Sash Abra :abra:
- Fake Out revenge killing :aipom: :meowth: :croagunk:

Anything else dies to ESpeed / Thief / Dig on Zigzagoon, and switching out of Dig means you need something to switch into Dig, which means something would die anyways. SturdyJuice users slower than 16 Speed (all of them except Onix) get their Berry Juice stolen, so they don't work.

Ziggy is really easy to set up considering that there is some really good Memento support between already good mons like Diglett, Vulpix, Stunky, and Drifloon, among others.

All of the winning mons I listed are good mons, so the force of ziggy might not be too crazy, but there's only 10 mons up there, and only Gastly, Drifloon, Onix, Magnemite, and Sash Abra are guaranteed wins 1v1 considering the potential Cran speed tie if not scarfed and the fact that Flame Body is a 30% burn and Pony might even prefer Flash Fire. Not to mention, all of those except the ghosts and some of the Fake Out revengers are trappable by Trapinch.

Zigzagoon should not be allowed in this format, thank you.
tbh I'd agree if not for the fact that the Pokémon that all deal with Zig are basically on every competent team, unlike SS LC where all the useful counterplay died and it also had more coverage there (here you just have to Thief things away if you can)
I'm more overall on the idea that screens right now are busted and not just Zig, but we'll see going forward
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
Alright, I'm ready to throw off my two cents about the tier so far, and I wanna start with: HOLY JESUS THANKS LAX FOR EXISTING

Seriously, :munchlax: is a godsend to splash on most teams, a potential win condition and it wont go down easily, and although people figured out quickly you can just Knock Off its item to get rid of Munch, you still potentially need to trade in order to do so; that being said, while Lax is definitely centralizing, it's just a healthy force of the metagame and without Eviolite it lost every resemblance of physical bulk, falling off easily on this tier's powerful breakers, not to mention two of the S tiers can just nullify its presence completely. Definitely solid, definitely S rank, but also definitely the healthiest of them.

:gastly:: Well, Ghosts in BDSP are broken, and nothing in this tier would change Gastly's usual dominance over other Pokèmon; solid (but not perfect) 18 Speed tier, good power and a lot of tricks in its bag are still making it one of the premier offensive presences to roam the tier, be Orb or Scarf; unfortunately, there's a Ghost type better than it, and it's still incredibly frail and won't last long at all, prone to getting revengekilled a lot by the other 3 S-tiers, the Sturdyjuiced, and generally it's just better handled by also its poor STAB combo not making it many favours.

:abra:: I can't emphasize enough how a LOT of matches are basically chess matches with Sash Abra as your king. If you thought Ghost was a good offensive typing, Psychic is even better since Eviolite is gone and there's genuinely not a single good Steel in this tier, and so it frees Abra's moveslots, with HUGE benefits over the possibilty of running specialized coverage moves (Shadow Ball for ghosts, Energy Ball for the water breakers, the much coveted Knock Off, Encore, Protect, Taunt, Teleport and much more). Sash Abra is genuinely your free out of jail card for at least a good 3/4 of the threats in this metagame, and Sash Abra's fate will make or break a match. To top it off, you can also just opt of running Orb Abra and just ruin every possible switchin, but honestly I think it's not worth it in this Berry Juiced metagame, since Abra has always the tendency to go for 2HKOs and leave people alive enough so they can hit you, not to mention speed control is huge here. Another super centralizing threat, but still a Pokémon with great utility and a fantastic STAB that are very welcome in this metagame.

:drifloon:: While I can bear the prior three, this is another can of worms. Drifloon's speciality set is still here, better than ever, and if you don't have a SPECIFIC select of Pokémon you can't hope to stop Drifloon from Hexing you with its 30+ Speed. WoW - Hex - Sub - Recycle is just a godsend and you're usually just forced to sack whatever you have in front, forbid our Scarf Fightings to never click the STAB, and forcing you to use Lax + some Dark type in other to not lose half your team trying to stop this specific dumbass. Aside from some Sucker Punch here and there (which you can hope to stall too, since Diglett can't even trap you) and Carvanha (with Dark Pulse), nobody outspeeds Drifloon naturally, and the only two Pokèmon that can do so need rain or to dodge burns, and while Lax can eat the Hexes, Lax itself can't do anything except getting burned and spamming Bites, STILL crippling a Pokèmon at the very least, and ending the game at the best. This, with no means of Speed Control capable of dealing with it and Drifloon's set being extremely easy to activate and bring to full potential (just run something like WoW Gastly for ghostspam, or Toxic Spikes, since we have almost no removers), makes me really pointing out to a Drifloon ban in the near future; if your Drifloon isn't performing in your game, you're playing it wrong.

That aside, I like the current state of this tier and it's genuinely way funnier than SS LC will ever hope to be, and I like how different archetypes of teams can exist while still being fast-paced overall; Onix being our premier Stealth Rock setter to the point people always try to antilead it, Screens HO with some dummy breakers (ESPECIALLY Water breakers), Sticky Web abusers getting showcased in a otherwise very fast-Pokemon-reliant metagame, Lax, Sturdyjuicers and Pokémon like Snubbull and Koffing making our defensive backbones with all the tools brought out from the last couple of generations are really a fresh breath of air, something that I didn't feel from a long time in LC. My only nitpick is that I believe Drifloon is too much, and the tier is already starting to warp around it, and I think Drifloon should be eventually get banned, either via quick or suspect.
I don't think other Pokémon or strategies are unhealthy for the metagame as for now (also re: Zig, since Zig needs a team supporting it and Gastly still exists, other than Zig losing every kind of coverage it had except for Thief, which doesn't really help most of its matchup anyway. Could change my idea later on, but still, and manual weather being just kind of ass overall, while Sticky Webs are still threatening but Surskit losing to the most common leads of the metagame is really hurting), and I'm having a lot of fun so far tbh. Bless up Fille and megatyler30 for carrying the tier on their backs!
 

