BH Balanced Hackmons Central Resources

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Add Analytic to Marowak-Alolan as an Ability option, as it underspeeds most walls including Flash Fire Registeel, so it can use moves like Precipice Blades (which Tough Claws does not boost), and to nail stuff like T-Tar, and Don in the switch-in.
Analytic is a pretty cool ability and I've tried to make it work in the past but can never justify it over other abilities that give similar boosts. In Marowak-Alola's case, I think this stands. The suggested Tinted Lens and Tough Claws sets already help A-Wak make these calcs or make them even better. Close Combat not having a chance to miss is nice too.

252+ Atk Thick Club Tough Claws Marowak-Alola Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 318-376 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Thick Club Tinted Lens Marowak-Alola V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Groudon-Primal in Harsh Sunshine: 392-462 (97 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 492-580 (121.7 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so with OMGS finishing, the Sleep nerf, and current ssnl going on I got some noms I would like to discuss as the meta develops. These are just my opinions and not that of the entire BHC staff of course.

A+ -> A
With the implementation of the Sleep Clause and general rise of checks such as Ho-Oh, Flash FIre Steels, and other niche stuff like Electric Terrain Primal Groudon, I think Xerneas has kind of fallen off as of late. While QD sets can still be quite potent and can still sweep weakened down teams, the fact that it cannot put foes to sleep numerous times really hamper the consistency of this set. Other sets such as PH Rapid Spin have been starting to pop up and do offer a lot of utility, however when compared to other sweepers and wallbreakers such as Mega Gengar, Mega Diancie, and Mega Mewtwo-X, I don't feel Xerneas holds it own as it used to a couple of months ago.


A -> A+
Primal Groudon has risen as a premier offensive wallbreaker rn due to its ability to force in checks such as Gira and Zygarde-C and can rlly apply a bunch of pressure just due to V-Create under the sun alone. Sets such as Anchor Shot, Shell Smash, and just offensive SR have a bunch of potential and utility across many teams, beat its checks with coverage like Fleur Cannon and Bolt Strike, and can blanket check a bunch of stuff such as Mega Diancie, Primal Kyogre, and even certain MMX sets if its healthy enough. I just feel Pdon has a wide array of flexibility that can be abused by the majority of teammates it can synergize with and is just rlly good rn.

B+ -> B/B-
Necrozma-DM is just better than Solgaleo in almost every single way atm. Not only can it provide slower pivoting, but also possesses the mixed bulk to take on mixed attackers quite well and offers more offensive pressure thanks to a better Attack stat. This also means that offensive DM sets (mainly being BellyBurden and maybe DM -> Ultra sets if you can argue for it) also have a much better place being used on DM instead of Solgaleo even with a decreased Speed due to it being able to actually achieve certain 2HKO's and OHKO's that Solgaleo just can't claim for its own. Also other Steel types such as Celesteela and Aegislash have just been better as of late due to their own unique attributes which sets them apart from Solgaleo.

B- -> B
Similar to Pdon, Mega Blaze is a great abuser of V-create that can really utilize its secondary STAB and Tinted Lens to capitalize on the rise of FF steels in order to wallbreak more securely. It also applies a bunch of pressure on supposed checks such as non-FC Giratina and Zygarde-C, meaning that teams lacking a hard-counter such as FF Aegislash can really have a hard time dealing with repeated V-create / Close Combat switchins from this thing. Shell Smash sets also have potential as a means of sweeping and luring in its counters with a powerful Blue Flare. Mega Blaze is really hindered by a weakness to -ate priority and general average Speed stat which is why I believe it does not deserve to be higher.

B- -> B+
Anyone watching any high level BH games as of late has noted the dramatic increase in Ho-OH usage and it is not really hard to see why. Being able to check the likes of Mega Diancie, MMX, PH Xerneas, and Dialga in one slot is a godsend for the majority of teams. It also has a bunch of viable move options ranging from support like Spikes, Nuzzle, Spectral Thief, to a more offensive approach using Brave Bird and the likes by abusing a rather High Attack stat. I believe Ho-Oh to be one of the more consistent defensive pivots atm and deserves to rise because of this.

These are the major ones I wanted to point out rn but I can also see some stuff change in the C and D ranks as well.
 

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
an informed post on actual relevant mons that brings up current meta trends? i must be dreaming

xern to a: agree. even in sleep meta i thought this mon was on the lower side of a+, and with new common adaptations to it and sleep clause hindering it, i think it can be dropped back down. might even be worthy of a- but not quite sure about that one

pdon to a+: disagree. this is like the most disgusting mon to face if u don't have gira or zyg, but if u do pdon really isn't much of a concern. shell smash is an inconsistent sweeper bc of prank gira's prevalence, imposter bopping it, and it only really being able to come in once. anchor is the best set but its defensive utility is shaky vs diancie with boomburst doing ~35 and rocks going up. hazards pdon is pretty uncommon from my experience and it forces you to run a bouncer that loses to diancie to imposter proof so that's pretty wack, although i feel like this mon is relatively unexplored. overall pdon is not a very flexible mon and needs support to work well, and is nowhere near as much of a staple as the boys in a+ like ogre.

solgaleo to b/b-: agree. i think b is fine, solga is bad but not that bad. kind of an underrepresented mon although its current ranking definitely overstates how viable it is

blaziken to b: not sure. cb and scarf are both good sets, need to be convinced on the new smash set with replays or something, but this guy gets revenge killed by everything, gets forced out by prank sap users like gira (blaze + cb pursuit is not great bc 2 slow mons), and has other issues like shed forcing hard reads unlike with kart. i'm not gonna hard disagree on this but will need better reasoning and/or evidence to support this nom.

ho oh to b+: disagree. i really like this mon but b+ seems a bit too high. first of all it doesn't even check dialga bc of core, and it also loses to most defensive mons in general if ur not running v-create, which itself gives up a valuable moveslot and has low pp so it doesn't actually break teams. shutting down fairies and most ph mmx is nice, but a mon that loses to many sweepers and wallbreakers bc of unboosted bulk and no ability, while giving up momentum to fat mons, is hard to fit on teams.

new nom: feeling like a rank might be a bit too high for shed. this mon feels relatively inconsistent to use rn with adequate prep being not that hard to fit on teams, forcing you to outplay more to reap the same rewards that shed teams were able to get before with little to no effort. aggressively played shed teams can still be terrifying to play against, but increasingly common counterplay for this mon puts a damper on its viability imo.
 
I have absolutely no idea if it has been discussed, so sorry if I missed something in the 27 pages posted + other resources, but I've been getting some fabulous usage out of Imprison/Transform/Trap Zygarde-C.

Zygarde-Complete @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Imprison
- Anchor Shot
- Recover/Strength Sap
- Transform

Trapping > Imprisoning > Transforming means that the foe can do nothing but Struggle, in which time you can abuse whatever status moves they have. Prankster patches up Zygards speed and enables it can get the fast Transform after taking 2 turns taking hits to trap and imprison. Granted I don't think its top tier, it struggles with dealing with setup sweepers, and since it can't hold a Scarf, winning the speed tie once you transform is not consistent enough to be great. Switching in is also a problem in that since tanking hits is critical for 2 turns, needing to take a third on the switch is also frustrating. But I still think it's a fabulous troll set with a legitimate place in the game. Criticism of my set and description of it is welcome.
 
Last edited:
1 Ghost types can't be trapped, so if they are carrying a Ghost-type, you'll trap one mon max. Then your set is only good for forcing switches.
2 Prankster doesn't work on Dark-types (you can switch the ability to Fur Coat to get around this though. It really does annoy defensive mons when you do this because Zyg takes 0% from U-Turn)
3 As soon as your zyg clicks Imprison or Anchor Shot, a lot of defensive mons will just U-Turn out
4 The set is extremely passive, so offensive teams will never give you the chance to trap them
5 Many mons carry spore, which renders your set useless. I'd switch lefties to goggles.

IT's definitely nice if you can surprise something in the early game, or save it for the late game. I think that overall, Fur Coat is a better ability than Prankster though, to get around the Dark Types thing and to take more physical hits such as Ice Hammer from Contrary MMX (roughly 30% without any boosts--You can probably actually trap and kill contrary MMX sets.)
 
All trapping sets that rely on Imprison+Transform are unreliable and a gimmick, skylake already explained it pretty well.
Noms:
Xern to A: Agree, it is easier for unprepared teams to take it on by sacking a mon to sleep. Sets like Taunt, Nuzzle, and Sub are great but without its initial power it definitely is more A material than A+.
PDon to A+: Agree, it is arguably pretty metagame defining as it basically forces teams to run Zyg, Tina, Bro, or some other wack counter. While these mons are present in many teams (such as Tina), its V-create still does an enormous amount of damage (bar FC) and forces the opponent to keep the check very healthy (if not Prank Tina needs to be at >70). In addition its defensive utility is definitely very good and it has very good bulk as well such that defensive mons cannot significantly threaten it without Poison Fang or STAB Thousand Waves. While it isn't as splashable compared to some of the mons in A+ (see Regi Tina Ogre) its sheer power and utility is definitely deserving of A+.
Solgaleo to B/B-: I say B because B- looks too low but TBH I'm ok with it if it does get dropped down. NDM is basically better in terms of slow pivoting, offensive sets, and variety. If you want something that is fast Megagross is better as it speed ties Mega Diancie and outspeeds Base 150s with a Scarf.
Blaziken to B: Agree, its kinda similar to PDon when keeping checks at high health except this thing requires stuff like Tina are at 70% regardless of Prank. Lack of defensive utility is definitely problematic but hey that's why its going to B and PDon is going to B+. Predictions with this thing are hard though.
Ho-Oh to B+: Agree, it's strong V-create/Maybe Flare Blitz forces out most offensive mons by doing a massive chunk to them (bar Rayquaza and Kyogre) since Diancie dies to Anchor. V-create itself forces something like Tina or Ogre or FF Steel to come in which can be exploited. Xerneas falling off is detrimental to it so maybe it might be better in B.
Shed drop: Disagree, its definitely difficult to use on ladder with all the Moldy moves running around on sets that don't typically run it so you would have to use an extensive amount of scouting the sets. However that is somewhat similar to using other walls because if you guess the set wrong your "check" ends up taking a million.
Chomp to B+: Chomp is one of the best breakers in the meta right now because it is capable of forcing out Steels and Dragons while stuff like Ogre don't have the bulk to take it on. It has basically no switch-in outside of stuff like Buzzwole or FC Bro (which loses to Moldy) and both lose to Z-Draco. Arrows Hammer Blades is usually good enough so you can run a utility move like SR, Sunsteel, or First Impression. It also isn’t super imposter weak because it has SE STAB. Chomp also beats Prank Tina which usually beats band breakers which is nice.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Viability Rankings Update: May 15th, 2019

Kind of late on this as we voted on these nominations a while ago but after the recent Sleep Clause implementation, the BHC staff have finally decided to update the Viability Rankings following recent metagame shifts. Here are the results:

A+ -> A

B+ -> B
After the recent mechanics change (or should I say bug fix) of the Arceus type change when interacting with opposing Imposters, Arceus had lost a huge niche which let it stand out as a great Improof sweeper previously, with the main set being Soundproof Tail Glow with Boomburst and Ghost Judgment to smack opposing Imposter. While Arceus still has value in defensive sets and Shift Gear PH (although Regi / Slaking still perform this role better), Arceus's niche and impact in the metagame as devalued to the point where a drop to B was warranted.

B+ -> B-

B- -> B

B- -> B

With that said and done, we had not came to the conclusion to discuss any other talking points in terms of other potential nominations. Therefore, we are leaving it up to you to decide what could possibly change in the next slate and what should be voted on. Discuss this and any other feedback regarding the resources so that we can have the most up-to date thread before the generation closes!
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I think Palkia deserves a spot in the B- Viability Ranking Group.

Seeing other niche Pokémon there like Aerodactyl-Mega, Zekrom, Ferrothorn, and Magearna, I feel like Palkia is not worse than they are. I think Zekrom and Aerodactyl could actually be moved down to C, and am debating whether Ferrothorn should also be moved down.
At least Ferrothorn does have the unique defensive niche typing going for it as a defensive check counterpart to Kartana, and is one of the few options that can handle things like Diancie-Mega with Flash Fire.

Initially I was thinking it’s niche is reduced due to reliance on Weather + Swift Swim, or even Tinted Lens, but truly Dragon + Water coverage is rarely resisted (see Ferrothorn), and due to that, it will certainly have enough space on its moveset to place a coverage move to bypass its usual checks.

For me, I see that having playtested Palkia with a Dazzling and Shell Smash set, it could take advantage of Lustrious Orb and not suffer recoil, and still pack a punch with Steam Eruption and Clanging Scales - even when Neutral.

Since each of the -ates, including Zekrom, are weak to its STAB moves, I could genuinely feel confident in its ability to put in the work that many Pokémon can’t, as it can thus handle its usual checks.

In fact, even before the boosts, Palkia serves as a strong offensive threat that can break through Unaware/Prankster Haze, and RegenVest sets on Zygarde, Giratina, and Aegislash;

Assault Vest Calcs:
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Giratina: 224-266 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Zygarde-Complete: 264-312 (41.5 - 49%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Unaware / Prankster Haze Calcs:
252+ SpA Palkia Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 188-222 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Palkia Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 188-222 (58 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 336-396 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde-Complete: 392-464 (61.6 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lastly, Dazzling protects it from Topsy Turvey, Encore and other moves that could potentially disrupt a sweep from Prankster.