Fille

Afk
is a Pre-Contributor
LCPL Champion
BDSPLC Teambuilding Guide
(With title in a weird shade because I can't afford a banner)


Just here to drop a semi-quick introduction to teambuilding in BDSP LC. LC has always been a very centralized metagame, where you can usually drop the same 4 mons on every single team with little to no variation and just drop in 2 extra fillers for bizazz or spice, but BDSP LC doesn't actually have Mienfoo, Vullaby, Foongus or Mareanie. Worry not though, because we've already established a different top 4! (Exclaimer, I do not think every Gen 5-8 LC team has both Foongus and Mareanie, or even Vullaby since that shit banned.)

Note that there are probably better teambuilding guides out there on how to build with wincons and type charts in mind, so this guide will mainly be focusing on the elements specific to BDSPLC.

:Surskit: Team Style :koffing:

While most playstyles are viable (Bar stall), prominent team archetypes that have won multiple games both on ladder and in the tournament are Hyper Offensive teams based around Webs or Screens, as well as bulkier teams built around a bulky backbone or simply Toxic Spikes. Balanced and regular Offense are both viable archetypes and should not be disregarded, but they also tend to be a bit trickier in style to break down without first getting a basic look on these main 4 styles and how they work, as well as the common mons you will see on each of them.

:surskit:Sticky Web:surskit:

Notable options: :surskit: |:abra::gastly::drifloon::magnemite::taillow::corphish::croagunk::machop::snubbull::onix:
First of all, yes, you may have had some success with Spinarak, but Surskit will give you a 100% success ratio so get rid of the arguably cuter option and use the blue Onion. Choice Scarf Surskit outspeeds any non-choiced mon, with only 1 common scarfer being faster (and irrelevant as a lead), and most notably avoiding any multi-hit moves from opposing leads that may result in an OHKO. With that being said Sash still has relevance and is still superior to Spinarak.

Now after having set up webs and likely had your Onion killed, there are really only 4 things one needs to have in mind while building.

#1 Preventing removal of webs. This is really simple in this meta, as there are few viable spinners and more or less no viable defoggers bar the occasional Wingull. Yes, S-Tier mon Drifloon gets it but it already suffers enough from 4mss. As of such, having a Ghost type as a spinblocker is all you need, and while Gastly may be likely to die to any coverage in existence, in most scenarios it'll only need to live 1 spin attempt as a webs team should have at most 1 mon that spinners can spin on given the right conditions, whereas the rest of the team should be able to one-shot said spinners. This does not mean that Gastly or Drifloons sole role should be to spinblock, as they are both incredible mons in their own rights with Gastly being a prevalent Life Orb attacker and Drifloon being the best mon in the tier, but should the situation require so then they can both be sacced to prevent a spinner from removing webs. Drifloon and Gastly are hence both fantastic options on webs, and either of them should be on every relevant webs team, even if it doesn't necessary require a spinblocker cause truthfully, they're just that good.
:drifloon::gastly:
#2 Webs abusers. Typically throughout LC gens you'll see a Life Orb Abra and Gastly as the two main abusers, as not even scarfers outspeeds them under Webs. These 2 still hold true as good wincons and breakers, but with no Eviolite, Life Orb is actually not as necessary here, although certainly it does help with bulky mons such as Munchlax. Other good breakers are typically slower mons that appreciate the extra speed, especially 14 speed mons (the threshold for all non-choiced mons to be outsped), such as Corphish, Croagunk and Machop.
:abra::gastly::corphish::croagunk::machop::taillow::cranidos::clamperl:
#3 Not losing to opposing Webs and set-up Sweepers. This one might be a bit trickier, and while having a sash Abra is a good fail-safe for most set-up sweepers, it doesn't help much vs opposing webs. One way to go around it is having an offensive Spinner of your own, but typically, a better option is simply to have a faster mon immune to webs or a Sturdyjuice mon. Gastly and Taillow are two great options as mons immune to Webs, whereas Magnemite is an excellent abuser of webs with its high Spatk and Sturdy ability.
:drifloon::magnemite::abra::gastly::taillow::onix:
#4 If you've noticed a small trend with the above mons, it's that most of them are very frail or reliant on their item for their role. A mon to tank item removal (Knock Off, Thief, and Covet) is vital for the success of most LC teams. While this is less prevalent for webs teams, as they'll mostly outspeed any viable knockers, it's still something to keep in mind in case you lack the ability to OHKO a knock off abuser. Notable Knock Off tanks for Webs would be Machop, Croagunk and to an extent Snubbull, all of which resist Knock / Thief and can reliably Thief back their item, or abuse any common knocker as set-up fodder.
:Croagunk::machop::snubbull:

:staryu:Dual Screens Offense:abra:

Notable options: :staryu::abra::natu:|:shellder::clamperl::magby::zigzagoon::croagunk::corphish::omanyte::teddiursa::Diglett::onix:
More match-up reliant than any other archetype, but can also just hard win on preview if you've got the right sweepers. There's really three approaches here as to how to make it work, all of which tends to overlap to an extent. As for your main setter, Staryu and Abra are fairly similar in being fast setters with good support options, with Staryu standing out due to its ability to shred through turn 1 rockers like Onix/Anorith while threatening a burn. Abra, however, has access to the yearned for Teleport, which after setting up screens guarantees that you get your set-up sweeper in for free on the very next turn bar random Taunts. Natu is kind of inferior to both of these two options, but can set screens on mons slower than itself more reliably than Abra / Staryu due to better bulk and a fantastic ability for deterring webs and hazard spam, while still rocking Teleport for support. Onix is also a notable support option to set Stealth Rock before Screens go up.
:staryu:
Approach #1 is to have every pokemon set up on each others checks and counters, giving a free set-up opportunity every time something dies. A good example of this would be Magby + Shellder, where Magby is countered by Onix, which in turn allows Shellder to set up, and Shellder is countered by Munchlax, which in turn lets Magby set up. However, with Sturdyjuice mons and Sash Abra being the main check to most mons after set-up, this doesn't usually result in too many run away wins.
:abra:
Approach #2 is to have common counters and checks to most of your sweepers, allowing a different mon to win with that counter removed and/or weakened. This is a bit more doable in BDSP LC with Sturdyjuice, Sash Abra and Munchlax being the main counters for most teams to most sweepers on this list (With some exceptions requiring Gastly/Drifloon to be gone). An example here would be having Magby and Clamperl on the same team, where Magby can chip Chinchou for Clamperl to break through afterwards, or break the Sash on Abra for Perl to clean. Another way of doing this is to sac a notable sweeper, in order to trap and remove that common counter with Diglett and hence allowing for further sweeping, which also leads us into ...
:natu:
Approach #3 is to set screens multiple times. While stuffing two of Abra/Staryu/Natu on your team as suicide screeners should grant easier set-up opportunities for mons with similar counters, it also relaxes the offensive pressure on your opponent. Additionally, this may not be necessary for multiple set-up opportunities, as Abra+Staryu are both quite fast mons, so they can frequently set at least a single screen a second time without requiring two setters. Furthermore, Memento Diglett also provides support similar to screens for the sweeper that comes in immediately after.
:diglett:
All three approaches combined should probably make for an easy-to-use screens team for immediate bops vs good match-ups.

:drifloon:Bulky Offense:munchlax:

We've said a lot already in this guide without properly addressing how good Munchlax and Drifloon really are. Well, here's that archetype that makes perfect use of their strengths. Most typical good BO/Balance builds include at least two of Munchlax+Drifloon+Onix. The reasoning for all three are very simple, and I'll explain the main process behind the current best bulkier structures in the metagame.

:munchlax:Munchlax is the counter to literally anything that lacks a STAB Fighting move. It keeps mons like Drifloon, Abra and Gastly from being broken in their own right, while also being able to act as a late-game wincon (or mid-game breaker) with Curse sets when needed. Now, what keeps it from being broken? It's terrified of anything that steals its item as it relies on recycle for longevity. In fact, Munchlax is the definition of an item reliant mon, and the plethora of good Knock Off, Covet and Thief mons means it often needs the support of a Knock absorber whenever used, otherwise it may need to switch out from mons it would normally beat such as Abra. However, Munchlax will beat a lot of mons in a 1v1, even should-be counters like Onix or removers like Abra after it’s used its juice. Really, it's just too good to forego on bulkier builds. This is not to say it lacks a place more offensive builds, because it can reset tempo in your favour when coming in thanks to high bulk, high attack and pick up, an ability most people tend to overlook but an absolute dream ability on a mon with the 2hko potential Munchlax has with Double Edge.
:porygon:
:drifloon:Second mon in the category of being "so good not having it on a team is already a disadvantage" is Drifloon. It just does unspeakable things to the entire metagame, while complementing Munchlaxes weaknesses and Burning mons that could hit Munchlax hard on the Physical side. Munchlax and Drifloon alone can handle quite a few teams if they have the right sets (although with 4mss, this is by no means a guarantee), and can switch in on most of the best mons in the current metagame with only a few exceptions.
":gastly::abra:"
:onix: BDSP LC struggles a bit with only having a few viable rockers, but in a much more real sense (Insert Michael Scott gif), it really only has 1 viable rocker. Onix further adds to the team a solid last-resort check to almost any set up sweeper with Sturdy+Berry Juice+Potential Endure, as well as an emergency check to anything that could otherwise threaten Munchlax and Drifloon. If played very offensively, ignoring the opportunity to set up rocks, it's essentially a guaranteed trade in the current metagame, often getting 1 or 2 kills before going down. It's just an easy addition to any team really.
:kabuto::anorith::lileep::omanyte::sandshrew::diglett::magnemite::abra:
:koffing:However, all these three heavily rely on their item to function as they should, meaning a Knock/Thief/Covet absorber is necessary for the core to properly work. There are multiple good absorbers, but notable ones are those that can tank strong Fighting hits as well since one of the two most prevalent knockers in the tier is Machop. Furthermore both Onix and Munchlax are weak to Fighting, so having a better counter than Drifloon is often appreciated. Notable options are Snubbull, Oddish, Croagunk and Machop, all of which can tank Knocks relatively easy and Thief back an item (Or doesn't necessarily need Berry Juice), but most relevant is Koffing, which also has the ability to set Toxic Spikes, the best Entry Hazard in the current meta. The reason for that is simply that almost every relevant mon is somewhat hurt by Poison, especially fearing Drifloons Hex, and the only viable grounded Poison types being Koffing and Oddish.
:oddish::croagunk::snubbull::machop:
Most Bulky Offense and Balance teams should in some way or form incorporate a variation of these four or mons that can perform a similar role with some other niche, and while neither of these 4 are mandatory, they just simply outclass most other options in what they do. However, there is still one issue to be addressed before going over what you'll want in the final slots and how current slots can be swapped around.