Palkia has the specific advantages of great neutral coverage, a no-drawback +20% to STAB item, and good typing to handle switching into Fire, Water, and Steel Attacks in order to set up.

The fact that Palkia also has multitude of viable abilities also speaks to its versatility, while Ferrothorn and Aerodactyl typically stick with Flash Fire and Magic Guard, respectively, and Zekrom sticks with Galvanize sets. Palkia can afford to change its ability and sets to better fit into more types of teams, and its secondary typing keep it different from Gyarados-Mega and Kyogre-Primal enough to carve out its own niche.

Palkia isn’t top tier, but I do feel it is closer to B than it is to C, at this point.
 
Last edited:
Palkia is a poor choice in the meta because of how bad water STAB is out of rain, and under rain Kyogre does a better job at murdering stuff. As a Dragon type attacker it is outclassed by Rayquaza and Necrozma and even Sceptile.
A DazzleSmash set is even worse, as it struggles to find opportunities to setup, as shown by your calcs it cannot even threaten out ZygTina with SE STAB. The only realistic mon it can setup on is mono Anchor steels, and most carry a move such as Topsy and deters setup. And even after a Shell Smash it cannot break through common mons such as Kyogre, Chansey, and RegenVest Dialga and Yveltal (basically every RegenVest not weak to its STABs with decent offensive pressure).
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 135-159 (19.1 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Yveltal: 127-151 (27.8 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Also many mons are great if they get a free Smash.
Also having many viable abilities doesn't mean a mon is definitely versatile or good. Xerneas has like one viable ability (not including MB, Soundproof, and other wack stuff) yet its A ranked. Same with Regigigas/Slaking. No matter how much you change its ability Palkia is still going to be checked by the same mons (unless you use super wack stuff like SF Bolt Strike in which case its just outclassed). Its secondary typing isn't doing it much favours as while Dragon STAB is cool and all taking 2x more from Core isn't helpful.
And Zekrom, Mega Aerodactyl, and Ferrothorn are by no means C material lmao.
A couple of lower tier noms:
Deoxys-Attack has microscopic bulk, which is pretty bad as it dies to everything bar like Chansey’s U-turn. This comes with the advantage of being able to OHKO even Eviolite Imposter with unboosted attacks, giving it a huge advantage over MMY in the Imposter match up. Furthermore, it has a better speed tier, outspeeding threats to MMY such as other MMY, Scept, and Bee (with rocks up it basically 6-0s the scept team for example). I have used the following SF set a lot and it’s ability to OHKO imposter as well as having a stronger Bolt Strike is quite nice. Psychic is unneeded as Bolt Strike does nearly the same damage and relevant targets die to coverage anyways.
Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 23 Def / 8 SpD
- Ice Beam / Moonblast
- Bolt Strike
- Earth Power / Focus Blast
- Moonblast / Shadow Ball / Sludge Wave / Bug Buzz
Pex has a nice niche as a durable Poison type that doesn’t have nasty weaknesses to common types like Venusaur. This makes it one of the only bouncers capable of checking both V-create Diancie and PH MMX. It’s poison typing also allows it to absorb TSpikes as well as giving it a nice resistance to U-turn. It can also check some mons like non-EP Xern, NormGar at full HP, and some defensive mons like Kyogre and Dialga. Biggest drawbacks are mediocre bulk, weakness to Mewtwos and Ray, and immense passivity (basically forced to run Anchor to prevent Imposter having a good time).
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Anchor Shot
- Shore Up
- Defog
- Knock Off / Spectral Thief / Scald
Tapu Fini with Poison Heal is an aids mon. It acts similarly to PH Audino but instead of just flat out walling the mon and then pivoting out it does a great job at harassing the opponent. Not many offensive breakers can actually OHKO it and generally do not want to take a Knock Off or get burned. Choiced wallbreakers like Specs Ray get scouted by the possible Shield move. Defensive mons really dislike it as it can spread burns, chip with infest, knock off items, set up rocks, and taunt. Its solid speed tier allows it to outspeed most defensive mons and Taunt on them, combined with removing lefties, burn damage, and infest damage as well as the solid chip of Scald is super annoying for defensive mons. Magic Bouncers have a better match up but they dislike burns and their Helmet/Lefties removed as well as the fact that most defensive mons fail to threaten Fini enough thanks to its amazing typing and decent bulk. Credits to Highlighter to the set below (I also seen other people use this on ladder).
Tapu Fini @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
IDK Nature
- Scald
- Infestation
- Knock Off / Stealth Rock / Taunt
- King's Shield / Stealth Rock / Taunt
IMO, Shed really enjoys the current metagame trends. The most notable is the high popularity of Prankster Giratina, which typically wants Sap as the filler move, which makes it a Ghost that is Shed bait, giving it free opportunities to setup Rocks and Pivot. The low usage of Bounce Ghosts also means that Shed has a pretty easy time getting free Rocks (Bounce Tina is not as common, Aegi is an unmon, Bounce Gar is an unset, other ghosts are like never seen). Moldy Pursuit is also like non-existent rn (Moldy Gar is rare in general and Moldy Darks aren't used as often in favour of more defensive abilities or offensive abilities like Adapt and TC). Sand TTar is also rarely seen (see usage at around 6%).
Shed also really limits teambuilding and is one of the biggest headaches IMO. Since shed almost mandates a ghost, the ghost on a team should have a move to threaten shed, except on mons like Prank Tina fitting a move to threaten shed is very difficult, as if you forgo Sap for Wisp you can no longer check physical wallbreakers that deal over 66%, and if the ghost cannot threaten shed properly the rest of the team has to pressure shed very hard (status moves and moldy moves or like idk moldy hazards?) which gives up other stuff like coverage and other utility moves or a more useful ability. Ghosts are also not trappable, which means Imposter generally can come in for free, so you have to have a strong improof all the while building a strong defensive core. This is very important as typical BH Balance teams have 2 offensive mons 3 defensive mons and imposter or another defensive mon, 2 offensive mons are needed to reduce the likelihood of being hard walled by the opposing team, Imposter is just really good, and then you are left with a 3 mon defensive core which is difficult to account for every threat in the metagame when you also have to improof your wack offensive mons. When you are forced to run a Ghost and then add an improof to that and then a possible improof to the improof unless your improof is an offensive mon (PH Xerneas improofing Prank Tina is the common example) you are missing out on some big threats. You could alleviate this issue by replacing Imposter with another defensive mon but not having Imposter is pretty annoying considering how much it brings. If you don't want to be restricted like this you could use a self-improof Ghost which is either PH with shield as pseudo-recovery (cannot switch into too many hits repeatedly == less defensive utility == basically adds pressure to the other defensive mons), offensive Ghost (cannot switch in to shed's U-turn too many times despite resistance due to hazards, limited to basically MGar), or running your own Shed.
Shed's defensive utility is also huge, as there are many popular wallbreakers out there that just cannot touch shed (Mixed -ates, SF MMY) as well as the fact that a lot of defensive mons can't touch it either (RegenVests, common Bouncers, Unaware stuff, Prankster) gives it a lot of opportunities to gain momentum or to set hazards. Its ability to improof powerful attackers while keeping the momentum by not needing to recover is also a huge boon compared to using like FC Chansey for SF MMY. Above all of this it allows you to run usually imposter bait mons that require a lot of effort to improof because it does such a great job at pressuring the imposter.
This could just be me bad at dealing with shed or overexaggerating but I think this is an interesting topic to bring up regardless and would like to hear other people's opinions on this.
There are some other UR mons that I think probably deserve being ranked but I haven't used/faced the mon much to nominate them and will leave them to others (Sl42).
 