:abra: Note how 3 of the 4 big BO mons are weak to Knock. Note how the knock absorbers are all, with only 1 single exception, weak to Psychic. Yeah, a Psychic type with Knock Off can run through most Bulky Offense teams if it's getting its turns right. Main thing here is to simply have Bjuice popped when countering it with Munchlax, or get it in on a forced Psychic. In theory, Abra can dismantle BO for a different sweeper to clean, but in reality it's a bit tougher with how little damage Knock does and how frail Abra is. Still, Abra should always be able to at worst force a trade with Lax/Onix and at least cripple Drifloon to the point where it won't be useful for the rest of the game by clicking Knock Off. This means that Abra alone isn't game-breaking, but combined with mons that can abuse 1 of Lax/Drifloon being item-less, it can be frighteningly destructive. Having a 5th mon that can somewhat deal with Abra, even if after a sac like Beat Up Diglett, is worth considering on these builds.

:munchlax: Another thing to note before going onto good final options is that your team should always have an answer to Curse Munchlax. It's the #1 most common set on Munchlax, and potentially devastating if played right. A simple encore into Knock from Abra isn't too hard to fit, but anything really that can come in and ruin Munchlaxes momentum is worth giving a shot if it fits.

At this point in the build though you've essentially covered the entire metagame, so we'll just want a solid win-condition or something that can help put either of Munchlax/Drifloon in a winning position. These last two slots are where you can get a bit more experimental, or just bring Abra+Gastly because they're fucking amazing and can cuck most cores if played right. Honestly, while most builds should and already does incorporate Lax+Floon+Onix+Abra (No, Abra is not a typo for Koffing), and hence might seem really boring, there actually is a lot of diversity in what can viably fit into these last slots, and how they're incorporated into the build. Furthermore, for more Offense oriented builds, one can easily go with a more Suicidal Munchlax or a Porygon over Lax even, and more offensively oriented Drifloons and Stealth Rockers, or even completely forego Drifloon for something like Gastly (Despite them not being comparable in what they do for a BO/Balance/Offense team), depending on how you want to structure your build. However, the basic backbone core will (and should) probably stay similar to what's been theorized here. However, here is where you'll usually see the rest of the A-B tier mons, as well as the other 2 S rank mons. Especially Abra stands out as a great option on these builds, both for breaking opposing similar builds but also for baiting and breaking mons that could be annoying to in particular Munchlax and Drifloon.
:abra::gastly::carvanha::diglett::croagunk::machop::magnemite::chinchou::corphish::porygon::aipom::mankey:

Obligatory 3-sentence conclusion starts here. Go peep sample teams for good examples of how these structures are used in solid teams. Also please go win tyvm goodbye.​
 
Moody has been banned from BDSP LC. It is the definition of uncompetitive, whether it's amazing or horrible depends more on order of Moody boosts/drops rather than player skill.

AbilityAlkioneCorporal LeviEveFilleHSOWAmegatyler30
Moody​
Abstain​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
Ban​
 
Is Doduo that bad? I wanted to try to create a birdspam team with it and Taillow, but since it's not in the VR I guess that I should give up (I'm a shitty teambuilder, I would not be able to create a decent team even by copypasting it.)
Doduo @ Life Orb
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Facade
- Roost
This is my current set.
Taillow @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Facade
- Roost
- U-turn
And Taillow. Roost could become Work Up, maybe. Or maybe not.
It's sad to see that it's another metagame with 6 options to choose from, but at least we don't have a mandatory Fighting mon. That alone makes this iteration of LC worth to try.
 
Is Doduo that bad? I wanted to try to create a birdspam team with it and Taillow, but since it's not in the VR I guess that I should give up (I'm a shitty teambuilder, I would not be able to create a decent team even by copypasting it.)
Doduo @ Life Orb
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Facade
- Roost
This is my current set.
Taillow @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Facade
- Roost
- U-turn
And Taillow. Roost could become Work Up, maybe. Or maybe not.
It's sad to see that it's another metagame with 6 options to choose from, but at least we don't have a mandatory Fighting mon. That alone makes this iteration of LC worth to try.
Taillow has some advantages of Doduo which makes it hard to pick Doduo. Firstly, the 19 speed is very helpful. Secondly, facade is a great normal stab for Burnt Taillow but bad for Doduo where opponent is more likely to just kill it over trying to status it. Both are walled by steel & rock types (doduo used to have Jump Kick but sadly it has had that taken away) but Taillow just can uturn out on this, likely also breaking sturdy in doing so while with Doduo you just have to hard switch.