Ren

i swore lips were made for lies
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Any form of Arceus can be used; however it will remain Normal-type unless it keeps the required plate and Multitype
  • This is currently not true for the imposter i.e. if you are Arceus-Ice type, the Arceus will be Normal-Type while the Imposter will be Ice-Type
This was patched and should be removed or amended.
The only move hard-coded for a specific Pokemon, Hyperspace Fury, may only work on Hoopa-Unbound or its Imposter
Dark Void is hard-coded for Darkrai. You should add that unless you mean to keep it to just meta relevant stuff.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
And even after a Shell Smash it cannot break through common mons such as Kyogre, Chansey, and RegenVest Dialga and Yveltal (basically every RegenVest not weak to its STABs with decent offensive pressure).
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre-Primal: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Dialga: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 135-159 (19.1 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Yveltal: 127-151 (27.8 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
I agree that Palkia is unable to break these Pokemon 1v1, but if they're forced to constantly switch into it over the course of the game, it can wear them down with Steam Eruption burns and potentially sweep in the end. Additionally, Palkia pairs well with Spikes Pixilate Mega Diancie, which can help break these Pokemon while forcing in those it sets up on like Ho-Oh and Steel-types like Mega Steelix. Life Orb and Secret Sword as the last move on Palkia is also an option, as it can OHKO Dialga and 2HKO Chansey and RegenVest Primal Kyogre at +2.
Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 205-244 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Double it for Smash damage

252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 250-294 (61.8 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unaware Yveltal:
252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Yveltal: 230-270 (50.4 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Palkia Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Yveltal: 277-328 (60.7 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Its secondary typing isn't doing it much favours as while Dragon STAB is cool and all taking 2x more from Core isn't helpful.
Palkia's entire niche revolves around having practically unresisted STABs, and the ability to hit Imposter hard, which is something Primal Kyogre lacks. The Core Enforcer weakness is unfortunate, but this only really matters against RegenVest Primal Kyogre, seeing how Palkia can easily force out Core Enforcer Giratina and Zygarde-C.
And Zekrom, Mega Aerodactyl, and Ferrothorn are by no means C material lmao.
Gurpreet Patel (Sent you a Friend Request)
Agreed that Ferrothorn should be lowered.

As for Palkia, he also told me that another benefit is how it’s water STAB can burn Shedinja, which counters Zekrom, as Shedinja teams are on the rise.
Plus having a unique double Water and Fire resist can also allow it to handle V-Create on Blaziken, and Kyogre STAB moves.

SL42 also supports my point on Dazzling basically agreeing that Palkia can lure in and KO priority users in the mid game thanks to its ability to deter prankster, allowing for sweepers such as Contrary Sceptile-Mega to clean up later on.

Lastly,
No matter how much you change its ability Palkia is still going to be checked by the same mons (unless you use super wack stuff like SF Bolt Strike in which case its just outclassed).
Although Palkia will always struggle against RegenVest Primal Kyogre and other specific Pokemon, the Dazzling set carves out a niche for itself by luring in priority users like Triage Mega Rayquaza and Pixilate Mega Diancie so that a teammate, like Contrary Mega Sceptile, can sweep after they have been eliminated. It does this better than other Pokemon because of its useful typing, which deters many walls from coming in on it.
———-
This was patched and should be removed or amended.

Dark Void is hard-coded for Darkrai. You should add that unless you mean to keep it to just meta relevant stuff.
Oh, you posted.
I think they should mention that you can get a Revelation Dance on Arceus to match the form you have, even though Arceus is Normal. So if you have a Ghost Form of Arceus without Multitype, your Arceus can hit Normalize Gengar while being a Normal type. This allows it to bypass Normalize Entrain Gengar.

I am not sure how Imposter handles Revelation Dance. This matters because you may want your Arceus to be a Dark or Ground Revelation Dance, rather than Ghost- as it will hit more Pokémon. It could also copy Fighting to out damage Secret Sword/Aura Sphere while hitting Imposter harder.

If Imposter only has a Normal Revelation Dance then you may as well use Dark, Fighting, or Ground, as Dark and Ground still handle Gengar, and Aegislash, while Fighting would handle Tyranitar-Mega, and Steels that resist its STAB. Fighting would hit Soundproof Imposter sets as well.

Whereas if it copies your Revelation Dance Type, then your Arceus will prefer Ghost to stay immune.

Basically Revelation Dance is based on your form, not your type- when it comes to Arceus.

E4 Flint should the Revelation Dance piece be mentioned in the OP?
 
Last edited:
Mega Mewtwo x to s rank

I am nominating this Pokemon to s rank thanks to the discovery of some new (old) sets it can run. Besides the standards like choice band adapt/tc, contrary, Shell Smash, and Bellyburden, another set on the rise is Refrigerate. Refrigerate sets are capable of easily steaming past Giratina and Zygarde-C while still being able to hit most of their other targets decently hard. The set is

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Photon Guiser

Of the viable defensive mons you could run, Aegislash, specially defensive Xerneas (with Poison Heal recovery), Crescelia, Kyogre-p with Fur Coat and Mega Slowbro are the only counters available, as everything else gets 2hKOed on the switch. If you put a Spike or Stealth Rock up, you can cross off Xerneas from that list.
252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 81.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 74-87 (22.8 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Specially defensive xerneas (which no one runs): 252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xerneas: 200-236 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Standard Xerneas: 252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Xerneas: 220-259 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro-Mega: 114-134 (29 - 34%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock


On its own, that's probably fine. But when you add on just one more mon, all of those counters, except Fur Coat Kyogre, are trapped and KOed with no trouble ...

Tyranitar-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Diamond Storm / Sunsteel Strike
- Sucker Punch / U-Turn

Yep, a quick double into Tyranitar, followed by a 50 50 that usually won't be too costly to lose once or twice since Tyranitar can eat U-turns easily enough, and the MMX counter is removed from the game. In response to this, I've seen people running King's Shield on their MMX check so that Tyranitar can't trap it. For an extra layer of punishment against MMX counters, you can run one of Mega Gengar's wallbreaking sets, which can easily break through everything barring Kyogre with Moongeist Beam (Kyogre won't be happy about Sludge Bomb poison though).

Offensively, you can use something like Triage mega Rayquaza or a Dazzle Smash mon with a sash to check the MMX set. Pixilate Mega Diancie can force it out if it runs Fake Out, and has more than about 45% health (the roll is 40.7-48%). Those mons are usually frail and are forced out by a Prankster Haze user or Imposter, which is quite easy to fit on to any archetype.

It's not self-imposterproof, but that shouldn't worry you too much; just run one of the listed checks as well, and you're good to go. And the Imposter will take 15 to 33% switching in depending on what move you clicked, which will easily wear it down during the course of a battle.

Because it can so easily break through its checks with a little help that you can easily fit, no recoil, a resistance to stealth rock, and the ability to still change its moves, I see no reason why MMX is not up in the s ranks thanks to just that one set. Today's standard defensive cores simply lose, and many offensive mons too (be aware you are slower than most base 130's when running Mild).

Replays of the core working:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-912054575 Opponent's team is extremely weak to the MMX +Ttar core
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-912056233 Opponent cannot avoid a Scarf Mega Gengar sweep once MMX eliminates his Prankster Giratina.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-911318173 A close game. Opponent wisely keeps his MMY, the only real check to the team's core, alive, and I assume it also has a Focus Sash. Unfortunately for him, Refrigerate MMX is running Extreme Speed, and it is not running Dazzling. Without it, I would have lost the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-911455428 Breaking through a popular stall team

But I said new sets, and there's only one up there ...

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Spectral Thief / Photon Guiser
- Extreme Speed
- Drain Punch / Close Combat

This is definitely the less reliable of the two Refrigerate sets available, but it's sill plenty powerful. You can easily beat standard checks to the other set, such as Flash Fire Aegislash and Mega Slowbro and Fur Coat Kyogre, with it. drain Punch can easily recover you back up so that you can Belly Drum again (don't count on it though). The main annoyance you'll see is how to Improof it, but if you run Spectral Thief you can use Shedinja, and if you run Photon Guiser you can use Prankster Aegislash or Prankster Mega Slowbro. This set is much much newer than the older one so I don't have any replays, but trust me it's a great surprise.

Thanks to Mickle314 for building the team and discussing ideas for the core with me.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Mega Mewtwo x to s rank

I am nominating this Pokemon to s rank thanks to the discovery of some new (old) sets it can run. Besides the standards like choice band adapt/tc, contrary, Shell Smash, and Bellyburden, another set on the rise is Refrigerate. Refrigerate sets are capable of easily steaming past Giratina and Zygarde-C while still being able to hit most of their other targets decently hard. The set is

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Boomburst
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Photon Guiser

Of the viable defensive mons you could run, Aegislash, specially defensive Xerneas (with Poison Heal recovery), Crescelia, Kyogre-p with Fur Coat and Mega Slowbro are the only counters available, as everything else gets 2hKOed on the switch. If you put a Spike or Stealth Rock up, you can cross off Xerneas from that list.
252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 164-194 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Fur Coat Kyogre-Primal: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 81.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 74-87 (22.8 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Specially defensive xerneas (which no one runs): 252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xerneas: 200-236 (43.8 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Standard Xerneas: 252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Xerneas: 220-259 (48.2 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro-Mega: 114-134 (29 - 34%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock


On its own, that's probably fine. But when you add on just one more mon, all of those counters, except Fur Coat Kyogre, are trapped and KOed with no trouble ...

Tyranitar-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Diamond Storm / Sunsteel Strike
- Sucker Punch / U-Turn

Yep, a quick double into Tyranitar, followed by a 50 50 that usually won't be too costly to lose once or twice since Tyranitar can eat U-turns easily enough, and the MMX counter is removed from the game. In response to this, I've seen people running King's Shield on their MMX check so that Tyranitar can't trap it. For an extra layer of punishment against MMX counters, you can run one of Mega Gengar's wallbreaking sets, which can easily break through everything barring Kyogre with Moongeist Beam (Kyogre won't be happy about Sludge Bomb poison though).

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Icicle Plate
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Spectral Thief / Photon Guiser
- Extreme Speed
- Drain Punch / Close Combat

This is definitely the less reliable of the two Refrigerate sets available, but it's sill plenty powerful. You can easily beat standard checks to the other set, such as Flash Fire Aegislash and Mega Slowbro and Fur Coat Kyogre, with it. drain Punch can easily recover you back up so that you can Belly Drum again (don't count on it though). The main annoyance you'll see is how to Improof it, but if you run Spectral Thief you can use Shedinja, and if you run Photon Guiser you can use Prankster Aegislash or Prankster Mega Slowbro. This set is much much newer than the older one so I don't have any replays, but trust me it's a great surprise.

Thanks to Mickle314 for building the team and discussing ideas for the core with me.
Kyogre-Primal doesn’t check Refrigerate MMX as Photon Geyser bypasses Fur Coat on the first set...
Calc
I assume a non-Relaxed Nature since your calculations didn’t use +Def.

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO

Even if you had Leftovers, minor chip damage from Stealth Rocks keeps it a 2HKO

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With a positive Relaxed nature, you can survive at a 3HKO. But only if at near perfect HP.

252 Atk Mewtwo-Mega-X Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 169-199 (41.8 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Just replace Kyogre-Primal with Darmanitan-Z, as it’s resistance to Photon Geyser cancels out the ability bypass, and has enough SpD to not feel threatened by Boomburst.

252 SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darmanitan-Z: 87-102 (21 - 24.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Knowing Boomburst does more than Photon due to a higher base power, Darmanitan-Z shrugs off all of the physical moves thanks to Fur Coat.

I also posted about Belly Drum Refrigerate MMX just a couple of weeks ago in the Creative and Underrated Sets thread...

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/creative-and-underrated-sets.3592203/page-12#post-8118815

I think it’s a bit risky to have Icicle Plate on your Set since with Belly Drum, your only recovery is Drain Punch which means that if your set is forced out (by say Scarf Imposter), then you literally can’t Belly Drum again if you suffer minor chip damage...

I think you should use Sitrus Berry like mine does. It can bluff Unburden, and encourage Prankster Zygarde and Giratina to switch in, hoping to Prankster Haze/Topsy Turvey, only to be outsped by Extreme Speed for the 1HKO.

Sitrus Berry, just as importantly, enables a second Belly Drum.

I used the Photon and Close Combat options, leaving the only true Imposter check to be Unaware Sableye-Mega - with STAB Spectral Thief, it will KO Eviolite Chansey and can Baton Pass it’s boosts as a slow pivot. This can also be a quick way to send MMX in again without needing a Belly Drum, and is the only option that can serve as a check and let you keep Photon Geyser on MMX.