I suppose the only place Doduo is worth using is bird spam, otherwise you'd generally just be better off using Taillow instead. That said, I'm not sure, at least personally, I'd recommend using birdspam.

Also, while there are definitely some meta staples, BDSP LC right not is a lot more diverse than SWSH LC, while you definitely will probably have 1-2 of Munchlax, Abra, Gastly, or Driffloon on your team, what you have aside from that is very much up in the air.
 

Fille

Afk
is a Pre-Contributor
LCPL Champion
Is Doduo that bad? I wanted to try to create a birdspam team with it and Taillow, but since it's not in the VR I guess that I should give up (I'm a shitty teambuilder, I would not be able to create a decent team even by copypasting it.)
Doduo @ Life Orb
Ability: Early Bird
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Facade
- Roost
This is my current set.
Taillow @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Facade
- Roost
- U-turn
And Taillow. Roost could become Work Up, maybe. Or maybe not.
It's sad to see that it's another metagame with 6 options to choose from, but at least we don't have a mandatory Fighting mon. That alone makes this iteration of LC worth to try.
Problem with Doduo is mainly just that fitting 2 birds can be difficult and when you want only 1 then Taillow just hard outclasses it. For a birdspam tho however, bar Starly which oddly enough looks kinda ok in the birds up team, Doduo would be a good fit with Taillow, although setting an SD with LO seems fairly impossible so I'd probs go rither all out LO/Band(please dont call me out for band doduo IT WORKS I SWEAR) or like Bjuice 3 attacks SD. Give birdspam a shot and let me know how it's progressing cause I love the drunk birds :doduo:
 
Starly @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Double-Edge
- Facade
- U-turn

Here's the Starly set Fille is referring to. Honestly, even though there are checks everywhere, it probably deserves to be at least C because it hits like a truck. You still get outsped by scarf Gastly and Mankey though and with all the recoil you're very vulnerable to being picked off with priority.
 
Suspect Test: Drifloon
drifloon.jpg
Drifloon will be the target of BDSP LC's first suspect test.

Suspect Reasoning

The main factors to highlight to indicate Drifloon's strengths are its bulk, useful typing and moves, and its ability Unburden, which ultimately synergize and support each other.

On its own, it can set itself up pretty consistently. It cripples physical attackers with wisp and can set up on special attackers with calm mind and recycle, with berry juice being the item of choice. Unburden makes wisp, calm mind, and recycle setup a lot more consistent than would be expected from a 17 speed mon. Such sets usually rely on hex (which is 130 BP after wisp is clicked) or thunderbolt as the attacking move of choice. While not usually useful as an early or midgame sweeper, especially with Abra and Gastly everywhere, it does best with lategame cleaning, when the opponent has a limited number of options which can make breaking Drifloon difficult.

In terms of its typing, it allows it to spin block, be immune to webs and tspikes, and its many immunities enable it to safely come in on a lot of mons, frequently able to come in multiple times over the course of the match. It is very useful on webs teams for keeping webs up, which usually can only be put up once making this a very important role to fill. Additionally, it is good against opposing teams which rely too heavily on webs, as 17 speed will still outspeed most webs specific mons. Dark type moves are a lot less common in BDSP LC which makes ghost typing no longer a liability compared to SWSH LC as knock off distribution is a lot smaller and the only two viable dark types are Carvanha and Stunky, of which only the former is frequently used and even then, not even close to the prevalence of Pawniard (and once upon a time Vullaby) in other LC metagames.

Less in line with its more common sets, it also has plenty of options to support the rest of the team, it can run defog to remove hazards, thunder wave to cripple fast-frail threats, and memento to support setup mons. Additionally, destiny bond is always an option for removing essential members of your opponent's team.

All this said, Drifloon does have some drawbacks. Firstly, it has one of the most severe cases of 4 moveslot syndrome of any mon in the tier, with frequently it being hard to even slot two attacking moves. This can pose an issue if running hex as after crippling Munchlax with wisp, there’s not much Drifloon can do to it. Secondly, its attacking options could use some improvement. It only has decent ghost, psychic, and electric moves; it has lost any decent flying move. Thirdly, although after unburden is activated essentially nothing will outspeed it, its 17 speed when it has an item gives it a poor matchup against gastly and abra.

Suspect Method

As the ladder is not yet in a state to support a traditional suspect test, we will be limiting the vote to those who've made it to council and those who've made it to quarterfinals in the BDSP LC Kickoff tour. We hope to have a traditional suspect test next time, so keep laddering everyone!

The people eligible to vote in this suspect test are: Laroxyl Liquidocelot Fille Lokifan FP Just a Bee Surfy Corporal Levi Kodiak_45 yellowfin gali Stecolomaxx megatyler30 Alkione HSOWA Lalaya for a total of 16 voters. 60% of the voting pool must vote ban for Drifloon to be banned. I will reach out to all those who are eligible with specifics on voting. The deadline to vote is Friday 11PM +0.

Note as this is not a traditional suspect, it will not count towards a TC badge. If we can do a regular ladder suspect next time, that would count.

Suspect Discussion

While not everyone is given the opportunity to earn reqs this time to vote, everyone can be involved in this suspect. The main way to be involved in this decision is post reasoning for or against the ban for discussion in this thread.

Council Update

Eve will be leaving council to focus on other tiers and will be replaced by Laroxyl and Lalaya. Thank you Eve for your involvement.