+6 252 Atk Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Sableye-Mega: 86-102 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Sableye-Mega can survive just fine even under Hazards, and has a 99.7% of it being a 4HKO under Stealth Rocks. And a 2.8% of it being a 5HKO without Stealth Rocks-

+6 252 Atk Refrigerate Mewtwo-Mega-X Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Sableye-Mega: 86-102 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I also give it Foul Play so it can check PHeal Slaking/Regigigas as it is immune to Facade and they are immune to Spectral Thief.

Calcs-
While holding Leftovers-
252+ Atk Slaking Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 84-99 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Without
252+ Atk Slaking Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 56-67 (18.4 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

Foul Play before they use Shift Gear-
252 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 157-186 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 32.7% chance to 4HKO after Poison Heal

252 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 148-175 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Poison Heal
Overall, I would just give Sableye-Mega Spectral, Foul Play, Recover, Baton Pass.
This allows it to serve as a slow pivot, and check some set up sweepers... regardless of their immunity to Spectral Thief.

EDIT-
Before someone tells me that Foul Play doesn’t consider stat boosts bc of Unaware... you are wrong- Foul Play matches all opposing +Atk stat boosts and makes it your own Atk, while ignoring your foe’s Defenses!
So if your opponent has Diamond Storm and Shift Gear on Tyranitar-Mega, your Foul Play bypasses all Defense Boosts (due to Unaware), and gains it’s Attack stat Boosts (Foul Play) when it hits.

Based on the date and Incinaroar used in this evidence video, this is USUM, so the mechanics are up to date:
Lastly, Foul Play ignores the Foe’s Ability, Burn status, and Item so whether that Tyranitar-Mega holds a Flame Orb and the ability Guts, or Choice Band and Hustle only your own items, ability and Burn status are considered for Foul Play.
 
Last edited:
I think Ferrothorn's viability goes hand in hand with Regigigas' viability, which imo, has plummeted.

I used to be that you had to have a hard counter to PH Regigigas or you would be threatened by an end-game countersweep. I have not found this to be true anymore with sleep clause. Having a few good checks on my teams such as Diancie, MMX, Regenvest Dialga, Zygarde and Steel types means I've managed to consistently beat Regigigas without ever actually preparing for it.
That and the fact that one of Regigigas' big selling point was his ability to come in on and force out most other PH setup mons such as Xerneas or Ogre. Setup Ogre is basically a non-set now cause it requires so much support to do anything, while Xern tends to run stuff like spikes and whatnot which means it's useful regardless of getting walled by Gigas.

So yeah Ferrothorn was good at walling Ogre and Gigas and neither are as relevant now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I appreciate Chessking highlighting how few Ghost types there actually are in BH. Honestly picking a shed switching usually means using Giratina or using Gengar. And the best Gengar sets by far now and adapt sets, moldy pursuit gar just requires too much support to do anything in shedless matchups.
Shed's just hella good rn.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Also for Fini it's worth mentioning that it can tank Draco + V-create mixed contra sets which is pretty dope (Mega Audino can get 2HKOd by Rayquaza's V-Create and it doesn't like Sunsteel strike either).

Also Aero feels like its outclassed by Beedril imo idk why it's in a higher rank. If I need a mon faster than MMY I would say Phero and Bee both provide more utility than Aero does.
 
I think Ferrothorn's viability goes hand in hand with Regigigas' viability, which imo, has plummeted.


So yeah Ferrothorn was good at walling Ogre and Gigas and neither are as relevant now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Also Aero feels like its outclassed by Beedril imo idk why it's in a higher rank. If I need a mon faster than MMY I would say Phero and Bee both provide more utility than Aero does.

Can likely agree on Ferro. Its niche of being naturally spore immune has diminished as well.


Aero, I assume it because it has better typing for higher rank. Diamond Storm/Magic Guard Head Smash hits a number of things for a bunch of damage, like Ray and Yveltal and isn't resisted by a whole lot outside of Steel types and Garchomp. Flying-STAB is icing on the cake that makes it only really walled by Steels with its STABs, also can benefit from some preferred abilities like Magic Guard, also makes it less vulnerable to hazards, and also also lets it actually manually switch-in on a few attacks. Aero also benefits from Sand, but you're probably not taking it for that.
 

anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I agree that Beedrill should be put above Aerodactyl - Beedrill has a more abuseable typing in its Bug-type giving STAB to a very spammable U-Turn and Poison-type beating Fairies like Audino-Mega and Xerneas (also providing a situational switchin to Fairy attacks). While Rock-type gives STAB to Head Smash, it also forces Aerodactyl to use Magic Guard for it or take a million from recoil.

Magic Guard Aerodactyl-Mega works okay against offensive mons, but is pretty bad against walls:

252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 208-246 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl-Mega Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 165-196 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 153-183 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 208-246 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO
(most use prankster, fur coat, regenerator, or poison heal)

Most notably, Aerodactyl-Mega is a physical attacker that outspeeds MMY but can't OHKO it without Tough Claws and Band, making it pretty inferior to Beedrill-Mega and Pheromosa:
252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl-Mega Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 324-382 (77.8 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 378-446 (90.8 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 354-416 (85 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Basically, Aerodactyl-Mega is a decent anti-offense tool and okay wallbreaker that in my opinion is eclipsed by Beedrill-Mega, since Beedrill does the same thing but helps teams earn a lot of momentum.
 

MAMP

MAMP!
aero is really being undersold here. first of all, magic guard is a trash booty set, not really relevant. aero's good set is cb tough claws with like ascent/uturn/coverage for steels/filler (ice hammer, sunsteel, trick). compared to mosa and bee, aero is significantly bulkier and has a better defensive typing, which notably lets it check +3 triage mray and if needed switch into random hits far better — aero can take a hit from mmy or ray in a pinch or switch into a core or spectral far more easily. the big money is that aero threatens an ohko on mmx and gengar with its stab; neither bee or mosa ohkos mmx without running nonsense sets, and to take out gar they have to lock into weak shit like spectral. flying is a far more spammable type than any of bug, poison, or fighting, making aero a more effective wallbreaker that generally requires less prediction; ascent 2hkos tina, which really messes with a lot of balance builds. its u-turn is a bit weaker, so it's harder to do that really hot play where you force out mmy with u-turn and get momentum on their tina or xern or whatever, but that feels like a kinda minor point to me. the big weakness of aero is that it can't threaten imposter that well, but compared to bee and mosa i think its extra bulk and flying resist make it generally a better anti-offense mon, and it has a much easier time than them breaking through common defensive cores. pretty team dependent overall tho, aero and bee/mosa require different support and often serve different roles. not sure directly comparing them is really helpful tbh

as for where it should be ranked? who tf knows, letters dont mean anything and viability rankings were a mistake. it's definitely not 'just eclipsed' by the bee tho
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
One thing to note is, depending on how the suspect voting goes, Sceptile-Mega’s usage will plummet if it loses Contrary.
So unless a new set is discovered, as I doubt it’s own current list of sets will keep it in the position it is currently in, it needs to drop; Contrary was it’s main saving grace.
Although, I could still see Dazzling sets serving a purpose for Spore, and anti-Kyogre-Primal Coverage (plus it checks -ate Diancie-Mega with Seed Flare). Although one could argue Tough Claws Beedrill with Bolt Strike can handle Kyogre-Primal, and is also able to pull off a Dazzling Set with Choice Band and KO Diancie with Sunsteel.

MMY will lose some usage as well as Contrary was its most potent set. It will still be highly ranked, but losing the most powerful of offensive sets is a hit to anything that used it, even if it didn’t depend on it like Sceptile-Mega did.

Further, I could see niche Pokémon like Necrozma-Ultra losing some usage as Contrary made it relevant for its 2-in-1 Draco Meteor + Psycho Boost / Photon Geyser STAB coverage.

My predictions regarding if Contrary gets banned:

I think the bigger change, however, is how much Unaware and Prankster Haze will rise as they now have an easier time handling all sweepers. For example, now Prankster Sap Strength Giratina and any Unaware Sap Strength user can avoid worrying about boosting Contrary MMX and it’s Photon Geyser.

Moldy Moves will still plague Unaware users, like Sunsteel Strike vs Unaware Audino-Mega, but at least they won’t be a guaranteed threat when we see how common a defensive check Prankster and Unaware will be: I.e. Registeel takes nothing from Sunsteel, and Photon Geyser. From here, I could see more Flash Fire and Magic Bounce variants rising, as well as more Steels in general like Flash Fire Aegislash and Dusk-Mane, thanks to its ability to check MMX, which will be less likely to carry Moongeist Beam.

The other thing that will rise is the use of other types of sweeping such as Sheer Force MMY, which undermines the commonality of Set-up checks. Unburden and (Simple) Smash sets will drop, however, as counterplay for setups will be more omnipresent, and instead Choice users like Specs Aerilate Ray, etc. will go up in usage, thus Scarf Imposter will rise again as there will be less Imposterproof sweeping (like Unburden) to deter it.
———-
Side note on Imposter mechanics—
Yeah just tested extensively with ScarfWynaut and if you imposter a groudon with a red orb imposter nothing much happens regardless of species. If you Imposter a Pokémon while you are holding the imposters own mega stone after transforming it can mega into the Imposters mega form getting it's stats, ability and typing but keeping the moveset you copied.
Most interestingly if you have an imposter Rayquaza that knows dragon ascent before impostering, then after transforming it can mega into a Mega Rayquaza, however if the imposter Rayquaza doesn't know dragon ascent but the thing it copied did it still can't mega.

Further testing shows if the Imposter holds a z-crystal as long as the appropriate move is in the copied moveset it can use it, including signature moves such as ss7ss.

For other form changes: an imposter in the form of meloetta never changes form, it stays as what it copied; an imposter of Darmanitan also never changes form even if you get a zen mode darmanitan and give it transform; an impostered aegislash also doesn't change form.
just to add, a transformed pokemon can use the exclusive z move of its transformed state, but not one of its original form. I think this is to say exclusive z's check the user's current form like hyperspace fury but not base species.
I found this old set of data and wanted to consider if you consider Imposter on Pokémon that gains Mold Breaker as it Megas.

For example, let’s consider Gyarados Imposters Shell Smash Dusk-Mane with Flash Fire. It can Mega Evolve to remove its Steel and Psychic Typing to gain a resistance to Power Trip, Sunsteel Strike, and Photon Geyser.

Through Mold Breaker, it can use Power Trip not only break Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, but also Unaware and Fur Coat users. It also doesn’t need Flash Fire due to its typing.

The trick is to give Gyarados moves that will be useful after it Mega Evolves, (such as Stealth Rocks) for when it switches out and back in again.

Now, since you copy the moveset of whatever you imposter even after you Mega (until you switch out), you can pretty much always make use of Mold Breaker because it aids all of your moves, mm will either help against Magic Bounce or some other specific ability like Sturdy Shedinja or Fur Coat.

I assume this Transform feature can also be used with the Ultranecrozium-Z because it would gain the moveset of whatever Pokémon you Transform into but then have Necrozma-Ultra’s Speed Tier, which means you can outspeed most Pokemon without resorting to the Choice Scarf. Further, since Necrozma-Ultra has strong and equally powerful offenses, and a helpful Nueroforce ability, it can be a check to sweepers.
Plus, as it shows that Ditto used a Z-move, Necrozma-Ultra can take advantage of Photon Geyser, and use Light That Burns the Sky as many Pokémon carry Photon Geyser (Dusk-Mane, MMX, MMY, Etc.) letting you even Signature Z-move off of their moveset- since Ultra transforming makes you the species you were assigned by your Item.

The unique thing about these is that you get 2 movesets, your opponent’s movepool until you Mega and then switch out, and then when you switch back in (having gotten rid of your Imposter ability), your own movepool that can completely compliment the original Ability for that form.

TLDR- are there any good Imposter Base form uses we can have?

Also I forgot to mention that these quotes above mentioned Rayquaza can just have Dragon Ascent and lose the move when it Imposters, but still be able to Mega Evolve, this means that Rayquaza can also gain a new Speed Tier when it Megas and can do so while holding any item like Scarf. Why does this matter? Because most Pokémon that it would copy don’t have 180 Atk and 180 SpA, and Rayquaza regaining its Status. Typing, and Ability could allow for it to be an awesome Choice Scarfer. Or Life Orb User.
 
Last edited:

cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
ultra necrozma to b-

a few things have changed in ultra's favor (specs set specifically), and i think c is too low for it at this point. let me explain here:

the most notable metagame shift was the decline of regenvest users. people are starting to realize how annoying it can be for eviolite imposter to get easy recovery while being difficult to force out. this is important because thanks to their passive recovery, regenvest users are easily the toughest thing for ultra to break through due to their ability to generate momentum from ultra. compare this to something like ff registeel, which technically walls ultra but is forced to recover allowing him to go into someone else. because of this ultra + eviolite imposter is also super good

additionally, ho-oh has experienced an increase in popularity and is overall much easier to slap on teams. ultra really appreciates having this mon to easily counter pixilate diancie, one of the most threatening things that forces it out. it is also really good at taking advantage of opposing ho-oh thanks to psystrike.

overall i would say that a lot of teams simply don't have consistent switchins to ultra, and given how relatively simple it is to imposter-proof, i would say that this is at least on the level of kyurem w.

guzzlord to d

i think you guys are still not understanding what makes this mon good so it's time to make another case for my boy.

the best set is regenvest. this might seem weird because of how i just said regenvest is bad, but guzzlord has important traits that allow it to remain good.