Note: Lalaya joined council shortly after the suspect went up but will still be allowed to vote as he met the requirements well within the suspect period, this post has been updated to reflect that.
 
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I get to participate in a suspect test? What is this nonsense!

In all seriousness though. Thanks for the chance. I think I'm gonna have to play a few more games before I come up with a real opinion. I'm leaning rn towards Do Not Ban as I haven't really had any super strong problems with Floon. But like I said I feel like I need to play a few more games to really get a feel for it.
 
The voting information has been sent out to all eligible voters now. The voting will be blind voting, although you can and should talk about why Drifloon should or shouldn't be banned here, it is best to not share directly what you are voting. We encourage people to spend some time on ladder, check out some tournament replays, and read over any Drifloon posts here before voting, especially if you are on the fence initially.
 

Lalaya

Banned deucer.
is drifloon really a problem? with the current munchlax spawn you just need to know how to play correctly, right? View attachment 406797
Please don't make extremely short posts and/or simple questions! These will be deleted. Use the Discord or Simple Questions thread, both of which are linked below.
That being said, I'll just outline my thoughts; I'm still on the fence, anyway

Drifloon is, to say the least, centralizing, since if you don't have a Knock user or a Sturdy juicer chances are this Pokémon will ruin your day; counterplay is in the forms of faster Pokèmon that can heavily dent the not-so-fragile balloon, like Elekid, Gastly, and some of the scarfers present in the tier, or by the few Dark-types like Stunky, and seeing how this tier is offensive or relies to some defensive backbones Drifloon can't break it might sound all good and dandy, right?

Well, sort of.

Knock Off users are very few, some Scarfers can't touch Drifloon at all (or they risk locking themselves in a move that can't touch Drifloon), and if you can't get their Juice away, you WILL suffer from the consequences of letting Drifloon outspeeding the entire tier and having an amazing recovery at the same time, and while Recycle is a mainstay, Drifloon can sport a massive amount of movesets that can just ruin your day; while HexWisp is the most common one, beware the Calm Mind set that will highlight how Drifloon can become a wincon at any point of the game, and Drifloon works on basically any team comp thanks to that. As already highlighted though, this also creates a HEAVY 4mss where Drifloon may or may not even not be able to get the upper hand against Munchlax, while Munchlax is free to get some Curses going, for instance. Also, while the tier adapted to Drifloon's presence, the pressure on the teambuilder is IMMENSE just for the fact that you need to account for it, although you can also argue how a lot of teambuilder choices (SashAbra, Munchlax, common S rank answers) overlap with answers for Drifloon. Still, while it may be a 4MSS for you, it might be a powerful wincon for your opponent that you can't hope to stop, or that you need to heavily trade pieces to be able to do it, leaving you in disadvantage, and I feel being able to outpace the entire tier while popping the magical recovery is a bit too much for the tier to handle, and while I don't think it falls in the broken category, I feel it falls in the unhealthy one.

That being said, before I'll even think of a vote (I'm still genuinely on the fence, as opened with), I'll wait to get more games under my belt to get a better handle of Drifloon and I'd suggest everyone to do the same, and discussion is very welcome on this one. Make your balloon happy (or don't!)
 
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Drifloon Voting Results

As a reminder, we had quarterfinalists of the BDSP LC kickoff tour and council vote on Drifloon, with a 60% threshold of ban votes for Driloon to be banned.

We have 7 votes for ban, 7 votes for do not ban, and 2 abstains. As we did not meet the 60% threshold, Drifloon will remain legal in BDSP LC.

Thank you everyone who voted and hopefully, once we have a stronger ladder presence, we can do traditional suspect tests in the future.
 
Suspect Test: Sticky Webs
Sticky Webs will be the target of BDSP LC's second suspect test.

Suspect Reasoning

Sticky Webs is very powerful in a metagame where fast offense is one of the core stable team types of the metagame. In BDSP LC, there are only two webs setters: Surskit and Spinarak.

Surskit is the premier setter mainly due it hitting 17 speed, which makes webs a lot less consistent to prevent. Additionally, even despite it by no means an offensive threat, it has moves which target frail mons and 4x weak mons that allows it to have some use even after getting up webs. Aqua jet is great at breaking sashes while special water moves is useful for Onix and Anorith and Giga Drain for Kabuto and Carvanha. Now let's talk about which item Surskit can use. The three considerations are Choice Scarf, Focus Sash, and Berry Juice. Choice Scarf is the most consistent for setting up webs, but is easiest for the opponent to abuse if known as Surskit becomes set up fodder. Focus sash is great as long as the opponent doesn't have Rock Blast on Anorith or Onix, with Onix getting up webs is a coin toss and with Anorith surskit will die if it stays in. Lastly, Berry Juice is viable against Onix as it allows Surskit to live up to 4 hit rock blast, barring back to back high rolls, which combined with the 50% chance Surskit goes first, makes setting up webs on Onix reasonably likely. Berry juice also allows surviving 2 hit rock blast from Anorith, but of course that's anything but consistent. All in all, the three item choices make Surskit pretty flexible which it works best against, but also is pretty matchup dependent.