by far the most important of these traits is its typing. yeah, all its resistances are cool, but those weaknesses really hold it back...or do they? combined with its low defense stats and high hp, guzzlord's debilitating weaknesses can actually be a blessing in disguise: they allow imposter users to be forced out much more easily.

have you ever tried to low kick imposter as regenvest dialga with mmx? it doesn't end well. but imposter as guzzlord is easy to force out, even with eviolite:

252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Guzzlord: 1080-1272 (153.4 - 180.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Xerneas Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Guzzlord: 484-576 (68.7 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Rayquaza-Mega Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Guzzlord: 570-672 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Mewtwo-Mega-X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252 Def Guzzlord: 602-710 (85.5 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

this allows you to use multiple different attackers while still not having to be concerned about imposter. guzzlord itself can put up a fight against imposter by hitting it with super effective uturn or dealing enough with core (26.7 - 31.8%) to negate regenerator.

also worth noting, of course, is guzzlord's ability to slow pivot on a lot of stuff. slowbro is forced out by revdance, and no defensive mon can meaningfully chip down guzzlord even with core.

something i see less ppl talk about is how gira can be harder to fit on teams nowadays. with dark types in general getting worse (yveltal is still decent, but not without its share of flaws, and ttar/gyara are really not good), many teams are unable to fit gira because they're hard pressed for gar answers. guzzlord provides this while also offering a lot of giratina's beneficial resistances, and i've found myself using it on more and more teams recently. it's not a super good mon, but not even putting it in d rank really undersells it in my opinion. thanks for reading lads.
 
Some noms:

Mega Mewtwo Y S -> A+

MMY loses Contrary, leaving only Sheer Force as a top tier set. This makes it a lot more comparable to Mega Diancie, who has a top tier set in Pixilate and a decent secondary set in Magic Guard. Sheer Force MMY is still a phenomenal breaker but when compared to Pixi Diancie it a) is a lot harder to improof b) doesn’t provide powerful priority c) doesn’t force out stuff like healthy tina which makes it not that much better. It’s secondary sets like Tinted Lens, Magic Guard, and No Guard, while numerous, are really not as strong as MG Diancie. When compared to Ray, who has Specs Aerilate, Triage, and Band TC all being very powerful sets, it is clear that MMY fits better with the A+ mons.


Primal Kyogre A+ -> A

Primal Kyogre is in an awkward spot in the meta rn where it doesn’t really check much or have a really strong set. RegenVest is mega bait for imposter and hard to improof, and there’s not a lot it checks either apart from like Gengar. Unaware also doesn’t check much as general setup special attackers are rare or can break through apart from again Gengar. Specs set is an interesting option but struggled against Imposter. This leaves Poison Heal, which is pretty solid but faces competition from Xerneas, and Magic Bounce, which is a decent utility option. All of this makes it fit better in A than A+.


Regigigas + Slaking A- -> B+ or lower

When was the last time this has been used in top level games. Like it can still sweep unprepared teams but when half the teams run Prank Tina it’s really difficult to actually do something.


Arceus B -> B-

Loses its niche in being a Contrary check so now the Unaware set is bad as well. Has like no good sets now.


Mega Sceptile B- -> C or D

Contrary was like it’s only set, other sets are very difficult to justify.

Agree with sls noms (including unecro as Adapt is still very strong) and may do some lower tier noms soon
 

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Arceus B -> B-

Loses its niche in being a Contrary check so now the Unaware set is bad as well. Has like no good sets now.
I'm pretty sure the discussion on Arceus recently ended with it being a shaky check to Contrary anyway. It barely handled non Life Orb MMY Psycho Boost with Leftovers and could even fall to Super Power Mega Rayquaza if it wasn't healthy. Yeah it could check Mega Sceptile well but it also had to be awake to do so.

Unaware Arceus is still effective at checking what it checked best; PH Xern, Triage Mega Ray, some Normalize Gengars, and other various setup mons without SE coverage.
Mega Sceptile B- -> C or D

Contrary was like it’s only set, other sets are very difficult to justify.
The rest of your noms are so slight, like A+ to A, that it would make them easier to get behind with decent reasoning. But you might as well have just blacklisted Mega Sceptile without even giving it a chance to show what other sets it has. I think it probably will drop, but that shouldn't happen until we see an actual reason for it.

Mega Sceptile still has other options like Dazzling / Queenly Majesty as an offensive -ate check, the priority weak Soundproof sweeper, and Sheer Force that can nail Imposter with Ice Beam. More might come to light now that its main set is gone.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I'm pretty sure the discussion on Arceus recently ended with it being a shaky check to Contrary anyway. It barely handled non Life Orb MMY Psycho Boost with Leftovers and could even fall to Super Power Mega Rayquaza if it wasn't healthy. Yeah it could check Mega Sceptile well but it also had to be awake to do so.

Unaware Arceus is still effective at checking what it checked best; PH Xern, Triage Mega Ray, some Normalize Gengars, and other various setup mons without SE coverage.

The rest of your noms are so slight, like A+ to A, that it would make them easier to get behind with decent reasoning. But you might as well have just blacklisted Mega Sceptile without even giving it a chance to show what other sets it has. I think it probably will drop, but that shouldn't happen until we see an actual reason for it.

Mega Sceptile still has other options like Dazzling / Queenly Majesty as an offensive -ate check, the priority weak Soundproof sweeper, and Sheer Force that can nail Imposter with Ice Beam. More might come to light now that its main set is gone.
I think another Sceptile-Mega set might be Mold Breaker, as it allows it to break Magic Bounce to enable it to serve its main niche as Spore user, take advantage of Clanging Scales in the face of Soundproof, and enable a sweeping setup move in Tail Glow, which pairs well with Spore.

Mold Breaker also removes the necessity to use Moongeist Beam for coverage for Shedinja, and makes the most of Tail Glow when facing Unaware.

I think Sheer Force on MMY might outclass the merit Sceptile-Mega brings, as the only real advantage is 1HKOing Tyranitar-Mega with Seed Flare, as Bolt Strike on MMY can already handle Kyogre-Primal. Even SF LO Psychic can threaten Diancie-Mega.

For Soundproof, I see it is Imposterproof but that relies on a Z-Move, and I think similar to my Slaking Set, Z-moves can be risky if that is the only way of handling Imposter. It would just be better to pick a bulkier Dragon with Judgment Plate at that point.

The last set I could see completely new added to its repertoire would be Tinted Lens with Specs, using Draco, Seed Flare, Moongeist, and a Filler coverage move. Or Life Orb, and Tail Glow and/or Spore for power.

The reasoning being that it’s Speed and Specs would be just powerful enough to make a dent, but I think at that point the case could be made for Necrozma-Ultra whom has high Speed but more importantly a strong SpA and a fall back Atk for Damage (I.e. can use V-Create for another high powered move).

Sceptile doesn’t seem to have enough power in its own right, but I could see Tail Glow and Mold Breaker, or even Tail Glow and Tinted Lens working.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top