Under webs, mons such as Machop, Corphish, etc. become a lot more threatening and the likely mirror matches of some teammates heavily favor the webs user. The only viable Pokemon immune to webs are Gastly, Drifloon, and Taillow. Rapid spin is the primary method of removing webs, but it suffers from major issues due to spinners being affected by the webs speed drop making them inconsistent and Drifloon is a very reliable spin blocker. Defog on paper seems best but when the only viable Pokemon that have it are Drifloon and Taillow, it's usually not even a consideration. Drifloon has issues fitting everything it wants into 4 moves as it is and Taillow is too frail to be anything other than a suicide defogger.

To summarize, Sticky Webs has strong advantages in a tier where speed is so important and is really hard to remove consistently. That said, this is offset by Surskit being less useful than most teammates after webs are up, even despite the upsides mentioned earlier.

Suspect Method

As the ladder is not yet in a state to support a traditional suspect test, we will be limiting the vote to those who've made it to council and those who've made it to quarterfinals in the BDSP LC Kickoff tour. We hope to have a traditional suspect test next time, so keep laddering everyone!

The people eligible to vote in this suspect test are: Laroxyl Liquidocelot Fille Lokifan FP Just a Bee Surfy Corporal Levi Kodiak_45 yellowfin gali Stecolomaxx megatyler30 Alkione HSOWA Lalaya for a total of 16 voters. 60% of the voting pool must vote ban for Sticky Webs to be banned. I will reach out to all those who are eligible with specifics on voting. The deadline to vote is Friday (3/4) 11PM +0.

Note as this is not a traditional suspect, it will not count towards a TC badge. If we can do a regular ladder suspect next time, that would count.

Suspect Discussion

While not everyone is given the opportunity to earn reqs this time to vote, everyone can be involved in this suspect. The main way to be involved in this decision is to post reasoning for or against the ban to spark discussion in this thread.
 
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Sticky Webs Voting Results

As a reminder, we had quarterfinalists of the BDSP LC kickoff tour and council vote on Sticky Webs, with a 60% threshold of ban votes for Sticky Webs to be banned.

We have 9 votes for ban, 3 votes for do not ban, and 4 abstains. Therefore, excluding the abstains, 75% of people voted for ban, significantly above the 60% thereshold, so Sticky Webs is now banned in BDSP LC!

Thank you everyone who voted and hopefully, once we have a stronger ladder presence, we can do traditional suspect tests in the future.
 
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Kodiak_45

LCPL Champion
LPL 8 BDSP LC Tournament Report
Hello Everyone, I am Kodiak_45, and I was drafted by Fille to play BDSP LC for his LPL team. I was a testing partner for him during the open where I had a decent run, and he trusted me to dominate the tier. I greatly enjoy the tier. BDSP is a very centralized meta, meaning nearly all teams share at least 3 if not 4 pokemon. With such a low variance in the tier, games revolve around gaining incremental edges until you can set up a decisive endgame. As such, this is a skill-testing tier where keeping track of abilities, items, and in-depth knowledge of move pools will determine the winner. BDSP LC is a breath of fresh air after playing the stale meta of ShSw LC. I think that BDSP LC would be much more popular if more entrenched SwSh LC mains gave the tier an honest try.

Week 1 Vs Gali (W):
https://pokepast.es/9559c3660eecf923 :koffing::munchlax::drifloon::abra::onix::trapinch:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdsplc-1539999414
Here we wanted to T-spike while also playing around Gali's high usage of anorith/kabuto as spinners. T-spikes is very powerful as it shuts lax down and allows floon to spam hex more freely. I think that the game plan when well. I don't really have much to say other than I probably could have played around thief floon better. The game came down to an abra vs abra speed tie, and I won.

Week 2 MK007 vs megatyler30 (W):
https://pokepast.es/e4bc19aa5c283225 :gastly::munchlax::drifloon::abra::venonat::trapinch:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdsplc-1545297333
We didn't have much of a scout as megatyler did not play in the Kickoff tour, so the plan was to build something solid and outplay. I had a last minute thing come up, and MK007 was subbed in for me. I passed https://pokepast.es/6b6ed3aa28a0bb2b to him, but he decided that venonat was better than onix. Since I didn't play, I don't really have any commentary. MK mentioned playing around not revealing venonat's set after basically having the game locked up, so keep that in mind when watching the later turns.

Week 3 Vs Zerooutthere (W):
https://pokepast.es/170c8703c7539a29 :ponyta::munchlax::drifloon::abra::magnemite::trapinch:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdsplc-1550663139-hly7mnnr8y95cxbzazvuuzxuiodmpp9pw
I wasn't sure what to bring here. I did experiment with both LO and scarf Cranidos. A day or two before the game was scheduled, I decided to just use a team I had already built. Here Mag/Pony bait in onix T1 and I hard trap with pinch. Scarf Mag is very good against gastly, abra, and floon, especially with opposing ground types removed. Scarf Pony can also suprise non-sash diglett. The beginning of the match went well imo. Losing pinch to gunk wasn't ideal, but pinch wasn't going to do anything else. Also I'm just going to drop a certain calc here. 188 SpA Croagunk Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Trapinch: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

Week 4 Vs Stecolomaxx (L):
https://pokepast.es/78b8bdf47cbcb988 :koffing::munchlax::drifloon::abra::magnemite::diglett:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdsplc-1554845071-5d18cn9c6py7p9jdwxcnh3mpietorcepw
Here the gameplan was too bring a solid T-spikes team. The early game went to plan, but then carv flinched koffing.
116 SpA Koffing Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Carvanha: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. This was very unfortunate, as removing carv would have put me in a great position. I will admit I am a dumbass and assumed mag would live the gastly's sball and didn't calc shit. I somewhat recover, and then carv gets another flinch, this time against abra, basically losing me the game on the spot. I proceeded to play my lax badly and lost, although I doubt I could have pulled it off with my opp having an abra and croagunk in the back.

Week 5 Vs ToyTimeKing (W):
https://pokepast.es/3efb0631de2fb0d6 :koffing::munchlax::drifloon::abra::carvanha::trapinch:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdsplc-1560620324-744u72akegpubcg0bzpjzcwxqacd1xvpw
Originally Collette and I were going to mess around with meme teams because my team was out due to being consistently haxxed in nearly every endgame. Unfortunately Coll had to sub out so I had to play for real. Because the team was built at the last minute, I didn't document the building process. However, I do think the team is quite solid. Everything in the early game is pretty standard, explosion onix was a neat way to deny pinch giga drain recovery. I over predicted turn 8 with koffing vs abra. I don't remember what I clicked, but I know I stayed in for a reason. In the endgame I ended up having to spam recycle with my lax until my opp's lax was in Dedge OHKO range and hope he doesn't crit me. However the only reason this worked was because I had invested 76 speed EVs into lax to reach 8 speed, while my opp likely had 7 speed. This meant when both of us had maxxed out on curses, I would always out speed him. Anyways, it works and I win.

Week 6 Vs FP on (L):
https://pokepast.es/9a93a8a3ddf91b1e :diglett::munchlax::drifloon::abra::magnemite::trapinch:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdsplc-1565538884-19igjjcflzn4ewuah75kzzb866iih1zpw
Here I was like "I have nearly 100% pinch usage, I'll just use two trappers", and then was like I'll replace pinch with magic coat porygon to abuse onix. Then right before I play, I try to validate my team, only to find porygon learns magic coat at level 50. Cursing myself, I quickly change back to the original team and start playing. I then try to trap sturdy juice mag with BOTH of my trappers. I will justify my dig switch with this calc: 236 SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 196 HP / 0 SpD Diglett: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Not my finest moment.
But don't worry, it gets worse. I manage to pull off a decent lax play to pickup mag's berry juice. Then on turn 28 I click tbolt with floon and then start calcing. I realize I fucked up and went to click cancel. I somehow miss the cancel button THREE TIMES, and I threw any chances of winning out the window. If I recycled there, got a few more calm minds off and provided carv doesn't get the double protect, I could have won. Alas, I didn't and you can
see my choke in all of its glory on YouTube. Shoutout to TheKingKarp, I greatly enjoy your LC content.

Week 7 Vs HSOWA (W):
https://pokepast.es/cdbc148681fe3814 :drifloon::magnemite::abra::taillow::snubbull::trapinch:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdsplc-1569851090-hagy8kpzgos25e8epg98z0e3szdzjlwpw
Here I was uninspired, and decided to use a team Fille passed a while ago. I updated pinch to be laser focus over EQ, and went in. I really don't have much to say about the game except assuming mag survives powerful attacks is a mistake I shouldn't have made again.

BONUS DoGuo Vs Afdvsc (L):
https://pokepast.es/5738c2418587e1d8 :koffing::munchlax::drifloon::abra::kabuto::magnemite:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8bdsplc-624214
I suffered a severe lapse in judgement and offered help to both of these players help prep, not realizing that they were playing each other. I quickly realize my error when I start scouting for both of them. Since Fille was already in the Scrub's server, I ask him to help Afdvsc, left the Scrub's server myself, and help DuGuo prep. I built this team to have a solid matchup against most teams. Here Kabuto is designed to counter-lead onix. EQ breaks the sash and thief into aqua jet KO onix. The HP recovery from the stolen berry juice would allow kabuto to come back in at some point and clear rocks for sturdymag. I don't have much to say about the game itself as I didn't play.

Viability Ranking Suggestions:
:koffing: A- -> A/A+

In a tier with pickup, unburden, and other meta-defining abilities, neutralizing gas is extremely powerful. If you manage to sacrifice koffing on the same turn drifloon would proc its berry juice, unburden doesn't trigger. That is a game winning interaction for the koffing player. Also keep in mind abra cannot come in on koffing as neutralizing gas will cause sash to break if the koffing player has rocks up.

:trapinch: B -> A
I wholeheartedly agree with Fille that trapinch should be A ranked. Trapinch feels extremely splashable, although it may just be my playstyle and how I build. But the recent development of laser focus for guaranteed trapping of Lax is insane.

:chimchar: C -> UR
Once again I am requesting that Chimchar be moved to UR. I've literally never seen it used. Chimchar's only niche is as a lead, and it loses to the most common lead in the tier: onix.

:machop: A -> B
This mon just underwhelming. Sub/CC/Thief/X with berry juice is its best set. There honestly isn't much to say here

Closing Thoughts:
This tier is very fun and should definitely be included in LCPL and LCWC moving forward (especially over one of SwSh/SuMo/ORAS). I went 4-2 overall and every game felt like I had agency over the outcome, even my losses. I am very happy with the tier as it is right now and think that its pretty healthy. If anyone has any questions or wants to play some BDSP LC, hit me up on discord at Kodiak#6568 or Kodiak_45 on Showdown.
 
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